NationStates Jolt Archive

yes or no?

How many people have voted?

Can we answer in a yes or no? What makes a spiritual Christ killer? What do we think that Christ stands for that conservative Christians are against? Would Christians kill him if he were alive today? How have conservative Christians gone wrong. In our opinions what is it about the conservative Christians that would kill Christ? I am interested in opinions. :)

Most likely.

How many people have voted?
only 3--2 for and 1 against

MKULTRA, can you back up your statement about Christ killers? I feel I may agree with you on some points. So please elucidate...

Can we answer in a yes or no? What makes a spiritual Christ killer? What do we think that Christ stands for that conservative Christians are against? Would Christians kill him if he were alive today? How have conservative Christians gone wrong. In our opinions what is it about the conservative Christians that would kill Christ? I am interested in opinions. :)
1.yes 2.someone who perverts spiritual teachings for the devil. 3.Jesus Christ was the first recorded liberal in history that we know of. 4.most definitely-the nature of the pharissee is unchanged. 5. theyve gone wrong while trying to mask their inner shameful disfunctions and sexual tensions behind of false veil of piety. 6.they would kill Christ out of the hate that arises from the way they perverted their own true natures with their life denying dogma

Most likely.
we finally agree on something :cool:

MKULTRA, can you back up your statement about Christ killers? I feel I may agree with you on some points. So please elucidate...
scroll down --if you need further elaboration please specify your area of concerns

on an added note of the danger of these false christians is the way they have allied themselves with anti-peace zionists in Israel in their lustful attempts to fulfill biblical prophecy by starting Armaggedon

"1.yes 2.someone who perverts spiritual teachings for the devil. 3.Jesus Christ was the first recorded liberal in history that we know of. 4.most definitely-the nature of the pharissee is unchanged. 5. theyve gone wrong while trying to mask their inner shameful disfunctions and sexual tensions behind of false veil of piety. 6.they would kill Christ out of the hate that arises from the way they perverted their own true natures with their life denying dogma"


Please back up your statements so that we, and anyone else can have a real debate. #1 is fine, that is your opinion. But how do they pervert spiritual teachings for the devil, why was JC a liberal rather than a conservative? Anyone in power could be concidered a pharissee. What makes you think that conservatives in particular are pharasees? Sexual tensions? Uh, that's going to be hard to pin on a Christ killer. There is nothing to prove that Christ cared about sex. But maybe you can tie it in. What life denying dogma makes them Christ killers? What dogma that they hold goes against Christ?

"1.yes 2.someone who perverts spiritual teachings for the devil. 3.Jesus Christ was the first recorded liberal in history that we know of. 4.most definitely-the nature of the pharissee is unchanged. 5. theyve gone wrong while trying to mask their inner shameful disfunctions and sexual tensions behind of false veil of piety. 6.they would kill Christ out of the hate that arises from the way they perverted their own true natures with their life denying dogma"


Please back up your statements so that we, and anyone else can have a real debate. #1 is fine, that is your opinion. But how do they pervert spiritual teachings for the devil, why was JC a liberal rather than a conservative? Anyone in power could be concidered a pharissee. What makes you think that conservatives in particular are pharasees? Sexual tensions? Uh, that's going to be hard to pin on a Christ killer. There is nothing to prove that Christ cared about sex. But maybe you can tie it in. What life denying dogma makes them Christ killers? What dogma that they hold goes against Christ?
1. they pervert spiritual teachings because they promote dogmatic thinking instead of spirtual thinking.2.Jesus was a liberal cause everything value he promoted fits in to the liberal agenda of radical empathy and helping others and even pacifism.He also berated the rich too. 3. conservatives are more prone to being pharissees since power is their only true god and their promote values of selfishness fear and loathing. 4.sexual tensions always leads to violent outbursts like crucifixions.5. Christ had a homosexual affair with a wealthy youth named Josephus. 6. The dogma these fanatical christians hold is one of denying peoples true natures and falling into the trap of cultic thinking that leads to mass suicide-murder pacts

1. they pervert spiritual teachings because they promote dogmatic thinking instead of spirtual thinking.2.Jesus was a liberal cause everything value he promoted fits in to the liberal agenda of radical empathy and helping others and even pacifism.He also berated the rich too. 3. conservatives are more prone to being pharissees since power is their only true god and their promote values of selfishness fear and loathing. 4.sexual tensions always leads to violent outbursts like crucifixions.5. Christ had a homosexual affair with a wealthy youth named Josephus. 6. The dogma these fanatical christians hold is one of denying peoples true natures and falling into the trap of cultic thinking that leads to mass suicide-murder pacts

Funny, I teach, and if you don't think there are sexual tensions in a high school, you are misinformed. There have not been any crucifixions, I assure you.

Would you care to please back up your assertion that Christ had a homosexual affair with chapter and verse?

That's a very subjective question.

It's true that todays American right wing seems very uncompromising when it comes to accepting peple whose beliefs are different from theirs (ie homosexuals, muslims, europeans). I don't know if they would be that stubborn though. It's also important to point out that our culture has changed, if Jesus were to pop up today, he wouldn't be killed, but negative political advertising would be set out to destroy any credibility he had. He would be crucified in a different, more figurative way.

1. they pervert spiritual teachings because they promote dogmatic thinking instead of spirtual thinking.2.Jesus was a liberal cause everything value he promoted fits in to the liberal agenda of radical empathy and helping others and even pacifism.He also berated the rich too. 3. conservatives are more prone to being pharissees since power is their only true god and their promote values of selfishness fear and loathing. 4.sexual tensions always leads to violent outbursts like crucifixions.5. Christ had a homosexual affair with a wealthy youth named Josephus. 6. The dogma these fanatical christians hold is one of denying peoples true natures and falling into the trap of cultic thinking that leads to mass suicide-murder pacts
1, 2, 3....That is a matter of opinion reached by slanting evident truths so far that they look askew. In other words...you probably believe Jesus was a space alien, too.
4. Sexual tension has never made me or any one I know prone to violent outbursts...unless demolishing a chocolate bar counts.
5. What???!!!! Josephus was a wealthy businessman and follower of Christ. After the the crucifixion, he asked Pilate for Christ's body, took him down from the cross, cleaned him, wrapped him in linen, and buried him in his own personal tomb. (Matthew 27:57-59) You don't think he had a thing for dead bodies do you?
6. Mass suicide-murder pacts? Are you equating Christians with cults like Jim Jones'?

I'm a Jew converted to Catholicism married to a Pentecostal minister. Keep bringing up lies and attributing them to the scriptures, and I'll keep telling the truth and making you look like a fool.

1, 2, 3....That is a matter of opinion reached by slanting evident truths so far that they look askew. In other words...you probably believe Jesus was a space alien, too.
4. Sexual tension has never made me or any one I know prone to violent outbursts...unless demolishing a chocolate bar counts.
5. What???!!!! Josephus was a wealthy businessman and follower of Christ. After the the crucifixion, he asked Pilate for Christ's body, took him down from the cross, cleaned him, wrapped him in linen, and buried him in his own personal tomb. (Matthew 27:57-59) You don't think he had a thing for dead bodies do you?
6. Mass suicide-murder pacts? Are you equating Christians with cults like Jim Jones'?

I'm a Jew converted to Catholicism married to a Pentecostal minister. Keep bringing up lies and attributing them to the scriptures, and I'll keep telling the truth and making you look like a fool.

WTG Zooke! Keep it up and maybe we can knock some sense into this guy. Trust me, my sister has had run ins with this guy and she wins most of the debates too.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

Funny, I teach, and if you don't think there are sexual tensions in a high school, you are misinformed. There have not been any crucifixions, I assure you.

Would you care to please back up your assertion that Christ had a homosexual affair with chapter and verse?
maybe not crucifixions since thats out of style but there are school shootings and sexually driven acts of bullying.
It was in my X-rated bible that my mom threw away in the garbage and I cant find it anywhere now :mad:

1 book, everyone read. . . .Dancing Alone by Frank Shaeffer. . . .Frank is the son of the famous protestant Francis Shaeffer

maybe not crucifixions since thats out of style but there are school shootings and sexually driven acts of bullying.
It was in my X-rated bible that my mom threw away in the garbage and I cant find it anywhere now :mad:

X- rated Bible? You mean someone rewrote the Bible in their own fashion and made it a work of porn? Tell, you what, if you would like, I'll send you my email address so that you can send me your mailing address and I'll send you a brand new King James Bible. We'll even send you Bible studies each week so that you can learn the truth according to God. After reading that, then you will be qualified to have an informed opinion. Right now you are merely spouting trash based on garbage...which is where that porno-bible belongs!

X- rated Bible? You mean someone rewrote the Bible in their own fashion and made it a work of porn? Tell, you what, if you would like, I'll send you my email address so that you can send me your mailing address and I'll send you a brand new King James Bible. We'll even send you Bible studies each week so that you can learn the truth according to God. After reading that, then you will be qualified to have an informed opinion. Right now you are merely spouting trash based on garbage...which is where that porno-bible belongs!
no no--they didnt rewrite the bible at all-they isolated and took out all the porn thats already in there and explained it all-Did you also know Lots daughters got him drunk and raped him?And the bible has a million examples of incestuous unions too

Schaeffer declares that "according to Holy Tradition, it should be possible to write a book that attempts to critique social and political problems of the day and to simultaneously suggest a religious solution [my emphasis] ." He divides the book into two parts. "The Age of False Religion" is a critique of the culture. With sweeping strokes, Schaeffer sets out to prove how virtually all of Western Christianity, Protestant and Roman Catholic, is irredeemably vitiated by theological errors and has accommodated itself to secularism. In "Authentic Orthodox Faith" Schaeffer reviews the history and doctrine of the Orthodox Church, arguing that the Orthodox faith is the only form of Christianity that decisively answers the heresies of secular humanism and modern unbelief.

I have not read the book. How does Schaeffer reconcile Christ's adamant refusal to partake in governmental politics with his (Schaeffer's) belief in reforming politics?

I don't know if they're the spiritual descendents of Christ killers, but I certainly believe that they are not the spiritual descendents of Christ himself.

"no no--they didnt rewrite the bible at all-they isolated and took out all the porn thats already in there and explained it all-Did you also know Lots daughters got him drunk and raped him?And the bible has a million examples of incestuous unions too"


First, you need to get your hands on a real bible. In the old testiment you will find many human frailties. The new testiment is about Jesus and the message he came to tell the Jews. Please read the real bible before you make judgements.

no no--they didnt rewrite the bible at all-they isolated and took out all the porn thats already in there and explained it all-Did you also know Lots daughters got him drunk and raped him?And the bible has a million examples of incestuous unions too

Lot's 2 daughters got him drunk and seduced him in order to continue his lineage as he had no sons and his wife was turned into a pillar of salt. (Genisis 19:30-38)

Yes, there are many references to incest, murder, theft, lust, and other sinful acts. Everyone is a sinner except for Christ and his mother, Mary. The Bible is the story of sinners, too.

Trust me though, that this x-rated bible has not interpreted the Bible truly. To know what the Bible really says, you have to read it yourself...not accept a porn-aimed translation.

"no no--they didnt rewrite the bible at all-they isolated and took out all the porn thats already in there and explained it all-Did you also know Lots daughters got him drunk and raped him?And the bible has a million examples of incestuous unions too"


First, you need to get your hands on a real bible. In the old testiment you will find many human frailties. The new testiment is about Jesus and the message he came to tell the Jews. Please read the real bible before you make judgements.


MKULTRA You also need to know that the first 5 books of the Old Testament is the Jewish Torah. The New Testament is the new covenant between God and people sealed with Christ's blood.

MKULTRA You also need to know that the first 5 books of the Old Testament is the Jewish Torah. The New Testament is the new covenant between God and people sealed with Christ's blood.

Zooke don't bother! He won't listen to reason. Trust me. My sister has tried and has given up hope.

You also need to know that the first 5 books of the Old Testament is the Jewish Torah. The New Testament is the new covenant between God and people sealed with Christ's blood.

Then why bother with the old testament at all? Why pick-and-choose parts from Leviticus?

Then why bother with the old testament at all? Why pick-and-choose parts from Leviticus?
for political reasons--they did the same thing during the days of slavery too when they perverted the Bible to justify that as well-If you wanted to you could use the bible to justify any position because of the way its written and how its been translated

WHAT THE HELL IS THIS THREAD ABOUT?
And who are the Christ-Killers? Jesus WANTED AND NEEDED TO die, and he could not do suicide. Remember: no dead Jesus -> no story.

Tell me, what makes a "porn Bible" any more accurate than a "real Bible". When all's said and done, any holy text -regardless of religion- in nothing more than a collection of stories that were intended to keep people in line before the advent of modern governments and philosophy. True, historical accounts do exist within scripture, but tales of resurrections and such are clearly no more factual than modern science fiction. It is due to the inherent arrogance of religion, the "I'm right, you're wrong because my book says so." mentality that makes any debate over the philosophical impacts of religion on society of totally subjective.

Then why bother with the old testament at all? Why pick-and-choose parts from Leviticus?

Because the Jews do not believe that Jesus was the Messiah. They, and the Muslems, believe that He was one of the prophets. Leviticus is the handbook for the priests and Levites directing their worship and is the commands for holy living for the Hebrews. These instructions give us an insight into God. God wanted the Israelites to be clearly different from the pagan religions. Leviticus is not the entire message from God, but a guide to worship for the Jews.

Tell me, what makes a "porn Bible" any more accurate than a "real Bible". When all's said and done, any holy text -regardless of religion- in nothing more than a collection of stories that were intended to keep people in line before the advent of modern governments and philosophy. True, historical accounts do exist within scripture, but tales of resurrections and such are clearly no more factual than modern science fiction. It is due to the inherent arrogance of religion, the "I'm right, you're wrong because my book says so." mentality that makes any debate over the philosophical impacts of religion on society of totally subjective.

This is rather laughable, is it not?

I especially like the part about the arrogance of mentality...itself stated in an arrogant tone that betrays a very real self-righteous assurance that the religion is a hoax and fraud.

What evidence can someone have that the text of any religion is no more real than the science fiction I occasionally read? I do hope it's something more tangible and less tenuous than the mere lack of empirically observed evidence, because to claim that there is no God, no religion, on the basis of God can't be observed in a laboratory setting is a logical fallacy.

The very nature of a deity, ANY deity (be it God or Zeus or Ra) is by definition above merely empirical, and a lack of evidence does not equate to a disproof of existence! The very nature of a deity, ANY deity, is supernatural, which means that it defies, or at least exceeds, the merely empirical.

Sorry, off topic.
:) Aiera

This is rather laughable, is it not?

I especially like the part about the arrogance of mentality...itself stated in an arrogant tone that betrays a very real self-righteous assurance that the religion is a hoax and fraud.

What evidence can someone have that the text of any religion is no more real than the science fiction I occasionally read? I do hope it's something more tangible and less tenuous than the mere lack of empirically observed evidence, because to claim that there is no God, no religion, on the basis of God can't be observed in a laboratory setting is a logical fallacy.

The very nature of a deity, ANY deity (be it God or Zeus or Ra) is by definition above merely empirical, and a lack of evidence does not equate to a disproof of existence! The very nature of a deity, ANY deity, is supernatural, which means that it defies, or at least exceeds, the merely empirical.

Sorry, off topic.
:) AieraBut then there is still the possibility of learning about a deity's history, and how a respective deity was viewed and worshipped through ancient times. And for El and Yah this contradicts completely what those religions that worship the god of Moses propagate today.

Leviticus is not the entire message from God, but a guide to worship for the Jews.

But if JC (allegedly) said that the greatest commandment is to 'love your neighbour as you would love yourself'. Why do modern Christians bother with Leviticus' rules, ie their hatred of homosexual relationships?

I just don't understand the way modern Christians interperate their bibles.

But if JC (allegedly) said that the greatest commandment is to 'love your neighbour as you would love yourself'. Why do modern Christians bother with Leviticus' rules, ie their hatred of homosexual relationships?

I just don't understand the way modern Christians interperate their bibles.
the Christian Right Smears God by saying hes a homophobic hatemonger

the Christian Right Smears God by saying hes a homophobic hatemonger

MKULTRA, your lucky my sister didn't see this or she would blister your ear. I'm a Christian and I'm on the right and I've NEVER smeared God by calling him that!

MKULTRA, your lucky my sister didn't see this or she would blister your ear. I'm a Christian and I'm on the right and I've NEVER smeared God by calling him that!
I was saying it about Zooke

I was saying it about Zooke

I'm in Email contact with her as is my sister and I find her to be far more intelligent and down to earth than you are. I sincerely doubt that she believes what you just said she believes. I find it insulting. Maybe you should apologize!

I'm in Email contact with her as is my sister and I find her to be far more intelligent and down to earth than you are. I sincerely doubt that she believes what you just said she believes. I find it insulting. Maybe you should apologize!
what good would that do--Im sure shes CONVINCED Im possessed by demons-Ive argued with christian fundies before

This is rather laughable, is it not?

I especially like the part about the arrogance of mentality...itself stated in an arrogant tone that betrays a very real self-righteous assurance that the religion is a hoax and fraud.

What evidence can someone have that the text of any religion is no more real than the science fiction I occasionally read? I do hope it's something more tangible and less tenuous than the mere lack of empirically observed evidence, because to claim that there is no God, no religion, on the basis of God can't be observed in a laboratory setting is a logical fallacy.

The very nature of a deity, ANY deity (be it God or Zeus or Ra) is by definition above merely empirical, and a lack of evidence does not equate to a disproof of existence! The very nature of a deity, ANY deity, is supernatural, which means that it defies, or at least exceeds, the merely empirical.

Sorry, off topic.
:) Aiera

Right. I could use that same tautological argument to justify the flight of pigs. In accordance with your argument, I could use "Where the Wild Things Are" to claim the existence of monsters. Be serious, you have nothing to support the existence of God beyond mythology and yet you still justify it with contradictions? That defies common sense. As long as God, or any matter, lacks supporting evidence it can never be anything more than hypothetical. I can think that Microsoft is really the first step in an alien invasion all I want, I can elevate that same postulation to the level of the supernatural all I want, but it will never be anything more than a belief, not a fact.

On the topic, I would say that the conservative Christian have for the most part strayed from Jesus’ original ideals. This is hardly new, however. Simply taking a look at European history offers plenty of examples; the Catholic Church has had a long history of mercilessly killing anyone not subscribing to their own points of view through the vectors of the Crusades and Spanish Inquisition. The Church of England seemed to have no problem with crushing anyone that opposed their own view of the world through the lens of their bible. Moving on to American history, the Puritan’s feelings on love and understanding -two major themes championed by Jesus- are clearly illustrated by acts such as the Salem Which trials.

2.someone who perverts spiritual teachings for the devil.

What if you have a different conception of the Devil than Christians do? As far as I'm concerned, the only "Christ-killers" were the Roman government and soldiers that condemned the man and nailed him up. "Spiritual descendent" just sounds like a bunch of BS.

3.Jesus Christ was the first recorded liberal in history that we know of.

Assuming we can even trust the Gospels as accurate, it's still not that clear-cut. JC says in his sermon on the Mount that he has come not to break the law but "fulfill it"- and then goes on to create a bunch of even stricter laws than before. That's not very "liberal". By the same token, he flounts other aspects of Jewish law elsewhere in the texts. Labelling him a "liberal" is oversimplistic, and generally unhelpful in analyzing his political and religious teachings.

Additionally, calling Christ the first recorded liberal in history is unadulterated bullshit, assuming you can even call Christ a liberal in the first place. He might be the first liberal YOU'VE come across in recorded history, but I can certainly think of a few others that predate him by quite a bit.

4.most definitely-the nature of the pharissee is unchanged.

What the fuck does that mean? Remember, MKULTRA, that the Pharisees were the founders of the rabbinical party, and that their ideas went on to create what became mainline Orthodox Judaism. So exactly what "unchanged nature" are you talking about?

5. theyve gone wrong while trying to mask their inner shameful disfunctions and sexual tensions behind of false veil of piety.

See my first question in the previous paragraph.

6.they would kill Christ out of the hate that arises from the way they perverted their own true natures with their life denying dogma

See previous statement.

1. they pervert spiritual teachings because they promote dogmatic thinking instead of spirtual thinking.

Matter of opinion. What constitutes dogma and what constitutes spirituality? Are the two mutually exclusive? Are you saying that the existence of any form of rules or codified theology is by definition non-spiritual?

2.Jesus was a liberal cause everything value he promoted fits in to the liberal agenda of radical empathy and helping others and even pacifism.

Bullshit. Jesus contradicted himself as much as any modern politician. How empathetic was he to the rich, saying they won't get into heaven? Or the moneychangers when he destroys their stalls? Or the Pharisees and Scribes, whom he routinely castigates? Or towards the Jewish value of "peace in the home"? See Matt 10:35-36, and Luke 14:26, which says that an Apostle is REQUIRED to hate his family.

Similarly, how pacifistic is Luke 22:36, where Jesus advises the Apostles to ARM themselves?

Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take [it], and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Can't imagine many liberals advising their followers to sell the clothes off their backs to buy guns. :rolleyes:

He also berated the rich too.

How empathetic.

3. conservatives are more prone to being pharissees since power is their only true god and their promote values of selfishness fear and loathing.

Once again, when you say "Pharisees", keep in mind that you are insulting all of Orthodox Judaism (as well as the other branches, who all trance spiritual and ideological descent from the Pharisee party). Simply because you have been inculcated with the belief that the Pharisees were these conservative anti-Christ demons does not make it factual. The Pharisees were actually much more ideologically flexible than most Christian groups, and there's compelling evidence suggesting that JC probably was educated as a Pharisee.

Because the Jews do not believe that Jesus was the Messiah. They, and the Muslems, believe that He was one of the prophets.

That's entirely contingent on who you ask. No Jew I've ever met or spoken to has ever made that assertion. I personally feel Christ, if he actually existed and was anything like the man portrayed in the texts written about him, was probably mentally ill. (Of course, this could be the case for many of the OT Prophets, as well.)

I'm in Email contact with her as is my sister and I find her to be far more intelligent and down to earth than you are. I sincerely doubt that she believes what you just said she believes. I find it insulting. Maybe you should apologize!

Thank you for your encouragement. I'm arguing this same topic on 2 threads and it's getting hard not repeating myself. My main points are: (Kissingly please note because I feel I have offended you and I did not intend to.)

1. I am not condemning gays or representing my opinions, but simply presenting the reasoning behind the Christian right's opposition to gay marriage. I believe I have made it clear previously that I don't care if gays are permitted legally recognized unions. I do question why they insist on marriage as opposed to civil union unless it is because the term "marriage" does enflame some Christians. How can you hope to engage in discussion with another if you don't know and understand their opinions? If you don't want to listen to and consider their reasoning, then you don't want a discussion...you merely want to profess your beliefs above everyone else's.

2. Some insist on saying that Christian opposition is based all in the ancient laws of the Jews found in Leviticus when, in truth, there are numerous references in the New Testament. In each one it says that the act of homosexuality is to be condemned as well as other sins (murder, disobeying your parents, killing your parents, lust, lying, stealing), but not the people who practice it. They are God's children, too, and answer to Him, not us.

3. The New Testament does not say that God hates gays...just the opposite. It says that gays who profess to be Christians and love God, should re-examine their lives and determine if they really do love God and want to live their lives in His name. If they do, they should redirect their steps to follow His word and will know forgiveness and love and salvation. This same command and offer is made to all of us for all of our many sins.

4. If God didn't want homosexuals, why did he create them? I don't know. Why does he create people with no arms, or unformed brains, or epilepsy, or heart defects, or conjoined twins? Why are some people attracted to children? These aren't tendancies or problems by choice but something we're born with. Why does he allow children to suffer? Why does he allow us to be tempted to lie, cheat, steal, kill, commit adultry, lust? :confused: Just as I know that I am faced with temptation each day, I know that each time I need to ask myself "What does my Father want me to do?". My biggest problem is asking that question before I've gone ahead and done something stupid! :eek: Thank God He is so forgiving! ;)

Our civilization today has made gigantic steps in progress. But, this progress has also made our differences more apparent. I hope I have helped to clear up a little at least where I stand on this issue.