NationStates Jolt Archive

Have Your taxes been used to train Chechen Revels?

Now, now, you should know better than to just throw out a question like that without providing well-documented sources for us General posters... :rolleyes:

Now, now, you should know better than to just throw out a question like that without providing well-documented sources for us General posters... :rolleyes:Im not giving the answer....Im just asking a question....Actually (after all the "OMYGOD" post about that tragedy)...im inviting you all to ask yourself that question...

Before 9/11, many conservatives in the US and other nations voiced support for the Chechen cause against Russia.

nevermind

Have Your taxes been used to train Chechen Revels?
No! Because I don't earn enough money to pay taxes yet!

Have Your taxes been used to train Chechen Revels?
The Netherlands doesn't train terrorists. So I don't think so.

Before 9/11, many conservatives in the US and other nations voiced support for the Chechen cause against Russia.

Its shamefull how 9/11 is being abused.

Anyhow, most nations support the Russian acts of war against the supressed Chechnyans because Putin is preventing Russia from getting in total chaos again. Putin sucks, but at the moment he's the only option to keep Russia stable, allthough the war on Chechnya doesn't have anything to do with keeping Russia stable (on the contrary, thats just Putin and his USSR dream I guess). Putin runs the maffia and eliminates all other competing maffia, so that is a good thing... After that you just have to get rid of Putin's maffia and you have an clean country... on the other hand, I'm totally unsuited to say anything about Russia, I haven't got the background and the necesary knowledge. Not many have.

About the killings in Beslan. If you exterminate families in Chechnya, you may expect revenge on your own children and families. Same thing: when you attack families and civilians in Moslim countries...you may expect revenge on your own families, civilians. This is how it works. You wouldn't "turn the other cheeck" if they killed off your family.

We as people living in stable countries where there is no war going on or random kills are being done by an invading army, aren't suited to point fingers at rebels that take revenge on the enemy, even if children are among the casualities. Living war is different from living peace. It brings out the worst in a human being.

Ill tell you where the love is ... its in my pants.

Its shamefull how 9/11 is being abused.
What has 9-11 to do with the Beslan Children masacre?

BTW...Its an honest question...you may have a point...I do not know...

Ill tell you where the love is ... its in my pants.

WoooOOOO!

Ill tell you where the love is ... its in my pants.Did not ask where are your Brains...but...whatever...

Before 9/11, many conservatives in the US and other nations voiced support for the Chechen cause against Russia.
Right... Nazis if you mean conservatives.

Have my taxes been used to help train Chechen parties?
:confused:
And how exactly are children dying at these parties? It must have been one hell of a party.

I don't think the Bush admin would go so far as to do that . . . but hey I wouldn't be surprised

About the killings in Beslan. If you exterminate families in Chechnya, you may expect revenge on your own children and families. Same thing: when you attack families and civilians in Moslim countries...you may expect revenge on your own families, civilians. This is how it works. You wouldn't "turn the other cheeck" if they killed off your family.

We as people living in stable countries where there is no war going on or random kills are being done by an invading army, aren't suited to point fingers at rebels that take revenge on the enemy, even if children are among the casualities. Living war is different from living peace. It brings out the worst in a human being.

Yes, but more often then not, its the Chechens and Moslims doing the civillian killing. Ala Moscow Theatre, Raids into Southern Russia, and now Beslan school. Russians have killed Chechen families in Chechnya... for harbouring terrorists. Chechens have killed Russian Children... because they are Russian Children.

i support the chechnian movement because i believe that they deserve their own country. i do not however agree with their tactics. as for my taxes, i dont pay any so i dont care. but the US porababbly did give them weapons and stuff like that back in the 80s just like they gave osama bin laden weapons because they were fighting the Soviets and the US didnt care who they had to deal with to get rid of "communism".

Right... Nazis if you mean conservatives.
????

May I ask what is so "nazi" about thinking that a part of Russia occupied but never inhabited by russians since the 1900-century should be able to, just like the Baltic states, get a chance of being it's own nation?
The real reason why Putin doesn't let Chechenia (right spelling?) become independent is probably that he doesn't want Russia to loose Dagestan and Ingusija too, and perhaps larger and more oilfilled districts of Russia as a new wawe of nationalism would sweep over eastern Europe...

Yes, but more often then not, its the Chechens and Moslims doing the civillian killing. Ala Moscow Theatre, Raids into Southern Russia, and now Beslan school. Russians have killed Chechen families in Chechnya... for harbouring terrorists. Chechens have killed Russian Children... because they are Russian Children.

No. They killed Russian children because Russia handled the situation badly.

You mean when the roof collapsed, and the children tried to run off, so the Terrorists tried to gun them down? Or how about the 14 people executed, while negotiations were in progress. How about the female suicide bomber who blew herself up along with 3/4's of the male hostages in a room. How about the other one who set herself off in a room of children, while another woman had to be dragged out of the room so she wouldn't kill more? Damn Russian tactics. I would have loved to see what would have happened in the states.

Oh, I forgot. When the Terrorists first stormed the building, they injured quite a few people in the front lawns. They later finished them off without any remorse. They also killed any men that seemed to be mentally strong, or that might pose a problem.

About the killings in Beslan. If you exterminate families in Chechnya, you may expect revenge on your own children and families. Same thing: when you attack families and civilians in Moslim countries...you may expect revenge on your own families, civilians. This is how it works. You wouldn't "turn the other cheeck" if they killed off your family.

true...i would not...

No. They killed Russian children because Russia handled the situation badly.
Oh gee, that makes it sooo much better.

No. They killed Russian children because Russia handled the situation badly.Lets say you are Putin... you are in charge...how do you handle it?

Before 9/11, many conservatives in the US and other nations voiced support for the Chechen cause against Russia.

What has 9-11 to do with the Beslan Children masacre?

BTW...Its an honest question...you may have a point...I do not know...

After 9/11 the US supported Russia against Chechnya. Because Russia managed to abuse the American hate against everything that smells like "terrorism". Putin suddenly talked about the "Chechnyan terrorists" instead of the "Chechnyan rebels".

Among the hostagetakers in Beslan, several were Chechnyan. And of course everybody is angry with the "evil" Chechnyans and nobody asks themselves why those clearly disperate people turn against children. Hasn't it occured to noone that it is very very very possible that these "evil" terrorists lost their family, children, house and country to the Russians? And that there is a war going on in their land since '94??? Living war is living hell. If you feel you are certain that you can force out the invaders by attacking their civilians than you will certainly do so. I feel for their cause and I'm very sorry they feel they have to attack even children in order to persuade Russia to stop waging war upon their people, families and country.

Yes, but more often then not, its the Chechens and Moslims doing the civillian killing. Ala Moscow Theatre, Raids into Southern Russia, and now Beslan school. Russians have killed Chechen families in Chechnya... for harbouring terrorists. Chechens have killed Russian Children... because they are Russian Children.

...Russia won't show their military killing civilians in Chechny but they WILL smudge out every single killing done by the "eeeeevil" Chechnens. The press is being kept out of Chechnya. AND btw, Russia killed all those people in that theatre, using an unidentified gas (war gas: forbidden by international law). The Chechnyans killed only one man in that crisis. And Chechens killed Russian children becaus Russians killed their children...first. "An eye for an eye" sounds familiar doesn't it?

...Russia won't show their military killing civilians in Chechny but they WILL smudge out every single killing done by the "eeeeevil" Chechnens. The press is being kept out of Chechnya. AND btw, Russia killed all those people in that theatre, using an unidentified gas (war gas: forbidden by international law). The Chechnyans killed only one man in that crisis. And Chechens killed Russian children becaus Russians killed their children...first. "An eye for an eye" sounds familiar doesn't it?

Surely you have evidence or proof of this. You certainly are not low enough to make up something like that just to gather sympathy for the schoolchildren murderers, right?

Have Your taxes been used to train Chechen Revels?
Revels? What have the Chechen's got to be so happy about?
Perhaps if the US sent more money over to train more Chechen Revels, a peaceful (and certainly happy one with lots of singing, dancing and drinking) solution could be arrived upon. ;)

Lets say you are Putin... you are in charge...how do you handle it?
Negotiate at at least see if we can get out all the children, while keeping a few KGB hitmen nearby to fire when we know we can hit the terrorists and save the children. But, seem to give into their demands...you know, lull them into a false sense of security first... create the guise that they are indeed getting their demands met, then when it is certain have the KGB take out all the terrorists. The assholes were going to die anyway.

Hasn't it occured to noone that it is very very very possible that these "evil" terrorists lost their family, children, house and country to the Russians? And that there is a war going on in their land since '94??? Living war is living hell. If you feel you are certain that you can force out the invaders by attacking their civilians than you will certainly do so. I feel for their cause and I'm very sorry they feel they have to attack even children in order to persuade Russia to stop waging war upon their people, families and country.

Just a question, (hopefully this won't turn into a flame war) how do you feel about other similar situations like what is going on in Israel?

Surely you have evidence or proof of this. You certainly are not low enough to make up something like that just to gather sympathy for the schoolchildren murderers, right?


Hm do you even bother following international events? Russia admitted it had used a gas to put everyone to sleep in that theatre. Some sort of nerve gas, they didn't want to say what kind of gas, that was classified (developed by their scientists and the army used it on the people in the theatre). They used a wrong dose I guess, but fact stay: they killed all those people in that theatre. And as for the cameras being kept out of Chechnya and military operations, I've seen many documentaries on different situations concerning Russia (among them Chechnya) and most of the time cameras were immediatly sent away or confiscated. And when you see something about a military operation in Chechnya it is usually heavely coördinated by the Russian military. SO YES the press is being prevented from filming Russian operations in Chechnya. I guess you probably never heard of the situation in Chechnya since this "world shocking" news. The Chechens have suffered enough. Only very desperate people would do wat they did in Beslan. There is no good and evil only the interest of a Russian nation and the interest of a Chechen nation filled with grieving and vengefull Chechens.



Just a question, (hopefully this won't turn into a flame war) how do you feel about other similar situations like what is going on in Israel?

This has been going on for far too long. If the living conditions in the Palestian areas would improve and they wouldn't be harrassed or their homes being destroyed, their crops being destroyed,their families being randomly executed, they maybe have some hope and wouldn't want to kill themselves (with or without bombs strapped to their waste).

I know Israëlis have suffered too. But if they would stop building colonies on Palestian land, they wouldn't be attacked by the people that have lost their property to those prevocative fundamentalist Zionists. Israel is using what?, about 70% of their military expense to protect not 10% of their people (all living in illegal colonies on Palestinian land). AND now those fucks are building a Berlin wall around Palestinian territory. They learned a lot from WWII I guess. First concentration camps for Palestinians on Libanese territory in Shabra and Shatilla and now a Berlin wall. Nice, very nice. I feel for all those good meaning Israelis that want their government to stop those military actions agains Palestinians. Those bordercolonist fundamentalist zionists are nothing but religious nutcase provocative racist fucks.

...Russia won't show their military killing civilians in Chechny but they WILL smudge out every single killing done by the "eeeeevil" Chechnens. The press is being kept out of Chechnya. AND btw, Russia killed all those people in that theatre, using an unidentified gas (war gas: forbidden by international law). The Chechnyans killed only one man in that crisis. And Chechens killed Russian children becaus Russians killed their children...first. "An eye for an eye" sounds familiar doesn't it?

Yeah, they didn't have enough vaccinations for the sleeping gas. Yeah, so about 100 to 300 people choked on their tongues... that is bad of course. But apparently the Chechens had no plans of leaving alive.

Hm do you even bother following international events? Russia admitted it had used a gas to put everyone to sleep in that theatre. Some sort of nerve gas, they didn't want to say what kind of gas, that was classified (developed by their scientists and the army used it on the people in the theatre). They used a wrong dose I guess, but fact stay: they killed all those people in that theatre. .
Maybe you missed the part about why they had to do it. It was because CHECHEN REBELS stormed the place and threatened to kill everyone. The only CECHENS there were the ones threatening to kill everyone. Ah, and they didn't kill all the people in the theater, it is arguable how many the terrorists would have killed had the Russians not intervened. Had the Russians wanted to kill people they would not have used sleeping gas. (Even as ineptly as they did)

I don't think Chechens decided to kill schoolchildren (and two airliners) to avenge the hostages they themselves had threatened to kill.

How fucked up is your mind to miss that?

And as for the cameras being kept out of Chechnya and military operations, I've seen many documentaries on different situations concerning Russia (among them Chechnya.. .
name one....


and most of the time cameras were immediately sent away or confiscated. And when you see something about a military operation in Chechnya it is usually heavely coördinated by the Russian military. SO YES the press is being prevented from filming Russian operations in Chechnya. I guess you probably never heard of the situation in Chechnya since this "world shocking" news. The Chechens have suffered enough.


So let me get this right, your 'proof' is that there is no proof?


Only very desperate people would do wat they did in Beslan. There is no good and evil only the interest of a Russian nation and the interest of a Chechen nation filled with grieving and vengefull Chechens.


And the rest of your 'proof' is that they must be oppressed because only someone oppressed would do this?

Your trouble is your incoirrect postulate ; "There is no good and evil"; you are incapable of comprehending why someone would do something evil, because you refuse to cognize evil. You let your mind construe complex conspiracies because that is less threatening to your psyche than having to confront the reality that evil exists.

Until you can comprehend evil you will live in a world of shadow-conspiracies and fail to ever be taken seriously.

Sadly, by refusing to acknowledge evil, you fail to confront it and become an enabler.

You are not despicable, you are just grossly shallow.

Personally I think my taxes are being used to kill children enough, I would like to see at least 10% of the government's tax revenue to go towards the killing of children.

Its shamefull how 9/11 is being abused.

.

amen, brotha, preach on.

I would voluntarily send money to the more legitimate wing of the chechen rebellion, I dissagree with tactics like this that make your cause look so bad, it just doesn't work and isn't very nice.

Maybe you missed the part about why they had to do it. It was because CHECHEN REBELS stormed the place and threatened to kill everyone. The only CECHENS there were the ones threatening to kill everyone. Ah, and they didn't kill all the people in the theater, it is arguable how many the terrorists would have killed had the Russians not intervened. Had the Russians wanted to kill people they would not have used sleeping gas. (Even as ineptly as they did)

Yesss "sleeping gas"... And why did they threaten to kill everyone? Because they are maaaaaaadmen, muslim maaaaaadmen who hate everyone and one day they will throw atom bombs on the US!

Fact is...if Russia would have retreated from Chechnya, no one would have been killed (except for maybe the hostage takers, but I think they were willing to make that sacrifice in order to free their country...Russia didn't invade Chechnya to "free" the Chechens from some dictator maaaaaaaaadman you know)

I don't think Chechens decided to kill schoolchildren (and two airliners) to avenge the hostages they themselves had threatened to kill.

What the fuck? Do you even bother trying to understand what I typed? They chose children because they thought Russia would maybe do some more effort, and stop their war on Chechnya. AND about revenge. I said the Russians killed lots of people in Chechnya and it weren't only soldiers. People who lost their family and children would want to avenge their relatives (who's talking about avenging hostages??)


name one....

You wouldn't know them, they're all european journalists who made those documentaries. American documentaries aren't very lucrative, because according to statistics very few Americans are interested in foreign situations. We've got a very good channel here in Belgium. A very respected one too, they take great care in what documentaries they show.

So let me get this right, your 'proof' is that there is no proof?

That alone should be proof enough. Have you ever heard of a war without civilian killings? How many civilians did the Americans kill in Iraq, rest assure, more than the thousand soldiers killed in action over there. Bombers don't tend to avoid children and civilians.


And the rest of your 'proof' is that they must be oppressed because only someone oppressed would do this?

Noooo of course not. Everybody who takes children as a hostage (some hostagetakers were women) are maaaaaaaaaadmen, just like in all those very very educative Hollywoodmovies in which ooonly maaaaaaaadmen take children as a hostage. I for one would go on a massive killing spree if one took out my family. That is (according to me) a normal reaction. According to the bible you should turn the other cheeck... well once you lost your family, ... you only have one family, there is no other to turn.

Your trouble is your incoirrect postulate ; "There is no good and evil"; you are incapable of comprehending why someone would do something evil, because you refuse to cognize evil. You let your mind construe complex conspiracies because that is less threatening to your psyche than having to confront the reality that evil exists.

Until you can comprehend evil you will live in a world of shadow-conspiracies and fail to ever be taken seriously.

Sadly, by refusing to acknowledge evil, you fail to confront it and become an enabler.

Oh of course I forgot how dual your society is. In Hollywood you always have "the good guy" (in this case the poor poor Russians that don't know why the maaaaaaaaad Chechens are taking them as a target) and "the bad guy", usually quite maaaaaaaaaad especially when confronted with easy to target children (in this case the eeeeeeeevil Chechens).

You were well educated. All those conspiracy movies. It is not because you know that movies aren't real... that countries don't have a hidden agenda. Every nation in war covers up the bad things their army is doing.

Everybody was pro vietnam war until eventually a reporter managed to publice that picture with the burnt girl running from a napalm strike. Have you seen what the american missiles with deplete uranium did to the newborn children in certain places in Iraq? You probably heard of the US soldiers who suffer from strange desease after been in contact with the depleted uranium in Iraq? And still your government is covering up so much and you refuse to recognise it because "Hollywood movies aren't real"...


You are not despicable, you are just grossly shallow.

Now who is grossly shallow, mister "there is only good or evil"? Maybe another small thing...Saddam, Osama, Kadhafi,... they were once all good (friends of America) now they are all puuuuuuure eeeeeeevil... Wasn't Clinton suddenly evil too when he had his cock sucked by his secretary? Oh man was CNN (or whatever) evil when they broadcasted Janet Jacksons evil nipple


(this message may or may not be slightly dramatized in order to amuse the many many readers)

Tell me what is evil? What is good? Name one person that is entirely evil. A person that never loved and will never love. There is only interest in the end. But that is thinkin on a higher level. Good and evil is for comic books. Did you know the US is considered the enemy by the majority of the Iraqian people? And they were trying so hard freeing the people...of their oil.

If the Germans would have won, the resistence would have been evil, mokked at and lynched. But now they are heroes and all good...and the collaborators were mokked at and lynched. Good and evil, give it a rest.

You've got people who get agressive very quickly but that doesn't make them evil. And you've got people who are polite all the time, but that doesn't make them better than the agressive person. For all we know he hits his mother when going to visit her.

To make it bilbical. If there were only good and evil persons then Jesus would have been stoned to death when he said "let he who is without sin cast the first stone"...or is everybody in the middle east considered evil by the bible? ...hm now that would be conveniant when invading Syria. They did hide those eeevil Iraqian weapens of mass destructions, didn't they? :p


Ooh another good evil example... why are only great western nations (and Israel) allowed to have weapons of mass destruction and/or nuclear bombs? Because they are "good" and the others are "evil"? Many foreign nations consider the US or Russia or Israel to be "evil" and them to be "good". Show some empathy when trying to comprehend things, Bozzy.

And as for the cameras being kept out of Chechnya and military operations, I've seen many documentaries on different situations concerning Russia (among them Chechnya...

name one....

So let me get this right, your 'proof' is that there is no proof?


Ok this is an article out of the most respected newspaper in Belgium. To even whisper that this paper isn't objective enough when bringing news is blasfemy. I'm talking about "De Standaard". I'll translate a little piece of news from Dutch that illustrates the Russian way of handling the media.

Foreign news, page 11, wednesday 8 september 2004:

...The state television also didn't explain why, during the action, they constantly lied about the situation - and why on a fridaynoon they broadcasted pleasant, happy movies, while the whole world could follow the fights in Beslan live on CNN. The presence of western journalists in Beslan seems to have been one of the big disturbances for the Russian statecontrol: in Chechnya hardly anyone of the press gets in, while correspondents of all great media could come to Beslan.
In Russia the more critical local media are already paying the price, because of their more precise reporting of the situation. The head director of Izvestia, Raf Sjakirov, had to resign... (in short, he had broadcasted a very precise image and was forced by the government to resign)...
Two Georgian journalists and the chief of staff of the Arabian channel Al-Arabya were arrested when leaving Beslan. The two most famous Russian journalists who had been critical and objective when reporting about the Chechnyan war, Andrej Babitski and Anna Politovskaja, didn't even get to Beslan. They were arrested in the Moscovian airport...

Now dare say I wasn't right about governments covering up when they are going to war AND that the Russian government doesn't stop the media from entering Chechnya to make a decent report.

(I've posted quite a lot this day, but someone had touched a sensitive spot... and it wasn't my G-spot, more than you wanted to know probably :p)

Sadly, by refusing to acknowledge evil, you fail to confront it and become an enabler.



I thought killing people by accident was evil (US in Kosovo, Iraq, Afganistan, and dozens of others countries the US and other countries have bombs over the years (pricision bombing, control over the skies).
I thought invading a country, for made-up reasons (there were NOOO weapons of MD in Iraq, Sadam had NOOO connections with Al quada, The US and France are a lot closer to him), killing loads of people, making money by destroying the country and ordering US companies to rebuild it, paying for the repairs of course with Iraqi oil (how convenient, US destroys, Iraqi's pay for repairs, executed by US corporations), I thought all those thing were evil.
So, ooops I think the US is evil then, right Bozo?

All the people approving these pollicies and supporting and voting for Bush must be accomplices then?

And another thing, WHy is it that you go rambling things in Iraq for their ficticious weapons of MD, while India and Pakistan were on the brink of a nuclear war, and we haven't seen US marines there? Not enough recoures there? Not enough money to be made?
But, of course, your good old friends in Israël can have nuclear weapons. Sure, you gave them to Israël! You go shaking hands with thel, congratulating on that Berlin-wall thing, that separates villages from their own wells.

I'm going to make this simple for you, since John Wayne didn't make complicated movies.

If one kid punches the other, the other will be mad and will want to punch back.
If you support government terrorism against arabs in Palestine, or in Chili (you won't remember that but believe me, but the US were the ones that put most dictators in power in the America's), or where ever, they will want to strike back, until you realise you made a mistake.

If you use the bit of common sense, you will see that the source of the eeeeevil you're talking about, begins with supporting people and governments like the ones stated above.

Start confronting the evil in the ballot box, in Florida where Blacks where by all means prevented from voting in 2000, in your own streets and neighbourhoods where people don't have health insurance, where kids can purchase guns before they can legally drink alcohol (the minimum age for handgun possession under federal law is 18) and so on.
Maybe have a look at this evil at your own backdoor: http://www.nraleaders.com/state-of-affairs.html

Maybe then you might get a little step closer to human decency.

Good day.

Everybody was pro vietnam war until eventually a reporter managed to publice that picture with the burnt girl running from a napalm strike. Have you seen what the american missiles with deplete uranium did to the newborn children in certain places in Iraq? You probably heard of the US soldiers who suffer from strange desease after been in contact with the depleted uranium in Iraq? And still your government is covering up so much and you refuse to recognise it because "Hollywood movies aren't real"...


Actually, to fill you in on this one: during the Gulf war there were 147 US soldiers to die, and after the war, at least 9600 have died. (These numbers are a few years old, which makes them even more unusual.)