NationStates Jolt Archive

Jeez... what I heard in the news. In Russia a couple of guys took a entire school hostage. The Russian govrnment did not negotiate but instead entered the buildig with a special squad to rescue all the hostages (mainly children). In their effort 150 people died, mostly of the gym being on fire and the roof collapsing, and another 400 got wounded. Those are the official numbers, but rumors are that there are many more.

BUT... The terrorists still have not been captured or killed and still hold some kids hostage...

HOW STUPID ARE THOSE RUSSIANS?
No organisation whatsoever. We feared them for 50 years when we might as well have feared the Luxembough army, consisting of both cops who are the only ones allow to have guns but wear cammo.

No they did the right thing. You dont negoitate with terrorists ever since it is a slipperly slope.


Better that 1000 children die, than a single terrorists demand is met. Harsh but true.


Oh and it you watch the news at all you will surely see, where they are reporting everywhere that russia did not stage any recuse operation but instead had to respond to circumstances.

Well... 150 dead and 400 wounded and still no terrorists taken is, to say the least, a very weak effort to me.

actually they tried to negioate with the Ts but they kept refusing everything the russians offered and just kept to there original crazy demands. And the Russians raided the building after they heard gunfire and an explosion from inside it.

Well... 150 dead and 400 wounded and still no terrorists taken is, to say the least, a very weak effort to me.

As opposed to some 3000 dead an no terrorists taken? Dude, wake up and smell the coffee...

Indeed, since you have planned, executed and pulled off many such rescue missions you can no doubt decipher in an instant how much 'effort' is put into each rescue attempt... :rolleyes:

the news reports ive been hearing (in UK) are saying that the terrorists opened fire on some of the hostages that were trying to escape, the russians then fired back to try and save the escaping hostages, then all hell broke loose, with terrorist mines going off, army blowing holes in the wall to try and get people out, and a whole load of injuries, i heard 150 confirmed deaths, and 400 injuries, with most of the terrorists killed, and some others holed up in a basement somewhere

but then again, russia doesnt have the best record for handling terrorist activities

you dont negotiate with terrorists - how stupid.

You need to know what a terroists problems with your country are so you can try to come to a soloution. You cannot beat terrorism with force, only with peaceful deeds.

Hey before Glasnost and Perestroika the Russian Navy and Warsawapact forces was quite a different thing. Pluss, they still have enough nukes to destroy virtually all of humanity on Earth by themselves.

And police not having guns most of the time is usually a pretty good idea.

:sniper: :mp5:

you dont negotiate with terrorists - how stupid.

You need to know what a terroists problems with your country are so you can try to come to a soloution. You cannot beat terrorism with force, only with peaceful deeds.

How stupid again.
If you negotiate with terrorist instead of make peaceful deeds on some other initiative you end up with a terrorist bombing a residential block every time a demand is not met or a conflict flares up.

It doesn't matter if the Russian governments has been supressing and massacring Tcechnyans for centuries. If they negotiate with terrorist they're giving terrorism a reason to exist other then pure shock value.
That's why Australia was mad at Indonesia or the Fillipines (I don't remember which country) for pulling their workers out of Iraq. Supposedly led to kidnapping of Australian citizen.

when terrorist hold people hostage, you agree to their demands.


then you kill them

happens most of the time, anyway

you dont negotiate with terrorists - how stupid.

You need to know what a terroists problems with your country are so you can try to come to a soloution. You cannot beat terrorism with force, only with peaceful deeds.
They know exactly what they want, a free chechnia (spelling?).

"Better that 1000 children die, than a single terrorists demand is met. Harsh but true."

You're a bit of a twit.

Why's that anyway?

In Soviet Russia, mistakes make you!

"Better that 1000 children die, than a single terrorists demand is met. Harsh but true."

You're a bit of a twit.

Why's that anyway?

Once again... Every time anyone pays a ransom, stops a war, or does anything else on account of terrorism the terrorist will see that their tactics WORK!

In Soviet Russia, mistakes make you!

In Soviet Russia school girl rape you! -Errant Story

"Better that 1000 children die, than a single terrorists demand is met. Harsh but true."

You're a bit of a twit.

Why's that anyway?
probably just American powertalk :p

YOU NEVER NEGOTIATE WITH TERRORISTS!!

They are fundamentalist radical religious groups most of the time. You can't beat them with diplomacy, because they aren't willing to budge an inch from their beliefs (Allah says so). Also, if you negotiate with one terrorist group, you're just encouraging the next, because you're easy.

If terrorists ever fuck with you, kill 'em.
:sniper:

Once again... Every time anyone pays a ransom, stops a war, or does anything else on account of terrorism the terrorist will see that their tactics WORK!
If a terrorist stops a war, I'll applaud him/her. If one finds money more important than life, you're just a fecking ass.

Well you've all heard very different versions of the story to me.

Hey this will probably get me flamed sooner or later, but his argument is a bit like the one about 1'st lvl. characters in rpg's. Characters live and breath and have their own lives, which starts at level 1. Anything else is just sheets of paper. That's another harsh and true fact of life.

If it's harsh but true that it's better that 1000 children die then 2000 children die tomorrow because the beleagured Tcechnyans find out killing schoolchildren in revenge works then it's simply true.
At least to the 2000 schoolchildren. I'm sure the 1000 schoolchildren + their relatives and loved ones will disagree. As will the 2k schoolchildren who want the 3k schoolchildren and elderly to pay the price.

If a terrorist stops a war, I'll applaud him/her. If one finds money more important than life, you're just a fecking ass.

So you think it's right to take schoolchildren hostage and maybe kill them to stop a war? The end justifies the means?

It's not out of revenge. It's because Poutin(sp?) won't negotiate AT ALL with them. They want attention.

Well you've all heard very different versions of the story to me.
http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=354295
From what I heard the attack was not planned or ordered by Moscow. And lots of hostages were killed when the roof caved in. Probably as a result from helicopter missile attacks. According to journalists who were on site.

It's not out of revenge. It's because Poutin(sp?) won't negotiate AT ALL with them. They want attention.

Taking schoolchildren hostage is the bad kind of attention.

So you think it's right to take schoolchildren hostage and maybe kill them to stop a war? The end justifies the means?
Well... no but if terrorists start killing children/other humans they'll stop negotiating with them. Negotiation comes from both sides. The terrorists have got to negotiate too, AND are probably willing too or else they might as well blow the school up when they're not inside

I think they should have "negotiated", then when they had good leverage, seized the children and executed the terrorists. You know...use a KGB hitman, or two or three... to do it and leave the men and women on the ground unarmed....... so the terrorists thing it's safe.

the news reports ive been hearing (in UK) are saying that the terrorists opened fire on some of the hostages that were trying to escape, the russians then fired back to try and save the escaping hostages, then all hell broke loose, with terrorist mines going off, army blowing holes in the wall to try and get people out, and a whole load of injuries, i heard 150 confirmed deaths, and 400 injuries, with most of the terrorists killed, and some others holed up in a basement somewhere

but then again, russia doesnt have the best record for handling terrorist activities

Here's a BBC report (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3624024.stm) claiming 20 tangos dead, including 9 "arabs".
1 - At 0850GMT a vehicle from the Emergencies Ministry is sent in to retrieve the bodies of those killed at the start of the siege
2 - A small number of the children being held hostage escape from the building. The attackers start firing at the children to try to block their escape. In response the Russian troops surrounding the school fire at the attackers
3 - A series of explosions rock the school gymnasium, bringing the roof of the building down


Note how the KGB dealt with the one kidnapping of a Russian (the Beirut station cheif) during the mid 80s kidnap spree in Lebanon:
1) Kidnap the daughter of the most prominant terrorist group.
2) Send her father a finger, with a promise to return his daughter, piece by piece.
3) Exchange hostages.
No more Russians were kidnapped.

Contrast that with the effeciveness of the US response.

The Russians were seriously nastier, but got the job done.

Just read a news article on MSN. There were 28 or more terrorists. There were hundreds of school children, faculty, staff, and parents in the building when they took over. They took control of the school 3 days ago. They began wiring it with explosives as soon as they took over. They "executed" (murdered) 20 adult males who were in the building when they took over. They would not accept food or water for themselves or the hostages. The Russian authorities have been negotiating for three days. They did get 26 people released. When, as had been agreed, Russian firemen went into the building to bring out the 20 bodies, an explosion went off. That's when the Russians decided to storm the building.

Hundreds are dead or wounded. About 20 of the terrorist - of whom the report says some (10?) seemed to be arabs. At the time the report was filed there was still a battle going on between the remaining terrorists and the authorities - the terrorists were in a basement and still had some hostages.

The explosion seems to have been in the Gym, where most of the hostages had been being held. One eyewitness said he thought there were 100 dead in there.

Taking schoolchildren hostage is the bad kind of attention.
As is invading Iraq

The russian govt wont say what they did any time soon it will be leaked out like the theatre seige. Anyway you shouldn't just storm a hostage situation that just gives the terrorists the warning they need to shoot all the hostages the nobody really wins because more people will feel sympathy for the terrorists cause and the people who ordered the seige will be condemned

Well I don't know if it's the Tcech- (anyone know how to spell it?) but some of the terrorists in Russia like to blow up residential blocks. Sounds like what you just described.
Anyway, the points is, when you take schoolchildren hostage, it has to be a real threat that you'll kill them or the police will just storm the building. That's why it's TERROR-ism right?

From what I have been reading, the terrorists would not allow water or medicine .

Children were comming out only with their underwear on so they were having major problems. The fact they blew the roof on the buildings says the "freedom fighters" wanted to kill these kids.

It was not a planned assult and it started when the "freedom fighters" fired on people retrieving dead bodies.



There is going to be many dead from this act.....

It might be a good idea if America might be confronted with such terrorists.
In the end, everybody dies. That's there triggerhappy way of losing a war.
Yankees are crybabies. They are the real source of all this terrorism.
Chechen rebels probably are bought with Yankee dollars!

Its spelt Chechnya btw just checked with a dictionary

Jeez... what I heard in the news. In Russia a couple of guys took a entire school hostage. The Russian govrnment did not negotiate but instead entered the buildig with a special squad to rescue all the hostages (mainly children). In their effort 150 people died, mostly of the gym being on fire and the roof collapsing, and another 400 got wounded. Those are the official numbers, but rumors are that there are many more.

BUT... The terrorists still have not been captured or killed and still hold some kids hostage...

HOW STUPID ARE THOSE RUSSIANS?
No organisation whatsoever. We feared them for 50 years when we might as well have feared the Luxembough army, consisting of both cops who are the only ones allow to have guns but wear cammo.

"The violence began after militants had agreed to let Russia retrieve the bodies of people killed early in the raid. Explosions went off as the emergency personnel went to get the bodies at around 1 p.m., collapsing part of the roof of the building, and hostages took the noise as a signal to flee, officials said.

Militants opened fire on fleeing hostages and security forces returned fire. Once the hostage-takers sought to escape, Russian officials apparently made the decision to storm the building.

The militants had reportedly threatened to blow up the building if authorities tried to storm it, but all indications suggested the explosions began before the assault. Russian officials repeatedly said they were not planning to invade and had earlier won the release of 26 hostages through negotiations."

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20040903_1037.html


As you can see, this was not a planned operation. The Russian forces were forced to take action when the terrorists began firing at children.

It might be a good idea if America might be confronted with such terrorists.
In the end, everybody dies. That's there triggerhappy way of losing a war.
Yankees are crybabies. They are the real source of all this terrorism.
Chechen rebels probably are bought with Yankee dollars!
*brainwash alert*

It might be a good idea if America might be confronted with such terrorists.
In the end, everybody dies. That's there triggerhappy way of losing a war.
Yankees are crybabies. They are the real source of all this terrorism.
Chechen rebels probably are bought with Yankee dollars!

riiiiiighttt...

Invading Iraq has been a diplomatic disaster for the U.S. and I disagree with the reasons for invading but I still think the place might be better of in the long run 20-50 years from now.
Time will show if it just led to a lot of dead people and worse.

The Korean war kept South Korea from being a North Korea today.

Yeah keep telling yourself that America could have taken Soviet Russia.

One wrong move and America would have gotten the shit nuked out of it!!!

Yeah keep telling yourself that America could have taken Soviet Russia.

One wrong move and America would have gotten the shit nuked out of it!!! It's called M.A.D. ;)

Just out of curiosity, how many of you just became aware of the situatiuon?
It's been in the news several days now, but some of the posters here (including the OP) sound like they just heard about it....

Jeez... what I heard in the news. In Russia a couple of guys took a entire school hostage. The Russian govrnment did not negotiate but instead entered the buildig with a special squad to rescue all the hostages (mainly children). In their effort 150 people died, mostly of the gym being on fire and the roof collapsing, and another 400 got wounded. Those are the official numbers, but rumors are that there are many more.

BUT... The terrorists still have not been captured or killed and still hold some kids hostage...

HOW STUPID ARE THOSE RUSSIANS?
No organisation whatsoever. We feared them for 50 years when we might as well have feared the Luxembough army, consisting of both cops who are the only ones allow to have guns but wear cammo.
That isnt what happened.
Terrorists: Approx 24, armed with rockets, machine guns, assualt rifles, and suicide belts.
Hostages: approx 800 children, parents, and staff.
The terrorists agreed to allow a squad of soldiers in the school to remove a dozen dead, that were killed in the initial assualt.
The soldiers entered, (like what had been happening all day) an explosion occurred, causing the children to break for it, the terrorists open fire on the kids, the Russian soldiers HAD to return fire or watch these kids who were fleeing get gunned down.
The kids parent were outside and the press showed footage of the soldiers being allowed in.
Nobody "stormed" the place.
Americans would have done no better, and fuck you for having anything to say other then "Taking children hostage is bullsh*t".

It's called M.A.D. ;)

You beat me to it! ;)

riiiiiighttt...

Invading Iraq has been a diplomatic disaster for the U.S. and I disagree with the reasons for invading but I still think the place might be better of in the long run 20-50 years from now.
Time will show if it just led to a lot of dead people and worse.

The Korean war kept South Korea from being a North Korea today.

Im sure the people of Afghanistan, Cambodia, Indonesia and Iraq who have had people they know killed by American installed dictartoships are really happy that America were so eager to intervene.

What exactly to you mean by M.A.D. - is that both countries would have nuked the shit out of each other? Cuz yeah that would have happened too.

What exactly to you mean by M.A.D. - is that both countries would have nuked the shit out of each other? Cuz yeah that would have happened too. Mutual assured destruction (http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/mutual%20assured%20destruction)

Im sure the people of Afghanistan, Cambodia, Indonesia and Iraq who have had people they know killed by American installed dictartoships are really happy that America were so eager to intervene. Don't forget the cases where the US actually overthrew democratic governments and replaced them with dictatorships e.g. Chile, Iran.

Don't forget the cases where the US actually overthrew democratic governments and replaced them with dictatorships e.g. Chile, Iran.
Yeah, we don't have any assurance that we won't get Saddam 2: This time he's going to nuke the sh*t out of us. After all, the Iraqis let Saddam come into power, whats to stop someone worse from taking his place?

Yeah, we don't have any assurance that we won't get Saddam 2: This time he's going to nuke the sh*t out of us. After all, the Iraqis let Saddam come into power, whats to stop someone worse from taking his place?

Americans let Bush come into power, hopefully they can go invade themselves next.

Incredible.

We start with the Russian school tragity and we end up with America bashing?

:rolleyes: