NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.inspire21.com/Images/eCardART/American_products.gif

If you are American buy American. That means you may pay more, but you help out another american. And one more thing. Boycott wal mart. 10% of Chinese exports go to Wal Marts in the United States. (Source, Parade Magazine, April 2004)

http://www.mtaflcio.org/wallmartberlinwall.jpg




http://www.ufcw911.com/shopunion_files/image001.gif

I am chinese and i am patriotic so i will therefore buy at wal-mart.....

I dont think having to buy American (or your countries) products makes you more patriotic. In a free country you are free to believe whatever you like about patriotism. I personally do buy American when the price does reflect that "you get what you pay for". But with walmart you can buy some pretty good non American products at half the price as the American and it still lasts the same amount of time before breakdown. I like Wal mart because its the only large non union company. The only downside to unions in the US is that they go by the same means as special interest groups. Now if we could stop special interest and Unions from being in the political fray of things, I would buy union products left and right.

I prefer to buy things made in foreign countries for two reasons. First, I'm sending some of my money to people who really need it (those Chinese factory workers? They might be slightly more deserving than our relatively well-off chums in Illinois or Newcastle). Second, they're better priced. By buying low-priced goods from other countries you force companies operating in your own country to become more competitive. If those companies become more competitive, they eventually get bigger profits and can expand operations. So in the long term buying the cheapest good is best for American companies.

I am chinese and i am patriotic so i will therefore buy at wal-mart.....

Well, the biggest hypocracy in the world right now is that Communist China is dependent on Capitalist USA.

http://www.inspire21.com/Images/eCardART/American_products.gif

If you are American buy American. That means you may pay more, but you help out another american. And one more thing. Boycott wal mart. 10% of Chinese exports go to Wal Marts in the United States. (Source, Parade Magazine, April 2004)

http://www.mtaflcio.org/wallmartberlinwall.jpg




http://www.ufcw911.com/shopunion_files/image001.gif

so being patriotic means helping the rich ppl in your country as opposed to the poor of another country?

Patriotic? I'll show you patriotic. (all arise)

God save our gracious Queen,
Long live our noble Queen,
God save The Queen.
Send her victorious,
Happy and glorious,
Long to reign over us:
God save The Queen.

O Lord our God, arise,
Scatter our enemies,
And make them fall;
Confound their politics,
Frustrate their knavish tricks;
On thee our hopes we fix:
God save us all.

Thy choicest gifts in store
On her be pleased to pour,
Long may she reign.
May she defend our laws,
And ever give us cause
To sing with heart and voice,
God save The Queen.



absolutely old chap! That'll teach johnny foreigner! Frustrate their knavish tricks!!

Well, the biggest hypocracy in the world right now is that Communist China is dependent on Capitalist USA.

how so?

I dont think having to buy American (or your countries) products makes you more patriotic. In a free country you are free to believe whatever you like about patriotism. I personally do buy American when the price does reflect that "you get what you pay for". But with walmart you can buy some pretty good non American products at half the price as the American and it still lasts the same amount of time before breakdown. I like Wal mart because its the only large non union company. The only downside to unions in the US is that they go by the same means as special interest groups. Now if we could stop special interest and Unions from being in the political fray of things, I would buy union products left and right.

Why would buying things from slave labor factories made you patriotic?

Wal Mart rountinely makes workers punch out on their time card and work for another two hours while not getting paid their $6 an hour. Wal Mart is the worst part of capitalism, and they have proven it by putting mom and pop stores out, as well as small business and ever large companies such as KB Toyrs and Toys R Us.

Unions are not part of special interests. They are only people trying to make a living for their famlies.

Buy American, you say? I'm sorry, but when it comes to cars, I prefer imports (Toyota, Honda, and Subaru). To me, performance and reliability-wise, most affordable American cars just don't compare to the previous three I mentioned.

Take for example my first car and my husband's first car: Mine was a '91 Oldsmobile Cutless Supreme, his is an '85 Toyota Celica. Mine died a year ago after having numerous, numerous problems while my husband's Toyota is still running.

So when it comes to quality of affordable cars, American companies just don't cut it.

t (those Chinese factory workers? They might be slightly more deserving than our relatively well-off chums in Illinois or Newcastle).

Second, they're better priced. By buying low-priced goods from other countries you force companies operating in your own country to become more competitive.

If those companies become more competitive, they eventually get bigger profits and can expand operations. So in the long term buying the cheapest good is best for American companies.

1. Chinese workers get paid a few cents an hour and work 18 hour shifts. How is that desverving? I'd rather give my money to someone knowing that they work 8 hours a day making a good wage because its what they have done for 20 years.

2. The only thing it does is increase the demand for overseas products and send more jobs to China, Vietnam, and other underserving poverty ridden countrys. Poverty has done up around the world by 10% since the WTO was made.

3. Except they dont become more profitable when they have to become more competitive. That means closing plants and sending the jobs away.

Why would buying things from slave labor factories made you patriotic?
Wal Mart rountinely makes workers punch out on their time card and work for another two hours while not getting paid their $6 an hour. Wal Mart is the worst part of capitalism, and they have proven it by putting mom and pop stores out, as well as small business and ever large companies such as KB Toyrs and Toys R Us. Unions are not part of special interests. They are only people trying to make a living for their famlies.

Really? I know a gal that makes $7.75 (still nothing) with benifits and at times she gets some overtime. She has never been cheated on her time card. Is this a one time deal only? Or is what you are saying a one time deal only? Who knows because maybe we both are biased.

This is hyperbole because you are biased for unions correct? I am biased for private industry correct? No matter I will not change your mind and you will not change mine. If you dont like a job or they do you wrong in anyway, quit! If you let someone maintain you as a slave then you are enabling them to be your master.

absolutely! Who needs unions?

Patriotic? I'll show you patriotic. (all arise)

God save our gracious Queen,
Long live our noble Queen,
God save The Queen.
Send her victorious,
Happy and glorious,
Long to reign over us:
God save The Queen.

O Lord our God, arise,
Scatter our enemies,
And make them fall;
Confound their politics,
Frustrate their knavish tricks;
On thee our hopes we fix:
God save us all.

Thy choicest gifts in store
On her be pleased to pour,
Long may she reign.
May she defend our laws,
And ever give us cause
To sing with heart and voice,
God save The Queen.



absolutely old chap! That'll teach johnny foreigner! Frustrate their knavish tricks!!



Typical English hypocrite! Left out the 'Scots to crush' line. And stuff the Queen!

1. Chinese workers get paid a few cents an hour and work 18 hour shifts. How is that desverving? I'd rather give my money to someone knowing that they work 8 hours a day making a good wage because its what they have done for 20 years.
2. The only thing it does is increase the demand for overseas products and send more jobs to China, Vietnam, and other underserving poverty ridden countrys. Poverty has done up around the world by 10% since the WTO was made.
3. Except they dont become more profitable when they have to become more competitive. That means closing plants and sending the jobs away.


Chinese Factory workers usually make 100 yuan ($12.50) a month, in dirty, poor conditions. You're right about that. However, everything is much, much cheaper in China, and you could live on the income.
China is a huge country with over a billion people, it needs jobs such as these for people to live. its not like here, where you can afford to be unemployed.
The Education system is good, but way overcrowded. Entering a college is impossible, even though asians greatly value education (they learn calculus in 8th grade, or so i'm told by my parents). However, they can't all be lawyers here.
I'm just trying to paint a picture of China

but, in conclusion....
DAMN THE CAPITALISTS, FOWARD THE COMMUNIST REVOLUTION!

Are you patriotic? You've confused a couple of terms.

Patriotism -
1. love for, and devotion and loyalty to, one's nation.

Nationalism
1. the collective spirit and aspirations of a nation.
2. concern for or devotion to one's own nation, esp. desire for national progress or independence.

Buy American is a nationalist attitude. It has nothing to do with patriotism. Buying a Saab or a Chinese T-shirt doesn't make you a traitor, it just makes you unsupportive of your fellow workers.

so being patriotic means helping the rich ppl in your country as opposed to the poor of another country?

I wouldnt call the manufacturing workers rich.

how so?

10% of all Chinese exports go to Wal Mart. Old Navy and The Gap make everything in China.

DAMN THE CAPITALISTS, FOWARD THE COMMUNIST REVOLUTION!

:mad:

Im patriotic, I just hate my Prime Minister!! (tony blair, im from the uk)
My father just got back from fighting in Iraq with a bullet in his leg from an Iraqi militant in Basra. If tony blair had gone the right way about it, and not tried to suck up to Bush, then my dad would not be disabled. but, I suppose thats the risk you take when you join the army.
p.s. i don't shop at wal-mart ;)

Buy American, you say? I'm sorry, but when it comes to cars, I prefer imports (Toyota, Honda, and Subaru). To me, performance and reliability-wise, most affordable American cars just don't compare to the previous three I mentioned.

Take for example my first car and my husband's first car: Mine was a '91 Oldsmobile Cutless Supreme, his is an '85 Toyota Celica. Mine died a year ago after having numerous, numerous problems while my husband's Toyota is still running.

So when it comes to quality of affordable cars, American companies just don't cut it.

It doesnt take away from the fact that the Jap cars are smaller, less safer, and made by non-union workers.

When it comes to lies, American cares dont compare. Toyota recently ran an advertisement campaign boasting about 100 years of Jap-American friendship. I sent them an email saying it was offense to people that fought Japan 60 years ago, and they pulled the ad. Recently they ran another ad boasting they employ 191,000 people, when in fact it is 45,000 people that they employ in the united states.

You've confused a couple of terms.

Patriotism -
1. love for, and devotion and loyalty to, one's nation.

Nationalism
1. the collective spirit and aspirations of a nation.
2. concern for or devotion to one's own nation, esp. desire for national progress or independence.

Buy American is a nationalist attitude. It has nothing to do with patriotism. Buying a Saab or a Chinese T-shirt doesn't make you a traitor, it just makes you unsupportive of your fellow workers.

Patriotism and nationalism are closely tied together because they are both part of actions of being proud and loyal to ones country. It makes you unsupportive of your fellow countrymen when you buy imports.

10% of all Chinese exports go to Wal Mart. Old Navy and The Gap make everything in China.

How is communist china independant from U.S.A?

They still bring in cash for the country, as well as more tax revenue

Chinese Factory workers usually make 100 yuan ($12.50) a month, in dirty, poor conditions. You're right about that. However, everything is much, much cheaper in China, and you could live on the income.
China is a huge country with over a billion people, it needs jobs such as these for people to live. its not like here, where you can afford to be unemployed.
The Education system is good, but way overcrowded. Entering a college is impossible, even though asians greatly value education (they learn calculus in 8th grade, or so i'm told by my parents). However, they can't all be lawyers here.
I'm just trying to paint a picture of China

but, in conclusion....
DAMN THE CAPITALISTS, FOWARD THE COMMUNIST REVOLUTION!

Your parents are disenfranchised and most likley brainwashed by your motherland. If it was up to the communists, you would not be in the US and there would be no such thing as a computer. Maybe the chinese government should figure out a way to make their own economy, not one that steals jobs from Americans.

China is nothing more than a country that needs to be kept in the 3rd world.

If they take our jobs, they should be considered an enemy.

Chinese Factory workers usually make 100 yuan ($12.50) a month, in dirty, poor conditions. You're right about that. However, everything is much, much cheaper in China, and you could live on the income.
China is a huge country with over a billion people, it needs jobs such as these for people to live. its not like here, where you can afford to be unemployed.
The Education system is good, but way overcrowded. Entering a college is impossible, even though asians greatly value education (they learn calculus in 8th grade, or so i'm told by my parents). However, they can't all be lawyers here.
I'm just trying to paint a picture of China

but, in conclusion....
DAMN THE CAPITALISTS, FOWARD THE COMMUNIST REVOLUTION!

FOWARD THE COMMUNIST REVOLUTION? Too late to tell the dead students at Tiananmen Square about your bloody Communist Revolution and all those who died in the cultural revolution ... you pathetic fool!

DAMN THE CAPITALISTS, FOWARD THE COMMUNIST REVOLUTION

Sorry guys, you must have misunderstood me.

It was a joke/sarcasm.

My bad

How is communist china independant from U.S.A?

They still bring in cash for the country, as well as more tax revenue

Communist China is like a plague, slowly sucking money away from the USA and their workers that have worked decades for their jobs. All of a sudden these Communists are taking our jobs. The biggest disgust is that our leaders have been allowing this since the collapse of the USSR. It has been Democrats, and Republicans.

Your parents are disenfranchised and most likley brainwashed by your motherland. If it was up to the communists, you would not be in the US and there would be no such thing as a computer. Maybe the chinese government should figure out a way to make their own economy, not one that steals jobs from Americans.

China is nothing more than a country that needs to be kept in the 3rd world.

If they take our jobs, they should be considered an enemy.

Have you even been to a 3rd world country? Or even China?

I know a lot more about China then you do.

I've been to farms where my parents grew up, seen the factories that my uncles own, been though the dirty streets where everyone spits and litters, bought food in the open air markets, traveled over the clean highway system, slept in a 4 person train compartment.

What is your knowledge of China based upon?

Some info:

http://madeinusa.org/nav.cgi?info/whybuy

http://www.lighthouse57.com/Pictures/USAFallSleep.jpg

Not all Chinese people are communist. It is as diverse as the U.S.A today. The Communist party is slowly turning into the Capitalist party, which is why the factories are there in the first place.


You can't accuse us of being Communist, and, at the same time, Capitalists for stealing your jobs

Have you even been to a 3rd world country? Or even China?

I know a lot more about China then you do.

I've been to farms where my parents grew up, seen the factories that my uncles own, been though the dirty streets where everyone spits and litters, bought food in the open air markets, traveled over the clean highway system, slept in a 4 person train compartment.

What is your knowledge of China based upon?

My stepmother used to live in Hong Kong. My stepbrother was born there. I am not allowed to make negative comments about China at my dads house because she worked there and inspected factories and set up the lines of distribution.

I never intend to give a Communist country any of my money as long as it takes our jobs, aims nuclear weapons at my country, and kills anyone that disagrees with it. Did you know there are over 500,000 people in prisons for speaking out against the government or doing something "unpatriotic"?

http://i.mktw.net/newsimages/news/infographics/china_deficit_20030813_221x150.gif


Have your parents explained to you this picture?
http://bill.of.rights.faithweb.com/tanks.gif

Not all Chinese people are communist. It is as diverse as the U.S.A today. The Communist party is slowly turning into the Capitalist party, which is why the factories are there in the first place.


You can't accuse us of being Communist, and, at the same time, Capitalists for stealing your jobs

China has not had a government change since Mao took over in 1949.

China is not capitalist, they only legalized private ownership of property 6 months ago. If China is so capitalist, why do they still oppose Taiwan, which is truly capitalist. The capitalist party you speak of died in 1989.

"Seen from the changes in the world situation and the United States' hegemonic strategy for creating monopolarity, war is inevitable...We cannot avoid it. The issue is that the Chinese armed forces must control the initiative in this war....We must be prepared to fight for one year, two years, three years or even longer." Chi Haotian, Chinese Defense Minister, Cheng Ming, Hong Kong's newspaper, January 11, 2000

http://www.usvetdsp.com/boycott.htm

http://www.rsf.org/rsf/uk/imgCompress/camp_boycott_uk.jpg

http://www.rogerhedgecock.com/timages/photo/thumbs/RHSD-IP_2935_3.jpg

I wish I could find a sign like that. Those Chinese have been responsible for dumping furniture on the US market. Thats why there are now tarrifs up to 103% on that furniture.

My stepmother used to live in Hong Kong. My stepbrother was born there. I am not allowed to make negative comments about China at my dads house because she worked there and inspected factories and set up the lines of distribution.

I never intend to give a Communist country any of my money as long as it takes our jobs, aims nuclear weapons at my country, and kills anyone that disagrees with it. Did you know there are over 500,000 people in prisons for speaking out against the government or doing something "unpatriotic"?

http://i.mktw.net/newsimages/news/infographics/china_deficit_20030813_221x150.gif


Have your parents explained to you this picture?
http://bill.of.rights.faithweb.com/tanks.gif


Yea, i've seen that picture. It was pretty funny.


I agree, things like the Tianmen Square massacre have happened, but China has changed, though very, very slowly. It's much different now from the time of the Cultural Revolution. You might as well say the Cold War is going on still.
(though they still arrest people for going agaist the government, but hey, the U.S is doing that too)

Times Change. People Change. Countries Change.


(lol i have no idea why i'm defending China, I guess i'm as much of a nationalist as you are)

Yea, i've seen that picture. It was pretty funny.


I agree, things like the Tianmen Square massacre have happened, but China has changed, though very, very slowly. It's much different now from the time of the Cultural Revolution. You might as well say the Cold War is going on still.
(though they still arrest people for going agaist the government, but hey, the U.S is doing that too)

Times Change. People Change. Countries Change.


(lol i have no idea why i'm defending China, I guess i'm as much of a nationalist as you are)


http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/multimedia/pictures/asia/china/gif/tank.gif

China is still an enemy of the United States. They have not made any changes since 1989 apart from a few to improve PR.

China has not had a government change since Mao took over in 1949.

China is not capitalist, they only legalized private ownership of property 6 months ago. If China is so capitalist, why do they still oppose Taiwan, which is truly capitalist. The capitalist party you speak of died in 1989.

"Seen from the changes in the world situation and the United States' hegemonic strategy for creating monopolarity, war is inevitable...We cannot avoid it. The issue is that the Chinese armed forces must control the initiative in this war....We must be prepared to fight for one year, two years, three years or even longer." Chi Haotian, Chinese Defense Minister, Cheng Ming, Hong Kong's newspaper, January 11, 2000

http://www.usvetdsp.com/boycott.htm

http://www.rsf.org/rsf/uk/imgCompress/camp_boycott_uk.jpg

Private Ownership has long been legal. They just recently legalized private businesses. They oppose taiwan because it is breaking away from them. Would the government oppose it when Hawaii tries to break away from the U.S.A.?

Chinese Patriotism is a common thing, but likewise they won't do anything to lose face. That's why they're hosting the 2008 Olympics. Why would they attack anyone? The whole world would be againist them

http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/multimedia/pictures/asia/china/gif/tank.gif

China is still an enemy of the United States. They have not made any changes since 1989 apart from a few to improve PR.

How the f*** is China an enemy?

It takes job, but so do a lot of other countries. Including Taiwan.

Based on Recent events, the enemy of the U.S. is terrorists

How the f*** is China an enemy?

It takes job, but so do a lot of other countries. Including Taiwan.

Based on Recent events, the enemy of the U.S. is terrorists

Taiwan doesnt aim nuclear weapons at the west coast and I consider any Asian country that takes our jobs an enemy.

How the f*** is China an enemy?
It takes job, but so do a lot of other countries. Including Taiwan.
Based on Recent events, the enemy of the U.S. is terrorists
The terrorists can not destroy the US. They can´t change the fact that the US is and remains the strongest country in the world. They are only destructive but not constructive.
China is constructive and it is a rising power.
It has the potential to become the number two in the world during the 21rst century.
So it is most likely that it is going to rival with the US. Both are natural enemies. That is all the experience of history that things are likely to develop in that way.
And there are many potential disagreements. The Taiwan question, the american presence in East Asia and also different geostrategic interests.
China alson needs to import more and more oil and gas.
Its growing needs are one reason for problems in the energy markets.

Chinese Patriotism is a common thing, but likewise they won't do anything to lose face. That's why they're hosting the 2008 Olympics. Why would they attack anyone? The whole world would be againist them
If Taiwan declared independence (formally) a war would happen. Otherwise certainly not one till 2008. But what is about afterwads?

And Germany had the 1936 Olympics. Those were shown to try and prove Germany had peaceful intentions.

"Buy American" sounds like a wonderful slogan, but like anything it is a two edged sword. Isloationism is not the answer to the global market. On the other hand abusers of the global market should neither be tollerated nor supported. I think some can validly argue that China is probably a good abuser of the global market.

That having been said, I have to disagree with those who would simply brand China a priah nation and isloate it from the world. China, while not improving as fast as some would like, is getting better every day. I recently heard a report that one of the byproducts of the Olympics in Beijing is that the public toilet system (previously no better than outhouses) which is necessary because there isn't really private toilet facilities in most city residences, is being upgraded to something almost tollerable to foreigners.

It really is not "Buy American." We need to "Sell American!"

Private Ownership has long been legal. They just recently legalized private businesses. They oppose taiwan because it is breaking away from them. Would the government oppose it when Hawaii tries to break away from the U.S.A.?

Chinese Patriotism is a common thing, but likewise they won't do anything to lose face. That's why they're hosting the 2008 Olympics. Why would they attack anyone? The whole world would be againist them

Taiwan has been indenedent since 1949 when the nationalists lost the civil war. Hawaii has been a state since 1959.

The terrorists can not destroy the US. They can´t change the fact that the US is and remains the strongest country in the world. They are only destructive but not constructive.
China is constructive and it is a rising power.
It has the potential to become the number two in the world during the 21rst century.
So it is most likely that it is going to rival with the US. Both are natural enemies. That is all the experience of history that things are likely to develop in that way.
And there are many potential disagreements. The Taiwan question, the american presence in East Asia and also different geostrategic interests.
China alson needs to import more and more oil and gas.
Its growing needs are one reason for problems in the energy markets.


If Taiwan declared independence (formally) a war would happen. Otherwise certainly not one till 2008. But what is about afterwads?


I see. Thanks for explaining everything.

China is/will be #2 nation, and will rival the U.S. for everything. But the U.S. still needs much more energy than China, but not as much raw materials.

I'm not sure what will truly happen if Taiwan declares independance. Maybe a war, but maybe not, with the U.S. backing Taiwan. But the threat of war is enough so Taiwan doesn't declare indepence (am i right? not a international relations major)

BTW, where are the U.S. nukes aimed at?

Taiwan has been indenedent since 1949 when the nationalists lost the civil war. CHina has been a state since 1959.

Taiwan has not yet declared independance, but has seperate embassies in countries around the world. Read above post.

I'm not sure what will truly happen if Taiwan declares independance. Maybe a war, but maybe not, with the U.S. backing Taiwan. But the threat of war is enough so Taiwan doesn't declare indepence (am i right? not a international relations major)

BTW, where are the U.S. nukes aimed at?

Yes, you are right. Democrats would back Taiwan and Bush wouldnt.

I'm sure they are aimed at Iran, Syria, North Korea, and China.

Chinese Patriotism is a common thing, but likewise they won't do anything to lose face. That's why they're hosting the 2008 Olympics. Why would they attack anyone? The whole world would be againist them

Berlin hosted the 1936 Games and then WWII started 3 years later! Just because a nation is hosting the Games, doesn't me crap. They are still violating human rights over there and they have done nothing to curtail it. Beijing will not show how poor their people are, they will not show where the political dissidents are, they will not show what really is going on.

I agree! Boycott Beijing!

Berlin hosted the 1936 Games and then WWII started 3 years later! Just because a nation is hosting the Games, doesn't me crap. They are still violating human rights over there and they have done nothing to curtail it. Beijing will not show how poor their people are, they will not show where the political dissidents are, they will not show what really is going on.

I agree! Boycott Beijing!

Where were the Olympics held before WWI?

Where were the Olympics held before WWI?

Stockholm Sweden in 1912!

I'm not sure what will truly happen if Taiwan declares independance. Maybe a war, but maybe not, with the U.S. backing Taiwan. But the threat of war is enough so Taiwan doesn't declare indepence (am i right? not a international relations major)

BTW, where are the U.S. nukes aimed at?

the US nukes are aimed at pretty much everywhere, exept of course america

and as for the guy who thinks that china are the enemy for stealing the americans jobs, wtf? i live in britain, and most of our manufacturing sector is dying out, or being transferred to other countries, why? because american componies are buying up our businesses and transferring the manufacturing, call centres, etc to places like india, but do you hear us saying india is our enemy because most of our call centres are now based there?...

Yes china is technichly a communist country, and it is definatly the second power in the world, but its version of communism is vastly different from the soviet version that people envision when they imagine communism, beijing has abount the same amount of capitailst and american advertising as New York! probobly more! the Chinese government want to be communist, but are gradully failing at bringing up their communist nation as probperly communist, and are realising they have to give in to at least some of their capitalist ideals to survive for the moment

Berlin hosted the 1936 Games and then WWII started 3 years later! Just because a nation is hosting the Games, doesn't me crap. They are still violating human rights over there and they have done nothing to curtail it. Beijing will not show how poor their people are, they will not show where the political dissidents are, they will not show what really is going on.

I agree! Boycott Beijing!

Thats different. (Nazi Germany to China)

China may be violating human rights, but brazil still has slavery, and in other countries it's a lot worse. Even in U.S. with Guantanamo and the Patriot Act. Beijing will not show how poor their people are? they will not show where the political dissidents are? When was the last time you've seen a country wanting to show these people? When was the last time these people have been shown by the international media during the olympics? When they violently protested, like in the munich games.

Yes china is technichly a communist country, and it is definatly the second power in the world, but its version of communism is vastly different from the soviet version that people envision when they imagine communism, beijing has abount the same amount of capitailst and american advertising as New York! probobly more! the Chinese government want to be communist, but are gradully failing at bringing up their communist nation as probperly communist, and are realising they have to give in to at least some of their capitalist ideals to survive for the moment

Exacly my point

Damn, Stckholm is freakin cold. I visited there when I lived in Europe, and I really don't think people should be swimming in that water. It isn't called the North Sea for nothin'!

But seriously, though wages in China may be enough to sustain life there, in other countries, such as Honduras, for example, they are not. The minimum average cost of living (that level at which you are hungry, but not starving) is $1.25 a day. The highest wages for factory labour in that country are about $0.80 per day. The average factory wages are far less than that. The average is about $0.25 per day. Which is funny, because each person working there makes (on average, and I will use the textile industry as an example) upwards of 200 t-shirts per day. The retail value of those t-shirts is usually $20.00! Each of those people is making $4,000 dollars of gross profit for the company every day! and getting paid what percentage of this?
.000625%!!!! What the fuck is wrong with those CEO's!?! What I'm wondering, is how anyone can justify capitalism, knowing any of this reality? Do you turn your head and look away? Do you put imagine a bag over the head of the worker? Do you fantasize about the T-shirt?

How can you justify cheap Consumerism?

Thats different. (Nazi Germany to China)

To a point yes, they are different. However, they are both regimes that suppress political freedom. The Brits tried to suppress our political freedom and we through them out of our country. Hopefully China moves beyond this and turns into a model nation, one based on human rights and not in violation of them

China may be violating human rights, but brazil still has slavery, and in other countries it's a lot worse.

True. However, they are not hosting the games. Brazil has changed. Do they still have slavery? I don't know. If they do then they should get rid of it. We did though it took a Civil War to do it.

Even in U.S. with Guantanamo and the Patriot Act.

However, we are not violating human rights. Yea some are but its not all of us as a whole. Its not the government that is doing it. There is a big difference between government ordered and individually doing it. The Patriot Act has NOT limited human rights nor violates it. You still needs warrents to do anything from tapping phone calls to arrests. Gitmo is where the terrorists are being held. They can still pray, eat, sleep and exercise. They are being treated in accordance under the Geneva Convention.

Beijing will not show how poor their people are? they will not show where the political dissidents are? When was the last time you've seen a country wanting to show these people? When was the last time these people have been shown by the international media during the olympics? When they violently protested, like in the munich games.

That is the point! A nation will show the glitz and glamour but if people know what is going on in China, they will see it for the farce it really is. As for Munich, don't mention this to the Israelis. A terrorists killed over a dozen Israeli athletes and officials. The Israeli that won its nation's first gold medal is taking it to the memorial in Tel Aviv.

Damn, Stckholm is freakin cold. I visited there when I lived in Europe, and I really don't think people should be swimming in that water. It isn't called the North Sea for nothin'!

But seriously, though wages in China may be enough to sustain life there, in other countries, such as Honduras, for example, they are not. The minimum average cost of living (that level at which you are hungry, but not starving) is $1.25 a day. The highest wages for factory labour in that country are about $0.80 per day. The average factory wages are far less than that. The average is about $0.25 per day. Which is funny, because each person working there makes (on average, and I will use the textile industry as an example) upwards of 200 t-shirts per day. The retail value of those t-shirts is usually $20.00! Each of those people is making $4,000 dollars of gross profit for the company every day! and getting paid what percentage of this?
.000625%!!!! What the fuck is wrong with those CEO's!?! What I'm wondering, is how anyone can justify capitalism, knowing any of this reality? Do you turn your head and look away? Do you put imagine a bag over the head of the worker? Do you fantasize about the T-shirt?

How can you justify cheap Consumerism?


you dont. you say DAMN THE CAPITALISTS, FORWARD WITH COMMUNISM!
and if people dont start to revolt, and insult you, you say it was a joke ;)

you dont. you say DAMN THE CAPITALISTS, FORWARD WITH COMMUNISM!
and if people dont start to revolt, and insult you, you say it was a joke ;)


Yeah, but I say that enough anyway :)
But seriously, I want someone to try to justify this. I'm not an idealistic Communist. I'm one of extremely logical (and violent) tendencies. All I'm showing right now is why Capitalism is bad. I could show you how Communism is good though! That would be very nice!

To a point yes, they are different. However, they are both regimes that suppress political freedom. The Brits tried to suppress our political freedom and we through them out of our country. Hopefully China moves beyond this and turns into a model nation, one based on human rights and not in violation of them

I agree. But what can i do? I'm not in the government. Human rights hopefully will change there, cause it'll be easier for me to defend China ;)

True. However, they are not hosting the games. Brazil has changed. Do they still have slavery? I don't know. If they do then they should get rid of it. We did though it took a Civil War to do it.

There is, but it's not government sanctoned. just another group of capitalists...

However, we are not violating human rights. Yea some are but its not all of us as a whole. Its not the government that is doing it. There is a big difference between government ordered and individually doing it. The Patriot Act has NOT limited human rights nor violates it. You still needs warrents to do anything from tapping phone calls to arrests. Gitmo is where the terrorists are being held. They can still pray, eat, sleep and exercise. They are being treated in accordance under the Geneva Convention.

We are not violating human rights as a whole. The government is.

That is the point! A nation will show the glitz and glamour but if people know what is going on in China, they will see it for the farce it really is. As for Munich, don't mention this to the Israelis. A terrorists killed over a dozen Israeli athletes and officials. The Israeli that won its nation's first gold medal is taking it to the memorial in Tel Aviv.

I know. That's why we supress them. so things like that don't happen. ;)



But truly, the right to free speech is inhibited, though only againist the government. Once, someone came over to my relatives house when i was there and preached to me about Jesus, and the holy spirit. It was very strange and unexpected.

OH, ok, time for my justification of why Communism is a good idea.

The idea Marx had about Communism was that it should be capitalism that everyone benefits from. Not following me so far? OK. Well, the only people who benefit in Capitalism are the ones who own the means of production. The average person in a company may get a bonus, but all of the best benefits will go to the Stockholders and the CEOs.

BUT...Communism is the idea of giving the means of production back to the worker! How, you may ask? By making the running of the company democratic, and by dividing the fruits of labour equally (or the money that is gotten from selling the labour). The democratic running is to give everyone the power. No longer do they have to have massive layoffs and make stupid, pointless products. What they make is all up to them!!! And dividing up the fruit equally will give the benefits of success back to the worker too!!! Imagine, the janitor in your company tooling around in a new BMW! That's the whole idea!!!

Now, when you look at that, doesn't properly run Communism look appealing? :O

I think we're way off topic, and so i'll leave.

BTW if you haven't figured it out, i am a nationalist, and proud of it! hence the name.

But China isn't responsible for the job loss. The big corperations are. Its another aspect of capitalism to fix. Don't blame us!

I agree. But what can i do? I'm not in the government. Human rights hopefully will change there, cause it'll be easier for me to defend China ;)

What can you do? Try to change things. If the people start to revolt, the center of power will shift and hopefully be a force for good. Change starts with one person or a group of people. Just make sure the government doesn't find out who you are or we'll never see you again.

There is, but it's not government sanctoned. just another group of capitalists...

Ok, now you've lost me with this comment. I'm assuming you mean people working for governments as slaves?

We are not violating human rights as a whole. The government is.

That is why China has a very bad human rights record. If it wasn't government sanctioned then they could get by but it isn't. Since the Government represents the people and the people are doing nothing, this means that the population is passively supporting what the government does. So yea you are in support of a government that violates human rights. I admire people that protest knowing that they could die due to regimes that don't allow free thought.

I know. That's why we supress them. so things like that don't happen. ;)

However, it did happen. If the government just let the protests happen and don't interfer by killing them then the government would be seen in a better light than it is.

But truly, the right to free speech is inhibited, though only againist the government. Once, someone came over to my relatives house when i was there and preached to me about Jesus, and the holy spirit. It was very strange and unexpected.

I hoped you listen. Dissent is the highest form of patriotism or so I've been told. If that is the case then the Liberal Wing of the Democratic party would restrict it since I bash them to no end. LOL!!! As for no free speech against the government, dissenting voices should be heard and not discouraged.

OH, ok, time for my justification of why Communism is a good idea.

The idea Marx had about Communism was that it should be capitalism that everyone benefits from. Not following me so far? OK. Well, the only people who benefit in Capitalism are the ones who own the means of production. The average person in a company may get a bonus, but all of the best benefits will go to the Stockholders and the CEOs.

BUT...Communism is the idea of giving the means of production back to the worker! How, you may ask? By making the running of the company democratic, and by dividing the fruits of labour equally (or the money that is gotten from selling the labour). The democratic running is to give everyone the power. No longer do they have to have massive layoffs and make stupid, pointless products. What they make is all up to them!!! And dividing up the fruit equally will give the benefits of success back to the worker too!!! Imagine, the janitor in your company tooling around in a new BMW! That's the whole idea!!!

Now, when you look at that, doesn't properly run Communism look appealing? :O

The only thing communism does is provide equal suffering. Under communism everyone would drive a Geo, not a BMW.

What can you do? Try to change things. If the people start to revolt, the center of power will shift and hopefully be a force for good. Change starts with one person or a group of people. Just make sure the government doesn't find out who you are or we'll never see you again.

LOL I dont live in China, i live in the U.S. I don't even speak the language well. Yet here i am defending it.

Ok, now you've lost me with this comment. I'm assuming you mean people working for governments as slaves?

No, other people have slaves and hide away in the South Brazil highlands. The Government is againist them. I guess it could be consided like a cult.

That is why China has a very bad human rights record. If it wasn't government sanctioned then they could get by but it isn't. Since the Government represents the people and the people are doing nothing, this means that the population is passively supporting what the government does. So yea you are in support of a government that violates human rights. I admire people that protest knowing that they could die due to regimes that don't allow free thought.

I'm not that brave..

However, it did happen. If the government just let the protests happen and don't interfer by killing them then the government would be seen in a better light than it is.

Sure, whatever

I hoped you listen. Dissent is the highest form of patriotism or so I've been told. If that is the case then the Liberal Wing of the Democratic party would restrict it since I bash them to no end. LOL!!! As for no free speech against the government, dissenting voices should be heard and not discouraged.

uh ok.

OH, ok, time for my justification of why Communism is a good idea.
The idea Marx had about Communism was that it should be capitalism that everyone benefits from. Not following me so far? OK. Well, the only people who benefit in Capitalism are the ones who own the means of production. The average person in a company may get a bonus, but all of the best benefits will go to the Stockholders and the CEOs.BUT...Communism is the idea of giving the means of production back to the worker! How, you may ask? By making the running of the company democratic, and by dividing the fruits of labour equally (or the money that is gotten from selling the labour). The democratic running is to give everyone the power. No longer do they have to have massive layoffs and make stupid, pointless products. What they make is all up to them!!! And dividing up the fruit equally will give the benefits of success back to the worker too!!! Imagine, the janitor in your company tooling around in a new BMW! That's the whole idea!!!Now, when you look at that, doesn't properly run Communism look appealing? :O

In communism everybody benifits because you recieve assistance by means of another persons work (you work for someone elses benefit). In capitalism the individual benifits from thier own work and you dont have to work for someone elses benefit. The next paragraph explains your answer to saying you benifit the rich dude at the helm of the company. (no shit its his company, or the share holders)

Before you start splattering on about "what about the minimum wage earner" , you get what you pay for. If your experienced at what you do and people see it as a larger commodity than another then your value goes up. Simple example here in Oregon. If your in the construction field you can make anywhere from just above minumum wage to an excess of 200$ an hour. Of course it all depends on what you do and what people value you at..... I know some carpenters that make anywhere from 12-50$ an hour. Shouldn't the more meticulous finish carpenter make more than the rough framer? Its like saying that the janitor should be worth the same as a surgeon.

So if you want communism then everyone is of equal value in the labor market. Compared to capitalism everyone is valued at what they are worth to the labor market. 'I' like being treated like 'I' am worth something over what someone else's worth is.

Tell all of that to the people after communism fell. Communism is a system which falls on itself. I like the capitalist system better.

I think we're straying from the topic here.

I believe we were talking about how one shouldn't buy foreign products because that would put money in the deep pockets of those greedy foreign people?

I completely agree! I mean, if they really want money so bad, they can make their own money, and stop trying to steal our money by selling us their evil foreign products.

And as for them stealing our jobs, I must say I find it very unsportsmanslike of them to lure our poor misguided companies to their countries with their low wages and long work hours. How dare they sink so low as to selfishly exploit our companies weakness for greater profits? That's just not playing the game!

That's why I say: Boycott all those filthy foreign products! Unless it's got "Made in Norway" on it, it's exploiting us noble, hard-working, honest and generally superior Norwegian people!

Well, I like it when it says "Made in USA"

only to the motherland of RUSSIA

que anthem

Taiwan has been indenedent since 1949 when the nationalists lost the civil war. Hawaii has been a state since 1959.
You miss the point entirely: There is the Peoples Republic of China and the Republic of China (Taiwan). By the way: The Peoples Republic claims to represent all of China (One-China-doctrine) and refuses to have relations to any country that has officialy diplomatic relations with the Republic of China. Even the US doesn´t have that since the PR China was more important in the Cold War against the Soviet than Taiwan. That was a very important thing that China sided here against the Soviets. The Chinese didn´t like the Soviet demand of supremacy and they broke ties with them already in the end of the 1950s. In 1969 there were also fights at the border on the Urumtschi (today Russian-chinese border).
Back to the Taiwan question. There are people in Taiwan who say: we are not China. Taiwan is not China - it has a seperate development and it should therefore be a seperate country. They want that Taiwan declares its independence as Taiwan and not the Republic of China. The opponents of that idea say: We are Chinese and if there is one day a democratic China Taiwan should reunify with it.
Taiwans population is almost evenly spliy among those to camps. The Kuomintang (spelling?) who actually founded the Republic of China (chinese nationalists) are of course against this independence idea, since they are chinese nationalists (ironically in that point the arch-enemy of Bejing is agreeing with it - however: the of course would like to have an unified China based on the ideas of the Kuomintang - up until then they want to keep Taiwan seperate from it - but not forever). The democratic party argues that it should be a seperate country - not just two states, but two nations and nationalities. So: no reunification under any circumstance since Taiwan is a different nation in their view. The current president belongs to this movement.
Bejing says that it is not going to accept if Taiwan declares this independence. They consider it as a break-away province. Any step which distances Taiwan more from China is not going to be accepted by it.
Those threads are very serious. And I have no doubt that they would act that way if Taiwan declared independence. However: Taiwan is acting rather careful now. None the less the leadership has not given up the idea of a change of the constituition of Taiwan which goes in the direction of defining it as Taiwanese (and not chinese).

Typical English hypocrite! Left out the 'Scots to crush' line. And stuff the Queen!


yeah, I don't remember any line about the Scots. P.S. If you don't like the Queen, then maybe you Scots should have tried a bit harder not to get conquered!!

Patriotic? I'll show you patriotic. (all arise)

God save our gracious Queen,
Long live our noble Queen,
God save The Queen.
Send her victorious,
Happy and glorious,
Long to reign over us:
God save The Queen.

O Lord our God, arise,
Scatter our enemies,
And make them fall;
Confound their politics,
Frustrate their knavish tricks;
On thee our hopes we fix:
God save us all.

Thy choicest gifts in store
On her be pleased to pour,
Long may she reign.
May she defend our laws,
And ever give us cause
To sing with heart and voice,
God save The Queen.



absolutely old chap! That'll teach johnny foreigner! Frustrate their knavish tricks!!

The Sex Pistols one is better.

yeah, I don't remember any line about the Scots. P.S. If you don't like the Queen, then maybe you Scots should have tried a bit harder not to get conquered!!

I happen to be half Scottish. I take offense to this, so please remove yourself from this thread. Otherwise I will go to the mods.