NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3624024.stm
Journalists report ongoing fighting in the school.
100 dead so far. And rising.

CNN report

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/09/03/russia.school/index.html

Russian sieges sure get messy!

I condem the actions of those terrorists. The Russian government had no choice than to use force.
Releasing terrorists from prison or something like that would only encourage more terrorist attacks.
I feel sorry for all the victims and hope that injured people recover soon.

At least 12 hostages where killed when the roof caved in. Which was probably a result of a rocket attack from attack helicopters.

I condem the actions of those terrorists. The Russian government had no choice than to use force.

Apparently the attack wasn't planned or ordered by Moscow. Heads will role for this.

I agree ... it had to happen

Best of luck to the survivors and injured parties

bump

Russian sieges sure get messy!
They sure are. But at least the army didn't gas them this time.
I wonder how this fiasco will bode for Putins popularity.

They sure are. But at least the army didn't gas them this time.

"We had to gas the hostages in order to save them" - very good logic, Mr Putin (sarcasm)

"We had to gas the hostages in order to save them" - very good logic, Mr Putin (sarcasm)
And with an experimental gas at that.

did the world outlaw sniper rifles or something, or is everyone completely inepyt at looking through a scope and holding a gun still and shooting some one.

Ok. So far over 150 hostages are dead. Over 600 wounded. 20 terrorists are dead. Among them 10 Arabs. And 2 more are still on the run.

Aslambek Aslachanow, an aid to President Putin, declared the attack was not planned. He went to Beslan for extra negotiations. The events that led to the attack hit the Russians by suprise.

At least 12 hostages where killed when the roof caved in. Which was probably a result of a rocket attack from attack helicopters.

Nope from the shrapnel wounds noted; it was blown from inside. They were using the typical bombs with nails, etc.

Only the roof was missing, the fact that only the roof fell suggests planted charges.

They sure are. But at least the army didn't gas them this time.
I wonder how this fiasco will bode for Putins popularity.

Actually it will help him.

One of our Russian workers suggested it.

And the simple fact this was a mission targeting children will automattically makes the Chechans look bad.

Actually it will help him.

One of our Russian workers suggested it.

And the simple fact this was a mission targeting children will automattically makes the Chechans look bad.
Yeah. Perhaps. But it would have helped him alot more with fewer or no casualties.

It's so sad that this happened. The victims are in my thoughts and prayers. As for the terrorists that have done this, they will pay dearly for this cowardly attack. I suspect that this is the work of that Chechen branch of al-Qaeda, too. They will pay.

The chechnyans, who are behind all of this, a merciless people who attack chilidren and innocents in Russia and why?
Because they want to be their seperate country...
But how can Russia do that if the Chechnyan province is right in the middle of the damm country???
They are also Muslim BTW - thus proving that muslim people are fucking around with everyone who is not of their own kind - wtf, can't they just pay attention to their own shit and shut the hell up?

Yeah. Perhaps. But it would have helped him alot more with fewer or no casualties.
It was probably unavoidable. The terrorists inside all blew themselves up. Even if there were fewer casualties, they'd later die from shrapenal wounds in the hospital.

The terrorists inside all blew themselves up.
No they didn't.

Yeah. Perhaps. But it would have helped him alot more with fewer or no casualties.

Well not really.

Think about it. You are in a bloody war and you have people saying "Maybe this isn't a good thing"

A bunch of children are taken hostage and then killed.

Odds are "What a bunch of animals, lets get them!"

Well not really.

Think about it. You are in a bloody war and you have people saying "Maybe this isn't a good thing"

A bunch of children are taken hostage and then killed.

Odds are "What a bunch of animals, lets get them!"
Yeah. But it's another debacle like the theatre siege. With many casualties. It might also have the opposite effect for Putin.

Russian school siege at a glance (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3624136.stm)

No they didn't.

If you are refering all the room to room fighting, you are right. Many were killed by the Russian Special Forces.

If you mean the terrroists didn't blow the roof, I think you are wrong.

An attack helicopter strike probably will have leveled the building if not knocked down walls. So far I am hearing only the roof fell so that suggests planted charges.

Reports say the explosions happened before the fighting.

There will be hell to pay for this and I don't think it's going to be Putin.....

If you are refering all the room to room fighting, you are right. Many were killed by the Russian Special Forces.
Thats what I meant.


An attack helicopter strike probably will have leveled the building if not knocked down walls. So far I am hearing only the roof fell so that suggests planted charges.
Well, thats what a German reporter on site said. He said it may have been an attempt to gain acces through the roof.



There will be hell to pay for this and I don't think it's going to be Putin.....
No. But the heads of several security officials will role.

No they didn't.
Well they were forced to enter the building due to those initial explosions. If I commanded that unit, I would've ordered my troops to go in as well.
And we can't jump to conclusions saying that the Russians collapsed the roof. It is possible that one of the explosions was a terrorist that positioned himself on the rafters. It'd be a failsafe way to make sure all the hostages died if something goes wrong.

What people aren't mentioning is the fact that we are dealing with the RUSSIANS here. This isn't the United States, they will not wait weeks to go off and attack their adversary, especially considering they have a very good idea of whom it was (who is it always?). I fear the coming of major bloodshed to the Chechnyans, followed by yet another declaration that the West is out to kill all Muslims (Chechnya=Muslim area), and further foolish calls for jihad.

The cycle goes on, and the Muslim world falls further into bloodshed.

(On a side note, it is interesting too note how many of the world's conflicts are currently involving Muslims. Although it is politically incorrect to say Islam is the source of this violence, its hard to dispute what is going on in the Muslim world)

What people aren't mentioning is the fact that we are dealing with the RUSSIANS here. This isn't the United States, they will not wait weeks to go off and attack their adversary, especially considering they have a very good idea of whom it was (who is it always?). I fear the coming of major bloodshed to the Chechnyans, followed by yet another declaration that the West is out to kill all Muslims (Chechnya=Muslim area), and further foolish calls for jihad.

The cycle goes on, and the Muslim world falls further into bloodshed.

(On a side note, it is interesting too note how many of the world's conflicts are currently involving Muslims. Although it is politically incorrect to say Islam is the source of this violence, its hard to dispute what is going on in the Muslim world)



Islam is the source of the huge majority of the world's terrorist acts. What has Islam got against the living? Muslims seem to like death more than life. If that is so, may I suggest they be a bit more selfish and just kill themselves without taking non-Muslims with them. I'm sure the whole world would be most grateful!

"We had to gas the hostages in order to save them" - very good logic, Mr Putin (sarcasm)

The sad thing is that a lot of people think hostage situations get solved as easily as in the movies. Well, the fact is the terrorists had a mass of explosives, and any other option to go in would endanger the whole building. It was the most logical thing to do. Now pray tell what better idea would you come up with?

What people aren't mentioning is the fact that we are dealing with the RUSSIANS here. This isn't the United States, they will not wait weeks to go off and attack their adversary, especially considering they have a very good idea of whom it was (who is it always?). I fear the coming of major bloodshed to the Chechnyans, followed by yet another declaration that the West is out to kill all Muslims (Chechnya=Muslim area), and further foolish calls for jihad.

The cycle goes on, and the Muslim world falls further into bloodshed.

(On a side note, it is interesting too note how many of the world's conflicts are currently involving Muslims. Although it is politically incorrect to say Islam is the source of this violence, its hard to dispute what is going on in the Muslim world)
WTF? God, so many people are so uninformed about the whole Chechen conflict. Newspaper sensationalism doesn't help either. The result is most Americans think that Chechnya is like Iraq. Well its not. Chechnya does not "equal" Muslim area. There is a large population of non-muslim Russians. I could be more likened to say Mexicans in South Texas, Arizona, NEw Mexico, declaring their independence.

And who the hell would wait for weeks in a situation when the terrorists are not giving the hostages food and water. Think man!

The Russians were too hasty. They should have waited. Their first priority is to protect Russian lives, not make a political statement.

Many of you pointed out how Chechnya is Muslim. The conflict has only recently become a rallying point for the jihadists. The war itself began under the Yeltsin administration when the Chechens themselves kicked out the Russians in a revolution for Chechen independence. Though Putin, under Yeltsin, wanted war, Yeltsin heeded America, which called for withdrawal. It was later decided by Putin that Russia should retake Chechnya lest the remaining member states of the Russian Federation decide to revolt. In exchange for Russian overlooking US encroachment into central Asia, the US does not question Russias actons in Chechnya. Since then, much of Chechnya has been obliterated by the Russians and the scale of carnage is, for the most part, unknown as Russia does not allow any kind of media into and out of the region, though occasionally reports leak out of Russian human rights atrocities, executing all the men of combat age in a village, for example. It is perhaps the least reported conflict in the world.

With the destruction of the Chechen rebels, the conflict came into the view of predominantly Arab Islamists, who hijacked the war for their jihadist purposes. Following Afghanistan, they have a long gripe with what they see as the Russian "aetheists". They've since used the Chechen conflict as an excuse to launch terror attacks on Moscow and the Russian people.

My suggestion to you all: do your homework. This conflict is complicated and could have been resolved years ago if not for Putin's since of Russian pride. Russia is frightened by its rapid decline. It's lost its empire and Chechnya is for Russia what Hong Kong was for the British Empire. Relatively unimportant, but symbolic of what has been destroyed by history. Russia's inability to contain Chechnya is symptomatic of the end of the era of Soviet Imperialism.

I just feel sorry for those porr kids and women who had to die. I don't know the full facts yet so I'm not going to comment on what happened.

WTF? God, so many people are so uninformed about the whole Chechen conflict. Newspaper sensationalism doesn't help either. The result is most Americans think that Chechnya is like Iraq. Well its not. Chechnya does not "equal" Muslim area. There is a large population of non-muslim Russians. I could be more likened to say Mexicans in South Texas, Arizona, NEw Mexico, declaring their independence.

And who the hell would wait for weeks in a situation when the terrorists are not giving the hostages food and water. Think man!
Yes, and they are also a quiet minority. Its more like saying that Kurdish areas of Iraq aren't really Kurdish because they have Iraqis living there too. Furthermore, it is actually much more alike to Armenia than any other comparison. Its a "nation" of people, in a country of more ethnic groups than almost any other in the world minus the United States, whom are trying to gain independance from a nation that would be directly hurt by such an action. Except the difference is, this time, its the Armenianesque group that is acting through terrorist measures.

It's still early to know really what happened, but from what has been reported so far apparently the terrorists carried explosives with them and the two explosions that started all this very probably came from those explosives, maybe set-off accidentally. The explosion brought part of the roof down on top of many hostages. From the first reports it seems that the rest of the hostages tried to take advantage of the confusion to escape, but many were shot in the back.

After that the Russian army, who had been recovering the corpses of those killed during the initial takeover, decided to go in and storm the building.

Definitely a very sad turn of events. This won't help the Chechen cause at all, not even amongst other muslim regions except the most extremist.

However, there is still room for errors. Remember that right after the uprising in Dublin in 1916 (or 18?), the Irish weren't very simpathetic towards the rebels, but it was England's harsh response that created an ever growing conflict.

If Mr Putin can learn from history maybe that can be avoided here.

The Russians were too hasty. They should have waited. Their first priority is to protect Russian lives, not make a political statement.
Should have waited when an explosion occured inside the building... great idea...

Since then, much of Chechnya has been obliterated by the Russians and the scale of carnage is, for the most part, unknown as Russia does not allow any kind of media into and out of the region, though occasionally reports leak out of Russian human rights atrocities, executing all the men of combat age in a village, for example. It is perhaps the least reported conflict in the world.
Oh wow... human right atrocities "leak out". And SURELY most of the human rights atrocities are COVERED UP!... With any such a war there are bound to be things that are civil rights atrocities. Look at Iraq... Look at teh Middle East conflict. It's impossible to prevent. Least reported conflict in the world? You better get your facts straight, look into some developing countries and then tell me the Chechen conflict is the least reported.



My suggestion to you all: do your homework. This conflict is complicated and could have been resolved years ago if not for Putin's since of Russian pride. Russia is frightened by its rapid decline. It's lost its empire and Chechnya is for Russia what Hong Kong was for the British Empire. Relatively unimportant, but symbolic of what has been destroyed by history. Russia's inability to contain Chechnya is symptomatic of the end of the era of Soviet Imperialism.
Now look here Soviet Era Imperialism? Iraq is imperialism, but Chechnya is not imperialism. I doubt if a large chunk of the US decided to seceed, the American government would let it. I mean remember why the Civil War occurred. The South wanted to seceed... and did anyone dub it early American imperialism? No! This is just sensationalism of the media that has a lot of people thinking that hte Chechen conflict is something its not.

What makes me laugh is in situations of this (remember the Moscow theater) who is worse, the Russians or the Chechan terrorists. My initial vote goes right to the latter but the former are certainly not innocent. They wind up killing more friendlies than they do saving them in situations of these. I'm glad that they weren't on our side in Iraq and that they did not fight in Afghanistan because they'd wind up killing more of our guys than the enemy!

Yes, and they are also a quiet minority. Its more like saying that Kurdish areas of Iraq aren't really Kurdish because they have Iraqis living there too. Furthermore, it is actually much more alike to Armenia than any other comparison. Its a "nation" of people, in a country of more ethnic groups than almost any other in the world minus the United States, whom are trying to gain independance from a nation that would be directly hurt by such an action. Except the difference is, this time, its the Armenianesque group that is acting through terrorist measures.
WTF? Look at some demographics of the area. There is a significant proportion of Russians still living there. And I'm sure they don't want some radical Al Queda backed government to take over. Do you know how many Middle Eastern terrorists are going to the Chechen region? You think if Chechnya gained independence it would be some kind of grand democracy?

Russia does not allow any kind of media into and out of the region.
The German Weltspiegel made several reports about Chechnya.

What makes me laugh is in situations of this (remember the Moscow theater) who is worse, the Russians or the Chechan terrorists. My initial vote goes right to the latter but the former are certainly not innocent. They wind up killing more friendlies than they do saving them in situations of these. I'm glad that they weren't on our side in Iraq and that they did not fight in Afghanistan because they'd wind up killing more of our guys than the enemy!
Oooh and how many hostage situations occurred in Britain and the US that were on the same sclae and were solved with less bloodshed. You try and deal with a hostage situation in real life. Its not like the movies.

The Russians were too hasty. They should have waited. Their first priority is to protect Russian lives, not make a political statement.


Hmmm what about the fact that the "freedom fighters" would not allow medicine and water in? Children don't last long in with dehydration.

They played into the Russian hands. Nobody is going to justify a mission targeting children at their school.

My suggestion to you all: do your homework. This conflict is complicated and could have been resolved years ago if not for Putin's since of Russian pride. Russia is frightened by its rapid decline. It's lost its empire and Chechnya is for Russia what Hong Kong was for the British Empire. Relatively unimportant, but symbolic of what has been destroyed by history. Russia's inability to contain Chechnya is symptomatic of the end of the era of Soviet Imperialism.
http://www.cnn.com/1999/WORLD/europe/12/06/russia.chechnya.01/chechnya.grozny.russia.lg.jpg

That is a vital area. With that kind of wedge between the Black Sea provinces, and the Caspian sea provinces, Russia would lose vital commerical and transportational links. Furthermore, with Russian ambitions in the Middle East still a crucial part to the fragile collective psyche of the Russian people, the loss of this terrority would be a great blow to that psyche, and would likely cause the cry of independance to spring up among many other tiny nationalities (that in my view truly don't need their own country, nor can viably have one that is prosperous, and free).

there was no way out
the chechens are to blame

It's still early to know really what happened, but from what has been reported so far apparently the terrorists carried explosives with them and the two explosions that started all this very probably came from those explosives, maybe set-off accidentally. The explosion brought part of the roof down on top of many hostages. From the first reports it seems that the rest of the hostages tried to take advantage of the confusion to escape, but many were shot in the back.

After that the Russian army, who had been recovering the corpses of those killed during the initial takeover, decided to go in and storm the building.

Definitely a very sad turn of events. This won't help the Chechen cause at all, not even amongst other muslim regions except the most extremist.

However, there is still room for errors. Remember that right after the uprising in Dublin in 1916 (or 18?), the Irish weren't very simpathetic towards the rebels, but it was England's harsh response that created an ever growing conflict.

If Mr Putin can learn from history maybe that can be avoided here.

Sounds reasonable. However, even the Irish didn't target kids at their school.

Oooh and how many hostage situations occurred in Britain and the US that were on the same sclae and were solved with less bloodshed. You try and deal with a hostage situation in real life. Its not like the movies.

IT ISN'T?!?!?!?!?!?!?! :eek:

-goes into a fetal postion-

:p

did the world outlaw sniper rifles or something, or is everyone completely inepyt at looking through a scope and holding a gun still and shooting some one.


They threatened to kill 50 children ever time one of them were killed so sniping them would have been bad...As for the explosion its believed to be cuased by an explosion detonated from bombs strped to the terrorist..but i wouldn't dout the chopper suspect. The russians are REALLY bad at taking out terrorist...though i can't rangle them about it cuase i don't know what we would do here in the USA if that happened.

WTF? Look at some demographics of the area. There is a significant proportion of Russians still living there. And I'm sure they don't want some radical Al Queda backed government to take over. Do you know how many Middle Eastern terrorists are going to the Chechen region? You think if Chechnya gained independence it would be some kind of grand democracy?
Significant does not equate to meaningful. A vocal minority, i.e. the 30% of Chechnyans whom have polled as saying that the Russian Federation does not encompass Chechnya. That means there are 70% of Chechnyans whom do believe it does. Thereby the real question is what is the Federation's authority over Chechnya. That is where this quagmire comes from. We have the separitists fighting to end any connection, and we have the moderates unable to support either side because there is still the problem of Federation versus Empire. Chechnya is the Lebanon of the Russians (i.e. Lebanon under the Ottomans, the extent to which it was ruled, the special status entrusted to it in the mid 1800s, etc). The question isn't really true independance, its how much Moscow can control Chechnyas internal affairs.

As for democracy, no, I doubt that would happen. Democracy isn't a Muslim idea, nor something any Muslim nation has voluntarily created (Iran isn't democratic, don't even try and claim it is, and Egypt...Egypt is Egypt) a democracy, nor have any Muslim democracies truly worked. However, that is an entirely different issue.

Originally Posted by Chess Squares
did the world outlaw sniper rifles or something, or is everyone completely inepyt at looking through a scope and holding a gun still and shooting some one.


They threatened to kill 50 children ever time one of them were killed so sniping them would have been bad...As for the explosion its believed to be cuased by an explosion detonated from bombs strped to the terrorist..but i wouldn't dout the chopper suspect. The russians are REALLY bad at taking out terrorist...though i can't rangle them about it cuase i don't know what we would do here in the USA if that happened.

I also read they put kids in the windows to play "shields"

The number of terrorists also made it not feasible since you can't drop all 20+ in one action.....

They threatened to kill 50 children ever time one of them were killed so sniping them would have been bad...As for the explosion its believed to be cuased by an explosion detonated from bombs strped to the terrorist..but i wouldn't dout the chopper suspect. The russians are REALLY bad at taking out terrorist...though i can't rangle them about it cuase i don't know what we would do here in the USA if that happened.
Knowing us we'd try negotiations for far too long, then send in the SWAT teams, same as the Russians ended doing (though not by their own choice, they were hoping to negotiate further). No country can bow to terrrorists without just broadening their problems, and the worlds.
*Looks harshly at Spain, the Phillipines, and the like*

Significant does not equate to meaningful. A vocal minority, i.e. the 30% of Chechnyans whom have polled as saying that the Russian Federation does not encompass Chechnya. That means there are 70% of Chechnyans whom do believe it does. Thereby the real question is what is the Federation's authority over Chechnya. That is where this quagmire comes from. We have the separitists fighting to end any connection, and we have the moderates unable to support either side because there is still the problem of Federation versus Empire. Chechnya is the Lebanon of the Russians (i.e. Lebanon under the Ottomans, the extent to which it was ruled, the special status entrusted to it in the mid 1800s, etc). The question isn't really true independance, its how much Moscow can control Chechnyas internal affairs.

As for democracy, no, I doubt that would happen. Democracy isn't a Muslim idea, nor something any Muslim nation has voluntarily created (Iran isn't democratic, don't even try and claim it is, and Egypt...Egypt is Egypt) a democracy, nor have any Muslim democracies truly worked. However, that is an entirely different issue.
No it is part of the issue at hand. If Russia were to give Chechnya independence, there would be a radical Muslim government, which no doubt would spawn a brutal dictatorship. Civil rights in the middle east are horrendous, and here you bring up civil rights violations by the Russian troops. Thus those 30% (which is not so small of a minority I might add) knows that.

The Chechens sepratists cannot logically think out the consequences of their war for independence. I cannot believe that the whole mess can be labeled as Russian imperialism. A militant radical Muslim government in that area would benefit neither the people, nor the countries around it. Russia is simply trying to maintain order in the area.

That is a vital area. With that kind of wedge between the Black Sea provinces, and the Caspian sea provinces, Russia would lose vital commerical and transportational links.
Seeing that it's such a volatile area, with volatile borders, commerce is pretty damn difficult there anyway.

I simply don't see, other the Putin's nationalistic pride, why the Russian government wants Chechnya so badly. There are no unique resources of any value to Russia in the region, and the separatists are by no means a minority.

Furthermore, I don't see, from a logical standpoint, why Chechnya wants to succeed. They wouldn't survive, they have neither the organization, nor the capital required to live without substantial aid from other countries. And countries that support them have no aid to give.

Knowing us we'd try negotiations for far too long, then send in the SWAT teams, same as the Russians ended doing (though not by their own choice, they were hoping to negotiate further). No country can bow to terrrorists without just broadening their problems, and the worlds.
*Looks harshly at Spain, the Phillipines, and the like*

Probably not. If they were denying water and meds like these guys, we probably would have acted as well.

As to Spain; the government in place was not very well liked so the bombings was just the final straw.

As to the PI: they are not fully bending to the terrorists as they are fighting them back home right now.

Furthermore, I don't see, from a logical standpoint, why Chechnya wants to succeed. They wouldn't survive, they have neither the organization, nor the capital required to live without substantial aid from other countries. And countries that support them have no aid to give.

It's ancient history. You can look at the clanish mentality but if you want to look at recent times, start with Stalin moving a bunch of people around. Then they were allowed back to find their homes taken by other people.

But lets not hijack the thread. ;)

Oooh and how many hostage situations occurred in Britain and the US that were on the same sclae and were solved with less bloodshed. You try and deal with a hostage situation in real life. Its not like the movies.

Filling a theater with an opiate gas and then not telling the doctors what you used to saved the civilians is vastly different than cutting power, using tear-gas, or using sharpshooters.

Probably not. If they were denying water and meds like these guys, we probably would have acted as well.

As to Spain; the government in place was not very well liked so the bombings was just the final straw.

As to the PI: they are not fully bending to the terrorists as they are fighting them back home right now.
Oh I applaude the Phillipines for its work at home, however, that is very different from abroad, which is where the whole "world" part comes into play. The moment you agree to hostage takers demands you increase their motive to take hostages.

Seeing that it's such a volatile area, with volatile borders, commerce is pretty damn difficult there anyway.

I simply don't see, other the Putin's nationalistic pride, why the Russian government wants Chechnya so badly. There are no unique resources of any value to Russia in the region, and the separatists are by no means a minority.

Furthermore, I don't see, from a logical standpoint, why Chechnya wants to succeed. They wouldn't survive, they have neither the organization, nor the capital required to live without substantial aid from other countries. And countries that support them have no aid to give.
Look at what you just said, and then look back to what i've stated before. Only 30% of Chechnyans are separatist, the other 70% state that Chechnya is part of the Russian federation. The question is really Moscow's power over Chechnyan internal affairs. As for its volatile nature, going through a volatile area is still more profitable than being forced to go all the way around it.

As for the Chechnyans part of your statements, notice how 70% don't want to be forced to try and survive on their own?

Well, thats what a German reporter on site said. He said it may have been an attempt to gain acces through the roof.
There's probably a lot of confusion right now. Wait until tommarow, when they'll know more about what's happening.


No. But the heads of several security officials will role.
Perhaps a few, but they never do. At worst, a low-ranking commander takes the bullet for higher-ups, in this case, the Kremlin.

Look at what you just said, and then look back to what i've stated before. Only 30% of Chechnyans are separatist, the other 70% state that Chechnya is part of the Russian federation. The question is really Moscow's power over Chechnyan internal affairs. As for its volatile nature, going through a volatile area is still more profitable than being forced to go all the way around it.
That may be true, but I've always been under the strong impression that the majority were seperatists. Do you have a source on those numbers?

The chechnyans, who are behind all of this, a merciless people who attack chilidren and innocents in Russia and why?
Because they want to be their seperate country...
But how can Russia do that if the Chechnyan province is right in the middle of the damm country???
I don't know if Chechnya is surrounded on all sides by other Russian provinces, but I do know that Vatican City (the smallest country in the world) is contained wholly within the city limits of Rome.

Let me say that again, because this is a potentially confusing concept: Vatican City is physically inside Rome, but is not politically a part of Italy.

So, it is possible for one country to completely surround another.

--The Democratic States of Cogitation

...

They are also Muslim BTW - thus proving that muslim people are fucking around with everyone who is not of their own kind - wtf, can't they just pay attention to their own shit and shut the hell up?
You might want to calm down a bit. Just a piece of advice.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Game Moderator

did the world outlaw sniper rifles or something, or is everyone completely inepyt at looking through a scope and holding a gun still and shooting some one.

Yeah, what the Hell happened to the Russian army's world famous X-Ray Vision squad? :rolleyes:

Islam is the source of the huge majority of the world's terrorist acts. What has Islam got against the living? Muslims seem to like death more than life. If that is so, may I suggest they be a bit more selfish and just kill themselves without taking non-Muslims with them. I'm sure the whole world would be most grateful!

For god's sake, its not Muslims in general. I dont really know, but I think the middle east are turning to terrorism due to the shadow American presence. And, of course, the fact America uses a lot more easources than it needs. It just so happens a lot of them are Muslims. So please, dont think just because you're Muslim means you're a terrorist.

Yeah, what the Hell happened to the Russian army's world famous X-Ray Vision squad? :rolleyes:
they cant afford windows in russia? poor broke country

addition: dont we have stuff that like sees heat..?

x-ray vision squad whats that i have never heard

For god's sake, its not Muslims in general. I dont really know, but I think the middle east are turning to terrorism due to the shadow American presence. And, of course, the fact America uses a lot more easources than it needs. It just so happens a lot of them are Muslims. So please, dont think just because you're Muslim means you're a terrorist.

Well I think part of the problem is that many muslims to "look the other way"

I have a few at work and I hear them denounce evil actions of the radicals but in many cases there will be the trailing "but" at the end with the subtle "understanding" for the reason.

How many Muslims have actually "rated" this people out. They are an affront ot the teachings of the Profit and yet how many turn them in?

No matter the situation or the people involved; there is no justification for a mission targeting children in their school.

Well I think part of the problem is that many muslims to "look the other way"

I have a few at work and I hear them denounce evil actions of the radicals but in many cases there will be the trailing "but" at the end with the subtle "understanding" for the reason.

How many Muslims have actually "rated" this people out. They are an affront ot the teachings of the Profit and yet how many turn them in?

No matter the situation or the people involved; there is no justification for a mission targeting children in their school.

I'm not justifing the attack, and I'm sure not many Muslims will. But there is always the fanatical minority.

This conflict between Russia and Chechnya has been going on since the 1700's.

And no thanks to the mass deportation and genocide inflicted upon the Chechen people, is it any wonder they're pissed?

And the Russian's were justified in using force?
And who was it that said, Israel was a terrorist nation? :rolleyes:
Check out Russia! :eek:

I'm a big fan of Russia's "kill everyone" strategy.

This conflict between Russia and Chechnya has been going on since the 1700's.

And no thanks to the mass deportation and genocide inflicted upon the Chechen people, is it any wonder they're pissed?

And the Russian's were justified in using force?
And who was it that said, Israel was a terrorist nation? :rolleyes:
Check out Russia! :eek:

So that justifies a mission against kids in school?

So that justifies a mission against kids in school?

Nothing justifies anything, it's doesn't matter who's right. Just who wins.

Nothing justifies anything, it's doesn't matter who's right. Just who wins.
That goes pretty much for every conflict.

they cant afford windows in russia? poor broke country

addition: dont we have stuff that like sees heat..?

Yes but those terrorists, evil geniuses that they are, they don't stand at the window and pose so much.

And when a few dozen terrorists have a few hundred hostages, shooting at heat signitures is not a really good idea.

It is a truly disgusting and cowardly act in the terrorists' part. No cause, to my mind, is worth the slaughter of innocent and defencless civilians - especially children. It’s just a very grim reminder that the world is getting bloodier and the terrorists are increasing the scale of their operations.

We have to keep up the war on terror, all nations, that care for safety and stability in the world, have to.

It appears most of you are woefully underinformed on the basics of this conflict in recently years.

Those saying give Chechnya independence....the Russians did just that, pulling out in 1996 after a disastrous war and giving the region virtual autonomy. What did the Chechnyans do? They proceeded to invade bordering Russian provinces, kidnap people, kill people, and then committed terrorist acts in Russia. This culminated in several apartment complex bombings in Moscow in 1999, and thus Putin sent the Russian Army back in.

Alright, as for the Theater Siege...do you people realize that 52 terrorists had booby-trapped the whole damn theater to blow? The fact that the Russians got over 2/3 of the hostages out, killed every last terrorist, without losing a man in assault force, is rather impressive considering the circumstances. Things don't work out in real life like something out of a Tom Clancy novel. Only the Israelis have pulled off hostage rescue opperations on such a massive scale, and that was against a dozen terrorists at most with an elite force.

Today at this school, these terrorists held over a thousand people packed into a gym, most of them children; and wired themselves and the perimeter to blow the whole complex to rubble. Understand, these terrorists did not allow any food or water in to the children, they made them stand against the windows...these aren't stupid terrorists here, and they've no qualms against killing every last child to prove a point. Apparently they started gunning down hostages that tried to escape during an attempt by security forces to recover some bodies in the courtyard of the school; and I guess when fire was returned...as CNN, BBC, and other US news agencies are saying, one of the hostage takers blew his or herself up while standing near a group of hostages, and all hell broke loose... what I do not understand is how several of the terrorists broke out of the encirclement and made in partway through the town before being cornered and killed?...they think perhaps four may have eluded capture altogether...

Alright, as for the Theater Siege...do you people realize that 52 terrorists had booby-trapped the whole damn theater to blow? The fact that the Russians got over 2/3 of the hostages out, killed every last terrorist, without losing a man in assault force, is rather impressive considering the circumstances.

It would be more impressive if they hadn't used an experimental nervegas or at least had informed the medical teams about it.

Filling a theater with an opiate gas and then not telling the doctors what you used to saved the civilians is vastly different than cutting power, using tear-gas, or using sharpshooters.
Cutting power=kaboom
Using tear gas... works too slowly thus kaboom
Sharpshooters... yeah... all at the same time... because they're standing right at the windows. Sorry... but those methods won't work...

It was the best possible idea at a time where one couldn't take the time to perfect some great rescue...

I do not think there was any major mistake in teh way the theatre was recaptured.

they cant afford windows in russia? poor broke country

addition: dont we have stuff that like sees heat..?
Dude... having thoroughly researched through the wall tech... our American government is way too slow to implement effective technologies that WORK and have been around since the 90s.

There are already perfected systems that function much better than heat and night vision, which are so outdated compared to current tech levels. And we have the money for it... but damn its... crazy...

And airport scurity... still so damn primitive... its just so frustrating...

I'm a big fan of Russia's "kill everyone" strategy.
Well, look at it this way... they're wired with explosives... there are a lot of them... would you rather they attempt to restrain each one?

And in the theatre operation... would you want to handcuff each one and hope those others dont wake up and blow up the entire place??!!

This naivete of both Europe and the US comes from a lack of experience in dealing with terrorist hostage situations. WE assume that things can end up so great at teh end of it... no hostages dead and all the terrorists arrested...

Well, look at it this way... they're wired with explosives... there are a lot of them... would you rather they attempt to restrain each one?

And in the theatre operation... would you want to handcuff each one and hope those others dont wake up and blow up the entire place??!!

This naivete of both Europe and the US comes from a lack of experience in dealing with terrorist hostage situations. WE assume that things can end up so great at teh end of it... no hostages dead and all the terrorists arrested...
Your right we do presume that. It's from reading all the Tom Clancy books and watching James Bond movies where just about everything goes Okay.

Your right we do presume that. It's from reading all the Tom Clancy books and watching James Bond movies where just about everything goes Okay.
Exactly.

Looking at the papers today, around 200 dead, and 600 wounded. 2 terrorist captured alive.

Looking at the papers today, around 200 dead, and 600 wounded. 2 terrorist captured alive.
It is indeed a tragedy.

That school was probably Russia's 9/11... Sure the casualty numbers are less... but it was an elementary school damnit.

This was a horrendous atrocity that will live in infamy.

It is indeed a tragedy.

That school was probably Russia's 9/11... Sure the casualty numbers are less... but it was an elementary school damnit.

This was a horrendous atrocity that will live in infamy.
It probably was, why people would sink to such lows as killing children I don't know, pure evil.

I don't know what the blasted hell were these bastards thinking. I really don't.

I don't know what the blasted hell were these bastards thinking. I really don't.
Such men think not. They are deluded with a sense of self righteousness to a point where reality is nothing to them.

Such men think not. They are deluded with a sense of self righteousness to a point where reality is nothing to them.

they're all crazy. isn't it obvious enough that if we keep attacking each other the conflict will never end? they're so STUPID.

First of all - i think the typicall chechen strongly disagree with what happend. It's not part of the muslim religion to kill people, but we have to see what russian soldiers and hired mercenaries did in Chechenya. They killed so many people's in such brutal and inhuman ways in front of their realatives eyes. What would you think about russia if troops would first cut of your husband ears, then break of his left arm and at the end kill him? (I saw pictures of this man on german tv) I kind of understand that such horrible events can make people go crazy.

Of course I think everything must be done to stop these terrorists, but i think weapons won't work here - russia tried it far to long.

they're all crazy. isn't it obvious enough that if we keep attacking each other the conflict will never end? they're so STUPID.
It's the whole eye for a eye mentality, also everyone you kill, becomes another maryta

It's the whole eye for a eye mentality, also everyone you kill, becomes another maryta

Stupid. Stupid. Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.

And because of these atrocities, they havent come closer to independence but much MUCH further avay.

I think that there is noone today, that supports the Chechens "fight" for independence.

322 hostages dead. 155 children among them. 26 terrorists. And 10 soldiers, policemen and paramedics.

For MSN users: Please put a ROSE "(F)" infront of your name to show your sympathy for the hundreds of dead children in russia who have died in a terrorist act, i hope you find it in ur heart 2 do this !! paste this to all of your online contacts !!

322 hostages dead. 155 children among them. 26 terrorists. And 10 soldiers, policemen and paramedics.
I just heard that the storming of the school wasn't ordered by the Kremlin. But I'm sure that if I commanded that unit, I'd have ordered the same thing. The terrorists were beginning to blow themselves up.

I just heard that the storming of the school wasn't ordered by the Kremlin. But I'm sure that if I commanded that unit, I'd have ordered the same thing. The terrorists were beginning to blow themselves up.
I agree they had no choice.

I agree they had no choice.
Yes. Who was it that said war was too important to be left to the politicians? I, of course, don't agree with that, but it has some truth to it. If the terrorists blew themselves up, and someone told the Kremlin, they'd just bumble around until all the hostages were dead. At least the vast majority were saved, and if you ask me, this means the Russian army won. It was better than our response on 9/11. It took thirty minutes for the order to scramble fighters to get from the White House to the pilots, and by then, all the planes were down.

The death toll has now reached 330, over half of them children.

Dear God, what a disaster....

Can anyone here step forward and claim they have any sympathy left for the Chechen separatist movement?

It's worse then 9/11, they were mostly children! :(

It's worse then 9/11, they were mostly children! :(
In terms of human life lost, no it's not worse than 9/11.

However, I agree that the amount of inhumanity and evil required to carry out this terrorist operation was, possibly, greater. The 9/11 hijackers didn't see their victims in the WTC. These Chechen terrorists shot and blew up bombs in the children. They were more like Nazis.

Dear God, what a disaster....

Can anyone here step forward and claim they have any sympathy left for the Chechen separatist movement?

With a russian name like yours, this has to be difficicult. :rolleyes:


I see that most of the victimes are natives of the region, so again, terrorists just behaved the same as the Russian barbars that raped and killed complete villages, including the children (but most Western/Russian posteers seem to forget this fact).

Hate will never be the sollution and after all the mass killing and state terrorisme of old KGB scum Putin's gangsters in uniform, we could expect that people that suffer the lose of their complete familly (murder, kidnaping and killing in Russia's killing fields;, rape aso.) can easaly be influenced to commit such barbary for their cause.

State terrorists like Puttin and the terrorists on the field, weather they have a "russian" or "Caucasian" origin and regardless their belief are to dumb to understand that they will not gain sympathy or will be abble to negociate with each other when they act like here.
Problem is that only a small groop of western people als know the huge killing/raping and the killing fields in the area there.

I landed in Mineralny Vodjny, were we allways land, for our climbing expedition at Elbruz in the Caucassus in june this summer with French and some US clients and during our Van Tour and hiking Tour till basecamp we had a good example of the same stuff but now done by Russian uniforms. In a village, a certain terrorist named X was searched in the houses by Russian troops. When they did not find the person, they set fire on 8 of the houses and we heared shots each time they came out. We saw later that they had killed complete families, children included. The village oldest was hanged before the crowd that was driven together and obliged to see the hanging.

Most important thing of all, our Lada Niva was just stoped at the entrance of the village and they even did not care that we saw everything, they asked for our ID, forbid us to snap photo's and asked the local "protection" money wich was for us: 10€/person. They were absolutely not anoyed that we saw everything.

So I can imagine that people can be influenced, set on drugs and made crazy enough to kill schoolchildren, very easy...

With a russian name like yours, this has to be difficicult. :rolleyes:


I see that most of the victimes are natives of the region, so again, terrorists just behaved the same as the Russian barbars that raped and killed complete villages, including the children (but most Western/Russian posteers seem to forget this fact).

Hate will never be the sollution and after all the mass killing and state terrorisme of old KGB scum Putin's gangsters in uniform, we could expect that people that suffer the lose of their complete familly (murder, kidnaping and killing in Russia's killing fields;, rape aso.) can easaly be influenced to commit such barbary for their cause.

State terrorists like Puttin and the terrorists on the field, weather they have a "russian" or "Caucasian" origin and regardless their belief are to dumb to understand that they will not gain sympathy or will be abble to negociate with each other when they act like here.
Problem is that only a small groop of western people als know the huge killing/raping and the killing fields in the area there.

I landed in Mineralny Vodjny, were we allways land, for our climbing expedition at Elbruz in the Caucassus in june this summer with French and some US clients and during our Van Tour and hiking Tour till basecamp we had a good example of the same stuff but now done by Russian uniforms. In a village, a certain terrorist named X was searched in the houses by Russian troops. When they did not find the person, they set fire on 8 of the houses and we heared shots each time they came out. We saw later that they had killed complete families, children included. The village oldest was hanged before the crowd that was driven together and obliged to see the hanging.

Most important thing of all, our Lada Niva was just stoped at the entrance of the village and they even did not care that we saw everything, they asked for our ID, forbid us to snap photo's and asked the local "protection" money wich was for us: 10€/person. They were absolutely not anoyed that we saw everything.

So I can imagine that people can be influenced, set on drugs and made crazy enough to kill schoolchildren, very easy...
As we've seen, the Kremlin isn't as all controlling of their military as we'd like to think. The entire chain of command is corrupt, from the FSB and Kremlin right down to the footsoldier himself. That's the real problem here, that the Kremlin can't control the military. I'm sure Putin, Fradkov, Ivanov, and others would never order such a thing.

Yes. Who was it that said war was too important to be left to the politicians? I, of course, don't agree with that, but it has some truth to it. If the terrorists blew themselves up, and someone told the Kremlin, they'd just bumble around until all the hostages were dead. At least the vast majority were saved, and if you ask me, this means the Russian army won. It was better than our response on 9/11. It took thirty minutes for the order to scramble fighters to get from the White House to the pilots, and by then, all the planes were down.

Agreed. I would have ordered the assult especially when they started shooting at fleeing children.

It's easy to arm-chair moralize and armchair strategise but the facts are that far more would have been dead if that sat back and waited for the shooting.

What does it say for man when missions are planned at children in school?

So I can imagine that people can be influenced, set on drugs and made crazy enough to kill schoolchildren, very easy...

Sorry Basil the history is a little more then that. I can't go into it but we have a person in our company just a stones throw from the town.

He gave us the run down of events back to the time of Stalin, to the Chechen fellow that took over a town, the history of the Ingush, etc. etc.....

The Russians did bad things. Does the justify what the Chechans did?

As far as I am concerned they invalidated any claims they had.

There is not justification for planning and executing a mission only at children.

Even with all the evil the Isralies have done, you can't find a mission that is only targeting children.

Agreed i think i would have ordered the assult at that point also, though as far as i can tell no one seems to have ORDERED the assult it just seems to have occured. There was everything from local milita forces to special forces their and it seems that no-one really ordered the assult but rather each little group acted on its own.

Indeed it might have been better if some had ordered it as it then might have procedded quickers and hopefully with less casualties.


ON the point of do i have anysymptathy with the chetcin seperatist movement, yes i still do.

Now before anyone shouts at me!, its important to differenchiate between the various rebel groups in chetchina who want a free nation, and the much nasteir groups who have declared a jhiad.

As one correspondant put it these groups of the last catagry would have absoultly no idea what to do with chetichain if it was handeded too them.


Of course a highly cynicall point of view registers two points, first for putin how helpfull is it for him if he keeps this looking like an international terrioirst group -- helps with the old war on terror. Sound much better than a rebel group who want freedom from a central state.

Sadly we can't ask the chetchins themselves what they want, except i presume to stop being very poor and being shot at.

The other very cycnical point might be this that, one soultion that occurs is the give chetichina its freedom i wonder who these groups would attack then?, would they find a new cause or stop attacking?


p.s. sorry for anyone who can spell it for mangling the name chetichina

Then it comes to brutal terrorist atacks like this you need to both condemn the acts and the people behind them but also try to create some understanding why this acts occure. Because people is not useally just pure evil they have reason behind them. Some of those reason can you have sympathy with like for example fighting for freedom but can of course not be excuse for bloody terrorist acts against civilians. So you should punish the people responsible for the atacks. But also fight some of the reason behind like for example poverty and lack of freedom and human rights. That will of course not stop all atacks, but it will likely decrease the number of atacks.

Sorry Basil the history is a little more then that. I can't go into it but we have a person in our company just a stones throw from the town.

He gave us the run down of events back to the time of Stalin, to the Chechen fellow that took over a town, the history of the Ingush, etc. etc.....

.

Well, I' ve been the region since 1996 very often, so better read the post before starting to quote.

Apparently the explosions that made the Russian soldiers attack where the result of anti-personal mines. In a video filmed by the terrorists you could see how they where standing on mines. Thereby activating them. Like a deadmans switch. Something went wrong during the changing of the guard and some mines blew up.

Apparently the explosions that made the Russian soldiers attack where the result of anti-personal mines. In a video filmed by the terrorists you could see how they where standing on mines. Thereby activating them. Like a deadmans switch. Something went wrong during the changing of the guard and some mines blew up.
I have seen some pictures today. I have to say that it is really barbaric and diabolic how those terrorists acted. Wires everywhere leading to explosives, terrorists obviously standing on anti-personal mines, mines and explosives everywhere. It is clear: those bastards wanted a bloodbath and the did a bloodbath. I wonder that actually most hostages could be saved from that.
This barbaric act shows the destructive nature of islamists terrorism and the thread especially non-muslim countries are facing: Russia, India, European countries, the US and many others - we are all threatened by this islamists terrorists. We may sometimes disagree what is the best step to battle it. But we need to work together now and to leave past differences aside. We have to work together more closely in the war against international terrorism.

Shocking revelations have come out about the vicious Islamist assault on a Russian school which left over 300 people -- mainly children -- dead.

According to The People, a UK daily, the Chechen separatist Muslims dragged off young White girls and raped them during the three days the 'holy warriors' held the school. The mother of a twelve-year-old female survivor sobbed: "She told me that several 15-year-old girls were raped. She heard their terrible cries and screams when the terrorists took them to a room close to the gym."

Rape is a constant of Islamic warfare, which sees non-Muslim women and children as loot to be sold into slavery. The infamous harems of the Turkish Ottoman Empire -- which waged war against Europe for hundreds of years -- were filled with White sex slaves. Today Chechens are infamous for running prostitution rings in Russia and elsewhere in Europe, as is the Albanian Muslim Kosovo Liberation Army, NATO's allies who now serve as police in occupied Kosovo, which they have ethnically cleansed of Serbs.
CONTINUED:http://nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=3750


THE FOLLOWING PRETTY MUCH SAYS MY FEELINGS AND PERSPECTIVE ON THE SITUATION

Being that the bulk of our own European governments are actively attempting to destroy the peoples they are supposed to be representing-remember Antonio Gramsci and his "march thru the institutions"-they probably see these Chechen terrorists as "doing the Lord's work."

Why does the French government let in millions of people who hate them against the wishes of their own citizenry? Why do the British, Swedes, the US?..It's the same. It was the US governent that let in the 19 hijackers of 911 thru ridiculously easy immigration policies, this after Islamics attempted to blow up the Towers in '93.

A lot of people want Russia to give in to the terrorist demands and leave a part of Russian territory - Chechnya, which incidently was given de facto independence in 1996, but in 1999 Chechen terrorists invaded the Russian republic of Dagestan and began terrorist attacks in Moscow and throughout Russia (I clearly recall the bombings of the apartment buildings - over 500 Russians dead in total), which percipitated renewed Russian military action against them


in all frankness, part of the problem the West has had with Muslims and much of the rest of the world is the tendency to handle every situation with kit gloves, as if they're trying to maintain some false image of "fairness" and "compassion" that nobody believes anyway.

Frankly, we've all gone soft. Would we have put up with any of this crap 100 years ago? Would the Russians have put up with it? Not likely. There would have been no negotiations, no sweet-talking, no embracing of "diversity," no quarter, no mercy. They would have come down like a sledgehammer on them, and they would have made no apologies for it.

The status of Chechnya within the Russian Federation might be loosely comparable to that of an Indian reservation in the USA. They were never an independent, sovereign "country" by any reasonable standard, although they were granted a certain level of self-rule and autonomy from the central government. This whole thing has been because they didn't want to be just an "autonomous republic" - they wanted complete sovereignty and independence, just like the former republics of the USSR got. I suppose they had to draw the line somewhere.

What was "anybody" (I'm presuming you mean the international community) supposed to do about it? Go to war with Russia (which would mean many more deaths, possibly millions) just to save the Chechens? It's just not worth it.


Chechnya is in a bad spot, but the Muslim question in the former USSR was something analysts figured (for decades now) would be a problem. They were right. I've read recent articles about escalating violence in Uzbekistan as well, but unlike Chechnya, they now enjoy full independence. Just as the Muslims have been sending similar messages to Americans. It's mostly been a dead-end for them, since they never manage to put a dent in the power structure or the mechanisms of the state; all they end up doing is making the average citizen enraged at them. The people in those theaters, planes, and schools were innocent; they have nothing to do with making policy. Meanwhile, the government, with all its tanks, planes, helicopters, missiles, and heavily-armed troops, is still there and still just as strong. The top-level of the hierarchy is still intact, so all these people end up doing is causing the masses to support the top-level of the hierarchy just that much more enthusiastically and zealously.

Muslims think that White countries are so weak today, since we care about the lives of children and others who may be taken hostage. They believe that our governments will give in to any demands they make, which is somewhat true to a point (a problem that a WN regime could very easily correct). However, overall, they should realize that White countries are not weak, nor are White people. The Russians have fought much more fierce enemies than the Chechens, and they've absorbed far greater losses in the process.

In terms of the big picture, terrorism is to a national government what a beesting is to the average person. It terms of actual, physical harm - it's absorbable, however sad and tragic it may be.


FROM WWW.NATIONALVANGUARD.ORG



'The Motherland is under attack.'

by Michael O'Meara

THE BLOODY ISLAMIC TERROR that struck the children -- the rising generation -- of Russia on Friday, 3 September 2004, was an attack not only on the one remaining White nation, but on White people everywhere.

When Putin said to his fellow Russians that "we ought to be together" in this moment of crisis, that our unity, our solidarity, and our courage will alone "enable us to defeat the enemy" and hold off the forces threatening the motherland, he could just as easily have said that unity, solidarity, and courage are now needed to save White people worldwide.

There should be no doubt about it. The Islamic murder of Russian school children in Beslan (as I write, 350 are reported dead, 500 hospitalized, and at least a hundred others in critical condition), was an aggression not only on Russia, but on the White race, which makes it qualitatively more serious than the Islamic terror of 9/11.


When the 19 operatives of bin Laden's al-Qa'ida converted civilian passenger planes into guided missiles to strike at the symbols of American hegemony, they committed an unspeakable atrocity, for their victims were not the political hirelings and Zionist wire-pullers responsible for occupying the Islamic "Holy Lands," but the little people, the secretaries and office workers, who were not important enough to warrant a Mossad warning.

If 9/11 was one of the more instructive demonstrations of what it means to live in the global village of our money-grubbing cosmopolitan elites, it was nevertheless not an explicit attack on Whites, but rather on America, which is not at all the same thing. For those who had their eyes shut in the 20th century, it will be a surprise to learn that America is no longer a White nation, but a multiracial empire controlled by a small number of non-White aliens and their White surrogates, who, by putting money above race and culture and willfully destroying the White population of North America for the sake of a genocidal notion of equality, are now trying to do to Arab and Muslim peoples what they have been doing to America's White population since at least 1933.

Nevertheless, when bin Laden attacked this empire on 9/11, we White nationalists did not, and could not, sympathize with him. The empire that seeks to denature and deculturate us might be our enemy. But unlike certain revolutionary nationalists in Europe, we do not believe the enemy of our enemy is our friend.

Contrary to the pronouncements of our hired politicians, it was not simply bin Laden's al-Qa'ida, but Islam as a non-White religion and as a non-White civilization that struck at us on 9/11. For 1400 years this faith born in the arid desert regions of Arabia has been driven by an unrelenting effort to subjugate the "Christian dogs," whose beliefs represented an affront to the Prophet's teachings.

Historically, we repelled Islam's conquering armies through force of arms. But today the convictions of Muslims, their will to power, and their life-force have become stronger than our own, as we succumb to a softening, obliterating materialism that makes us unconscious of who we are. Worse, our political leaders have left us not only defenseless, but, through uncontrolled immigration, vulnerable as never before.

White Christians and White pagans [and White nationalists, too. -- Ed.] can expect only doom and destruction under the Crescent. Liberals and multiculturalists who say otherwise, recounting fanciful stories about Islamic tolerance of other religions and peoples, are simply deceiving us. No Serb, Greek, or Armenian, whose people had the misfortune of living on the White borderlands with Islam, ever experienced this so-called tolerance.

While bin Laden attacked White America only indirectly, the terror attack on Beslan was a frontal assault on Russia as a White nation -- and, implicitly, on White European people everywhere -- and needs to be seen as such. Unless there is an immediate, worldwide, and categorical repudiation by Muslim peoples everywhere, this attack cannot but be interpreted as part of a larger genocidal assault on our people.

In posing demands that were impossible for the Russian government to accept -- demands that included the release of Chechen rebels and a cessation of the war against Russia's dismemberment -- the terrorists in effect consciously planned the murder of a thousand Russian schoolchildren. And when you plan the murder of your enemy's children, you plan their extinction as a people. For those who would see this as exaggerated, they might consider that the children taken hostage were not only gunned down without remorse, but treated in ways even more despicable than the sick, perverted treatment that the neoconservative Pentagon carried out at Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad. The butchers of Beslan's School Number One, we have also learned, included about a dozen Arab mercenaries and were allegedly financed by a Saudi business man. In other words, it was not simply an offshoot of the Chechen war, but of Islam's international struggle against the White and Christian worlds.

The ferocity of the terror undoubtedly owed something to the ferocity of the Chechen war, but some Western observers -- like the British liberal daily The Guardian -- have already blamed the Russians for the terror, for what else, they argue, can be expected from a "lawless" country which jails business men (read: Jewish oligarchs) on "trumped up charges."

Liberals are thus likely to shift the blame for the massacre to Russia, as well as to emphasize Russia's admittedly incompetent response to the hostage crisis. But don't expect anything more sympathetic from conservatives. The Bush White House has already offered its condolences to Putin, with the aim of using the incident for the sake of its phony war on terror. In Washington's condemnation of the incident, there was also no mention of the fact that for the last 25 years the empire has been the principal sponsor of Islamic terrorist activities on Russia's southern border and that the Chechen rebellion was probably (via Pakistan's ISI) at least partly the handiwork of the CIA. [I do not mean to diminish Mr. O'Meara's point, but we should not totally discount the possibility that Zionists, who have used and covertly guided 'Muslim terrorists' in the past, may be trying to steer Russia toward alignment with the US/Jewish axis. -- Ed.]

The lesson we need to draw from this terrible tragedy is that our people are now in Islam's cross-hairs. Beslan is thus likely to be remembered as the start of the great race war that promises to scar and tear the 21st century. Russia's debilitated state and its incompetence in the crisis revealed terrible things about our readiness for the great struggles that lie ahead. It was nevertheless heartening to learn that many of the fathers and older brothers of the beaten, stripped, abused, and shot-in-the-back children responded by retrieving their rifles so as to join the counter-attack.

In this, her hour of grief, our hearts must go out to Russia -- but, at the same time, we must also begin to prepare, in the spirit of those Russian fathers, for the future assaults that will inevitably strike at our own children.

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