NationStates Jolt Archive

Hi all, Being liberal minded you might find what I am about to say shocking:
Peir 57 is NOT the same as Guantanamo Bay. In fact it's a travesty that the liberals have the audacity to name Peir 57 'Guantanamo on the Hudson".

I agree that prisons are not supposed to be hotels. I have been in jail waiting to be arraigned. I have spent as many a six days waiting. I speak from experience:

The conditions described are no different that the conditions of a holding cell: There is only one toilet, there is limited access to phones and you get fed a carton of milk and a baloney or gov't block cheese 2x a day if you're lucky. There are no beds in a holding pen... sometimes there is a wooden plank bolted to a wall which is usually too small to lie down upon..the best you can do is sit uncomfortably in one place. You usually are not formally charged before you go before the judge. To my knowledge this does not violate one's civil rights: you pretty much know already why you have been arrested.

While being held one does not usually receive medical treatment unless it's an emergency. In fact the police are required to ask you if you havee any medical conditions that they should know about..when you are booked you must see a health care professional ( usually a Physician's Assistant or a nurse ) before you are thrown into the pen. This is to not only protect the interests of the arestee but also prevent the spread of disease in the close quarters of a jail cell.

Consider the sheer volume of arestees. The NYC Judicial system is already swamped by its high crime rate; imagine adding upwards of almost 2,000 additional "criminals". Of course the expitidion process is going to be slow. However, in NYC the law is that an arestee must be arraigned within 72 hours unless they have outstanding warrants in which case you may be held indefinitely. I'm not saying these people should suffer but if you protest violently..well what can I say? You get caught...you pay for it. There are many people I know who have participated in the protests; a friend of mine marched with the Quakers...I haven't heard of any Quakers being arrested...CAUSE THEY ARE A PEACEFUL GROUP. Acting out...being violent is counter-productive to the movement. Bush is accused of starting a false war..and those charges are correct in my book...acting out violently is comparitive to hurting others just as war does.

As far as the CO's not talking, that's standard procedure. The CO's NEVER talk to the prisoners. They really don't know what is going on in the courtroom, they do not have access to the prisoner's files so that they may answer quetsions and it's not good policy to talk to the prisoners. They'd be answering a thousand questions that they really don't have the answer to anyway...

The conditions at Guantanamo Bay are horrendous; to compare Pier 57 Holding Pen to Guantanamo Bay is stretching the truth.

I understand and symapathise with the small percent of people who get caught up in a sweep. But that's only about 1% of those arrested. The other 99% need to know that if they protest and get out of hand they're gonna pay the price for disobeying the law. It comes with the territory. I know cause I have been protesting since I was 15 years old. I pick and choose my protests carefully. I know that I run a risk of being arrested every time I protest. I come prepared: change for the pay phone, the name of legal counsel ( actually I get court appointed attorneys due to my poverty level so thatreally doesn't apply to me), a bandanna just in case tear gas is unleashed, a bottle of water to douse the bandanna in case of fire, breathing problems, tear gassing. I also bring my meds so that I will be treated with medical attention if needed and not have to rely on the CO's to medicate me.

I understand that the oil and asbestos situation is bad...but where else are they going to hold prisoners? 100 Center Street has only one holding pen to accomodate 133 females. I hear that the men's section is a little bigger. And don't get me started on the roach and rat situation down at Central Booking...
According to the reports, these detainees are being released through 100 Center Street. They're going to be arraigned; it just takes time.
Am I saying what's going on is right? Should there be limitations on the right to Free Speech? No. But that's the law RIGHT NOW. If you're gonna get involved know the consequences first.

I'm sick to death about people whining about Pier 57. Choose your fights wisely and avoid consequences. I know I do...that's why I am protesting at The UN on Sept. 12th against the Mass genocide in Sudan. No one talks about that; that news has been obscured by the RNC. We all know what Bush and Co. is doing / has done...I believe awareness needs to be created about the genocides. If word had gotten out, if more people protested the actions of the Nazis perhaps the Holocaust would have never happened..or Kosovo or Roanda. I'm taking my stand on Sept 12th and if I get arrested so be it. I choose to get involved; I choose to accept averything that goes along with it.

What are your thoughts?

C'mon I really want to hear what you guys think.

C'mon I really want to hear what you guys think.I'm sick to death about people whining about Pier 57
First I've heard of it. Is that a New York thing?

Gitmo is a particular sore spot for me, as I think the whole concept of 'Enemy Combatants' is yet another in a long string of attacks on the principles the US is based upon. If the protestors are looking for something particularly evil to use as a touchstone, I can see why they picked Gitmo as their example. Doesn't make it right, but then you have to consider the protestors' agenda. They're there to make noise, to get their issues noticed and acknowledged.

It'll backfire on them. It's like the flag-burning thing - nobody notices the actual cause, only that they're doing something so outrageous that it offends the potential audience. The potentially legitimate causes they were protesting for are lost in the controversy. Dumb.

I can see both sides.

Pier 57 was set up specifically for protestors because, come on, send them to Riker's Island?? Most of the protestors are harmless; putting them into prison with rapists and murderers would be ghastly.

Also: even before the RNC, some of the protestors were making it clear they were there to disrupt things (rappelling down the front of a hotel to post a sign?) With about a thousand arrests a day predicted, there needed to be a place to put them all.


As for the protestor's side:
36-67 hours wait before being charged or released? UNACCEPTABLE. You have a right to be charged within 24 hours, or released.

I don't doubt it was uncomfortable; I do doubt it was terrifying or horrendous. However, the process for arraignment was completely unacceptable.

First I've heard of it. Is that a New York thing?

Gitmo is a particular sore spot for me, as I think the whole concept of 'Enemy Combatants' is yet another in a long string of attacks on the principles the US is based upon. If the protestors are looking for something particularly evil to use as a touchstone, I can see why they picked Gitmo as their example. Doesn't make it right, but then you have to consider the protestors' agenda. They're there to make noise, to get their issues noticed and acknowledged.

It'll backfire on them. It's like the flag-burning thing - nobody notices the actual cause, only that they're doing something so outrageous that it offends the potential audience. The potentially legitimate causes they were protesting for are lost in the controversy. Dumb.
Probably is a NY thing.
As I said...their violent actions are counter productive to the movement; I just write my representatives...better chance of being heard.

36-67 hours wait before being charged or released? UNACCEPTABLE. You have a right to be charged within 24 hours, or released..
You do? Is that state law, or just speculation?

You do? Is that state law, or just speculation?
NYC law is that an individual must be arraigned within a 72 hour period. No speculation there... in addition to my own experience I also used to date a NYPD officer.
*ducks head*

aww hell...they just let them all go now anyway...I see both good and bad in this. But too tired to go into it now.
http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/elections/article.adp?id=20040902172409990005

in addition to my own experience I also used to date a NYPD officer.
*ducks head*
Rumor has it that cops really know how to use their nightsticks. Care to confirm?

You do? Is that state law, or just speculation?

http://www.courts.state.ny.us/courts/nyc/criminal/faqs.shtml#The%20length%20of%20time

http://nycplc.mahost.org/thesystem.htm#dos

http://nycplc.mahost.org/thesystem.htm#dos

CONTINUING DETENTION CONSTITUTES A DEPRIVATION OF PETITIONERS’ CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS



8. Petitioners’ continuing, prolonged, and unnecessary detention (12 hours and counting) while awaiting release on mere desk appearance tickets, is plainly for no other purpose but to retaliate against them for exercising their First Amendment and New York State Constitutional rights to freedom of speech and freedom of assembly. As such, their detention violates their constitutional rights to freedom of speech and assembly, equal protection, substantive and procedural due process, and the right to be free from cruel and unusual punishment. U.S. Const. Amends. I, V, XIV, VIII; N.Y.Const. Art. I, Sections 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 11, 12.


9. Additionally, the petitioners’ continued detention violates the N.Y. Crim. Proc. Law Section 140.20(1), which holds that, a police officer, after performing the required preliminary police duties, must, without unnecessary delay, bring a person arrested without a warrant to a local criminal court for arraignment. See Maxian v. Roundtree, 77 N.Y.2d 422, 568 N.Y.S.2d 575 (1991).


10. Petitioners’ detention without access to counsel, where the right to
counsel has been invoked by both counsel and the petitioners, violates their constitutional rights to the assistance of counsel under both the New York and United States Constitutions. U.S. Const. Amend VI; N.Y. Const. Art. I, Section 6.


PRAYER FOR RELIEF
Where the continuing, prolonged, and unnecessary police detention of the petitioners violates their New York and Federal constitutional rights, and where there is no justification for their continuing detention, this Court should order the immediate release of the petitioners.
In the alternative, where the petitioners’ continuing detention without access to counsel violates the petitioners’ New York and Federal constitutional rights to counsel, the petitioners should be immediately granted access to their attorneys.


http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/09/02/convention.protests/index.html
:) The judge seemed to think the detention was unacceptable as well.

Rumor has it that cops really know how to use their nightsticks. Care to confirm?
I plead the fifth.
;)

Hi all, Being liberal minded you might find what I am about to say shocking:
Peir 57 is NOT the same as Guantanamo Bay. In fact it's a travesty that the liberals have the audacity to name Peir 57 'Guantanamo on the Hudson".

I agree that prisons are not supposed to be hotels. I have been in jail waiting to be arraigned. I have spent as many a six days waiting. I speak from experience:

The conditions described are no different that the conditions of a holding cell: There is only one toilet, there is limited access to phones and you get fed a carton of milk and a baloney or gov't block cheese 2x a day if you're lucky. There are no beds in a holding pen... sometimes there is a wooden plank bolted to a wall which is usually too small to lie down upon..the best you can do is sit uncomfortably in one place. You usually are not formally charged before you go before the judge. To my knowledge this does not violate one's civil rights: you pretty much know already why you have been arrested.

While being held one does not usually receive medical treatment unless it's an emergency. In fact the police are required to ask you if you havee any medical conditions that they should know about..when you are booked you must see a health care professional ( usually a Physician's Assistant or a nurse ) before you are thrown into the pen. This is to not only protect the interests of the arestee but also prevent the spread of disease in the close quarters of a jail cell.

Consider the sheer volume of arestees. The NYC Judicial system is already swamped by its high crime rate; imagine adding upwards of almost 2,000 additional "criminals". Of course the expitidion process is going to be slow. However, in NYC the law is that an arestee must be arraigned within 72 hours unless they have outstanding warrants in which case you may be held indefinitely. I'm not saying these people should suffer but if you protest violently..well what can I say? You get caught...you pay for it. There are many people I know who have participated in the protests; a friend of mine marched with the Quakers...I haven't heard of any Quakers being arrested...CAUSE THEY ARE A PEACEFUL GROUP. Acting out...being violent is counter-productive to the movement. Bush is accused of starting a false war..and those charges are correct in my book...acting out violently is comparitive to hurting others just as war does.

As far as the CO's not talking, that's standard procedure. The CO's NEVER talk to the prisoners. They really don't know what is going on in the courtroom, they do not have access to the prisoner's files so that they may answer quetsions and it's not good policy to talk to the prisoners. They'd be answering a thousand questions that they really don't have the answer to anyway...

The conditions at Guantanamo Bay are horrendous; to compare Pier 57 Holding Pen to Guantanamo Bay is stretching the truth.

I understand and symapathise with the small percent of people who get caught up in a sweep. But that's only about 1% of those arrested. The other 99% need to know that if they protest and get out of hand they're gonna pay the price for disobeying the law. It comes with the territory. I know cause I have been protesting since I was 15 years old. I pick and choose my protests carefully. I know that I run a risk of being arrested every time I protest. I come prepared: change for the pay phone, the name of legal counsel ( actually I get court appointed attorneys due to my poverty level so thatreally doesn't apply to me), a bandanna just in case tear gas is unleashed, a bottle of water to douse the bandanna in case of fire, breathing problems, tear gassing. I also bring my meds so that I will be treated with medical attention if needed and not have to rely on the CO's to medicate me.

I understand that the oil and asbestos situation is bad...but where else are they going to hold prisoners? 100 Center Street has only one holding pen to accomodate 133 females. I hear that the men's section is a little bigger. And don't get me started on the roach and rat situation down at Central Booking...
According to the reports, these detainees are being released through 100 Center Street. They're going to be arraigned; it just takes time.
Am I saying what's going on is right? Should there be limitations on the right to Free Speech? No. But that's the law RIGHT NOW. If you're gonna get involved know the consequences first.

I'm sick to death about people whining about Pier 57. Choose your fights wisely and avoid consequences. I know I do...that's why I am protesting at The UN on Sept. 12th against the Mass genocide in Sudan. No one talks about that; that news has been obscured by the RNC. We all know what Bush and Co. is doing / has done...I believe awareness needs to be created about the genocides. If word had gotten out, if more people protested the actions of the Nazis perhaps the Holocaust would have never happened..or Kosovo or Roanda. I'm taking my stand on Sept 12th and if I get arrested so be it. I choose to get involved; I choose to accept averything that goes along with it.

What are your thoughts?
your rationalizing not only the psychological torture of these prisoners but the chemical poisoning of them as well

First I've heard of it. Is that a New York thing?

Gitmo is a particular sore spot for me, as I think the whole concept of 'Enemy Combatants' is yet another in a long string of attacks on the principles the US is based upon. If the protestors are looking for something particularly evil to use as a touchstone, I can see why they picked Gitmo as their example. Doesn't make it right, but then you have to consider the protestors' agenda. They're there to make noise, to get their issues noticed and acknowledged.

It'll backfire on them. It's like the flag-burning thing - nobody notices the actual cause, only that they're doing something so outrageous that it offends the potential audience. The potentially legitimate causes they were protesting for are lost in the controversy. Dumb.
this is called blaming the victim

I find it somewhat strange that so many people would be predicted to break the law, that usual law enforcement services are considered inadequate. If that many people break a particular law, the law itself should be questioned. In a democracy rule of law is intended to be by consent. Either there are a lot of criminals in the USA (and why should that be so), or people who are not what people usually conceive of as 'criminals' are being criminalised (and clearly that should not be so).

Either way, there are questions that should be answered when 'democratic' authority is challenged by the citizens under it's rule to such an extent that the usual law enforcement services are considered inadequate.

The judge seemed to think the detention was unacceptable as well.

which is impressive. usually it takes until at least a day or two after a major protest event for the judges to start finding in our favor. maybe this one has been paying attention to the actual facts of protest arrest tatics and our inevitable victories in our court cases and lawsuits?