NationStates Jolt Archive

I watched Zell Miller's and part of Dick Cheney's speech last night, and I have to say that I was terribly amused by the rhetoric, especially a few parts that were just ridiculous. I'll just list my two favorites here.

I loved it when Zell said something about your voting record in the Senate showing where your heart is, and I laughed my ass off. I don't know what he's been smoking, but he would have to be in an altered state of consciousness to say something like that with a straight face. Being a politician himself, he should know damn well that there a multitude of reasons that have nothing to do with your actual views or "heart" for voting a certain way on a particular peice of legislation.

I also loved Cheney's statement that Kerry sees two Americas and that the feeling is mutual. That was just an incredibly clever line. If I had known politicians were so funny, I would have been watching their speeches more often.

Funny?

I put a poll on it, but it posts the text before it posts the poll, so you have to wait a bit.

Edit: Nevermind.

lol.

You obviously can not tolerate another persons view so i am not gonna bother writing anything else.

To whom are you referring, Eldarana?

wouldn't you have to write something initially to be able to write anything "else"?

all of you

cuz if it's HotRodia I would disagree... he is often one of the most tolerant people on here of others views.

all of you

Thanks. That clears it up nicely.

cuz if it's HotRodia I would disagree... he is often one of the most tolerant people on here of others views.

Thanks SB. I appreciate you having my back. Though I have to admit, I don't have much tolerance for rhetorical bullshit even when I think it's hilarious.

I thought they were funny in a good way, as in humorous. Well, at least Miller's was.

After Miller listed off the major weapons systems Kerry opposed (every single major system currently in use by our forces), Miller asked, "And this is the man who wants to be the Commander-in-Chief of America's armed forces? Armed with what? Spitballs?"

Loved it!

do you mean funny "funny" or funny "haha"

or maybe funny "giggle" or funny "point and laugh"

Being from Massachusetts, My favorite line was from Zell Miller:

"It is not their patriotism - it is their judgment that has been so sorely lacking. They claimed Carter's pacifism would lead to peace.

They were wrong.

They claimed Reagan's defense buildup would lead to war.

They were wrong.

And, no pair has been more wrong, more loudly, more often than the two Senators from Massachusetts, Ted Kennedy and John Kerry"

I think that's the best thing any democrat has ever spoken.

do you mean funny "funny" or funny "haha"

The latter.

or maybe funny "giggle" or funny "point and laugh"

Yep. :)

I thought they were funny.....and great! Spitballs...;)

It wasn't that funny, but it was pretty interesting when John Mcaine referenced Michael Moore. Then he stood up and laughed. i guess there wasn't much that he could actually do in that situation. -_-''

After Miller listed off the major weapons systems Kerry opposed (every single major system currently in use by our forces), Miller asked, "And this is the man who wants to be the Commander-in-Chief of America's armed forces? Armed with what? Spitballs?"http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/weapons.asp
As a senator, Zel Miller knew that what he was saying was false. He lied

Being from Massachusetts, My favorite line was from Zell Miller:

"It is not their patriotism - it is their judgment that has been so sorely lacking. They claimed Carter's pacifism would lead to peace.

They were wrong.

They claimed Reagan's defense buildup would lead to war.

They were wrong.

And, no pair has been more wrong, more loudly, more often than the two Senators from Massachusetts, Ted Kennedy and John Kerry"

I think that's the best thing any democrat has ever spoken.

How do you keep a straight face when you say that last line?
He wasn't a democrat he was a republican. He changed parties. Not officially yet but he will.
Read this:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/weapons.asp
Claim: Senator John Kerry "voted to kill every military appropriation for the development and deployment of every weapons systems since 1988."

Status: False.

Example: [Collected on the Internet, 2004]

Origins: Numerous variants of this message claiming that Senator John Kerry of Masschusetts "voted to kill every military appropriation for the development and deployment of every weapons systems since 1988" have been circulating since at least February 2004. The message's implication — that Senator Kerry distinctly and specifically voted to kill upwards of a dozen different weapons systems — is inaccurate and grossly misleading, however.


A 22 February 2004 Republican National Committee (RNC) research briefing includes the list of weapons systems found in this message and citations that purportedly support the claim that Senator Kerry voted to kill each one. But all the citations stem from votes on three Congressional bills, none of which were about a specific weapons system or group of weapons systems

The three votes cited — regarding S. 3189 (1990), H.R. 5803 (1990), and H.R. 2126 (1995) — were bills covering fiscal year Department of Defense appropriations, all of which Senator Kerry voted against. (Two of those three votes were not technically on defense appropriations per se, but on House-Senate conference committee reports for defense appropriations bills.) As the text of a typical defense appropriations bill shows, such bills cover the entire governmental expenditures for defense in a given fiscal year and encompass thousands of items totalling hundreds of billions of dollars — including everything from the cost of developing, testing, purchasing, and maintaining weapons and other equipment to personnel expenses (salaries, medical benefits, tuition assistance, reenlistment bonuses), medical research, hazardous waste cleanup, facilities maintenance, and a whole host of other disbursements. Members of Congress ultimately vote "yea" or "nay" on an entire appropriations bill; they don't pick and choose to approve some items and reject others.
Senators and Representatives might vote against a defense appropriations bill for any numbers of reasons — because they object to the presence or absence of a particular item, because they feel that the government is proposing to spend too much or too little money on defense, or anything in-between. Maintaining, as is the case here, that a Senator who voted "nay" on one year's defense appropriations bill therefore voted to "kill" a variety of specific weapons systems is like claiming that any Congressman who has ever voted against a defense appropriations bill has therefore also voted to abolish the U.S. military.

The inclusion of some of the items listed here is all the more ridiculous given that they were weapons systems that a previous Republican administration advocated eliminating. For example, it was Dick Cheney himself, in his capacity as Secretary of Defense under President George H.W. Bush, who testified before the House Armed Services Committee on 13 August 1989 that he had recommended cancelling the AH-64 Apache Helicopter program:

The Army, as I indicated in my earlier testimony, recommended to me that we keep a robust Apache helicopter program going forward. AH-64 . . . forced the Army to make choices. I said, "You can't have all three. We don't have the money for all three." So I recommended that we cancel the AH-64 program two years out. That would save $1.6 billion in procurement and $200 million in spares over the next five years.
(Note that this testimony took place over six years before Senator Kerry supposedly voted to "kill" the AH-64.)

Likewise, on 1 February 1992, Secretary of Defense Cheney complained to the Senate Armed Services Committee that he was being "forced" to spend money on unneeded weapons such as the M-1, the F-14, and the F-16:

Congress has let me cancel a few programs. But you've squabbled and sometimes bickered and horse-traded and ended up forcing me to spend money on weapons that don't fill a vital need in these times of tight budgets and new requirements . . . You've directed me to buy more M-1s, F-14s, and F-16s — all great systems . . . but we have enough of them.
And President Bush noted in his 1992 State of the Union address that he was phasing out several weapons systems, including the B-2, to "reflect the changes of the new era":

Two years ago, I began planning cuts in military spending that reflected the changes of the new era. But now, this year, with imperial communism gone, that process can be accelerated. Tonight I can tell you of dramatic changes in our strategic nuclear force. These are actions we are taking on our own because they are the right thing to do. After completing 20 planes for which we have begun procurement, we will shut down further production of the B-2 bombers. We will cancel the small ICBM program. We will cease production of new warheads for our sea-based ballistic missiles. We will stop all new production of the Peacekeeper missile. And we will not purchase any more advanced cruise missiles.

Arnold Swarzhchzhzchzzhenegers (sp?) speech was the best.

*Gets up to the hugely cheering crowd*

"Wow, it's like winning an Oscar up here!"

*Pauses for laughter, which occurs*

"Not that I'd know."

I didn't bother to watch last night, as it was done by the two most uncharismatic people on the planet. One is just uncharismatic. The other is a Southern Democrat, and from the brief snipet I caught, he had the charisma of Gov. George Wallace. Wallace sure was comforting to a divided nation.

From http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=147

Did Kerry Oppose Tanks & Planes? Not Lately
Kerry voted often against nuclear missiles and bombers in the '90s, but GOP claims that he opposed a long list of conventional weapons are overblown.

February 26, 2004
Modified: February 26, 2004
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Summary

Bush’s campaign chairman Marc Racicot on Feb. 22 accused Kerry of “voting against the weapons systems that are winning the War on Terror” and says Kerry was for "canceling or cutting funding for the B-2 Stealth Bomber, the B-1B, the F-15, the F-16, the M1 Abrams, the Patriot Missile, the AH-64 Apache Helicopter, the Tomahawk Cruise Missile, and the Aegis Air-Defense Cruiser." Another Bush campaign spokesman said Kerry has a "32-year history of voting to cut defense programs and cut defense systems" (a clear impossibility since Kerry has been in office less than 20 years.)

It's true Kerry expressed opposition to those weapons 20 years ago as a candidate, voted against Pentagon budgets several times as a senator in the early and mid-1990's, and proposed cuts in military and intelligence budgets as deficit-reduction measures as recently as 1996.

But Kerry's votes against specific military hardware were mostly against strategic nuclear weapons including the B-2 bomber, Trident missile and anti-missile items, not against conventional equipment such as tanks. And Kerry has a point when he says “I've voted for some of the largest defense and intelligence budgets in our history,” which is correct. He's voted for military spending bills regularly since 1997.


Analysis



Twenty years ago, as a candidate battling another liberal for the Democratic nomination for the Senate in Massachusetts Kerry advocated terminating many strategic and tactical weapons.

In this 1984 campaign memo (which a Kerry spokesman confirms is genuine) the candidate called for cutting Ronald Reagan’s military budget by between $45 billion and $53 billion through (among other things) cancellation of the MX missile, B-1 bomber, anti-satellite weapons, and the “Star Wars” anti-missile program, along with several conventional weapons that have become mainstays of the present-day military, including the AH-64 Apache helicopter, the Aegis air-defense cruiser, and the F-14 and F-15 fighters. He also called for a 50% reduction in the Tomahawk cruise missile.

And during the same campaign, according to the Boston Globe, Kerry also advocated reductions in the M-1 Abrams tank, the Bradley Fighting Vehicle and the F-16 jet.

"No Excuse"

"There's no excuse for casting even one vote for unnecessary weapons of destruction, and as your senator I will never do so," Kerry said in the memo.

In 1985, Kerry's first speech in the Senate was against President Reagan's proposal to build MX ballistic missiles, and also in 1985 he introduced a "nuclear freeze" resolution calling on the President to negotiate a "verifiable" halt to testing, production and deployment of nuclear weapons. It attracted no co-sponsors and died without a hearing in committee.

Throughout Kerry's early Senate years he often voted against specific weapons systems and sometimes against the entire Pentagon budget. He voted repeatedly to cancel the B-2 Stealth bomber, for example, in 1989 , 1991 (twice ) and 1992 . He voted against the Trident II submarine-launched ballistic missile in 1994 and 1995. And he voted repeatedly to cut funds for the Strategic Defense Initiative (ballistic missile defense) in 1991, 1992, 1993 , 1995, and 1996. He also voted for across-the-board cuts in the military budget in 1991 and 1992, as Congress struggled to deal with mounting federal deficits and the former Soviet Union disintegrated.

Republicans shouldn't make too much of these votes, however, since President Bush's own father announced in his 1992 State of the Union address that he would be ceasing further production of B-2 bombers and MX missiles, and would cut military spending by 30 percent over several years.

Voting Against M-1 Tanks? Not Really.

And Republicans go too far when they claim that Kerry voted against such mainstay weapons of today's military as the M-1 Abrams tank, the Bradley Fighting Vehicle, and the Patriot missile. (See this Republican National Committee "fact sheet," for example.) These claims are misleading because they rest on Kerry's votes against the entire Pentagon appropriations bills in 1990 and 1995. Kerry also voted against the Pentagon authorization bills (which provide authority to spend but not the actual money) in those years and also in 1996. But none of those were votes against specific weapons systems. Kerry's critics might just as well say he was voting to fire the entire Army, Navy, Air Force and Marine Corps.

It is true as Republicans say that in 1993 (Bill Clinton's first year as President) Kerry specifically proposed cutting the size of the military, including reductions in numbers of submarines, jet fighters and soldiers. But what Republicans fail to mention is that it was a very broad measure aimed at cutting federal spending by $85 billion at a time when the federal deficit was roughly $300 billion. Kerry's measure -- the "Budget Deficit Reduction Act of 1993" -- targeted not only military spending but also would have eliminated federal subsidies for cotton, wool and mohair production, eliminated the superconducting super collider and the space station, and raised fees for grazing or mining on public land. That bill died without a hearing in the Senate Finance Committee.

It is also true that Kerry proposed in 1995 another measure that -- among other things -- would have cut the US intelligence budget by $300 million per year for 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, and 2000. Republicans fail to mention, however, that this was another broad, deficit-reduction measure that didn't just target military spending. When he introduced it Sept. 29, 1995, Kerry said it would cut $90 billion in federal spending, of which $10 billion would come from defense spending, and $11 billion from terminating the international space station program.

Republicans also point to a 1996 bill Kerry introduced to cut $6.5 billion from defense spending. What Kerry's critics fail to mention is that Kerry proposed to use the money to hire an additional 100,000 police officers (above the 100,000 President Clinton already was proposing to fund.) Kerry called it the Safer Streets Act of 1996.

Republican Sen. Saxby Chambliss of Georgia, in a telephone conference call with reporters arranged by the Bush campaign Feb 21, went way over the top when he accused Kerry of "a 32-year history of voting to cut defense programs and cut defense systems." That's not possible since Kerry's first vote was cast in 1985. It also implies that Kerry has continued to vote for cuts over his entire career, which isn't true.

A "New Kerry?"

Since 1996, the John Kerry who once opposed the Apache helicopter and wanted to cut Tomahawk cruise-missile funds by 50% has evolved into a steady supporter of military budgets. Starting in 1997 Kerry voted for every regular Department of Defense appropriations bill and for every authorization bill as well.

Kerry says he's changed. He still defends his opposition to the MX missile and the "Star Wars" strategic defense initiative, but concedes that opposing some other weapons was a mistake.

This was not in evidence Feb. 21, when Kerry lashed out at the Bush campaign's criticism of his voting record. In a letter to President Bush he said -- wrongly -- "you and your campaign have initiated a widespread attack on my service in Vietnam," which is not the case. In fact Bush spokesmen at the White House, the campaign and the Republican National Committee have gone out of their way repeatedly to distinguish between Kerry's military service, which they call honorable, and his legislative record.

But Kerry was less defensive and more candid in a June, 2003 interview with Boston Globe reporter Brian Mooney. The reporter quoted Kerry as conceding that some of his positions 20 years earlier were "ill-advised, and I think some of them are stupid in the context of the world we find ourselves in right now and the things that I've learned since then. . . . I mean, you learn as you go in life."

The Globe quoted Kerry as saying his subsequent Senate voting record on defense has been "pretty responsible."


Sources



Marc Racicot "Bush-Cheney '04 Campaign Chairman Governor Marc Racicot’s Letter to Senator John Kerry" 22 Feb. 2004.

Nedra Pickler “Kerry Blasts Bush Over Attacks on Record” Associated Press 21 Feb. 2004.

John Kerry "John Kerry addresses Bush/Cheney campaign attacks," 21 Feb. 2004.

Glen Johnson, “Kerry admits to an error in boast about 1st speech,” The Boston Globe, 1 May 2003.

Brian C. Mooney, “Taking One Prize, Then A Bigger One,” The Boston Globe 19 June 2003 : A1.

S.1500 "Comprehensive Nuclear Weapons Freeze and Arms Reduction Act of 1985" Introduced 25 July 1985.

U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes 101st Congress - 1st Session S.Amdt.859 Vote #203 26 Sept. 1989.

U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes 102nd Congress - 1st Session S.Amdt. 1017 Vote #174 1 Aug 1991 .

U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes 102nd Congress - 1st Session S.Amdt.1193 Vote #206 25 Sept. 1991.

U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes 102nd Congress - 2nd Session S.Amdt.3041 Vote #216 18 Sept. 1992.

U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes 103rd Congress - 2nd Session S.Amdt.2489 Vote #274 10 Aug. 1994.

U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes 104th Congress - 1st Session S.Amdt.2398 Vote #393 11 Aug. 1995.

U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes 102nd Congress - 1st Session S.Amdt.980 Vote #171 1 Aug. 1991.

U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes 102nd Congress - 2nd Session S.Amdt.2918 Vote #182 7 Aug. 1992.

U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes 103rd Congress - 1st Session S.Amdt.785 Vote #251 9 Sept. 1993.

U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes 104th Congress - 1st Session S.Amdt.2087 Vote #354 3 Aug. 1995.

U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes 104th Congress - 2nd Session S.Amdt.4048 Vote #160 19 June 1996.

U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes 102nd Congress - 1st Session S.Amdt.81 Vote #49 25 April 1991.

U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes 102nd Congress - 2nd Session S.Amdt.1768 Vote #73 9 April 1992.

U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes 101st Congress - 2nd Session HR5803 Vote #319 26 Oct. 1990.

U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes 104th Congress - 1st Session HR2126 Vote #579 16 Nov. 1995.

U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes 104th Congress - 2nd Session HR2320 Vote #279 10 Sept. 1996.

From http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docid=177

More Bush Distortions of Kerry Defense Record
Latest barrage of ads repeats misleading claims that Kerry "repeatedly opposed" mainstream weapons.

April 26, 2004
Modified: April 30, 2004
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Summary

Bush ads released April 26 recycle some distortions of Kerry's voting record on military hardware. We've de-bunked these half-truths before but the Bush campaign persists.

The ads -- many targeted to specific states -- repeat the claim that Kerry opposed a list of mainstream weapons including Bradley Fighting Vehicles and Apache helicopters, and also repeat the claim that he voted against body armor for frontline troops in Iraq. In fact, Kerry voted against a few large Pentagon money bills, of which Bradleys, Apaches and body armor were small parts, but not against those items specifically.


Analysis

On April 26 the Bush campaign released a total of 10 ads, all repeating claims that Kerry opposed a list of mainstream military hardware "vital to winning the war on terror."

Bush Ad: National Version

"Weapons"

Bush: I’m George W. Bush and I approve this message.

Announcer: As our troops defend America in the War on Terror, they must have what it takes to win. Yet, John Kerry has repeatedly opposed weapons vital to winning the War on Terror: Bradley Fighting Vehicles, Patriot Missiles, B-2 Stealth Bombers, F-18 Fighter Jets and more.

Kerry even voted against body armor for our troops on the front line of the War on Terror. John Kerry’s record on national security: Troubling.
Misleading Claims

The claims are misleading, as we've pointed out before in articles we posted on Feb. 26 and March 16. The Bush campaign bases its claim mainly on Kerry's votes against overall Pentagon money bills in 1990, 1995 and 1996, but these were not votes against specific weapons. And in fact, Kerry voted for Pentagon authorization bills in 16 of the 19 years he's been in the Senate. So even by the Bush campaign's twisted logic, Kerry should -- on balance -- be called a supporter of the "vital" weapons, more so than an opponent.

The claim that Kerry voted against body armor is based similarly on Kerry's vote last year against an $87 billion emergency supplemental appropriation bill to finance military operations and reconstruction efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan. It included $300 million for the latest, ceramic-plate type of body armor for troops who had been sent to war without it. The body-armor funds amounted to about 1/3 of one percent of the total.

Missing Context

It is true that when Kerry first ran for the Senate in 1984 he did call specifically for canceling the AH-64 Apache helicopter, but once elected he opposed mainly such strategic weapons as Trident nuclear missiles and space-based anti-ballistic systems. And Richard Cheney himself, who is now Vice President but who then was Secretary of Defense, also proposed canceling the Apache helicopter program five years after Kerry did. As Cheney told the House Armed Services Committee on Aug. 13, 1989:

Cheney: The Army, as I indicated in my earlier testimony, recommended to me that we keep a robust Apache helicopter program going forward, AH-64; . . . I forced the Army to make choices. I said, "You can't have all three. We don't have the money for all three." So I recommended that we cancel the AH-64 program two years out. That would save $1.6 billion in procurement and $200 million in spares over the next five years.

Two years later Cheney's Pentagon budget also proposed elimination of further production of the Bradley Fighting Vehicle as well. It was among 81 Pentagon programs targeted for termination, including the F-14 and F-16 aircraft. "Cheney decided the military already has enough of these weapons," the Boston Globe reported at the time.

Does that make Cheney an opponent of "weapons vital to winning the war on terror?" Of course not. But by the Bush campaign's logic, Cheney himself would be vulnerable to just such a charge, and so would Bush's father, who was president at the time.

McCain Defends Kerry, Criticizes "Bitter" Rhetoric

Kerry's voting record on military spending was defended March 18 by Republican Sen. John McCain. He said on CBS's "The Early Show:"

McCain: No, I do not believe that he is, quote, weak on defense. He's responsible for his voting record, as we are all responsible for our records, and he'll have to explain it. But, no, I do not believe that he is necessarily weak on defense.

McCain also criticized "bitter and partisan" attacks by both sides, saying, " This kind of rhetoric, I think, is not helpful in educating and helping the American people make a choice."

Bush Ad: State Version

"Arizona Weapons"

Bush: I’m George W. Bush and I approve this message.

Announcer: As our troops defend

America in the War on Terror, they must have what it takes to win. Yet, John Kerry has repeatedly opposed weapons vital to winning the War on Terror: Apache Helicopters, Tomahawk Cruise Missiles, and components of F-18 Fighter Jets all built here in Arizona.

Kerry even voted against body armor for our troops on the front line of the War on Terror. John Kerry’s record on national security: Troubling.

McCain is heading Bush's re-election efforts in Arizona. And speaking of Arizona, it was among nine states targeted by different versions of the same Bush ad.

Targeting Arizona

The state ads made mention of specific weapons -- supposedly opposed by Kerry -- manufactured in those states. The Arizona version mentioned Apache helicopters, Tomahawk cruise missiles and F-18 aircraft "all built here in Arizona."

The other ads were aimed at Arkansas, Florida, Maine, Michigan, Missouri, New Hampshire, Ohio and Pennsylvania. All added a similar pork-barrel appeal to the basic attack on Kerry for undermining the "war on terror." And all gave an equally false impression of Kerry's actual voting record.


Sources



Richard Cheney "Hearings of the House Armed Services Committee, Fiscal 1990 Defense Budget" 13 July 1989

Fred Kaplan "Bush's 1992 Budget: Plan includes a $ 3.7b military cut" Boston Globe, 5 Feb 1991.

Nancy Benac, "McCain Says Kerry Not Weak on Defense," The Associated Press 18 March 2004.

National Journal's Congress Daily, "McCain, Differing From GOP Leaders, Defends Kerry On Defense," 18 March 2004.


Related Articles
Did Kerry Vote "No" on Body Armor for Troops?
Yes, along with $87 billion worth of other things. But Bush didn't send enough in the first place.

Bush Strains Facts Re: Kerry's Plan To Cut Intelligence Funding in '90's
President claims 1995 Kerry plan would "gut" the intelligence services. It was a 1% cut, and key Republicans approved something similar.

Did Kerry Oppose Tanks & Planes? Not Lately
Kerry voted often against nuclear missiles and bombers in the '90s, but GOP claims that he opposed a long list of conventional weapons are overblown.

I myself adored the Daily Show's stint on Arnie's speech.

Arnie: "I remember hearing Nixon, and the words hit me like a breath of fresh air."
Jon: **puts head in hands** "Though I suppose, comming from the land that gave birth to Hitler, Nixon would feel like a breath of fresh air"
Arnie: "And I asked my friend 'What political party is he from?' and he told me 'He is a republican.'"
Jon: Funny story...some time later, Nixon was kicked out of office, having disgraced himself, the office, and the country. **pauses** Anyways..."

However, am I the only one noting that, after all the right wing screams of "stop attacking the presidents!"

...well, do I even need to continue?

coughHYPOCRISYcough