NationStates Jolt Archive

Not really--I don't think anyone needs to "explain themselves" to me. I'm just parodying the other thread towards "abortionists" i.e. pro-choicers, or "anti-lifers".

I can understand why some people would be (personally) against abortion.

I do not understand why they bring religion into this.

Is there a biblical passage that outlaws abortion?

Before you go to the Ten Commandments (thou shalt not kill) I'd like you to point out to me where in the Bible it specifies that a NOT YET BORN fetus has "life".

I don't believe there is any theological grounds for considering a fetus a living being that can be murdered; as it has yet to be born.

Now, with that in mind, the idea of abortion makes me feel icky all over; and no doubt, it is being used as birth control by some; but--I think people should have the choice.

I'm pro-choice, and not pro-abortion. (Many don't seem to understand that there is a distinction...)

EDIT:

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do not post a ranting reply. It will be ignored.

I will only reply to individuals who post ACTUAL BIBLICAL PASSAGES with the reference so I can look it up myself.

Is that clear? This is not a moral argument, or any argument at all--this is a discussion of FACT, and the FACT is what is or is not written in the BIBLE. By the BIBLE, I mean THE Christian Bible, no strange versions that no one else has ever heard of, etc. I don't care if your bible has "The Book of Jimmy" in it--that doesn't count for this particular thread.

I'm sorry to be a hard-nose about this: but I really am curious about the reality of the issue, and if you'd like to debate something else, there are 10,000 other abortion/anti-abortion threads in existence.

NOBODY post about this topic in this thread. There is a thread already existant and I'm sick and tired of people trying to start a 'reloaded' or '2.0' on the thread just so it looks like they started the thread or something. But, we can talk about other things here like why apple pies cost so much on the mooooon!

Cherry pies are a dime a dozen on the moon, but apple pies are upwards of $30 a slice!

NO--this is not that thread at all.

That thread is nonsense and hooey.

I am sick of threads that are full of "emotions" and "opinions".

I only want BIBLICAL QUOTES.

Please, try to read before dismissing my thread and encouraging others to ignore me :)

I don’t have a biblical passage

And I am not pro life but I think it can be simple as this

They believe the fetus is alive … and their religion says life is sacred

Now why would they have to honestly have direct bible quates that say “life is sacred” that is essentially the whole thing

So that’s what I quote

The bible

(This isent like homosexual relationship arguments … this is just a general life is precious thing rather then a specific rule against an act)

My only problem comes when they are pro life and pro death penalty but still argue on the religion point of life is sacred :)

UpwardThrust...sure the Christian Bible says all life is sacred, but, when does it define life as beginning? Where does it say that the unborn child has life? Where is the actual Bible passage that supports this and not some ambigeous paraphrased quote.

This looks quite a bit like 'that thread' to me, so in interest in keeping the original alive I will link to it in oversized letters!

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=353605

Are you illiterate????

"Now, for those people that support abortion in other circumstances than those mentioned above, explain your position. "

What is that??? Can you read that???

I am not asking for pro-abortion.

I am NOT asking for Doctors who perform abortions.

I AM asking that people who are against abortion post their reasons, from biblical passages only.

Please stop harassing me and spamming my thread.

At this point--there are two valid posts in this thread. You, dear sir, are the cause of 6 of the invalid ones.

Please stop--I have reported you to the moderator already.


-----

Edit:

Thank you Kryo for an on-topic and intelligent post that shows you actually read this thread!!!

NOTE: Sorry Sooty Babia, but I really want to tear apart what this moron said. I hope I'm not taking up valuable space.

I don’t have a biblical passage
There you said it yourself! Don't waste space in this thread!

And I am not pro life but I think it can be simple as this

They believe the fetus is alive … and their religion says life is sacred

There, you just proved you have no concrete evidence. This is what we call heresay evidence. It is evidence by word of mouth. It has no merit. And, which religion is "their" religion? You have specified that either!

All you have done is merely restated what we know already. You have stated nothing new.

Now why would they have to honestly have direct bible quates that say “life is sacred” that is essentially the whole thing

Ok, so it's a bunch of wrods you've lumped together to make a quote. Now, how about citing the actual source of your source? Right now, your credibility is sinking really fast. You have proven nothing yet.

So that’s what I quote

The bible

Ok, which Bible? What Bible does this appear in?

(This isent like homosexual relationship arguments … this is just a general life is precious thing rather then a specific rule against an act)

My only problem comes when they are pro life and pro death penalty but still argue on the religion point of life is sacred :)

Ok, now this whole last section of your argument is COMPLETELY irrelevant! It has no merit. The only thing you're doing here is burying your credibility in an argument.

No no that's fine :)

Does anyone out there have a biblical quote?

Maybe I should just make a different thread....

"Biblical Quotations Related to Fetuses"

"Fetii"? It's hard to say...

UpwardThrust...sure the Christian Bible says all life is sacred, but, when does it define life as beginning? Where does it say that the unborn child has life? Where is the actual Bible passage that supports this and not some ambigeous paraphrased quote.
That my friend is the real argument

Where does life start?

Where does it say that an unborn child is NOT life?

That is a lot of the reason for argument even within the catholic faith … there are those that support and not, even within one faith.

The whole thing is one big grey area honestly and no amount of quoating anything will help it

You have one side saying “Thou shall not murder” (there is one damn quote you all were too lazy to just know … or google) and defining life as the moment of conception

The other insisting that it is not life until born rather then the “potential” for life.

Some saying (like was said in other threads) that when the internal nervous system takes over (after first tri roughly)


I mean what do you want me to quote? Something specific like “abortion is bad” or the fact that people take some broader rules to mean the specific?

I just don’t think there is any way to point to something that you wont just argue that it is not related

So I will stick with the “thou shall not murder” seems simple enough to understand

A favourite is Exodus 21: 22-25:

22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

Although it has to be said that this does NOT support the case for equal rights for fetuses. It's quite clear that the "mischief" referred to in verse 23 is harm to the mother, not to the "fruit". Basically it says that if a woman is made to miscarry, then the woman's husband gets to decide what penalty, if any, should be placed upon whoever was responsible for causing the miscarriage. "Life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth" etc. quite clearly does not apply to an unborn child, in the minds of the authors of Exodus.

But... it being the Bible and all, it's possible to find all sorts of other passages which can be merrily interpreted to support (or oppose) pretty much any cause you care to name. Jeremiah 1:5 has God say

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

which could be read as meaning that the unborn child is "known to God" -- although it could also be read as supporting predestination.

All of which is merely good reason not to base the functioning of a 21st century secular society on the sun-baked maunderings of some old men from 2,500-odd years ago.

NOBODY post about this topic in this thread. There is a thread already existant and I'm sick and tired of people trying to start a 'reloaded' or '2.0' on the thread just so it looks like they started the thread or something. But, we can talk about other things here like why apple pies cost so much on the mooooon!

I suppose I am nobody, as I am going to post in this thread. If a topic is not to your liking, then don't read it, don't post in it, and ignore its existance. Topic hijack is extremely immature.

I would have to search, so don't take this as "Gospel" but I dimly remember some discussion about when a pregnancy is considered to have life... give me a few minutes to see if I can locate it.

http://www.alliance4lifemin.org/categorized_articles/spiritual/how_pro_life_is_bible/how_pro_life_is_bible.htm


Here ... I think this is what you are looking for (sense you seem to be looking for the quotes rather then the traditional arguement) though this is what is has been leading into anyways

I Jeremias 1:5, God tells Jeremias "Before I formed thee in the bowels of thy mother, I knew thee: and before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee." (From my Catholic Life Deluxe Edition Holy Bible).

It's easy to google more bible quotations to support the theological view that the foetus is alive and individual before birth.

I Jeremias 1:5, God tells Jeremias "Before I formed thee in the bowels of thy mother, I knew thee: and before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee." (From my Catholic Life Deluxe Edition Holy Bible).

It's easy to google more bible quotations to support the theological view that the foetus is alive and individual before birth.


Thank you! (at work no bible … besides I am not actively practicing any faith right now so don’t even know where mine is)

Also googled the last link

He/she seems rather interested in the quotes rather then argument … must be a homework assignment or something

If he just wanted quotes a simple trip to google could have done it for him/her

NOBODY post about this topic in this thread. There is a thread already existant and I'm sick and tired of people trying to start a 'reloaded' or '2.0' on the thread just so it looks like they started the thread or something. But, we can talk about other things here like why apple pies cost so much on the mooooon!

Purposefully trying to derail someone's thread is not a particularly mature thing to do. If I catch you at it again, you will be issued with a formal warning.


http://www.satanstephen.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/DrChaotica.jpg (http://www.satanstephen.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/taunt1.mp3)
Myrth
Ruler of the Cosmos
Forum Moderator

I Jeremias 1:5, God tells Jeremias "Before I formed thee in the bowels of thy mother, I knew thee: and before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee." (From my Catholic Life Deluxe Edition Holy Bible).

It's easy to google more bible quotations to support the theological view that the foetus is alive and individual before birth.
This could easily justify the reasons against abortion. At least it is a biblical quote supporting the choice for the pro-lifers. It seems like you're the first to find a quote that matches the challege.

Although it has to be said that this does NOT support the case for equal rights for fetuses. It's quite clear that the "mischief" referred to in verse 23 is harm to the mother, not to the "fruit". Basically it says that if a woman is made to miscarry, then the woman's husband gets to decide what penalty, if any, should be placed upon whoever was responsible for causing the miscarriage. "Life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth" etc. quite clearly does not apply to an unborn child, in the minds of the authors of Exodus.

Ah, this is miscarriage you're talking about. It is not the same as abortion, for many who do miscarry do not do so by will, for they want the child. Furthermore, miscarrying can be quite traumatising. Miscarrying is not the will of the woman.

Deliberate miscarriage would be abortion. Miscarriage usually refers to when a pregnant woman accidently loses the child she is bearing, not when she willfilly ends the life of the unborn fetus.

Ah, this is miscarriage you're talking about. It is not the same as abortion, for many who do miscarry do not do so by will, for they want the child. Furthermore, miscarrying can be quite traumatising. Miscarrying is not the will of the woman.

Deliberate miscarriage would be abortion. Miscarriage usually refers to when a pregnant woman accidently loses the child she is bearing, not when she willfilly ends the life of the unborn fetus.

Well, without the original Hebrew text (and an understanding of the original Hebrew) it's hard to say what the original intent was. Does "miscarry" in the original context mean "by accident only"? Is the English translation (in the 17th century King James Bible) the right word? Abortions were known in the ancient world: the Hippocratic Oath contains a phrase along the lines of "I will not give a woman a pessary to induce abortion". The Bible's silence on the matter could be said to speak volumes.

However, that wasn't the main point of the extract from Exodus. The point was to show that the Bible -- or at least Exodus -- does not regard harm done to an unborn in the same way as it regards harm done to other human beings.

Ok...

http://www.godrules.net/library/topics/topic348.htm <-- this link leads to MANY MANY links referring to children in the KJV of the bible. It may help people with this argument.

Stirring the pot:
2 Kings 15:16 talks about God killing the women and unborn children of enemies....

Hosea 9:14, 9:16, 13:16...


So it could be argued that the view on the sanctity of pre-born life depends on WHOSE child it is.

Also, re: an eye for an eye -- it states in the passage that the father should decide the punishment for a child's being aborted through mischief -- could it not also be interpreted that the father determines the disposition of the child's birth or not?

*takes a step back and watches people continue the debate*

I don’t have a biblical passage

And I am not pro life but I think it can be simple as this

They believe the fetus is alive … and their religion says life is sacred

Now why would they have to honestly have direct bible quates that say “life is sacred” that is essentially the whole thing

So that’s what I quote

The bible

(This isent like homosexual relationship arguments … this is just a general life is precious thing rather then a specific rule against an act)

My only problem comes when they are pro life and pro death penalty but still argue on the religion point of life is sacred :)\

Ahh, exactly.

I love you guys :) Great moderation, great points.

Okay--for the one quote (I knew you before) couldn't it be said that this goes beyond the simple flesh? I think it's clear that it's a spiritual knowledge. God is expressing his omnipotence--however, by the same token, I see the other side to it; God in his omnipotence knows that the woman is going to have him.

So then you have to ask--do I believe in predetermination or in free will? If the simple reason for abortion being a sin is that God knows what the child will be, and therefore, it counts as alive--then are you capable of aborting it?

Kind of confusing.

I would be definetly interested in seeing stronger/more clear quotes as well! I don't think this one qualifies as defining biological life/life that has rights. As the friendly pot stirrer pointed out, there are passages where God demands the murder of women and their unborn children.

I'm really most interested in seeing an actual quote (with book reference) that says, "Life begins HERE" or in some way supports the notion that a fetus or "Wasting your seed" so to speak is wrong. (Or that using birth control is wrong.)

There is the verse, I forget what the reference is however. It goes something like, "for I have known you since you were in you mother's womb." Basically God saying that, he knows everyone's personality and needs and wants before they are born.