NationStates Jolt Archive

I was wondering, can vegans eat honey? Or is that an animal produced product?
Can vegetarians eat fish, or are they not real vegetarians if they do?
Can vegetarians wear leather?
Can vegans wear silk?
Can vegetarians or vegans eat silk or leather, if they were so inclined?
If a vegetarian wearing fur stops being a vegetarian, does that mean that rabbits aren't vegetarians either? If you made a rabbit wear a leather jacket, would that stop it being a vegetarian?

Just some things to ponder.

A vegitarian who eats fish is called something like a presso-vegitarian. There are various degrees of what you eat and do not eat. I'm a strict ovo-lacto vegitarian. I don't eat any meat of any kind, but I still eat eggs and dairy products. If I stopped drinking milk, I'd be an ovo-vegitarian, and so forth.

Vegans will not wear silk or leather or even wool. Clothing restriction varries between "normal" vegitarians.

A vegetarian wildlife watcher is watching a bunch of elephants in their natural habitat in Africa. There's one really old one. After 2 weeks of following the animals around the old elephant dies.
Can the wildlife watcher eat him (because the animal did not suffer needlessly and did not die by human hand, the most common arguments used by vegetarians) and still be a vegetarian?

A vegetarian wildlife watcher is watching a bunch of elephants in their natural habitat in Africa. There's one really old one. After 2 weeks of following the animals around the old elephant dies.
Can the wildlife watcher eat him (because the animal did not suffer needlessly and did not die by human hand, the most common arguments used by vegetarians) and still be a vegetarian?

Um, I don't think so. A vegitarian doesn't eat meat, regardless of how it lived/died. When I converted, my mom wanted to share meals with me. She thought that because the meat "died for her and not me" it was ok for me to eat it. But that pretty much defeats the purpose. I'm still eating animal flesh.

I was wondering, can vegans eat honey? Or is that an animal produced product?

It's animal produced. Fiancee who is vegan says nay.

Can vegetarians eat fish, or are they not real vegetarians if they do?

My mother is vegetarian but eats fish. The logic is that it's rather hard to make a fish suffer, I believe.

Can vegetarians wear leather?

Some do. Vegans can't. Or rather don't.

Can vegans wear silk?

No.

Can vegetarians or vegans eat silk or leather, if they were so inclined?

Presumably a vegetarian could eat silk because it's not actually flesh and blood of the animal. No on all other counts.

If a vegetarian wearing fur stops being a vegetarian, does that mean that rabbits aren't vegetarians either? If you made a rabbit wear a leather jacket, would that stop it being a vegetarian?

Um, negated.

It's animal produced. Fiancee who is vegan says nay.

Well, not really, its just collected by animals.

Actually, it's bee spit, so it is produced by them. Pollen is collected; honey is produced.

Well, not really, its just collected by animals.

Logic behind it is here: http://www.vegansociety.com/html/animals/exploitation/bees.php

My mother is vegetarian but eats fish. The logic is that it's rather hard to make a fish suffer, I believe.


Heh. I chuckle at that simply because watching fish suffer was the final straw for me. I read a few books and had discussions and thoughts and all that, sure. But in the end, I couldn't eat another bite of meat after a company fishing trip. Watching 30 middle-aged men rape the ocean was just too much to stand! :( :eek: :mp5:

Um, I don't think so. A vegitarian doesn't eat meat, regardless of how it lived/died. When I converted, my mom wanted to share meals with me. She thought that because the meat "died for her and not me" it was ok for me to eat it. But that pretty much defeats the purpose. I'm still eating animal flesh.
My 2 younger brothers are vegetarians which kinda forced me to think about it too. I chose not to be a vegetarian because the human is by nature omnivorous AND I think animals are inferior to humans.
But being a vegetarian is not about not wanting to eat animal flesh. It's about not wanting animals to suffer for human beings. If an animal doesn't suffer from human hand AT ALL, why can't a vegetarian eat it?

And a question to the vegetarians/vegans. Do you eat Gelatine? (It's the dutch name. It's made out of animal bones and is found in sweets, such as winegums)

Uuh... vegans probably wouldn't eat honey, no, but I dunno. It is technically an animal byproduct but I'm unsure if they care about bees. I'll say yes.

Here's a another question: Can they eat maple syrup? Do they care about trees? They eat wheat and salad and fruit, so maple syrup is OK I imagine.

A vegetarian wildlife watcher is watching a bunch of elephants in their natural habitat in Africa. There's one really old one. After 2 weeks of following the animals around the old elephant dies.
Can the wildlife watcher eat him (because the animal did not suffer needlessly and did not die by human hand, the most common arguments used by vegetarians) and still be a vegetarian?
I should say so, yes, if their argument against meat eating is humans killing them, which is my reason. But if they don't like meat there's no reason they would.

I'm a bit bizzare:

I drink milk.
I don't eat eggs, but only because they're squishy and gross, not for cruelty reasons.
I don't eat meat, I don't like humans killing animals.
I don't wear leather, I don't like humans killing animals.
I'm not gonna buy a car with leather seats, I don't like humans killing animals.
I wear wool if I feel like it... what's with that? ...You made that one up. Sheep NEED to be shaved, they get really hot in the summer.
I don't own/eat any rabbits.
I'm not in Africa so there is a significant lack of old elephants, but if one died of TOTALLY natural causes and had no human intervention and diseases that would make me sick or kill me then I'd taste it. If it was good, I'd store it in a giant freezer cuz' boy oh boy, that there's a lotta food!
You ain't gettin' me to eat silk or leather, nutty.
I can't understand the rabbit leather vegetarian question. I'll go with D; Asparagus.
Nine.

Here's a another question: Can they eat maple syrup? Do they care about trees? They eat wheat and salad and fruit, so maple syrup is OK I imagine.


Only fruitarians wouldn't eat that, but they're total nutcases. They only eat stuff that has fallen from a tree.

I ate elephant once. My dad brought a little bag from South-Africa. It was dried elephant meat from an elephant that died of old age. Hence my question.

would a vegan drink slurm? After all, the animal want's you to drink it...

My 2 younger brothers are vegetarians which kinda forced me to think about it too. I chose not to be a vegetarian because the human is by nature omnivorous AND I think animals are inferior to humans.
But being a vegetarian is not about not wanting to eat animal flesh. It's about not wanting animals to suffer for human beings. If an animal doesn't suffer from human hand AT ALL, why can't a vegetarian eat it?

And a question to the vegetarians/vegans. Do you eat Gelatine? (It's the dutch name. It's made out of animal bones and is found in sweets, such as winegums)

No, that's your definition of vegitarianism. There are many reasons: environmental, religious, the care for animal rights. But a vegitarian does not eat meat, by definition. If he/she eats meat, they are omnivorous. The life/death of the animal in question is a secondary consideration.

they shouldnt but they should be made too it could be like nazis only feeding jews pig product it would cause a dillema/

I'm not entirely sure that rabbits have anything whatsoever to do with vegetarians wearing fur coats, unless...

A) The rabbit is the coat, in which case it has no real preference as to what it eats any more.
B) The rabbit is wearing the coat, and therefore wouldn't be a vegetarian any more.
C) The rabbit has eaten the coat, in which case by previous logic it would no longer be vegetarian.
D) The rabbit is on a field watching the vegetarian, and wondering what on earth this strange person has to do with its life. The answer is nothing, and the rabbit is still a vegetarian. In fact, it's a herbivore.

I always thought that Fruitarians were made up by the Notting Hill film...

But being a vegetarian is not about not wanting to eat animal flesh. It's about not wanting animals to suffer for human beings.

Apparently I missed this at the last Vegetarian Meeting! I'm a vegetarian because the meat industry is TERRIBLE for the environment and people's health, and because I think eating flesh is really disgusting. People and animals both suffer all the time, so I know I'm not really sparing animals much pain by not eating meat.

If an animal doesn't suffer from human hand AT ALL, why can't a vegetarian eat it?

They could if they wanted to. It's a personal choice. You're assuming that all vegetarians are vegetarians for the same reason.

I swear, meat-eaters think up these inane "questions" for vegetarians just to give them a hard time and piss them off. This argument has been done to death (and beaten constantly post-mortem).

religious ok
but environmental? how can a vegetarian be vegetarian for environmental reasons?

And vegetarians don't eat meat because they CHOOSE not to. Not by definition.

Apparently I missed this at the last Vegetarian Meeting! I'm a vegetarian because the meat industry is TERRIBLE for the environment and people's health, and because I think eating flesh is really disgusting. People and animals both suffer all the time, so I know I'm not really sparing animals much pain by not eating meat.



They could if they wanted to. It's a personal choice. You're assuming that all vegetarians are vegetarians for the same reason.

I swear, meat-eaters think up these inane "questions" for vegetarians just to give them a hard time and piss them off. This argument has been done to death (and beaten constantly post-mortem).

The post started off well. Wierd questions are fun. But you're right - vegetarians chose their lifestyle for very different reasons.

Can vegetarians bite their nails?

I swear, meat-eaters think up these inane "questions" for vegetarians just to give them a hard time and piss them off. This argument has been done to death (and beaten constantly post-mortem).
I've been there, but since I put some serious consideration in becoming a vegetarian or not I do NOT intend to give them a hard time. It's just a question. Vegetarians ask me all the time wheter or not I feel guilty for murdering a pig or a chicken or whatever. I don't blame them. I just answer with a simple "No"

Oh yeah:
Meat is not murder...










It's slaughter

religious ok
but environmental? how can a vegetarian be vegetarian for environmental reasons?

Because the meat industry, including widespread fishing, is really really bad for the environment. Google it. It's pretty fascinating, even if it doesn't change your mind.

Can vegetarians bite their nails?

Heretic! ;)

religious ok
but environmental? how can a vegetarian be vegetarian for environmental reasons?

And vegetarians don't eat meat because they CHOOSE not to. Not by definition.

Sorry, I think you're missing my point. A vegitarian does not eat meat. If he can't or won't, it doesn't matter. Someone who consumes animal flesh is an omnivore or carnivore. The definition of a vegetarian is a person who subsists on plants (mostly, depending on your stance on fish).

Breeding animals for slaughter is very wasteful of natural resources. You grow grain, feed the cow, and eat the cow. This process is far less efficient than just eating the grain. If every American went veg, we could feed something like half of the world's starving population.

And a question to the vegetarians/vegans. Do you eat Gelatine? (It's the dutch name. It's made out of animal bones and is found in sweets, such as winegums)

Nope, as a vegetarian, I don't eat gelatine. It's a real bitch too, because it's in SO MANY things. I also have to be careful of most cheeses, because the majority of them contain rennet (which is taken from the gut of farm animals at the time of slaughter and added to the cheese to make it more readily digestible for humans).

In answer to the original question, no, vegans don't eat honey. One of my vegan friends believes that the bees are basically enslaved, and thinks that is wrong.

I chose not to be a vegetarian because the human is by nature omnivorous AND I think animals are inferior to humans.

The reverse of this is actually why I chose to become a vegetarian. I don't believe the human animal is anything 'by nature' in this regard. We've separated ourselves from nature to such a degree that I find "we're omnivorous by nature" to be a rather hollow arguement. But whatever, to each their own, I guess. I also don't really make a distinction between humans and animals in an "us" and "them" sort of fashion. Sure, humans are different from other animals but not more than a dog is, say, different from a giraffe.

Heretic! ;)
Whoa :eek:



Can vegans/vegetarians eat foods that needed animals to die indirectly? Like... uhm... if... well, hypothetically, if machines that made non-meat food were made out of meat, could they eat that?


And a question to the vegetarians/vegans. Do you eat Gelatine? (It's the dutch name. It's made out of animal bones and is found in sweets, such as winegums)
If you mean that horse hooves stuff in marshmallows and stuff, no. Even if that's not what you're talking about I wouldn't eat it.

I also have to be careful of most cheeses, because the majority of them contain rennet (which is taken from the gut of farm animals at the time of slaughter and added to the cheese to make it more readily digestible for humans).
You're kidding. I have pizza all the time. What about brand name cheeses you buy at the grocery store? Sargento? That's what I use when I make pizza.

Can vegans/vegetarians eat foods that needed animals to die indirectly? Like... uhm... if... well, hypothetically, if machines that made non-meat food were made out of meat, could they eat that?

:confused:

Machines made out of meat? That... is a strange notion. I wouldn't personally eat it, but it might be different for others.

LOL, yeah, it was a bizzare question... hypothetical...


Did you catch my cheese question? It's rather important, pizza is a big dietary staple for me...

Just saw it, Westerney. I'm not sure whether Sargento cheeses are rennet-free or not.

You're best bet would be to ring the company's information line and ask. Or you could probably just throw some terms into a search engine and find out.

There are cheeses that are labeled 'vegetarian cheese', and there are certain varieties of cheese that don't have any rennet in them.

Sometimes 'rennet' is listed in the ingredients on the pack, sometimes the listing is 'enyzmes', which is rather ambiguous. So yeah, you really have to go on a 'cheese by cheese' basis, as there really isn't any hard and fast rule as to which brands or types of cheese within a specific brand are 'safe'

Interesting, I'll check the ingredients. Thanks.



...Enzymes...

Uhh...

Can vegans/vegetarians eat enzymes?

EGADS! NO! http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~veggie/nonveg/cheese.html

I've never met a vegetarian who was such because they care what the animals felt. My vegetarian friends don't eat meat because they don't like the taste/texture. Most eat fish, because it doesn't taste of meat. Some even eat poultry, but not red meat, it's just the iron taste of red meat they don't like.

Looking a little deeper however, the definition of vegetarian is:
someone who lives on a diet excluding all meat and fish.

Therefore, by definition a vegetarian cannot eat fish, because the definition of vegetarian says they can't.

Likewise for vegans:
A vegetarian who eats plant products only, especially one who uses no products derived from animals, as fur or leather.

So technically a vegan can wear fur, silk or leather. They can even wear honey; but if they eat it, they are not a vegan. The generally accepted use of vegan however means that a vegan is expected not even to wear animal products.

I always thought that Fruitarians were made up by the Notting Hill film...

No, I've met one. Crazy girl, had very funny ideas. I had to laugh at her lots. Very good looking though, you can't get fat on a fruitarian diet, and she had really clear skin, I wonder if that's linked aw well?

I've never met a vegetarian who was such because they care what the animals felt. My vegetarian friends don't eat meat because they don't like the taste/texture. Most eat fish, because it doesn't taste of meat. Some even eat poultry, but not red meat, it's just the iron taste of red meat they don't like.

Looking a little deeper however, the definition of vegetarian is:
someone who lives on a diet excluding all meat and fish.

Therefore, by definition a vegetarian cannot eat fish, because the definition of vegetarian says they can't.

Likewise for vegans:
A vegetarian who eats plant products only, especially one who uses no products derived from animals, as fur or leather.

So technically a vegan can wear fur, silk or leather. They can even wear honey; but if they eat it, they are not a vegan. The generally accepted use of vegan however means that a vegan is expected not even to wear animal products.

Thank you for the definition. For the record, however, I LOVE the taste of meat. I choose not to eat it for several other reasons. But I really miss Chinese food like beef terriakki strips. We'd all order them and call them squirrel-on-a-stick. Mmm... Squirrel....

... You all seem to have missed something fairly simple here...

Honey is produced by bees yes.
But the bee is NOT an animal... It has 6 legs and is classed as an INSECT!

Here is a link where it also says bees are insects and not animals:
http://www.wellesley.edu/Biology/Web/Species/ahoneybee.html

They can, but that’s only if they no longer wish to carry the title of Vegan. I would think that a tougher question would be, can a Vegan eat a fruit that was pollinated by a bee and still be called a vegan?

Well, Westerney, it would depend on the enzymes. Every time you swallow your own saliva, you're basically eating enzymes. Enzyme is a very ambiguous term in this instance, because it can mean so many things. In the case of rennet, this enyzme can come from animals or it can come from fungus (or it can be created via modified bacteria in a lab). So, when it says 'enyzmes' you really have no way of knowing which it is, unless you find a source of information for that brand/cheese type.

Honey is produced by bees yes.

But the bee is NOT an animal... It has 6 legs and is classed as an INSECT!

Err... have you ever studied basic biology? Insects ARE animals.

... You all seem to have missed something fairly simple here...

Honey is produced by bees yes.
But the bee is NOT an animal... It has 6 legs and is classed as an INSECT!

Here is a link where it also says bees are insects and not animals:
http://www.wellesley.edu/Biology/Web/Species/ahoneybee.html
Insects belonging of course to the kingdom animalia. :rolleyes:

I'll believe what I believe even if I'm wrong :)

It seems to make more sense my way, in my opinion... It's an insect and an insect is a bug.. :P

<-- Naturally insane and a little demented.

<-- Naturally insane and a little demented.

Ah, that's okay then ;)

These aren't the bugs you're looking for. You can go about your business. Move along. :)

It's called the "Food Chain," we (all living things, plant, animal, protozoan) are all here to consume each other and contribute to the "Circle of Life" notion.

You can view Disney's "Lion King," or South Park's "Circle of Poo," they both provide the same message.

To use "suffering" as a reason to not consume animal products is silly and discriminatory against our vegetable Kingdom friends; who says that plants do not experience pain or loss?

Fish are meat to say otherwise makes you not a vegetaraian if you eat it.. Sheesh what is with hypocritical Vegetarians.

Maybe those meat eating Veggies should make a new name up like Neo-Vegetarains.

It's called the "Food Chain," we (all living things, plant, animal, protozoan) are all here to consume each other and contribute to the "Circle of Life" notion.

You can view Disney's "Lion King," or South Park's "Circle of Poo," they both provide the same message.

To use "suffering" as a reason to not consume animal products is silly and discriminatory against our vegetable Kingdom friends; who says that plants do not experience pain or loss?

I sorta place my ideas of it in Survival of the fittest... I mean.. a starved lion is not likely to care bout your suffering if he can get a decent meal of you.
Do unto others ;)

To use "suffering" as a reason to not consume animal products is silly and discriminatory against our vegetable Kingdom friends; who says that plants do not experience pain or loss?

While it is true that we do not know for ABSOLUTE certain that plants do not experience those things, we can reasonably assume that they do not, because they show no signs of it. Animals do. You cut a branch off a plant, it just grows a (often healthier and more productive) branch and doesn't show any signs of pain. You cut the leg off a human, it screams and tries to kill you, and does not grow another.

Then again, you might just be utilizing the whole 'satire' thing.

It's called the "Food Chain," we (all living things, plant, animal, protozoan) are all here to consume each other and contribute to the "Circle of Life" notion.

You can view Disney's "Lion King," or South Park's "Circle of Poo," they both provide the same message.

To use "suffering" as a reason to not consume animal products is silly and discriminatory against our vegetable Kingdom friends; who says that plants do not experience pain or loss?
The food chain is outdated. It’s called the food web now. It’s much more accurate of a description than the food chain.

While it is true that we do not know for ABSOLUTE certain that plants do not experience those things, we can reasonably assume that they do not, because they show no signs of it. Animals do. You cut a branch off a plant, it just grows a (often healthier and more productive) branch and doesn't show any signs of pain. You cut the leg off a human, it screams and tries to kill you, and does not grow another.

Then again, you might just be utilizing the whole 'satire' thing.
Plants do have a sensory perception. They know when it’s about to rain. They know where the sun is. And they even know when an insect has landed in it’s trap.

As has already been explained, there are varying types of vegetarians.

If you're asking about eating honey in a strictly vegetarian diet, I think the answer is no. Then again, I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum in terms of my eating habits.

What about fishsticks ans Chicken Nuggets, there made of everything BUT fish and Chicken...

of course they can, they are mostly hypocrites and or certifiable

Vegans are funny.....they won't eat anything that was ever "alive" so they must reconcile that with the knowledge that those carrots were at one time alive and might one day rise up and become our evil overlords if not for their eating them. ;)

To use "suffering" as a reason to not consume animal products is silly and discriminatory against our vegetable Kingdom friends; who says that plants do not experience pain or loss?
Umm.... they don't have anything that even resembles a nervous system.

Umm.... they don't have anything that even resembles a nervous system.

Neither do trees....but we know that they communicate with each other using chemicals. Who is to say vegetables don't?

Umm.... they don't have anything that even resembles a nervous system.
neither do eggs or milk

i suppose...but why would you want to eat money?

. . .

My mother is vegetarian but eats fish. The logic is that it's rather hard to make a fish suffer, I believe.

. . .



Your mother is not a vegitarian.

Plants do have a sensory perception. They know when it’s about to rain. They know where the sun is. And they even know when an insect has landed in it’s trap.
Has nothing to do with senses. It's all about humidity/temperature/sunshine/chemicals having their effect directly on biological processes. For instance: a plant "knows" its roots must grow down and its leaves up because of the difference on how they react on auxilline (I think). Not because they "feel" their roots are in the ground, and the leaves are in open air.

Vegetarian quote:
"Why are you a vegetarian?"
"I hate plants - they all have to die!"

Have vegetarians/vegans considered the number of animals that die in teh process of threshing the grain that goes into the food they eat? Rabbits, mice, snakes, gophers, you name it.

Sorry, I think you're missing my point. A vegitarian does not eat meat. If he can't or won't, it doesn't matter. Someone who consumes animal flesh is an omnivore or carnivore. The definition of a vegetarian is a person who subsists on plants (mostly, depending on your stance on fish).

Breeding animals for slaughter is very wasteful of natural resources. You grow grain, feed the cow, and eat the cow. This process is far less efficient than just eating the grain. If every American went veg, we could feed something like half of the world's starving population.
But the grain given to cows can't be eaten by humans often; cows have better digestive systems so can get energy from food that would do nothing for humans

Yup, vegans can eat honey, They can also eat meat, fish and many others things.


They seem to choose not to though, rather strange.

The idea of bees being enslaved seems rather silly to me.

They're practically brainless, have no will of their own, and are basically just little robot honey makers. They'd make honey all day long even if we didn't steal it off them.

What about bacteria?
Practically everything is covered in bacteria. Water is full of it, and it's on the surface, and in, basically everything from the highest parts of the atmosphere, down to several miles below the surface of the earth.

Every time you eat or drink anything you kill millions of micro-organisms, including bacteria, but also tiny mites and various other extremely small multi-cellular animals.

Also:
Ranching in general uses land that is unsuitable for growing crops. Animal feed in general is made from grain which is unsuitable for human consumption. And the US, across all agricultural industries, produces far more food than it can possibly eat. A very large proportion of US-grown food, plant and animal, is wasted. The global food problem is one of distribution, politics, and market forces, not, as many believe, one of food scarcity.

Also: pain is in your brain. No brain, no pain. Plants don't have brains. Some of them are not vegetarians, too. Venus flytrap, pitcher-plant, etc.

Fish have brains and they do feel pain. Certainly more pain than an insect feels, since they have super-tiny brains.

Growing crops kills animals. Cropland used to be wildland that supported animals, so every acre of crops is the death of untold millions of unborn organisms. Planting and harvesting crops kills lots of things too. And of course, pesticides kill pests, some of which are animals.

The hard truth is, it is very complicated, and you can't really draw an obvious line and say, everything on this side is 'wrong' and everything on that side is 'not wrong' and have any reasonable way to support that argument.

So do what you feel is best, but recognize that your personal assessment is almost guaranteed to be flawed, and you can't really get pissed at someone else for having a different personal assesment of what is OK to eat.

-Lep

Oh yeah, gelatin. Gelatin is still an animal product made by boiling bones to extract a substance from the marrow.

Gelatin is used in Jello. It's also in a lot of different kinds of candy, including Milk Duds.

-Lep

What about bacteria?
Practically everything is covered in bacteria. Water is full of it, and it's on the surface, and in, basically everything from the highest parts of the atmosphere, down to several miles below the surface of the earth.

Every time you eat or drink anything you kill millions of micro-organisms, including bacteria, but also tiny mites and various other extremely small multi-cellular animals.

Also:
Ranching in general uses land that is unsuitable for growing crops. Animal feed in general is made from grain which is unsuitable for human consumption. And the US, across all agricultural industries, produces far more food than it can possibly eat. A very large proportion of US-grown food, plant and animal, is wasted. The global food problem is one of distribution, politics, and market forces, not, as many believe, one of food scarcity.

Also: pain is in your brain. No brain, no pain. Plants don't have brains. Some of them are not vegetarians, too. Venus flytrap, pitcher-plant, etc.

Fish have brains and they do feel pain. Certainly more pain than an insect feels, since they have super-tiny brains.

Growing crops kills animals. Cropland used to be wildland that supported animals, so every acre of crops is the death of untold millions of unborn organisms. Planting and harvesting crops kills lots of things too. And of course, pesticides kill pests, some of which are animals.

The hard truth is, it is very complicated, and you can't really draw an obvious line and say, everything on this side is 'wrong' and everything on that side is 'not wrong' and have any reasonable way to support that argument.

So do what you feel is best, but recognize that your personal assessment is almost guaranteed to be flawed, and you can't really get pissed at someone else for having a different personal assesment of what is OK to eat.

-Lep

So Brains - feeling?
Then: Sponges and jelly fish feel no pain? Neither has a brain so that would be your statement... Vegans can eat them?

As a vegetarian with a tried-to-be-vegan mother, I will answer all your questions.

I was wondering, can vegans eat honey? Or is that an animal produced product? It depends on the vegan. Honey is a very borderline food.

Can vegetarians eat fish, or are they not real vegetarians if they do? A fish is an animal. 'Nuff said.

Can vegetarians wear leather? Most of us try not to as much as possible.

Can vegans wear silk? I have no clue. Probably they also try not to.

Can vegetarians or vegans eat silk or leather, if they were so inclined? Anyone insane enough to eat silk or leather wouldn't be a vegetarian or a vegan in the first place. But no.

If a vegetarian wearing fur stops being a vegetarian, does that mean that rabbits aren't vegetarians either? If you made a rabbit wear a leather jacket, would that stop it being a vegetarian? Since the only fur coat a rabbit has is its own, that doesn't really fall under the domain of vegetarianism. The rabbit isn't intelligent enough to choose to wear the leather jacket so that is moot too - and on a related note, if you forced a vegetarian human into leather they'd still be vegetarian because it wasn't their choice.

ANYWAY.

Just some things to ponder.

So Brains - feeling?
Then: Sponges and jelly fish feel no pain? Neither has a brain so that would be your statement... Vegans can eat them?

Well, I'm no vegetarian. I would assume a vegetarian remains a vegetarian as long as he or she believes that his or her diet is vegetarian, according to his or her own standards.

But sponges are not classified as animals at all (they are colonies of symbiotic single-celled organisms). And jelly fish, phylum 'Cnidaria' http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761562576/Cnidarians.html do have a central nervous system, but not a 'brain' exactly - http://www.earthsky.com/shows/shows.php?t=20030619 due to their radially organized bodies. Still it might be fair to say that, even lacking brains, jellies might feel pain in some way. I guess it would be up to the vegetarian how to classify them.

Which goes right back to the point I was trying to make - that there are grey areas, you can't just draw a line and say, definitively, that one set of things is 'ok' to eat and the other 'not ok'. Or you can, as an individual, but its unrealistic to expect anyone else to adopt an identical position.

For that matter, its unrealistic to insist that a vegetarian be fully aware of every ingredient and its origin in every item of food they eat, at least in the US.

I noticed the other day that my seaweed salad (from the Japanese deli) has jellyfish in it. Which is fine with me, but I had assumed it was a vegetarian salad. Which maybe it is, see above.

I was wondering, can vegans eat honey? Or is that an animal produced product?
Can vegetarians eat fish, or are they not real vegetarians if they do?
Can vegetarians wear leather?
Can vegans wear silk?
Can vegetarians or vegans eat silk or leather, if they were so inclined?
If a vegetarian wearing fur stops being a vegetarian, does that mean that rabbits aren't vegetarians either? If you made a rabbit wear a leather jacket, would that stop it being a vegetarian?

Just some things to ponder.

I thought the first and second questions were really intuitive, but it just kinda went downhill from there. I think if a vegetarian eats fish he or she is deemed "kosher parve." As for all the obscure comments about animal clothing et al. i think that all depends on how many puppy mills you've raided with PETA.

Don't they only eat fruit that fell of a tree? They don't drink fermented beverages (beer and such) because of the yeast. Damn... poor people.

As uch as this post makes me, a veggie, feel like an animal on display at the zoo...

What about bacteria?

Well since bactiera have neither a nervous system or nerve ending to feel pain they can't be considered suffering if you use them to make enzymes.

Same goes for plants, though they might react biologically to certain stimuli they do not have the capability to feel pain.

However animals do. Also animal by-products often cause suffering (battery farmed eggs etc.), so hence why some vegetarians don't eat them. The same could be said for honey, but that depends on your personal viewpoint I suppose.

That said it is down to personal choice, and I'm not going to defend my opinions any more, since I can eat what I like. Some of these questions are getting stupid...

What would a vegan do if he got a tapeworm or a crabs infection?

I am one of those vegetarians who eat fish. I think honey would tecnically be against vegans, because it feeds larva, which is basically what milk does. Along with that elephant question if I found a dead elephant I would never eat it. I dont know how it died, when it died, why it died. If you found a dead fish lieing in a pond would you eat it? Since it was found in an elephant farm though I would try it. But since I dont eat meat because I dont like it I probably wouldnt eat it again. I am against fur though, but silk I am for. Its animal waste and unless you say we blast manure off the world I think it is okay to use it.

why the hell isnt this topic dead

I don't know about the rest of you lot, but all this talk about food is making me hungry for some meat. Just to really upset you vegans, when I lived in NZ I used to eat fresh-killed steak raw. A friend owned a farm, and at times I would adopt a lamb or calf for a while if the mother had died. So the still-steaming meat pack was payment. Fresh raw meat's delicious. Very very tender. A bit of soya sauce and wasabi and you have a meal.
Anyway getting back to the Topic...
I personally can't accept a diet that cannot give you all your adequate vitamin and mineral needs. Veganism makes no sense to me. If you're not careful you can die from a Vitamin B-12 deficiency. You usually hae to take supplements. So how can it be healthy? Vegatarianism on the hand is ok. I tried that for a few years, but the call of the wild and the blood-lust proved too strong in the end.

I hear quite a bit about the militant vegetarians, but I have very rarely seen them live. In fact the vast majority of vegetarians I know (myself included) really couldn't care what the hell anyone else eats. We have made a personal decision and so has anyone else who eats; and as far as I know that is everyone.

Interesting things to think about:

Janists are a religous group that believes that they should not kill anything. They do infact wear masks to try and keep microorganisms out. They also sweep infront of themselves to move any bugs or insects. Of course they are vegetarians, but can only eat food that will not be killed in order to ingest it.

Cows and chickens are considered herbivores not vegetarians. Consider that mass production of these animals involve cannibalism. Egg layers are ground up and fed back to other chickens, and cows for that matter Milking cows are just the same; where do you think mad cow came from? Now here is the question, can these animals still be considered herbivores?

Anatomically people are supposed to eat meat. Upon studying our digestive track and teeth structure you will find that it is supposed to only be eaten as a supplement to our diet. This means once or twice a week as a side dish. How many of you who insist that the only way to be healthy involves eating meat follow this rule of thumb?

My last question is the most important. Why do meat eaters view vegetarians as a threat. I have never tried to convience anyone to become vegetarian, I have never made a comment on what someone else is eating. Many times have others questioned me and tried to get me to eat meat. One man I work with tells me all the time I should eat meat the day I get married. So, what's the deal?

There seem to be two distinct groups of vegetarians in the world: philosophical vegatarians (who have a moral objection to eating meat) and practical vegetarians (who believe that eating meat isn't good for their body/health). There is some overlap between the two, but most of the vegetarians I know have definitely fit into one group or the other.

I can respect both, but it's when they want me to feel bad about not being a vegetarian that I get annoyed (and it seems mainly to be philospohical vegetarians who like to preach at me).

As long as animals are processed without unneccessary cruelty, I have no problem eating them. I eat mammals, fish, birds, reptiles, crustaceans, molluscs, eggs and dairy produce without the slightest twinge of guilt. Heck, I even eat inedible offal! :p

Reminds of a joke I once heard (can't remember the source): "If you go to a vegetarian household for dinner, be sure to demand a meat-based dish be prepared for yourself - if the situations were reversed, you can bet they would demand that you provide a vegetarian meal for them!" ;)

At the end of the day, humans are an omnivorous species (as evidence by our enlarged canines, intestinal structure and the fact that our closest living relatives - chimps - are omnivores). If people choose to go against that for whatever reason, all fine and good - just don't expect the rest of us to feel the same way...

*Same goes with wearing leather or fur - as long as it hasn't come from an endangered species, no harm/no foul in my book.

moooo
http://www.imcajetina.co.yu/images/images/govedje.jpg

I hear quite a bit about the militant vegetarians, but I have very rarely seen them live. In fact the vast majority of vegetarians I know (myself included) really couldn't care what the hell anyone else eats. We have made a personal decision and so has anyone else who eats; and as far as I know that is everyone.

Interesting things to think about:

Janists are a religous group that believes that they should not kill anything. They do infact wear masks to try and keep microorganisms out. They also sweep infront of themselves to move any bugs or insects. Of course they are vegetarians, but can only eat food that will not be killed in order to ingest it.

Cows and chickens are considered herbivores not vegetarians. Consider that mass production of these animals involve cannibalism. Egg layers are ground up and fed back to other chickens, and cows for that matter Milking cows are just the same; where do you think mad cow came from? Now here is the question, can these animals still be considered herbivores?

Anatomically people are supposed to eat meat. Upon studying our digestive track and teeth structure you will find that it is supposed to only be eaten as a supplement to our diet. This means once or twice a week as a side dish. How many of you who insist that the only way to be healthy involves eating meat follow this rule of thumb?

My last question is the most important. Why do meat eaters view vegetarians as a threat. I have never tried to convience anyone to become vegetarian, I have never made a comment on what someone else is eating. Many times have others questioned me and tried to get me to eat meat. One man I work with tells me all the time I should eat meat the day I get married. So, what's the deal?

Seriously dude, I respect your views - you seem quite reasonable. But trust me when I say that militant vegetarians ARE out there. I have dealt with plenty of the course of my life. I don't so much view them as a threat, but an annoyance. I don't especially really being nagged at by anyone. On the flipside, once I know someone is a vegetarian, I won't hassle them to eat meat - it would be an excercise in futility.

For the meat intake being a supplement to our diet: yes, you are quite correct. But then again, if we did everything the way nature intended, we'd still be swinging around in trees, dying at about 30 years of age. We wouldn't even be having this discussion right now - we'd be grunting at each other and thumping our chests to see who gets to mate and who doesn't...:p

moooo
http://www.imcajetina.co.yu/images/images/govedje.jpg

Damn dude, you're making me hungry!

My last question is the most important. Why do meat eaters view vegetarians as a threat. I have never tried to convience anyone to become vegetarian, I have never made a comment on what someone else is eating. Many times have others questioned me and tried to get me to eat meat. One man I work with tells me all the time I should eat meat the day I get married. So, what's the deal?
Most meat eaters don't have a beef (no pun intended) with the majority of vegetarians. But there are quite a few out there who feel that they need to inform anyone who eats meat that they are evil and immoral.

I'd say the most convincing argument that I've heard for vegetarianism (or at least greatly reduced meat consumption) is the fact that it's more efficient to just grow grain to feed to humans instead of feeding it to cattle, then eating the beef (and yes, the grain we feed to cattle isn't fit for human consumption, but you can just as easily grow sweet corn or soy beans on a field used for field corn). Anyone who's taken a high school level bio class knows that about 90% of the caloric energy in food is lost every time you move up a trophic level. So if people ate much less meat, we wouldn't need as much farmland to feed huge numbers of livestock, and we would be able to produce more food to feed the hungry.
However, as someone else (sorry, forget who) already pointed out, it's not a problem of too little food, it's a problem of logistics and politics. For instance, we offered huge amounts of corn, the same corn that you and I eat on a regular basis, to Zimbabwe, but Robert Mugabe declined the offer, to strengthen his government monopoly on the food supply, and because Greenpeace assured him that it was poisonous (yes, the same corn they make your Corn Flakes out of), because it was genetically modified. And every year, the government pays farmers to not plant, so the price of whatever they grow doesn't drop too far.
And regarding those vegetarians who just think that eating meat is cruel: Well, I really can't argue that either way. It's a simple difference of opinion, and I'm no more right than they are. But meat is damn tasty, so I'm going to keep eating it.

Er... I sorta came off as really anti-vegetarian there. Wasn't my intention, I was just trying to get it across that there are other problems out there if you're going to use that argument (although it's still valid, if a little [dare I say?] narrow minded).