NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm told over and over how you Canadians get free healthcare while we Americans resort to insurance.

Then tell me, is your healthcare more reliable than that of American healthcare? I'm curious. I assume that since the Canadian system resorts to taxes that it would be over lesser quality.

If I were to arrive in a Canadian hospitol, as a middle-class American, in a bloody mess from a car accident, can I trust that I would live to see my next birthday? Or wince and wish that I was back in America where my insurance would be raised a couple hundred bucks the next day?

if you are rich, there is obviously no better place in the world than america to recieve healthcare

compared to GMO's and medical insurance, quality speaking, we are as good or better in many things.

Or major issues are waiting lists for most specific tests and some surgerys, and our top end technology is not as amazing as yours.

For the people it works much better, for the rich its not quite as good.

You'll be treated differently depending on where you are. Healthcare is handled by province here, so it depends where you had the accident. But no provinces have problems or enormous issues with their systems, so much that you can't trust them. Overall, you can be sure you'll be given a good treatment for your injuries and trauma. But remember not everything (especially in our healthcare system) is free. We do have some stuff covered by insurance.

I'm a Canadian in Ottawa, Ontario. Once at a party I fell and cut my left hand which reached all the way into my carpal tunnel artery, I would have bled to death if I had not been taken to hospital and and treated. I received care from a plastic surgeon who repaired the damage with minimal scarring and I escaped with only minor nerve damage. I never ever saw a bill. I'm more than willing to pay the cost it takes to provide good healthcare. Canada is a rich country and should continue to do its utmost to reduce waiting lines and maintain, p'raps even improve, the quality it provides to the taxpayers.

You'll be treated differently depending on where you are. Healthcare is handled by province here, so it depends where you had the accident. But no provinces have problems or enormous issues with their systems, so much that you can't trust them. Overall, you can be sure you'll be given a good treatment for your injuries and trauma. But remember not everything (especially in our healthcare system) is free. We do have some stuff covered by insurance.

mostly small thing though nothing really major. Anything that isn't serious you may have to cover, but at most you'll have to pay like $100 cnd

I'm a Canadian in Ottawa, Ontario. Once at a party I fell and cut my left hand which reached all the way into my carpal tunnel artery, I would have bled to death if I had not been taken to hospital and and treated. I received care from a plastic surgeon who repaired the damage with minimal scarring and I escaped with only minor nerve damage. I never ever saw a bill. I'm more than willing to pay the cost it takes to provide good healthcare. Canada is a rich country and should continue to do its utmost to reduce waiting lines and maintain, p'raps even improve, the quality it provides to the taxpayers.


funny, i had the same thing happen to me as child

The worse thing with our health care is wait times for surgeries. But this is something I really belive that can be overcome within the current stucture of the system and just having better incentives for surgeon's being here and to open more facilities. The current stucture is great for the most common maladies. The poorest pay no monthly fee in my province of British Columbia and it slowly fazes in monthly fees the more you make which I think the bottom limit is $14 or $16 000 canadian. I forget how much the full premium is here 36 dollars last I looked. Probably went up. Thats what we get with a right wing Liberal party(Provincial or otherwise)

I live in Canada (and technically am a Canadian, although I don't like to say so because I am a dual-citizen...).

Comparing to the United States, I would say it follows the same pattern as most things. If your poor, Canada is WAY better. If your average, then they are about the same in quality, but Canada is probably a bit more convenient (you don't actually have to personally deal with the bills), and if you are rich then America is WAY better.

Overall the quality of the health care is fine for most common things, but for more specialized things, many people in Canada will go to the states (partly due to better quality care if your wealthy, more advanced treatments available in some fields, and the extensive waiting lines in Canada.

Of course if you're speaking from a personal level, on top of how wealthy you are, it also depends on how often you require medical attention... again, if you need ALOT of medical care, Canada is much better, if you are like the average person, it won't make much of a difference (although again, in Canada you don't have to personally deal with the bills so it's a bit more convenient for those who don't like dealing with things like that), and if you very rarely need medical attention, then you're going to be way better off in the States.

Edit: Oh yeah, and I voted no and I'm canadian, because I'm assuming this post is mostly comparing to the United States? If you don't perform a comparison then I would say the quality is good (for the most part).

Universal health care kicks ass! I've never waited to see a doctor in a hospital if I needed to be seen right away. Both my children were born in hospital and I was treated excellent.. I have had surgery to remove my gallbladder and I only waited 4 days. I live in Ottawa , Ontario.. and I think there is not a damn thing wrong in the grand scheme of things with our health care. Universal health care, is the envy of the world who do not have it.

Universal health care kicks ass! I've never waited to see a doctor in a hospital if I needed to be seen right away. Both my children were born in hospital and I was treated excellent.. I have had surgery to remove my gallbladder and I only waited 4 days. I live in Ottawa , Ontario.. and I think there is not a damn thing wrong in the grand scheme of things with our health care. Universal health care, is the envy of the world who do not have it.

Maybe in Ontario. ER waiting times in Alberta have been problematic in recent years. About 2 years ago, a young man (around the age of 25 as I recall), died after waiting 6 hours for treatment for an acute appendicitis attack. This wasn't in small-town rural Alberta where there may or may not be a physician qualified to remove an appendix, this was in Calgary.

Universal health care kicks ass! I've never waited to see a doctor in a hospital if I needed to be seen right away. Both my children were born in hospital and I was treated excellent.. I have had surgery to remove my gallbladder and I only waited 4 days. I live in Ottawa , Ontario.. and I think there is not a damn thing wrong in the grand scheme of things with our health care. Universal health care, is the envy of the world who do not have it.
4 days is pretty good for a minor surgery like that. In New Zealand, we also have universal health care (not quite free but close) but there are waiting lists for most non urgent procedures. My girlfriend had to wait over a month to get a biopsy done on a lump in her breast.

Americans, (and many Canadians), forget that, although we have universal health care, we have private clinics, doctors and surgeons, not to mention privately-owned laboratories. The wait lists can be skipped here for pretty much anything. Most importantly, though, if you have a supplimental health care plan, (such as blue cross), things like medications, prescription eyewear, ambulance rides and even non-elective surgeries can be covered. (Seniors, First Nations and the handicapped do not require a secondary plan to recieve these at a heavily reduced cost, or often for free).

Example: I had a knee injury at work, and the Workers Comensation Board paid for the required surgery. Since it was being paid for by a third party, I was able to go to a private surgeon, a private physiotherapy clinic and my crutches were purchased outright. From injury to surgery it was just over 1 month. I require a second, more extensive, knee surgery, but because it realtes to a previous injury the WCB will not be paying for it. However, because of universal health care I can get it done for free, I just have to wait a year for it. (Which is fine since it is neither affecting my ability to work or causing any pain.)

So, technically, we have a dual system, and I believe that it works quite well, even with our wait lists.

Maybe in Ontario. ER waiting times in Alberta have been problematic in recent years. About 2 years ago, a young man (around the age of 25 as I recall), died after waiting 6 hours for treatment for an acute appendicitis attack. This wasn't in small-town rural Alberta where there may or may not be a physician qualified to remove an appendix, this was in Calgary.

That incident proved to be a fatal result of the triage system that all emergency rooms face. Albiet the Foothols ER is heavily understaffed, (I know this from personal experience), thats a matter of funding than the a flaw in the system itself. Since that event there has been a diversion of funds to deal with ER wait times, but no matter what the triage system will force people with relatively serious injuries behind those that are under more duress. (A conscious patient complaining of chest pain is less important in a triage system that someone in cardiac arrest, for example.)

The vast majority of moderate and severe hospital visits apparently occur without problem; elective surgeries can have longer wait times. We've experienced no real problems thus far, though two of my relatives have had to wait up to a year for knee replacement. I cannot imagine a situation where one can die because they are too poor to afford decent medical care, barring an inability to get to a hospital.

I'd like to see a national pharmacare programme to cover drug costs, but I suspect (a) that it would take a will that this government does not have; and (b) that the aging demographics in the country would increase its long-term cost. That being said, in principle I'd still support it.

New Zealand (and Australia too i think) has subsidised prescriptions meaning any prescribed drug will usually cost no more than $10-15 for an expensive ones or free for cheap and common prescriptions like penicillin. The funny thing is that if we entered a universal free trade agreement with the US, we would probably have to abandon the bulk buying of medicines as it apparently constitutes a barrier to drug companies as they are not usually able to sell things directly to the public. I suspect that NAFTA would make it hard for Canada to set up a similar system. Yay for unregulated trade.

We got around that by having manufacturing sectors of common drug companies in Canada. That way its not that we're buying from an American company, but from the Canadain division of an American company.

Free health care is a bit of a misnomer. We still have to pay monthly premiums which are adjusted for low income people. Some provinces don't require the premium payments, like Ontario ( I think ). Being in 'the plan' is mandatory too but th emoney comes out of general revenue from tax income. I pay 45 or so bucks a month deducted off my paycheque for Alberta health care which my employer will start paying in a few months.

As far as the quality goes... I'd say it is adequate althouh my health is such that I don't need doctors lol. :D I did need some emergency though minor surgery last year and it was taken care of the next morning. They gave me cookies adn orange juice when I woke up. I felt so special. :D

Universal health care kicks ass! I've never waited to see a doctor in a hospital if I needed to be seen right away. Both my children were born in hospital and I was treated excellent.. I have had surgery to remove my gallbladder and I only waited 4 days. I live in Ottawa , Ontario.. and I think there is not a damn thing wrong in the grand scheme of things with our health care. Universal health care, is the envy of the world who do not have it.

Ok lets suppose I get some form of cancer.
Lets say its dangerous, but treatable. However the medication is exspensive.
Now lets say that Im between jobs.

Would I be treated?

if your premiums are paid, yes and even if not you can pay retroactively to the date you stopped paying.

if your premiums are paid, yes and even if not you can pay retroactively to the date you stopped paying.


What if my premiums werent payed, or I owed a lot of money on them?

youre goose might be cooked

Regrdless, you'd receive treatment. Even if you were 2 years behind on your premiums, which not all provinces charge, it would only amount to 1000 bucks or so, or less if you're low income. Much less than a hospital would charge you for a bed plus treatments etc. Could get really expensive. This is why medical coverage is mandatory, so you don't wind up in such a position.

Our National Health service works in the very same way

Pay your monthly national insurance (which is deducted from your wage) and you get free health care cover anywhere in the country. Of course prescription drugs still have to be paid for unless your very young or old. But all life saving stff like operations and chemo etc, is free.

Unfortunatly, as with all national health care systems it does suffer form being underfunded and over taxed. Bear in mind that Canada has a population of 30 million (?) while britain has over double that, with 65 million. Consequently, people end up waiting quite a while for tests, or non vital operations such as hip replacements. Howeever, I can say that, as far as experience goes, non of my family have ever had any trouble, and allways got the treatment when they needed it.

BTW yuo know that film John Q with Denzel washington. Is the Americal healthcare system reall like that. What if the cost of your insurance dosn't cover the cost of treatment. Or the treatment is long term? Do they just leave you to die?

I'm told over and over how you Canadians get free healthcare while we Americans resort to insurance.

Then tell me, is your healthcare more reliable than that of American healthcare? I'm curious. I assume that since the Canadian system resorts to taxes that it would be over lesser quality.

If I were to arrive in a Canadian hospitol, as a middle-class American, in a bloody mess from a car accident, can I trust that I would live to see my next birthday? Or wince and wish that I was back in America where my insurance would be raised a couple hundred bucks the next day?

First of all, asking a Canadian to tell you if their healthcare is more reliable than yours would assume they have experienced American healthcare. I would wager most haven't.

Secondly, any time you are in a car accident (particularly if you are a "bloody mess"), there is in fact a chance you won't make it. The chances of your survival are much less based on what country you are in over the circumstances of the crash, how severely you were injured, and how long it took you to get to the hospital.

So, your entire question is rather unanswerable. I'll simply state that while not perfect, Canadian healthcare gets the job done.

I'm told over and over how you Canadians get free healthcare while we Americans resort to insurance.

Then tell me, is your healthcare more reliable than that of American healthcare? I'm curious. I assume that since the Canadian system resorts to taxes that it would be over lesser quality.

If I were to arrive in a Canadian hospitol, as a middle-class American, in a bloody mess from a car accident, can I trust that I would live to see my next birthday? Or wince and wish that I was back in America where my insurance would be raised a couple hundred bucks the next day?

You'd be treated just as well as if you had a crash in the states in my province (Quebec). However, your insurance would have to pay for it. The free healthcare is for Canadians. Americans are not covered (as you're not paying taxes, premium and so on) but are treated nonetheless.

You'd be treated just as well as if you had a crash in the states in my province (Quebec). However, your insurance would have to pay for it. The free healthcare is for Canadians. Americans are not covered (as you're not paying taxes, premium and so on) but are treated nonetheless.

Thank you for finally pointing that out! I don't think too many Americans realize that they woud also have to make sure that their health insurance would cover them a) outside the U.S and b) in that particular hospital. If not, you'd probably be reimbursed for part of the bill, but unless the hospital had a financial arrangement with your insurance company's network of providers, you might only be covered for "usual, customary and reasonable charges," and get stuck to pay the balance out of pocket. Moral of the story is, before you travel out of the country, give your insurance company a ring.

Also recognize that if you were injured in that same car crash in America, it would actually be your car insurance that would be the primary payer, and your health insurance would pick up any balances. Have fun with that claim!

Here's a list of statistics (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004393.html) for infant mortality and life expectancy by country. Canada's infant mortality rate is 4.8 per 1000 live births, and Canadian average life expectancy is 80 years. The USA's infant mortality rate is 6.6 per 1000 live births, and the American average life expectancy is 77.4 years.

Obviously there will be factors other than just healthcare at work here, but it's interesting to consider why the USA, as the world's richest nation, lags behind the rest of the developed world.

I live in Britain & we also get free healthcare but the healthcare system is in a real mess.

Ok lets suppose I get some form of cancer.
Lets say its dangerous, but treatable. However the medication is exspensive.
Now lets say that Im between jobs.

Would I be treated?

Yes. Although how that would happen depends from province to province. In Ontario medications are not normally covered for the employed but people on social assistance receive a card they show to the pharmacy (pick whatever pharmacy you want - you are not forced to use a specific chain) and receive all their prescribed meds for free except for a small dispensing fee (I think $5.00 / perscription in Ontario). The working poor can also apply for subsidized medicines if the need arises.

Your doctors / hospital visits are always covered, and in Ontario there are no such things as premiums which you must pay seperately.

The only thing that may happen is that the pharmacies are instructed to disdpense equivalent generic drugs if they are available, and some of the newest drugs may not be covered in favour of proven therapies rather than those that are still somewhat unproven.

Canada certainly has a unique and valuable system of health care. However, the greatest challenge facing it is sustainability.

Right now most provinces are spending over 40 per cent of their total program spending solely on health care.

Given the population trends, Ontario will spend a full half of its spending (program) on health within six years. And this is before the bulk of the baby-boom require intensive and on-going long-term care as seniors.

Some provinces have tried to delay this by implementing additional “health care levies” – but this is really just a stall tactic. The real answers are going to be hard for a lot of Canadians to swallow.

But it is funny that while people from around the world look to Canada as a model of how to provide quality health care to all citizens, our system is slowly dying – crushed by the costs of the services we cherish.

Cheers.
W.

Free health care is a bit of a misnomer. We still have to pay monthly premiums which are adjusted for low income people. Some provinces don't require the premium payments, like Ontario ( I think ). Being in 'the plan' is mandatory too but th emoney comes out of general revenue from tax income. I pay 45 or so bucks a month deducted off my paycheque for Alberta health care which my employer will start paying in a few months.

As far as the quality goes... I'd say it is adequate althouh my health is such that I don't need doctors lol. :D I did need some emergency though minor surgery last year and it was taken care of the next morning. They gave me cookies adn orange juice when I woke up. I felt so special. :D
and we pay like 30+ dollars premium for our health insurance here, but its not full coverage, especially for expensive operations and hospital stays, it might cover a few thousand dollars, but you will be paying the rest of it out of pocket

and i dunno about the rest of the us but here we are the third biggest city in the state, ahead of the capital, which isnt suprising cuz that city is only a capital and commercial zone, the doctors and nurses that work at the local hospital are incompetent and screw up more than not. and ER waits take forever ANYWAY, if you arnt being bused in from a crash scene, chances are your ass will be waiting a while to get in the ER

My friend had been in the states and his jaw locked. They took him to the hospital, but would not treat him until he paid up. Now that is rediculous. The idea of having to pay for your government to provide health and safety, when you pay taxes in the first place is somewhat idiotic. This could be because I grew up with the notion of Free Healthcare all my life, or because I just think more people would be saved, should they not fret about going to the Hospital due to the cost.

In Ottawa, I find the waiting lists at the hospitals (especially CHEO) to be quite long (have never spent less than 2 hours waiting at CHEO), but the walk in clinics can usually see you within a half hour of arriving. If the line up's to long at one clinic, you can generally get to another clinic within 5 minutes of driving. There are 4 clinics that I know of within a 5 minute drive of my house, and they can handle most non-emergency medical problems quite adequately.

For emergency situations, Ottawa has been excellent. We home birthed our two youngest children, but with the youngest, the midwives detected a problem, and called an ambulance. The ambulance was to our house in less than 10 minutes, and less than 10 minutes later we were at the Queensway Carleton Hospital. We were straight into a birthing room, with a doctor right away, and our son was born a 1/2 hour later with no complications. All in all, I'd have to say that the health care, currently, is pretty good in Canada.

About the only difference I've seen between here and the US, is the slightly shorter waiting times in the US for non emergencies.

I don't see why everyone has such a huge problem with paying for health care... I mean, honestly how large a percentage of the poor do you think are honestly there through no fault of their own? VERY VERY VERY few, and most of those are ones that are mentally or physically handicapped, in which case they can probably find some charity organization or another that is willing to help them out (or they could just get a government job, either way)

All you people talking about paying your premiums in your provinces (my province doesn't have that, Ontario), but anyways regardless of that, I'm sure you realize the funding for your health care is very minimally from that premium, and mostly from your taxes. Now, roughly 30-50% of taxes is spent on health care (at least in Ontario, I think it's safe to assume it's in that range throughout the other provinces?), let's say you earn $50,000 a year, not an excessive sum, but not poor either (almost any hard-working man or woman without a physical/mental handicap should be able to find a job paying that much, if not that much, then close).

I don't recall the exact tax rate, but let's assume it was 25% (I think it's actually closer to 30, but whatever). This means each year, 12,500 to the government, and about 5500 of that spent on health care.

Let's say your average hospital visit costs you $500 or so (I don't mean like getting surgery or something, just going to the hospital to get stitches or whatever)

Do you really think, that throughout your life, you will go to the hospital upwards of 10 times a year? The answer for most people is, NO! I get sick and such more often than most people I know, and I go to the hospital... throughout my life averaged... maybe 0.6 or 0.7 times a year.

The only reason most people seem to think the idea of paying for health care is so absurd is because they don't realize that if there was no universal health care, you would be paying far less for it in taxes, and thus that money could go towards your health care. If you suck too badly at managing money to keep that extra money you're keeping from not paying taxes, too bad for you, I have no sympathy.

Basically,the healthcare is free,but crappy and painfully ineficent.Unless you have an injury needing imeddiate attetion,it can take months to get the healthcare you need.And even things that do need Imediate attetion is very bad.A friend of mine waited to get into ER with a bulletwound for six hours.

you should have sympathy.I am guessing you grew up in a middle class white family?with both parents and they had jobs?Well,let me tell you,its not that simple,my friend.Poverty is a cycal.So don't be like that.

Here a quick example.In a sprawling slum,there is a 19 year old girl.She has a boyfriend,and they have casual sex often.She finds out that she's pregnant.The guy bolts.She's left on her own to support a baby.She has no education and can only get minimum wage jobs,(sometimes perhaps get another boyfriend to support her,but often ends up being abusive.)So she is own her own with this kid,in a 600$ a mounth aptement,minimum wage.She has to work terrible and long hours.So this kid grows up with his mother almost never around.This kid meets other kids like himself.They have no money.one of there brothers is in a gang,say for example,the POI.The POI recruits them to traffic weed,gives them a cut.This is great for them,easy money and everyones doing it.Then the POI once again is trying to control more of the market,get in a fight with Jamaican North Settler Possee.The kids fight other kids,like themselves,with knives and chains and basseball bats.Get in trouble with the law occasionally.Repeat until child is an adult.Now he's a hardcore member of the POI,into big money soon,the leaders tell him.Now this young player goes and gets himself a young girl.The have casual sex often.She gets pregnant.He bolts.Or say he decides to stay.He's there with his pregnant girl,still pushin cuz he knows he got kids to feed.He's arrested for drugs,or assault or attempted murder.Either way,the cycle repeats itself.Theres many variations,but it all ends the same.

So middle class white children,thats how it works(no offence man).Thats why rich kids pretending they "ghetto" or "gangsta" piss me off to all ends.

So lets think before saying things out(no offence).What if that mother was in america,her kid gets stabbed?they treat him,sure,but she has no money to pay them.She has to work longer.so how about lets be nice too the poor from now on,maybe?Lets all just think,k?

And besides,we pay a healthcare tax.

For trauma surgery, like the car accident you mentioned, you would probably not be any worse off in a Canadian hospital than the average American one. Where you would be screaming for your US health insurance would be if you needed things like cancer treatments, hip replacements, knee surgery, etc. Things that you don’t die from immediately up here take forever with the wait times in all the provinces.

I don't see why everyone has such a huge problem with paying for health care... I mean, honestly how large a percentage of the poor do you think are honestly there through no fault of their own? VERY VERY VERY few, and most of those are ones that are mentally or physically handicapped, in which case they can probably find some charity organization or another that is willing to help them out (or they could just get a government job, either way)

All you people talking about paying your premiums in your provinces (my province doesn't have that, Ontario), but anyways regardless of that, I'm sure you realize the funding for your health care is very minimally from that premium, and mostly from your taxes. Now, roughly 30-50% of taxes is spent on health care (at least in Ontario, I think it's safe to assume it's in that range throughout the other provinces?), let's say you earn $50,000 a year, not an excessive sum, but not poor either (almost any hard-working man or woman without a physical/mental handicap should be able to find a job paying that much, if not that much, then close).

I don't recall the exact tax rate, but let's assume it was 25% (I think it's actually closer to 30, but whatever). This means each year, 12,500 to the government, and about 5500 of that spent on health care.

Let's say your average hospital visit costs you $500 or so (I don't mean like getting surgery or something, just going to the hospital to get stitches or whatever)

Do you really think, that throughout your life, you will go to the hospital upwards of 10 times a year? The answer for most people is, NO! I get sick and such more often than most people I know, and I go to the hospital... throughout my life averaged... maybe 0.6 or 0.7 times a year.

The only reason most people seem to think the idea of paying for health care is so absurd is because they don't realize that if there was no universal health care, you would be paying far less for it in taxes, and thus that money could go towards your health care. If you suck too badly at managing money to keep that extra money you're keeping from not paying taxes, too bad for you, I have no sympathy.

The idea isn't just to get free healthcare for ourselves. It's free health care for all Canadians. Now having read your message I'm guessing you don't have much, if any, sympathy for the poor. That's your prerogative. I personally consider adequate health care to be among basic civil rights, and would gladly pay more than I need to to cover health care for the less fortunate.

I'm not going to judge them for how they became poor. It doesn't really matter to me anyways, since they are still human beings. But once again that is just my opinion. I can see how someone wouldn't care for the current system.

Hell, we don't even need to go to the ghettos. One in three of us is going to get cancer. That's a great big truckload of money right there, if you want to have a good chance of surviving.

Paying for your healthcare (and everyone else's healthcare) through taxation makes sound economic sense. The healthier your nation is, the more productive it is. And I'd rather pay into a universal not-for-profit scheme than have chunks of my premiums skimmed off to fatten the shareholders of some insurance corporation who, should I get really ill, will do their damndest to deny me treatment and would prefer me to die as quickly as possible.

Exactly.Thats why we do it,and as crappy and ineficent as our system is,that is simply due to lack of funds,and I'd hate to lose our sytem.I personlally love it and cnsider it part of my national Identitity.

My friend had been in the states and his jaw locked. They took him to the hospital, but would not treat him until he paid up. Now that is rediculous. The idea of having to pay for your government to provide health and safety, when you pay taxes in the first place is somewhat idiotic. This could be because I grew up with the notion of Free Healthcare all my life, or because I just think more people would be saved, should they not fret about going to the Hospital due to the cost.
What type of hospitol did he go to? Usually we pay AFTER we are treated. What type of injury or illness did he have? Was he in Emergency Care?

My friend had been in the states and his jaw locked. They took him to the hospital, but would not treat him until he paid up. Now that is rediculous.

Um, hospitals are not allowed to turn you away for emergency care in the US because you have no means to pay for it. In effect we do have "free" health care for the poor. If you have crappy credit, and aren't worried about unpaid medical bills, you can go to the ER as much as you need to. I've had plenty of friends do it over and over.

As for Canadian Health Care, my friends in Quebec tell me up and down it is horrible. And it's not free, you still get taxed for it. So much better in the US to just have to worry about paying for yourself.

In France, we have both universal and private health care.
There are no waiting line in any of them. People from the UK come to France so as to avoid waiting lines in the UK.
Every french citizen has a card, called 'carte vitale'. This card is used in hospitals or at the doctor, dentist, or anything related to health to pay for the service (the state actually pays).
This card is useful to track costs as well as to record personnal health data.
If you don't have the card, the CMU pays anyway (if you are a foreigner for instance), but it's longer for the doctor to get his money because there is a list of checks done (so as to prevent abuses).

Um, hospitals are not allowed to turn you away for emergency care in the US because you have no means to pay for it. In effect we do have "free" health care for the poor. If you have crappy credit, and aren't worried about unpaid medical bills, you can go to the ER as much as you need to. I've had plenty of friends do it over and over.The problem is that the doctor works for free then.

Um, hospitals are not allowed to turn you away for emergency care in the US because you have no means to pay for it. In effect we do have "free" health care for the poor. If you have crappy credit, and aren't worried about unpaid medical bills, you can go to the ER as much as you need to. I've had plenty of friends do it over and over.

As for Canadian Health Care, my friends in Quebec tell me up and down it is horrible. And it's not free, you still get taxed for it. So much better in the US to just have to worry about paying for yourself.

Of course it's not free, Grebonia. When insurance companies pay hospitals for services rendered on a claim, they don't actually pay on a line item basis. They send massive sum payments, part of which are monies allocated into an 'indigent pool' which helps hospitals cover expenses for those people who have no insurance and cannot afford to pay. So guess what, we're already paying for these people through higher healthcare costs, higher insurance rates, we're just doing it in an very costly way.

I think some people confuse Canadian health care with 'free' health care. Canadians pay for our health care system with increased taxes. Often times these taxes are squandered on things other than health care. For example, the new 'health premium' introduced by our wonderful Premier Dalton McGuinty doesn't actually pay for health care! A lot of the money is going towards things like sewer improvements and stuff (ie administrative costs).

Now I don't have anything against improving our sewer systems but they told us the increased taxes would be going to pay for our health care. A blatant lie. The only difference then between a company providing health care and the government is that at least we can change our government every 4-5 years.

And to all of you who think Canadian health care is so wonderful, I'll give a classic example of how wonderful things are where I live.

Half my city does not have access to a family doctor (100 000 people) and rely on emergency rooms to provide front line health care.

We are chronically understaffed and underfunded at all levels of health care.

Doctors continue to leave our city due to stress related problems. (less doctors = higher workload = higher stress)

A teacher of mine went to a doctor for a heart problem and was told that it could be fatal within 3 months in untreated, however, they wouldn't know for sure until they performed a test (and hence wouldn't treat him). They scheduled the test for as soon as possible, which was 6 months down the road. (ouch eh?)

In conclusion, the problem with Canadian health care isn't that our system stinks.. its simply the fact that we do not have enough doctors.

Um, hospitals are not allowed to turn you away for emergency care in the US because you have no means to pay for it. In effect we do have "free" health care for the poor. If you have crappy credit, and aren't worried about unpaid medical bills, you can go to the ER as much as you need to. I've had plenty of friends do it over and over.

As for Canadian Health Care, my friends in Quebec tell me up and down it is horrible. And it's not free, you still get taxed for it. So much better in the US to just have to worry about paying for yourself.
Soooo if you are this "poor person" then what happens when they get well and get a job? They are in debt for the rest of their lives?

How quickly do these "poor" people receive treatment?

I understand that the average US healthcare "insurance" plan costs about $10 thousand US dollars, which is more than the average person would pay here through taxes, and the added benefit is that the health care here would cover ANY kind of surgery, cancer, most tests, annual checkups, prolonged stay in the hospital, and there are no limits to number of times anyone can use the system.

I will take the Canadian health care system, thank you very much.

A teacher of mine went to a doctor for a heart problem and was told that it could be fatal within 3 months in untreated, however, they wouldn't know for sure until they performed a test (and hence wouldn't treat him). They scheduled the test for as soon as possible, which was 6 months down the road. (ouch eh?)Somehow I doubt this story?

In conclusion, the problem with Canadian health care isn't that our system stinks.. its simply the fact that we do not have enough doctors.
I have never seen a shortage in the GTA, so you might want to change that statement to reflect that there is not enough doctors in your area, and not try to make like it is a reflection on the entire Canadian system?

While were on the topic of healthcare and what not, i was wondering sence no explenation was ever givin, why are Canadian Persciption drugs so "Unsafe"? I always hear about american politics going on about not recamending people going to Canada to get there drugs because they could be potentially harmful, does anyone know why they are? if they are at all?

I don't see why everyone has such a huge problem with paying for health care... I mean, honestly how large a percentage of the poor do you think are honestly there through no fault of their own? VERY VERY VERY few, and most of those are ones that are mentally or physically handicapped, in which case they can probably find some charity organization or another that is willing to help them out (or they could just get a government job, either way)

Do I detect ice running through your vains?

While were on the topic of healthcare and what not, i was wondering sence no explenation was ever givin, why are Canadian Persciption drugs so "Unsafe"? I always hear about american politics going on about not recamending people going to Canada to get there drugs because they could be potentially harmful, does anyone know why they are? if they are at all?

It's political, most Canadian drugs are actually made in the USA... it's just that they are cheaper here. We have the same drugs as the Americans. It's about profit and special interest in the USA.

As a Canadian i feel it my duty to state that very recently an in depth study was done (independantly) to answer just this exact question. The conclusion that it came to was that healthcare in Canada was on par with the US. The reasons were that even for the fact that Canada and the US both have areas of medicine where one or the other country is stronger or weaker. Everything was compared, wait times, patient recovery rates after surgery, satisfaction, availability and of course cost.

If i can find anything concrete about this i will post a link here.

The most important thing to me, and that which the study was fairly conclusive in was the equality of care in Canada, where a poor person has every right to be treated by the same standards as the rich. Sadly this seems to be the major drawback in the US, it almost seems as if the poor are fed to either the doctors who are learning and thus making more mistakes or the butchers who cant make it and so are stuck in public hospitals. I guess doctors should have the right to choose whether or not they will perform privatized health care, but it is decidedly unfair.

It's political, most Canadian drugs are actually made in the USA... it's just that they are cheaper here. We have the same drugs as the Americans. It's about profit and special interest in the USA.

thank you for saving my breath for me.

you must have seen the same news program that I had.
apparently this goes right back to the FDA or something, and it is being controlled by certain state pharmacy boards who obviously dont want to see their overpriced drugs collecting dust. The sad thing is, when there is a surplus of the exact same drugs that are in defecit in the US, they still try and control it. Not exactly NAFTA (shouldnt that have an influence in this?) working to our advantage, but then, it never has and it never will work for canadians.

well i cant seem to find that article, if i remember, ill look again tomorrow...

heres an interesting editorial in the mean time...

"The Symposium articles on single-payer health insurance [March 27] were interesting, but unfortunately David C. MacDonald has contributed to the misinformation surrounding Canada's health-care system. MacDonald should spend some time learning about how Canada's system really works before he further confuses American readers. His use of easily refutable data from the ultraconservative, free-market-at-all-costs Fraser Institute is nave and insults the intelligence of your readers.

It certainly is true that both Alberta and British Columbia still use premiums as part of their financing mechanisms. However, under both the Canada Health Act and provincial health-care legislation, insured legal residents of either province are entitled to medically necessary care even if they don't pay their premiums. Nonpayment cannot be used as a reason to deny access to medically necessary services. Unpaid premiums become a collections issue, not a health-care issue. Patients who register with their provincial plan but who fail to pay their premiums still receive health care, and their physicians still are paid by the provincial insurance plan for delivering that patient care.

In Canada, we deliver health care based on need, not as in the United States where health care is rationed based on ability to pay. Angus Reid Survey data from January 2000 show that even with the recent fiscal restraint in Canada's health-care system, more than 70 percent of Canadians are confident that they will get the health-care services they need. Of those Canadians who were admitted to the hospital, 81 percent were satisfied with their care. The only way the United States ever will come even close to those numbers is with a single-payer system that provides comprehensive, equitable care for everyone.

Karen S. Palmer

Logan, Utah

---------------------

i think that sort of validates my main concern with US health care.

i dont think anyone was listening to what i said


well, let me rephrase, INSURED americans pay 30+ a month to an INSURANCE COMPANY to bargain with hospitals for you to pay the price you should be paying isntead of the overhyped price you would have to pay, but you still pay either a large copay or if the bill is large enough you pay the MAJORITY of the bill.

and from what im reading, if you pay that amount to the government, you get ESSENTIALLY free health care.


guess what americans, YOUR PAYING THE SAME AMOUNT OF MONEY OR MORE PER MONTH TO A MIDDLE MAN SO YOUR ASS CAN STILL PAY MONEY TO THE HOSPITALS

in BC and in Alberta, you have to pay premiums to the tune of around 300 a year (most employers pick this up for you as a benefit though), i think the rest of canada pays nothing at all, but i could be wrong about ontario and quebec, they have a different system all together.

BC is probably the best I have seen notwithstanding those two eastern provinces, and like the ed. stated, even if you dont pay your premiums, you wont get shafted with the entire bill (in most cases you just have to pay a relativley small amount of back premiums) or be denied care.

it really does work well, better than most are willing to admit, and is the envy of a lot of other countries, but there are drawbacks, it opens the system to abuse by hypochondriacs and the like - who take up valuable time with questionable illnesses. This wouldnt happen in the states, but then a lot of people just dont go because of the cost and end up worse off for it so you can judge that how you like.

Maybe these links will help?

http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20040503-084924-5336r.htm

although Australia has the best rates of breast cancer screening, it ranks the worst for five-year survival of childhood leukemia. Canada has the best ranking for five-year survival of kidney and liver transplant patients, but is the worst for 30-day heart attack survival.

England is tops in having the lowest incidence of suicide but also lowest in five-year survival rates for breast cancer. New Zealand's five-year colorectal scan rate is the highest among the five countries, but so is its suicide rate -- especially for young people.

The United States, which spends almost twice as much as the other countries on healthcare each year, has the best five-year breast cancer survival rates, but the worst kidney transplant survival rate over the same period.

"It's clear that there isn't any country that has emerged as having the best care," said Dr. John Millar, of British Columbia's Provincial Health Services Authority. He said the study also suggests the need for countries to invest more in information systems to monitor quality indicators.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3908645/

WASHINGTON - Health care spending in the United States reached $1.6 trillion in 2002, an annual increase of 9.3 percent fueled by rising hospital spending and prescription drugs costs, the federal government reported Thursday.

The increase outstripped growth in the economy for the fourth consecutive year, according to the federal Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services.


http://consumeraffairs.com/news03/health_costs.html

August 21, 2003

The overhead cost of operating the United States health-care system is more than three times that of running Canada's on a per capita basis, and the gap is getting bigger, according to a study published today in the New England Journal of Medicine.

Savings gleaned from a national health insurance system like Canada's would be enough to provide medical insurance for the 41 million Americans who now lack coverage, the researchers said.

The study puts the administrative cost of the U.S. system at $294 billion per year, compared to about $9.4 billion in Canada. That translates to a per-person cost of $1,059 in the U.S. and $307 in Canada. A similar study, conducted in 1991, put per-capita costs in the U.S. at $450 and Canadian costs at one-third of that.

http://www.allhealth.org/sourcebook2002/ch8_8.html

Health spending per capita in the U.S. was over $4,600 in 2000, more than twice the average of about $2,000 for the other industrial nations belonging to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD). Health spending in the U.S. was 13 percent of gross domestic product, compared with Switzerland (10.7%), Germany (10.6%), Canada (9.1%), Japan (7.8%), and the United Kingdom (7.3%). Although many might equate high expenditures with excellent medical treatment, the health of the average American, as measured by life expectancy and infant mortality, is below the average of other major industrialized nations. This is due to a variety of factors, including diet, physical activity levels, births to teenager mothers and deaths from violence.

Universal health care kicks ass! I've never waited to see a doctor in a hospital if I needed to be seen right away. Both my children were born in hospital and I was treated excellent.. I have had surgery to remove my gallbladder and I only waited 4 days. I live in Ottawa , Ontario.. and I think there is not a damn thing wrong in the grand scheme of things with our health care. Universal health care, is the envy of the world who do not have it.
Just to let you know, I had a brain tumor removed. I only had to wait for about four days as well. On top of that, an MR scanner was in the OR. Healthcare in America is not as bad as Canadians like to believe. I'm sure it's not bad up there, but then again, I can't speak from personal experience. I've never broken a leg or anything in Canada.

...I don't recall the exact tax rate, but let's assume it was 25% (I think it's actually closer to 30, but whatever). This means each year, 12,500 to the government, and about 5500 of that spent on health care.

Let's say your average hospital visit costs you $500 or so (I don't mean like getting surgery or something, just going to the hospital to get stitches or whatever)

Do you really think, that throughout your life, you will go to the hospital upwards of 10 times a year? The answer for most people is, NO! I get sick and such more often than most people I know, and I go to the hospital... throughout my life averaged... maybe 0.6 or 0.7 times a year.It is all good...But there is other factors you need to consider...like the average revenue is not 50000/household....and if it was....Health care covers The children too...and they dont make 50000...

Other factor is the Health INSURANCE...

I pay $1000/year in Property and Personal Insurances....I never use them...but its nice to know my ass is covered :cool:

CanuckHeaven... well believe it or not it is true.

Also, my parents needed to get a specialist once for a test to help the doctors treat my mother's disease. They booked one for as soon as possible.

I'll never forget her words....

My mom: "they've book it for November 21st (it was in September then)."

My dad: "really so soon?"

My mom: "November of next year..."

CanuckHeaven I don't know where you live but last time I checked all of Southwestern Ontario was declared a doctor shortage area (except for London, because all the profs in the med school there are also considered doctors) so maybe my problem is a local problem. But maybe the problems aren't so bad in places like, Alberta, Ottawa and Toronto...

CanuckHeaven... well believe it or not it is true.

Also, my parents needed to get a specialist once for a test to help the doctors treat my mother's disease. They booked one for as soon as possible.

I'll never forget her words....

My mom: "they've book it for November 21st (it was in September then)."

My dad: "really so soon?"

My mom: "November of next year..."

CanuckHeaven I don't know where you live but last time I checked all of Southwestern Ontario was declared a doctor shortage area (except for London, because all the profs in the med school there are also considered doctors) so maybe my problem is a local problem. But maybe the problems aren't so bad in places like, Alberta, Ottawa and Toronto...
How many Canadian educated Medicine Proffessionals Move to the States?
...Nurses and Doctors...

CanuckHeaven... well believe it or not it is true.

Also, my parents needed to get a specialist once for a test to help the doctors treat my mother's disease. They booked one for as soon as possible.

I'll never forget her words....

My mom: "they've book it for November 21st (it was in September then)."

My dad: "really so soon?"

My mom: "November of next year..."

CanuckHeaven I don't know where you live but last time I checked all of Southwestern Ontario was declared a doctor shortage area (except for London, because all the profs in the med school there are also considered doctors) so maybe my problem is a local problem. But maybe the problems aren't so bad in places like, Alberta, Ottawa and Toronto...
Well if the following story that you posted was true, it would have been front page news:

A teacher of mine went to a doctor for a heart problem and was told that it could be fatal within 3 months in untreated, however, they wouldn't know for sure until they performed a test (and hence wouldn't treat him). They scheduled the test for as soon as possible, which was 6 months down the road. (ouch eh?)

There is no way this story would avoid the press. Urgent care is available if it is life threatening, even if the person has to be transported, and on rare occaisions, treatment and or testing are authorized for nearby facilities in the US.

Perhaps the person telling you this, bent the truth a little bit? More likely they bent the truth a lot?