NationStates Jolt Archive

I mean I dispise them. Now don't get me wrong I don't have a problem with religion per se, but why do B-A's feel the need to try to convert you every chance they get?
I just finished chatting with a friend on Messenger, and she's suddenly become one. So instead of humourous stories and jokes we usually swap, she's done nothing but talk about God this and Jesus that.
I mean here's a sample of her msgs:
"so good for him but when he dies and realises that he is in hell for his atheism it will be too late then, he can't hail mary himself out of hell"
"God created us in his own image, to have an abundant life, he didn't make us robots to automatically love and obey Him...we CHOSE to disobey God and go our own willful way..some of us (i.e: yourself) still make this choice today. We all fall short of the glory of God and have all sinned and people try to bridge this gap in many way"
And so on ad nauseum.
I vehemently dislike this immediate assumption these B-As have that if you don't worship their God, you're going to Hell. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that Jesus was meant to be a forgiving sort. So surely if you live a good clean life (nice to small animals etc etc) you'd still have a chance (assuming Heaven exists, which it doesn't). Because by their logic all those really decent honest good ppl in remote areas of the world who have never heard of JC wre going to Hell. That's a pretty mean petty thing to do IMHO.
The problem here is that it winds me up. I dislike people trying to 'save' me and so I start winding them up.
I just mentioned that maybe Islam is the one true path, so perhaps she'll be going to Hell with the rest of us unbelievers.

Whoops, couldn't hold back anymore. Cause I'm bored, I've gotten into an argument that Islam is better. Personally I'm an Athiest, but I studied most of the major religions at Uni.

sorry to hear about your friend, let hope that she is not lost forever, maybe she'lll come back around

The idea isn't that you be a good person. You can be a thief, murderer, rapist, pedophile your entire life, and then, at the end, say that you're sorry and that you accept Jesus as your savior, and you're good to go. However, you can lead a good life, always putting other people's needs before your own, never doing anyone any wrong, but if you don't do that last part, you're fucked. I feel your pain man. That's why Jesus invented the ignore function.

Just a side question: in Australia we call them "born-again Christians" or sometimes "reborn Christians" - what term do they use in the USA? Is it the same as "fundamentalist Christians"?

I was thinking of several arguments to put here, then realized that all of them are preachy, which you obviously hate, so I'll just say this: I'm sorry you've come to feel that way, my attituted is not to go all out unless I know someone's interested, otherwise, i like to witness by example. let people come to their own realizations, when and if they feel like it. don't hate us all, that'll just make most try harder, driving you more insane. But really whatever choice you make, good for you.

oh and as for "B-A"s trying to convert you, what religion doesn't, if the religion said, "OK, worship the other gods we don't believe in" how long would it last, keep an eye out for other religioius solicitation too.

Just a side question: in Australia we call them "born-again Christians" or sometimes "reborn Christians" - what term do they use in the USA? Is it the same as "fundamentalist Christians"?

Born-Again. Or Fundamentalists. I think GWB is one. I tend to hate anyone who evangelises [sic] others.

I also really hate it when your friends randomly convert, it takes the fun out of talking to them. If she doesn't stop bugging you about why you should become Christian then remind her that peer pressure is not considered good in the Bible (even though so many other things are - slavery, discrimination, hitting your kids, getting your spouse/wife/girlfriend to drunk muddy water to find out whether or not she's cheating, burning people alive for planting two types of crops in the same farm etc).

Also remind her that Christian or not, human beings have similar responses - and the more she tries to tell you how great this thing is, the less you will like it.

I tend to hate anyone who evangelises [sic] others.

Here's A Nice Anagram

Evangelist = Evil's Agent

They proselytize for two reasons:
1) The religion itself mandates such activity.
2) Being "born again" is a deeply moving spiritual experience. They may be assumptive in trying to force an extension of this experience to others, but in reality they're just trying to share the joy they felt with the rest of the world.

Of course, this doesn't really include those who are "born again" only due to peer pressure...

Religon in general makes me gag a little

do what we say and you will learn what we cant tell you because we dont know...

go religon

Religon in general makes me gag a little

do what we say and you will learn what we cant tell you because we dont know...

go religon


It's not religon that I have a problem, but like you said, people that have used and twisted it to thier own ends. Or how if you believe something different then you are evil

Just a side question: in Australia we call them "born-again Christians" or sometimes "reborn Christians" - what term do they use in the USA? Is it the same as "fundamentalist Christians"?
I'm aussie too, and we call em "bible bashers" round where I'm from (brisbane). But the ones we have are literally relentless, except they also try to sell you a whole bunch of crap while they're at it. And they don't go away.

In Canada it either 'bible pusher' or 'born again christian'

I hear ya.

It's worst when your a dead-again diest :p. I'm actually afraid to tell some friends about it, because I KNOW things will get very awkward. Very fast. Emphasis on the "very's"

I can't speak for anyone else but... when I became a Christian it was a wonderfully profound spiritual experience. My life did a 180 degree turn around. I became aware of a reason for my existence, a God and Savior that loved me, and it was so wonderful that I thought I'd do others a tremendous favor by telling them all about it.

And, sure enough, a lot of people couldn't care less. I found this bizarre, because becoming a born again Christian was such a great experience for me that I couldn't imagine anyone who would not want to experience the same joy and purpose for living that I had.

You need to understand that when any Christian tries to tell you about his or her beliefs, they're doing it out of a very real and very sincere concern for you. They get no personal benefit out of wasting their time telling you all about how you can be saved. It's probably one of the most selfless things a person can do, to share their joy with someone else in the hope that someone else can also experience that same joy.

Kw.II

I can't speak for anyone else but... when I became a Christian it was a wonderfully profound spiritual experience. My life did a 180 degree turn around. I became aware of a reason for my existence, a God and Savior that loved me, and it was so wonderful that I thought I'd do others a tremendous favor by telling them all about it.

And, sure enough, a lot of people couldn't care less. I found this bizarre, because becoming a born again Christian was such a great experience for me that I couldn't imagine anyone who would not want to experience the same joy and purpose for living that I had.

You need to understand that when any Christian tries to tell you about his or her beliefs, they're doing it out of a very real and very sincere concern for you. They get no personal benefit out of wasting their time telling you all about how you can be saved. It's probably one of the most selfless things a person can do, to share their joy with someone else in the hope that someone else can also experience that same joy.

Kw.II


The ironic thing is, I went through the same thing when I STOPPED being a christian. When I told myself vocally that I was no longer going to follow a religion I did not believe in, it was a tremendous spiritual experience for me.

That's what bugs me a bit about born-againers who preach. I KNOW plenty about christianity-probebly more then THEY do-and I'm not going back.

Hey, another Queenslander! I'm not alone on the boards! Yay!

For the record, other names for Born Agains in Australia include "Bible Bashers", "God Botherers" (on the basis that they're so annoying even The Big Guy Himself must get sick of them), and let's not forget "Get away from me, you religious nut!"

Seriously though, Born Again Christians do annoy me... as you say, everything they talk about is God this and Jesus that. The many benefits of Christianity aside, they are annoying in the extreme.

Not everyone is interested in God. And most Christians don't go acting like Ned Flanders (at least not here in Australia).

As someone said earlier, the more they harp on about it, the less anyone wants to listen.

There is only one thing worse than a Born Again Christian... the Born Again Virgin (ie the skanky slut who suddenly decides to stop putting out and lectures everyone about the evils of pre-marital sex).

I guess all you can do is ignore the preaching and tell your friend you'll see her when she comes back to Earth, or at least respects your right to not beleive in God, or follow any particular religion...

Seriously though, Born Again Christians do annoy me... as you say, everything they talk about is God this and Jesus that.

That's because the experience genuinely leads you to see the entire universe as inextricably inseparable from the Divine. Everything IS about God at that point. It induces a sense of awe -as if you saw the moon crash into the ocean. How long would you be able to go without talking about something as astounding as that?

That's because the experience genuinely leads you to see the entire universe as inextricably inseparable from the Divine. Everything IS about God at that point. It induces a sense of awe -as if you saw the moon crash into the ocean. How long would you be able to go without talking about something as astounding as that?

Actually, no matter what it was that actually happened, a dry comment usually ends it.

"God is so awesome! I mean, Jesus DIED for your sins!"
"And yet...SOMEhow...in SOMEway...the world continues to turn"

I mean I dispise them. Now don't get me wrong I don't have a problem with religion per se, but why do B-A's feel the need to try to convert you every chance they get?
I just finished chatting with a friend on Messenger, and she's suddenly become one. So instead of humourous stories and jokes we usually swap, she's done nothing but talk about God this and Jesus that.
I mean here's a sample of her msgs:
"so good for him but when he dies and realises that he is in hell for his atheism it will be too late then, he can't hail mary himself out of hell"
"God created us in his own image, to have an abundant life, he didn't make us robots to automatically love and obey Him...we CHOSE to disobey God and go our own willful way..some of us (i.e: yourself) still make this choice today. We all fall short of the glory of God and have all sinned and people try to bridge this gap in many way"
And so on ad nauseum.
I vehemently dislike this immediate assumption these B-As have that if you don't worship their God, you're going to Hell. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that Jesus was meant to be a forgiving sort. So surely if you live a good clean life (nice to small animals etc etc) you'd still have a chance (assuming Heaven exists, which it doesn't). Because by their logic all those really decent honest good ppl in remote areas of the world who have never heard of JC wre going to Hell. That's a pretty mean petty thing to do IMHO.
The problem here is that it winds me up. I dislike people trying to 'save' me and so I start winding them up.
I just mentioned that maybe Islam is the one true path, so perhaps she'll be going to Hell with the rest of us unbelievers.

There's a secret. This secret is, that for every time they preach at unbelievers, they get 10 points. And for everyone they convert, they get 150 points. Winning that game, and possibly going on to win the Quidditc---I mean...ummmm....they get to drink a whole bottle of holy wine.

Actually, no matter what it was that actually happened, a dry comment usually ends it.

"God is so awesome! I mean, Jesus DIED for your sins!"
"And yet...SOMEhow...in SOMEway...the world continues to turn"

I like the one "I'm constantly amazed at how AWESOME God is!" which to me...shows they have no real faith in their own god. Or the one "I feel that God really wants me to go on student exchange, but I'm holding back, i don't know why" which just means they want to do something, but theyarn't alowed to.

Just a side question: in Australia we call them "born-again Christians" or sometimes "reborn Christians" - what term do they use in the USA? Is it the same as "fundamentalist Christians"?

Here in America's Bible Belt (Indiana), we also call 'em "Bible Thumpers" or "the people who have surrounded my house with torches and pitchforks and who are screaming for my head on a pike."

If you are being annoyed by a Christian the solution is simple.

Pretend you have converted to Devil-Worship and ritualistically slaughter their cat/dog/hamster. Then, they'll never talk to you again, and yiu can get back to being atheist in peace.

I find they invariably become angry with me because I don't care that Jesus died for my sins. Eventually, all my conversations turn into:

"I don't really care if Jesus died for my sins; I'm not going to worship him."
"How can you possibly not worship someone who died for your sins? He made this incredible sacrifice, JUST FOR YOU, and you do nothing for him?"

And then it degenerates into how I'm so selfish and how I'm going to hell.

Somehow I doubt Jesus died just so I could fuck my girlfriend.

The only time I have a problem with religion is when it influences legislation, like when conservatives try to turn this nation into a backwards theocracy.

(For example, I can't buy alcohol on sunday! B.S! ;) )

As for Jesus' "sacrifice", he came back 3 days later. That'd be like me giving you 500 bucks, taking it back 3 days later, then expecting you to kiss my feet for the rest of your life, and maybe, just maybe, you just might get a cookie reward when it's all said and done. And besides dying, what else has he done? He doesn't seem to be doing much lately. Hell, anybody can die, and that doesn't benefit me, so I see no reason to feel obliged. 2 hands working do more than 1000 clasped in prayer.

I'm praying for you, Demented Hamsters. Jesus loves you.

FFS, Jesus was just some guy who spoke cleverly. The rest is almost certainly Hyperbole.

If in the time it takes to get home frm the fishing lake, the fish that got away can grow from |----| this big to |----------------------------------| this big, how much could stories of Jesus' life grow in the THIRTY YEARS between his death, and the first gospel?

When you use this argument against Christians they generally and mumble and move away, or try to ignore it. Which to me, proves my point.

i have a friend who because of his religion is a vegetarian
for some reason i just cant help insulting him everytime i eat my lunch
its particularly good watching him eat "vegetable paddies" and vegetarian subways

my advice- keep winding her up, she may not like you but its fun to watch

Unless they wake me early in the morning on weekends i have no problem with god-pushers. I just tell them that my life on earth is more important o me than a suspected afterlife. After that it detiorates pretty quickly, because all they can show me about heaven and hell is belief. And belief is hard to sell, while materialistic gratification is obvious. If they push to hard, like yelling "But you have to (see/believe/be thankfull...), i show them the door.

Nice anecdote, a girl wrote to the agnostic organization i am in and asked why we try to live good lifes and be nice to people when we dont believe in heaven or God. Answer: Because we want earth to be a pleasant stay for everybody in the live we have for sure.

Just a side question: in Australia we call them "born-again Christians" or sometimes "reborn Christians" - what term do they use in the USA? Is it the same as "fundamentalist Christians"?
we have many names for them;

religious right wingers
fundies
Born agains
bibble thumpers
Ned Flanders
klansmen
salvation salesmen
dumb asses
child molesters (not just catholics)

I can't speak for anyone else but... when I became a Christian it was a wonderfully profound spiritual experience. My life did a 180 degree turn around. I became aware of a reason for my existence, a God and Savior that loved me, and it was so wonderful that I thought I'd do others a tremendous favor by telling them all about it.

And, sure enough, a lot of people couldn't care less. I found this bizarre, because becoming a born again Christian was such a great experience for me that I couldn't imagine anyone who would not want to experience the same joy and purpose for living that I had.

You need to understand that when any Christian tries to tell you about his or her beliefs, they're doing it out of a very real and very sincere concern for you. They get no personal benefit out of wasting their time telling you all about how you can be saved. It's probably one of the most selfless things a person can do, to share their joy with someone else in the hope that someone else can also experience that same joy.

Kw.II

SO just because you like it that means everyone will?? How arrogent, not everyone likes the same things!

Nice anecdote, a girl wrote to the agnostic organization i am in and asked why we try to live good lifes and be nice to people when we dont believe in heaven or God. Answer: Because we want earth to be a pleasant stay for everybody in the live we have for sure.

Yes, as if we're inclined to act like savage beasts unless some invisible sky ghost beams down happy thoughts into our heads... :rolleyes:

Heh. I have an interesting perspective on this.

I was raised on the idea that I could belive anything I wanted. at 17 I became a lutheran, but by 19 I had realised that every supposed 'Christian' in my church, youth group and community was a hypocrite, and I didn't want to be realated to that.

I am a very spiritual person, and a lot of my values come from Christs teachings, but I'm not a Christian. I don't even know what I really am, but I would say I believe in the old Indian, (or more specifically Inuit), beliefs the most. (Ie; everything has a 'spirit', you can control personal energies, etc.)

Oh yeah, more on-topic: I understand what its like to be 'born-again', my girlfriend is and I was. Just give it a month or two until the excitement wears off and she becomes teh same person she always was.

Ah, the question of Philosophical moral obligation and moral relativism.

Discuss.

Hey, another Queenslander! I'm not alone on the boards! Yay!
There is only one thing worse than a Born Again Christian... the Born Again Virgin (ie the skanky slut who suddenly decides to stop putting out and lectures everyone about the evils of pre-marital sex).

I guess all you can do is ignore the preaching and tell your friend you'll see her when she comes back to Earth, or at least respects your right to not beleive in God, or follow any particular religion...

i was gonna say that its a pyhsical imposibillaty no matter what britney spears says or carmen electra does.If you guys want take the best out of each religeon and meld them into one super religeon kind of like the indian sikhs there prophet dude did that(then he got killed so they became millitaristic)or something like that.In the end you could go to heaven or you could go to hell or val halla or be reborn as a tapeworm you might be admitted to heaven but say nah id rather be in pergatory for a millenia in the end its your choice and there only trying to help even if its not wanted or required.I knew someone who every time the mormons came round theyd jump over the back fence

Ah, the question of Philosophical moral obligation and moral relativism.

Discuss.

I can't-all such thoughts are being devoted to a paper on Plato and Socrates debunking the Sophists and the idiology of advanced hedonism at the moment :p


God, I love my ethics class xD

Look at it from the Born Again's perspective.

They Know (well, beleive - but they think they know) that those who don't follow Jesus WILL burn in hell for all eternity.

If you beleived this, wouldn't you fight to save your friends and family?

Look at it from the Born Again's perspective.

They Know (well, beleive - but they think they know) that those who don't follow Jesus WILL burn in hell for all eternity.

If you beleived this, wouldn't you fight to save your friends and family?

That was just one more reason for me to leave my religion-I refused to believe that my friends, loved ones, and good people all over the world would be damned to hell.

That was just one more reason for me to leave my religion-I refused to believe that my friends, loved ones, and good people all over the world would be damned to hell.

Sometimes I think people get Jesus all wrong.

In the sermon on the mount Jesus was revealed as the true son of god. then Peter said "I shall build three tents", and Jesus said something to the effect of "no, you won't".

i.e. Jesus preached that organised religeon was a bad thing.

That was just one more reason for me to leave my religion-I refused to believe that my friends, loved ones, and good people all over the world would be damned to hell.

"Hello, I'm God. I created Hell. But don't worry, for I killed my son so you don't have to burn in it (don't ask me to explain the logic in that, because I don't really know myself). Of course, you'll have to forgo your independant, critical, and rational thinking and follow forth in blind faith."

I can't-all such thoughts are being devoted to a paper on Plato and Socrates debunking the Sophists and the idiology of advanced hedonism at the moment :p


God, I love my ethics class xD

hey arent the sophists the ones whos best answer for a happy life is to end it straight away because if you have hopes and dreams and they come crashing down then you feel bad and know one wants to feel bad so if you cap yourself then you cant feel bad

I like these arguments, its why I took R.E. at high school... You make a small comment at the begginning of class, then sit back and sleep through the rest of the lesson while people argue. And then, you can pass the test easily.

Guess what? The non-Christians almost always win the arguments.

I saw this on the ABC a few days ago. This thread reminded me of it.

Transcript:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2003/godonbraintrans.shtml

I'm just going to throw my tuppence worth in:

If God is infinitely merciful then surely whatever you have done you will be forgiven for it and admitted to heaven, should that be our fate when we shuffle off the mortal coil.

Guess what? The non-Christians almost always win the arguments.

Well, it's a bit hard to argue in favor of something that requires self-deceit and willful ignorance to accept. ;)

hey arent the sophists the ones whos best answer for a happy life is to end it straight away because if you have hopes and dreams and they come crashing down then you feel bad and know one wants to feel bad so if you cap yourself then you cant feel bad

Not neccisarily. Thrasymachus, a rather celebrated Sophist, believed that injustice in political and economic affairs would end with a greater multitude of advantages to justice, and in fact that even the just would do it if they could get away with it. In the end, Sophists believed that they could make the wrong look right. That was the driving force behind advanced hedonism-that is, that pleasure would be inherently good, and pain inherently bad.

Socrates effectivly debunked it while debating with Callicles, as shown in the dialogue Gorgias as written by Plato. By using the reasoning that a) good and evil cannot co-exist at the same time, and b) both pleasure and pain may exist in a person at once, he proved that good was not pleasure, and evil not pain. He goes on to explain his belief in the soul, but the paper doesn't have to cover that ;)

Sometimes I think people get Jesus all wrong.

In the sermon on the mount Jesus was revealed as the true son of god. then Peter said "I shall build three tents", and Jesus said something to the effect of "no, you won't".

i.e. Jesus preached that organised religeon was a bad thing.
Hey thats in a movie and the book of jesus is hidden in the catacombes under St peters basilica in rome right the catholic church doesnt wont it getting out.But one of the real problems with christianity is it is so muddled i mean theres catholics,luterians,new age snake worshipers in arizona, presbyterians,anglicans,church of england,muddletonian(funny stuff)mormons,amish,greek orthodox ethopian-catholic hybrid the other puritant denominations middle east as well and all came about with small scisims in the church and they have slowly taken differnt directions with there aproach to things and yet they all get bundled into the same catergory

Hey thats in a movie and the book of jesus is hidden in the catacombes under St peters basilica in rome right the catholic church doesnt wont it getting out.But one of the real problems with christianity is it is so muddled i mean theres catholics,luterians,new age snake worshipers in arizona, presbyterians,anglicans,church of england,muddletonian(funny stuff)mormons,amish,greek orthodox ethopian-catholic hybrid the other puritant denominations middle east as well and all came about with small scisims in the church and they have slowly taken differnt directions with there aproach to things and yet they all get bundled into the same catergory

Heh, as Eddie Izard did once...

Jesus: "I swear dad, I just went down, told them to chill out, be nice to each other, and they all scattered! Now we've got the Roman Catholics, the Orthadox, the Presbeterians, the Lutherans, the Quakers, the Bakers, the Candlestick makers..."

The problem with any organized religion is that its an organized religion. Christianity, in its purtest form debunks religion. Too many poeple forget that faith is between a person and whatever god, (or scientific theorey), they believe in. Until it is proven, without a doubt, who is right, faith will always exist.

Well, I just finished the paper, so I'm off to bed. G'night all ;)

Yes, it is a sad thing that Christianity is as ambiguous as it is now, people believing they can infer whatever they want from Scripture and then pretend they're "guiltless" and "morally sound."

However, that leads into philosophical questions - from there into theological questions - from there into exegetical questions - from there into authoritative questions - from there into doctrinal questions.

And there's why there's such a mish-mosh-posh of denominations.

Luther had the right idea the Church needed reform. He had the wrong idea that Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide were credible doctrines.

You know, proving the fact of what should be canonical because the "the Holy Spirit" moves you to reason such... well, I suppose a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints may affirm their beliefs with just as much reliability, what with their "burning in the busom."

Ironic, surely.

However, I am disappionted Goed. I've read a few posts you've made here and there on the message board.

You don't wish to discuss Philosophical moral obligation and moral relativism? I am disappointed. Don't want to play with me. :mad: Maybe I'll get really made and disgruntled then.

:sniper:

Or maybe I'll be sad.

:(

Or maybe I'll go find someone else to play with.

:p

"In nominee Partris, et Filii, Spiritus Sancti."

(First a Philosopher, then a Theologian, last an Apologist. The evolution of an intellectual.)

hope we helped i think the orthodox moved away from the roman catholic church because they didnt think jesus was god and the son of god at the same time plus the crusades or some other war . the presbaterians were given a bible by charles 1 of england and he said you do this so just to be spiteful they messed with it and made their own rules(not entirely true)Martin Luthers a clown! HEnry 8 demanded to marry his dead brothers wife pope says yae the henry says i dont like her new pope says you wanted her so now you got her makes his own church but exactly the same as RC elizabeth1 tinkers a bit and has her own church

Look at it from the Born Again's perspective.

They Know (well, beleive - but they think they know) that those who don't follow Jesus WILL burn in hell for all eternity.

If you beleived this, wouldn't you fight to save your friends and family?

Some do, then again, some have a little bit of respect for other's beliefs.

Me? Personally, I believe that there is not less than one god. But that's just me.

The issue I find with born-agains isn't so much the preachiness (which can come from any religion), but the basic assumption.

As one poster said earlier, they had a grand spiritual revalation, and felt the need to share that with other people. Well, that's all fine and dandy, but that fails to take into account (and, on some occasions, vehemetly denies) the fact that such a catharsis can happen with any religion, any philosophy, any major scientific discovery. I myself am happily pagan (dissatisfaction tactic doesn't work), don't believe in hell (fear tactic doesn't work), and have had multiple such experiences (divine revalation tactic doesn't work). It's fun talking to born-agains, since all they're basically offering me is a different version of what I've already got (95% of the real substance of every worldwide religion is identical), with a lot more rules that I find superfluous.

hope we helped i think the orthodox moved away from the roman catholic church because they didnt think jesus was god and the son of god at the same time plus the crusades or some other war . the presbaterians were given a bible by charles 1 of england and he said you do this so just to be spiteful they messed with it and made their own rules(not entirely true)Martin Luthers a clown! HEnry 8 demanded to marry his dead brothers wife pope says yae the henry says i dont like her new pope says you wanted her so now you got her makes his own church but exactly the same as RC elizabeth1 tinkers a bit and has her own church

Frankly, that's a terribly ambiguous, watered down, and sometimes false history of the Church.

However, atleast you said you "think", instead of saying you "know" why the Eastern Orthodoxy split away from the Roman Church.

It was on disagreements concerning the Papal Authority.

As one poster said earlier, they had a grand spiritual revalation, and felt the need to share that with other people. Well, that's all fine and dandy, but that fails to take into account (and, on some occasions, vehemetly denies) the fact that such a catharsis can happen with any religion, any philosophy, any major scientific discovery. I myself am happily pagan (dissatisfaction tactic doesn't work), don't believe in hell (fear tactic doesn't work), and have had multiple such experiences (divine revalation tactic doesn't work). It's fun talking to born-agains, since all they're basically offering me is a different version of what I've already got (95% of the real substance of every worldwide religion is identical), with a lot more rules that I find superfluous.

You are certainly correct, to an extent. Which is why I believe St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas were quite intelligent and ahead of their times, when they would show the credibility for Christianity not with just mere subjective "instances" of rapture, revelation, and ecstacy.

Such a thing is not a credible way to perform logical rational, and make an actual case for religious proclamation.

Philosophical Theologians are a dead breed. I mourn.

This would be why I study Philosophy, not just exclusively Theology (as I posted before, Theologians must have a grasp of Philosophy as well, and then with those two resources in hand, they perform the great art of Apologetics).

"Lord, in my zeal for the love of truth, let me not forget the truth about love."
~ St. Thomas Aquinas

Here's a great spoof site about born-again Christians: www.landoverbaptist.org

"Hello, I'm God. I created Hell. But don't worry, for I killed my son so you don't have to burn in it (don't ask me to explain the logic in that, because I don't really know myself). Of course, you'll have to forgo your independant, critical, and rational thinking and follow forth in blind faith."


The reason that man has to go to hell, is because they cant go to heaven. Heaven is perfect, and since all mankind have sinned(ever hear of original sin?) they must all go to hell, which is basically exsitance without God. Jesus was our "sacrifice" or the "ultimate sacrifice", the way the Jewish people sacrificed goats or doves in the old testament. This blood sacrifice, through the grace of God, allows us to go to heaven and spend eternity with Him.


I belong to a non-denominatial church-being we basically follow the rules of the bible, and we are pretty liberal compared to other churches. We let our pastors get married, we can wear our weekday clothes to church, our worship has guitarists, bassists, and drummers, we have FUN youth activites, and much more things. We tend not to go out and preach to everyone, but we try to live well, and live through the Holy Spirit, and when people notice the change in our lives, and ask about it, then we tell them.

God doesnt mind us seeking logical explanations, I would like to encourage you all to read The Case for Christ, and the Case for a Creator, by Lee Strobel, an awad winning journalist athiest-turned Christian. But you have to rememeber that the belief in God has to be about trust, or else we would never be able to trust Him in other ways.

You need to understand that when any Christian tries to tell you about his or her beliefs, they're doing it out of a very real and very sincere concern for you. They get no personal benefit out of wasting their time telling you all about how you can be saved. It's probably one of the most selfless things a person can do, to share their joy with someone else in the hope that someone else can also experience that same joy.
I get this same reaction when a non-smoker tries to convince me to give up my butts. "Great," says I. "Glad it helped you. Oh yeah, I read the Surgeon General's warning too, and I know what your version of Truth is. As for me, smoking enhances my life, and I'm willing to pay the associated price. So be it."

In short, your need to share != my need to hear.

Eat this bread, it is my...my...favorite!

I'm aussie too, and we call em "bible bashers" round where I'm from (brisbane). But the ones we have are literally relentless, except they also try to sell you a whole bunch of crap while they're at it. And they don't go away.

I just say I'm a Buddhist and they run off (you can see Female Buddha shrine thingy from my front door).

The reason that man has to go to hell, is because they cant go to heaven. Heaven is perfect, and since all mankind have sinned(ever hear of original sin?) they must all go to hell, which is basically exsitance without God. Jesus was our "sacrifice" or the "ultimate sacrifice", the way the Jewish people sacrificed goats or doves in the old testament. This blood sacrifice, through the grace of God, allows us to go to heaven and spend eternity with Him.

I have trouble with the logic of original sin. First of all, surely the original original sin belonged to the serpent (whose introduction into the Garden of Eden must surely be counted as a mistake -- what was God thinking? And where was he when the serpent was tempting Eve? And how could Adam and Eve hide from an omnipotent and omnipresent God?), since without the serpent then Eve would never have eaten the apple. However, not really important. But was the original sin actually a sin? Before eating the apple of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, Eve obviously had no knowledge of good and evil. Sure, God had told her not to eat the apples, but -- since Eve had no knowledge of good and evil -- she didn't know that disobeying God was wrong. She acted in innocence. Without knowledge of good and evil, how is it possible to sin?

Secondly, how is it logical that all of humanity should suffer for the misdeeds of Adam and Eve? Especially when that misdeed was carried out in what is arguably innocent ignorance of good and evil?

Thirdly, why did it require God to sacrifice himself to himself before he could find it in his infinite compassion to forgive the entire human race for the debateable sin of two of them in a state of innocence eating an apple, the effects of which God had lied about? ("But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." -- Adam and Eve lived for several hundred years after eating the apple.)

Fourthly, there are human beings who have been able to forgive the most monstrous crimes, who have suffered terribly and yet who have found themselves able to forgive their persecutors, whether or not their persecutors have asked for it. What's wrong with God that he can't do the same? If getting into heaven requires perfection, why can't he -- in an act of forgiveness -- make people perfect when they die?

Finally, Adam and Eve are myths. The Biblical story of Creation cannot be taken seriously by anyone who wishes to retain any remnant of their critical faculties. Therefore, there was no "original sin" -- so what was the point of the crucifixion?

You must remember that a B-A has just recently found out something new and great. Thier inability to be tolerant to another persons beliefs is a direct flaw of human instincts: to rush out and tell everyone you know about this new and great toy you got. Its as if they just can't wait to let you know about it. Don't blame them, blame the imperfections of mankind as a whole.

Born-agains themselves are just fine. I'm glad they've found a religion that suits them. It's just when they start trying to convert you and tell you that you're going to Hell and all sorts of other gibberish that I want to give them a spanking.

- Asylum Nova

I have trouble with the logic of original sin. First of all, surely the original original sin belonged to the serpent (whose introduction into the Garden of Eden must surely be counted as a mistake -- what was God thinking? And where was he when the serpent was tempting Eve? And how could Adam and Eve hide from an omnipotent and omnipresent God?), since without the serpent then Eve would never have eaten the apple. However, not really important. But was the original sin actually a sin? Before eating the apple of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, Eve obviously had no knowledge of good and evil. Sure, God had told her not to eat the apples, but -- since Eve had no knowledge of good and evil -- she didn't know that disobeying God was wrong. She acted in innocence. Without knowledge of good and evil, how is it possible to sin?

Secondly, how is it logical that all of humanity should suffer for the misdeeds of Adam and Eve? Especially when that misdeed was carried out in what is arguably innocent ignorance of good and evil?

Thirdly, why did it require God to sacrifice himself to himself before he could find it in his infinite compassion to forgive the entire human race for the debateable sin of two of them in a state of innocence eating an apple, the effects of which God had lied about? ("But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." -- Adam and Eve lived for several hundred years after eating the apple.)

Fourthly, there are human beings who have been able to forgive the most monstrous crimes, who have suffered terribly and yet who have found themselves able to forgive their persecutors, whether or not their persecutors have asked for it. What's wrong with God that he can't do the same? If getting into heaven requires perfection, why can't he -- in an act of forgiveness -- make people perfect when they die?

Finally, Adam and Eve are myths. The Biblical story of Creation cannot be taken seriously by anyone who wishes to retain any remnant of their critical faculties. Therefore, there was no "original sin" -- so what was the point of the crucifixion?


Firstly, I wasnt there, but I assume that the serpant was a test, to see if Adam and Eve could trust and listen to God with everything. They didnt, they were wrong.

Second-Well, have YOU ever sinned or wronged? Basically, even if we didnt inherit it, we still sin. And we are the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve, so we inherit it, like you might inherit something from your parents.

Thirdly, Heaven and God are purfect, we as humans are not. Therefore we cant get into heaven. We cant just be made perfect, we have to become perfect, we need to be cleansed, and we can only be cleansed through perfect blood, so somebody perfect had to come down to earth, live a perfect life, and die as a sacrifice for mankind. And the minute Adam and Eve ate the apple, they might not have been physically dead, but they were spirtually dead.

Fourthly, read the above about beeing made perfect

Fifthly, do you have any proof that it isnt true? Is their no Alexander the Great, or Napoleon, or George Washington,or Martin Luther, or was their no Crusade, just because I said so? No, they all exist. The human race had to start somewhere, right? Why cant it be with Adam and Eve? Because you said it couldnt? Thats not very viable, now is it.

Firstly, I wasnt there, but I assume that the serpant was a test, to see if Adam and Eve could trust and listen to God with everything. They didnt, they were wrong.

OK, but then why did God punish the serpent? If it was part of his plan and all, there to serve God's purpose and test Adam and Eve, it was a bit rough blaming the serpent for showing up the shoddy nature of God's handiwork. And it still doesn't answer the question: how could Eve sin, since she had no knowledge of good and evil until she ate the apple of the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

Second-Well, have YOU ever sinned or wronged? Basically, even if we didnt inherit it, we still sin.

That's not the same thing as original sin at all. The crucifixion was to free us of original sin, not sin in general.

And we are the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve, so we inherit it, like you might inherit something from your parents.

My great-great grandfather was an opium addict, and was, apparently, not above a bit of child-abandonment and petty theft in the day-to-day management of his habit. Should I be punished for his actions? How can you inherit sin?

Thirdly, Heaven and God are purfect, we as humans are not. Therefore we cant get into heaven. We cant just be made perfect, we have to become perfect, we need to be cleansed, and we can only be cleansed through perfect blood, so somebody perfect had to come down to earth, live a perfect life, and die as a sacrifice for mankind.

God is all-powerful, right? There's nothing he can't do? So why can't he make us perfect? All this stuff about the need for blood to cleanse us is just weird, frankly. An all-powerful deity doesn't have to do any one thing in any one particular way. Are you saying that the guy who said "let there be light" couldn't just say "let everyone be perfect"?

And the minute Adam and Eve ate the apple, they might not have been physically dead, but they were spirtually dead.

Which is not what God said, but never mind.

Fourthly, read the above about beeing made perfect

Read what I've said above about being "made perfect". If God wants to do something, he just does it, right? Pow, heaven and earth. Bang, firmament; zap, sun and moon; ker-flunch, day and night. Forgive people for something their ancient ancestors did, even though they didn't really know it was wrong at the time? Get born by a virgin, live for 33 years, preach a bit, get executed by the Romans for stirring up the locals, leave behind a somewhat garbled and contradictory set of accounts of these events written down at best nearly 100 years after they occurred. I can't think of a sound effect for that one.

Fifthly, do you have any proof that it isnt true? Is their no Alexander the Great, or Napoleon, or George Washington,or Martin Luther, or was their no Crusade, just because I said so? No, they all exist. The human race had to start somewhere, right? Why cant it be with Adam and Eve? Because you said it couldnt? Thats not very viable, now is it.

I don't have any "proof" that it's not true, no, although the story doesn't fit the observable facts regarding the origin and development of life on earth, the size and age of the universe, etc etc (see http://www.talkorigins.org for more details). If the Bible story is true, then God sure went out of his way to make it look like a bunch of hooey. I know there's an argument that all these things are put here to "test our faith" -- but how do you know the Bible isn't here to test our gullibility?

Do you have any proof that it is true? The slightest smidgin of a reason to assume that it all actually happened, other than it appearing in one particular big old book of stories? What about the Babylonian creation myths? Or the Greek, or the Egyptian, or the Mayan, or the Cree, or the Norse, or any of the other myriad myths that the human race has invented to explain its origins?

The human race had to start somewhere, right? Why can't this be the way it happened?

At first there was only a great void, Ginnungagap. Eventually a region of mist and ice, Niflheim, was formed in the North and a region of fire, Muspellsheim, was formed in the South. The great world-tree, Yggdrasil, reached through all time and space, but was perpetually under attack from Nidhogg, the evil serpent. The fountain of Mimir, source of hidden wisdom, lay under a root of the tree. Niflheim came into contact with Muspellsheim, and the fires melted the ice, which yielded Ymir, the Frost-Giant with a human form. From Ymir's sweat came a race of Giants, so that a huge cow (Audhumla) was created to feed them. One day the cow licked the ice and hair emerged, on the next day a head, and on the third day Buri emerged, fully formed. Buri begot a son, Bur, who in turn had three sons: Odin, Vili, and Ve. These three were a new race, not Giants but gods. They banded together and murdered Ymir. Most of the other Giants drowned in Ymir's blood, which created a great sea. From Ymir's body the three gods made solid land, the earth, and from his skull they made the heavens. They then created a race of dwarves from the maggots that fed upon Ymir's body. This was followed by the creation of the first man and the first woman. They shaped the man from an ash tree and the woman from a vine.

Because you said it couldn't? That's not very viable, now, is it?

You see where this kind of reasoning leads?

But I'm willing to go along with your myth of choice. You still haven't explained how Adam and Eve could commit a sin before they ate the apple of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Without knowledge of good and evil, how can it be possible to sin?

You haven't explained how sin can be inherited.

And you haven't explained why a God who could create the universe in 6 days had to go through such a bizarre and complicated process to be able to start to forgive people of this inherited sin.

Hello demented, I must retort.

First off your freind however wrong it might seem to you has found something that makes her truly happy, when a person feels such a way they must share it. Havent u ever felt that way say over a new gf/bf (I don't know if ur a guy/girl) or over a new toy, or car? U would feel like bursting if you didn't share, and anyway why not share something that has so possitively changed your life? No God is a jealous God, you can not be 'nice' and get to heaven. According to the Bible no adult dies before hearing about God. Just to let you know, God hates religion. all that according to the Bible. Tell your freind her efforts are not being heeded and you will tell her when if ever it is welcome. (although you can say it in a nicer just as effective way) The Christian way is to back off if someone says that. I think you can atleast appreciate her sentiment on trying to save your eternal soul, however unwelcome it was.

It's not religon that I have a problem, but like you said, people that have used and twisted it to thier own ends. Or how if you believe something different then you are evil

Jesus HATED religion too. You can read about it if you'd care to open the book. A lot more people agree on the same points as Jesus without ever realizing it, but they just comply with the system because it's the easy thing to do. Kinda sucks...

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/beyond-belief.pdf

for whoever is interested.

I mean I dispise them. Now don't get me wrong I don't have a problem with religion per se, but why do B-A's feel the need to try to convert you every chance they get?
I just finished chatting with a friend on Messenger, and she's suddenly become one. So instead of humourous stories and jokes we usually swap, she's done nothing but talk about God this and Jesus that.

The fact that your friend is a RECENT convert may have more to do with it; anyone who's newly discovered a whole new philosophy/idea/religion/etc. is usually all giddy and excited about it for a while -- sometimes to the point of tedium.

I read somewhere that someone suggested everyone who converts to a new religion or philosophy should just agree to go into a temporary quarantine for a few months until the zeal wears off, otherwise they'll annoy the hell out of everyone else. ;)

I mean I dispise them. Now don't get me wrong I don't have a problem with religion per se, but why do B-A's feel the need to try to convert you every chance they get?
I just finished chatting with a friend on Messenger, and she's suddenly become one. So instead of humourous stories and jokes we usually swap, she's done nothing but talk about God this and Jesus that.
I mean here's a sample of her msgs:
"so good for him but when he dies and realises that he is in hell for his atheism it will be too late then, he can't hail mary himself out of hell"
"God created us in his own image, to have an abundant life, he didn't make us robots to automatically love and obey Him...we CHOSE to disobey God and go our own willful way..some of us (i.e: yourself) still make this choice today. We all fall short of the glory of God and have all sinned and people try to bridge this gap in many way"
And so on ad nauseum.
I vehemently dislike this immediate assumption these B-As have that if you don't worship their God, you're going to Hell. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that Jesus was meant to be a forgiving sort. So surely if you live a good clean life (nice to small animals etc etc) you'd still have a chance (assuming Heaven exists, which it doesn't). Because by their logic all those really decent honest good ppl in remote areas of the world who have never heard of JC wre going to Hell. That's a pretty mean petty thing to do IMHO.
The problem here is that it winds me up. I dislike people trying to 'save' me and so I start winding them up.
I just mentioned that maybe Islam is the one true path, so perhaps she'll be going to Hell with the rest of us unbelievers.

It sounds like ur friend cares about u and thats a good thing imo. If she didnt care about u then she woodnt say ne thing. U may not like what she tells u but she is trying to be nice to u.

Conversation overheard at a recent party I was at:

"Jesus died for your sins."
"Ok ... but what has he done for me lately?"

I also saw a lovely bumper sticker that said "Born Right the First Time" and had a nice pentagram on it.

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/beyond-belief.pdf

for whoever is interested.
i can't stand pdf files... :)
anyway, as a(n) atheist/Buddhist i thank you for posting this as i will find it very interesting

Every religion has its time. The newwest religion is Evolutionism. In a thousand years it will likely be based on the presence of extra-terresrial biengs, (Alienism). from there, who knows?

I just ignore them.

i have a few points to make

the first was recently covered, she has a new "toy" that is her obsession right now. avoid her for a while and see if she doesnt settle down some. she'll probably be less obnoxious in a month or so, if not, you may have to drop her as a close friend.

people are individuals. many people are born again and are not out trying to convert every one they see. the thing is, you dont notice them because they arent bugging you. its more correct to think of your friend as having become suddenly insensitive rather than that all born again christians are fanatical nutcases

you gotta learn to tell people to shut the F up. people are always trying to "sell" you something from evangelical christians to telemaketers. the sooner you learn to say "thanks but im not interested" the easier your life is going to be. get some backbone and tell her not to try to convert you until the day (when hell freezes over) that you ASK her to.

Now before people start flaming me just hear me out then flame all you want, My father was a pastor, and I am a christian myself. The people that give christians bad names are the people who go around telling non believers they are going to hell like a threat and forcing religion upon them, or at least trying too. I believe that is wrong. when ever I talk to someone about religion and if they tell me they dont want to hear it. Then thats it. end of discussion. I offered, they declined so I wont force it upon them.

Secondly

I have talked to a lot of people who are atheist, and I have come to the conclusion that it takes more faith to be an atheist than it does to be a christian. I mean it must take a whole lot of faith to believe in nothing, that there is no afterlife, no forgiveness, that you came from ameoba's, dust, monkeys whatever, than it does to believe that there is something waiting after we die, that there is someone who will forgive you. That there is someone who cares. Now dont try and go with the argument "if God does exist then why do bad things happen?" Well, I don't have a "official" answer to that but I have some speculation, again please wait for the flaming, now God did not create sin. Man did. Humans chose to sin, we are beings of free will, not robots. the reason christians say non-believers go to hell is not because God is bad or mean, it even says in the Bible that Hell was not meant for man. It was meant for Satan and his angels. The reason man goes to hell is because when he sinned he became unclean, and no sin can enter heaven.

Ok Im done, I have not bashed or mocked anyone's beliefs and if it seems like I have then it was not my intent so dont flame me too much.

when ever I talk to someone about religion and if they tell me they dont want to hear it. Then thats it. end of discussion. I offered, they declined so I wont force it upon them.
No reason to flame you that I can see. If more Evangelical Christians had this sort of attitude, nobody would have needed to start this topic. You don't see a lot of topics bashing Hindu or Shinto missionaries, do you?

i have a friend who because of his religion is a vegetarian
for some reason i just cant help insulting him everytime i eat my lunch

If you're just joking to this person, then it's all okay.

If you're serious about the insults, don't expect to have friends afterwards.

Well said, Steel Legions. That is my personal opinion as well.

Which raises the crux of the matter. Forcing faith upon someone is not tenable faith, and thus not salvific anyway, so it becomes a moot issue.

The medieval practice of forcing the conversion of thousands to Christendom was absurd and sick, really. If Christianity is true (rhetoric for now), according to its very principles, those people would not be saved anyway. If they're merely forced to pay lip service, then the whole basis for your proselytizing has been lost - not to mention, it's a far-cry from how Jesus Christ and the apostles spread the message.

However, likewise, if based on the principles of Christianity and the commandments of Christ, one must spread the Gospel and His Word (as someone already mentioned way back).

The reasons for evangelizing are wide and many, and the main points have already been discussed, but here's a run down again:

1) Christians are commanded to spread the Word by their very God - Christ
2) They believe it's the only way to Heaven, and they actually want to see you there as well (Christians should not wish anyone to hell)
3) They are full of rapture as new converts, and hence have that zeal to spread their new found hope
4) Some denominations stress evangelizing more than others

Now, if someone doesn't want to hear about - meaning, after you've already explained the principles of Christianity to them - well, then you might as well drop it, honestly. From there, you witness by living, such as upholding Christian values and principles (which, hypocrisy is one of the common deturrents from Christianity these days). At some further time in the future, perhaps they'll become curious and dialogue shall be formed.

The point is, trying to witness to someone who simply does not want to hear it will have the opposite of intended effect, as several have pointed out. You are simply annoying and frustrating them more than anything, and it will not change anything.

And it goes the flip side as well. As an Intellectual Christian, many of my Christian friends do not understand nor care for the importance of Philosophical questions and Apologetics, and would rather ignore such studies for the sentimental and emotional, such as, "Jesus loves us, so none of those doctrinal questions matter." I could still try to force discussion with them and attempt to proclaim the importance of intellectuality to them - but most likely I'm only frustrating and ostracizing them.

If people don't want to hear it, well, there's simply nothing you can do, so let it go. However, always be willing to talk if they later come to you with questions and wish to discuss your beliefs.

That being said - I'm resolute to assume that many people here find Christianity not credible.

However, while being Christian and loving Apologetics, I was hoping to first start on a Philosophical question.

Do you believe in a Philosophical moral obligation or perhaps moral subjectivity (moral relativism)?

I love it when they say they're going to pray for me. It's usually the sign that I've won the argument, and they're all out of spiel.

Just a side question: in Australia we call them "born-again Christians" or sometimes "reborn Christians" - what term do they use in the USA? Is it the same as "fundamentalist Christians"?


I call 'em "Fundies". But yeah, they're the same thing.


I don't hate them though, I have much fun debating them online. :p

Look, I have nothing against them per-se, but I have had bad experiences.

I have some good friends "converted" at times of vulnerability (after losing a loved one, breaking up with a girlfriend etc.). In these cases, they went from being relatively carefree, funloving, well adjusted people to repressed sheep, turning their backs on existing friends in favour of friends within "the church".

From my personal experience, born-again groups are just as much a cult as any other. They prey on vulnerable individuals, bring them into the fold, and subtly "brainwash" them with a new set of ideals. Funny thing is, when other groups use these same tactics (scientologists, orange people, branch Davidians etc.) they are cults, but when it's born-again Christians, most people seem to think it's A-OK.

They have even tried it on with me - I was lured to one of their meetings under the premise that it was "jam session" for some local bands. Fortunately I had a strong enough will and enough common sense not to buy into what they were shovelling. In fact, back when I was younger and used to be a full-blown metalhead, I used to get mobbed by "good intentioned" born-agains every time I went into the city - shoving pamphlets in my face, telling me how heavy metal is "evil", how I'll burn if I don't conform to their ideals, how I'd be much happier if I was to join their group etc etc etc. A buddy of mine at the time (and fellow metalhead) was very well versed in most forms of theology and comparitive religion - he would debate with them, and nine times out of ten, knew the Bible and religious teaching better than they did :p

In short, I strongly respect people's right to believe whatever they want - it's when they want to strongarm or trick others into believeing the same thing that really honks me off.

I mean I dispise them. Now don't get me wrong I don't have a problem with religion per se, but why do B-A's feel the need to try to convert you every chance they get?
I just finished chatting with a friend on Messenger, and she's suddenly become one. So instead of humourous stories and jokes we usually swap, she's done nothing but talk about God this and Jesus that.
I mean here's a sample of her msgs:
"so good for him but when he dies and realises that he is in hell for his atheism it will be too late then, he can't hail mary himself out of hell"
"God created us in his own image, to have an abundant life, he didn't make us robots to automatically love and obey Him...we CHOSE to disobey God and go our own willful way..some of us (i.e: yourself) still make this choice today. We all fall short of the glory of God and have all sinned and people try to bridge this gap in many way"
And so on ad nauseum.
I vehemently dislike this immediate assumption these B-As have that if you don't worship their God, you're going to Hell. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that Jesus was meant to be a forgiving sort. So surely if you live a good clean life (nice to small animals etc etc) you'd still have a chance (assuming Heaven exists, which it doesn't). Because by their logic all those really decent honest good ppl in remote areas of the world who have never heard of JC wre going to Hell. That's a pretty mean petty thing to do IMHO.
The problem here is that it winds me up. I dislike people trying to 'save' me and so I start winding them up.

As a Christian, I've always thought smashing my religion over somebody's head was a stupid and mean thing to do. I've even had other Christians do that to me, simply because I have some disagreements with hard-liners, and they assume that because I don't believe and worship in the same way they do, then something's wrong with me and I'm going to Hell. What kind of impression is that going to make, anyway? Now, if a person ASKS ME questions, or indicates to me a willingness to discuss matters of faith, by all means I will. But shoving it down someone's throat is something that I don't want to do to others, nor do I like it done to me.

For one thing, I think your friend might need to be aware of the fact that there are OTHER ways to "witness"...some that don't even involve speaking. These sorts of things include service projects and simply conducting oneself in a manner befitting Christian ethics. If she is sincere in her convictions, I think she should be made aware of this in order to give her a different way to direct her religious passion. Many times these sorts of things can actually be a much MORE effective witness than words ever will be.

About believing myself superior or thinking everybody else is going to Hell or whatever...I recently read the book of Romans for the first time, out of curiosity on the salvation doctrine--and surprisingly enough to me, it actually left me with the same general impression I've always had: that we human beings cannot know all of the factors at work, when it comes to this person or that one. As such, we cannot make assumptions about another person's salvation. There are even some verses that at times even suggest my personal thoughts, that it may well be possible for people in other beliefs to enter Heaven. I'm not a theologian and I imagine a real one would tear me to pieces in a debate, but that's my sincere belief, take it or leave it.

Oh...on metal, and any kind of music, I agree it's stupid to trash an entire genre like that. There ARE many bands I won't touch because their messages annoy/anger/upset me (and I'm one of those who cares about lyrics and message), but it IS narrow to say the entire genre will send you to Hell. Give me a break. ;-)

I have talked to a lot of people who are atheist, and I have come to the conclusion that it takes more faith to be an atheist than it does to be a christian.

That's an interesting point of view.

I mean it must take a whole lot of faith to believe in nothing, that there is no afterlife, no forgiveness...

There's no evidence for an afterlife, or for "forgiveness", or for anything that would be able to provide "forgiveness". Personally I find it easier to believe in things for which there is some evidence -- such as

...that you came from ameoba's, dust, monkeys whatever...

See, there's evidence for this. There are fossils, there are genetic sequences, there are things you can see and touch and verify. It doesn't take "faith" to believe the evidence of your own eyes. At least, not for me.

Now dont try and go with the argument "if God does exist then why do bad things happen?" Well, I don't have a "official" answer to that but I have some speculation, again please wait for the flaming, now God did not create sin. Man did. Humans chose to sin, we are beings of free will, not robots. the reason christians say non-believers go to hell is not because God is bad or mean, it even says in the Bible that Hell was not meant for man. It was meant for Satan and his angels. The reason man goes to hell is because when he sinned he became unclean, and no sin can enter heaven.

Ok Im done, I have not bashed or mocked anyone's beliefs and if it seems like I have then it was not my intent so dont flame me too much.

Please don't take this as a flame. I just want to try to understand why you believe what are, to me, obviously myths and legends. Obviously you are an intelligent person: I really want to try to understand how you manage to believe these things which to me make no sense at all.

God created all things, according to your belief, did he not? Does that not include Lucifer and the fallen angels? Why did they sin? They must have had free will too; why did God feel it necessary to make even-more-imperfect humans? Why did the angels choose to rebel? What would be the point in rebelling against an all-powerful God?

And an all-knowing God would be able to see all events that would occur, including me writing this. Does that not interfere with free will? Also, why does a murderer get to exercise his free will in killing people at random? What about the free will of the people he kills?

How can an all-loving or even merely infinitely just God allow his creations, whether fallen angels or sinning humans, to suffer eternal punishment? Isn't that a bit OTT? Why is it a sin not to believe in God, or not to be a Christian? Why would God care what we believed? Surely our actions are more important? If no sin can enter heaven, then why can't an all-powerful God simply wipe away the sin?

I have talked to a lot of people who are atheist, and I have come to the conclusion that it takes more faith to be an atheist than it does to be a christian.

Except for the fact that, in order to believe in God, you have to be told about God and convinced it exists. Left to their own devices, people would be atheist by default, at least, until they find where strange mushrooms grow.


Now dont try and go with the argument "if God does exist then why do bad things happen?" Well, I don't have a "official" answer to that but I have some speculation, again please wait for the flaming, now God did not create sin. Man did.

Er... no, that doesn't work. God created sin indirectly, by creating man. Since he's supposed to be all-powerful and all-knowing, he would be well aware of the consequences of his actions. Claiming it wasn't anything to do with god, is a bit like shooting someone, and then claiming that you didn't kill them, you only pulled the trigger, and were in fact standing ten feet away when they died.

And, if God isn't all knowing... then I just flipped him the bird and he probably didn't see me. Har har!

I have talked to a lot of people who are atheist, and I have come to the conclusion that it takes more faith to be an atheist than it does to be a christian. I mean it must take a whole lot of faith to believe in nothing, that there is no afterlife, no forgiveness, that you came from ameoba's, dust, monkeys whatever, than it does to believe that there is something waiting after we die, that there is someone who will forgive you. That there is someone who cares.

How did you come to that conclusion?

As I said in the first missive, I have nothing against Christians per se. In fact two of the most interesting ppl I've ever met were Born-Agains. One I met when I was working in a gym. He used to come in all the time and work-out hard. Covered in tats, had the look about him that he had been with a hard lot at one time. After a couple of months he asked me to give him a fitness check and it was only then I saw he had put down his occupation as a Pastor! As it was just before Xmas, I asked him how he felt about giving Midnight Mass. He told me he didn't bother. Worshipping Christ was a 24/7 as far as he was concerned, not something you turned up a couple of times a year to make yourself feel better.
(BTW he had been with a biker gang and done time for GBH and drug dealing).
He never felt the need to 'convert' me. He said it would always come from within. If I ever felt it, he would be ready to help me, but he wasn't ever going to hassle or push someone. I admire that in someone, who has that much faith and belief (regardless of whether I personally agree with them).
The B-As who feel the need to convert you or mention it every bloody chance they get (and with my 'friend' I did in fact try to change subjects by telling about seeing someone for the first time in months and how happy they looked, only to be told it must be because they had let the Love of Christ into their lives. BTW that's when I started going on about Islam) obviously don't have that faith and strength of belief. If they convert someone, it reinforces that they're on the right track.
But the way they contact all their friends to do it - t's worse than Amway!!

Heh. I have an interesting perspective on this.

I was raised on the idea that I could belive anything I wanted. at 17 I became a lutheran, but by 19 I had realised that every supposed 'Christian' in my church, youth group and community was a hypocrite, and I didn't want to be realated to that.

.

That was my problem with "Mainstream Religion". They are full of hypocrites who would always preach one thing, but after the Service, would turn around and do just the opposite, thinking that because they went to Church, God would forgive them and they could basically do whatever the hell they wanted.

I am a prime example of how one could be a Christian without feeling the need to go to Church. I have not stepped foot inside a church in about 2 years

Some (esp Catholics) will tell you that you cannot be Saved without going to Church....the Church is just a man-made institution of worship. Everywhere is my Church, because I can worship God anywhere..... nowhere in the Bible is it written "Go to Church to be saved"

Salvation comes from Jesus.... not a brick and wood building we call a "Church".

I do think going to church can be of great value, though, for many reasons. I will readily admit to liking the sense of community (or better yet, going with family), and to finding the rituals/music/prayer helpful. I know they are symbolic, and I don't confine my spirituality to the church building, but it makes a good meditation focus.

But the trick is to find a church community that clearly tries its best to uphold Christian ideals. There are no congregations that are going to be without sin, and that's the mindset I keep going in. If I don't find a suitable church where I am, then I don't go, but I think it can be very nice if you DO find one. Just please don't let one bad experience with one congregation or denomination sour you on it forever.

oh and as for "B-A"s trying to convert you, what religion doesn't, if the religion said, "OK, worship the other gods we don't believe in" how long would it last, keep an eye out for other religioius solicitation too.

buddhism is quite compatible with most other religions and they never claim to be the sole holders of truth.

and last i knew, there were still a fair number of buddhists out there.

That's because the experience genuinely leads you to see the entire universe as inextricably inseparable from the Divine. Everything IS about God at that point. It induces a sense of awe -as if you saw the moon crash into the ocean. How long would you be able to go without talking about something as astounding as that?


I became a born again christian, I am not now. After you realize it is the same experience that indians have when communicating with nature, I had a friend convert to budhism and they said it was the exact same feeling, you realize anyone can have it, in any religion. Second, most born agains I know, use God as a crutch, not as a guide. .......
Why did you do this? God justifies me in my ways. You are dating a 16 year old girl and you are 24..but we don't have sex. Awww, much better
Why are you building a bible college, because we need to spread the word, what about the homeless people on sixth street?, they can come too, why didn't you just make it a giant homeles shelter, umm, that is not Gods plan for us at the moment.

Also, religous people, the republicans hide behind abortion, anti gay sentiments, and anti-islamic terrorist sentiments in order to get your vote. If you took all that away, you would see their choices are rich and not christian. Just like the democrats hide behind non religous sentiments to get the other sides vote. Ugh, I am not trying to cause trouble here. These are just observations.

why born-agains piss me off

they feel they deserve, and sadly receive, some sort of appreciation and compensation for "coming back to God". and like i said, the worst part aobut it is THYE GET IT. good job dipweed, you came back to god, that doesnt magically make you a better person until you can prove it CONSISTENTLY.
STOP PRAISING BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS. any sect of christianity that recognizes "born-again" christians is certifiable.

Now before people start flaming me just hear me out then flame all you want, My father was a pastor, and I am a christian myself. The people that give christians bad names are the people who go around telling non believers they are going to hell like a threat and forcing religion upon them, or at least trying too. I believe that is wrong. when ever I talk to someone about religion and if they tell me they dont want to hear it. Then thats it. end of discussion. I offered, they declined so I wont force it upon them.

Secondly

I have talked to a lot of people who are atheist, and I have come to the conclusion that it takes more faith to be an atheist than it does to be a christian. I mean it must take a whole lot of faith to believe in nothing, that there is no afterlife, no forgiveness, that you came from ameoba's, dust, monkeys whatever, than it does to believe that there is something waiting after we die, that there is someone who will forgive you. That there is someone who cares. Now dont try and go with the argument "if God does exist then why do bad things happen?" Well, I don't have a "official" answer to that but I have some speculation, again please wait for the flaming, now God did not create sin. Man did. Humans chose to sin, we are beings of free will, not robots. the reason christians say non-believers go to hell is not because God is bad or mean, it even says in the Bible that Hell was not meant for man. It was meant for Satan and his angels. The reason man goes to hell is because when he sinned he became unclean, and no sin can enter heaven.

Ok Im done, I have not bashed or mocked anyone's beliefs and if it seems like I have then it was not my intent so dont flame me too much.


if god created man, then man chose to sin, god in fact did create sin
2. If Jesus took on all sins then we all go to heaven because then we are clean, even if gay etc.

problems with theology, not trying to flame

i can't stand pdf files... :)
anyway, as a(n) atheist/Buddhist i thank you for posting this as i will find it very interesting

I found Beyond Belief to be an excellent critique of Fundamentalist Christianity from a Buddhist's perspective, but I try not to dwell on it too much, instead currently trying to wade through some of Thich Nhat Hanh's writings.

It does provide many convincing arguments, when confronted by an adamament fundamentalist in the throes of condeming you to the eternal pit though.

If you can get around the pdf,
http://www.buddhanet.net/ebooks.htm
actually has quite an extensive library of readings from the very basic Fundamentals of Buddhism and Buddhism in a Nutshell to the much more advanced readings and meditations like The Dhammapada, and Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta.

It's no replacement for a Sangha, or a good Dharmacharya but it is an excellent repository. The site itself at http://www.buddhanet.net/ is excellent.

I have the hardest time converting people at all. I know it's what I goto be doing but all I can do now is talk about other things other than a person being separated from God for all eternity. I have had a couple of first hand experiences that have increased my faith. It's alot like a nuke going off in your mind. You are overcome with these words that are impossible to describe that keep popping in your head for no apparent reason. There's no way I can put it down in English. I can identify with this verse.

Corinthians 2:9 but as it is written, Things which eye saw not, and ear heard not, And which entered not into the heart of man, Whatsoever things God prepared for them that love him.
10 But unto us God revealed them through the Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For who among men knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of the man, which is in him? even so the things of God none knoweth, save the Spirit of God.
12 But we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God; that we might know the things that were freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in words which man?s wisdom teacheth, but which the Spirit teacheth; combining spiritual things with spiritual words .
14 Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, and he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

If you don't believe then you don't believe thats it, you cant force someone to believe in God.

I really hate atheists but you do see me trying to make them believe in God.

I really hate atheists but you do see me trying to make them believe in God.

Maybe not you personally, but a LOT of Christians do...

BTW, if you are a Christian, shouldn't you love atheists, even though they are "misguided"? I don't think hate was really the point Jesus was trying to make...