NationStates Jolt Archive

With all of the focus on Florida as a haven for Republican voting misdeeds, how can this woman be so blantantly obvious? I thought the Rebublicans were craftier than this. Perhaps they feel that since the 2000 election was never contested (even though there is irrefutable proof that over 40,000 black Democrats were illegally stricken from the voting roles) they are all powerful and can fix every election from now on.

Madame Butterfly Flies Off with Ballots
Florida Fixed Again? Absentee Ballots Go Absent
by Greg Palast

Sunday, August 29, 2004.

On Friday, Theresa LePore, Supervisor of Elections in Palm Beach,
candidate for re-election as Supervisor of Elections, chose to supervise her
own election, no one allowed. This Tuesday, Florida votes for these
nominally non-partisan posts.

You remember Theresa, "Madame Butterfly," the one whose ballots brought
in the big vote for Pat Buchanan in the Jewish precincts in November
2000. Then she failed to do the hand count that would have changed the
White House from Blue to Red.

This time, Theresa's in a hurry to get to the counting. She began
tallying absentee ballots on Friday in her own re-election race. Not to
worry: the law requires the Supervisor of Elections in each county to
certify poll-watchers to observe the count.

But Theresa has a better idea. She refused to certify a single
poll-watcher from opponents' organizations despite the legal requirement she
do so by last week. She'll count her own votes herself, thank you very
much!

And so far, she's doing quite well. Although 37,000 citizens have
requested absentee ballots, she says she'd only received 22,000 when she
began the count. Where are the others? Don't ask: though she posts the
names of requesters, she won't release the list of those who have
voted, an eyebrow-raising deviation from standard procedure.

And she has no intention of counting all the ballots received. She has
reserved for herself the right to determine which ballots have
acceptable signatures. Her opponent, Democrat Art Anderson, had asked Theresa
to use certified hand-writing experts, instead of her hand-picked
hacks, to check the signatures.

Unfortunately, while Federal law requires Theresa to allow a voter to
correct a signature rejection when registering, the Feds don't require
her to permit challenges to absentee ballot rejections.

I know what you're thinking. How could Madame Butterfly know how
people are voting? Well, she's printed PARTY AFFILIATION on the OUTSIDE of
each return envelope. That certainly makes it easier to figure out
which ballot is valid, don't it?

And dear Reader, please take note of the implications of this story for
the big vote in November. Millions have sought refuge in absentee
ballots as a method to avoid the dangers of the digitizing of democracy.
Florida and other states are reporting 400%-plus increases in absentee
ballot requests due to fear of the new computer voting machinery. Some
refuge. LePore is giving us an early taste of how the Bush Leaguers
intend to care for your absentee ballot.

If there's no safety in the absentee ballot, how about the computerized
machines? The LePores of America have that one figured out too.

On Friday, the day on which Theresa began her Kremlim-style vote count,
the New York Times ran a puff piece on Jeb's Palm Beach political pet.
Cub reporter Amy Goodnough derided fears of Democrats who painted "dark
scenarios" about the computer voting machines Madame Butterfly
installed over the objections of the state's official voting technology task
force.

If you're wondering why the experts told her not to use the machines,
I'll tell you -- because the New York Times won't. It's not because the
voting specialists are anti-technology Luddites. The fact is that
Florida counties using touch-screens have reported a known error rate 600%
greater than the alternative, paper ballots read by optical scanners.
And those errors have occurred -- surprise! -- overwhelmingly in
African-American precincts.

First Brother Jeb has teamed with LePore to keep the vote clean and
white. Together they have refused the Democrats request for the
more-reliable paper ballots as an option for voters.

In Leon County, by contrast, Elections Supervisor Ion Sancho insisted
on paper ballots and did not lose a single vote to error in the March
presidential primary. Sancho told me it's a slam-dunk certainty that the
computer screens will snatch away several thousand Palm Beach votes.

Theresa and the Jebster have been quite close since LePore came out of
the closet. The Republican-turned-Democrat, nominally independent,
this year accepted the sticky embrace of the Republican Party. One really
has to wonder if she ever truly left the Blues in the first place.

It's a shame that Supervisor LePore was too busy counting her votes and
rejecting ballots to respond to my phone calls. I wanted to be the
first to congratulate her on her election victory -- two days before the
election. Or maybe she fears I might be the early birddog who catches
the butterfly as she turns back into a worm.

**********
Greg Palast is the author of the New York Times bestseller, The Best
Democracy Money Can Buy. His article on vote manipulation in Florida for
Harper's Magazine, was nominated for a 2002 National Magazine

So why do you think the so-called "liberal media" is not covering this?

I'd love for someone to refute this. I'd also love for LePore to be spanked for being such a bad girl.

Umm this is a dumb article and it's mean and makes fun of Mr.Bush, whos nice and beats up the bad people. I have a tv!

It just blows your mind.

yeah it's a sad state of affairs when scandals like this go unreported while sheeyat like this is a leasd story:

Republicans Open Convention, Plan 9/11 Tribute

Aug 30, 10:25 AM (ET)

By John Whitesides, Political Correspondent
NEW YORK (Reuters) - Republicans opened their national convention on Monday to nominate President Bush for a second term with plans for four days of tributes to his wartime leadership and his response to the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

The opening session will be highlighted by a tribute to victims of the Sept. 11 attacks and a salute to Bush by two party leaders who appeal to moderates, former New York Mayor Rudolph Giuliani and Arizona Sen. John McCain.

"He has been tested and has risen to the most important challenge of our time, and I salute him," McCain said of Bush in prepared excerpts of his speech released by the campaign.

McCain is saluting Bush? gah!

And the 9/11 tribute thing is just disgusting. Nice way to capitalize on a disaster you fvcks.

So why do you think the so-called "liberal media" is not covering this?

I'd love for someone to refute this. I'd also love for LePore to be spanked for being such a bad girl.
Because even the media is sensible enough to ignore Greg Palast's garbage.

McCain is saluting Bush? gah!
Well, they are in the same party. If McCain came out in support of another candidate, life would get difficult for him in the Republican party.

Theresa LePore was elected as a Democrat to the Supervisor of Elections position for Palm Beach and was a democrat during the butterfly ballot snafu. She has since switched to the Independent. party. No way is she in cahoots with the Republicans.

Theresa LePore was elected as a Democrat to the Supervisor of Elections position for Palm Beach and was a democrat during the butterfly ballot snafu. She has since switched to the Independent. party. No way is she in cahoots with the Republicans.

Thats what people outside of Florida seem to forget....the supervisor of elections and her staff in 2000 were Democrats. ;) SHE created the system of voting that caused all the mess. SHE determined the counting method when they started recounting.

Meh .... Bush can have Florida ... Kerry will still win without it.

The author has told us that she started her political career as a Republican and has recently returned to the Republican Party. If this is so then the implication that she never really left the republican side and was simply acting as a saboteur is very strong.

I was going to say... oh she's currently Democrat? Then that is a good thing cuz apparently you need to cheat to win elections nowadays and so good for the Democrats this time around.

Although if she was a democrat during the 2000 elections then why didnt we hear anythign from her about what K Harris and Jeb Bush was doing with their DBT/Choicepoint contract?

I was going to say... oh she's currently Democrat? Then that is a good thing cuz apparently you need to cheat to win elections nowadays and so good for the Democrats this time around.

Although if she was a democrat during the 2000 elections then why didnt we hear anythign from her about what K Harris and Jeb Bush was doing with their DBT/Choicepoint contract?

Because K Harris was following the letter of the law at the time.

Because K Harris was following the letter of the law at the time.

oh so you don't know the story eh? Thats fine... if you ever feel like reading about the truth that the liberal american media isnt allowed to report you can go get the scoop at www.gregpalast.com or read "the best democracy money can buy".

incidentally, I dont think its the law of the land to scrub tens of thousands of legal voters off the voting roles based on race, party affiliation and partial name matches and crimes commited 40 years in the future.

Theresa was a Democrat during the 2000 elections

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A48690-2004May22.html
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/politics/9519271.htm
http://dir.salon.com/politics/red/2001/05/09/blue/index.html
http://jerz.setonhill.edu/design/usability/use-ballot.htm


Now she declines to commit to any party.

Now she declines to commit to any party.

Would you? She has been threatened and vilified by many people who should know better.

Is this law of the land? http://www.nydailynews.com/08-22-2004/front/story/224449p-192807c.html



With debate over the 2000 election still raging, thousands of people illegally register in both New York City and Florida, which could swing an election.

Some 46,000 New Yorkers are registered to vote in both the city and Florida, a shocking finding that exposes both states to potential abuses that could alter the outcome of elections, a Daily News investigation shows.
Registering in two places is illegal in both states, but the massive snowbird scandal goes undetected because election officials don't check rolls across state lines.

The finding is even more stunning given the pivotal role Florida played in the 2000 presidential election, when a margin there of 537 votes tipped a victory to George W. Bush.

Computer records analyzed by The News don't allow for an exact count of how many people vote in both places, because millions of names are regularly purged between elections.

But The News found that between 400 and 1,000 registered voters have voted twice in at least one election, a federal offense punishable by up to five years in prison and a $10,000 fine.
Of the 46,000 registered in both states, 68% are Democrats, 12% are Republicans and 16% didn't claim a party.

Nearly 1,700 of those registered in both states requested that absentee ballots be mailed to their home in the other state, where they are also registered. But that doesn't raise red flags with officials in either place.

Is this law of the land? http://www.nydailynews.com/08-22-2004/front/story/224449p-192807c.html



With debate over the 2000 election still raging, thousands of people illegally register in both New York City and Florida, which could swing an election.

Some 46,000 New Yorkers are registered to vote in both the city and Florida, a shocking finding that exposes both states to potential abuses that could alter the outcome of elections, a Daily News investigation shows.
Registering in two places is illegal in both states, but the massive snowbird scandal goes undetected because election officials don't check rolls across state lines.

The finding is even more stunning given the pivotal role Florida played in the 2000 presidential election, when a margin there of 537 votes tipped a victory to George W. Bush.

Computer records analyzed by The News don't allow for an exact count of how many people vote in both places, because millions of names are regularly purged between elections.

But The News found that between 400 and 1,000 registered voters have voted twice in at least one election, a federal offense punishable by up to five years in prison and a $10,000 fine.
Of the 46,000 registered in both states, 68% are Democrats, 12% are Republicans and 16% didn't claim a party.

Nearly 1,700 of those registered in both states requested that absentee ballots be mailed to their home in the other state, where they are also registered. But that doesn't raise red flags with officials in either place.


Ya know....we should vote by mail and be required to mail our voter registration card in with our ballot. Our card being returned to us after the election and results have been tabulated. That way there would be much less chance to vote twice and all voters would be verified.

http://www.collincountygop.com/911.htm
Its in response to Micheal Moore, but considering Moore and Palast are on about the same intellectual level (anything to smear Bush)...

Florida Purge of Convicted Felons from Voter Rolls

Deceit 4



According to Fahrenheit, Bush cronies hired Data Base Technologies to purge Florida voters who might vote for Gore, and these potential voters were purged from the voting rolls on the basis of race. ("Second, make sure the chairman of your campaign is also the vote count woman. And that her state has hired a company that's gonna knock voters off the rolls who aren't likely to vote for you. You can usually tell 'em by the color of their skin.") As explained by the Palm Beach Post, Moore's suggestion is extremely incomplete, and on at least one fact, plainly false.

....

The overbreadth of the purge was well-known in Florida before the election. As a result, election officials in 20 of Florida's counties ignored the purge list entirely. In these counties, convicted felons were allowed to vote. Also according to the Post, thousands of felons were improperly allowed to vote in the 20 non-purging counties.

http://www.collincountygop.com/911.htm
Its in response to Micheal Moore, but considering Moore and Palast are on about the same intellectual level (anything to smear Bush)...
oh please
it cant be that hard to smear people playing bend the law to the breaking point

oh please
it cant be that hard to smear people playing bend the law to the breaking point
Palast and Moore will stop at very little to find ways to smear Bush. Even making people like Chavez seem good or making movies classified as documentaries but saying its just entertainment. They've devoted quite a bit of time in the last 4 years just finding ways, bending the truth to the breaking point (or just ignoring it) to advance the anti-Bush agenda.

Palast and Moore will stop at very little to find ways to smear Bush. Even making people like Chavez seem good or making movies classified as documentaries but saying its just entertainment. They've devoted quite a bit of time in the last 4 years just finding ways, bending the truth to the breaking point (or just ignoring it) to advance the anti-Bush agenda.

Moore is a funny fellow. He blames Columbine on guns....but blames 9-11 on Bush. By that reasoning Columbine should have been Clinton's fault. But that would not be right would it? ;)

Palast and Moore will stop at very little to find ways to smear Bush. Even making people like Chavez seem good or making movies classified as documentaries but saying its just entertainment. They've devoted quite a bit of time in the last 4 years just finding ways, bending the truth to the breaking point (or just ignoring it) to advance the anti-Bush agenda.

They are just anti-stupid-jerkoff-leaders-who-will-do-anything-they-can-to-put-a-buck-in-their-pocket-while-stepping-on-the-little-guy

Palast has no qualms with bringing scandals to light by any US leader or party. He doesnt like the dems, the reps, or the greens.

What do you say to having a national voting bank using social security numbers? Or perhaps a voting number, one per voter, based on an SS#. Pollsters could check for voting eligibility before a vote is cast. If the Pollster had to put in their own code to verify, perhaps cheating would be brought to a minimum.

Moore is a funny fellow. He blames Columbine on guns....but blames 9-11 on Bush. By that reasoning Columbine should have been Clinton's fault. But that would not be right would it? ;)

If Clinton had been handed a briefing entitled "Columbine students planning mass killing spree" and ignored it, I would say it would be right to blame him.

If Clinton had been handed a briefing entitled "Columbine students planning mass killing spree" and ignored it, I would say it would be right to blame him.

Well...he ignored the embassy security reports. He ignored the USS Cole information. Lots of things were ignored and by treating them as criminal acts and not acts of war he all but encouraged things to esculate.

Druthulhu, what if Clinton was handed a warning saying that some students would try to kill others? What would he do?

Druthulhu, what if Clinton was handed a warning saying that some students would try to kill others? What would he do?

I don't know, ask him.

Well...he ignored the embassy security reports. He ignored the USS Cole information. Lots of things were ignored and by treating them as criminal acts and not acts of war he all but encouraged things to esculate.

Show me.

With all of the focus on Florida as a haven for Republican voting misdeeds, how can this woman be so blantantly obvious? I thought the Rebublicans were craftier than this. Perhaps they feel that since the 2000 election was never contested (even though there is irrefutable proof that over 40,000 black Democrats were illegally stricken from the voting roles) they are all powerful and can fix every election from now on.


Voting:

Only citizens may vote.

Citizens must register to vote within a certain time period before the vote.

Citizens must prove citizenship via a passport at the polling place.

No absentee ballots allowed, only personal inspection of passport will allow a person to vote.

If a citizen is on government duty (military/etc) the gov must poll them personally (as in the US).

Ballots are marked by voters during the voting period.

Ballots are counted according to "the rules" and are set aside in storage.

The voting results are announced and finalized.

Any "irregularities" are dealt with by public airing of the issues involved.

Those responsible for "irregularities" are tortured to death (too harsh..?)

The election is over and we get on with life, thank you very much.

The point is: what detail was given to Bush? He had so many warnings; how could he determine that planes would be flown into the twin towers and the pentagon?

Show me.

Show you? It is well known that the embassies had been threatened before they were hit. Same with US Navy ships refueling in Yemen. Warnings were given and ignored. NOW such warnings result in embassy closings and other precautions, but that was not the case before.

Show you? It is well known that the embassies had been threatened before they were hit. Same with US Navy ships refueling in Yemen. Warnings were given and ignored. NOW such warnings result in embassy closings and other precautions, but that was not the case before.

If it's "well known" then it should be easy for you to cite an objective reference.

Druthulhu must be busy trying to show me an objective reference to how Bush could have known that terrorists would fly planes into the Twin Towers and the Pentagon. Since the 9/11 commission could not find the connection, I wonder how he/she will.

Palast and Moore will stop at very little to find ways to smear Bush. Even making people like Chavez seem good or making movies (snip)
And what exactly is wrong with Chavez?

If it's "well known" then it should be easy for you to cite an objective reference.

Yemen was on the known sponsor of terrorists list. The US Navy was ordered to refuel ships there as a form of "reward" to the government of Yemen and draw them out and into the mainstream. Military officials were worried about security there and made their concerns known many times. They were ignored.

The same as with the Kobar towers....I was there for that one.

Say what you will, Clinton ignored a LOT of things going on because he was worried about his "legacy." He had a lot of reasons to worry about it.

And what exactly is wrong with Chavez?
He's run Venuzuela & its economy into the ground, and before the usual blame on the "right wing thugs", Chavez admitted to provoking the protests.

Edit : Not to mention he's slowly made Venezuela more autocratic.

Yemen was on the known sponsor of terrorists list. The US Navy was ordered to refuel ships there as a form of "reward" to the government of Yemen and draw them out and into the mainstream. Military officials were worried about security there and made their concerns known many times. They were ignored.

The same as with the Kobar towers....I was there for that one.

Say what you will, Clinton ignored a LOT of things going on because he was worried about his "legacy." He had a lot of reasons to worry about it.

Couldn't find an objective account on the internet, could ya? ;)

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/02_11_02_lucy.html

That's a lot of the indications of 9/11. Most are true probably, some may not be. Do we all forget that bin Laden declared war with us?

http://www.bushlies.net/pages/1/index.htm

Interesting stuff.

He's a true hero on the war on terrorism, let me tell you.

He's a true hero on the war on terrorism, let me tell you.
Since there was just a bit on objective sources here, couldn't you do better than "bushlies.com"?

Couldn't find an objective account on the internet, could ya? ;)

This is mostly just heresay because it lists no sources

http://bartcopnation.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=8&topic_id=479&mesg_id=479&page=

You could probably google the stuff though and see if it's true.

Couldn't find an objective account on the internet, could ya? ;)

Did not look....I was in a position to SEE the things that were going on in the middle east at the time and saw the warnings going out.

However, some resigned over the warnings being ignored....

http://www.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/10/25/cole.hearing/

Did anyone hear about Cheney's statement that the November elections may have to be postponed due to terrorist threats?

And, I used to think the president didn't have any power... I forgot how much power someone can have in a state of perpetual war.

Did not look....I was in a position to SEE the things that were going on in the middle east at the time and saw the warnings going out.

Fair enough. If being there is the criteria then I hope you believe me when I say that the current intifada was an October Surpirse orchestrated by Ariel Sharon and zionist terrorists.

Not that it has any baring on this topic, but I just wanted to repeat that. I was there, I heard the predictions from a person with right-wing extremist connections, over a month before it started.

So it's true. because I have first hand knowledge.

However, some resigned over the warnings being ignored....

http://www.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/10/25/cole.hearing/

Thanks. :) seriously. I will read this tonight. I don't expect there will be any mention of a "Terrorists planning broadside boat bombing" briefing it it, though.

Since there was just a bit on objective sources here, couldn't you do better than "bushlies.com"?

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/focus/story/0,6903,1243079,00.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/18/politics/18SEPT.html?ex=1094011200&en=632dd17fe6c7a748&ei=5070&hp=&pagewanted=all&position=

Fair enough. If being there is the criteria then I hope you believe me when I say that the current intifada was an October Surpirse orchestrated by Ariel Sharon and zionist terrorists.

Not that it has any baring on this topic, but I just wanted to repeat that. I was there, I heard the predictions from a person with right-wing extremist connections, over a month before it started.

So it's true. because I have first hand knowledge.



Thanks. :) seriously. I will read this tonight. I don't expect there will be any mention of a "Terrorists planning broadside boat bombing" briefing it it, though.

No, there is no SPECIFIC wording on the actual attack, but there were warnings galore about Yemen for many years and refueling ships there was just asking that they be attacked. Many things that we see first hand become true in time. The Kobar towers were not unique. We were told we were a target for weeks before that happened....yet nothing was done that could have prevented my friends from being killed until AFTER the attack.

Sometimes thats what it takes. Another example....

When I was stationed in the UK we used to get a lot of ice in front of the hanger we worked out of. I personally told my commander that someone would get hurt and we needed to put some salt out there to get rid of the ice. He told me that doing so would cause corrosion on the aircraft so we could not do it. The next day one of my co-workers was carrying a "Y" stand out to one of the trucks and slipped on the ice. The "Y" stand he was carrying fell onto his knee, shattering it. After the ambulance left what did I see? The commander putting salt out to get rid of the ice..... :rolleyes:

He's run Venuzuela & its economy into the ground, and before the usual blame on the "right wing thugs", Chavez admitted to provoking the protests.

Edit : Not to mention he's slowly made Venezuela more autocratic.
Yeah, like he was the only one to run the economy to the ground. All I've read in the papers tell me he's made some controversial choices and was fought tooth and nail by those who held power before he came in.

They even attempted a US-backed coup to kill him. Furthermore, he must not do so bad a job since he won hads-down the latest referendum. Just because someone isn't doing the same as the US government doesn't make him doesn't mean they are doing a bad job.

Yeah, like he was the only one to run the economy to the ground. All I've read in the papers tell me he's made some controversial choices and was fought tooth and nail by those who held power before he came in.

They even attempted a US-backed coup to kill him. Furthermore, he must not do so bad a job since he won hads-down the latest referendum. Just because someone isn't doing the same as the US government doesn't make him doesn't mean they are doing a bad job.

As long as he abides by their constitution then there is no problem.

No, there is no SPECIFIC wording on the actual attack, but there were warnings galore about Yemen for many years and refueling ships there was just asking that they be attacked. Many things that we see first hand become true in time. The Kobar towers were not unique. We were told we were a target for weeks before that happened....yet nothing was done that could have prevented my friends from being killed until AFTER the attack.

Sometimes thats what it takes. Another example....

When I was stationed in the UK we used to get a lot of ice in front of the hanger we worked out of. I personally told my commander that someone would get hurt and we needed to put some salt out there to get rid of the ice. He told me that doing so would cause corrosion on the aircraft so we could not do it. The next day one of my co-workers was carrying a "Y" stand out to one of the trucks and slipped on the ice. The "Y" stand he was carrying fell onto his knee, shattering it. After the ambulance left what did I see? The commander putting salt out to get rid of the ice..... :rolleyes:

That totally sucks. I hope you had the guts to report this to his higher-ups.

And that's also a good example of a specific warning that went ignored. As opposed to a general warning that terrorists might very well attack or that security needs to be upgraded. I agree that powers have a tendency not to heed warnings of their subordinates, and I would certainly hope that if the fools in the F.B.I. had brought reports of foreigners learning to fly but not to take off and land to Bush's attention, even he would have done what should have been done, when coupled with the "Terrorists using airplanes..." report that he did or should have see/n.

But you were told that Kobar would be a target, and nothing was done? Do you blame your commanders, or, whose job was it to act on those warnings? Did it go all the way up to the President's desk for considerations? Someone in his cabinet or an advisor of his?

As for the Cole, the link you provided seems to describe where the responsibility broke down. I haven't finished it ... it's bigger than most (though not too big) and I gtg soon. But, does it say that Clinton himself heard the warnings and shelved them?

Well I know I live in florida and I voted for Bush.

That totally sucks. I hope you had the guts to report this to his higher-ups.

And that's also a good example of a specific warning that went ignored. As opposed to a general warning that terrorists might very well attack or that security needs to be upgraded. I agree that powers have a tendency not to heed warnings of their subordinates, and I would certainly hope that if the fools in the F.B.I. had brought reports of foreigners learning to fly but not to take off and land to Bush's attention, even he would have done what should have been done, when coupled with the "Terrorists using airplanes..." report that he did or should have see/n.

But you were told that Kobar would be a target, and nothing was done? Do you blame your commanders, or, whose job was it to act on those warnings? Did it go all the way up to the President's desk for considerations? Someone in his cabinet or an advisor of his?

As for the Cole, the link you provided seems to describe where the responsibility broke down. I haven't finished it ... it's bigger than most (though not too big) and I gtg soon. But, does it say that Clinton himself heard the warnings and shelved them?

Actually, there WAS an FBI agent that reported that foreign men were taking flight lessons but was ignored. Such things happen all the time.

In Kobar, we were told that we were a logical target. Our commanders knew it and that knowledge went all the way to the Sec. of Defense. Do I have any knowledge that Clinton himself knew about it? No, but where does the buck stop? Rumsfeld was called on to resign over the prisoner mistreatment. 19 Americans died at Kobar but there were no calls for resignations over that as I recall.

Actually, there WAS an FBI agent that reported that foreign men were taking flight lessons but was ignored. Such things happen all the time.

Yup. My point is, in Bush's favour it didn't get to his attention, somebody else dropped the ball.

In Kobar, we were told that we were a logical target. Our commanders knew it and that knowledge went all the way to the Sec. of Defense. Do I have any knowledge that Clinton himself knew about it? No, but where does the buck stop? Rumsfeld was called on to resign over the prisoner mistreatment. 19 Americans died at Kobar but there were no calls for resignations over that as I recall.

And Rumsfeld didn't resign. And if Clinton's Sec. of Defence was also called upon to resign, then so? And if not, the Clinton's opponents dropped the ball.

And there are so many logical targets. Failure to have focused attention on the one of them that did get attacked is not the same as failing to heed specific warnings.

But like I said, it would be a lot more critical of Bush if that warning had gotten past the F.B.I. analysts.

Yup. My point is, in Bush's favour it didn't get to his attention, somebody else dropped the ball.



And Rumsfeld didn't resign. And if Clinton's Sec. of Defence was also called upon to resign, then so? And if not, the Clinton's opponents dropped the ball.

And there are so many logical targets. Failure to have focused attention on the one of them that did get attacked is not the same as failing to heed specific warnings.

But like I said, it would be a lot more critical of Bush if that warning had gotten past the F.B.I. analysts.

The difference with the USS Cole is that the Navy was very worried about having to refuel ships there. Their concerns were well known throughout the military, and I was in the USAF. To think that those fears were not made to the Sec. of Defense or did not come up in the daily situation briefings is a real stretch. Clinton was in the middle of the Monica garbage at that time. He frequently put personal things ahead of the country.

LOL yeah Clinton was the one putting all teh focus on the Lewinsky debaucle. good one.

LOL yeah Clinton was the one putting all teh focus on the Lewinsky debaucle. good one.

Well...he got himself into that. Figuratively AND literally...;)

Well, they are in the same party. If McCain came out in support of another candidate, life would get difficult for him in the Republican party.
Have you seen the CNN interview of McCain. It was hysterical! He had the demeanor and facial expression of a man with serious reflux acid as he mouthed his script.

The difference with the USS Cole is that the Navy was very worried about having to refuel ships there. Their concerns were well known throughout the military, and I was in the USAF. To think that those fears were not made to the Sec. of Defense or did not come up in the daily situation briefings is a real stretch. Clinton was in the middle of the Monica garbage at that time. He frequently put personal things ahead of the country.

Way to blame him for the distraction his political adversaries imposed upon him.

Way to blame him for the distraction his political adversaries imposed upon him.

Really? Did they force him to not have sex with that woman? ;)

Way to blame him for the distraction his political adversaries imposed upon him.
dont try reason, biff is immune

dont try reason, biff is immune

You are ignoring me remember? ;)

Really? Did they force him to not have sex with that woman? ;)

Nope. And nobody forced any coke up W's nose either. ;)

Proof about Bush's cocaine use? Do you have any?

Nope. And nobody forced any coke up W's nose either. ;)

He wasn't president at the time. When a sitting president does something as STUPID as Clinton did, he does the whole country a disservice. Had he NOT gotten himself into that mess he might have been able to focus more on things that were more important to the country at large.

If Bush was to hold a televised press meeting and do a line of coke on camera...he would deserve to be run out of the country. What Clinton forgot is that the president HAS to put his life on hold for the duration of his term. The president works 7 days a week. He really does not get a day off for the entire time he is in office. Vacations are still working vacations.

BIll wasnt getting blown on tv either. Its the Republicans that could find nothing on Clinton that had to resort to something completley personal to him and his family to try to slander Clinton.

How did Clinton do a disservice to the country? Because he took a little time off to get his rocks off? If thats all you can come up with to complain about in a President then that must be a damn good president. It's a petty argument at best to worry about a president getting a blowjob.

So when Bush was on the Fishing channel talking about fishing, that was a working vacation? Gimme a break. And Bush has taken more "working vacations" than any president in history. And given less press conferences as well. Nice way to not let the public know about all teh great things you aren't doing in office duh... George.

Proof about Bush's cocaine use? Do you have any?
the fact he refuses to deny it should be more than enough

the fact he refuses to deny it should be more than enough
The lack of evidence dosen't equal proof of the opposite.

Edit : Most of the time

The lack of evidence dosen't equal proof of the opposite.

Edit : Most of the time
wrong situation...


if some one asked you had you ever used drugs, and you definately havn't, would you refuse to answer them?

Yeah, like he was the only one to run the economy to the ground. All I've read in the papers tell me he's made some controversial choices and was fought tooth and nail by those who held power before he came in.

They even attempted a US-backed coup to kill him. Furthermore, he must not do so bad a job since he won hads-down the latest referendum. Just because someone isn't doing the same as the US government doesn't make him doesn't mean they are doing a bad job.
Ok. Here's what Chavez has managed in the past four years :

GDP Per head has shrunk by $8,48
GDP has averaged -3.0125% growth per year
Public debt increased to 38.6%, up from 27.01%, a 43% increase
Labor costs have gone down $1.11
while unemployment has gone up from 13.9% to 21%
and inflation has averaged 20.56% per year.

Its easy to win referendums, too, when you spend (oil) money that could be spent on improving infrastructure, education, or other things that would help a developing country in the future on handouts that are essentially bribing the electorate.

wrong situation...


if some one asked you had you ever used drugs, and you definately havn't, would you refuse to answer them?
No, I wouldn't. That being said, why would Bush have a qualm with saying that he hadn't even if he had? (According to most of you libs, he's a liar already...)

No, I wouldn't. That being said, why would Bush have a qualm with saying that he hadn't even if he had? (According to most of you libs, he's a liar already...)

Because he has and he's afraid that if he lies somebody will eventually prove it.

Because he has and he's afriad that somebody will eventually prove it.
If someone could prove it, I'd imagine it would have been done already, given the massive resources available to anti-Bush groups everywhere. I mean I guess its an option, but I don't think that that is any more convincing then someone saying Bush simply dosen't want to focus on what he did 30 years ago.