NationStates Jolt Archive

Do you think that it's okay for the rich to pull strings to get their kids out of being drafted? Why should the rich have more rights than the poor?

STILL UNREPORTED: THE PAY-OFF IN BUSH AIR GUARD FIX
Saturday, August 28, 2004

by Greg Palast

In 1968, former Congressman George Herbert Walker Bush of Texas, fresh
from voting to send other men's sons to Vietnam, enlisted his own son
in a very special affirmative action program, the 'champagne' unit of
the Texas Air National Guard. There, Top Gun fighter pilot George Dubya
was assigned the dangerous job of protecting Houston from Vietcong air
attack.

This week, former Lt. Governor Ben Barnes of Texas 'fessed up to
pulling the strings to keep Little George out of the jungle. "I got a young
man named George W. Bush into the Texas Air Guard - and I'm ashamed."

THE PAY-OFF

That's far from the end of the story. In 1994, George W. Bush was
elected governor of Texas by a whisker. By that time, Barnes had left
office to become a big time corporate lobbyist. To an influence peddler like
Barnes, having damning information on a sitting governor is worth its
weight in gold – or, more precisely, there’s a value in keeping the info
secret.

Barnes appears to have made lucrative use of his knowledge of our
President's slithering out of the draft as a lever to protect a
multi-billion dollar contract for a client. That's the information in a
confidential letter buried deep in the files of the US Justice Department that
fell into my hands at BBC television.

Here's what happened. Just after Bush's election, Barnes' client GTech
Corp., due to allegations of corruption, was about to lose its license
to print money: its contract to run the Texas state lottery. Barnes,
says the Justice Department document, made a call to the newly elected
governor's office and saved GTech's state contract.

The letter said, "Governor Bush ... made a deal with Ben Barnes not to
rebid [the GTech lottery contract] because Barnes could confirm that
Bush had lied during the '94 campaign."

In that close race, Bush denied the fix was in to keep him out of 'Nam,
and the US media stopped asking questions. What did the victorious
Governor Bush's office do for Barnes? According to the tipster, "Barnes
agreed never to confirm the story [of the draft dodging] and the governor
talked to the chair of the lottery two days later and she then agreed
to support letting GTech keep the contract without a bid."

And so it came to pass that the governor's commission reversed itself
and gave GTech the billion dollar deal without a bid.

The happy client paid Barnes, the keeper of Governor Bush's secret, a
fee of over $23 million. Barnes, not surprisingly, denies that Bush took
care of his client in return for Barnes' silence. However, confronted
with the evidence, the former Lt. Governor now admits to helping the
young George stay out of Vietnam.

Take a look at the letter yourself - with information we confirmed with
other sources - at
http://www.gregpalast.com/ulf/documents/draftdodgeblanked.jpg).

Frankly, I don't care if President Bush cowered and ran from Vietnam.
I sure as hell didn't volunteer ... but then, my daddy didn't send
someone else in my place. And I don't march around aircraft carriers with
parachute clips around my gonads talking about war and sacrifice.

More important, I haven't made any pay-offs to silence those who could
change my image from war hero to war zero.

"TIME WARNER WON'T LET US AIR THIS"

By the way: I first reported this story in 1999, including the evidence
of payback, in The Observer of London. US media closed its eyes. Then I
put the story on British television last year in the one-hour report,
"Bush Family Fortunes." American networks turned down BBC's offer to run
it in the USA. "Wonderful film," one executive told me, "but Time
Warner is not going to let us put this on the air." However, US networks
will take cash for advertisements calling Kerry a Vietnam coward.

A bit too damning for you Bushites to comment on? Greg Palast is one of the best investigative journalists of our time.

No, all their comebacks are that John Kerry and John McCain are war traitors and that Bush is a real war hero who stood up for the US of A in Alabama.

I think conscription is evil and support anyone, rich or poor, from getting out of compulsory service.

Still, flying a mach 2 deathtrap is hardly cowardly.

Bush should have served in Vietnam. Than he might be dead!

I think conscription is evil and support anyone, rich or poor, from getting out of compulsory service.

Still, flying a mach 2 deathtrap is hardly cowardly.


I'd have to agree with you there to a point. But while the draft is the law of the land I support sending the rich to die first since they are the ones who get the most out of war. The poor obviously aren't getting much out of living in a "free capitalistic society" if they are poor. The rich have mroe to fight for.

to tell you the truth i dont give a damn what anyone did years ago. i think that we all need to get over it. the demacrats are hiding behind kerry's service because his past political veiws have been way more liberal than the average lefty. what i care about is the future not the past and i trust that bush will keep my country and my family safe.

to tell you the truth i dont give a damn what anyone did years ago. i think that we all need to get over it. the demacrats are hiding behind kerry's service because his past political veiws have been way more liberal than the average lefty. what i care about is the future not the past and i trust that bush will keep my country and my family safe.

Yeah, it's really convenient to say "let's forget the past" when Bush has such a shady one. Good for you! Live and let live. Bygons and such.

to tell you the truth i dont give a damn what anyone did years ago. i think that we all need to get over it. the demacrats are hiding behind kerry's service because his past political veiws have been way more liberal than the average lefty. what i care about is the future not the past and i trust that bush will keep my country and my family safe.
Then you are worng, because they will not be safe as long as the majority of the world dislikes us, and the rest hates us. Although it was indeed "years ago" that bush avoid vietnam service, the whole fabricated war in Iraq was based on thing Saddam did years ago. Oh, and the WMD which are . . .missing.

the demacrats are hiding behind kerry's service because his past political veiws have been way more liberal than the average lefty. what i care about is the future not the past and i trust that bush will keep my country and my family safe.

Whoah. Do some research there, buddy.

We all know Bush is a liar, and we all know he is corrupt and evil, but I don't think any one should have gone to Vietnam or Irak for that matter, those are and were useless wars just to keep the weapons economy going. Civilians killed? Yeah millions but who cares when the money keeps rolling in their pockets, (not on the average USA citizen, because there are millions of poor and homeless veterans roaming the city streets of your "great country" Bush should go immediately before he keeps destroying the world for his stupid oil and greed.

to tell you the truth i dont give a damn what anyone did years ago. i think that we all need to get over it. the demacrats are hiding behind kerry's service because his past political veiws have been way more liberal than the average lefty. what i care about is the future not the past and i trust that bush will keep my country and my family safe.

And I'm so sure that you said the same about Clinton.

The only reason that Kerry made such a big deal over his service is because he knew full well what kind of scumbags he was up against and that he needed to get his story out first. Plus it contrasts nicely with our craven coward of a President.

And I like the future line, if only because Bush accused Kerry of living in the past because he doesn't think a missle defense system is more important than anti-terrorism.

kix, that is why you live in Orange alerts, so your family is safe, poor you, USA is way less safer that it was before. welcome to the culture of fear

the demacrats are hiding behind kerry's service because his past political veiws have been way more liberal than the average lefty

Well... Perhaps I disagree slightly. But I think it's shameful how true liberalism has died out in our government. What do we have... Ted Kennedy? Howard Dean? When was the last time real liberal ran for president? It's ridiculous. You don't even hear about them anymore. Damn my party! Heh.

I don't think military service should be the deciding factor in any election. While it is tradition to have the President be a military man, it is a tradition that has been ignored enough by both Parties that it is more of just something we acknowledge. Reagon never saw combat, Clinton never saw combat.

THough I do find it interesting that the Kerry Camp's Mantra is "I FOUGH IN VIETNAM PLEASE VOTE FOR ME! *talks about more 'broad themes'*" but when people finally come out and challenge his mantra, the entirity of the left goes "THIS IS A RACE ON THE ISSUES NOT MILITARY SERVICE! *talks about some more 'broad themes'* "

Overall we should focus on what the candidates say, do, their record, and how fit we think they are for office, than worrying about when Kery called -all- american soldiers war criminals that raped babies daily, or when Bush was teething his way through cocaine binges while defending the great state of Alabama! Go bama go!


Over all... military record isn't important one bit in an election like this.

Wasn't Bush the one in power when 9/11 happened? Isn't the Bush administration sending your relatives to die in some desert on the other side of the world? Isn't Bush the cause for the massive deficit and unemployment? Isn't Bush helping the gap between the Rich and the Poor grow wider? Lowering the standards for levels of toxic heavy metals in drinking water? Lowering pollution standards (they don't only affect the trees the affect everything on the planet, including you)? Safe my ass. Bush is destroying this country. I'm not saying Kerry would be much better, but for the love of god, anyone but George Walker Bush this Nov.

Also about the Air National Guard thing. Seeing that he volunteered for it and didn't show up, it doesn't seem like he could be trusted to do something of any importance again. If you volunteer to do something you should do it you shouldn't go missing and get shitfaced. And seeing that he has never fought in a war, does he have any athourity to send other people's children to face war considering he himslef has never experienced it's terrors?

I support mandatory military service for the US. If more people in congress and the senate had children in the military they would think twice about sending the US Army into any country the president wants to.

"THIS IS A RACE ON THE ISSUES NOT MILITARY SERVICE!

But... That's not what he's doing at all. If he thought that, then he would just ignore the false statements by the members of Swift Boat etc. Instead, he's fighting it like t3h shiz. And Bush is like, "I didn't do it!" And Kerry's like, "You did it, yes you did!"

And yay it's like 4th grade all over again! Well, Bush was already at that level. But Kerry... Alas.

Seriously, it's like, get onto the real issues you babies.

i liked Dennis Kuchinich

Dean / Kucinich '04!!!

Vietnam is a dead issue in the US....except for John Kerry. He brought it up against the advice of his handlers. Then when veterans who resented what he said about them when he returned spoke out against him, he complains. :rolleyes:

Go figure. However, when is Kerry going to tell us what he did as a Senator? Oh thats right, he did nothing....for 20 years. ;)

Go figure. However, when is Kerry going to tell us what he did as a Senator? Oh thats right, he did nothing....for 20 years. ;)

It's easy enough to check his senate record. And guess what? HE'S A LIBERAL! For those of you who doubt that, check it yourself. For the votes Kerry even showed up for, he voted liberal about 93% of the time. Think I'm nuts? Just do a search for Kerry's voting history...

As to George W and the missing WMD's...Bush himself has admitted the intelligence reports didn't give an accurate representation. But come on, people! Whether Bush's reasoning for attacking Iraq was flawed or not, as far as I'm concerned, they found the WMD's when they pulled Saddam out of that hole he was hiding in. Saddam was a monster engaging in genocide of the Kurds, and murdering his own people by the thousands, even children. He and his sons needed to be removed.

Maybe Dubya isn't the perfect president, but I'd damn sure prefer him over a guy who blows his own horn on his military "heroism", then whines coz fellow vets say otherwise.

it always amazes me how liberals bash Bush for his admittedly shady military records, yet still regard Clinton as one of the greatest men ever. But where was Clinton during Vietnam? Why, he certainly wasn't fighting there, and he wasn't even doing BS work in Alabama...he was HIDING IN CANADA.

it always amazes me how liberals bash Bush for his admittedly shady military records, yet still regard Clinton as one of the greatest men ever. But where was Clinton during Vietnam? Why, he certainly wasn't fighting there, and he wasn't even doing BS work in Alabama...he was HIDING IN CANADA.
Difference is Clinton admits it unlike Bush. You see some of us would rather our President admit his faults. Bush lied to public and UN when they(his administration) said they had "proof" and never fessed up that they were wrong.
Saddam, wasn't a WMD, he was a Person of Mass Importance, difference.

Overall we should focus on what the candidates say, do, their record, and how fit we think they are for office, than worrying about when Kery called -all- american soldiers war criminals that raped babies daily, or when Bush was teething his way through cocaine binges while defending the great state of Alabama! Go bama go!

Keerry didn't call all american soldiers war criminals, but he admitted that many vetererns say and admit today that many of their fellows soldiers were back then. Another example is Abu Grabib(spelled wrong lol) Prison and the scandal of that torture.
Reporting what others say isn't saying you are yourself lol, that is a falacy.
Yeahg, but he was using Cociane so much he couldn't even show up for blood test/dental appointments.

Castro/Chavez '04.

But the thing is that the military service issue is as -dead- as Chemical Ali.

If you want to bash Bush on his record, do it! I encourage it. (is a conservative) I want to get this election debate into real issues not just speeches that are simply compilations of slogans and jabs at the other candidate personally.

But if you are gonna go after his military record? It's just ridiculous. Now John Kerry starts bashing bush on his record? It's ridiculous.

Somewhere in America...

American Voter: What ever happened to John Kerry's positive campaign?

Somewhere in the bowels of the DNC...

Edwards: "Are you sure you want to release these smear books about the Swift Vets people?"
Kerry: "Positive."

Do you think that it's okay for the rich to pull strings to get their kids out of being drafted? Why should the rich have more rights than the poor?

Oh I dunno ... if there was a draft and a war going on and I had the money to keep my kid out of it, I'd do it.

I don't know any parent who wouldn't.

Oh I dunno ... if there was a draft and a war going on and I had the money to keep my kid out of it, I'd do it.

I don't know any parent who wouldn't.

good point... I cant argue with that... damn you!

good point... I cant argue with that... damn you!

lol! Well ... lemme tack a rider onto that statement ...

If I did use my power and money to keep my kid out of war, I would not encourage him/her to run for President - a position where he/she might have to make decisions that send people to war.

George W. Bush

EDUCATION AND EXPERIENCE:
LAW ENFORCEMENT:

I was arrested in Kennebunkport, Maine, in 1976 for driving under the influence of alcohol. I pled guilty, paid a fine, and had my driver's license suspended for 30 days. My Texas driving record has been "lost" and is not available.

MILITARY:

I joined the Texas Air National Guard and went AWOL. I refused to take a drug test or answer any questions about my drug use. By joining the Texas Air National Guard, I was able to avoid combat duty in Vietnam.

COLLEGE:

I graduated from Yale University with a low C average.
I was a cheerleader.

PAST WORK EXPERIENCE:

I ran for U.S. Congress and lost.
I began my career in the oil business in Midland, Texas, in 1975.
I bought an oil company, but couldn't find any oil in Texas.
The company went bankrupt shortly after I sold all my stock.
I bought the Texas Rangers baseball team in a sweetheart deal that took land using taxpayer money.
With the help of my father and our right-wing friends in the oil industry (including Enron CEO Ken Lay), I was elected governor of Texas.

ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS GOVERNOR OF TEXAS:

I changed Texas pollution laws to favor power and oil companies, making Texas the most polluted state in the Union.
During my tenure, Houston replaced Los Angeles as the most smog-ridden city in America.
I cut taxes and bankrupted the Texas treasury to the tune of billions in borrowed money.
I set the record for the most executions by any governor in American history.
With the help of my brother, the governor of Florida, and my father's appointments to the Supreme Court, I became President after losing by over 500,000 votes.

ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS PRESIDENT:

I am the first President in U.S. history to enter office with a criminal record.
I invaded and occupied two countries at a continuing cost of over one billion dollars per week.
I spent the U.S. surplus and effectively bankrupted th! e U.S. Treasury.
I shattered the record for the largest annual deficit in U.S. history.
I set an economic record for most private bankruptcies filed in any 12-month period.
I set the all-time record for most foreclosures in a 12-month period.
I'm proud that the members of my cabinet are the richest of any administration in U.S. history.
My "poorest millionaire," Condoleeza Rice, has a Chevron oil tanker named after her.
I set the record for most campaign fund-raising trips by a U.S. President.
I am the all-time U.S. and world record-holder for receiving the most corporate campaign donations.
My largest lifetime campaign contributor, and one of my best friends, Kenneth Lay, presided over the largest corporate bankruptcy fraud in U.S. History, Enron.
My political party used Enron private jets and corporate attorneys to assure my success with the U.S. Supreme Court during my election decision.
I have protected my friends at Enron and Halliburton against investigation or prosecution.
More time and money was spent investigating the Monica Lewinsky affair than has been spent investigating one of the biggest corporate rip-offs in history.
I presided over the biggest energy crisis in U.S. history and refused to intervene when corruption involving the oil industry was revealed.
I presided over the highest gasoline prices in U.S. history.
I changed the U.S. policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded government contracts.
I appointed more convicted criminals to administration than any President in U.S. history.
I created the Ministry of Homeland Security, the largest bureaucracy in the history of the United States government.
I've broken more international treaties than any President in U.S. history.
I am the first President in U.S. history to have the United Nations remove the U.S. from the Human Rights Commission.
I withdrew the U.S. from the World Court of Law.
I refused to allow inspectors access to U.S. "prisoners of war" detainees and thereby have refused to abide by the Geneva Convention.
I am the first President in history to refuse United Nations election inspectors (during the 2002 U.S. election).
I set the record for fewest number of press conferences of any President since the advent of television.
I set the all-time record for most days on vacation in any one-year period.
After taking off the entire month of August, I presided over the worst security failure in U.S. history.
I garnered the most sympathy for the U.S. after the World Trade Center attacks and less than a year later made the U.S. the most hated country in the world, the largest failure of diplomacy in world history.
I have set the all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously protest me in public venues (15 million people), shattering the record for protest against any person in the history of mankind.
I am the first President in U.S. history to order an unprovoked, pre-emptive attack and the military occupation of a sovereign nation. I did so against the will of the United Nations, the majority of U.S. citizens, and the world community.
I have cut health care benefits for war veterans and support a cut in duty benefits for active duty troops and their families -- in war time.
In my State of the Union Address, I lied about our reasons for attacking Iraq, then blamed the lies on our British friends.
I am the first President in history to have a majority of Europeans (71%) view my presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and security.
I am supporting development of a nuclear "Tactical Bunker Buster," a WMD.
I have so far failed to fulfill my pledge to bring Osama Bin Laden to justice.

RECORDS AND REFERENCES:

All records of my tenure as governor of Texas are now in my father's library, sealed and unavailable for public view.
All records of SEC investigations into my insider trading and my ! bankrupt companies are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.
All records or minutes from meetings that I, or my Vice-President, attended regarding public energy policy are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public

it always amazes me how liberals bash Bush for his admittedly shady military records, yet still regard Clinton as one of the greatest men ever. But where was Clinton during Vietnam? Why, he certainly wasn't fighting there, and he wasn't even doing BS work in Alabama...he was HIDING IN CANADA.
and clinton wasnt a little pussy about it, clinton was like i dodged the draft bitch and i smoked some weed (insert clintonism bullshit)

bush is like i did not dodge the draft by pullingh strings to get in the national guard, i refuse to answer whether or not i did cocaine, i drank a little, but i gave that up. bush is full of lies and bullshit, so is clinton but at least he will tell you the truth instead of pretending it didnt happen even after you shove it in his face

and clinton wasnt a little pussy about it, clinton was like i dodged the draft bitch and i smoked some weed (insert clintonism bullshit)

bush is like i did not dodge the draft by pullingh strings to get in the national guard, i refuse to answer whether or not i did cocaine, i drank a little, but i gave that up. bush is full of lies and bullshit, so is clinton but at least he will tell you the truth instead of pretending it didnt happen even after you shove it in his face

"I did not have sex with that woman."

"It all depends on what your definition of is is."

Yeah....Clinton will tell you how it is alright. :rolleyes:

"I did not have sex with that woman."

"It all depends on what your definition of is is."

Yeah....Clinton will tell you how it is alright. :rolleyes:


Bush: I committed a felony

Clinton:I got my rocks off

And don't even pull that perjury junk, like it or not he was acquitted so you cannot say he is guilty

Bush never went to trial.

Bush never went to trial.

Nor has he, or is he likely to be impeached either.....;)

Nor has he, or is he likely to be impeached either.....;)


i just hope he doesn't get reelected
thats what is important

i just hope he doesn't get reelected
thats what is important

I think he will be....Kerry has no agenda and no real ideas that are catching on.

Vietnam? WHY would he run on that nonsense? War hero? Hero's don't throw their medals away. The guy has some real problems.....the Republicans will make a lot of headway over those with the independents. I don't see kerry winning at all so it is a good thing he still has that Senate job.

I think he will be....Kerry has no agenda and no real ideas that are catching on.

Vietnam? WHY would he run on that nonsense? War hero? Hero's don't throw their medals away. The guy has some real problems.....the Republicans will make a lot of headway over those with the independents. I don't see kerry winning at all so it is a good thing he still has that Senate job.


Actually he has shared many ideas and I have never heard him once exclaim himself to be a war hero or even say "I was in Vietnam, vote for me".

You saying he has no platform over and over doesnt make it true but you can keep repeatign yrouself and ignoring evidence to the contrary all you want. It is a free country after all. Well so far. Although they may strt making free speech internet zones too.

REAL heros can throw their medals away and still be hero's... why? because they did what they did because they felt it was the right thing to do and don't define themselves by some medal that they were given.

Actually he has shared many ideas and I have never heard him once exclaim himself to be a war hero or even say "I was in Vietnam, vote for me".

You saying he has no platform over and over doesnt make it true but you can keep repeatign yrouself and ignoring evidence to the contrary all you want. It is a free country after all. Well so far. Although they may strt making free speech internet zones too.

REAL heros can throw their medals away and still be hero's... why? because they did what they did because they felt it was the right thing to do and don't define themselves by some medal that they were given.

Platform? All Kerry has said so far is that he will create some sort of national healthcare (how he will pay for it is a mystery) and he will give tax breaks to the middle class and small businesses. Yeah....he has NEVER voted for a tax cut but is well known for voting for tax increases.

He may not be defined for having 3 purple hearts.....but he reminds us so often that he won them that it is hard to distinguish just WHO he is.

Actually the point is moot. Even if he does win, the Republicans are not going to lose the house and Senate so he will get nothing done anyway.

Do you think that it's okay for the rich to pull strings to get their kids out of being drafted? Why should the rich have more rights than the poor?

The "rich" have more "rights" than the poor because they have more "power".

Is that "right"..?

In my opinion, yes.

You have more "rights" than your dog (though I see you more as a cat person).

Is that right..?

In my opinion, yes.

A lion has more "rights" than a gazelle.

Is that right..?

In my opinion, yes.

Trying to micromanage the world is a futile exercise, that only the young and the foolish attempt.

Carry on with your goal to remove the inequities of the world, as you see them.

That's your job, as one of the young and the foolish. It serves a truly good purpose.

It is similar to the purpose of the maggot.

To reduce the powerful, in the end, to something useful.

really? where does he often remind us of this? the media might but he doesn't... unless you can provide sources

and again he talks about a lot more than national healthcare - but because you dont pay attention to what he is saying, because he is not bush apparently and he is a *shudder* democrat*, this is lost on you completely.

I just hope that they can stay on teh issues during the debates because Iw ill be interested in seeing how Bush handles unscripted questions about anything at all.

I can hear it now-

Bush: "Um,, err, thats right Amurika is great and down with terrorism and I handles 9/11 like a real war hero."

"but Mr. President the questions was about the economy"

Bush: "Economies are well. Improvements in the econo.... Wait Dick I can't keep up and my earpeice is falling out"

The "rich" have more "rights" than the poor because they have more "power".

Is that "right"..?

In my opinion, yes.

You have more "rights" than your dog (though I see you more as a cat person).

Is that right..?

In my opinion, yes.

A lion has more "rights" than a gazelle.

Is that right..?

In my opinion, yes.

Trying to micromanage the world is a futile exercise, that only the young and the foolish attempt.

Carry on with your goal to remove the inequities of the world, as you see them.

That's your job, as one of the young and the foolish. It serves a truly good purpose.

It is similar to the purpose of the maggot.

To reduce the powerful, in the end, to something useful.


Trolling for donuts is the Republicans favorite passtime

my two cents...

the fact, that a person has seen a war doesn't make him/she a certifably sane president: hitler was wounded in WWI and he started WWII anyway.

i agree with Penultimia:
I support mandatory military service for the US. If more people in congress and the senate had children in the military they would think twice about sending the US Army into any country the president wants to.

in germany, we still have mandatory military (or civil) service. during the cold war, the concept was to have a standing defence force with great manpower and reservists who would have been forced back into the army. veeeeeeery useful in a nuclear war ^^,
but nevertheless -as long as you have a democratic system- it is much harder for the government to justify a war of aggression.

Ooh, let's try something different - a post that's relevant to the topic.

Here is a list of US Presidents and their military service (http://www.wordiq.com/definition/List_of_U.S._Presidents_by_military_service). Let's note a couple of these, please ...

Civil War: Abraham Lincoln. Military service: limited. served in the Black Hawk War, attaining the rank of captain, but was reprimanded twice and re-enlisted as a private.

WWII: Franklin D. Roosevelt. No regular military service, but appointed Assistant Secretary of the Navy (1913-1920) by President Wilson. Harry S. Truman: served in the Missouri National Guard (1905-1911; 1917); served with the 129th Field Artillery (1917-1919), attaining the rank of major.

Vietnam: John F. Kennedy, Lyndon B. Johnson, Richard Nixon all served in the Navy.

-----------
Would somebody please point out to me how each of these men's military service made them a better or worse president? Lincoln and Roosevelt may well have been our most successful war presidents, and they have the least amount of time in regular US military service. Truman, a National Guardsman, was surely willing and able to end WWII.

Lt. Commanders Johnson and Nixon can hardly be held up as paragons for their handling of Vietnam, but they were the highest-ranking soldiers in the 20th Century (except Ike, a Cold War president) to hold the Commander-in-Chief slot.

------------
I'm not fond of Bush, but this argument is wearing thin. Attacking either Bush or Kerry over military service as a prerequiste for the Presidency isn't historically, factually, or morally correct. Judge a man by his character, and you'll have a much better picture.

really? where does he often remind us of this? the media might but he doesn't... unless you can provide sources

and again he talks about a lot more than national healthcare - but because you dont pay attention to what he is saying, because he is not bush apparently and he is a *shudder* democrat*, this is lost on you completely.

I just hope that they can stay on teh issues during the debates because Iw ill be interested in seeing how Bush handles unscripted questions about anything at all.

I can hear it now-

Bush: "Um,, err, thats right Amurika is great and down with terrorism and I handles 9/11 like a real war hero."

"but Mr. President the questions was about the economy"

Bush: "Economies are well. Improvements in the econo.... Wait Dick I can't keep up and my earpeice is falling out"


Actually I heard Kerry talking about that the other day and he said that Bush has never lost a debate. So it will be interesting indeed. I watched Bush slaughter Gore in their debates. Bush put Gore into a "lock box" and put him out of sight.

Not even by his character, Nixon was a mean, ugly, nasty man. But overall he was a better president than Johnson who was a charming man.

Also the type of war fought in Vietnam and now in Iraq is very different. This is a time of a changing balance of power in the world, and we must adapt to play the sides off eachother, and stop delivering this moral homilies speaking about the "evils of american imperialism".

Once again, I must state my plan for america... Kill both Bush and Kerry and find new candidates. Thank you.

Ooh, let's try something different - a post that's relevant to the topic.

Here is a list of US Presidents and their military service (http://www.wordiq.com/definition/List_of_U.S._Presidents_by_military_service). Let's note a couple of these, please ...

Civil War: Abraham Lincoln. Military service: limited. served in the Black Hawk War, attaining the rank of captain, but was reprimanded twice and re-enlisted as a private.

WWII: Franklin D. Roosevelt. No regular military service, but appointed Assistant Secretary of the Navy (1913-1920) by President Wilson. Harry S. Truman: served in the Missouri National Guard (1905-1911; 1917); served with the 129th Field Artillery (1917-1919), attaining the rank of major.

Vietnam: John F. Kennedy, Lyndon B. Johnson, Richard Nixon all served in the Navy.

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Would somebody please point out to me how each of these men's military service made them a better or worse president? Lincoln and Roosevelt may well have been our most successful war presidents, and they have the least amount of time in regular US military service. Truman, a National Guardsman, was surely willing and able to end WWII.

Lt. Commanders Johnson and Nixon can hardly be held up as paragons for their handling of Vietnam, but they were the highest-ranking soldiers in the 20th Century (except Ike, a Cold War president) to hold the Commander-in-Chief slot.

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I'm not fond of Bush, but this argument is wearing thin. Attacking either Bush or Kerry over military service as a prerequiste for the Presidency isn't historically, factually, or morally correct. Judge a man by his character, and you'll have a much better picture.

I never said he was a worse president because he didnt serve in a war.

I am attacking him on his dishonesty about his service.

Bush should have served in Vietnam. Than he might be dead!

Regardless of your feeling for any person, wishing that they were in the military so they could have been killed is callous and misguided.