NationStates Jolt Archive

I figure I can get a good ten posts of reason in before the thread is hijacked by demogauges from either side, so what does everyone think of the game? Good? Bad? Inspired by Satan/Santa? Promotes or retards social development and interaction? Acting or escapism? A game for everyone or those elite few with Delusions of vampirism and a hefty sack of dice?

and this is probably like telling a rottweiler "no mauling" but try to keep it civil.

Ah, yes, but what version are you talking about? OD&D? D&D? 1st AD&D? 2nd AD&D? 3rd AD&D? 3.5?

DnD is a simly awesome game that allows you to be an epic hero. I've played many times with my friends. It is in no way demonic/satanic or evil. It's for everyone who wants to play. It's very fun.

BWA, lets just separate it into 3/.5 and all previous editions, what with the different ownership and whatnot

BWO, lets just separate it into 3/.5 and all previous editions, what with the different ownership and whatnot

Okay then: an amazing idea (rules-structured role-playing games) cooked up by Dave Arneson and Gary Gygax that was then shackled to a system which was inherently flawed from first principles and tied to a very limiting and uninventive default setting. Compared to other much more interesting RPGs which followed in its wake it should have been nothing more than a historical footnote.

Compared to other much more interesting RPGs which followed in its wake it should have been nothing more than a historical footnote.
Thanks to the high visibility of D&D, TSR has gotten a lot of people playing role-playing games, with their products routinely among the top sellers. As BWO pointed out, most of the better and longer-term RPers eventually move on to other, better systems. Anything that gets kids reading and activates their imagination is a good thing, IMHO.

TSR has failed the gaming community in other areas. When role-playing is attacked as Satanic or whatever the cause of the moment calls them, they sit back in their corporate chairs and let lesser players like Steve Jackson take the stage. As much money as we've made for that company, I'd think they'd want to step up to the plate a bit more.

As for me, I haven't played in years. I prefer Harnmaster for fantasy.

It's fun until every person wants to be a female, half elven rogue. Then it's just retarded.

Thanks to the high visibility of D&D, TSR has gotten a lot of people playing role-playing games, with their products routinely among the top sellers.

...

TSR has failed the gaming community in other areas.

TSR no longer owns D&D, they sold the rights and themselves to Wizards of the Coast about 5 years ago after WotC raked in ludicrous amounts of money on the back of Magic: The Gathering. WotC were then bought by HasBro.

TSR did make some concessions to the 'anti-satanist' lobby by renaming devils (or was it demons) in 2nd Edition advances, IIRC, but then the whole 'RPG games are just devil worship' malarky was just so laughable I'm sure that the company found it hard to take seriously. Have a look at the Jack Chick classic 'Dark Dungeons' if you want to see what I mean.

However, losing sales by offending people would not have been in their interests: I believe they merely toned down certain elements and decided to weather the strom. If anyone seems to have tackled the 'gaming = satanism' brigades head on it seems to have been Mike Stackpole of Flying Buffalo Inc (publishers of T&T, Nuclear War, etc.) judging by the evidence currently on line.

Edit: Found it -
http://www.rpg.net/sites/252/quellen/stackpole/pulling_report.html


As for me, I haven't played in years. I prefer Harnmaster for fantasy.

Nor I. Maybe 1987? 1988? Something like that. I always had a softspot for the Basic Role Playing set of rules (Runequest/Cthulhu/Elric/etc.) which seemed a lot more elegant and logical than D&D. Traveller would be system of choice for SF adventuring - first (classic) edition only, it really was a beautiful little system. The fact that your characters could die during character generation as the result of one bad die-roll only added to its charm.


Never had any experience with Harnmaster other than reading a couple of reviews of it when the first couple of books came out way back in the day.

The problem with Dungeons and Dragons in it's original form was that it sprang out of wargaming and it showed. The stereotypical "dungeon crawl" actually got tedious very quickly. Toon on the other hand was great. And Paranoia is still the best game ever written.

TSR no longer owns D&D
I really ought to have remembered that, considering I own a freaking RPG/Comics store*. I just never forgave Lorraine Williams for her damn 'sit-on-the-fence-and make-money' attitude, so I still think of it as TSR. WotC was almost as bad. "Find a trend, milk it dry, screw the dealers."


* I'm not active in store management anymore, so don't ask me anything about current product. We're still showing a profit every year, so I'm happy.

And Paranoia is still the best game ever written.

Problem with Paranoia for me was that it appeared to be intended to be played as a fast and easy game where the referee flung Catch-22s at the players who already had their hands full just dealing with each other. Fair enough. Why hide it behind such a cumbersome and awkward game system then? Something much more rules-light would have made a lot more sense to me, something like Tunnels & Trolls with tweaked missile weapons rules. My few experiences with Paranoia were not devilish fests of backstabbing and lying and counter-plotting, but instead a lot of fumbling with tables and cross-referencing.

I really ought to have remembered that, considering I own a freaking RPG/Comics store*

* I'm not active in store management anymore, so don't ask me anything about current product. We're still showing a profit every year, so I'm happy.

...well that's definitely a sad indictment of something or other...

nerds

I am eighteen and was recently introduced to D&D by way of friends involved with MtG and D2, and I have had nothing but fun with it. I first played version 2 I believe, which I enjoyed thoughly, so much in fact, I decided to learn how to DM. So I bought the 3.5 editions and I love it, how do you think it compares to the older versions?
More to the topic, I reside in the great state of Utah where the Mormon religion dominates most of the culture and there is no excpetion in my life. One of my friend's parents told him he was not to have the books in their house, not to play at others' homes who had the books, and not to communicate with anyone who did play the game. It didn't stop us, but it was very aggrivating. You ever notice that it is always the ignorant who rock the boat?

...well that's definitely a sad indictment of something or other...
Hey, I got married, she got a job, we moved, and I left the store running. What can ya do?

Back on semi-topic, I bet all you gamers think owning a gaming store would be just super-cool. Play D&D all day, get first dibs on all the new books, build your collection, etc. Before I answer that, lemme ask you this: how long can you work at the donut shop before you get tired of eating donuts? And how many donuts can you eat a day and still make a profit on sales?


Nothing like owning the store to kill your interest in the product.

You ever notice that it is always the ignorant who rock the boat?


*cough* nationstates *cough*

http://www.rpg.net/sites/252/quellen/stackpole/pulling_report.html

Just below that we have a warning to the cops that a player may not be able to distinguish between fantasy and reality. She notes that game players “react in real life situations in the same fashion that they would react in a gaming situation.” In a game, problems are solved by rolling dice and consulting a chart to see what the result are. Have police reported kids dealing with muggings by asking the attackers to hold off while they roll dice? Have teachers reported difficult test questions being puzzled out by kids rolling dice and consulting some chart? What exactly do these game reactions to real life situations consist of, and where is the evidence that they exist?

I think this is my favorite part. :D

nerds

Seeing as how that came from one of the RPers on NationStates I think we can safely assume that it was an ironic comment, whether intended as one or not...

Nothing like owning the store to kill your interest in the product.

Yeah - working in a musicians' collective surrounded by punks didn't kill my love for music, but I certainly wasn't playing punk music when I got home from a long night: after doing the sound for three bands of feckless teenagers playing the same five bar chords on slightly out of tune guitars I would go hope and there would be nothing I would want to listen to more than Hungarian zither music or the Original Dixieland Jazz Band or some prog double LP with heaps of 9th chords, flattened 5ths on the keyboards and some bloke singing in falsetto about travelling through the infinite depths of interstellar space.

Thanks to the high visibility of D&D, TSR has gotten a lot of people playing role-playing games, with their products routinely among the top sellers. As BWO pointed out, most of the better and longer-term RPers eventually move on to other, better systems. Anything that gets kids reading and activates their imagination is a good thing, IMHO.

TSR has failed the gaming community in other areas. When role-playing is attacked as Satanic or whatever the cause of the moment calls them, they sit back in their corporate chairs and let lesser players like Steve Jackson take the stage. As much money as we've made for that company, I'd think they'd want to step up to the plate a bit more.

As for me, I haven't played in years. I prefer Harnmaster for fantasy.

Harnmaster? What's that?

Anyhow, me and my friends started playing Hackmaster (DnD 3.5 *not* for dummies) a few months back, and have loved it. Put lots of $$ into it, but that's a seprate issue. Anyhow, I'd say that music and movies are much more satianic and demonic than roleplaying. Roleplaying actually involves thinking, unlike the majority of popular entertainment.

D&D doesn't make kids evil...
...kids makes use D&D to make it seem like its making them evil

(OOC: I am tired so don't hold it against me if it seems like I am making no sense)

Harnmaster? What's that?
HârnMaster.net (http://www.harnmaster.net/)

HârnWorld (http://www.columbiagames.com/HarnPage/Harnpageindexnew.shtml)

D&D doesn't make kids evil...
...kids makes use D&D to make it seem like its making them evil

(OOC: I am tired so don't hold it against me if it seems like I am making no sense)

D&D doesn't sacrifice people: people do?

D&D doesn't sacrifice people: people do?
basically yes

I like Vampire: The Masquerade myself.

i used to play DnD every once in a while, but i recently moved up to shadowrun, which im trying to organize a play by email campaign. Does anyone have any advice on how to run this type of campaign (im GMing, and thus far the group only has 1 other person)

Role-playing is great in general. I find that D&D is a good starting game, but it can get old fairly quickly. My favorite systems are Call of Cthulhu and Unknown Armies. I used to like Whitewolf systems, but the company pretty much butchered the storylines too much for my tastes.

nerds


A freind of mine say's the exact same thing. It's not.

I'm totally not a nerd (as in, I'm a rockstar, not a nerd!) but I've played it. However, my friend's kicked me out cause I was a jackass when I played. For instance, I destroyed a whole city by climbing into a sewer (which I convinced my DM was there) and lighting a torch. That's just the first of MANY thing's I did that pissed them off...there's more and much worse...

The point being...Yeah, the game actually is for nerds, and I only played until I got kicked out for not being "nerdish" enough...

Oh, and apperantly I "min/max" too much!!! Whatever that is!

Yeah - working in a musicians' collective surrounded by punks didn't kill my love for music, but I certainly wasn't playing punk music when I got home from a long night: after doing the sound for three bands of feckless teenagers playing the same five bar chords on slightly out of tune guitars I would go hope and there would be nothing I would want to listen to more than Hungarian zither music or the Original Dixieland Jazz Band or some prog double LP with heaps of 9th chords, flattened 5ths on the keyboards and some bloke singing in falsetto about travelling through the infinite depths of interstellar space.


You a musician too? I know, I play in a punk band, and it's killed my love of that particular genre, too!

The nice thing about our band, is that our songwritter makes punk songs, then the drummer and I make them more musical. I happen to be our lead guitarist, and write out rippin' good solo's...thus we have become the first in a new genre of "Punk Rock"...

Anyway, I too find that I appreciate music, even though punk has killed some part of me!!!

Problem with Paranoia for me was that it appeared to be intended to be played as a fast and easy game where the referee flung Catch-22s at the players who already had their hands full just dealing with each other. Fair enough. Why hide it behind such a cumbersome and awkward game system then? Something much more rules-light would have made a lot more sense to me, something like Tunnels & Trolls with tweaked missile weapons rules. My few experiences with Paranoia were not devilish fests of backstabbing and lying and counter-plotting, but instead a lot of fumbling with tables and cross-referencing.
Were you playing first ed or second? The first was a bit clunky but that had been mostly ironed out by the second. (And if you were a player what was your ref doing letting you read the mechanics in the first place? ;))

It's fun until every person wants to be a female, half elven rogue. Then it's just retarded.
what overweight unattractive nerdy guy doesn't secretly wanna be a skinny hot chick who can pick pockets and throw knives. heck i know i do...


and its not retarded, its just a wee bit gay...


not in the "that's so gay" perjorative way...


in the eventually leading to hot sweaty mansex way...

I figure I can get a good ten posts of reason in before the thread is hijacked by demogauges from either side, so what does everyone think of the game? Good? Bad? Inspired by Satan/Santa? Promotes or retards social development and interaction? Acting or escapism? A game for everyone or those elite few with Delusions of vampirism and a hefty sack of dice?

and this is probably like telling a rottweiler "no mauling" but try to keep it civil.

It's all about Role Playing, the predecessor to NationStates type web sites.