NationStates Jolt Archive

“Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, Religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labour to subvert these great Pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men & citizens. The mere Politican, equally with the pious man ought to respect & to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private & public felicity. Let it simply be asked where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the Oaths, which are the instruments of investigation in Courts of Justice? And let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure--reason & experience both forbid us to expect that National morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.”

- Excerpt from George Washington’s farewell address-

Just wondering what you all think of this.

I just wanted to say that the advise of 1776 isn't entirely applicable today, but I'll still read and comment.

And let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure--reason & experience both forbid us to expect that National morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.

The real GW is smarter than tha GW poser running for re-election...

Thats True, but mainly my point was to consider what the intention of the founding fathers was.

Considering he was a diest it does not mean much.

That is if you are implying america is a christian nation.

Religion does server a purpose for some in their moral codes. However to expect everybody else to live by your moral code is wrong.

Well, I heard that the founding fathers quoted directly out of the bible excessivly. what do you know of suggesting George Washington was a deist?

Well, I heard that the founding father quoted directly out of the bible excessivly. what do you know of suggesting George Washington was a deist?

Quoting out of the bible proves you're Christian?...

There is no question that America is not currently a christian nation, but I think It's founders intended it to be one.

Oh, by the way, George Washington wasn't the founding father. There were lots of them...

No, quoting the bible dosen't PROVE anything, but why would you do it if you weren't a christian?

I hate the US government. I don't care if GW loved Cowboy Bebop and caffe mochas. He was still authority. The only good thing about the US is that it is unlikely to embrace transhumanism any time soon.

I meant to put an S there, sorry I'll fix it.

There is no question that America is not currently a christian nation, but I think It's founders intended it to be one.

Well there is a letter from him to a Jewish council were he says it's not.

Tangent: My ancestor actually refused a commision from him. GW tried hard to get him to take it but eventually had to give up.

No, quoting the bible dosen't PROVE anything, but why would you do it if you weren't a christian?
Because a large majority of America is Christian and a good politician talks to his audience in a way that they can connect with. I'm not saying that GW definitely wasn't Christian, I'm just answering your question.

I hate the US government. I don't care if GW loved Cowboy Bebop and caffe mochas. He was still authority. The only good thing about the US is that it is unlikely to embrace transhumanism any time soon.

Damn it Letila!

If you are going to smoke, you have to share! ;)

Oh, and besides that, there is some good stuff in the bible, Christian or not.

I hate the US government. I don't care if GW loved Cowboy Bebop and caffe mochas. He was still authority. The only good thing about the US is that it is unlikely to embrace transhumanism any time soon.

What if he like TRIGUN??? (he'd prolly like it, but only for the guns, not the philosophical points)



BTW, our founding fathers wanted us to be SECULAR!!! Otherwise, we wouldn't have the separation between religion and state.

There is no question that America is not currently a christian nation, but I think It's founders intended it to be one.

If that was true, then why did they include freedom of religion and seperation of church and state in the constitution? The founding fathers wanted a nation FREE of religious tyrany and persecution. The U.S. is supposed to be a nation of liberty, something a christian theocracy would never afford its citizens. Want to live in a religious country? Move to Iran.

Oh, and besides that, there is some good stuff in the bible, Christian or not.

True, there is the stuff advocating communism.

" O most Glorious God, In Jesus Christ my loving and merciful father, I acknowledge and confess my guilt, in the weak and imperfect performance of the duties of this day"

—from Daily Sacrifice, Washington’s personal prayer book,
written in his own handwriting

BTW, our founding fathers wanted us to be SECULAR!!! Otherwise, we wouldn't have the separation between religion and state.
Wrong. Our founding fathers didn't want us to be secular. They wanted us to be free of religious persecution because they understood that no one on earth is in a position to decide who is or is not right.

True, there is the stuff advocating communism.
Jesus invented socialism.
Jesus was nailed to a tree.

Out of curiousity? Have any of you ever read the book "The Age of Reason", written by George Washington's close friend, Thomas Paine?

Also, a link to consider: http://ffrf.org/nontracts/?t=xian.txt

Considering he was a diest it does not mean much.


What the heck is a deist?

:confused:

The words "Seperation of Church and State" do not appear anywhere in the constitution.

True, there is the stuff advocating communism.

BS.

BS.
Jesus Christ was an avid Socialist...there is tons of communistic stuff in the bible...

There is no question that America is not currently a christian nation, but I think It's founders intended it to be one.
If they intended it to be, why aren't those statements and requirements in the documents that defined our nation?

Here are these learned men, with a blank parchment before them. They live in a world dominated by Christian ideals. Much of the new nation was founded by people escaping religious persecution, and the family Bible was in virtually every home. Notes about births and deaths in the flyleaves of each family's Bible were commonly accepted as public record in those days before county courthouses. The words of the Old and New Testaments pervaded their lives.

So here they are, looking at this blank page, wanting to define this nation in ways that could last. They had every opportunity to make the Ten Commandments an integral part of the law of the land. Even after Jefferson was done with the Constitution, they still could have added them in the Bill of Rights. But they didn't. Instead, they added a statement preventing the government from endorsing an official religion.

I don't see how anyone can look at that historical period and decide that these brilliant men forgot to make Christianity the official religion of the USA. They INTENDED to leave it open to all faiths, and that is one of the principal factors in this nation's longevity, in my opinion.

I welcome intelligent rebuttal from students of history.

"But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality." (Golden Text: 2 Corinthians 8:14)

"Now the company of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one said that any of the things which he possessed was his own, but they had everything in common. And with great power the apostles gave their testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all.

There was not a needy person among them, for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of what was sold and laid it at the apostles' feet; and distribution was made to each as any had need." Acts 4.32-35

"But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality." (Golden Text: 2 Corinthians 8:14)

"Now the company of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one said that any of the things which he possessed was his own, but they had everything in common. And with great power the apostles gave their testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all.

There was not a needy person among them, for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of what was sold and laid it at the apostles' feet; and distribution was made to each as any had need." Acts 4.32-35

How could someone like you quote the Bible? Communists are supposed to hate religion in general, and Christianity in particular.

By the way, none of the above things have to do with socialism or communism. Nice try.

If they intended it to be, why aren't those statements and requirements in the documents that defined our nation?

Here are these learned men, with a blank parchment before them. They live in a world dominated by Christian ideals. Much of the new nation was founded by people escaping religious persecution, and the family Bible was in virtually every home. Notes about births and deaths in the flyleaves of each family's Bible were commonly accepted as public record in those days before county courthouses. The words of the Old and New Testaments pervaded their lives.

So here they are, looking at this blank page, wanting to define this nation in ways that could last. They had every opportunity to make the Ten Commandments an integral part of the law of the land. Even after Jefferson was done with the Constitution, they still could have added them in the Bill of Rights. But they didn't. Instead, they added a statement preventing the government from endorsing an official religion.

I don't see how anyone can look at that historical period and decide that these brilliant men forgot to make Christianity the official religion of the USA. They INTENDED to leave it open to all faiths, and that is one of the principal factors in this nation's longevity, in my opinion.

I welcome intelligent rebuttal from students of history.


In all fairness, they probably intended for America to be a Christian nation with no official sect. All Europeans were essentially Christian at the time...they weren't being persecuted for being Budhist or Muslim, they were being persecuted for being Catholic, or Baptist, or Anglican, or whatever. The religious freedom at the time was likely intended to be a choice between Christian sects and the intent was probably for the US to be a Christian nation, however, that was not their ultimatum. Their main purpose was religious freedom, but ideally, Christianity was their goal.

How could someone like you quote the Bible? Communists are supposed to hate religion in general, and Christianity in particular.

By the way, none of the above things have to do with socialism or communism. Nice try.
Then you know little about communism and socialism--and Jesus for that matter...

How could someone like you quote the Bible? Communists are supposed to hate religion in general, and Christianity in particular.

By the way, none of the above things have to do with socialism or communism. Nice try.

Sorry, but you are too uneducated to be playing NationStates.

there is nothing wrong with the basic premise of communism, it just has never worked on any sizeable scale in real life- oh and I don't think you can assume that because people sold thier land and distributed the profits according to who needed it meant they supported the idea we know of as modern communist philosophy.

Sorry, but you are too uneducated to be playing NationStates.

Yes, communists do hate religion.

Marx called religion "the opiate of the people," as did Lenin. Marx also said, "Our goal is to destroy capitalism and dethrone God!" (Emphasis added)

Mao Tse-tung said, "Our God is none other than the masses of the Chinese people."

Nikita Khrushchev said, "Our rocket has passed the moon. It is already approaching the sun, and we still haven't discovered a God. We have now snuffed out lights in the heavens which no man will be able to rekindle. We are engaged in breaking the yoke of the Gospel, the opium of the masses. Let us only proceed, and Christ will speedily be relegated to mythology!"

In all fairness, they probably intended for America to be a Christian nation with no official sect.

Their main purpose was religious freedom, but ideally, Christianity was their goal.
So why didn't they include the 10 Commandments in the Constitution? Why didn't they add Biblical language to to early laws instead of basing them largely on English Common Law? You've actually made my point stronger by helping to define the political / religious atmosphere of the time, which was clearly Christian. The exclusion of Christian ideals from the Declaration and Constitution is the strongest argument that they were intended to be left out.

The other strong argument is that they had just experienced what it was like living under King George and an official state religion. It's my guess they wanted no part of that.

Besides, the Founding Fathers' intent is irrelevant now. We can't go back and ask them, we can only look at the context of the times and make informed guesses. In the meantime, we base our law around the Constitution and the Bill of Rights that they wrote, and those documents specifically prevent us from annointing a state religion.

Then you know little about communism and socialism--and Jesus for that matter...

All I said was that communists hate religion- which is true- and that Letila's quotes in no way pertained to communism or socialism- which is also true.

How could someone like you quote the Bible? Communists are supposed to hate religion in general, and Christianity in particular.

Just because I'm not Christian doesn't mean I won't try to get Christians to see the light. I really don't have a problem with religion so long as it doesn't motivate pædophilia or terrorism or something. I'm not really atheist in the conventional sense, anyway.

By the way, none of the above things have to do with socialism or communism. Nice try.

Do you know what communism is?

Do you know what communism is?

Yes.

It's allegedly what will result after the dictatorship of the proletariat withers away and the "new man" comes into being. It is the hypothetical world that will emerge, a world without hate, fear, ignorance, injustice, laziness, or selfishness, a world where everyone is perfect and there is no need for laws, government, police, a military, courts, or jails, a world where everyone is equal.

All I said was that communists hate religion- which is true- and that Letila's quotes in no way pertained to communism or socialism- which is also true.
Communists do hate religion, do you know why?
Letila's quotes have a lot to do with communism/socialism if you know what communism/socialism is.

Communists do hate religion, do you know why?
Letila's quotes have a lot to do with communism/socialism if you know what communism/socialism is.

They have to do with kindliness toward the poor (which is always a good thing) and helping the needy, but nothing to do with socialism/communism or any type of government or economic system period.

Yes, communists do hate religion.

Marx called religion "the opiate of the people," as did Lenin. Marx also said, "Our goal is to destroy capitalism and dethrone God!" (Emphasis added)

Mao Tse-tung said, "Our God is none other than the masses of the Chinese people."

Nikita Khrushchev said, "Our rocket has passed the moon. It is already approaching the sun, and we still haven't discovered a God. We have now snuffed out lights in the heavens which no man will be able to rekindle. We are engaged in breaking the yoke of the Gospel, the opium of the masses. Let us only proceed, and Christ will speedily be relegated to mythology!"
Just because Communists despise religion doesn't mean religion is anti-communist/anti-socialist. There is a very good reason why communists don't like religion and I'd like to know whether or not you know the reason.

Before I depart, allow me to suggest this link once more: http://ffrf.org/nontracts/?t=xian.txt

Good day to you all.

They have to do with kindliness toward the poor (which is always a good thing) and helping the needy, but nothing to do with socialism/communism or any type of government or economic system period.
Communism isn't a government. It's an ideal. In communism's most basic definion, the people with plenty give, the people with not enough get given to. That is exactly what the quotes are talking about.

I'm not suggesting that we make christianity the official religion of the US, I just think this nonsense about removing everything having anything to do with God- like the ten commandments or " in God we trust" or "one nation under God" etc is ridiculous.

I'm not suggesting that we make christianity the official religion of the US, I just think this nonsense about removing everything having anything to do with God- like the ten commandments or " in God we trust" or "one nation under God" etc is ridiculous.

Agreed.

I'm not suggesting that we make christianity the official religion of the US, I just think this nonsense about removing everything having anything to do with God- like the ten commandments or " in God we trust" or "one nation under God" etc is ridiculous.
I'm going to have to disagree on the Ten Commandments. The first four commandments have nothing to do with US government and everything to do with Judeo-Christian law. Number five is a bit sketchy, but it's a good moral statement in broad terms. Only six through ten have anything to do with actual US law.

As to the coins and the Pledge, well, I can live with the denuciations from the polytheists and atheists if I must. Besides, coins will be irrelevant soon enough, and maybe Wachovia will not put the phrase on my debit card anytime soon.

The problem I have with turning America fully secular is that very often by "secular mentality," those who push it really mean "atheist mentality." The belief systems and sense of morality of atheists are extremely different from my own. In fact, I find many of the standards of true atheism, and especially half assed atheism, to be immoral - I think that's also the case with most religious people. Not knocking anyone's (lack of) faith, atheism is just different. Different isn't bad, but I don't want my life insofar as the ways I choose to express myself, the ways I choose to socialize, and the ways I choose to practice my faith, to be controlled by the whiniest minority.

Instead of protecting the will of all from the so-called corruption of religion, a secular America, in the way people are trying to create it, would simply oppress the majority equally. I believe that the seperation of church and state was more manufactured to protect religion from being tainted by politics (as was the case with the Church of England) than it was manufactured to keep politics from being tainted by religion. That should hold true today, especially with the cultural diversity we now have in America.

I think that if people started to re-translate the word "God" for modern times, this wouldn't be an issue. I'm very devout to my non Judaio-Christian religion, and I realize that the founders probably did mean Jehovah when referring to "In God We Trust," etc. But that word, "God," can be interpreted as so many different things for all our different peoples - the human will, Yahweh, Allah, Gautama, Jehovah, Brahma... Even though the influence of oppressed Christianity is impressed in our founding documents (not saying that's a bad thing!), I don't think "God" has to be the Christian God, and I'm happy with the pledge the way it is.

Just my two turqoise necklaces...

Someone has already mentioned that there was more than one "Founder."

I don't know much about Washington... but I do know that Madison was openly anti-religious. Surprisingly, it even comes through a bit in some of his Federalist Papers, in which his view would have been subdued for a mass audience. But in general, he was terrified of religion, because he knew it was one of the few things that could truly inflame the passions of a majority to the point that no reason would sway them.

Jefferson leaned pretty heavily toward atheism, although in some of his writings you pick up religious language. On this, you have to understand that the western world was just getting used to the idea that religion need not rule all things, and "religious language" was part of the language. It was how people communicated... and when the Constitution was written, the French Revolution had yet to appear with the wild notion that the whole language could be re-invented.

(Note: Jefferson was not present to help compose the Constitution. It is strongly suspected by many historians that the project was kept secret from him to avoid his heavily democratic, not to mention influential, voice. Also note: Jefferson appreciated the biblical message for its moral teaching. He even went so far as to excerpt the moral passages from the New Testament so that they could be read without the religious context.)