NationStates Jolt Archive

Socialism is the mix of communism and capitalism. In capitalism, there are huge amounts of poor and a few rich with a lot in the middle class. In communism everyone is at the same level and you can never go anywhere in life. Alos it does not work woith complex societys and is easy to manipulate. SO thats why socialism is the best. It allows you to rise in society, but laws are passed making a floor so that poor people have gov't funded housing+stuff. There would of course be a limit to what the gov't can own. So, that is why socialism is the best.

YES!

...sweden is a semi socialist country, right?

Jesus, I don't know crap about my own country, do I?


:gundge:

paj and ikea to sweden

Ikea is god

Ikea is god
I always knew God is evil...now I have the proof

YES!

...sweden is a semi socialist country, right?

Jesus, I don't know crap about my own country, do I?


:gundge:

I guess we could be seen to be a social democracy.

Last time I checked, Sweden didn't abolish wage labor. They aren't socialist.

Socialism is a system for envious people who made poor decisions in their life and are conformists. They want those who made good decisions in their life to pay for the "less fortunate's" mistakes. It is a "robin hood" system where the government steals from the rich and gives to the poor.

Last time I checked, Sweden didn't abolish wage labor. They aren't socialist.

Absolutely, that's why I said the above.
Of course, it all depends on the definition one uses of socialism.

Last time I checked, Sweden didn't abolish wage labor. They aren't socialist.
Don't confuse Socialism and Communism.

I hate both systems of course...but Communism more of course. It's even more hypocritical than the other.

Don't confuse Socialism and Communism.

Socialism is the abolition of wage labor and communism is a form of socialism without markets, money, or social classes.

socialism is a lot more like communism than people give it credit for

That doesn't necessarily make it bad, though. there are good points of all systems,

Socialism is the abolition of wage labor and communism is a form of socialism without markets, money, or social classes.
If you aren't getting paid "wages" for labor; which is what your statement seems to imply; you are talking about COMMUNISM! Plain and simple. Not Socialism which is just government control and taxing the hell out of "wages" that people make that are more than an other's.

Socialism is the abolition of wage labor and communism is a form of socialism without markets, money, or social classes.

That is one definition. The truth is that there is no decisive definition. The word has many meanings.

Our taxes are superhuman

If you aren't getting paid "wages" for labor; which is what your statement seems to imply; you are talking about COMMUNISM! Plain and simple. Not Socialism which is just government control and taxing the hell out of "wages" that people make that are more than an other's.

Even if wages are abolished, people still make products and sell them. The difference between socialism and capitalism is that workers sell products in socialism and sell labor in capitalism.

Even if wages are abolished, people still make products and sell them. The difference between socialism and capitalism is that workers sell products in socialism and sell labor in capitalism.
Who forces people to make products? And which one? The government? Sounds like slave labor and Communism to me. I mean, without wages, does it become a personal decision or a government decision?

Who forces people to make products? And which one? The government? Sounds like slave labor and Communism to me. I mean, without wages, does it become a personal decision or a government decision?

In most forms of socialism, the market forces them to, which is no worse than it capitalism. They sell the products for money. In communism, it is based on agreements between workers, groups of workers, communes, etc. and reputation, so the people reputed to share products receive products in turn.

Who forces people to make products? And which one? The government? Sounds like slave labor and Communism to me. I mean, without wages, does it become a personal decision or a government decision?
Forces people to make products? Who said anything about that? Slavery relies on a class system, and people owning things and real communism abolishes classes and property, so how do the two go together? Without wages you are paid according to what you produce. The method by which a person's pay is determined doesn't exactly take away a persons ability to make decisions, as you seem to be implying, but rather creates an incentive to work harder, as producing more will make more money. If you're paid a wage, what incentive is there to produce more? You'll make the same amount. That's the only real difference between the two methods of payment.

In most forms of socialism, the market forces them to, which is no worse than it capitalism. They sell the products for money. In communism, it is based on agreements between workers, groups of workers, communes, etc. and reputation, so the people reputed to share products receive products in turn.
So what if some people decide not to make the products and instead milk the system? And are the "leaders" in such a hippie commune system treated to the same lifestyle as the workers? You obviously LOVE being a conformist or are just lazy. You wish that everyone was the same; that way you wouldn't have the other corrupting human emotion that you have. Envy. Afterall...there is no incentive in a Communist sytem for anyone but the "leaders." Why aren't you envious of them? Oh, I know, just 2 or 3 people and that's not enough to envy. It's when you see your neighbor be/get rich that really gets you when you realize you're still "stuck."

Forces people to make products? Who said anything about that? Slavery relies on a class system, and people owning things and real communism abolishes classes and property, so how do the two go together? Without wages you are paid according to what you produce. The method by which a person's pay is determined doesn't exactly take away a persons ability to make decisions, as you seem to be implying, but rather creates an incentive to work harder, as producing more will make more money. If you're paid a wage, what incentive is there to produce more? You'll make the same amount. That's the only real difference between the two methods of payment.
Read my previous reply to Letila about this.

And IN ADDITION:

There ARE CLASSES IN COMMUNISM. Actually 2. The "rulers" aka Capitalists and hypocrites in disguise; and the "workers".

And what are you paid with in Communism? Food and clothes? Oh no, this isn't slavery. hahahaha You are such an envious person! You hate to see the rich people in your country don't you? Why doesn't your ENVY MAKE YOU WANT TO WORK/STUDY HARDER? Maybe one day you can be like them. Something that you can't hope to be in Communism. You'll never be one of the "leaders" no matter how much you produce.

So what if some people decide not to make the products and instead milk the system?

They would be unpopular and find others unwilling to share with them.

And are the "leaders" in such a hippie commune system treated to the same lifestyle as the workers?

There are none. That's the point.

You obviously LOVE being a conformist or are just lazy. You wish that everyone was the same; that way you wouldn't have the other corrupting human emotion that you have. Envy. Afterall...there is no incentive in a Communist sytem for anyone but the "leaders." Why aren't you envious of them? Oh, I know, just 2 or 3 people and that's not enough to envy. It's when you see your neighbor be/get rich that really gets you when you realize you're still "stuck."

Hardly. I want freedom and equal opportunity, not conformity.

Hardly. I want freedom and equal opportunity, not conformity.
Both of which exist in our system today. Work/Study HARDER or own up to your mistakes if it's too late.

Of course, if you've "made it," well, take a look at what got you there and congratulations!

Both of which exist in our system today. Work/Study HARDER or own up to your mistakes if it's too late.

Of course, if you've "made it," well, take a look at what got you there and congratulations!

What about the people who inherited money?

What about the people who inherited money?
They are the flaw of capitalism.
As opposed to the flaw of communism, which exists in a much larger portion of the population.

They are the flaw of capitalism.
As opposed to the flaw of communism, which exists in a much larger portion of the population.

I wouldn't call it a flaw, people have a right to choose who they can give their money to or not. Giving your own flesh and blood a better head start then you got is the dream of all parents, whether it be educational, finacial, or otherwise.

I wouldn't call it a flaw, people have a right to choose who they can give their money to or not. Giving your own flesh and blood a better head start then you got is the dream of all parents, whether it be educational, finacial, or otherwise.
Oh, but it is a flaw. The fact that people earn enough money that their children can live their entire life without working at all means that people are probably exploiting way too much...if you can't spend it, invest it.

I wouldn't call it a flaw, people have a right to choose who they can give their money to or not. Giving your own flesh and blood a better head start then you got is the dream of all parents, whether it be educational, finacial, or otherwise.

And what about the rhetoric about a level playing field?

What about the people who inherited money?
ENVY AGAIN! Geez, what is wrong with inheriting money?! I bet you'd like to. If you became independantly wealthy through your hard work or otherwise (if you aren't already) and die, wouldn't you want your family and loved ones to inhererit what you have done rather than the government?

This arguement is so envious it's ridiculous! Not only do you envy those who have worked hard for what they have, but you HATE those who were lucky enough to be part of that family or a loved one? Would your opinion change if you had inherited a fortune? Are you a hypocrite? One thing is for sure, Teresa Hines sure is one. She inherited apparently over a billion dollars from her previous husband a REPUBLICAN SENATOR. Do you hate her? I do! But because of her Socialist hypocrisy.

It's like Bill Gates...I hate him too...but because he's a nerd who actually asked his girlfriends what their IQ's were before dating them (at least it is reported.) Not because I envy his fortune. I wish that one day I could be as wealthy as he.

Oh, but it is a flaw. The fact that people earn enough money that their children can live their entire life without working at all means that people are probably exploiting way too much...if you can't spend it, invest it.
And this just shows your ignroance! Wealthy people DO NOT have their money stashed under their beds! Bill Gates, or any other wealthy person probably has trouble coming up with even a measly million dollars. You see, their money IS INVESTED. It is invested in his business (this is why his and other's fortunes fluctuate depending upon the economy). Even if he had all this money in the bank it would still be invested. Where do you get the money to buy your house or car? THE BANK! And where does it get it's moneY??? Wealthy people are why the US is what it is and it is the reason that the economy functions.

Inheriting money = lower work ethic.

Believe me, I know. I work with someone whose parents are pretty high up in the movie theater business (which is how he got a job at the movie theater I work at). His parents are rich and therefore, he doesn't have to do much in the way of work around his house (whereas my parents' are moderately rich, upper-middle I'd guess), but I have to work around the house and I know the benefits of doing things properly and I know about taking pride in my work. This kid is rich and spoiled and has no concept of hard work or a work ethic. He only got his job because of his dad's position etcetera. Inheritance produces lazy workers and tears down the ideal of capitalism.

And what about the rhetoric about a level playing field?

A load of BS. Capitalism is a lot like real life, there are people out there who are just better at things then others. There are people who can run faster then others, jump higher then others, are smarter then others, look better then others, and vice versa. Yes there are people who have a head start compared to others, but capitalism is about having the ability to move ahead. For every rich daddy's boy in the world, there's ten more who worked for their money.

And what about the rhetoric about a level playing field?
There is a level playing field in the US. Money is very cheap...look at interest rates. If you're a good student you get a free education for as long as you want. If you've been born into a poor family, there are plenty of programs to help you have a roof over your head. It is then all up to you to make something of yourself.

Quit looking at what others have through your eyes of envy. Stop feeling sorry for yourself. Stop blaming others for YOUR CHOICES! It's your life, do something with it...make something of yourself. The opportunity exists...now get off your ass!

Inheriting money = lower work ethic.

Believe me, I know. I work with someone whose parents are pretty high up in the movie theater business (which is how he got a job at the movie theater I work at). His parents are rich and therefore, he doesn't have to do much in the way of work around his house (whereas my parents' are moderately rich, upper-middle I'd guess), but I have to work around the house and I know the benefits of doing things properly and I know about taking pride in my work. This kid is rich and spoiled and has no concept of hard work or a work ethic. He only got his job because of his dad's position etcetera. Inheritance produces lazy workers and tears down the ideal of capitalism.
And if this isn't a perfect example of envy I don't know what is. Look at yourself! Damn it, you are what's wrong with society today.

This is just my 2 cents, but...
I love living in a "social democracy", namely Finland. The governement guarantees, that should I lose my job, fall ill without having a heltht insurance or being able to afford private doctors, I will not be forced to sell my house(if I had one, I don't, I'm just a student) and move into a cardboard box and beg for a living. I get a grant for studying and a chance to move to into government-subsidied student housing. I am very annoyedby right-wing politicians who would cut the government spending to bare minium and all but abolish taxes and tariffs. I will, personally, rather pay high taxes and reap the benefits, than having to worry about private medical insurances and suchlike. In my opinion, a strong government and market-regulation beats the turd out of the American way of things any day.

P.S. This is just my opinion of things, not a flame bait. If you want to comment it, please do, but please refrain from insulting me or my intelligence.

P.P.S. Since English is not my first language, this post might not neccessarily be an easy read. Apologies for any inconvenience.

A load of BS. Capitalism is a lot like real life, there are people out there who are just better at things then others. There are people who can run faster then others, jump higher then others, are smarter then others, look better then others, and vice versa. Yes there are people who have a head start compared to others, but capitalism is about having the ability to move ahead. For every rich daddy's boy in the world, there's ten more who worked for their money.
Right on!

And if this isn't a perfect example of envy I don't know what is. Look at yourself! Damn it, you are what's wrong with society today.
Hard workers are definitely what is wrong with society today. By the way, on the behalf of Letila and myself, I'm suggested a mod look at your posts. You're assuming that anyone against capitalism is lazy, which is quite an asanine assumption.

Inheriting money = lower work ethic.

Believe me, I know. I work with someone whose parents are pretty high up in the movie theater business (which is how he got a job at the movie theater I work at). His parents are rich and therefore, he doesn't have to do much in the way of work around his house (whereas my parents' are moderately rich, upper-middle I'd guess), but I have to work around the house and I know the benefits of doing things properly and I know about taking pride in my work. This kid is rich and spoiled and has no concept of hard work or a work ethic. He only got his job because of his dad's position etcetera. Inheritance produces lazy workers and tears down the ideal of capitalism.

And how exactly do you know how much he works around the house? Have you actually asked/seen his lower work ethic? This sounds a lot like jealousy.

This is just my 2 cents, but...
I love living in a "social democracy", namely Finland. The governement guarantees, that should I lose my job, fall ill without having a heltht insurance or being able to afford private doctors, I will not be forced to sell my house(if I had one, I don't, I'm just a student) and move into a cardboard box and beg for a living. I get a grant for studying and a chance to move to into government-subsidied student housing. I am very annoyedby right-wing politicians who would cut the government spending to bare minium and all but abolish taxes and tariffs. I will, personally, rather pay high taxes and reap the benefits, than having to worry about private medical insurances and suchlike. In my opinion, a strong government and market-regulation beats the turd out of the American way of things any day.

P.S. This is just my opinion of things, not a flame bait. If you want to comment it, please do, but please refrain from insulting me or my intelligence.

P.P.S. Since English is not my first language, this post might not neccessarily be an easy read. Apologies for any inconvenience.
Did you know, and most people who haven't had a serious illness in the hospital don't know, that if you get deathly ill nobody will force you to sell your house or anything. HEre in the US anyway. The hospital CANNOT turn you away regardless of your finances. You will be treated just as well as everyone else. Once you are well enough, by law, the hospital MUST work out a payment plan that you are capable of paying according to your financial situation.

You know what really is unfair? Someone who has worked hard to save lets say, a million dollars (maybe a lot by some of you socialist's standards.) He/she gets "deathly ill" and the treatment costs a million dollars. Guess what? That hard work just went down the drain...because, since he saved money IS FORCED to pay. Of course you envious people would probably love that.

And how exactly do you know how much he works around the house? Have you actually asked/seen his lower work ethic? This sounds a lot like jealousy.
I work with him...

Hard workers are definitely what is wrong with society today. By the way, on the behalf of Letila and myself, I'm suggested a mod look at your posts. You're assuming that anyone against capitalism is lazy, which is quite an asanine assumption.
Go right ahead and have them look. Are you afraid of me changing some other's minds? Is that the only defense you have? This site's contributers cannot be any further left or ignorant of the facts or their own opinions quite frankly.

Go right ahead and have them look. Are you afraid of me changing some other's minds? Is that the only defense you have? This contributers site cannot be any further left.
What site? ...and what defense are you talking about? ...and I'm not afraid of you changing someone's minds; I'm afraid of you changing someone's mind based off fallacies.

What site? ...and what defense are you talking about? ...and I'm not afraid of you changing someone's minds; I'm afraid of you changing someone's mind based off fallacies.
Am I that smart? Or are the others so stupid?

I work with him...

And somehow working with him = knowing about his home life and ethics?

Am I that smart? Or are the others so stupid?
I'm not sure what you're talking about. Consiceness would be nice.

Am I that smart? Or are the others so stupid?
You know, this sounds a whole lot like the argument against Bush that he's stupid.

I mean how can he be so stupid; yet be smart enough to come up with all these corrupt schemes for world oil control and domination that he is constantly attacked of. You can't have it both ways.

And somehow working with him = knowing about his home life and ethics?
Well, since humans are social, yes. He always tells me how he sits at home and plays his video games all day. And I know he has no work ethic because he doesn't do jack shit when he is at work. How would a fellow employee NOT know about another employee's work ethic? Jesus...have you ever had a job?

Socialism is a system for envious people who made poor decisions in their life and are conformists. They want those who made good decisions in their life to pay for the "less fortunate's" mistakes. It is a "robin hood" system where the government steals from the rich and gives to the poor.

Your logic is terribly flawed, in many ways really; but particularly in assuming that only those who make 'bad decisions' support socialism, while anyone who makes 'good decisions' hates it. I suppose if you live in a capitalist country, I can see how that view would be predominant.

Socialism is just a branch of altruism, while capitalism is just a branch of egoism.

You know, this sounds a whole lot like the argument against Bush that he's stupid.

I mean how can he be so stupid; yet be smart enough to come up with all these corrupt schemes for world oil control and domination that he is constantly attacked of. You can't have it both ways.
Again, it'd be nice if you were more clear and specific as to what it is exactly that you are talking about.

Your logic is terribly flawed, in many ways really; but particularly in assuming that only those who make 'bad decisions' support socialism, while anyone who makes 'good decisions' hates it. I suppose if you live in a capitalist country, I can see how that view would be predominant.

Socialism is just a branch of altruism, while capitalism is just a branch of egoism.
And vice-versa.

And vice-versa.
Vice-versa what? Would you please be extremely more clear when you post? I don't think anyone is following your posts very well...

Well, since humans are social, yes. He always tells me how he sits at home and plays his video games all day. And I know he has no work ethic because he doesn't do jack shit when he is at work. How would a fellow employee NOT know about another employee's work ethic? Jesus...have you ever had a job?

Yes, although I've never been jealous at another employee before, which is what you sound like. I've told people before how some days I can just sit in front of the TV all day and do nothing, yet I am no where near being rich or having rich parents. I've known people who literally don't do anything all week and they're poor as hell. Perhaps your friend has a lousy work ethic because that's how he is biologically?

As to if he does or doesn't do jack shit at work I can't verify, although from your tone I would say there's bias in your description of him.

You obviously LOVE being a conformist or are just lazy. Explain to us how supporting a system beloved by the powerful elite makes you a non-conformist. Or how people who make their money off stocks and shares or landlords aren't lazy.ENVY AGAIN! Geez, what is wrong with inheriting money?! I bet you'd like to. If you became independantly wealthy through your hard work or otherwise (if you aren't already) and die, wouldn't you want your family and loved ones to inhererit what you have done rather than the government?You're just lazy. Why not work for your money instead of sponging off your parents? Get a job.
Yes there are people who have a head start compared to others, but capitalism is about having the ability to move ahead. For every rich daddy's boy in the world, there's ten more who worked for their money.That's simply not true. See http://eprints.ouls.ox.ac.uk:81/eursoj/hdb/Volume_17/Issue_02/abstacts/170081.sgm

They are the flaw of capitalism.Not just that. How about the fact that the free market only exists for the rich- laws restricting strike action exist in all capitalist countries, so there is no free market of Labour. Or the fact that despite the propaganda of people like El Aguila the idea that capitalism is a meritocracy is a myth. It's all based on what family you were born in, not your talents and hard work as the above source shows.

As to if he does or doesn't do jack shit at work I can't verify, although from your tone I would say there's bias in your description of him.

If I knew the email address's of the other employees and assistant managers (the general manager is a family friend of his...), you could verify his laziness.

That's simply not true. See http://eprints.ouls.ox.ac.uk:81/eursoj/hdb/Volume_17/Issue_02/abstacts/170081.sgm

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And vice-versa.

Care to add some context to what that is being applied to? :rolleyes: See, I live in a (pretty much) socialist nation. I've known people who are both poor, and well off. While nobody cares for people who purposely abuse the system (even if they are poor themselves), I've yet to meet anyone here who is actually against the principles of socialism, or who feels they are being robbed.

In short, the system isn't being forced on the country. The country supports the system, even those whom don't benefit from it. There is no stealing. People are willingly helping other people.

Oh, and by the way, Aguila is arguing with the wrong person...

I am a supporter of capitalism...I'm just realistic enough to recognize and admit its flaws. It's insane to say that capitalism is flawless.

Explain to us how supporting a system beloved by the powerful elite makes you a non-conformist. Or how people who make their money off stocks and shares or landlords aren't lazy.You're just lazy. Why not work for your money instead of sponging off your parents? Get a job.
That's simply not true. See http://eprints.ouls.ox.ac.uk:81/eursoj/hdb/Volume_17/Issue_02/abstacts/170081.sgm

Not just that. How about the fact that the free market only exists for the rich- laws restricting strike action exist in all capitalist countries, so there is no free market of Labour. Or the fact that despite the propaganda of people like El Aguila the idea that capitalism is a meritocracy is a myth. It's all based on what family you were born in, not your talents and hard work as the above source shows.
The answers to your arguements against me:

1. It makes me a non-conformist because I want to better myself so that I may one day become (if I am not already) a member of that "elite" class you envy. I am not locked out as I am in Communism.
2. As for people making money of their stocks/shares/and properties...well where did the original money come from if not by hard work (in most cases)? Shouldn't someone who works hard or is lucky enough to have a "big break" be entitled to enjoy the fruits of his labor rather than supporting others who do not work hard?
3.

Or the fact that despite the propaganda of people like El Aguila the idea that capitalism is a meritocracy is a myth. It's all based on what family you were born in, not your talents and hard work as the above source shows.
This sounds like an excuse for people who cannot thrive in a capitalist society like the United States. Oh, they inherited money. Oh, they abuse their workers. Oh, they stiff the poor. etc. etc. etc.

Care to add some context to what that is being applied to? :rolleyes: See, I live in a (pretty much) socialist nation. I've known people who are both poor, and well off. While nobody cares for people who purposely abuse the system (even if they are poor themselves), I've yet to meet anyone here who is actually against the principles of socialism, or who feels they are being robbed.

In short, the system isn't being forced on the country. The country supports the system, even those whom don't benefit from it. There is no stealing. People are willingly helping other people.
It simple. The same way you view our world we can view yours.

I believe I'm right and you believe you're right. I really cannot take this conversation up with you because I've never been to Finland. I have been to other "socialist" countries however. I have found envy to be the underlying problem.

Oh, and by the way, Aguila is arguing with the wrong person...

I am a supporter of capitalism...I'm just realistic enough to recognize and admit its flaws. It's insane to say that capitalism is flawless.
Maybe I've been looking at it wrong also. ENVY is the flaw of capitalism. Although probably not. This is a HUMAN FLAW.

It simple. The same way you view our world we can view yours.

I believe I'm right and you believe you're right. I really cannot take this conversation up with you because I've never been to Finland. I have been to other "socialist" countries however. I have found envy to be the underlying problem.

What problem? There are people in need, those who cannot afford the basics of life. Other people with more give something of theirs, at no benefit to themselves, to help those in need.

Even if envy came in to the picture, and I personally feel it doesn't, the fact that people are willingly helping other people negates any so called 'problem'. This is an amicable agreement (minus those who abuse it, but that will exist in any system). So long as both sides are agreeable to the situation, I fail to see how there is a problem.

Envy should not be your excuse for not bettering yourself. It should be what MOTIVATES you to do better! NOBODY is holding you back. At least not here in the U.S.

Maybe I've been looking at it wrong also. ENVY is the flaw of capitalism. Although probably not. This is a HUMAN FLAW.
I'm not envious of a person with a shitty work ethic.
You're an idiot. I know really rich people that work really hard. The money they have has no base in my judgment of a person. The thing I don't like is that richer people (who didn't work for their money) tend to have a shittier work ethic, but poor people can have this flaw too. If you have a good work ethic, I have no problem with you. If you have a bad work ethic, and I have to take up for your slack and get paid the same as you, I'm not going to be too happy.

What problem? There are people in need, those who cannot afford the basics of life. Other people with more give something of theirs, at no benefit to themselves, to help those in need.

Even if envy came in to the picture, and I personally feel it doesn't, the fact that people are willingly helping other people negates any so called 'problem'. This is an amicable agreement (minus those who abuse it, but that will exist in any system). So long as both sides are agreeable to the situation, I fail to see how there is a problem.
I don't have a problem with Finland. Hell, I buy/like Nightwish CD's.

I know NOTHING ELSE about Finland, but you apparently know something about the U.S. that I do not. What is our problem RIGHT NOW?

Envy should not be your excuse for not bettering yourself. It should be what MOTIVATES you to do better! NOBODY is holding you back. At least not here in the U.S.
Are you wanting to get banned? All you are doing is flaming and calling anyone who isn't purely a capitalist envious. You have any idea how asanine this is? What if Bill Gates believed in socialism? Who the hell is he envious of?

I don't have a problem with Finland. Hell, I buy/like Nightwish CD's.

I know NOTHING ELSE about Finland, but you apparently know something about the U.S. that I do not. What is our problem RIGHT NOW?

I like your sidestep, but that has nothing to do with the matter at hand. Now please answer the question, without dodging this time: If both sides are amicable to the agreement, how can there be a problem?

And I don't recall saying anywhere the USA has a problem. :rolleyes: In fact, I don't recall mentioning the USA anywhere in my messages. Now, please answer the question.

Much thanks.

I'm not envious of a person with a shitty work ethic.
You're an idiot. I know really rich people that work really hard. The money they have has no base in my judgment of a person. The thing I don't like is that richer people (who didn't work for their money) tend to have a shittier work ethic, but poor people can have this flaw too. If you have a good work ethic, I have no problem with you. If you have a bad work ethic, and I have to take up for your slack and get paid the same as you, I'm not going to be too happy.
Something escapes me. If you have had bad work ethic, how did you make so much money in the first place? Barring inheritances and lotteries of course.

And by the way, back to you accusing me with the moderators. Should I accuse you for using cuss words? I won't because I'm not a prick. But just bringing that to your attention also;-)

Are you wanting to get banned? All you are doing is flaming and calling anyone who isn't purely a capitalist envious. You have any idea how asanine this is? What if Bill Gates believed in socialism? Who the hell is he envious of?
He'd be a hypocrite; which he probably is. He is where is BECAUSE of the free market economy. ANd by the way, if I hadn't made it clear, I am talking as to how this pertains to the U.S. and not other countries.

I like your sidestep, but that has nothing to do with the matter at hand. Now please answer the question, without dodging this time: If both sides are amicable to the agreement, how can there be a problem?

And I don't recall saying anywhere the USA has a problem. :rolleyes: In fact, I don't recall mentioning the USA anywhere in my messages. Now, please answer the question.

Much thanks.
Sure, there is an ammicable agreement in Finland. And that is fine if you like it. However, here in the US...and THIS IS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. There is no such thing! This is what the whole arguement is about. 50% of the U.S. population agrees, 50% does not. Maybe you'd like me to start a new thread about Socialism/Capitalism being better IN THE UNITED STATES.

And by the way, back to you accusing me with the moderators. Should I accuse you for using cuss words? I won't because I'm not a prick. But just bringing that to your attention also;-)
Yes, you should accuse me of using cuss words. I am using cuss words, however, the moderators have stated that as long as it is done in jest and not just outright cussing for no reason, they're not going to care a whole lot. Besides, I'm not flaming anyone like you.

Something escapes me. If you have had bad work ethic, how did you make so much money in the first place? Barring inheritances and lotteries of course.
I don't have a bad work ethic. Plus, I get paid $5.40/hr. It is my fellow employee that has a terrible work ethic. Working with him is more like babysitting and he made money because his parents are rich (and possibly worked for their money). He didn't have to work for the money they give to him to buy his video games and stuff so why would he value the importance of work?

He'd be a hypocrite; which he probably is. He is where is BECAUSE of the free market economy. ANd by the way, if I hadn't made it clear, I am talking as to how this pertains to the U.S. and not other countries.
Then to be clear, Bill Gates is an American.
And to be even more clear, Bill Gates is quite obviously a hypocrite then. He willingly donates some of his money to charities for needy people. That, in essence, is socialism.

Sure, there is an ammicable agreement in Finland. And that is fine if you like it. However, here in the US...and THIS IS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. There is no such thing! This is what the whole arguement is about. 50% of the U.S. population agrees, 50% does not. Maybe you'd like me to start a new thread about Socialism/Capitalism being better IN THE UNITED STATES.

I'd just like to know how Finland got in to this topic at all. :rolleyes: And yes, I think it would be better to start a new topic if you plan to exclude all parts of the world other than the USA. After all, this topic was not created with that intent (in so far as I can tell).

It was simply created to discuss the nature of socialism, period. Not socialism in the USA. That was a thread hijack.

Yes, you should accuse me of using cuss words. I am using cuss words, however, the moderators have stated that as long as it is done in jest and not just outright cussing for no reason, they're not going to care a whole lot. Besides, I'm not flaming anyone like you.


I don't have a bad work ethic. Plus, I get paid $5.40/hr. It is my fellow employee that has a terrible work ethic. Working with him is more like babysitting and he made money because his parents are rich (and possibly worked for their money). He didn't have to work for the money they give to him to buy his video games and stuff so why would he value the importance of work?
So then your friend DIDN'T MAKE ANY MONEYy. HE'S JUST LUCKY to have rich parents. So you aren't envious of him or his parents then? This is the reason that inheritances should be illegal huh?

And who am I "flaming" exactly? You must excuse me but I'm not even sure what EXACTLY a flame is as contrary to popular belief I don't spend ALL my time on this site. Why, at the rate of socialist/communist threads pop up on this board, and as fast as I post I'd be the spam queen and not you.

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Oops. I must have mistyped it. Try http://eprints.ouls.ox.ac.uk:81/eursoj/hdb/Volume_17/Issue_02/abstracts/170081.sgm (It should be a downloadble file.)


However, here in the US...and THIS IS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. There is no such thing! This is what the whole arguement is about. 50% of the U.S. population agrees, 50% does not. Maybe you'd like me to start a new thread about Socialism/Capitalism being better IN THE UNITED STATES.This is an international forum. There is nothing in the thread title that suggests this thread is US specific. But if you want to talk about the US provide us with some figures to show that there is real social mobility IN THE UNITED STATES.

I'd just like to know how Finland got in to this topic at all. :rolleyes: And yes, I think it would be better to start a new topic if you plan to exclude all parts of the world other than the USA. After all, this topic was not created with that intent (in so far as I can tell).

It was simply created to discuss the nature of socialism, period. Not socialism in the USA. That was a thread hijack.
No, I'm not going to spend more time on this.

And if I remember correctly, you're the one who put Finland in it my friend.

So then your friend DIDN'T MAKE ANY MONEYy. HE'S JUST LUCKY to have rich parents. So you aren't envious of him or his parents then? This is the reason that inheritances should be illegal huh?

And who am I "flaming" exactly? You must excuse me but I'm not even sure what EXACTLY a flame is as contrary to popular belief I don't spend ALL my time on this site. Why, at the rate of socialist/communist threads pop up on this board, and as fast as I post I'd be the spam queen and not you.
I'm not envious of him or his parents. I'm pissed off at his crappy work ethic that makes me have to do twice as much work and get paid the same as him. God, can't you see this? I'd be pissed off just as much if his parents were poor...
I'm only saying that being born rich has a tendency to make you not value work as much. If you are able to be rich and maintain a good work ethic, then I've got no problem with that. Aguila, please read all of this post before you say another word because this is like the third time I've said the same thing. You're not reading it obviously.

Oops. I must have mistyped it. Try http://eprints.ouls.ox.ac.uk:81/eursoj/hdb/Volume_17/Issue_02/abstracts/170081.sgm (It should be a downloadble file.)


This is an international forum. There is nothing in the thread title that suggests this thread is US specific. But if you want to talk about the US provide us with some figures to show that there is real social mobility IN THE UNITED STATES.
John Kerry and the Democrats is as much mobility as you need. They are for redistribution of wealth, for asking permission from anyone to do anything, for socialising medicine, for more government control in business, for higher taxation for social programs...what more do you need?

I'm not envious of him or his parents. I'm pissed off at his crappy work ethic that makes me have to do twice as much work and get paid the same as him. God, can't you see this? I'd be pissed off just as much if his parents were poor...
I'm only saying that being born rich has a tendency to make you not value work as much. If you are able to be rich and maintain a good work ethic, then I've got no problem with that. Aguila, please read all of this post before you say another word because this is like the third time I've said the same thing. You're not reading it obviously.
Maybe you should tell his parents...start a crusade. Maybe they can discipline him? Seriously. If I was his parents I would want to know. Maybe you can get them to exclude him from his will. Afterall, with his terrible work ethic he might just squander all that money. Seriously!

In addition...and not meant as a "flame," if he's so rich, why is he working at all? It seems his parents DO CARE about him having a work ethic. Maybe it's your job to help him.

No, I'm not going to spend more time on this.

And if I remember correctly, you're the one who put Finland in it my friend.

Quote where I mention Finland. :rolleyes: I said I lived in a mostly socialist nation. You took it upon yourself to bring up the fact that you had never been to Finland. Let me refresh your memory.

Care to add some context to what that is being applied to? :rolleyes: See, I live in a (pretty much) socialist nation. I've known people who are both poor, and well off. While nobody cares for people who purposely abuse the system (even if they are poor themselves), I've yet to meet anyone here who is actually against the principles of socialism, or who feels they are being robbed.

In short, the system isn't being forced on the country. The country supports the system, even those whom don't benefit from it. There is no stealing. People are willingly helping other people.

And you followed with:

It simple. The same way you view our world we can view yours.

I believe I'm right and you believe you're right. I really cannot take this conversation up with you because I've never been to Finland. I have been to other "socialist" countries however. I have found envy to be the underlying problem

But I suppose it doesn't matter, since you are not spending any more time on this. That's fine by me. ;)

ANYWAY, to make everyone happy, and since I have other things to do, I'll leave the thread now;-) Don't expect me back either. I encourage you ALL to try and get me banned based on what I have written. Then there would NO civil liberties in this forum. I have marely stated my opinion that I arrogantly believe as the truth. You have also stated your opinion which you also arrogantly believe is the truth back at me.

I bid all of you good day!

ANYWAY, to make everyone happy, and since I have other things to do, I'll leave the thread now;-) Don't expect me back either. I encourage you ALL to try and get me banned based on what I have written. Then there would NO civil liberties in this forum. I have marely stated my opinion that I arrogantly believe as the truth. You have also stated your opinion which you also arrogantly believe is the truth back at me.

I bid all of you good day!

Of course there would be civil liberties, not that those apply to a private enterprise. :rolleyes: After all, you asked us to ban you. That wouldn't be denying anyone any liberties, other than those you have chosen to forfeit.

Bye bye now. :p

John Kerry and the Democrats is as much mobility as you need. They are for redistribution of wealth, for asking permission from anyone to do anything, for socialising medicine, for more government control in business, for higher taxation for social programs...what more do you need?
What more do I need? Some real statistics like I provided you instead of a series of unsubstantiated slogans would be nice. I won't hold my breath though.

ANYWAY, to make everyone happy, and since I have other things to do, I'll leave the thread nowEl Aguila- the brave Sir Robin of the General Forum. :D

Of course there would be civil liberties, not that those apply to a private enterprise. :rolleyes: After all, you asked us to ban you. That wouldn't be denying anyone any liberties, other than those you have chosen to forfeit.

Bye bye now. :p
I CHALLENGED YOU to have me banned. I never said I wanted to be banned.

Of course if I was, it would just reaffirm my beliefs. Wow, my ego! I guess I am a threat! I'm gonna run for office!

But I said I would leave so I will...you must admit this has all been quite thrilling for all of us. I'm about to have a heart attack;-)

You didn't challenge, you encouraged. One can safely assume that if you encourage someone towards an action, you want them to take that action. And if you want the action (banning you) to be taken, one can safely infer that you want to be banned.

But in any event, good day to you. :p

Socialism is the best.
Freedom is better.

Freedom is better.

Political freedom, personal freedom, financial freedom, religious freedom, the freedom to do whatever we please, etc... what kind of freedom are we referring to? There are many kinds of freedom.

Political freedom, personal freedom, financial freedom, religious freedom, the freedom to do whatever we please, etc... what kind of freedom are we referring to? There are many kinds of freedom.

Freedom is only "better" if it is tempared with responsability, wisdom and forthought. It is worthless otherwise.

Freedom is better.

Most European coutries (UK, France, Germany, Spain etc) have some Socialist elements in them, like Free health care, not exercuting it's citerzens (America is the only western democratic country that still kills it's own citerzens) good levels of social welfare. Ypu can be Socialist and free.