NationStates Jolt Archive

Bush and his right-wing cronies are screwing up America. I fear that, if he wins in 2004, we may set up a tradition of extremism on both sides. I don't want that. I'm a Conservative, yes, but Bush refuses to work, for the most part, with the liberals, and the libs refuse to work with W. This nation is far too polarized. So, I'm probably going to head to Canada. Any advice?

Bush and his right-wing cronies are screwing up America. I fear that, if he wins in 2004, we may set up a tradition of extremism on both sides. I don't want that. I'm a Conservative, yes, but Bush refuses to work, for the most part, with the liberals, and the libs refuse to work with W. This nation is far too polarized. So, I'm probably going to head to Canada. Any advice?

Start applying for canadian citizenship ASAP

how do you start threads coz i want to say stuffClick the New Post button

Start applying for canadian citizenship ASAP

I would, but I'm in High School. Ah well, perhaps I'll go to college in Canada.

I am very Republican but I do have to agree this country has become EXTREMELY partisan and its mainly because the democratic party has the normal democrats who are moderate to left then they have the they SUPER LIB COMMIES. The super lib commies are the problem because they would vote for the devil to beat Bush in the election and they refuse to work with the republicans and some of the democrats.

In my mind, Canadian conservatives seem to be my type of Conservative. That's what we need- more John McCains and less George Ws.

So, I'm probably going to head to Canada. Any advice?

Quebec ownz!! That is, if you speak French, or French-Canadian French for that matter.

'Fraid I don't. I speak English very well indeed, but no French whatsoever.

'Fraid I don't. I speak English very well indeed, but no French whatsoever.

A good few of the French Canadians speak English as well

If Conan O Brien has thought me anything, its that Quebecers are hilarious. :p

I am very Republican but I do have to agree this country has become EXTREMELY partisan and its mainly because the democratic party has the normal democrats who are moderate to left then they have the they SUPER LIB COMMIES. The super lib commies are the problem because they would vote for the devil to beat Bush in the election and they refuse to work with the republicans and some of the democrats.
Well to balance out the "SUPER LIB COMMIES", you have the "SUPER NEO-CON FASCISTS". It all balances out.

Oh well. Just remember that you only have to "live" (live:have a house) in Canada for four years, and of those four years you have to spend three in Canada to apply for Canadian citizenship. Depending on how things go, I'm out of America when I turn 18 and I'll be able to apply for citizenship when I turn 24. Whoo.

Bush and his right-wing cronies are screwing up America. I fear that, if he wins in 2004, we may set up a tradition of extremism on both sides. I don't want that. I'm a Conservative, yes, but Bush refuses to work, for the most part, with the liberals, and the libs refuse to work with W. This nation is far too polarized. So, I'm probably going to head to Canada. Any advice?
As much as we would like to have you live in Canada, I hate to inform you that we have our quota of "Conservatives" at the present time, so you will have to wait until we can get a few more to emigrate or be converted to Liberals.

As much as we would like to have you live in Canada, I hate to inform you that we have our quota of "Conservatives" at the present time, so you will have to wait until we can get a few more to emigrate or be converted to Liberals.
*high-five*

As much as we would like to have you live in Canada, I hate to inform you that we have our quota of "Conservatives" at the present time, so you will have to wait until we can get a few more to emigrate or be converted to Liberals.

our conservatives are real conservatives though

not idiots with hidden value based agendas

our conservatives are real conservatives though

not idiots with hidden value based agendas
Yet they're still Conservatives, regardless if they're actually conservatives or not. It's all in the bloody name. Please, let's not discuss politics here to any greater extent than we already have.

Consider Australia! but wait until we kick out the Liberal Party (who are really Bush-ian Conservatives) who seem to be making Australia the 51st state of the US.

Yet they're still Conservatives, regardless if they're actually conservatives or not. It's all in the bloody name. Please, let's not discuss politics here to any greater extent than we already have.

so you are basically saying that conservatism in all of its forms is bad.

so you are basically saying that conservatism in all of its forms is bad.
No, I didn't. I mean to say that usually, Conservatives are worse—far more so than Liberals (yes, I have a bias)—than their counterparts, and unless the definition for a Conservative changes yet again, I will likely continue to keep thinking as I think.

Oops, didn't mean to get political. I hate political arguements. Nothing ever gets achieved.

No, I didn't. I mean to say that usually, Conservatives are worse—far more so than Liberals (yes, I have a bias)—than their counterparts, and unless the definition for a Conservative changes yet again, I will likely continue to keep thinking as I think.

Oops, didn't mean to get political. I hate political arguements. Nothing ever gets achieved.

im not going to try to change your opinion

just remeber to remove the ideology from the people who sling it. Modern politics is a joke.

Conservative ideology has many pros that you cant overlook, just because some are gun toating fundamentalist insane-o's

As much as we would like to have you live in Canada, I hate to inform you that we have our quota of "Conservatives" at the present time, so you will have to wait until we can get a few more to emigrate or be converted to Liberals.

But here's the thing- I'm not the Conservative you probably think I am. I'm a known critic of the Bush Administration, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, etc. In reality, I am probably more a moderate with leanings to the right. However, I do support some liberal ideas (raising minimum wage, abortion, decriminalizing pot), while supporting many Conservative ideals (smaller government, less taxes, strong military, etc.) Infact, you might even call me a Neo-liberal -here's the link that explains-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism

so you are basically saying that conservatism in all of its forms is bad.

Fiscal conservatism is a good thing, as long as it's not taken too far and we still provide for people who can't for themselves. A hand up is not always a hand out. However, social conservatism is bad because quite frankly the government has no business telling law abiding citizens how they should live their lives and what they should do with their bodies. Or who they can and can't marry. One would think the government would have better more important things to do then meddle in people's lives. That is my feelings on it.

Bump

'Fraid I don't. I speak English very well indeed, but no French whatsoever.

You're still going to have a little trouble understanding us here ;)

Canada's great though, just make sure when someone finds out you are from the US you indicate you moved here for political reasons... We generally dont like GW Bush up here in Canada...

But here's the thing- I'm not the Conservative you probably think I am. I'm a known critic of the Bush Administration, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, etc. In reality, I am probably more a moderate with leanings to the right. However, I do support some liberal ideas (raising minimum wage, abortion, decriminalizing pot), while supporting many Conservative ideals (smaller government, less taxes, strong military, etc.) Infact, you might even call me a Neo-liberal -here's the link that explains-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism
*CanuckHeaven" grabs Sevaris, and says welcome to Canada, while thrusting a maple leaf flag in his hand.

Any Conservative who is a "critic of the Bush Administration, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, etc.", is my kind of people.

Enjoy your stay in Canada!!

Whats this? Liberals getting discouraged and moving to Canada? oh good, can I help you pack your bags? I'll even shed a fake tear if you want

*Yawn* I have things easy on this one...

I have a dual-citizenship (I actually have an American passport and a Canadian citizenship card :P)

So basically if I don't like the way things are going in the U.S, I'll just renounce my American Citizenship, and if I like it, I'll renounce my Canadian, or I can just leave things be and keep both :)

I would, but I'm in High School. Ah well, perhaps I'll go to college in Canada.

We call them universities up here.

You better like hockey, or else. *shakes fists*

HAHA, a conservative leaving the US because it is too partisan here. Apparently you don't know too much about Canadian politics.

I am very Republican but I do have to agree this country has become EXTREMELY partisan and its mainly because the democratic party has the normal democrats who are moderate to left then they have the they SUPER LIB COMMIES. The super lib commies are the problem because they would vote for the devil to beat Bush in the election and they refuse to work with the republicans and some of the democrats.
I agreed with you up to the "SUPER LIB COMMIES" part. I'm not a Democrat, or American, but I'm pretty sure that there are no communists in that party. I mean it's just BS. Like when some of the flamier liberals say that the Republicans are Nazis. That's BS too.

I would, but I'm in High School. Ah well, perhaps I'll go to college in Canada.

we have some great schools up here.

though they charge you an arm and a leg if you're not a landed immigrant or citizen.

i would figure out what it takes to be a landed immigrant before paying 4x tuition.

Whats this? Liberals getting discouraged and moving to Canada? oh good, can I help you pack your bags? I'll even shed a fake tear if you want

he's a conservative. learn to read.

HAHA, a conservative leaving the US because it is too partisan here. Apparently you don't know too much about Canadian politics.

how is this more partisan than in the u.s.? i'd say it's much less so, and hey, we have more than two options on the ballot.

how is this more partisan than in the u.s.? i'd say it's much less so, and hey, we have more than two options on the ballot.

And that means it is less partisan? During the last election the Canadian media was so shamelessly anti-Harper it reminded me of Indymedia.

P.S. The NDP and BQ are not sane options.

Is Bowling for Columbine right about Canada though? There's no slums whatsoever?

Bush and his right-wing cronies are screwing up America. I fear that, if he wins in 2004, we may set up a tradition of extremism on both sides. I don't want that. I'm a Conservative, yes, but Bush refuses to work, for the most part, with the liberals, and the libs refuse to work with W. This nation is far too polarized. So, I'm probably going to head to Canada. Any advice?

Advice?
Yeah....go study up on your facts.
Bush "refuses to work with the liberals"??
Bush has worked TOO much with the liberals, which is why Bush's conservative base is so pissed at him.
Who did Bush let write his education bill?......Ted Kennedy.

Another piece of advice?
Don't let the door hit you in the ass....and don't be crying to come back home when you need major surgery.
:rolleyes:

how is this more partisan than in the u.s.? i'd say it's much less so, and hey, we have more than two options on the ballot.
FINALLY! Someone who believes that there's more than two options in Canadian politics. Maybe this minority government thing we've got right now is going to change people's minds about only voting for the Liberals or the Conservatives. We've got an independant MP in the house of Commons and the NDP or Bloc Quebecois with the balance of power. You know what this means, don't you? Compromise.... or an election in five months.

Is Bowling for Columbine right about Canada though? There's no slums whatsoever?

100% bullshit I live a block away from a slum (its called Macintire but every calls it Crackintire)

Sorry but I usually go right to the end of threads since I don't have time to read through all the posts.

and don't be crying to come back home when you need major surgery.
:rolleyes:


What the HELL do you meen by that?!

Don't let the door hit you in the ass....and don't be crying to come back home when you need major surgery.
:rolleyes:
Right, because Canada has such a bad healthcare system, that has no public fundng, and hence patients are forced to foot the huge bills that go with treatments.... oh, wait. That's not Canada I'm thinking of. Never mind.

Right, because Canada has such a bad healthcare system, that has no public fundng, and hence patients are forced to foot the huge bills that go with treatments.... oh, wait. That's not Canada I'm thinking of. Never mind.

I had to wait so long to get my broken arm set it started healing incorrectly and the surgeon had to rebreak it to set it right.

I had to wait so long to get my broken arm set it started healing incorrectly and the surgeon had to rebreak it to set it right.


That fucken sucks dude

I had to wait so long to get my broken arm set it started healing incorrectly and the surgeon had to rebreak it to set it right.
And how much did that surgery cost you? Rough estimate? Dollars and cents here. My point was not that Canada has a flawless healthcare system, but why in the world would someone want to go to the US for a costly major surgery when healthcare is publicly funded in Canada?

Bah, that's just an exampe of the worst of it.

When I broke a finger (you can't get much more minor than that) I had X-rays done and had it put in a cast within about four hours of when I broke it, there's a good example of Canadian health care.

And how much did that surgery cost you? Rough estimate? Dollars and cents here.

Before I moved to the US, all the money I earned from the beginning of the year to the middle of Februrary went to funding the bloated single-payer healthcare system.

which is more important "yer money or yer life"? I have heard of people in canada who needed a surgery to live but had to wait so long they died. Personally I'd rather be alive.

As an American, I really don't know much about canadian politics. So, although this forum isnt suppoed to get all political, I was just wondering... what's the political situation in Canada? Like, is it libral, conservative, pretty moderate, what?

And yeah, I know I should just look it up, but, you know... lazy...

And that means it is less partisan? During the last election the Canadian media was so shamelessly anti-Harper it reminded me of Indymedia.

P.S. The NDP and BQ are not sane options.


man you really don't know what your talking about

As an American, I really don't know much about canadian politics. So, although this forum isnt suppoed to get all political, I was just wondering... what's the political situation in Canada? Like, is it libral, conservative, pretty moderate, what?

And yeah, I know I should just look it up, but, you know... lazy...


Its genaraly left of center in the west (asepsly alberta) is more right but some places its hard core Libreal almost borderlining on Communist

A good few of the French Canadians speak English as well
So I've heard. I'm going to a trip tomorrow to Quebec, but from what I know, most people speak English there. It's a bilingual province.

If you're interested in moving to Canada, you'd probably be best in Toronto, Ontario, because it's the only place remotely close to the US. Everywhere else is BORING. Trees and rocks and rocks and trees abound.

"Trees and rocks, rocks and trees..."

which is more important "yer money or yer life"? I have heard of people in canada who needed a surgery to live but had to wait so long they died. Personally I'd rather be alive.
And I've "heard of people" in the United States that died because they didn't have Health insurance, and couldn't afford treatment. There were about 20 million people uninsured, last I checked. I don't mind people who can afford the cost paying for treatment, but what about those that can't? They're just left to die? Privatization would just encourage better treatment for the rich, and money hardly makes one person's health and life worth more than another's.

And I've "heard of people" in the United States that died because they didn't have Health insurance, and couldn't afford treatment. There were about 20 million people uninsured, last I checked. I don't mind people who can afford the cost paying for treatment, but what about those that can't? They're just left to die? Privatization would just encourage better treatment for the rich, and money hardly makes one person's health and life worth more than another's.

You don't seem to realize... government healthcare is not free.

P.S. The NDP and BQ are not sane options.
The Bloc Quebecois: Has no other ideas but to separate Quebec from Canada, but they'll never succeed because all of their seats are in Quebec (which will never make a majority without a miracle) and people are starting to realise that separation is pointless.
The New Democratic Party: Extremist liberal, and extremists are never good.

You don't seem to realize... government healthcare is not free.
I realize that healthcare is not free, but rather than the burden of paying for treatment falling on the people that are most in need; those who are ill, it would be best that service is available for all people, rather than only those that are insured. I'm willing to see as many of my tax dollars going to healthcare as is necessary if that means treatment will be available for me if I'm down on my luck. Privatization just opens the doorway for a two tier system, though, and that's bullshit. However, you're right that I do tend to get caught up in my own arguments, and I'll apologize for that because the discussion really shouldn't be some childish pissing contest. I'll try to be less confrontational and throw less rhetoric your way. It's obviously a difficult and complicated issue, and there are problems no matter which way you look at it.

I realize that healthcare is not free, but rather than the burden of paying for treatment falling on the people that are most in need; those who are ill, it would be best that service is available for all people, rather than only those that are insured. I'm willing to see as many of my tax dollars going to healthcare as is necessary if that means treatment will be available for me if I'm down on my luck. Privatization just opens the doorway for a two tier system, though, and that's bullshit. However, you're right that I do tend to get caught up in my own arguments, and I'll apologize for that because the discussion really shouldn't be some childish pissing contest. I'll try to be less confrontational and throw less rhetoric your way. It's obviously a difficult and complicated issue, and there are problems no matter which way you look at it.

No, it's pretty easy actually. Basic healthcare in the US is quite affordable, and I'm not willing to lose another month or two of pay every year to fund a bloated, easily abused, unaccountable single-payer healthcare system. Nor do a vast majority of Americans, for that matter.

The Bloc Quebecois: Has no other ideas but to separate Quebec from Canada, but they'll never succeed because all of their seats are in Quebec (which will never make a majority without a miracle) and people are starting to realise that separation is pointless.
The New Democratic Party: Extremist liberal, and extremists are never good.
I'll agree with you that neither of these parties should form majority governments, but as things stand right now, they could each hold the balance of power, and therefore influence government policy. They could help to steer the country in a different direction, which could benefit everyone (or at least the French, if we're dealing with the Bloc). Compromise... it's why I support a workable minority government. Why can't we all just get along?
Besides, the NDP had some good ideas. They helped to pioneer a public healthcare system, which is running into some trouble now, but can still be pretty good for us.

No, it's pretty easy actually. Basic healthcare in the US is quite affordable, and I'm not willing to lose another month or two of pay every year to fund a bloated, easily abused, unaccountable single-payer healthcare system. Nor do a vast majority of Americans, for that matter.

Well it enjoys me that it is quite affordable for most (?)in the US.

But i still prefer my system in wich about 70% of your doctors consultatian is payed back by the mutuality. A lot of problems here to, you know, the costs for the elderly are going up and the youngsters are working for them (our parents and grandparents that raised us), biggest problem here will be:

1. Are we as sociale to our parents as they where to us?
2. Is our structure abble to deal with all those modern costs, that only will increase.
3. Is it healthy to have a economy that pays for the pension of the elderly.
4. What do we want? Sollidarity or everybody for themselves in the private sector.

Important questions for the old EU 15 countries.

No, it's pretty easy actually. Basic healthcare in the US is quite affordable, and I'm not willing to lose another month or two of pay every year to fund a bloated, easily abused, unaccountable single-payer healthcare system. Nor do a vast majority of Americans, for that matter.
Just to make sure we're on the same page here: when you talk about basic healthcare, what exactly is "basic", and what exactly is "quite affordable". I don't deal with the American system, so explain these a bit more clearly so I can form a more educated opinion, if you don't mind. Does "basic healthcare" refer to going into the hospital occassionally for minor injuries, or something else entirely, and do the "quite affordable" costs go up if you need more treatment, or have more serious ailments? I'm just trying to be clear on these points, and the terms you used are a bit too vague for me to understand entirely.

No, it's pretty easy actually. Basic healthcare in the US is quite affordable, and I'm not willing to lose another month or two of pay every year to fund a bloated, easily abused, unaccountable single-payer healthcare system. Nor do a vast majority of Americans, for that matter.
Privatization can also be easily abused as well. Think about all of the people who can't afford healthcare. Sure, they may be drunkards and addicts and unusually lazy and not deserving of life (in my opinion, they got there for a reason), but we've got to pretend that's not true if we want to be democratic. For people with high salaries, they'll be losing a lot more money than they'd have to spend for healthcare normally, but they'll still be rich anyway, so it's not much of a problem. The most burden falls on those who can handle the most.

Just to make sure we're on the same page here: when you talk about basic healthcare, what exactly is "basic", and what exactly is "quite affordable". I don't deal with the American system, so explain these a bit more clearly so I can form a more educated opinion, if you don't mind. Does "basic healthcare" refer to going into the hospital occassionally for minor injuries, or something else entirely, and do the "quite affordable" costs go up if you need more treatment, or have more serious ailments? I'm just trying to be clear on these points, and the terms you used are a bit too vague for me to understand entirely.

Basic care is non-specialist treatment, the type of medical care given in the vast majority of medical cases. Affordable means virtually anyone can afford it.

Privatization can also be easily abused as well. Think about all of the people who can't afford healthcare. Sure, they may be drunkards and addicts and unusually lazy and not deserving of life (in my opinion, they got there for a reason), but we've got to pretend that's not true if we want to be democratic. For people with high salaries, they'll be losing a lot more money than they'd have to spend for healthcare normally, but they'll still be rich anyway, so it's not much of a problem. The most burden falls on those who can handle the most.

Excuse me, but Hillarycare, if it was passed in 1993, would cost me plenty a year in taxes. And I'm not exactly rich.

Bush is not a Conservative, real conservatists will not vote for him.
Real conservatists or patriots don't lika a person that sells his country at the industrial anti US buddies. Guess that the decent conservatists will vote Dem now. Ok the Rummy&Cheney&Pearl people will still vote for their $, but a classic conservative (like most that I've met in Europe "Republicans abroad") won't vote for this puppet again. No wuries, you'll get a democracy that respects the rules, again. Go US PEOPLE, Go, you'll winn, just vote!

Excuse me, but Hillarycare, if it was passed in 1993, would cost me plenty a year in taxes. And I'm not exactly rich.
Why is it not so much of a problem in Canada, then? I'd assume because we have less people, but the ratio of taxpayers to people who'd get healthcare is similar in both countries.

You don't seem to realize... government healthcare is not free.
Actually it is free.

Before I moved to the US, all the money I earned from the beginning of the year to the middle of Februrary went to funding the bloated single-payer healthcare system.
I understand that it costs about $10 thousand USD for an average health care package in the US?

Actually it is free.

Heh. Read the thread.

Its genaraly left of center in the west (asepsly alberta) is more right but some places its hard core Libreal almost borderlining on Communist
You certainly don't know much about Canada.LOL :eek:

Heh. Read the thread.
I did read the thread and you were suggesting there was a cost to health care in Canada? It is universal health care for ALL Canadian citizens.

You certainly don't know much about Canada.LOL :eek:


funny consityry I LIVE here

funny consityry I LIVE here
Well you are how old? What is "consityry", a new word?

dont insukt my spelling I cant help that (brane problem) and im 16

I understand that it costs about $10 thousand USD for an average health care package in the US?

LOL! That's funny.

FYI, the evil corporation I work for gives me full medical and dental.

LOL! That's funny.

FYI, the evil corporation I work for gives me full medical and dental.
I understand that those type of jobs are harder and harder to find, at least according to the articles I have read. BTW, there are 43 Million Americans without basic health insurance.

dont insukt my spelling I cant help that (brane problem) and im 16
Well most of the western Canadians are NOT left of center. Alberta was almost totally Conservative, except for 2 Liberal seats. And there are no borderline Communist Liberals. So you really don't know what you are talking about?

I understand that those type of jobs are harder and harder to find, at least according to the articles I have read. BTW, there are 43 Million Americans without basic health insurance.

What a great metric to measure healthcare coverage. Just because a person doesn't have insurance it doesn't mean they can't get medical care. Compare Canada, where everyone is forced to use the gutter-quality single-payer system and pay a huge premium to boot. No thanks.

"in the west (asepsly alberta) is more right"

Did you read mt post?

What a great metric to measure healthcare coverage. Just because a person doesn't have insurance it doesn't mean they can't get medical care.
Then why do they bother reporting those statistics? What happens to US citizens when they go to the hospital and have NO health insurance?

Compare Canada, where everyone is forced to use the gutter-quality single-payer system and pay a huge premium to boot. No thanks.Gutter quality? Please explain what you mean by that?

What HUGE premium do you refer to?

Sevaris, On the behalf of all REAL Conservatives in the USA...GET THE HELL OUT OF OUR COUNTRY NOW!! You are no longer welcome here! LEAVE! I have been upset at this country plenty of times, But i would never leave, I will stay and try to fix our problems.

"in the west (asepsly alberta) is more right"

Did you read mt post?
To be honest with you, it was barely intelligible, and certainly not factual.

Then why do they bother reporting those statistics?

Liberal political propaganda. Duh.

Gutter quality? Please explain what you mean by that?

That means it sucks ass.

What HUGE premium do you refer to?

Um, taxes? Is it a surprise that a lot of people who support the "free" healtcare system don't hold a job and probably live in their mom's basement?

To be honest with you, it was barely intelligible, and certainly not factual.


what was not factual about it?

Ummm Pan Arab Israel, you avoided this question:

What happens to US citizens when they go to the hospital and have NO health insurance?

Ummm Pan Arab Israel, you avoided this question:

What happens to US citizens when they go to the hospital and have NO health insurance?

They pay their own way? It is still illegal for hospitals to refuse care, just so you know.

Sevaris, On the behalf of all REAL Conservatives in the USA...GET THE HELL OUT OF OUR COUNTRY NOW!! You are no longer welcome here! LEAVE! I have been upset at this country plenty of times, But i would never leave, I will stay and try to fix our problems.

I am a REAL conservative. I realize that America is VERY screwed up. Our democratic processes have tried to fix this for years, but Bush has dealt America a reeling blow. I will always hope for America's return to what it meant. However, America is no longer my America. It's the Corporate America.

Liberal political propaganda. Duh.
Oh so most people don't care that 43 Million Americans have no basic health care and it is only propaganda?


That means it sucks ass.
How does it suck ass?

Um, taxes? Is it a surprise that a lot of people who support the "free" healtcare system don't hold a job and probably live in their mom's basement?
I support "free" healthcare system and I work for a living. So a part of my taxes goes towards a universal health care system. Some people cannot afford healthcare and they are provided for. You have a problem with that fact?

I am a REAL conservative. I realize that America is VERY screwed up. Our democratic processes have tried to fix this for years, but Bush has dealt America a reeling blow. I will always hope for America's return to what it meant. However, America is no longer my America. It's the Corporate America.

Did your high school teacher tell you that? Grow up kid.

They pay their own way? It is still illegal for hospitals to refuse care, just so you know.

He's right. That is wrong. I'm an advocate of not health-care for all, but health-care for the percentage of Americans who can't afford it. That works best for America. Perhaps not Canada, but it would seem to work for America.

Bush and his right-wing cronies are screwing up America. I fear that, if he wins in 2004, we may set up a tradition of extremism on both sides. I don't want that. I'm a Conservative, yes, but Bush refuses to work, for the most part, with the liberals, and the libs refuse to work with W. This nation is far too polarized. So, I'm probably going to head to Canada. Any advice?


Congrats. It's what I'd do if I were older. :)

They pay their own way? It is still illegal for hospitals to refuse care, just so you know.
So if they don't have any money then they get free healthcare?

Ok then, why should anyone bother getting insurance?

Did your high school teacher tell you that? Grow up kid.

Ahem- it's my own opinion. Bush ruined this country in one way or another. Look- he's driving America further into economic and political hell. I admire the man's patriotism, but he's gone too far. He has alienated our friends, abandoned the international community, and he's divided America on political lines. The moderates are being squeezed out.

Oh so most people don't care that 43 Million Americans have no basic health care and it is only propaganda?

It is a useless metric.

How does it suck ass?

Lack of personnel, training and equipment. Long wait times and refusal of care due to queues. Doctors are leaving Canada much like the mass flight of the technically savvy. All that and it only costs one-third of Canada's tax revenues.

I support "free" healthcare system and I work for a living. So a part of my taxes goes towards a universal health care system. Some people cannot afford healthcare and they are provided for. You have a problem with that fact?

Not at all. But you could at least admit that your "universal healthcare system" blows and a lot of your money goes into a bureaucratic black hole.

Ahem- it's my own opinion. Bush ruined this country in one way or another. Look- he's driving America further into economic and political hell. I admire the man's patriotism, but he's gone too far.

The last recession started while Clinton was still in office and would have started earlier if the tech boom did not occur. The economy is already on the upturn. As for political hell and the moderates being squeezed out, I fail to see how this election is any more partisan than the last one.

He has alienated our friends, abandoned the international community.

Who gives a shit about the "international community"?

So if they don't have any money then they get free healthcare?

Maybe. But very few people in America have no money, and most of the ones who have no money pissed it away with their own stupidity.

Ok then, why should anyone bother getting insurance?

Health Insurance is a way to offset the cost of frequent medical attention. A lot of people here don't get health insurance because they never go to a doctor anyway. That's why the insurance coverage metric is bullshit.

Maybe. But very few people in America have no money, and most of the ones who have no money pissed it away with their own stupidity.
America has the highest poverty rate among the 17 OECD countries. I would suggest that that is an awful lot of Americans without money. What happens if these people need a doctor? Is the death rate higher amongst those without medical insurance than those with?

Health Insurance is a way to offset the cost of frequent medical attention. A lot of people here don't get health insurance because they never go to a doctor anyway. That's why the insurance coverage metric is bullshit.
So if a lot of these people don't go to a doctor then early detection of cancer and heart problems is not in the cards? Are poor people without insurance allowed to go for an annual checkup?

And there are no borderline Communist Liberals. So you really don't know what you are talking about?
No borderline communists? How about communist communists? As in the Communist Party of Canada, which has been active since the 1930's? They ARE a small party, but they exist, and have even elected a representative or two in the past, though rarely. Don't believe me? Check for yourself. http://www.communist-party.ca/

The last recession started while Clinton was still in office and would have started earlier if the tech boom did not occur. The economy is already on the upturn. As for political hell and the moderates being squeezed out, I fail to see how this election is any more partisan than the last one.
The last recession actually started after Clinton left office (March 2001).

Who gives a shit about the "international community"?
We have noticed this attitude creeping in and there is concern.

America has the highest poverty rate among the 17 OECD countries. I would suggest that that is an awful lot of Americans without money.

Gotta love misleading statistics. The so-called poverty threshold is set absurdly high for the US.

So if a lot of these people don't go to a doctor then early detection of cancer and heart problems is not in the cards? Are poor people without insurance allowed to go for an annual checkup?

No. But then again, a big reason the Canadian system is so overloaded is because of people going to the doctor and wasting resources for no reason.

As for political hell and the moderates being squeezed out, I fail to see how this election is any more partisan than the last one.

Personally, I only started to see the difference between Republicans and Democrats after Bush came in. It's probably safe to say the Bush-or-Gore joke no longer applies in this age.

The last recession actually started after Clinton left office (March 2001).

I read it was slightly earlier. But I'm sure Bush has the power to cause a recession after 100 days in office. Absolutely.

We have noticed this attitude creeping in and there is concern.

FYI, I'm not American. Not yet anyway.

No borderline communists? How about communist communists? As in the Communist Party of Canada, which has been active since the 1930's? They ARE a small party, but they exist, and have even elected Members of Provincial parliaments in the past, though rarely. Don't believe me? Check for yourself. http://www.communist-party.ca/
I was taking exception to the description that the Liberal Party had borderline Communists, which is not true. There is the Communist Party of Canada and it really is a non starter. Can you direct me to where the Communists have actually won seats in a Provincial Parliament?

BTW, there is also Communist Party USA.

http://www.cpusa.org/

There are Communists everywhere in the world?

[QUOTE=CanuckHeaven]The last recession actually started after Clinton left office (March 2001).

The last recession was registered as starting March 2001. Yes that is true, but that means it has been over a quarter of no growth. Growth started the dive in October/November, which was... drumroll.... under Clinton. Although I have to say, the recession was caused more by the dot com bust than by any actions Clinton did, since the Republican controlled congress wouldn't pass most of Clinton's retarded proposals.

Gotta love misleading statistics. The so-called poverty threshold is set absurdly high for the US.
On average a family of four is considered to be living in poverty if its annual cash income is below $18,810, according to government guidelines. The threshold falls to about $14,680 for a family of three, $12,015 for a couple and $9,393 for an individual.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5829707/

I wouldn't call those high thresholds by any stretch of the imagination. It is actually higher in Canada.


No. But then again, a big reason the Canadian system is so overloaded is because of people going to the doctor and wasting resources for no reason.
Yet the US system costs 3 times as much to maintain per person than the Canadian system. Go figure?

[QUOTE=CanuckHeaven]The last recession actually started after Clinton left office (March 2001).

The last recession was registered as starting March 2001. Yes that is true, but that means it has been over a quarter of no growth. Growth started the dive in October/November, which was... drumroll.... under Clinton. Although I have to say, the recession was caused more by the dot com bust than by any actions Clinton did, since the Republican controlled congress wouldn't pass most of Clinton's retarded proposals.
Ahhh but there was such an economic growth for those 8 years of Clinton?

Bush has spent hunfreds of Billions in "tax cuts" to create 5 Million "new" jobs and yet is on target to be the first President since Hoover to have a NET job loss while in office for a full term.

[QUOTE=CanuckHeaven]The last recession actually started after Clinton left office (March 2001).

The last recession was registered as starting March 2001. Yes that is true, but that means it has been over a quarter of no growth. Growth started the dive in October/November, which was... drumroll.... under Clinton. Although I have to say, the recession was caused more by the dot com bust than by any actions Clinton did, since the Republican controlled congress wouldn't pass most of Clinton's retarded proposals.
Ahhh but there was such an economic growth for those 8 years of Clinton?

Bush has spent hundreds of Billions in "tax cuts" to create 5 Million "new" jobs and yet is on target to be the first President since Hoover to have a NET job loss while in office for a full term.

It appears that the Republican controlled congress has no problem passing most of Bush's "retarded" proposals?

I was taking exception to the description that the Liberal Party had borderline Communists, which is not true. There is the Communist Party of Canada and it really is a non starter. Can you direct me to where the Communists have actually won seats in a Provincial Parliament?

Provincial Parliament? My mistake, but there's Dorise Nielsen, who was elected as a Member of Parliament in 1940, and was a member of the CPC, though running under "Progressive Unity", which was a popular front set up by the Communist Party. Do you really want specific names from elections fourty to fifty years ago? Suffice it to say the party has had a small backing.
Also, bear in mind that the term "liberal" does not only refer to the political party, but to the left wing in general. People refer to Democrats as "liberals". The post you were responding to referred to the tendancies the country has, rather than simply the parties. He said "its hard core Liberal, almost bordering on communist", not that some members of the Liberal Party are borderline communists. The CPC gets votes, and has members, and therefore there are SOME people who are "hardcore liberal, almost bordering on communist." In general, it may be best not to use general terms like liberal and conservative because they are pretty vague.

Provincial Parliament? My mistake, but there's Dorise Nielsen, who was elected as a Member of Parliament in 1940, and was a member of the CPC, though running under "Progressive Unity", which was a popular front set up by the Communist Party. Do you really want specific names from elections fourty to fifty years ago? Suffice it to say the party has had a small backing.
Also, bear in mind that the term "liberal" does not only refer to the political party, but to the left wing in general. People refer to Democrats as "liberals". The post you were responding to referred to the tendancies the country has, rather than simply the parties. He said "its hard core Liberal, almost bordering on communist", not that some members of the Liberal Party are borderline communists. The CPC gets votes, and has members, and therefore there are SOME people who are "hardcore liberal, almost bordering on communist." In general, it may be best not to use general terms like liberal and conservative because they are pretty vague.
Well in Canada we have the Liberal Party of Canada, which would be very similar to the Democrats in the US. The left leaning party is the NDP, and the extreme left is the Communists but like I stated before, they are a non starter here in Canada.

Well in Canada we have the Liberal Party of Canada, which would be very similar to the Democrats in the US. The left leaning party is the NDP, and the extreme left is the Communists but like I stated before, they are a non starter here in Canada.
You left out the Green Party ;) . Don't lecture me on Canadian politics. I live here, too. I'm simply stating that "liberal" is a general, sweeping term, and when Irondin used it, he/she was probably not referring to the Liberal Party. We've really spent more time on this (a sentence neither one of us typed to begin with) than we should have.

You left out the Green Party ;) . Don't lecture me on Canadian politics. I live here, too. I'm simply stating that "liberal" is a general, sweeping term, and when Irondin used it, he/she was probably not referring to the Liberal Party. We've really spent more time on this (a sentence neither one of us typed to begin with) than we should have.
Sorry guy, wasn't trying to lecture you. The Green Party certainly has some worthwhile goals, and to the credit of the Liberal Party, Canada has ratified the Kyoto Protocol perhaps due to the presence of such parties as the Greens?

Bush and his right-wing cronies are screwing up America. I fear that, if he wins in 2004, we may set up a tradition of extremism on both sides. I don't want that. I'm a Conservative, yes, but Bush refuses to work, for the most part, with the liberals, and the libs refuse to work with W. This nation is far too polarized. So, I'm probably going to head to Canada. Any advice?
Maybe not quite advice but, good riddance!

Maybe not quite advice but, good riddance!

To who, exactly?

Anyway---
Perhaps one of the reasons Canada's budget is less is because, in terms of population, Canada is much smaller. It's 1/9 the size of the US.

The last American immigrant I spoke to said to me, "I couldn't believe that it was safe to go out at night!" Now mind you she hailed from Detroit originally. Be sure to pack an open mind with you when you hop on the plane for Canada; we're moderately progressive sometimes. You might find Toronto a comfortable, since it's sort of like a less menacing version of urban America. Good luck, and don't give up on America yet. If it's as bad as that, you'll be moving again in another five years.

Oh yeah, and please don't vote Conservative when you get here. The Conservative and Alliance parties have zealously followed in the footsteps of every economic goof the American Republicans have ever made, even after proof of failure.

I wouldn't go downtown in Toronto at night...

I am very Republican but I do have to agree this country has become EXTREMELY partisan and its mainly because the democratic party has the normal democrats who are moderate to left then they have the they SUPER LIB COMMIES. The super lib commies are the problem because they would vote for the devil to beat Bush in the election and they refuse to work with the republicans and some of the democrats.
What the hell are u talking about??? Make sense man.....

I wouldn't go downtown in Toronto at night...

I did, but it was entirely by accident. And my sister lived a block from Jane and Finch for a few years with nothing worse than a little jostling in the elevator. Be sensible, be aware, but don't be afraid.

I did, but it was entirely by accident. And my sister lived a block from Jane and Finch for a few years with nothing worse than a little jostling in the elevator. Be sensible, be aware, but don't be afraid.

I got stuck overnight in the downtown bus station waiting for a ride back to New York and got harassed by a bunch of drugged up punks... ended up waiting out the rest of the night in an overnight cafe. Ugh.

I got stuck overnight in the downtown bus station waiting for a ride back to New York and got harassed by a bunch of drugged up punks... ended up waiting out the rest of the night in an overnight cafe. Ugh.

That's too bad. I'm sorry that happened to you. That reflects pretty poorly on this nation.

That's too bad. I'm sorry that happened to you. That reflects pretty poorly on this nation.

Personally, I was surprised it happened. Toronto has always been relatively safe. Crime has been on the rise recently though.

CanuckHeaven, stop wasting peoples time with the evil Conservative agenda, given how much money the Liberals have wasted. Dude who wrote this thread, don't move to Saskatchewan or Manitoba what ever you do. These are probably the dullest places in the world. I have to live in Saskatchewan for now but when I turn 18, I'm outta here. Go to either Toronto, Vancouver or maybe Calgary. Unless you speak French, probably avoid Montreal. By the way, I believe that Communist that was elected an MP ran in Winnipeg, which shows you something about the people there.

We call them universities up here.

You better like hockey, or else. *shakes fists*

We got colleges too.. we just don't have a lot.

Bush and his right-wing cronies are screwing up America. I fear that, if he wins in 2004, we may set up a tradition of extremism on both sides. I don't want that. I'm a Conservative, yes, but Bush refuses to work, for the most part, with the liberals, and the libs refuse to work with W. This nation is far too polarized. So, I'm probably going to head to Canada. Any advice?

I'd move to Canada too, but it's way to far. If I have to get out of dodge fast, I'm heading to Mexico. I'll jump the fence at night and cross into Mexico as I'm watching everybody else jump the fence into the US.

Seriously, I'm in Texas so if I need to get out of the US fast, Canada is too far. So I say "VIVA LOS MEXCIO!"

I wouldn't go downtown in Toronto at night...

I LIVE IN TORONTO! I've never actually encountered any problems with going out at night downtown. Have you lived all of your life in the streets of Toronto? It's actually quite safe here, just have to have common sense, only places where I've most likely would have a problem is Regent Park (our ghettos) and even then it's not that bad at all.

I LIVE IN TORONTO! I've never actually encountered any problems with going out at night downtown. Have you lived all of your life in the streets of Toronto? It's actually quite safe here, since everyone here isn't a cynical, arrogant assholes like some yanks I know (not all) down in the states.

Toronto is quite safe, what I ran into was an isolated incident.

But your attitude towards Americans is sadly typical of many Canadians.

Toronto is quite safe, what I ran into was an isolated incident.

But your attitude towards Americans is sadly typical of many Canadians.

It's true though, there are a lot of arrogant Americans out there. Also I would say it's sadly typical of many people all over the world.

As much as we would like to have you live in Canada, I hate to inform you that we have our quota of "Conservatives" at the present time, so you will have to wait until we can get a few more to emigrate or be converted to Liberals.

What about a moderate to "liberal" American?

Bush and his right-wing cronies are screwing up America. I fear that, if he wins in 2004, we may set up a tradition of extremism on both sides. I don't want that. I'm a Conservative, yes, but Bush refuses to work, for the most part, with the liberals, and the libs refuse to work with W. This nation is far too polarized. So, I'm probably going to head to Canada. Any advice?

I'm not buying the "conservative" tag you post on yourself, though that's irrelevent.

My advice: Warm clothes. And don't forget to renounce your citizenship as you leave, unless your the insincere and uncommited person you seem.

how exactly do you formally renounce your citizenship? (this is a legitimate, curious question, not a sarcastic smartass response) do you have to do it in writing? not that i'm planning on doing it, im just curious if anyone knows.

how exactly do you formally renounce your citizenship? (this is a legitimate, curious question, not a sarcastic smartass response) do you have to do it in writing? not that i'm planning on doing it, im just curious if anyone knows.

I think you have to do it by mail to the State Dept. However....even Lee Harvey Oswald was allowed back in....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anjamin
how exactly do you formally renounce your citizenship? (this is a legitimate, curious question, not a sarcastic smartass response) do you have to do it in writing? not that i'm planning on doing it, im just curious if anyone knows.



I think you have to do it by mail to the State Dept. However....even Lee Harvey Oswald was allowed back in....



http://slate.msn.com/id/2104878/

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=renouncing+US+citizenship

..so you might try joining the Canadan (spelling as intended) army and fight for.... hmmmmmmmmmm... ?

You don't have to renounce your American citizenship when you become a Canadian citizen. I personally know three people who currently have dual American/Canadian citizenship, and two of them told me how the American officials they dealt with tried to pull fast ones on them and make them give up their American citizenship.

So beware.

I have said it before, that we have more than enough conservatives here in Canada- and now that's somewhat more perilous than in the days of the Progressive Conservative Party. The new Conservative Party of Canada has little in common with the Tories of old- these are a new breed of neo-conservatives, who want to effect broad sweeping changes in our society (via devolution of Federal powers amogst other things) and more-or-less turn back the clock about thirty-odd years by repealing a woman's right to choose, re-introducing the death penalty, and happily doing whatever our neighbours to the south tell us to do.

Feh. We REALLY don't need any more conservatives up here. We've already got our hands more than full with the malcontented Republican-wannabes already among us.

You don't have to renounce your American citizenship when you become a Canadian citizen. I personally know three people who currently have dual American/Canadian citizenship, and two of them told me how the American officials they dealt with tried to pull fast ones on them and make them give up their American citizenship.

So beware.

I have said it before, that we have more than enough conservatives here in Canada- and now that's somewhat more perilous than in the days of the Progressive Conservative Party. The new Conservative Party of Canada has little in common with the Tories of old- these are a new breed of neo-conservatives, who want to effect broad sweeping changes in our society (via devolution of Federal powers amogst other things) and more-or-less turn back the clock about thirty-odd years by repealing a woman's right to choose, re-introducing the death penalty, and happily doing whatever our neighbours to the south tell us to do.

Feh. We REALLY don't need any more conservatives up here. We've already got our hands more than full with the malcontented Republican-wannabes already among us.

My point is that someone who flees their country because they "can't handle the bickering" isn't much of a countryman in the first place.

Make up your mind. Are you an American or not...?

Canadia (spelling intended) is not America (aka the US).

Everyone has their ways, like them or not.

A bunch more conservatives in Canada would make for interesting times at the dinnertable. :)

[COLOR=DarkRed][FONT=Comic Sans MS]My point is that someone who flees their country because they "can't handle the bickering" isn't much of a countryman in the first place.

If they find things in Canada not to their liking, will they then try for Mexican citizenship? ;)

My point is that someone who flees their country because they "can't handle the bickering" isn't much of a countryman in the first place.

Make up your mind. Are you an American or not...?

Canadia (spelling intended) is not America (aka the US).

Everyone has their ways, like them or not.

A bunch more conservatives in Canada would make for interesting times at the dinnertable. :)

Your point is taken. Many people have fled their home countries for various reasons- your United States are made up of people who fled their homelands to become American citizens.

My mind is made up, and I'm most assuredly NOT an Amerikan (spelling intended). Your mind is made up, and you are most assuredly NOT a Canadian. The minds of my 3 friends are made up, and they're both American AND Canadian. The world isn't black and white. It's grey.

As you say, everyone has their ways, like them or not.

I disagree with your last point, though- it wouldn't make things 'interesting at the dinnertable'...it would needlessly pit neighbour upon neighbour in endless, emotionally-draining referenda. I cite the example of the two referenda on separation in Quebec. Utterly needless, pointless, and divisive, with a serious negative impact on Quebec's (and by extension, Canada's) economic growth and stability. Interesting? Only to a PoliSci major with time on his hands before midterm.

So if they don't have any money then they get free healthcare?

Ok then, why should anyone bother getting insurance?


Well, they can't refuse you, but they can keep billing you and keep you in collections so you can't rent a decent apartment, buy a house, buy a car except from a predatory lender. They keep on trying until you declare bankruptcy. If that sounds like a cushy lifestyle for you, by all means, have at it, but from my perspective it's a lousy risk to take.

And who they heck wants to go sit in an emergency room waiting room to see a doctor for an ear infection. It's really more cost effective for people to get an appropriate level of care for what they need, instead of clogging the emergency rooms for non-emergencies.

Bush and his right-wing cronies are screwing up America. I fear that, if he wins in 2004, we may set up a tradition of extremism on both sides. I don't want that. I'm a Conservative, yes, but Bush refuses to work, for the most part, with the liberals, and the libs refuse to work with W. This nation is far too polarized. So, I'm probably going to head to Canada. Any advice?

;) Don't let the door hit you where the good Lord split ya?

Oh, and btw: head north. ;)



Seriously, the "I'm running away to Canada" thing, which I've heard a lot over the past four years, really is palling. Either go or don't as you choose, but no need to make a big deal out of it.

I fail to see how the Canadians will think this is a wonderful thing: "evil Americans" invading their country....

;) Don't let the door hit you where the good Lord split ya?

Oh, and btw: head north. ;)



Seriously, the "I'm running away to Canada" thing, which I've heard a lot over the past four years, really is palling. Either go or don't as you choose, but no need to make a big deal out of it.

I fail to see how the Canadians will think this is a wonderful thing: "evil Americans" invading their country....

Well, this is the point, isn't it? We're more than happy to have your 'non-evil' citizens become our 'non-evil' citizens. You can keep your 'evil' ones...Und zen, zere vill be only ONE politikal party in ze United States auf Amerika! Und all citizens vill be party members! Aieeeee!

Well, this is the point, isn't it? We're more than happy to have your 'non-evil' citizens become our 'non-evil' citizens. You can keep your 'evil' ones...Und zen, zere vill be only ONE politikal party in ze United States auf Amerika! Und all citizens vill be party members! Aieeeee!

Yes, but if all the people who PROFESS to hate Bush actually voted for a viable candidate..... hmmmmmmmmmm.

Your point is taken. Many people have fled their home countries for various reasons- your United States are made up of people who fled their homelands to become American citizens.

My mind is made up, and I'm most assuredly NOT an Amerikan (spelling intended). Your mind is made up, and you are most assuredly NOT a Canadian. The minds of my 3 friends are made up, and they're both American AND Canadian. The world isn't black and white. It's grey.

As you say, everyone has their ways, like them or not.

I disagree with your last point, though- it wouldn't make things 'interesting at the dinnertable'...it would needlessly pit neighbour upon neighbour in endless, emotionally-draining referenda. I cite the example of the two referenda on separation in Quebec. Utterly needless, pointless, and divisive, with a serious negative impact on Quebec's (and by extension, Canada's) economic growth and stability. Interesting? Only to a PoliSci major with time on his hands before midterm.

Those who fled and became Americans BECAME AMERICANS..!

And the world is better for it.

It would be nice if those who flee America would become citizens of their destinations. It would inject some American values (even if unintendedly) into these other places, because once you've been a US citizen... (need I say more?).

As for the "gray world".

Non-Americans seem to think that we don't see the grays, or the colors, for that matter.

We do. It's simply that because when we, the US, make a choice to do something, our power in the world (an existential fact) means that there are those who feel it rather heavily everywhere.

Therefore, we are seen (as promoted by those who "felt it") as a great lumbering bull in a china shop.

And hated for it, by those who have nothing better to do than hate somebody who is an easy target.

PLEASE run your house in the best way you see fit..! Your experiment is as valid as ours. It's just NOT OURS..!

It's also good to see that you embrace the "conservative" idea that neighbors really shouldn't be wasting their time in senseless arguing over meaningless things.

Though,.... I'm not sure how YOUR minorities would feel about that.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2104878/

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=renouncing+US+citizenship

..so you might try joining the Canadan (spelling as intended) army and fight for.... hmmmmmmmmmm... ?



What's up with you and purposely misspelling Canadian and Canada?

Those who fled and became Americans BECAME AMERICANS..!

And the world is better for it.

It would be nice if those who flee America would become citizens of their destinations. It would inject some American values (even if unintendedly) into these other places, because once you've been a US citizen... (need I say more?).

As for the "gray world".

Non-Americans seem to think that we don't see the grays, or the colors, for that matter.

We do. It's simply that because when we, the US, make a choice to do something, our power in the world (an existential fact) means that there are those who feel it rather heavily everywhere.

Therefore, we are seen (as promoted by those who "felt it") as a great lumbering bull in a china shop.

And hated for it, by those who have nothing better to do than hate somebody who is an easy target.

PLEASE run your house in the best way you see fit..! Your experiment is as valid as ours. It's just NOT OURS..!

It's also good to see that you embrace the "conservative" idea that neighbors really shouldn't be wasting their time in senseless arguing over meaningless things.

Though,.... I'm not sure how YOUR minorities would feel about that.

So what's wrong with holding dual citizenship? And just how are you NOT a bull in a china shop? We're more than happy to run our house as we see fit, but we keep receiving veiled threats from the US ambassador and your State Department on issues like decriminalizing marijuana. Our experiment is INDEED as valid as yours, will you please contact your representatives and make your opinion known? We sure would appreciate it, you know, being a sovereign nation and all...

So what's wrong with holding dual citizenship? And just how are you NOT a bull in a china shop? We're more than happy to run our house as we see fit, but we keep receiving veiled threats from the US ambassador and your State Department on issues like decriminalizing marijuana. Our experiment is INDEED as valid as yours, will you please contact your representatives and make your opinion known? We sure would appreciate it, you know, being a sovereign nation and all...

Nothing wrong with dual citizenship. One of my daughters was born in England and has dual citizenship there. The other daughter was born in Spain and has dual citizenship there.

What's up with you and purposely misspelling Canadian and Canada?


Canadans are from Canadia.

Didn't you get the memo..?

So what's wrong with holding dual citizenship? And just how are you NOT a bull in a china shop? We're more than happy to run our house as we see fit, but we keep receiving veiled threats from the US ambassador and your State Department on issues like decriminalizing marijuana. Our experiment is INDEED as valid as yours, will you please contact your representatives and make your opinion known? We sure would appreciate it, you know, being a sovereign nation and all...

People should not get veiled threats,... they should be given CONDITIONAL threats, such as:

"Do this or we'll withhold your air for 6 minutes".

Just because we threaten you, does not mean we don't think your nationalist/sovereign ways are any less valid than ours.

We just think your BEHAVIORS are not to our liking, and therefore subject to our threats.

Very simple really.

That's what NATIONS DO in the big grown-up world of real-life.

Always have. Always will.

Originally Posted by Iakeokeo
Those who fled and became Americans BECAME AMERICANS..!

And the world is better for it.

It would be nice if those who flee America would become citizens of their destinations. It would inject some American values (even if unintendedly) into these other places, because once you've been a US citizen... (need I say more?).

As for the "gray world".

Non-Americans seem to think that we don't see the grays, or the colors, for that matter.

We do. It's simply that because when we, the US, make a choice to do something, our power in the world (an existential fact) means that there are those who feel it rather heavily everywhere.

Therefore, we are seen (as promoted by those who "felt it") as a great lumbering bull in a china shop.

And hated for it, by those who have nothing better to do than hate somebody who is an easy target.

PLEASE run your house in the best way you see fit..! Your experiment is as valid as ours. It's just NOT OURS..!

It's also good to see that you embrace the "conservative" idea that neighbors really shouldn't be wasting their time in senseless arguing over meaningless things.

Though,.... I'm not sure how YOUR minorities would feel about that.

I knew I put Iakeokeo on my ignore list for a reason. Every time I see one of his post quoted, I want to throw my keyboard through the computer screen. Suffice to say I totally disagree with him on all the major issues in this thread.

I, for one, will welcome any and all US citizen who want to start anew in Canada. They can keep their dual-citizenship, it can proove handy.

I am very Republican but I do have to agree this country has become EXTREMELY partisan and its mainly because the democratic party has the normal democrats who are moderate to left then they have the they SUPER LIB COMMIES. The super lib commies are the problem because they would vote for the devil to beat Bush in the election and they refuse to work with the republicans and some of the democrats.

W00t. I can Ignore you!

So what's wrong with holding dual citizenship? And just how are you NOT a bull in a china shop?


I like the idea of dual citizenship.

And YES,.. we are a bull in a china shop. Your point is......?

But back to dual citizenship...

It is for weenies who can't take a stand or make up their mind.

Think Cananadan or European weenie. NOW I'm not talking to you sensible Canadans or Europeans,.. just to the weenie ones.

The nice thing about dual citizenship is that it CLEARLY identifies the non-commital weenies amongst us.

This is a GOOD THING...!

I like the idea of dual citizenship.

And YES,.. we are a bull in a china shop. Your point is......?

But back to dual citizenship...

It is for weenies who can't take a stand or make up their mind.

Think Cananadan or European weenie. NOW I'm not talking to you sensible Canadans or Europeans,.. just to the weenie ones.

The nice thing about dual citizenship is that it CLEARLY identifies the non-commital weenies amongst us.

This is a GOOD THING...!

Your last statement is, I'm supposing, calculated to be chilling. You're sweet and cuddly, in a McCarthyite sorta way...

Good luck in your current experimentation with despotism. You'll need it soon enough...

I knew I put Iakeokeo on my ignore list for a reason. Every time I see one of his post quoted, I want to throw my keyboard through the computer screen. Suffice to say I totally disagree with him on all the major issues in this thread.

I, for one, will welcome any and all US citizen who want to start anew in Canada. They can keep their dual-citizenship, it can proove handy.

It's good to be "important" enough to threaten the very existence of keyboards and monitors (that's what "computer screen" means).

Someone MUST quote me now to get this message to East Canuck, of course. :)

Anyway,.. if you wish to have them, as we're MORE than happy to give them to you,.. would you at least have the "Testicular Fortitude" to take them as your own, instead of your usual "sponge off the American Dynamo" routine that is your habit...?

And:

OF COURSE American citizenship can prove handy (as opposed to "proove handy")....!

It's a powerful sign to the world that you are a special person, and can get you things that would otherwise be difficult..!

That IS what you meant,.. isn't it..?

What about a moderate to "liberal" American?
There is always room for moderates. :D

There is always room for moderates. :D

Thank you.....sure beats the crap out of the GOP or the Dems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iakeokeo
I like the idea of dual citizenship.

And YES,.. we are a bull in a china shop. Your point is......?

But back to dual citizenship...

It is for weenies who can't take a stand or make up their mind.

Think Cananadan or European weenie. NOW I'm not talking to you sensible Canadans or Europeans,.. just to the weenie ones.

The nice thing about dual citizenship is that it CLEARLY identifies the non-commital weenies amongst us.

This is a GOOD THING...!




Your last statement is, I'm supposing, calculated to be chilling. You're sweet and cuddly, in a McCarthyite sorta way...

Good luck in your current experimentation with despotism. You'll need it soon enough...


Yes,.. meant to be chilling. The weenies should be thoroughly chilled before serving. They should not only be identified, but uncomfortable in their weenieness. (WHAT...!? :) )

You underestimate the American people.

You think that any mindset that is not yours, is despotism.

Americans know they are a goofy people, and won't let the intolerant bedraggled humorless ninnies of the world spoil the party.

We know we're stronger than that, and we know you're stronger than that.

Although the various recessions into savagery and barbarism that seem to crop up in other parts of the world might make us think about that a little closer.

It's good to be "important" enough to threaten the very existence of keyboards and monitors (that's what "computer screen" means).

Someone MUST quote me now to get this message to East Canuck, of course. :)

Anyway,.. if you wish to have them, as we're MORE than happy to give them to you,.. would you at least have the "Testicular Fortitude" to take them as your own, instead of your usual "sponge off the American Dynamo" routine that is your habit...?

And:

OF COURSE American citizenship can prove handy (as opposed to "proove handy")....!

It's a powerful sign to the world that you are a special person, and can get you things that would otherwise be difficult..!

That IS what you meant,.. isn't it..?

If I do go to Canada, I'm not renouncing my citizenship. I believe that America is an ideal, not just a country. I for one still believe in that ideal. I will always hope America will return to what it stood for.

I wouldn't go downtown in Toronto at night...
What is wrong with Toronto downtown at night? That is where all the people are. are you afraid of people?

Where are you moving to in the US?

What is wrong with Toronto downtown at night? That is where all the people are. are you afraid of people?

Where are you moving to in the US?

Trust me. NEVER, NEVER, go into downtown Baltimore at night. We have a murder rate averaging about one dead per day.

If I do go to Canada, I'm not renouncing my citizenship. I believe that America is an ideal, not just a country. I for one still believe in that ideal. I will always hope America will return to what it stood for.

Hear hear..! As do I believe as well..!

Most Americans, and most of the world, believe as you and I do too.

Which is the reason the "America Haters" will try to convince you that the "current situation" in America is so bad that "you must leave now, BEFORE it gets REALLY bad!"

If you leave, you have taken the bait,.. and we laugh at you for your foolish and childish lack of judgement.

And I really wouldn't suggest that you renounce your citizenship, as it would be a shame to have lost that when you "grow-up".

Personally, I was surprised it happened. Toronto has always been relatively safe. Crime has been on the rise recently though.
Yeah....New York is much safer than Toronto. :eek:

Hear hear..! As do I believe as well..!

Most Americans, and most of the world, believe as you and I do too.

Which is the reason the "America Haters" will try to convince you that the "current situation" in America is so bad that "you must leave now, BEFORE it gets REALLY bad!"

If you leave, you have taken the bait,.. and we laugh at you for your foolish and childish lack of judgement.

And I really woldn't suggest that you renounce your citizenship, as it would be a shame to have lost that when you "grow-up".

I do not think America is as bad as it possibly could get now. However, I am looking to the future- and what would happen if a precedent of Bush-like governments took hold. I believe America can be fixed. However, if we fail, then all is lost.

What is wrong with Toronto downtown at night? That is where all the people are. are you afraid of people?

Where are you moving to in the US?

What's wrong with Toronto downtown at night is that there are PEOPLE there...he apparently let himself get spooked by some street people at the Greyhound terminal on Bay St. Like bus terminals everywhere, the terminal on Bay Street attracts a...colourful crowd at times.

Too bad he didn't just resolve his fears and chat with the friendly staffers instead of holing himself up in an all-night diner...

I work across the street and two blocks north of that terminal, BTW. It's in a very squeaky-clean, well-policed part of the downtown core, kitty corner to the Eaton Centre, that sprawling temple of capitalism that swallowed two city blocks. Directly across from the upscale, 'Atrium on Bay'. The terminal itself was rather massively re-developed and redecorated some time in the last decade, made brighter, and safer, with increased security and wide lines of sight for the onsite staff.

But if you're preternaturally scared of human contact, I suppose even bulletproof glass and rottweilers wouldn't make you feel safe...

What's wrong with Toronto downtown at night is that there are PEOPLE there...he apparently let himself get spooked by some street people at the Greyhound terminal on Bay St. Like bus terminals everywhere, the terminal on Bay Street attracts a...colourful crowd at times.

Too bad he didn't just resolve his fears and chat with the friendly staffers instead of holing himself up in an all-night diner...

I work across the street and two blocks north of that terminal, BTW. It's in a very squeaky-clean, well-policed part of the downtown core, kitty corner to the Eaton Centre, that sprawling temple of capitalism that swallowed two city blocks. Directly across from the upscale, 'Atrium on Bay'. The terminal itself was rather massively re-developed and redecorated some time in the last decade, made brighter, and safer, with increased security and wide lines of sight for the onsite staff.

But if you're preternaturally scared of human contact, I suppose even bulletproof glass and rottweilers wouldn't make you feel safe...
Well you see the problem here is that Pan Arab Israel is trying to paint Toronto as an unsafe city, which you and I both know is not true. Toronto is among the safest cities in all of North America.

Anybody watch the after-party celebrations in Calgary during the NHL playoffs?

I am extremely proud to call myself a Canadian, and a Calgarian.

I've never been to TO, but I intend to visit there soon.

It's good to be "important" enough to threaten the very existence of keyboards and monitors (that's what "computer screen" means).

Someone MUST quote me now to get this message to East Canuck, of course. :)

Anyway,.. if you wish to have them, as we're MORE than happy to give them to you,.. would you at least have the "Testicular Fortitude" to take them as your own, instead of your usual "sponge off the American Dynamo" routine that is your habit...?

And:

OF COURSE American citizenship can prove handy (as opposed to "proove handy")....!

It's a powerful sign to the world that you are a special person, and can get you things that would otherwise be difficult..!

That IS what you meant,.. isn't it..?
Alright, since I was talked to I am going to respond.
First of all: monitor and screen is the same bloody thing. I use another name for it, big deal. Some people call a soft drink soda, some call it pop, some call it coke (whatever the brand is). It the SAME FUCKING THING.

In the same vein, I am convince that proove is as valid, if not more than prove. The language has evolved in America differently than in Canada or even Britain. I am not going to call a night club a 'nite club' because you do.

If I had least made a mistake I could understand being corrected. You are being anal on some things that aren't even mistakes. Furthermore, If I see another mistake in either Canada or Canadian, I will report you for trolling.

Second, "testicular fortitude": You make me laugh. Like accepting someone and let him keep his old citizenship (wich is still valid) is showing a lack of courage. If you at least had a valid reason for them to abandon their citizenship, but no... you prefer to call them cowards and weenies. Bloody typical... When you don't have an argument you resort to name calling.

Furthermore, can you explain to me how you say one thing and then three sentences later say the opposite?

I like the idea of dual citizenship.

It is for weenies who can't take a stand or make up their mind.

Are you calling yourself a weenie?

And dual-citizenship (ANY dual-citizenship) can proove handy in many ways. I can also become an hindrance as Canadian citizen who are born in the middle east are now screened to go to the US while other Canadian are not. Mind you, they would be screened even if they renounced their citizenship from, say, Syria.

I will be watching for now and will put you back on my ignore list in a day or two.

I do not think America is as bad as it possibly could get now. However, I am looking to the future- and what would happen if a precedent of Bush-like governments took hold. I believe America can be fixed. However, if we fail, then all is lost.

Then leave, because you are of no value to us if you think that the American people are so messed up that they'd allow a true european-style dictatorship to flourish.

I think that the only way that we, as America, can fail is if we bow to the insidious America-haters and turn against our very nature, toward theirs.

Which you are demonstrating wonderfuly when you repeat such tripe as "If we fail, then all is lost."

Who is the "we" and what is lost..?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iakeokeo
It's good to be "important" enough to threaten the very existence of keyboards and monitors (that's what "computer screen" means).

Someone MUST quote me now to get this message to East Canuck, of course.

Anyway,.. if you wish to have them, as we're MORE than happy to give them to you,.. would you at least have the "Testicular Fortitude" to take them as your own, instead of your usual "sponge off the American Dynamo" routine that is your habit...?

And:

OF COURSE American citizenship can prove handy (as opposed to "proove handy")....!

It's a powerful sign to the world that you are a special person, and can get you things that would otherwise be difficult..!

That IS what you meant,.. isn't it..?


Alright, since I was talked to I am going to respond.
First of all: monitor and screen is the same bloody thing. I use another name for it, big deal. Some people call a soft drink soda, some call it pop, some call it coke (whatever the brand is). It the SAME FUCKING THING.

In the same vein, I am convince that proove is as valid, if not more than prove. The language has evolved in America differently than in Canada or even Britain. I am not going to call a night club a 'nite club' because you do.

If I had least made a mistake I could understand being corrected. You are being anal on some things that aren't even mistakes. Furthermore, If I see another mistake in either Canada or Canadian, I will report you for trolling.

Second, "testicular fortitude": You make me laugh. Like accepting someone and let him keep his old citizenship (wich is still valid) is showing a lack of courage. If you at least had a valid reason for them to abandon their citizenship, but no... you prefer to call them cowards and weenies. Bloody typical... When you don't have an argument you resort to name calling.

Furthermore, can you explain to me how you say one thing and then three sentences later say the opposite?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Iakeokeo
I like the idea of dual citizenship.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Iakeokeo
It is for weenies who can't take a stand or make up their mind.



Are you calling yourself a weenie?

And dual-citizenship (ANY dual-citizenship) can proove handy in many ways. I can also become an hindrance as Canadian citizen who are born in the middle east are now screened to go to the US while other Canadian are not. Mind you, they would be screened even if they renounced their citizenship from, say, Syria.

I will be watching for now and will put you back on my ignore list in a day or two.

I conceed the monitor/screen point, as I was just pointing out our "diversity" in spelling. Language and it's evolution and usage is fun. :)

I like Canada and Canadians, as well as Canadia and Canadans. It is a FANTASTICALLY beautiful piece of ground, and some of the nicest folks I've ever met.

It has just always made me laugh that Canada is full of Canadans,... and why it is that Canadians don't inhabit Canadia.

Just a strange curiousity of mine.

My point about dual citizenship, obviously heavy on the sarcasm, is that if an American citizen TRULY believed that America was the great evil empire, then they'd want nothing to do with American citizenship.

I wouldn't..!

And yes, I call the non-commital stance of "keeping your options open" by not renouncing citizenship in "the evil empire" because of it's benefits the act of a coward and "weenie".

I said I liked the IDEA of dual citizenship, as a tool to identify said "weenies".

Anyway,.. do your very best to promote your ideas within your nation. It does us all a great service, because all points should be considered.

The marketplace will declare the winners and losers. And then the fight will recommence.

You may ignore me as you wish, but I'm not interested in winning or losing arguments,.. simply discussing the topic between our possibly vastly divergent viewpoints.

Please don't get angry. It doesn't do either of us or the discussion any good at all. :)

Trust me. NEVER, NEVER, go into downtown Baltimore at night. We have a murder rate averaging about one dead per day.

Its not nearly as bad in Boston, only about one a week. But thats bound to change eventually.

Advice?
Yeah....go study up on your facts.
Bush "refuses to work with the liberals"??
Bush has worked TOO much with the liberals, which is why Bush's conservative base is so pissed at him.
Who did Bush let write his education bill?......Ted Kennedy.

Another piece of advice?
Don't let the door hit you in the ass....and don't be crying to come back home when you need major surgery.
:rolleyes:
I agree. Bush should have just told the libbies to F off then call it either a "political speech" or "artistic freedom".
I am True Conservative (pro-life, pro-gun, pro-freedom-from-the-UN, small gov't, low taxes, strong military, etc.) I believe that we should have nuked Afghanistan. I believe that people should fend for themselves and not get money from the gov't. I believe in freedom of press and religion. I believe that you have the freedom to speak, but not to be heard. I believe that the UN is full of wussies. I believe guns are not evil, just people who misuse guns. I like to shoot guns, I do it as often as possible. I believe that you can change opinions, but not the nature of people.

I agree. Bush should have just told the libbies to F off then call it either a "political speech" or "artistic freedom".
I am True Conservative (pro-life, pro-gun, pro-freedom-from-the-UN, small gov't, low taxes, strong military, etc.) I believe that we should have nuked Afghanistan. I believe that people should fend for themselves and not get money from the gov't. I believe in freedom of press and religion. I believe that you have the freedom to speak, but not to be heard. I believe that the UN is full of wussies. I believe guns are not evil, just people who misuse guns. I like to shoot guns, I do it as often as possible. I believe that you can change opinions, but not the nature of people.
If you had of "nuked Afghanistan", that just makes you an American "terrorist"?

What kind of religion are you putting forth here?

No, it's pretty easy actually. Basic healthcare in the US is quite affordable, and I'm not willing to lose another month or two of pay every year to fund a bloated, easily abused, unaccountable single-payer healthcare system. Nor do a vast majority of Americans, for that matter.


YOu do not know about American healthcare also. It is not nearly affordable. I have a mild heart condition and just to see the doctor is over two hundred dollars, to have the simplest test done it is over a grand. A one day hospital stay with nothing but a bed and some blood tests cost me five grand. Medicine will cost me two hundred at a minimum per month. If you break a leg, the ambulance ride will cost you in the excess of a thousand, the hospital visit will cost you tons of money and you are lucky to be seen within six hours of getting there. Now, these aren't major problems. I had no insurance untill this month and if I had bought insurance that would have covered even partially it would have cost me over two hundred a month. I would still be responsible for numerous costs connected with any situation, including 50 dollar copays for meds, 1000 dollar deductible for hospital visits plus ten percent etc. IN my situation you don't get the opportunity to get a good doctor, I make 24k a year and because I worked in the computer industry and got laid off. Well Visits for childred are over a hundred dollars and this isn't even for a good doctor. I still have more tests to do and it is more likely that I will die before they find out what is really going on. My insurance now still requires a bit of money up front.

YOu do not know about American healthcare also. It is not nearly affordable. I have a mild heart condition and just to see the doctor is over two hundred dollars, to have the simplest test done it is over a grand. A one day hospital stay with nothing but a bed and some blood tests cost me five grand. Medicine will cost me two hundred at a minimum per month. If you break a leg, the ambulance ride will cost you in the excess of a thousand, the hospital visit will cost you tons of money and you are lucky to be seen within six hours of getting there. Now, these aren't major problems. I had no insurance untill this month and if I had bought insurance that would have covered even partially it would have cost me over two hundred a month. I would still be responsible for numerous costs connected with any situation, including 50 dollar copays for meds, 1000 dollar deductible for hospital visits plus ten percent etc. IN my situation you don't get the opportunity to get a good doctor, I make 24k a year and because I worked in the computer industry and got laid off. Well Visits for childred are over a hundred dollars and this isn't even for a good doctor. I still have more tests to do and it is more likely that I will die before they find out what is really going on. My insurance now still requires a bit of money up front.
Another American, assured me that you don't need health insurance in the US, that they are duty bound to look after the sick and the dying.

BTW, I am sorry to hear about your health problems, hopefully, you will get well soon!!

[QUOTE=CanuckHeaven]Another American, assured me that you don't need health insurance in the US, that they are duty bound to look after the sick and the dying.

BTW, I am sorry to hear about your health problems, hopefully, you will get well soon!![


they have to do it at the hospitals only, only if it is an emergancy, for example you were in a serious car accident , having a heart attack etc and then if you live to tell about it. They bury you so deep in debt that you will never get out. My aunt was in an accident and after medical insurance she still owed 150k, how is that affordable for the average citizen?

Move to Calgary. When we talk 'politics', it's usually a discussion of how stupid our Aldermen are for taking several months to resolve the burning issue of whether the term 'Alderman' is sexist.

If Bush gets the Presidency again, a lot of people are going to be moving to Canada. I definitely wouldn't mind it.

Yes, I'm rather liberal. I guess it comes from growing up in a very liberal place. But I don't want Bush out just because he's a Republican. I want him out because he thinks he's our dictator. He's an idiot and a smartass at the same time, and it angers me. A lot. I don't really like Kerry, but just about anything is better than Bush. Really.

Another Calgarian! W00t!

Safest city in Canada! :p

Another Calgarian! W00t!

Safest city in Canada! :p Except for bovine rights activists during Stampede, but it's all good. :D

[QUOTE=CanuckHeaven]Another American, assured me that you don't need health insurance in the US, that they are duty bound to look after the sick and the dying.

BTW, I am sorry to hear about your health problems, hopefully, you will get well soon!![


they have to do it at the hospitals only, only if it is an emergancy, for example you were in a serious car accident , having a heart attack etc and then if you live to tell about it. They bury you so deep in debt that you will never get out. My aunt was in an accident and after medical insurance she still owed 150k, how is that affordable for the average citizen?
Yeah, that is sad. I prefer the "flawed" Canadian system to the broken American one.

Compare Canada, where everyone is forced to use the gutter-quality single-payer system and pay a huge premium to boot. No thanks.

Our health care system here in Canada is seen as most citizens as the number one priority...

I am quite a disease and health problem ridden guy(since I was born). In fact, I wouldnt have been granted life insurance if my parents had waited a week later than they did. They found out after I was accepted to get life insurance that I have the problems that I do. [just an insight to give an idea what kind of medical attention i need normally] I used to go to a specialist 2-3 times a year at least, plus numerous other visits. I value public health care very much, and so do everyone else I know.

I think a good indication of the kind of people Canadians are is that the majority of us adore public health care, although many of us can afford otherwise or just dont need extreme coverage. I sure wouldnt like to have the idea on my concience that so many ppl can get into 150k of debt over something that could be settled very inexpensively and easily with our health care system. And yes our 'E' rooms get overcrowed, like they do everywhere.. but thats why we have walk in clinics(guess what.. they take a 'care card' as well!)

Now what i guess im trying to say here is that it does have its flaws.. but Canadians tend to say YES PLEASE to it (with good reason). We just have to think about the future and our expendiatures with public assistance as noted before in this post.

BTW, I am sorry to hear about your health problems, hopefully, you will get well soon!!

Ditto.

Defecting to Canada never made much sense to me. A lot of my friends say that's what they'd like to do if Bush is re-elected. But if you just run away from problems, how can you make them better. So I'm sticking with the U.S, even if Bush is re-elected.

Defecting to Canada never made much sense to me. A lot of my friends say that's what they'd like to do if Bush is re-elected. But if you just run away from problems, how can you make them better. So I'm sticking with the U.S, even if Bush is re-elected.

Beautifully put.

It rather hinges on the definition of "you", doesn't it.

"But if you just run away from problems, how can you make them better?"

Thank you for being an American.

Just a question for you canadians, what are the gun laws in Canada?