NationStates Jolt Archive

then what do you suppose we feel after death?

Do we cease to care, cease to think, cease to exist, and cease to do anything?

Do we feel like we're locked in a dark closet with no one else around, just thinking about the stuff we should have done while we existed?

Do we just come back as someone else and make all the same mistakes over again?

What do you think will happen, assuming there is no God or Afterlife or anything like that... I mean, personally I believe in those things, but this question is posed to those who do not.

Do we just kinda helplessly exist in a state of nonexistance, with a feeling of sleeping with no hope of waking up?

Does all consciousness just cease, and you don't even think, sense, or do anything, like a computer that's been sent through a trash compactor, without even a spark of thought?

Man, that all sounds like hell to me... how could anyone hope for that?

Entropy, man.

Nothingness.

a void.

Your logic assumes that there will be a conciousness to feel alone, or scared, or feel anything at all.

You wont reflect upon your life, becuase you wont be thinking, or feeling.

When you go......your gone.

Nothing.

That... sucks... why do you even live then?

Does all consciousness just cease, and you don't even think, sense, or do anything, like a computer that's been sent through a trash compactor, without even a spark of thought?


Yep, that's the idea.

I admit it's tough for me to contemplate, but I'd imagine it would be eternal bliss. Kind of like a neverending dreamless sleep. To be perfectly honest, it doesn't sound too bad.

When you're dead, you feel nothing. So also nothing bad.

Eternal life is bound to get boring eventually.

That... sucks... why do you even live then?


Becuase the purpose of life is to make the most of the time you have.

Learn
Laugh
Love.

Whats so bad about that?

When you're dead, you feel nothing. So also nothing bad.

Eternal life is bound to get boring eventually.
lol... for another topic :)

That... sucks... why do you even live then?
Kinda makes it all seem pointless, doesn't it? The way I see it, the idea is just to have an overall positive impact on people as a whole in what little time we do have, and that gives our short existences some meaning. And like Milostein said, eternal life would get pretty damn boring.

Becuase the purpose of life is to make the most of the time you have.

Learn
Laugh
Love.

Whats so bad about that?
Purpose: The object toward which one strives or for which something exists; an aim or a goal

That doesn't sound like a purpose or goal, that just sounds like something to do to pass the time... Learning accomplishes nothing, if you just cease to exist. Laughing accomplishes nothing, and serves no long-term purpose. Love... well, I can't argue with love... :)

Dammit, why does someone always post what I'm thinking just as I'm typing it?

If you've never heard of Paschal's wager, it's worth a minute to read up on it.

Eternal bliss? Comparable to a really good movie that goes on and on, and keeps getting better - kind of like the Matrix till they made the sequels.

Kinda makes it all seem pointless, doesn't it? The way I see it, the idea is just to have an overall positive impact on people as a whole in what little time we do have, and that gives our short existences some meaning. And like Milostein said, eternal life would get pretty damn boring.why? Why leave an impact? When you cease to exist, you won't even care, will you?

are we sentient

Purpose: The object toward which one strives or for which something exists; an aim or a goal

That doesn't sound like a purpose or goal, that just sounds like something to do to pass the time... Learning accomplishes nothing, if you just cease to exist. Laughing accomplishes nothing, and serves no long-term purpose. Love... well, I can't argue with love... :)

Your insane.

What in the hell are you arguing against?

Your ruse is painfully thin, Raysia.

Tell me.....why do I need jeebus to life a full and happy life?

If you've never heard of Paschal's wager, it's worth a minute to read up on it.

Eternal bliss? Comparable to a really good movie that goes on and on, and keeps getting better - kind of like the Matrix till they made the sequels.
This is sans afterlife... the cessation of existance/feeling/consciousness

That... sucks... why do you even live then?
Everything comes to an end. Every good game, book, and film ends at some point. They're still enjoyable while they last. (There are attempts to make games (especially MMORPGs) and comic series that continue forever without important shifts in the world's power balance, but these are invariably not as much fun as their epic cousins - and even these must end eventually, at the very latest when the author dies.)

Why would life itself be any different? My purpose is to enjoy the "game" while it lasts, not to have it last forever. And I have no delusions of actually winning the game. I see it like Tetris, you can delay your defeat, but you can never really win. Fortunately, winning is not my goal. Enjoying the game is.

Your insane.

What in the hell are you arguing against?

Your ruse is painfully thin, Raysia.

Tell me.....why do I need jeebus to life a full and happy life?
I'm not asking about religion, calm down... I'm asking simply about those, such as yourself, who believe that there is nothing after death.

I am, however, asking how your feelings on death tie into your feelings on life... if before this life you were nothing, and after this you are nothing, and here you are something... why do you even care what kind of something you are? why do you go on living each day?

Eternal bliss? Comparable to a really good movie that goes on and on, and keeps getting better - kind of like the Matrix till they made the sequels.
The author is bound to run out of good ideas eventually - fact of life. Every series, if continued long enough, is guaranteed to eventually suck.

Everything comes to an end. Every good game, book, and film ends at some point. They're still enjoyable while they last. (There are attempts to make games (especially MMORPGs) and comic series that continue forever without important shifts in the world's power balance, but these are invariably not as much fun as their epic cousins - and even these must end eventually, at the very latest when the author dies.)

Why would life itself be any different? My purpose is to enjoy the "game" while it lasts, not to have it last forever. And I have no delusions of actually winning the game. I see it like Tetris, you can delay your defeat, but you can never really win. Fortunately, winning is not my goal. Enjoying the game is.
Who ever heard of a one-act play?

I am, however, asking how your feelings on death tie into your feelings on life... if before this life you were nothing, and after this you are nothing, and here you are something... why do you even care what kind of something you are? why do you go on living each day?
Why not?

Who ever heard of a one-act play?
Who ever heard of an infinite-act play?

I'm not asking about religion, calm down... I'm asking simply about those, such as yourself, who believe that there is nothing after death.

I am, however, asking how your feelings on death tie into your feelings on life... if before this life you were nothing, and after this you are nothing, and here you are something... why do you even care what kind of something you are? why do you go on living each day?


Its simple.

Ask yourself:

"Do I like Living?"

As a christian, you would say "yes" and probably make some correlation to Jesus as well, right?

I like living too, and Im an athiest, I dont need Jesus to be happy with my life.
The way I see it, the reward comes from making the most of my time on this planet, while Im still here.

Learning all I can.
Making freinds.
and being able to laugh at the world around me.


Thus, "make the most of what little time you have."

Its simple.

Ask yourself:

"Do I like Living?"

As a christian, you would say "yes" and probably make some correlation to Jesus as well, right?

I like living too, and Im an athiest, I dont need Jesus to be happy with my life.
The way I see it, the reward comes from making the most of my time on this planet, while Im still here.

Learning all I can.
Making freinds.
and being able to laugh at the world around me.


Thus, "make the most of what little time you have."

That's cool. Very respectable. Just one thing I'd like to bring up: a lot of religous people wouldn't say that they need their faith to be happy. A lot of evil people are happy. It's also a trust that there's something more to come. Hate me for the rest of your life if you need to, but I loved every minute of the Matrix trilogy. I'm glad there was more than one movie.

Its simple.

Ask yourself:

"Do I like Living?"

As a christian, you would say "yes" and probably make some correlation to Jesus as well, right?

I like living too, and Im an athiest, I dont need Jesus to be happy with my life.
The way I see it, the reward comes from making the most of my time on this planet, while Im still here.

Learning all I can.
Making freinds.
and being able to laugh at the world around me.


Thus, "make the most of what little time you have."
lol look, you're the only one bringing up Jesus here... I certainly didn't.

I live this life because I believe mortality is a probationary state, a time, a very short time, that we have been given to prove what we're made of, and to prove what we are capable of becoming. Yes, Jesus plays a part, a very big part, but he is not my sole reason for living. In grouping me in with Christians, you seem to have labelled me with stuff I do not believe... I do not believe our sole purpose in life is to glorify God and nothing else... that seems pointless. And I do not believe that after this life we will walk around having fun for eternity, because that too would seem pointless. Eternal life, as I know it, is just the next step in our eternal progression. We do not stop progressing at death, or at resurrection, we are constantly evolving.

Now people, quit being so ignorant and clumping me in with normal christians lol

Anyway, that's the basic version of why I live, and why I live the way I do.

To me, correct my ignorance if you can, it seems like your idea of life is like some sort of rocket ride... you're created from the materials of the earth, go on a long trip, have fun, go fast, and when you run out of fuel, hope you explode, or else you'll drift until you fall apart.

why? Why leave an impact? When you cease to exist, you won't even care, will you?
Because it's nice? No, you won't care, but hopefully others will, and that's enough for me.

Everything comes to an end. Every good game, book, and film ends at some point. They're still enjoyable while they last. (There are attempts to make games (especially MMORPGs) and comic series that continue forever without important shifts in the world's power balance, but these are invariably not as much fun as their epic cousins - and even these must end eventually, at the very latest when the author dies.)

Why would life itself be any different? My purpose is to enjoy the "game" while it lasts, not to have it last forever. And I have no delusions of actually winning the game. I see it like Tetris, you can delay your defeat, but you can never really win. Fortunately, winning is not my goal. Enjoying the game is.
Will you have my children? Oh wait... perhaps that was a bit too forward...

That... sucks... why do you even live then?

You're making the extremely flawed assumption that people have an external purpose. Many atheists, including myself, believe that our lives only have the purpose that we give to them.

This is sort of like the existential belief that existence preceeds essence, which basically means that we have an essence before we really become anything. For an existentialist, we actually create ourselves by our choices and our actions. While we have a body and mind right off the bat, we don't really BECOME anything until we start to make choices and act upon them.

I'm not necessarily saying that I'm an existentialist, but I do think that there is a lot of merit to these ideas and that they are worth considering.



For the person that mentioned Pascal's Wager, you're right. It IS worth a read. After reading it, feel free to ball it up and throw it into the trash.

Pascal's Wager says that you're better off acting as if there is a god and trying to make it happy, because if you don't, you might go to Hell or something. It breaks down like this:

1. If there is no god and you act as though there is no god, you've lost nothing.

2. If there is no god and you act as though there is a god, you've still lost nothing.

3. If there is a god and you act as though there is a god, you could get into Heaven or some other reward. Even if you don't get a reward, at least you won't be damned.

4. If there is a god and you act as though there is no god, you could be royally screwed and have demons sticking pitchforks in your cornhole.

There are a few MAJOR issues with this:

A. First off, how do you know which god you are supposed to live for? There are a whole bunch of montheistic religions that basically claim that their way of living is the only way, and if you don't play their game, you go to hell or come back as a tadpole or something. They can't all be right. Using the Christians as an example, there are thousands of gods that they DON'T worship. If even one of these is right, they're screwed.

B. Premise #2 states that you lose nothing if there's no god, but you act as though there is one. This is totally wrong. Take some of the more fundamental religions. These people spend their whole lives living as they think that their god wants them to, even though they would most certainly choose different if they did not have this belief.

If they are wrong, when they die, the lights go out and there is nothing for them after death. If this is the case, they have wasted THEIR ENTIRE EXISTENCE living for a fallacy instead of seeking their own happiness. They will have lived as slaves, and death will be their emancipation.

On the other side of the coin, if there is a big boogeyman in the sky who is going to send me a lake of fire after I die, I really have no problem with that. Although it would suck for the first little while, I'm sure that I'd build up a tolerance after a few centuries. Besides, I view the possibility of this as being so unlikely that I can pretty much discount it. I honestly feel that I have better odds of getting hit by lighting as my winning lottery numbers are drawn and I'm in bed with the Swedish Bikini Team. Besides, if my consiousness remains intact, I will have time to reflect on all the happiness that I have found on earth while alive. I will be able to use the knowledge that I lived as a free man and made my own choices according to my own ethics and values as my solace.

--P.

lol look, you're the only one bringing up Jesus here... I certainly didn't.

I live this life because I believe mortality is a probationary state, a time, a very short time, that we have been given to prove what we're made of, and to prove what we are capable of becoming. Yes, Jesus plays a part, a very big part, but he is not my sole reason for living. In grouping me in with Christians, you seem to have labelled me with stuff I do not believe... I do not believe our sole purpose in life is to glorify God and nothing else... that seems pointless. And I do not believe that after this life we will walk around having fun for eternity, because that too would seem pointless. Eternal life, as I know it, is just the next step in our eternal progression. We do not stop progressing at death, or at resurrection, we are constantly evolving.

Now people, quit being so ignorant and clumping me in with normal christians lol

Anyway, that's the basic version of why I live, and why I live the way I do.

To me, correct my ignorance if you can, it seems like your idea of life is like some sort of rocket ride... you're created from the materials of the earth, go on a long trip, have fun, go fast, and when you run out of fuel, hope you explode, or else you'll drift until you fall apart.


No.

I will not clump you into the catagory of "normal" christians if you do not clump me into the "life fast, die young" mentality.

Im not saying that we should live like a rock star type of thing...

The goal, as I see it, Is to accumulate and surround yourself with thing that bring true happiness.
Freinds, family, good books...maybe a Golden Retreiver....whatever floats your boat, and makes your life more full.
My personal philosophy is more about making the most of the time I have, rather than preparing for something in the next life.

ok, an answer that makes some sense, thanks.

ok, an answer that makes some sense, thanks.

Your welcome.

Dont make me slap you.

lol sheesh, take your Midol

lol sheesh, take your Midol


Thats IT!

You are SO getting slapped.

Go ahead, just remember that wager... if there is a god... you get pitchforked... or some crap like that lol

Will you have my children? Oh wait... perhaps that was a bit too forward...
No. If only because I'm male.

No. If only because I'm male.

There are available operations nowadays...

There are available operations nowadays...
They're purely cosmetic. They don't actually grant you biological functions that you didn't have before.

They're purely cosmetic. They don't actually grant you biological functions that you didn't have before.

You're no fun.

To bad, we'll just be an infinite number of molecules, floating in an more infinite number of molecules. By this way: life is just a few molecules thinking tey are more inportant than all the others, feeling existing and living and thinking and all.

No LifeAfterDeath for me, I'll be a part of a million others...

I do believe that we simply cease to exist when we die. It doesn't bother me, I see life as being precious because it is finite.

If I lived forever, there would be no reason to treasure each moment. No reason to do anything. There will be a neverending series of moments just like the one that is passing now, even if I sleep through a billion of them, there will always be more to replace it. Forever.

If my life is finite, each moment and memory is precious. You only have so many, and then it's gone. So you make the most of what you have, while you have it. And if you do so, when the end comes, it won't matter.

But that's just me.

What about ghosties???

Surely that points to some sort of overall spirituality???

like the way we only use 10% of our brains...

Also why is it a mate of mine can put five coins on the table, leave the room, I'll point to one of 'em (they can be identical denominations by the way) and he always knows which one I pointed to... I didn't even touch the damn thing...

There is more in this life then we'll ever possibly understand...

Billy Pilgrim has come unstuck in time...

What's more important than what happens after we die? What happens while we are here.

Once we are dead we have to assume we can't do anything or now anything at all. So we have to live each day like tomorrow we won't exist.

What about ghosties???
They don't exist.

like the way we only use 10% of our brains...
Urban legend. Not true.

Also why is it a mate of mine can put five coins on the table, leave the room, I'll point to one of 'em (they can be identical denominations by the way) and he always knows which one I pointed to... I didn't even touch the damn thing...
Because he's watching you secretly through a window? Because you always point to the same one?

There is more in this life then we'll ever possibly understand...
True. So why do people pretend to understand it by claiming "God did it!!!!!!111"?

like the way we only use 10% of our brains...


What's this "we"?!? Do you have a tapeworm or something? If you only use 10% of your brain, feel free to chainsaw the other 90% off.

It has been scientifically proven that we use our entire brains. It is just not known exactly for what, and all parts of it aren't active at the same time.

In my experience, the only people who use only 10% of their brains are religious fundamentalists.

--P.

Go ahead, just remember that wager... if there is a god... you get pitchforked... or some crap like that lol
There is a God and HE is making notes. :eek:

That... sucks... why do you even live then?
so the only reason to do anything is if that action will endure forever? why do you eat, since you will eventually be full and stop eating? why play the piano, since you will eventually stop to rest or do other things? why paint a masterpiece, since once it is done you will never have the experience of painting that masterpiece again?

just because something is finite doesn't mean it is worth any less. indeed, things are, in my opinion, far more precious and valuable when they are not eternal; if you were going to live forever then why do anything? why go to see the Pyramids, when you could always (ALWAYS) do it tomorrow? why improve your golf swing when you know you have eternity to perfect it, and therefore you are guaranteed to be pretty much perfect at it eventually?

people brought up plays, one-act versus infinite-act, and i would make an additional note that anybody who has spent time in the theatre knows that the duration of a play does not correlate to how powerful, moving, or brilliant it is. some very long plays are terrible, and some brief skits or monologues are amazing...how long something lasts is not necessarily at all related to how good or worthwhile it is.

my question is, if you believe in heaven then how do you manage to procreate? after all, you could kill your baby and send it straight to paradise, allowing it to avoid all the pain and hardship of living, and it would live in perfection and happiness forever...sure, you personally would go to hell for murder, but what parent wouldn't be willing to sacrifice themselves for their children? if i truly believed in heaven i would go around murdering every newborn i could find, to make sure they didn't have time to sin or suffer at all, and they would be happy and safe for eternity

In all reality it is impossible for us to imagine what death is like, because in death, we are gone, we don't feel or think at all, everything has left us, we are just an empty crate

This raises an interesting point... According to those who believe in an afterlife, what do our souls "look like" in this afterlife? Are they representations of how we looked when we died, or some fixed age, or our age at the time of our greatest accomplishment? Or does our soul not look like our body at all? (Most depictions of heaven or hell show them as physical places with physical inhabitants.) And what about mentally? If we died as a baby, or after suffering senile dementia, what are our mental abilities is the afterlife?

This raises an interesting point... According to those who believe in an afterlife, what do our souls "look like" in this afterlife? Are they representations of how we looked when we died, or some fixed age, or our age at the time of our greatest accomplishment? Or does our soul not look like our body at all? (Most depictions of heaven or hell show them as physical places with physical inhabitants.) And what about mentally? If we died as a baby, or after suffering senile dementia, what are our mental abilities is the afterlife?

CHAIRMAN: ...Which brings us once again to the urgent realisation of just how much there is still left to own. Item six on the agenda: the meaning of life. Now, uh, Harry, you've had some thoughts on this.

HARRY: That's right. Yeah, I've had a team working on this over the past few weeks, and, uh, what we've come up with can be reduced to two fundamental concepts. One: people are not wearing enough hats. Two: matter is energy. In the universe, there are many energy fields which we cannot normally perceive. Some energies have a spiritual source which act upon a person's soul. However, this soul does not exist ab initio, as orthodox Christianity teaches. It has to be brought into existence by a process of guided self-observation. However, this is rarely achieved, owing to man's unique ability to be distracted from spiritual matters by everyday trivia.

[pause]

BERT: What was that about hats, again?

You know whats a cool thing to do? Okay, imagine you've been killed. Now you're floating in pure blackness, a void of some kind.. Then you disappear! Gone forever! Try to imagine ceasing to exist and never coming back. When I do that my brain kind of wonks out, because it can't handle the idea of no feelings, no senses... nothing.

Well, I don't know if we'll feel nothingness and I don't know if we'll go to heaven or hell. Is it ok if I wait until I die to find out instead of making a decision now?

This raises an interesting point... According to those who believe in an afterlife, what do our souls "look like" in this afterlife? Are they representations of how we looked when we died, or some fixed age, or our age at the time of our greatest accomplishment? Or does our soul not look like our body at all? (Most depictions of heaven or hell show them as physical places with physical inhabitants.) And what about mentally? If we died as a baby, or after suffering senile dementia, what are our mental abilities is the afterlife?

I went to a catholic school and we discussed this. My principal said we would probably be around the prime of our life - age 25 or so. Seeing as heaven is supposed to be "devoid of pain," I doubt that any diseases would exist.

I went to a catholic school and we discussed this. My principal said we would probably be around the prime of our life - age 25 or so. Seeing as heaven is supposed to be "devoid of pain," I doubt that any diseases would exist.
So people who died before reaching 25. Would they suddenly mature? Or would they be like children in an adult's body?

I would imagine that they suddenly mature. Theology isn't my subject.

FFS!
Once you are dead,thats it,nothing,nada,zip.
Not "floating around" etc.
There is nothing to float around,get it?
You borrow molecules from the universe for your stay on earth.When you die your molecules are redistributed into the universe to feed plants and worms and shit.
You have served your purpose.

No. If only because I'm male.
Oh. Damn.

so the only reason to do anything is if that action will endure forever? why do you eat, since you will eventually be full and stop eating? why play the piano, since you will eventually stop to rest or do other things? why paint a masterpiece, since once it is done you will never have the experience of painting that masterpiece again?

just because something is finite doesn't mean it is worth any less. indeed, things are, in my opinion, far more precious and valuable when they are not eternal; if you were going to live forever then why do anything? why go to see the Pyramids, when you could always (ALWAYS) do it tomorrow? why improve your golf swing when you know you have eternity to perfect it, and therefore you are guaranteed to be pretty much perfect at it eventually?

people brought up plays, one-act versus infinite-act, and i would make an additional note that anybody who has spent time in the theatre knows that the duration of a play does not correlate to how powerful, moving, or brilliant it is. some very long plays are terrible, and some brief skits or monologues are amazing...how long something lasts is not necessarily at all related to how good or worthwhile it is.

my question is, if you believe in heaven then how do you manage to procreate? after all, you could kill your baby and send it straight to paradise, allowing it to avoid all the pain and hardship of living, and it would live in perfection and happiness forever...sure, you personally would go to hell for murder, but what parent wouldn't be willing to sacrifice themselves for their children? if i truly believed in heaven i would go around murdering every newborn i could find, to make sure they didn't have time to sin or suffer at all, and they would be happy and safe for eternity
you seem to have answered my question with more questions directed at me... this isn't about what I believe, it's about what you believe. I think I understand now... but obviously you don't understand me if you think I believe the latter paragraph lol

you seem to have answered my question with more questions directed at me... this isn't about what I believe, it's about what you believe.
Many of the questions look like they were rhetorical - not asked to gain information, but rather with the connotation that the answers themselves (or sometimes, the fact that an answer cannot be given) support his viewpoint.

Also, challenging the opponent's viewpoint makes sense. A lot of people believe in atheism simply because all the alternatives are stupid.

I think I understand now... but obviously you don't understand me if you think I believe the latter paragraph lol
Okay, so can you explain to me exactly where the flaw in his reasoning lies?