NationStates Jolt Archive

I think that we should make servitude a punishment for certain criminals. I'm against all the isms and don't want anybody put into slavery because of race sex or religion I believe that servitude for those who commit crimes is logical though. Make them pay back for what they did.

I think that we should make servitude a punishment for certain criminals. I'm against all the isms and don't want anybody put into slavery because of race sex or religion I believe that servitude for those who commit crimes is logical though. Make them pay back for what they did.


We already do that.

Inmates in most prisons are required to work.

I think that we should make servitude a punishment for certain criminals. I'm against all the isms and don't want anybody put into slavery because of race sex or religion I believe that servitude for those who commit crimes is logical though. Make them pay back for what they did.
Nothing wrong with making them productive members of society while incarcerated. However, they should only do jobs that they are physically capable of?

But they do menial jobs like cleaning the sides of highways and making liscence plates. What I mean is to make them go out into fields under the whip and break big rocks with sledgehammers and all sorts of things. How about compulsory military service to some of them. Give them a gun and a parchute and send them on there way. What you talk about they also get paid for. Why pay them? I see no reason for that. You want to refuse to work? How about a good flogging instead? See where I'm going with this?

Nothing wrong with making them productive members of society while incarcerated. However, they should only do jobs that they are physically capable of?

If they are incapable do to a handicap or age maybe they can be a walk around servant kind of like a butler. If they are as bad as they can't even do that then they may stay in there cell.

But they do menial jobs like cleaning the sides of highways and making liscence plates. What I mean is to make them go out into fields under the whip and break big rocks with sledgehammers and all sorts of things. How about compulsory military service to some of them. Give them a gun and a parchute and send them on there way. What you talk about they also get paid for. Why pay them? I see no reason for that. You want to refuse to work? How about a good flogging instead? See where I'm going with this?

Yeah, unfortunately I do. In any event. I voted no. Pretty self-explanatory.

Alot of prisons help suppor themselves by having the convicts work on prison-owned farmlands. And would you really trust an embittered criminal to fight for you?

But they do menial jobs like cleaning the sides of highways and making liscence plates. What I mean is to make them go out into fields under the whip and break big rocks with sledgehammers and all sorts of things. How about compulsory military service to some of them. Give them a gun and a parchute and send them on there way. What you talk about they also get paid for. Why pay them? I see no reason for that. You want to refuse to work? How about a good flogging instead? See where I'm going with this?


Yes, I do....but ask yourself this:

Would you be making them into a useful person when their eventual release came, or would you be creating hateful monsters that no longer can be useful to society?

That tired old 'I'm against all isms' line is just another way to say 'I'm unique, just like everybody else!' It's kinda funny that so many people who claim that their worldveiw cannot be boxed into a system choose to express this with a trite cliche.

I do trust them to fight for me just because there is noewhere they can go if u drop them out of a plane now is there? I don't think they would fair too well if they were droped into the middle of an Iraqi hot zone. Better than death though, no?

you can be pro slavery all you want

its still illegal

How about compulsory military service to some of them. Give them a gun and a parchute and send them on there way.

Great idea. Give them the skills to attack a person in most situations and other military tactics and you'll probably see mass escapes of prisoners from prisons.

I do trust them to fight for me just because there is noewhere they can go if u drop them out of a plane now is there? I don't think they would fair too well if they were droped into the middle of an Iraqi hot zone. Better than death though, no?

Well, they could just team up with your enemy. :rolleyes: It's not like they have any reason to help you. And you have been so kind as to give them a weapon and ammunition with which to kill your side.

But they do menial jobs like cleaning the sides of highways and making liscence plates. What I mean is to make them go out into fields under the whip and break big rocks with sledgehammers and all sorts of things. How about compulsory military service to some of them. Give them a gun and a parchute and send them on there way. What you talk about they also get paid for. Why pay them? I see no reason for that. You want to refuse to work? How about a good flogging instead? See where I'm going with this?
Yeah I do and you lost me. You want to give criminals a gun in a war zone? You want to flog them? Can't support those goals.

I do trust them to fight for me just because there is noewhere they can go if u drop them out of a plane now is there? I don't think they would fair too well if they were droped into the middle of an Iraqi hot zone. Better than death though, no?

You dont get it.

If I were one of these criminals, once you drop me out of a plane.....IM GONE.
Screw you, and your war..now Ive got a gun, and if you want me...come and get me!

Thats how it would be.

Yes, I do....but ask yourself this:

Would you be making them into a useful person when their eventual release came, or would you be creating hateful monsters that no longer can be useful to society?

Fear of going back will stop them from doing it again. No more 3 strikes though you have your chance as a servant and then if you are released that is your final chance. After being brought back again no release for you.

You dont get it.

If I were one of these criminals, once you drop me out of a plane.....IM GONE.
Screw you, and your war..now Ive got a gun, and if you want me...come and get me!

Thats how it would be.

your out of a plane in the middle of a war in Iraq. Where are you going to go? WE DONT WANT YOU thats the point.

Fear of going back will stop them from doing it again. No more 3 strikes though you have your chance as a servant and then if you are released that is your final chance. After being brought back again no release for you.


You should do some reading about Prisons.

It just doesnt work like that.

You would end up making monsters that would no longer be able to fit into normal soceities.
Career criminals are what you would end up with.

Well, they could just team up with your enemy. :rolleyes: It's not like they have any reason to help you. And you have been so kind as to give them a weapon and ammunition with which to kill your side.

Very true there is a downside. But isn't there a downside to everything? I doubt they would be able to team up with an american flag on there shirt though.

Very true there is a downside. But isn't there a downside to everything? I doubt they would be able to team up with an american flag on there shirt though.

Yeah, they couldn't take off their shirt. Or take the flag off their shirt. Besides, there is the very true old saying: The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Essentially, you're giving your enemy its army.

But they do menial jobs like cleaning the sides of highways and making liscence plates. What I mean is to make them go out into fields under the whip and break big rocks with sledgehammers and all sorts of things. How about compulsory military service to some of them. Give them a gun and a parchute and send them on there way. What you talk about they also get paid for. Why pay them? I see no reason for that. You want to refuse to work? How about a good flogging instead? See where I'm going with this?

Dont you think thousands of days staring at stone walls, deprivation of freedom and removal of a persons life for a period is punishment enough? I mean 'flogging' them as well would be like punching someone after youve shot them in the chest. Basically completely unnecessary.

Another thing, why the hell would you want to give criminals the means to become better killers? Yeah give them guns sure why not. I see where you are going with these ideas but really none of them are effective as deterents against crime, they are however very good at making people angry.

your out of a plane in the middle of a war in Iraq. Where are you going to go? WE DONT WANT YOU thats the point.


Doesnt matter what you want.
No one is going to fight for you, if you give them no choice.
You cant make criminals into soldeirs, they have no reason to want you to succeed.

Mostly, they would desert.

Have read about prisons. Career criminals that is not unlike what we have now with the mafia and gangs. They go in they get out and they do what they want again. Instead of doing what we do now make them afraid to go. Terrified to the pt that they don't want to even think about doing anything illegal.

your out of a plane in the middle of a war in Iraq. Where are you going to go? WE DONT WANT YOU thats the point.
Hey...maybe you could go with them and give them instructions?

Hey...maybe you could go with them and give them instructions?


Haha good one. I'm no criminal though. No need to get nasty it's just a friendly debate.

Have read about prisons. Career criminals that is not unlike what we have now with the mafia and gangs. They go in they get out and they do what they want again. Instead of doing what we do now make them afraid to go. Terrified to the pt that they don't want to even think about doing anything illegal.


Your talking about Mental Conditioning...

That doesnt work.

It wears off too soon to be effective.

Watch "A Clockwork Orange".

They have experimented the same techniques on Pedophiles.
It only worked for about six months.

Your talking about Mental Conditioning...

That doesnt work.

It wears off too soon to be effective.

Watch "A Clockwork Orange".

They have experimented the same techniques on Pedophiles.
It only worked for about six months.

Pedophiles wouldn't have the chance to do it again though. They would be stuck in prison. No more freedom for you.

I'll have to check that movie out.

It's getting far to deep into the AM I'm going to get some sleep and check back here tomorrow.

No I haven't given in or given up.

Pedophiles wouldn't have the chance to do it again though. They would be stuck in prison. No more freedom for you.

I'll have to check that movie out.


So, in other words, you offer no chance at redemption for most crimes.
Once a person commits a crime, they are to be worked unto death, beaten regularly, and not given any chances to become worthy members of society.

Ask yourself this:

What if your own mother commited a crime and went to prison?
Isnt it fair that while she be made to pay for her crime, that she should not be treated to cruel and unusual punishments?

Would you be willing to see your own mother flogged and beaten, and made to break rocks with a hammer?

Your talking about Mental Conditioning...

That doesnt work.

It wears off too soon to be effective.

Watch "A Clockwork Orange".

They have experimented the same techniques on Pedophiles.
It only worked for about six months.
Awesome movie!! Makes you wonder about mankind though huh?

what ur talking about aka going out with a whip and breaking rocks is really quite cruel. Yes i believe criminals aren't sentenced harshly enough but its not like they get paid more than a few dollars when they work

Have read about prisons. Career criminals that is not unlike what we have now with the mafia and gangs. They go in they get out and they do what they want again. Instead of doing what we do now make them afraid to go. Terrified to the pt that they don't want to even think about doing anything illegal.

If you're proposing torture that would be in violation of the constitution.

Believe me, giving them guns is a very bad idea. As someone said earlier, you'd be giving your enemy an army. Why would they ever fight for those who had imprisoned them? You say they have nowhere to go, but they do have somewhere to go: your enemy's ranks. You say that the enemy wouldn't take them, but the enemy would probably be eager to get 'defectors,' especially in large numbers, already carrying their own weapons.

Your plan of making them fearful of ever returning seems to imply torture. That is illegal according to the highest law in the land, the constitution.

Idiotic.

You people come up with the most utterly uncomprehensible ideas.

._.

I think that we should make servitude a punishment for certain criminals. I'm against all the isms and don't want anybody put into slavery because of race sex or religion I believe that servitude for those who commit crimes is logical though. Make them pay back for what they did.

That's not slavery - that's just a labor sentence

So, in other words, you offer no chance at redemption for most crimes.
Once a person commits a crime, they are to be worked unto death, beaten regularly, and not given any chances to become worthy members of society.

Ask yourself this:

What if your own mother commited a crime and went to prison?
Isnt it fair that while she be made to pay for her crime, that she should not be treated to cruel and unusual punishments?

Would you be willing to see your own mother flogged and beaten, and made to break rocks with a hammer?

As was said certain crimes. Smaller less inhumane crimes would be less punishable then those that are horrible. If my mother were to commit a crime then she should pay for it as everyone else. I don't see why she should get any differnt treatment. They wouldn't be very unusual if we did them all the time now would they? They would be just cruel. And don't some prisoners deserve what I'm talking about?

If you're proposing torture that would be in violation of the constitution.

What we are talking about now is a violation of the constitution. I never said anything about torture though. I am talking about work sentences and possible servitude. The pain and suffering of a hard days work. If you refuse or slow down thats when you get the whip.

Believe me, giving them guns is a very bad idea. As someone said earlier, you'd be giving your enemy an army. Why would they ever fight for those who had imprisoned them? You say they have nowhere to go, but they do have somewhere to go: your enemy's ranks. You say that the enemy wouldn't take them, but the enemy would probably be eager to get 'defectors,' especially in large numbers, already carrying their own weapons.

Your plan of making them fearful of ever returning seems to imply torture. That is illegal according to the highest law in the land, the constitution.

As was said before. What we have been talking about is not going eye to eye with the constitution. But hasn't it been changed before? I think once woman weren't allowed to vote right? As to them joining enemy ranks. This was just an idea maybe it won't work but when I say drop them in you don't drop them in somewhere they may be able to do anything drop them in where they are forced to kill or get killed. Also drop them into places where even if they were to join enemy forces they could easily be whiped out by a bomb or 2.
Another point to be made. We already have had prisoners sent to war in return for a lesser sentence.

3 main purposes of criminal law:
a) retribution
b) deterrence
c) rehabilitation

I don't see how slavery would fulfil any of those criteria. If it were retribution, maybe, but in the long run it would be stupid. Slavery just does not work in todays society. Slaves have no money, therefore they cannot participate in the economy, which can be very damaging to a society. If you're looking at deterrence, have a look at the crimes where the punishment is a mandatory life sentence. They still happen. As for rehab, you're way out of the ball park.

Don't forget, criminal law serves a purpose, you can't have punishments just because they seem "cool".

Slavery is a terrible thing. I have no love for it.

As was said before. What we have been talking about is not going eye to eye with the constitution. But hasn't it been changed before? I think once woman weren't allowed to vote right? As to them joining enemy ranks. This was just an idea maybe it won't work but when I say drop them in you don't drop them in somewhere they may be able to do anything drop them in where they are forced to kill or get killed. Also drop them into places where even if they were to join enemy forces they could easily be whiped out by a bomb or 2.
Another point to be made. We already have had prisoners sent to war in return for a lesser sentence.

What's the point of putting your criminalslavetroops in somewhere when you have chosen a place where a bomb would do just as good a job. You're not playing a game, it's a war, so you don't waste criminalslavetroops where you don't need them.

And in recognition of your point, that would be voluntary, wouldn't it. Not the same as forcing people into kill or be kill situations simply because you have a duty of care over them.

Slavery is a terrible thing. I have no love for it.

To quote an awesome movie, "No empire should be made on the backs of slaves".
And yeah... slavery in a modern world is just illogical. We already have a form of it, it's called capitalism. Slavery without the whips.

But they do menial jobs like cleaning the sides of highways and making liscence plates. What I mean is to make them go out into fields under the whip and break big rocks with sledgehammers and all sorts of things. How about compulsory military service to some of them. Give them a gun and a parchute and send them on there way. What you talk about they also get paid for. Why pay them? I see no reason for that. You want to refuse to work? How about a good flogging instead? See where I'm going with this?

Give

Criminals

WEAPONS???

...what a 'tard...

I'm going to assume the role of one of your criminal slaves. Okay, you catch me doing something bad. You send me off to a war I don't care about. You give me a gun. I'm a criminal, I'm probaly pretty good with a gun. So I shoot you. Then I nick off into the wilderness, and either find myself a buff local guy, or defect to the enemy side. Better still, I steal your plane and go back to your country. And now I have a plane. Oooh. I'm a slave. Nothing to lose. This sounds FUN.

What's the point of putting your criminalslavetroops in somewhere when you have chosen a place where a bomb would do just as good a job. You're not playing a game, it's a war, so you don't waste criminalslavetroops where you don't need them.

And in recognition of your point, that would be voluntary, wouldn't it. Not the same as forcing people into kill or be kill situations simply because you have a duty of care over them.

If the criminals were to do the job for us then we would not have to waste a bomb. Some places are better taken by force and occupied but then later when it is seen that this was a bad idea they get bombed.

What is the differnect between voluntary and involuntary in this situation though. They couldn't be trusted either way.

Giving criminals weapons and a chance to join the military isn't a new concept, nor is it necessarily a bad one. During colonial times the British army was largely made up of minor criminals who were given the choice between a normal punishment (i.e. jail) or military service. This was hugely successful; the British army was the most powerful in the world at the time.

it certainly is an intresting idea. I wouldn't support it personnally and I'm sure the human rights groups would attack a country that did use this type of punishment. there are merits and problems with this idea and I think that the cons outweigh the pros. I wonder if there is an issue which deals with this idea...

Have read about prisons. Career criminals that is not unlike what we have now with the mafia and gangs. They go in they get out and they do what they want again. Instead of doing what we do now make them afraid to go. Terrified to the pt that they don't want to even think about doing anything illegal.

Trust me, I study criminal law. "Terrifying" them doesn't work. If it did, don't you think many more places would use capital punishment?

I'm going to assume the role of one of your criminal slaves. Okay, you catch me doing something bad. You send me off to a war I don't care about. You give me a gun. I'm a criminal, I'm probaly pretty good with a gun. So I shoot you. Then I nick off into the wilderness, and either find myself a buff local guy, or defect to the enemy side. Better still, I steal your plane and go back to your country. And now I have a plane. Oooh. I'm a slave. Nothing to lose. This sounds FUN.

Do I really have to be as specific as to go into a step by step process in which there is no way for you to shoot me? Seriously though I never gave you the chance hey heres your gun o no it has its safty on *as your falling out the plane* problem solved. Steal my plane? How are you going to steal a plane? When was the last time a plane was stolen? I don't remember hearing anything of the sort besides hijackings and that doesn't really count now does it?

Trust me, I study criminal law. "Terrifying" them doesn't work. If it did, don't you think many more places would use capital punishment?

More people should use capital punishment...As to your comment there is nothing can say besides I don't want to trust you.

:mp5: Yes yes of course give them a gun!

or maybe you should turn the into psycos by giving them slave labor..... :headbang: their situation is bad enough! But you can bring back slave labor!! Of course!! (you cant understand if someone is ironic on internet forums can you?)

The word is sarcastic not ironic. :)

I think that we should make servitude a punishment for certain criminals. I'm against all the isms and don't want anybody put into slavery because of race sex or religion I believe that servitude for those who commit crimes is logical though. Make them pay back for what they did.
I don't think it's that simple. First of all, the purpose of the criminal justice system is not punishment; it's propping up the status quo. You can argue whether that's a good or a bad thing, but it's a fact. So depriving people of liberty and forcing them to whore themselves out to work at a factory, and if they can't make the cut, putting them in prison, in my mind is criminal injustice.

Second, I think the criminal justice system ought to serve a utilitarian purpose, not the role of punishment. I agree with Bertrand Russell, that if somebody commits a crime against society, the first concern should be the happiness of society, then that of the criminal. It is vindictive to inflict suffering unless it serves a material purpose of bettering the lot of humanity.

The word is sarcastic not ironic. :)
Actually, "irony" is, in this context, a proper synonym for "sarcasm".

Actually, "irony" is, in this context, a proper synonym for "sarcasm".

Hey lookie there your right. eh..I had the definition a bit skewed.

But they do menial jobs like cleaning the sides of highways and making liscence plates. What I mean is to make them go out into fields under the whip and break big rocks with sledgehammers and all sorts of things. How about compulsory military service to some of them. Give them a gun and a parchute and send them on there way. What you talk about they also get paid for. Why pay them? I see no reason for that. You want to refuse to work? How about a good flogging instead? See where I'm going with this?

The only proplem is that section of the constitution which talks about creul and unusual punishment. And also where do you draw the line. I was drunk, get arrested and now get sent off to war! By the time I get there my arrest time is up.

Dont you think thousands of days staring at stone walls, deprivation of freedom and removal of a persons life for a period is punishment enough? I mean 'flogging' them as well would be like punching someone after youve shot them in the chest. Basically completely unnecessary.How'bout we just Flog them?

Also if I was on a jury and I have to send them to a war zone, I may believe they did the crime, but vote no for humanitarian reasons. You might have a lot more criminals getting off scott free.

Giving criminals weapons and a chance to join the military isn't a new concept, nor is it necessarily a bad one. During colonial times the British army was largely made up of minor criminals who were given the choice between a normal punishment (i.e. jail) or military service. This was hugely successful; the British army was the most powerful in the world at the time.
Todays USArmy has some "Programs"...
Sometimes the system will give you a Choice...Jail or Service...

I agree we should give them tougher jobs than they are currently getting. I don't see how breaking rocks with sledgehammers is productive, though. I want to have them do something more productive. Perhaps for those serving longer sentences, a few years in the military will wip them in shape. Maybe we can plant fields around a prison, and make them farm. Or the fact that manufacturing, particularly textiles, is fleeing the country is because of high labor costs. Why not some firms build factories near prisons (or part of them), and they can get labor for absolutly no cost. Before you know it, China, Vietnam, and the other manufacturers in Asia will be doing the same.

Speaking of giving weapons to criminals... the ancient Chinese once used an interesting although gruesome tactic : they sent convicted criminals who cut their throats defore the walls of a besieged city. The defenders were so scared that they offered little resistence to the assaulting army. But I suppose it worked once, but no more after.

Speaking of giving weapons to criminals... the ancient Chinese once used an interesting although gruesome tactic : they sent convicted criminals who cut their throats defore the walls of a besieged city. The defenders were so scared that they offered little resistence to the assaulting army. But I suppose it worked once, but no more after.
Well, the Chinese mustn't have taken the time to discipline them. That's a given for any armed prisoners today.

Americans debated the pros and cons of slavery a long time ago. Then there was a war. Thousands of people died. The people that didn't like it won, and declared slavery forbidden.

What exactly don't you understand about that?

Contrary to popular belief slavery still exists in this country. Only instead of not paying them we pay them an excessively large amount of cash. These people are bought, sold and traded all the time and go by the name of professional athletes. I think it’s sickening.

Todays USArmy has some "Programs"...
Sometimes the system will give you a Choice...Jail or Service...

Those programs dont exist anymore. And it wouldnt work in todays military. Too many "feel good" programs and regulations now. Boot camp isnt even boot camps anymore. Recruits are allowed to opt out of any excersize if they feel they are "too stressed out" to participate.

Contrary to popular belief slavery still exists in this country. Only instead of not paying them we pay them an excessively large amount of cash. These people are bought, sold and traded all the time and go by the name of professional athletes. I think it’s sickening.
The real slaves in this case are the fans that fork over huge bucks to watch THEIR? mercenaries play.

The players are slaves? They are mercenaries.

Americans debated the pros and cons of slavery a long time ago. Then there was a war. Thousands of people died. The people that didn't like it won, and declared slavery forbidden.

What exactly don't you understand about that?


The civil war wasn't about slavery buddy. Slavery was brought in so outside countrys woulnd't help the south.

I am not talking about throwing an average citizen into jail becaue they dont want to work. Not all criminals would go to war it would be another option for them to go into instead of hard labor. Those that have minor crimes would do there share of work and be on there way. Strike one Strike to your out. you go to jail if you come back either capital punishment or war. If you don't want to work (this is for those in the prisons) then you get beaten or what not. As to those going to war of course this would not be for everyone those that ar highly inteligent and see a benefit of maybe joining the opposing enemy somehow would be put to some other task. those that are sent to war are put into situations where they kill or get killed. Another point I am talking about a change not going by what we have now. If we were to change then the constitution would work its way around the prisons punishment structure system. They do still have the option of going into war in exchange for a lighter sentence but for this situation it wouldnt be as much of a choice as a punishment.

A new point. The French Foreign Legion was made almost solely on unwilling soldiers and slaves. People would pass out in bars and wake up on a boat with a uniform waiting to be put on and then sent into war. Granted the french did not hold up to well in WW1 but the french foreign legion was almost undefeated. It worked for them why not us?

what i would do is i would just arrest everyone in my nation cause all of us have probably commited a crime anyway, right? so i would arrest everyone and deal capital punishment at random and see what happens

ts fair this way and everyone can complain together!


im bringing unity and peace and love!


or i could jus do what that other guy is saying, put them on planes and push them out, just throw them out blindfolded in like sweden, or something


or ship th em all somewhere

what i would do is i would just arrest everyone in my nation cause all of us have probably commited a crime anyway, right? so i would arrest everyone and deal capital punishment at random and see what happens

ts fair this way and everyone can complain together!


im bringing unity and peace and love!


or i could jus do what that other guy is saying, put them on planes and push them out, just throw them out blindfolded in like sweden, or something


or ship th em all somewhere


Shiping them somwhere. You know that Australia was originaly used as a prison. Ya thats right they would get a ship and drop em off there. I can't seem to recall who it was. The English come to mind. But that can't be right...

The civil war wasn't about slavery buddy. Slavery was brought in so outside countrys woulnd't help the south.
Then what was it about? States Rights? What rights? The right to have slaves. Nullification? The right to nullify what? Anti-slavery legislation. The South's economic system? Oh yeah, that was slavery too.

Everything boils down to one thing...slavery.

Then what was it about? States Rights? What rights? The right to have slaves. Nullification? The right to nullify what? Anti-slavery legislation. The South's economic system? Oh yeah, that was slavery too.

Everything boils down to one thing...slavery.

If the South did not try to succeed from the Union there would have never been a war. Slavery was on its way out anyway the war just sped it up a bit. The south wanted more state rights while the north wanted a strong central government. Basically everything boils down to the same problems they had during the revolutionary days.

As to the comment before about how slavery is illegal. Yes i know that and I will say it again CHANGE if everything were to stay the same with the constitution only white males would vote but that changed now didn't it? As to they won the war it has to be right. That is very much wrong. Wars have been won that were wrong. Germany almost won WW2 are you saying that if they won only blonde hair blue eye christians should be allowed to LIVE? I think not. Don't get me wrong I don't want slavery to those that do not deserve it. For ex. I don't want anybody enslaved do to race religion or sex. Criminals I am talking about. Slackening the Constitution to those in prisons. They commit a hanous crime they don't deserve the rights of the ordinary law abiding citizen.

(sorry for all of the spelling errors)