NationStates Jolt Archive

There is serious talk now of repealing the 16th amendment. Should we?

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment16/

I think we should. The government has to realize that we work for ourselves and not for it.

There is serious talk now of repealing the 16th amendment.
Who's doing the serious talking, Biff? Nothing obvious in the provided link indicates a Repeal Amendment. Is this just the usual muttering of the Anti-16th crowd, or is there something new?

Who's doing the serious talking, Biff? Nothing obvious in the provided link indicates a Repeal Amendment. Is this just the usual muttering of the Anti-16th crowd, or is there something new?

I have heard several members of Congress on the radio in the past few days saying that they have more support for a national sales tax that would replace the income tax. The savings from all but doing away with the IRS would be immense. I like the idea. Of course a 15% increase in sales tax might cause some discomfort, but everyone would be paying the same amount based on how much they buy.

Populism, little more then that.

No government will ever cut up a major source of revenue. It will never be repealed because it would probably mean that everyone in government will have to be paid less, including the legitslators.

The problem with that is why should I as a forgiener have to pay tax to your government if I visit the USA its not going to even slightly benifit me.

The problem with that is why should I as a forgiener have to pay tax to your government if I visit the USA its not going to even slightly benifit me.

Americans pay tax in foreign lands, too. the VAT.

FLAT TAX!!!! FLAT TAX!!!!

I say repeal it as well. It is no longer necessary. There are more efficient means of collecting taxes and an Income tax just takes our money away from us and a good precentage of it too.

As for taxes, they are to high. They need to come down more across all brackets.

The problem with that is why should I as a forgiener have to pay tax to your government if I visit the USA its not going to even slightly benifit me.

Thats a good one....every time you buy something here you already do. ;) As do Americans when they visit other countries.

Another one is Social Security. I will NEVER get the money back from that fiasco. Do away with that one as well and let us keep the money we work for. ;)

Thats a good one....every time you buy something here you already do. ;) As do Americans when they visit other countries.

Agreed Biff! Oh did you forget about your thread regarding the 527s?

The problem with that is why should I as a forgiener have to pay tax to your government if I visit the USA its not going to even slightly benifit me.
Will you travel on our roads? Drink from our water supplies? Visit our public museums and historic sites? I don't think that particular argument is valid.

Agreed Biff! Oh did you forget about your thread regarding the 527s?

No. I did not. ;)

The dificulty with selling this politically is the burden-shift it places on the poor.

If you make under a certain income you pay no (or nearly no) taxes. Sales taxes are indiscriminate.

The people it helps the most are the wealthy (i.e. people who spend less than they earn). In that respect it becomes a huge tax break for those who need it the least.

The dificulty with selling this politically is the burden-shift it places on the poor.

If you make under a certain income you pay no (or nearly no) taxes. Sales taxes are indiscriminate.

The people it helps the most are the wealthy (i.e. people who spend less than they earn). In that respect it becomes a huge tax break for those who need it the least.

Really? How so? There would be exemptions such as food/medicine/clothing so where would the advantage come from?

Really? How so? There would be exemptions such as food/medicine/clothing so where would the advantage come from?


How so? Well let's see: if you set the tax rate to be completely revenue-neutral with current Income Tax receipts, and if items are taxed that people who currently live in poverty (i.e. in a no-pay income tax bracket) need to buy (gas, household items), then the poor people are paying MORE in taxes then they were.

Now - If the poor people are paying more..... who do you think are paying less?

I WILL grant you that exempting food, clothing, etc helps limit this - but it does not completely eliminate the shift.

I dont think we should ever just repeal anything, without knowing how to handle every situation that the effect of that cause will 'cause'. The problem with ending any tax all of a sudden that goes into a general fund or budget is that it will effect everything in that budget. We would have to restructure and divert funds back into the defense budget along with other national security reciepients (that means raising taxes somewhere else or cutting programs that most Americans may want) . If there was a way to not effect our national security funding and or any other essential department, then I would say lets vote on it right now. I just see to many problems that would need way to many complex answers to just throw something off of the table. Now if you slowly take it down to a more desired % or none at all, it may be sustainable.

Other issue:

Become rich. Move offshore for most of the year. Spend as little as possible IN the US even though your income is still deriving from within the borders, and pay almost no taxes.


Who do you think the burden will fall to?

How so? Well let's see: if you set the tax rate to be completely revenue-neutral with current Income Tax receipts, and if items are taxed that people who currently live in poverty (i.e. in a no-pay income tax bracket) need to buy (gas, household items), then the poor people are paying MORE in taxes then they were.

Now - If the poor people are paying more..... who do you think are paying less?

I WILL grant you that exempting food, clothing, etc helps limit this - but it does not completely eliminate the shift.

Everyone should pay SOME taxes. Even the poor. As for the "poor." Even those who are "poor" here still have much more than many in other countries...so maybe that term is not really appropriate.

The poor here still have a TV with cable, most still have cars, and most eat better than people in other countries. Plus they always seem to have money for cigarettes and beer. Thats the ugly truth about the "poor" in the US.

Everyone should pay SOME taxes. Even the poor. As for the "poor." Even those who are "poor" here still have much more than many in other countries...so maybe that term is not really appropriate.

The poor here still have a TV with cable, most still have cars, and most eat better than people in other countries. Plus they always seem to have money for cigarettes and beer. Thats the ugly truth about the "poor" in the US.


Oh. So the poor aren't poor enough.... and you want to change that?


Well, I suppose that that is enough of a reason to tax 'em and relieve some of the burden on the poor oppressed rich folks....

Other issue:

Become rich. Move offshore for most of the year. Spend as little as possible IN the US even though your income is still deriving from within the borders, and pay almost no taxes.


Who do you think the burden will fall to?

How do the snowbirds from Canada that flock here in the winter do it? Do they not pay taxes in Canada when they are here? They do pay property and sales taxes here while they are here, but how does canada handle that? There are many thousands of them too....

Oh. So the poor aren't poor enough.... and you want to change that?


Well, I suppose that that is enough of a reason to tax 'em and relieve some of the burden on the poor oppressed rich folks....

No, but the definition of "poor" in some countries does not quite mean the same thing as it does here now does it?

For the record.....

I "could" be classified as poor based on my annual income. However, my home is paid for and I have very little in the way of expenses. I live much better than many who make far more than I do, yet I live WELL within my means. THATS the difference.

So going by income level....I am "poor" yet I am far better off than the majority of Americans.

How do the snowbirds from Canada that flock here in the winter do it? Do they not pay taxes in Canada when they are here? They do pay property and sales taxes here while they are here, but how does canada handle that? There are many thousands of them too....

They still owe their income taxes - which your system eliminates - and their property taxes for their places up here . Yes we lose some sales taxes, but they are still taxed as citizens.

The fact that they can afford to also pay property taxes on a second property to your local government is irrelevant from the point of view of our revenue stream.

Your system would reward them with complete tax freedom for leaving.

They still owe their income taxes - which your system eliminates - and their property taxes for their places up here . Yes we lose some sales taxes, but they are still taxed as citizens.

The fact that they can afford to also pay property taxes on a second property to your local government is irrelevant from the point of view of our revenue stream.

Your system would reward them with complete tax freedom for leaving.

Not totally accurate Zeppistan. We're taxed on Cars, TVs, Radios, CDs, DVDs, Tapes, Video Tapes, Computers, Copy Machines, Shredders, Property, ETC.

For the record.....

I "could" be classified as poor based on my annual income. However, my home is paid for and I have very little in the way of expenses. I live much better than many who make far more than I do, yet I live WELL within my means. THATS the difference.

So going by income level....I am "poor" yet I am far better off than the majority of Americans.

That is true of many seniors as well. However the fact that your situation is that way is not the same as many poor people. If you never got the chance to buy that house - you never get the chance to pay it off.

Americans pay tax in foreign lands, too. the VAT.

FLAT TAX!!!! FLAT TAX!!!!
Vistors to The European Union can claim their VAT back if they reside outside the EU.
It's a case of no taxation without representation. Now where have I heard that before?

There should still be a capital gains tax, inheritence tex, etc.

Not totally accurate Zeppistan. We're taxed on Cars, TVs, Radios, CDs, DVDs, Tapes, Video Tapes, Computers, Copy Machines, Shredders, Property, ETC.


Errr..... trying to see where you are going with this in relation to the discussion Formal... how does that relate in context to a Canadian's domestic taxes while wintering in Florida?

There should still be a capital gains tax, inheritence tex, etc.

This I disagree with. A capital Gains tax is double taxation which is illegal! The reason its double taxation is that not only is what you make in the stock market taxed, but you still have to account for it on your tax information thus it gets taxed again.

And why should I get taxed that a relative left for me?

inheritence tex Do you mean George Bush junior?

"Everyone should pay SOME taxes. Even the poor. As for the "poor." Even those who are "poor" here still have much more than many in other countries...so maybe that term is not really appropriate.
The poor here still have a TV with cable, most still have cars, and most eat better than people in other countries. Plus they always seem to have money for cigarettes and beer. Thats the ugly truth about the "poor" in the US."

So true!, we take so much for granted. I have visited many foriegn countries and even someone in a civilized country would be shocked at what our poor are still able to do.

I mean look at me, I live on $985 month, pay for full time college, have the ability through having roomates (or wife) to have a computer and a internet connection. I do not starve, I still have a roof over my head. I dont smoke cigerettes or drink alcohol (maybe once every few months i'll have a beer or two) What more can a person ask for? That is why when someone says we are blessed, I truly take it to heart.

All of my hobbies as a 'poor' person are free (except now I have to pay to hike through some forests), I grow my own food for the most part. Our poor and rich should feel thankful for what this country has allowed us to do in our lives (I say this with no political meaning what so ever).

Vistors to The European Union can claim their VAT back if they reside outside the EU.
It's a case of no taxation without representation. Now where have I heard that before?

Visiters to Canada can likewise reclaim the GST taxes spent on many things during a visit here. Not items made for consumption up here though (Gas, meals etc.)

They still owe their income taxes - which your system eliminates - and their property taxes for their places up here . Yes we lose some sales taxes, but they are still taxed as citizens.

The fact that they can afford to also pay property taxes on a second property to your local government is irrelevant from the point of view of our revenue stream.

Your system would reward them with complete tax freedom for leaving.

Actually...it is not "my" system and it is still being hashed out. The tax code here is such a mess and so complicated that it HAS to be changed.

I understand how liberal Canadians feel about their socialised system, but we do not have a history of that here unless you could the failed welfare system that rewarded people for not having a job. I am all for helping those who need it, but once on that bottle, it is hard to get people off.

Look at France, their economy is a mess because of their socialised programs. they actually share jobs because of it. it is illegal to work more than 36 hours a week there. They have stifled individual success in favor of a "common good."

Errr..... trying to see where you are going with this in relation to the discussion Formal... how does that relate in context to a Canadian's domestic taxes while wintering in Florida?

Your system would reward them with complete tax freedom for leaving.

They are not completely free of taxes is what I'm saying. They still have to pay local, state and Federal Taxes if they reside here in the USA otherwise, the feds will be on them.

If you eliminate the income tax and go with sales tax instead, every luxery item will get taxed. Thus they still will not be tax free.

My family's combined income between my dads salary any my moms salary is about $125,000 a year, yet I dont know how I will pay for college. This is because we live in Massachusetts, and the fact they are divorced. My dads getting a new job though, and he is getting a "sizeable raise" which he told me, will go largely towards my, and my brothers college fund.

In my ever so humble opinion, it's a pretty simple solution.

On April 16th, two things should happen, right after the last income tax is filed

1) IRS Disbanded.

2) Flat Sales Tax of 10% on all goods and services. A new agency would be set up, a a fraction of the size and cost of the IRS, to simply process and funnel the sales tax money to the gov't coffers. Anyone under the poverty level would get a card exempting them from said tax.

High taxes are cool. This is why Sweden rocks. I really enjoy paying my taxes as I know I am helping those who are less fortunate than me.

High taxes are cool. This is why Sweden rocks. I really enjoy paying my taxes as I know I am helping those who are less fortunate than me.

That is an admirable, if unfortunately rare, perspective.

Moving away from the present tax system will never happen. It would put too many 2nd rate Lawyers and Accountants out of work ;)

That is true of many seniors as well. However the fact that your situation is that way is not the same as many poor people. If you never got the chance to buy that house - you never get the chance to pay it off.

That comes down to credit worthiness and THAT results in personal choices. If you pay your bills on time you will NEVER have a problem buying anything.

That someone abuses and loses their credit worthiness is their fault and noone elses. You see, i am a FIRM believer in personal responsibility.

That I have a FLAWLESS credit report and rating is due to my taking responsibility for my actions.

I make very little money....yet I can and have bought a new car in 15 minutes. I have had salesmen fall all over themselves to assist me. Just last night I called my credit card company and enquired about the interest rate on my credit card. 4.99% is a tad bit high I thought. So to keep me as a customer....they lowered it to 0% for a year.

Your system would reward them with complete tax freedom for leaving.

They are not completely free of taxes is what I'm saying. They still have to pay local, state and Federal Taxes if they reside here in the USA otherwise, the feds will be on them.

If you eliminate the income tax and go with sales tax instead, every luxery item will get taxed. Thus they still will not be tax free.

Umm - the point being that if you eliminate the income tax in favour of a sales tax, and they move offshore while keeping their income-stream domestic to the US - what taxes will they pay? They won't be paying income taxes (because they are eliminated) and they will be buying their luxury items elsewhere.

Okay guys though this is unpopular in the US here is my view. Taxes and specificly income taxes are the price you pay for civilization. Police, firefighters, ambulance drivers, schools, the military, and government workers in general do not work for free. Bush has made it sound so simple with his tax cuts, "its your money." But is it really "our" money?
Consider this, without the federal governments funding of the treasury and mints would money exist? Would the paper notes you have in your wallet have any meaning without the government to give them worth? How do we pay for social programs without these taxes?
Originally the United States used high tariffs to pay for these programs before income tax. The result of these tariffs culminated in part of the great depression. Trade is discouraged by tariffs making GNP of a country slump. John Kerry will invariably use these to try and keep jobs in America and pay for additional social programs. But Americans will pay more than they would on income taxes.

Okay guys though this is unpopular in the US here is my view. Taxes and specificly income taxes are the price you pay for civilization. Police, firefighters, ambulance drivers, schools, the military, and government workers in general do not work for free. Bush has made it sound so simple with his tax cuts, "its your money." But is it really "our" money?
Consider this, without the federal governments funding of the treasury and mints would money exist? Would the paper notes you have in your wallet have any meaning without the government to give them worth? How do we pay for social programs without these taxes?
Originally the United States used high tariffs to pay for these programs before income tax. The result of these tariffs culminated in part of the great depression. Trade is discouraged by tariffs making GNP of a country slump. John Kerry will invariably use these to try and keep jobs in America and pay for additional social programs. But Americans will pay more than they would on income taxes.

Exactly!! However, it is the waste in the system that is the real culprit. Kerry will be a disaster for the US. His healthcare program alone, if passed, will cost more than his increased taxes on the "rich" will ever bring in....only 1/3 as much as is needed.

Actually...it is not "my" system and it is still being hashed out. The tax code here is such a mess and so complicated that it HAS to be changed.

I understand how liberal Canadians feel about their socialised system, but we do not have a history of that here unless you could the failed welfare system that rewarded people for not having a job. I am all for helping those who need it, but once on that bottle, it is hard to get people off.

Look at France, their economy is a mess because of their socialised programs. they actually share jobs because of it. it is illegal to work more than 36 hours a week there. They have stifled individual success in favor of a "common good."

You always have to bring up that term "socialized Canada" to every discussion don't you?

As if we have no concept of the US at all, or that we are that much diferent. In most cases - it is simply a matter of degree. You have partial socuialization of health care through Medicare/Medicaid - we have a complete system. Other than that - there are few diferences at all.

That being said - I have heard enough horror stories about the IRS to understand that it needs an overhaul. Your tax codes are stupidly complex, and the regulations around them put all of the burden on the taxpayer. Hell, if you ask the IRS for the answer to a question and they give you the wrong advice - they still get to penalize you as if you did it deliberately. That is assinine!

I just don't think that a complete replacement with a sales tax is the best way to go about it. You still have not answered how the richest people would not be able to completely avoid paying any taxes just by moving their homes to Nassau.....leaving the burden entirely on the working people.

Up here, the tax form for most Canadians involves filling in about five boxes on a two page form. If you have investment income or other more complicated details - maybe filling in about 20 boxes on six pags. It is clear, it is simple, and our taxe rates aren't that much more than yours for most people - despite what you keep hearing.

Exactly!! However, it is the waste in the system that is the real culprit. Kerry will be a disaster for the US. His healthcare program alone, if passed, will cost more than his increased taxes on the "rich" will ever bring in....only 1/3 as much as is needed.

http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20040429-041320-5974r.htm

On what Kerry's plans will do to the Budget Deficit!

Exactly!! However, it is the waste in the system that is the real culprit. Kerry will be a disaster for the US. His healthcare program alone, if passed, will cost more than his increased taxes on the "rich" will ever bring in....only 1/3 as much as is needed.

JESUS! Can't we get through one thread....just one...without it turning into Bush v. Kerry? I mean, I'm all about political debate. I believe it's important...but I've even seen Bush v. Kerry in threads about the Olympics!

Can we pretty, pretty please just stick to the issue?

Sure I see where reform in the code may be necessary. However any reform no matter how simplified the new system will be may lead to a disaster in the end. The system you are for leads to a basic flat tax.
I am opposed to this because most revenue (despite wat democrats would like you to believe) is taken from the top 1-2%. The top 1% pays for about a quarter of the national taxes.
If you make the tax flat then you will have enormous shortages across the board. Because many people such as Gates just sit on their wealth and do not flagrantly buy things with it.
It will also raise the cost of items extraordinarily which I doubt Americans will like. Will this also tax food? Water? Any taxation on gasoline has been fought fiercely in this country. Remember when Jimmy Carter tried to tax gasoline by 15 measly cents... people were near rioting.

Exactly!! However, it is the waste in the system that is the real culprit. Kerry will be a disaster for the US. His healthcare program alone, if passed, will cost more than his increased taxes on the "rich" will ever bring in....only 1/3 as much as is needed.
Better then spending it on war! he'll probably cut spending in another area or he could just raise tax more.

JESUS! Can't we get through one thread....just one...without it turning into Bush v. Kerry? I mean, I'm all about political debate. I believe it's important...but I've even seen Bush v. Kerry in threads about the Olympics!

Can we pretty, pretty please just stick to the issue?

My bad I brought it in. Though I criticize both candidates thinking on the issue. I do not believe its off topic considering Kerry will probably bring in tariffs and Bush will keep making tax cuts. Remember taxation always plays big in the states.

You always have to bring up that term "socialized Canada" to every discussion don't you?

As if we have no concept of the US at all, or that we are that much diferent. In most cases - it is simply a matter of degree. You have partial socuialization of health care through Medicare/Medicaid - we have a complete system. Other than that - there are few diferences at all.

That being said - I have heard enough horror stories about the IRS to understand that it needs an overhaul. Your tax codes are stupidly complex, and the regulations around them put all of the burden on the taxpayer. Hell, if you ask the IRS for the answer to a question and they give you the wrong advice - they still get to penalize you as if you did it deliberately. That is assinine!

I just don't think that a complete replacement with a sales tax is the best way to go about it. You still have not answered how the richest people would not be able to completely avoid paying any taxes just by moving their homes to Nassau.....leaving the burden entirely on the working people.

Up here, the tax form for most Canadians involves filling in about five boxes on a two page form. If you have investment income or other more complicated details - maybe filling in about 20 boxes on six pags. It is clear, it is simple, and our taxe rates aren't that much more than yours for most people - despite what you keep hearing.

I agree, the IRS is out of control. I am completely surprised that the IRS building has not been torched yet. People HATE the IRS with a passion and want it done away with. Now, how would we keep rich people from paying taxes? I do not know, nor have I ever claimed to know. However, in the discussions that I have heard, tax rebates for the poor have been mentioned.

If the system is not changed at all....companies will still move out of the US to avoid paying taxes, which is a misnomer, because they don't pay taxes anyway, they pass them on to their customers and just hand that money over to the government. The poor will still pay the lowest amount of taxes. In 2000, my last full year in the military, after my deductions and refund, I paid $414 in Federal income taxes yet I paid 4 times that much to Social Security. Go figure.

Something has to change.....

My bad I brought it in. Though I criticize both candidates thinking on the issue. I do not believe its off topic considering Kerry will probably bring in tariffs and Bush will keep making tax cuts. Remember taxation always plays big in the states.

True, but this is a discussion on the merit of the tax system itself, not the implementer of said system.

Sorry for the frustration...please see my new thread.

Better then spending it on war! he'll probably cut spending in another area or he could just raise tax more.

He voted to go to war. Him and many other democrats approved the war. There is no brightline between Kerry and Bush on the issue. Kerry has said in the last few weeks about how he would vote the same way. Kerry will not take us out of Iraq like Nader would so he is still paying for the war.
Great cut spending in another area? Like education? Or maybe lets cut funding for CIA which Kerry proposed to do in 1994 by 6 Billion dollars. This was the largest proposition in cutting intelligence expenditures in decades and he claims to be all about "making the US safer." Excuse me while I laugh my ass off.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

Wait.....I know, I'll just go to another post. I'm not being sarcastic.

Debate Away...

I don´t think it is possible to get rid of taxes alltogether, also not of the income tax. The state has certain obligations it has to fulfill: internal and external security, legal system and infrastructure, an education system and a minimum of social security belong to them in my view.

Another question is: How far should this things go: How much social security do you want, how much of a public education system you want, e.g.
That is a matter of discussion every country has to do.
And if it has done that it has to discuss how to finance it.
Therefore taxes are needed: either more or less.
I favour indirect taxation over direct taxation.
A system with a flat tax is interestin. Slovakia for example has a flat tax of 19% (income tax, cooperate tax, VAT).
An interesting system in my view.
I´m all in favour of cutting direct taxes in my country. I would be ready to pay more indirect taxes (like the VAT) in return though.

My bad someone make a pro-Bush statement so I can go back to criticizing him. I just can't stand to see people make these ideological avatars out of Bush and Kerry. Bush is not Reagan, Kerry is not Clinton. Both are in the pockets of corporations and both of them make piss poor decisions. The object of democracy is not to agree with the person you vote for it is to come to terms with a reasonable candidate.

I don´t think it is possible to get rid of taxes alltogether, also not of the income tax. The state has certain obligations it has to fulfill: internal and external security, legal system and infrastructure, an education system and a minimum of social security belong to them in my view.

Another question is: How far should this things go: How much social security do you want, how much of a public education system you want, e.g.
That is a matter of discussion every country has to do.
And if it has done that it has to discuss how to finance it.
Therefore taxes are needed: either more or less.
I favour indirect taxation over direct taxation.
A system with a flat tax is interestin. Slovakia for example has a flat tax of 19% (income tax, cooperate tax, VAT).
An interesting system in my view.
I´m all in favour of cutting direct taxes in my country. I would be ready to pay more indirect taxes (like the VAT) in return though.

Thats what they are talking about doing....a system of indirect taxes and a great reduction or elimination of income taxes. Too many exemptions and deductions....

I agree, the IRS is out of control. I am completely surprised that the IRS building has not been torched yet. People HATE the IRS with a passion and want it done away with. Now, how would we keep rich people from paying taxes? I do not know, nor have I ever claimed to know. However, in the discussions that I have heard, tax rebates for the poor have been mentioned.

If the system is not changed at all....companies will still move out of the US to avoid paying taxes, which is a misnomer, because they don't pay taxes anyway, they pass them on to their customers and just hand that money over to the government. The poor will still pay the lowest amount of taxes. In 2000, my last full year in the military, after my deductions and refund, I paid $414 in Federal income taxes yet I paid 4 times that much to Social Security. Go figure.

Something has to change.....

Oh, not disagreeing that something has to change.

Up here we use both as revenue streams to provide balance. We have the income taxes as well as the sales tax. And we do have exempt items (food, children's clothing and the like), and there are sales tax rebates for the poor. This provides a measure of balance to ensure that complete avoidance of taxes by the rich is more dificult. Over the past ten years our standard Federal Tax forms have been simplified from an eight page standard form to four. There are additional pages that may be needed for special circumstances, but most people do not use them often.

But it is, as mentioned, only one part of the puzzle. Streamlining taxes makes the revenue collection more efficient, but there also needs to be associated fiscal controls. While I like aspects of the more direct representational nature of Congress, it also has become a wasteful venue for vote-buying through pork. We don't have that problem, but we have the downside of the House always voting along party lines limiting the independance of representatives.

No system is perfect.

But the IRS is a hideous example of bureaucracy at it's worst.

Oh, not disagreeing that something has to change.

Up here we use both as revenue streams to provide balance. We have the income taxes as well as the sales tax. And we do have exempt items (food, children's clothing and the like), and there are sales tax rebates for the poor. This provides a measure of balance to ensure that complete avoidance of taxes by the rich is more dificult. Over the past ten years our standard Federal Tax forms have been simplified from an eight page standard form to four. There are additional pages that may be needed for special circumstances, but most people do not use them often.

But it is, as mentioned, only one part of the puzzle. Streamlining taxes makes the revenue collection more efficient, but there also needs to be associated fiscal controls. While I like aspects of the more direct representational nature of Congress, it also has become a wasteful venue for vote-buying through pork. We don't have that problem, but we have the downside of the House always voting along party lines limiting the independance of representatives.

No system is perfect.

But the IRS is a hideous example of bureaucracy at it's worst.


Then after the IRS is through with you, the states have a go at you. Fortunately here in Florida we do not pay sales tax on food/medicine nor do we pay state income taxes so we really cannot complain about anything other than federal taxes. Some states REALLY tax their citizens to death. Mass. being one, if not the, highest tax state in the country. Wonder why people are looking at that now?

Then after the IRS is through with you, the states have a go at you. Fortunately here in Florida we do not pay sales tax on food/medicine nor do we pay state income taxes so we really cannot complain about anything other than federal taxes. Some states REALLY tax their citizens to death. Mass. being one, if not the, highest tax state in the country. Wonder why people are looking at that now?

Hmm - well if you are making a swipe at a certain candidate with that remark I would assume in the first place that most people understand that their junior senator does not set state tax policies....

But yes - Mass IS the highest taxed state in the union and their median taxes when combined with the Fed rates actually exceed the median combined Federal/provincial rates in some Canadian provinces.... WITHOUT the free health care or subsidized higher education to show for it. I'd be ticked if I lived there too!

The reason I hate incmoe tax is it punishs you for being sucessful. I support a national sales tax as long as its not on food, clothing, and utilites.

Income tax does not punish you for being successful. You might pay more than someone with less but the proportion will always be the same. For instance Bill gates may pay in the highest bracket hundreds of thousands of dollars. But to him that is very equal to a single mother paying 2-3 thousand.

The problem with that is why should I as a forgiener have to pay tax to your government if I visit the USA its not going to even slightly benifit me.

The same reason you have to do it if you visit Australia.

Make all Political Offices Purely Volunteer!

Make the Government take over as Medical Insurance Company by Offering all Uninsured Workers Free, Comprehensive Medical, Dental, and Optical in exchange for their Tax Return for the rest of the year! Now until the government develops the infrastructure for socialized medicine, simply tell employers they can't fire an employee for excessive sick days. Also, until we have socialized medicine, make it illegal to have unpaid medical bills to be counted against a person's credit rating. In addition, in accordance with the concept of no taxation without representation, why should the uninsured pay a medicare tax?

Revamp the welfare system and put the corrupt employment agencies out of business simply by providing government run day labor centers where all American Citizens are guaranteed a days wages whether the government can find work for them or not.

Keep the cost of rent down, and the freeways uncluttered by building more high rise subsidized housing in the inner cities and requiring new neighborhoods to also have affordable housing and a special car owners tax to subsidize public transportation in any new neighborhoods. And if landlords fail to provide affordable housing, simply refuse to enforce graffitti ordinances until they come into compliance!

On the Other Hand

Allow Microbusinesses such as Pedicabs to flourish unregulated by safety pansies and Taxi Lobbyists. Stop putting limits on peddlers licenses just because you're afraid it makes your city look Third World. Hey, as long as they're not polluting, who really cares.

Hmm - well if you are making a swipe at a certain candidate with that remark I would assume in the first place that most people understand that their junior senator does not set state tax policies....

But yes - Mass IS the highest taxed state in the union and their median taxes when combined with the Fed rates actually exceed the median combined Federal/provincial rates in some Canadian provinces.... WITHOUT the free health care or subsidized higher education to show for it. I'd be ticked if I lived there too!

While it is true that Senators don't set state policies.....they do have a tremendous amount of influence on them. Since Mass. is a STRONG Democrat state and Kennedy has not killed enough people to warrant losing an election yet, Mass. can be a microcosm of what the US would be like if the Democrats were hold sway long enough. I certainly hope THAT does not happen!

Make all Political Offices Purely Volunteer!

This I TOTALLY agree with!!! Then we won't have to worry about dinosaurs like Byrd and Kennedy dying at their desks and fossils like Strom Thurmond will be put out to pasture LONG before they become fragile "depends" wearing alzheimers suffering geriactrics.

Why is everyone saying until socialised medicine? I doubt that will be around in any form in America for a long time. I mean even Kerry's plan on socialised health care is barely scratching the surface of what most intellectuals say a American Health Care service would look like.

Look at France, their economy is a mess because of their socialised programs. they actually share jobs because of it. it is illegal to work more than 36 hours a week there. They have stifled individual success in favor of a "common good."
The 35-hour week is a voluntary standard. The only people who really do it are the people who work for the government.

I don't know about France's economy being a mess, but it's not as fast as the US. This is not due to socialised programs exclusively. Remember that the population of America is always growing, as opposed to France's static population numbers.

Also on France, their health care system is brilliant. Those politticians just have to keep putting money into it; it runs itself!

I think it's work sacrificing a few percentage points on your growth rate or GDP if you have a great health system and the poor aren't out on the streets.

Make all Political Offices Purely Volunteer!

Bad idea. This is the best way to go about creating a plutocracy (even worse than it already is).

Well I certaintly dont think congressman and senators should be able to give themselves a raise every year. Its not like any of them are in any need of money.

There is serious talk now of repealing the 16th amendment. Should we?

Hell yeah! That's long overdue!

Well, I think we've become too dependant on the income tax to simply repeal it easily.

But if we can do it, hey, all for it!

I have heard several members of Congress on the radio in the past few days saying that they have more support for a national sales tax that would replace the income tax. The savings from all but doing away with the IRS would be immense. I like the idea. Of course a 15% increase in sales tax might cause some discomfort, but everyone would be paying the same amount based on how much they buy.
Ahhhhh another cash grab by the overly wealthy. How much is too much? It would increase taxes for the lowest people on the totem pole, which will lead to more poverty, more crime, less health care, less money for education, etc.

For want of a better word, it is called GREED!!!

While we're at it, let's get rid of all taxes. Government is evil, no? So, if less government is good, then no government is even better.

I'd love to watch the middle class writhe in horror in an anarchic America.