NationStates Jolt Archive

I've been troubled by a rumour I've heard about Mormons (Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints). I know that they are very involved in genealogy, but I heard that they are known to track down the burial sites of their non-Mormon ancestors, and perform some sort of posthumous baptism.

Is this fact or fiction?

It's fact ... and it really pisses off Jews and Pagans ... though I find the whole argument useless and stupid. All LDS folks should be shot on sight.

There are some members of the LDS church who frequent the boards, so you'll get a better answer than this one eventually, but the quick answer is "sort of." Sorry I can't be more specific than that.

Heh, remember how Raysia used to try and argue for the Mormons on this?

Well, I find it troubling, certainly. I can see how it makes little difference to a number of people, but as I wasn't raised Christian, the thought of 'afterlife, interrupted' by judgement at the hands of someone else's version of God scares the dickens out of me...sorry, Mormons. When my parents passed away, they were cremated as per their wishes, their ashes interred in moving waters. Now I'm glad for having done so. I probably will request the same for me when my time approaches.

Jeez, this thread is a bit of a downer. I need to liven myself up a bit!

The way I figure it, the only way it matters is if the LDS church is the only group that's found the elusive "one true faith" that mankind has been searching after ever since we reached that state of development when we could start thinking about things greater than ourselves. If they're right, and one of your descendants pulls you into God's everlasting grace or whatever, then you can deal with the reality then. Otherwise, there's plenty of important stuff on earth that we have to deal with instead of worrying about future hypotheticals.

Well, I find it troubling, certainly. I can see how it makes little difference to a number of people, but as I wasn't raised Christian, the thought of 'afterlife, interrupted' by judgement at the hands of someone else's version of God scares the dickens out of me...sorry, Mormons. When my parents passed away, they were cremated as per their wishes, their ashes interred in moving waters. Now I'm glad for having done so. I probably will request the same for me when my time approaches.

Jeez, this thread is a bit of a downer. I need to liven myself up a bit!

That's a pretty cool way to end it. I dunno though, I'm thinking something more along the lines of what Carlin would suggest. You know, getting thrown off a helocopter, and wherever my body lands, it STAYS. Or being blown up, that sounds like fun too :p

I plan on having a giant microwave constructed while I'm on my death bed. Then, when I'm ready, my body is to popped like a hamster in front of all my suck relatives.

Seriously, though, what's the problem with this? Someone's dead, they're dead - if some religious people feel like they need to "save the soul" of an ancestor, who's it harming?

I plan on having a giant microwave constructed while I'm on my death bed. Then, when I'm ready, my body is to popped like a hamster in front of all my suck relatives.

Seriously, though, what's the problem with this? Someone's dead, they're dead - if some religious people feel like they need to "save the soul" of an ancestor, who's it harming?

Because most faiths would tell you it's a sin to be baptised into another. Thus posthumous baptism is extremely rude.

But anyway, don't mormans think that there are limited places in the afterlife, and whoever converts the most people gets in? thus baptising their ancestors does their ancestors no good (but may increase their own chances of getting into heaven... not sure on this)

If assuming you have been baptised you end up in Heaven, Nirvana, or whichever state of grace you subscribe to.
Does it therefore follow that if you arn't baptised you end up in Hell, Hadies or some other foul environment getting your ass singed.
And If you get baptised posthumus isnt that a bit like using a get out of hell free card, And how do you account for the singed ass and lingering smell of brimstone when you arrive at the gates.

If assuming you have been baptised you end up in Heaven, Nirvana, or whichever state of grace you subscribe to.
Does it therefore follow that if you arn't baptised you end up in Hell, Hadies or some other foul environment getting your ass singed.
And If you get baptised posthumus isnt that a bit like using a get out of hell free card, And how do you account for the singed ass and lingering smell of brimstone when you arrive at the gates.

It varies from faith to faith, but often yes you do end up in hell.

Catholiscism would place you in purgatory (the neutral afterlife - no fire... but nothing else either), so no singed arse when you get out (and it's considered normal to go to purgatory for a while before heaven - to work of your sins)

Mormans I have no idea.

Because most faiths would tell you it's a sin to be baptised into another. Thus posthumous baptism is extremely rude.

But anyway, don't mormans think that there are limited places in the afterlife, and whoever converts the most people gets in? thus baptising their ancestors does their ancestors no good (but may increase their own chances of getting into heaven... not sure on this)
I think it's the Jehovah's Witnesses.

I also agree that it is extremely rude and in bad taste to baptise posthumously.

I also agree that it is extremely rude and in bad taste to baptise posthumously.

Agreed - and I have a question about Christianity in general - the Bible says that God grants people free will to do both good and evil. However, there are some Christian branches that subscribe to that people are predestined for Heaven or Hell. How can somebody be predestined if they have free will?

From what I understand, the concept of what destiny is gets tricky when human beings do have free will, but God is omnipotent, omniscient and omni-everything else. So, we're free to make our own choices, but God already knows if we're going to screw things up or not. Something about our "every hair is numbered," meaning God already knows what we're going to do, what's going to happen to us, what we want to do, etc.

So, interesting little bit of trivia, most Christians who believe that we are individually destined for heaven or hell believe that all sins will be forgiven on judgement day. => We're all getting in, eventually.

Fascinating religions...

I've been troubled by a rumour I've heard about Mormons (Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints). I know that they are very involved in genealogy, but I heard that they are known to track down the burial sites of their non-Mormon ancestors, and perform some sort of posthumous baptism.

Is this fact or fiction?
ITs a fact alright. I laughed my ass of when I heard it. Mormons do it to deceased Jews who died in the Holocaust. They have been doing it for years. Numerous times the Jewish Religion has asked them to stop, and they continue.

I will say this one time, and one time only... mainly because I have argued this to death:

There is no gravedigging, there is no excavation, we don't go anywhere near a cemetary even. Baptisms for the dead are done by proxy in the name of someone who has died unbaptized. We do not baptize the deceased's physical body, we simply baptize other members of the church vicariously in the name of someone who died.

What you call Posthumous Baptisms, we term either Baptisms for the Dead, or Proxy baptisms... by both of our terms, you can easily derive that these are not baptisms OF the dead, they are baptisms FOR the dead. They are PROXY baptisms, meaning Someone sits in in place of someone who is far away (in this case, in the spirit world.)

It's not gross, it's not cultish... it's a little weird maybe, and definately somewhat unorthodox,

but the only thing I can see anyone arguing about is that it might be rude to offer a baptism to someone who does not want it... which is kind hard to tell, as they are, well, dead... and the only people that can speak for them are their living kin... but really, who are they to decide for their dead family? It's the deceased's choice whether or not to accept the baptism... not Mine, not yours, not the prophets, heck, not even God. Them. It's called free agency. Power to choose. We are simply offering them a gift. They can turn it away and forget about it like a birthday party invitation if they want to... but it is THEIR choice, no one else's.

OK, that's it... I think I summed up every argumentative point about it. If you have any serious questions about this, you may Telegram me.

Peace ;)

Mormon baptism is based on the washing of Morma by Brigham Young..

It's explained in better detail on this website:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/morma/

Mormon baptism is based on the washing of Morma by Brigham Young..

It's explained in better detail on this website:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/morma/
....

you're kidding me.... right?

Raysia is correct. There is no disinternment of the body or anything like that. A live person is simply used as a proxy, usually for someone who expressed their desire prior to dying but didn't manage to get around to it. I've had several friends who acted as such a proxy.

In all honesty, it isn't that much different from the Catholic tradition of praying for the soul of an excommunicate to speed their path through purgatory. The only real difference between the two is that the Mormon method gets the soul of the dead to Heaven faster, and they use water. Aside from that, not all that goofy.

The thing that gets me is that while I'm currently agnostic, and thus either condemned to the deepest darkest pits of hell or at least to float around purgatory for an alloted time, I might well convert to the One True Faith (whichever that is) before my death and find myself in a Heaven of some sort or other.

So there I am, sitting at the feet of Allah, Budda, Aslan, YAHWEH, Bob, Zeus or The Great Prophet Zarquon and suddenly a descendant of mine (or complete stranger) babtises me post-mortem-by-proxy and I find myself flung into the spiritual equivelent of solitary confinement... (Was going to say 'the sin-bin', but the irony hit me when I realised the derivation... :)

Anyway, as I'm agnostic I'm not even sure I'm going anywhere at the end of it all (save as worm-fodder or a localised emission of combustion products) so no worries for the time-being... :)

The thing that gets me is that while I'm currently agnostic, and thus either condemned to the deepest darkest pits of hell or at least to float around purgatory for an alloted time, I might well convert to the One True Faith (whichever that is) before my death and find myself in a Heaven of some sort or other.

So there I am, sitting at the feet of Allah, Budda, Aslan, YAHWEH, Bob, Zeus or The Great Prophet Zarquon and suddenly a descendant of mine (or complete stranger) babtises me post-mortem-by-proxy and I find myself flung into the spiritual equivelent of solitary confinement... (Was going to say 'the sin-bin', but the irony hit me when I realised the derivation... :)

Anyway, as I'm agnostic I'm not even sure I'm going anywhere at the end of it all (save as worm-fodder or a localised emission of combustion products) so no worries for the time-being... :)*sigh* You need to actually read what i say :)

Mormon baptism is based on the washing of Morma by Brigham Young..

It's explained in better detail on this website:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/morma/

oh great now we have an anti-mormon nut to go along with our international zionist conspiracy nut

do you have a bet on how many people you can get to look at your lame live journal page??

I will say this one time, and one time only... mainly because I have argued this to death:

There is no gravedigging, there is no excavation, we don't go anywhere near a cemetary even. Baptisms for the dead are done by proxy in the name of someone who has died unbaptized. We do not baptize the deceased's physical body, we simply baptize other members of the church vicariously in the name of someone who died.

What you call Posthumous Baptisms, we term either Baptisms for the Dead, or Proxy baptisms... by both of our terms, you can easily derive that these are not baptisms OF the dead, they are baptisms FOR the dead. They are PROXY baptisms, meaning Someone sits in in place of someone who is far away (in this case, in the spirit world.)

It's not gross, it's not cultish... it's a little weird maybe, and definately somewhat unorthodox,

but the only thing I can see anyone arguing about is that it might be rude to offer a baptism to someone who does not want it... which is kind hard to tell, as they are, well, dead... and the only people that can speak for them are their living kin... but really, who are they to decide for their dead family? It's the deceased's choice whether or not to accept the baptism... not Mine, not yours, not the prophets, heck, not even God. Them. It's called free agency. Power to choose. We are simply offering them a gift. They can turn it away and forget about it like a birthday party invitation if they want to... but it is THEIR choice, no one else's.

OK, that's it... I think I summed up every argumentative point about it. If you have any serious questions about this, you may Telegram me.

Peace ;)


Can I do a heathen ritual in your name?

*sigh* You need to actually read what i say :)
a) Smileys included (and reciprocated I see)
b) More seriously, it's a gift to be taken or otherwise if it is a correct gift. If it's an incorrect gift then 'the one true religion' may treat it as a mandatory gift, not an optional one, with a fall from grace resulting. (Or it could be a completely unrecognised process in which nothing happens.)

But hey, currently I don't believe I'm going anywhere, so on the balance of probability I don't care and I just try to live my life in a good way 'because'.

I will say this one time, and one time only... mainly because I have argued this to death:

There is no gravedigging, there is no excavation, we don't go anywhere near a cemetary even. Baptisms for the dead are done by proxy in the name of someone who has died unbaptized. We do not baptize the deceased's physical body, we simply baptize other members of the church vicariously in the name of someone who died.

What you call Posthumous Baptisms, we term either Baptisms for the Dead, or Proxy baptisms... by both of our terms, you can easily derive that these are not baptisms OF the dead, they are baptisms FOR the dead. They are PROXY baptisms, meaning Someone sits in in place of someone who is far away (in this case, in the spirit world.)

It's not gross, it's not cultish... it's a little weird maybe, and definately somewhat unorthodox,

but the only thing I can see anyone arguing about is that it might be rude to offer a baptism to someone who does not want it... which is kind hard to tell, as they are, well, dead... and the only people that can speak for them are their living kin... but really, who are they to decide for their dead family? It's the deceased's choice whether or not to accept the baptism... not Mine, not yours, not the prophets, heck, not even God. Them. It's called free agency. Power to choose. We are simply offering them a gift. They can turn it away and forget about it like a birthday party invitation if they want to... but it is THEIR choice, no one else's.

OK, that's it... I think I summed up every argumentative point about it. If you have any serious questions about this, you may Telegram me.

Peace ;)

I happen to know that catholics do this sort of thing too, they have proxy baptisms for aborted persons (or non-persons or whatever. I don't want to discuss abortion).

I don't understand why this would trouble anyone. All the people involved are dead - why would they give a shit? If I just had a pagan ceremony for Raysian to cleanse him/her of his/her mormonic demons, so what? it isn't like raysian has any idea about it. (unless it worked).

b) More seriously, it's a gift to be taken or otherwise if it is a correct gift. If it's an incorrect gift then 'the one true religion' may treat it as a mandatory gift, not an optional one, with a fall from grace resulting. (Or it could be a completely unrecognised process in which nothing happens.)

But hey, currently I don't believe I'm going anywhere, so on the balance of probability I don't care and I just try to live my life in a good way 'because'.
Addendum: That (b) and onwards looks totally unreadable, even to me, here's another go.

If LDS is true then an LDS gift of post-mortem baptism is what you say, and optional, and can bring me, an non-LDS, into The Light, or whatever. (The same if it's a non-LDS heaven that takes LDS babtism as 'credit', regardless.)

If LDS is not true then the same gift could be interpreted by an LDS-is-bad religion as a Bad Thing (TM) and could cause my fall from grace if I had been previously been favourably judged by it.

If LDS is not true but the gift is also meaningless to whatever religion turns out to be my Judge then no worries, things won't get worse than they were.

And if there's nothing to the afterlife at all (my best bet, but I'm still open to apiphanies, if anyone has any going spare) or you get a good time if you were faithful to your own principles, regardless on whether you bet black and even, red and odd or even double-zero in the roulette wheel of spirituality then still no worries.

My interpretation, of course. Usual disclaimers apply.

I'm going to convert dead mormons to communism.

Uhh.

I'm going to have to do a bit of thinking on the exact ritual involved, but rest assured, they wont like it.

:D

I'm going to convert dead mormons to communism.

Uhh.

I'm going to have to do a bit of thinking on the exact ritual involved, but rest assured, they wont like it.

:D

about 400,000 of them won't give a monkey's cock because they're saved and living with god in the tent of eternal joyfulness or whatever. The rest will probably be really grateful because they're so pissed off that after a lifetime of devotion, jesus dissed them

Hi long time player, first time caller.

First I want to say that I am Mormon.

Now that that is out of the way, I have a few things to address. First, as Raysia said, these baptism ceremonies are done in behalf of others. Second the only way that they have any meaning is if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the one true religion. To assume that any god would accept the religious ceremonies of any group that doesn't worship him/her/it is illogical at best and foolish at worst. As a Mormon, I can tell you that we belive that God doesn't recognize the ceremonies or rituals of churches that don't worship him. For example, our God wouldn't recognize Pagan rituals of any kind as being valid, so any such rituals would have no impact on us as Christians. Inversely, any Pagan god would be unlikely to accept any ceremony performed by a Mormon. If we are right, then our ceremonies have significance and no rituals performed in the name of any other god matter, since we believe that no other god has power on Earth. If we are wrong, then our God doesn't exist, so any ceremonies that we perform in his name are a waste of time and energy, so why should anyone worry about it.
Third, the idea that another religion can tear you away from whatever idea of salvation that you have is rather an uninformed idea. Why would any god allow the acts of one person determine the eternal reward of another? If I commit murder in your name, does that change the fact that I am the one who killed? Would an all knowing being really be fooled by such a claim? Then why would that same all knowing being accept a ceremony or ritual performed in another person's name when that ritual would affect that person's eternal welfare?
Fourth, we belive that the final judgement will occur after the second coming of Christ, thus no person will be 'pulled out of hell'. Instead, the person is given a chance to accept or reject a ceremony needed to be redeemed from hell, before they actually go there.

Finally, I don't care if you perform a human sacrifice in my name, because I won't accept it as valid and all of the responsibility of it will be on your head (I hope that is clear enough).

Tongue was slightly in cheek for original comments, but it has got me thinking. All of this is hypothetical (to me, at least) and I'm going over some 'whatif's.

Second the only way that they have any meaning is if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the one true religion. To assume that any god would accept the religious ceremonies of any group that doesn't worship him/her/it is illogical at best and foolish at worst. As a Mormon, I can tell you that we believe that God doesn't recognize the ceremonies or rituals of churches that don't worship him. For example, our God wouldn't recognize Pagan rituals of any kind as being valid, so any such rituals would have no impact on us as Christians. Inversely, any Pagan god would be unlikely to accept any ceremony performed by a Mormon.Accepted, probably not (except in the Narnian sense of "good done under $BadGod's name is done under mine", perhaps), but while LDS beliefs are that a person can hold the equivalent of 'dual-nationality' between their own faith and another, the other faith may not reciprocate. (There's also the risk that the LDS beliefs are right in every sense but one, namely that blessings in other faiths are ignored, or at least tolerated.)

If we are right, then our ceremonies have significance and no rituals performed in the name of any other god matter, since we believe that no other god has power on Earth. If we are wrong, then our God doesn't exist, so any ceremonies that we perform in his name are a waste of time and energy, so why should anyone worry about it.I'm not worrying, but if the ceremonies are counter-productive then that's another kettle of fish.

Third, the idea that another religion can tear you away from whatever idea of salvation that you have is rather an uninformed idea.Depends on your religion. c.f. Buffy's resurrection back to the real world from Heaven. Yes, that's fictional, but I'm willing to bet that it's about as universally accepted as true as anyone else's examples... :)
Why would any god allow the acts of one person determine the eternal reward of another? If I commit murder in your name, does that change the fact that I am the one who killed? Would an all knowing being really be fooled by such a claim? Then why would that same all knowing being accept a ceremony or ritual performed in another person's name when that ritual would affect that person's eternal welfare?You need to put the caveat of "when that ritual would adversly affect that person's eternal welfare". Post-mortem baptism is doing exactly that. (Edit: not adverse, of course, in the hoped-for way, but definitely affecting the eternal welfare in a positive way if it does at all)

Fourth, we belive that the final judgement will occur after the second coming of Christ, thus no person will be 'pulled out of hell'. Instead, the person is given a chance to accept or reject a ceremony needed to be redeemed from hell, before they actually go there.Still depends on you being right. Still causes problems if you're wrong and it's a 'real-time' afterlife from their time of death. Still causes problems if you're wrong and the spirit is tainted by the (theoretically) incorrect baptism performed upon them at a later time and that they have no choice.

Finally, I don't care if you perform a human sacrifice in my name, because I won't accept it as valid and all of the responsibility of it will be on your head (I hope that is clear enough).Dont mind me, I'm just pointing out the theoretical inconsistencies which could exist, and which have no bearing at all if you're in the right faith (or one of an arbitrary-sized coalition of 'vaguely right' ones, perhaps) or indeed if none is correct.

I'm still undecided. I accept that you're decided and hope that you (like everyone else) get what they deserve. I'm not attacking LDS faith, merely hypothesising on a 'quantum superposition' of circumstances that relate to something that very few people are going to ever know about in this world... Indeed, I wish you all the best for this life and (if applicable) the next. In the words of Bill and Ted, "Be excellent to each other.

about 400,000 of them won't give a monkey's cock because they're saved and living with god in the tent of eternal joyfulness or whatever. The rest will probably be really grateful because they're so pissed off that after a lifetime of devotion, jesus dissed them

Nah, because becoming communist will force them to renounce God and stuff...it'll work nicely.

As a non-denominational Protestant, I would honestly say it don;t matter a hill of beans beyond the obvious (pardon my opinion) disrespect for the deceased. Baptism is a volitional act. (No, infant baptism does not count, according to my tradition of belief, but that's another kettle of fishies, innit?)


DISCLAIMER: the following is the theology I was instructed in, so please, take with grains of salt as needed. I cannot make statements from another's viewpoint, but I'd rather not offend anyone needlessly.

Once dead, a human being (in the soul/spiritual sense) no longer has volitional authority over the state of thier soul. Once you die, God judges your life based on two criteria- your actions and your acceptance of His plan and proxy payment for your wrongdoings.

There's no way for someone living to change that judgement. Once your dead, you are on your own, and nothing can be done to change it.

So the dead, having no volition to accept a baptism in the first place, can't be changed in their fate after death by a baptism post-mortem.

That being said though, that's just my understanding. As I disclaimed, it's the theological view I grew up with, and I make no claim to 100% veracity.

Agreed - and I have a question about Christianity in general - the Bible says that God grants people free will to do both good and evil. However, there are some Christian branches that subscribe to that people are predestined for Heaven or Hell. How can somebody be predestined if they have free will?
ythat could start a 200page war, mgiht want to start a new one to ask that

Hey all,

Allow me to direct your attention to 1 Corinthians 15:29 in which Paul is making a point using this example. At the time, the church in Corinth was teaching that there was no resurrection of the dead (on Judgement Day) and Paul was writing them to address this issue. One point he was making was that if there was no resurrection, then it was pointless to Baptize for the dead.

That means Baptisms for the dead was a practice by the ancient church. If you want to know why they'd do that, consider this logic:

Generally, Christians believe that in order to reach Heaven one must be born again in Christ. Now, there have been millions who have lived and died in the world who have never heard of Christ, let alone had an opportunity to accept Him. What is justice? Should they miss eternal life because of circumstances that were not their fault? Should they get a free pass, even though that holds them to a different standard?

The Christian God is a just God, and therefore has a mechanism by which these issues can be addressed: Proxy Baptism. (Bearing in mind also that in LDS theology, Baptism is an essential part of being born again that cannot be left out)

Those of you who aren't Christian don't share these beliefs I know, and that's fine. Those of you who are Christian and not LDS, I know you have your own beliefs about this, and that's fine too. Those of you who are LDS, I hope this helps.