NationStates Jolt Archive

Did you know that government has killed more than 100 million people in the 20th century? Apparently not. It is widely claimed that government is necessary to prevent murder, yet governments have killed huge numbers of people. The US government alone has probably killed more people than a million Unabombers or Ed Geins.

This obvious fact seems to be widely ignored or not noticed. Why? I really don't know. Isn't it obvious that governments and government-like organizations have started pretty much every war? Isn't it obvious that nuclear weapons are far more effective at killing than mailing bombs?

Did you know that government has killed more than 100 million people in this century alone?

21st century?

Everyone knows that governments are a form of population control. Ignorant...*grumble* More seriously now; it's kinda hard to start a war without a government.

Did you know that government has killed more than 100 million people in this century alone? Apparently not. It is widely claimed that government is necessary to prevent murder, yet governments have killed huge numbers of people. The US government alone has probably killed more people than a million Unabombers or Ed Geins.

This obvious fact seems to be widely ignored or not noticed. Why? I really don't know. Isn't it obvious that governments and government-like organizations have started pretty much every war? Isn't it obvious that nuclear weapons are far more effective at killing than mailing bombs?

I'm assuming you've read Death by Government by R.J. Rummel? If not, read it. It's definitely the book for you.

Did you know that government has killed more than 100 million people in this century alone? Apparently not. It is widely claimed that government is necessary to prevent murder, yet governments have killed huge numbers of people. The US government alone has probably killed more people than a million Unabombers or Ed Geins.

This obvious fact seems to be widely ignored or not noticed. Why? I really don't know. Isn't it obvious that governments and government-like organizations have started pretty much every war? Isn't it obvious that nuclear weapons are far more effective at killing than mailing bombs?




Ya and the united States Government has committed more acts of Genocide than anyone(except Hitler i think). i don't see them getting strung up by the balls for war crimes? :headbang:

21st century?
yeah, that surprised me, too...over 100 million people killed by government in less than half a decade?

yeah, that surprised me, too...over 100 million people killed by government in less than half a decade?

3 years 239 days...

yeah, that surprised me, too...over 100 million people killed by government in less than half a decade?

I made a mistake.

I made a mistake.

Try and keep up.

interesting isnt it? we care so little about the organize killing of government when it is wildly more deadly than any other sounce of homicide.

i guess all we want out of government is predictability. meaning that i can figure out what i need to do to stay on the alive side of the governmental killing machine.

that, and that we obviously really really like war. we participate in it so often that there must be some attraction in it.

I'm assuming you've read Death by Government by R.J. Rummel? If not, read it. It's definitely the book for you.

A slightly more dated book of relevance might also be [i]The Twentieth Century Book Of The Dead' (1972) by Gil Elliot, which after a long foreword commenting on the impossibility and absurdity of quantizing individual deaths sets about number crunching on deaths caused by conflicts in the C20th (actualy 1901-1969) - and organizing them into categories:

Enclosed Privation (Camp):
a. Enclosed Ghetto
b. Prisoner of War Camp
c. Concentration Camp
d. Labour Camp

Semi-enclosed Privation (City):
e. Enclosed Ghetto
f. Siege
g. Occupation
h. Civil Disorder

Diffuse Privation (Rural & Mixed)
i. Transit
j Combat
k. Economic Blockade
l. Man-made Famine
m. Scorched Earth
n. War Dislocation

Hardware
o. Big Guns
p. Small Arms - Formal Execution
q. Small Arms - Massacre
r. Small Arms - Combat
s. Mixed - Demographic
t. Aerial Bombs

Chemicals
u. Gas

He comes up with a total of 110 million during the (68 year) period he covers.

If a mass murder seeks to escape unpunished he calls his murders the casualities of a war.

International is thus flawed that only the losers of a genocide induced war are charged for war crimes, even though usually the winners would have commited even more, see fire bombing of Japan, fire bombing of Germany, A-Bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima etc. all of the people who ordered them still run free.

But the one thing that has killed more people than any government is the Vatican and the Christian religion in general.

Did you know that government has killed more than 100 million people in the 20th century? Apparently not. It is widely claimed that government is necessary to prevent murder, yet governments have killed huge numbers of people. The US government alone has probably killed more people than a million Unabombers or Ed Geins.

This obvious fact seems to be widely ignored or not noticed. Why? I really don't know. Isn't it obvious that governments and government-like organizations have started pretty much every war? Isn't it obvious that nuclear weapons are far more effective at killing than mailing bombs?
And your solution is...

Anarchy Woooooooooohoooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

But the one thing that has killed more people than any government is the Vatican and the Christian religion in general.

I don't have the figures at hand, but I think cancer might still come out on top.

In fairness, the Christian religion has existed longer than any current world government. And alot of the time it is used as an excuse for violence than the sole reason behind it.

Also, without official government, you still get other groups springing up and taking control. after all, I don't think the mafia are a particularly pacifistic bunch for example.

Government doesnt kill people...people kill people


fool

People kill people, exactly.

Government doesnt kill people...people kill people


fool

But killers in the government don't get in trouble.

Yes they do.

But killers in the government don't get in trouble.

Tell that to Nicolae Ceausescu.

Tell that to Nicolae Ceausescu.

I thought you were on my side. Now you're refuting my arguments?

Surely you knew I meant that the government could start wars with impunity and not that murderers can kill legally.

Now you're refuting my arguments?

When they are clearly incorrect, yes.

are you insinuating that BWO must agree with you no matter what you say?

are you insinuating that BWO must agree with you no matter what you say?

No, but he isn't helping anarchism if he misinterprits what I say and argues against it.

Also, without official government, you still get other groups springing up and taking control. after all, I don't think the mafia are a particularly pacifistic bunch for example.

Yes, but notice that they are hierarchial, just like the government and capitalist firms that anarchists oppose. They are no more liked, either.

Government doesnt kill people...people kill people

just particularly efficiently while under orders and wearing spiffy uniforms

No, but he isn't helping anarchism if he misinterprits what I say and argues against it.

Exactly how did I misinterprete the statement: "but killers in the government don't get in trouble"?

Obviously flawed sophistry and painting everything in shades of black and white isn't exactly helping anarchism either.

and who gives the orders?... people.

You think governments kill more people? Idiot. Imagine the world with no governments. Everyone can do what they wish...
This guy stole my kids candy? Put a bullet in his face.
This kid stepped on my shoe? Take a baseball bat to his spinal cord.

Yeah, governments are so bad. They don't prevent anything... :rolleyes:

see, that's the thing -- the government can be both good and bad.

Obviously flawed sophistry and painting everything in shades of black and white isn't exactly helping anarchism either.

I'm sorry, but we are fighting a losing battle here.

You think governments kill more people? Idiot. Imagine the world with no governments. Everyone can do what they wish...
This guy stole my kids candy? Put a bullet in his face.
This kid stepped on my shoe? Take a baseball bat to his spinal cord.

Yeah, governments are so bad. They don't prevent anything...

And why don't government officials abuse their power to do this?

and who gives the orders?... people.

and what makes them orders, instead of requests or suggestions?

This message is hidden because Letila is on your ignore list (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/profile.php?do=editlist) .

God I love the looks of this. I wish I could do it in real life.

Ya and the united States Government has committed more acts of Genocide than anyone(except Hitler i think). i don't see them getting strung up by the balls for war crimes? :headbang:

There are many more than just Hitler. In addition to his many forced famines killing millions of Ukrainians and others, Stalin killed hundreds of thousands of people in Eastern Europe during World War Two, many of whom were against the Nazis. This includes some 14,000 Polish officers all massacred in the Katyn forest in one day. And aren't we forgetting the Japanese? They killed almost twice as many people as the Nazis in the Rape of Nanjing, the murder of about a million Koreans, thousands of Phillipinos, tha Bataan Death march and so further.
On the grand scale, the United States has done very little, and I say that as a Pawnee Indian.

God I love the looks of this. I wish I could do it in real life.

Sickening. A terrible way to get out of hearing the truth about government.

Did you know that government has killed more than 100 million people in the 20th century? Apparently not. It is widely claimed that government is necessary to prevent murder, yet governments have killed huge numbers of people. The US government alone has probably killed more people than a million Unabombers or Ed Geins.

This obvious fact seems to be widely ignored or not noticed. Why? I really don't know. Isn't it obvious that governments and government-like organizations have started pretty much every war? Isn't it obvious that nuclear weapons are far more effective at killing than mailing bombs?

This fact is known, the point is, we don't care. You don't seem to differentiate between killing enemies and friends dying. You don't differentiate between murder and casualties of war. Just because the same thing happened doesn't mean they should be treated the same way. You have to look at the CIRCUMSTANCES around the killing.

Of course there ARE examples of the government killing people for bad reasons.... but most of the time it's not.

There are many more than just Hitler. In addition to his many forced famines killing millions of Ukrainians and others, Stalin killed hundreds of thousands of people in Eastern Europe during World War Two, many of whom were against the Nazis. This includes some 14,000 Polish officers all massacred in the Katyn forest in one day. And aren't we forgetting the Japanese? They killed almost twice as many people as the Nazis in the Rape of Nanjing, the murder of about a million Koreans, thousands of Phillipinos, tha Bataan Death march and so further.
On the grand scale, the United States has done very little, and I say that as a Pawnee Indian.

Don't forget Lenin and the cheka.

Read Leviathan by Thomas Hobbes. Now.

{vent}
Letilla,

Imagine what the world would be like without government? Corporations would control everything. Dont give me that "Everything would fall into place" simply because it wont. Government is to keep order. If you dont like it than you can go and live in Antartica. Without government there would be no schools, roads, or organization. Think of no government as Lasseiz Faire capitalism, but 10 times worse.

{/vent}

Read Leviathan by Thomas Hobbes. Now.

Been there, done that: your point being?

Look anarchists,

Imagine what the world would be like without government? Corporations would control everything.

Many anarchists would have little or no problem with that, provided that the corporations were worker-controlled.

Anarchy wouldn't work, based on the simple fact that humans are ignorant and greedy. There are the occasional men and women who lack empathy and compassion for their own brothers and sisters, that would undermine any chance at the success of anarchy. Many people become power-hungry, and aren't satisfied with the fact that there is no one to lead the nation, giving them room to take what they want, no matter who they have to step on to get to it.

If this is from wars in the 20th century, why should this surprise anyone? War always comes with casualties, and the 20th century has seen the bloodiest wars in the history of mankind, particularly WWII. However, I highly doubt that the US government is the only one with lots of blood on its hands. Compared to Germany in the first half of the last century, the US is composed of passificsts.

This fact is known, the point is, we don't care. You don't seem to differentiate between killing enemies and friends dying. You don't differentiate between murder and casualties of war. Just because the same thing happened doesn't mean they should be treated the same way. You have to look at the CIRCUMSTANCES around the killing.

Of course there ARE examples of the government killing people for bad reasons.... but most of the time it's not.

All killing is wrong unless there is simply no other possible way. Hence my signature. Wars are an excuse to kill, but are no more justified than serial killing.

Anarchy wouldn't work, based on the simple fact that humans are ignorant and greedy. There are the occasional men and women who lack empathy and compassion for their own brothers and sisters, that would undermine any chance at the success of anarchy. Many people become power-hungry, and aren't satisfied with the fact that there is no one to lead the nation, giving them room to take what they want, no matter who they have to step on to get to it.

Then we shouldn't have government because such people would take advantage of government for their own ends.

Imagine what the world would be like without government? Corporations would control everything. Dont give me that "Everything would fall into place" simply because it wont. Government is to keep order. If you dont like it than you can go and live in Antartica. Without government there would be no schools, roads, or organization. Think of no government as Lasseiz Faire capitalism, but 10 times worse.

That isn't anarchism at all. Anarchism has no corporations. It's inherently socialist. I don't see what's so great about order.

All of the most orderly nations have also been the most violent. Nazi Germany, USSR, look what government did for them.

Read Leviathan by Thomas Hobbes. Now.

Read The Conquest of Bread by Peter Kropotkin. Now.

Many anarchists would have little or no problem with that, provided that the corporations were worker-controlled.

In that case they would be co-ops.

That isn't anarchism at all. Anarchism has no corporations. It's inherently socialist. I don't see what's so great about order.

All of the most orderly nations have also been the most violent. Nazi Germany, USSR, look what government did for them.


How would people have manufactured goods? If there is no heiarchy, who is going to tell people what there job is in the mass production machine?

Order keeps people in their place. From books I have read, and other sources, order keeps people out of trouble. Ever wonder why the kids that get in the most trouble have 2 working parents that are never around? Ever why a kid raised by a single mother is 70% more likley to commit a murder? Its the lack of order in a house.

Without order how would electricity get produced? People could splice off the lines without paying for it. How would we get oil from the rest of the workd without a capitan of a ship? What would the crew do? Vote on decisions? Without a clear command process nothing gets done. Look at Somalia.

Had there been anarchy throughout time, it is unlikley that the human race would have survived, everyone would be out for whatever is best for themself.


Even animals have a for of command. Look at ant colonies, wolves, wasps (hornets), etc. Without order, there is nothing. Do you recomend we find all the alfa wolves and kill them so the others are free to do what they want?