NationStates Jolt Archive


How Bush's ignorance cost thousands of lives...

LiberalisticSociety
26-08-2004, 21:25
Obviously not all are verified, but to believe all is made up is quite impractical.

Warning Signs
Compiled by Fromthewilderness.com
11. 2000 (est.) - The FBI refuses to disclose the date of an internal memo stating that a Middle Eastern nation had been trying to purchase a flight simulator. [Source: Los Angeles Times, May 30, 2002]

12. August 2000 -- Suspected Al Qaeda operatives wiretapped by Italian police made apparent references to plans for major attacks involving airports, airplanes and the United States according to transcripts obtained by the Los Angeles Times. The Times suggests that the information might not have been passed to U.S. authorities (hard to believe), but it did report that Italian authorities would not comment on the report. The Times also noted that "Italian and U.S. anti-terrorism experts cooperate closely." [Source: The Los Angeles Times, May 29, 2002]

13. Oct. 24-26, 2000 - Pentagon officials carry out a "detailed" emergency drill based upon the crashing of a hijacked airliner into the Pentagon. [Source: The Mirror, May 24, 2002]

14. January 2001 - The Bush Administration orders the FBI and intelligence agencies to "back off" investigations involving the bin Laden family, including two of Osama bin Laden's relatives (Abdullah and Omar) who were living in Falls Church, Va. -- right next to CIA headquarters. This followed previous orders dating back to 1996 that frustrated efforts to investigate the bin Laden family. [Source: BBC Newsnight, Correspondent Gregg Palast, Nov. 7, 2001]

15. Jan. 30, 2001 - Sept. 11 hijacker Ziad Jarrah was questioned in the United Arab Emirates (UAE). A number of UAE, Middle Eastern, European, and U.S. sources were cited in this CNN report, which said the CIA requested Jarrah be interrogated because he had been in Afghanistan and was suspected to have ties to terrorists. An unnamed CIA spokesman said the other sources' claims that the agency knew anything about Jarrah before Sept. 11 were "flatly untrue." Jarrah's Jan. 30 detainment at the airport in Dubai, UAE came six months after he took flying lessons in the U.S. Jarrah was released because "U.S. officials were satisfied," said the report. [Source: CNN, Aug. 1, 2002 http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/08/01/cia.hijacker/index.html]

19. June 2001 - German intelligence, the BND, warns the CIA and Israel that Middle Eastern terrorists are "planning to hijack commercial aircraft to use as weapons to attack important symbols of American and Israeli culture." [Source: Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, Sept. 14, 2001; See
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/f_a_zeitung_story.html]

21. July 2001 - FBI agents in Arizona write a memorandum warning about suspicious activities involving a group of Middle Eastern men taking flight training lessons in Phoenix. The memorandum specifically mentions Osama bin Laden and warns of connections to terrorist activities. [Source: The New York Times, May 14, 2002]

25. summer 2001 - The online newswire online.ie reports on Sept. 14 that an Iranian man phones U.S. law enforcement to warn of an imminent attack on the WTC in the week of Sept. 9. German police confirm the calls but state that the U.S. Secret Service would not reveal any further information. [Source:
http://www.online.ie/news/viewer.adp?article=1512332.
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/online_ie_story.html ]

26. summer 2001 - Jordanian intelligence, the GID, makes a communications intercept deemed so important that King Abdullah's men relay it to Washington, probably through the CIA station in Amman. To make doubly sure the message got through it was passed through an Arab intermediary to a German intelligence agent. The message: A major attack was planned inside the U.S., and aircraft would be used. The code name of the operation was "The Big Wedding." "When it became clear that the information was embarrassing to Bush Administration officials and congressmen who at first denied that there had been any such warnings before Sept. 11, senior Jordanian officials backed away from their earlier confirmations." This case was authenticated by ABC reporter John K. Cooley. [Source: International Herald Tribune (IHT), May 21, 2002]

29. summer 2001 - Russian intelligence notifies the CIA that 25 terrorist pilots have been specifically training for missions involving hijacked airliners. This is reported in the Russian press and news stories are translated for FTW by a retired CIA officer. (Note: The story currently on the Izvestia web site has been edited to delete a key paragraph.) [Source: Izvestia, Sept. 12, 2001,
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/izvestia_story_pic.html]

30. July 4-14, 2001 - Osama bin Laden receives treatment for kidney disease at the American hospital in Dubai and meets with a CIA official, who returns to CIA headquarters on July 15. [Source: Le Figaro, Oct. 31, 2001]
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/Le Figaro_osama_dubai.html

34. July 26, 2001 - CBS News reports that John Ashcroft has stopped flying commercial airlines due a threat assessment. Ashcroft told the press that he didn't know anything about what had caused it.

36. August 2001 - The FBI arrests an Islamic militant linked to bin Laden in Boston. French intelligence sources confirm that the man is a key member of bin Laden's network and the FBI learns that he has been taking flying lessons. At the time of his arrest the man is in possession of technical information on Boeing aircraft and flight manuals. [Source: Reuters, Sept. 13, 2001]

60. Sept. 11, 2001 - The National Reconnaissance Office (NRO), the federal agency that runs many of the nation's spy satellites, schedules an exercise involving a plane crashing into one of the agency's buildings. "On the morning of Sept. 11, 2001," according to a website advertising a homeland security conference in Chicago run by the National Law Enforcement and Security Institute, CIA official John Fulton and his team "were running a pre-planned simulation to explore the emergency response issues that would be created if a plane were to strike a building. Little did they know that the scenario would come true in a dramatic way." Fulton is the head of the NRO's strategic gaming division. [Source: National Law Enforcement and Security Institute, http://www.nlsi.net, http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020821/ap_wo_en_ge/us_sept_11_plane_exercise_1]

37. Aug. 11 or 12, 2001 ‚ U.S. Navy Lt. Delmart "Mike" Vreeland, jailed in Toronto on U.S. fraud charges and claiming to be an officer with U.S. naval intelligence, writes details of the pending WTC attacks and seals them in an envelope, which he gives to Canadian authorities. [Source: The Toronto Star, Oct. 23, 2001; Toronto Superior Court Records]

39. August 2001 - Russian President Vladimir Putin orders Russian intelligence to warn the U.S. government "in the strongest possible terms" of imminent attacks on airports and government buildings. [Source: MSNBC interview with Putin, Sept. 15, 2001]

40. August 2001 - President Bush receives classified intelligence briefings at his Crawford, Texas ranch indicating that Osama bin Laden might be planning to hijack commercial airliners. [CBS News; CNN, May 15, 2002]

42. August/September 2001 - The Dow Jones Industrial Average drops nearly 900 points in the three weeks prior to the attack. A major stock market crash is imminent.

43. August/September 2001 - According to a detailed 13-page memo written by Minneapolis FBI legal officer Colleen Rowley, FBI headquarters ignores urgent, direct warnings from French intelligence services about pending attacks. In addition, a single Supervisory Special Agent (SSA) in Washington expends extra effort to thwart the field office's investigation of Zacarias Moussaoui, in one case rewriting Rowley's affidavit for a search warrant to search Moussaoui's laptop. Rowley's memo uses terms like "deliberately sabotage," "block," "integrity," "omitted," "downplayed," "glossed over," "mis-characterize," "improper political reasons, "deliberately thwarting," "deliberately further undercut," "suppressed," and "not completely honest." These are not terms describing negligent acts but rather, deliberate acts. FBI field agents desperately attempt to get action, but to no avail. One agent speculates that bin Laden might be planning to crash airliners into the WTC, while Rowley ironically noted that the SSA who had committed these deliberate actions had actually been promoted after Sept. 11. [Source: Associated Press, May 21, 2002]

45. early-September 2001 - An FBI internal document, based upon field notes from Minnesota field agents discloses that the agents had been investigating and had questioned the "20th hijacker," Zacarias Moussaoui. The field notes speculate that Moussaoui, who had been taking flight lessons, might crash an airliner into the WTC. Interestingly, the field agents' requests to obtain a search warrant for his personal computer were denied. French intelligence confirms to the FBI that Moussaoui has ties to terrorist groups and may have traveled to Afghanistan. The agents also had no knowledge of the Phoenix memo (See Item #18). One news story states that agents were in "a frenzy," absolutely convinced that he was "going to do something with a plane." [Source: Newsweek, May 20, 2002 issue, story by Michael Isikoff].

47. Sept. 4-5, 2001 - A freshman at Brooklyn's New Utrecht High School who had recently emigrated from Pakistan reportedly predicts the destruction of the World Trade Center a week prior to the 9-11 attacks, according to the JournalNews newspaper in White Plains, N.Y. Citing "three police sources and a city official familiar with the investigation" as well as confirmation from the FBI that the bureau had received this information, the paper reported that in the midst of a heated class discussion the student pointed to the World Trade Center from a third story window and said, "Do you see those two buildings? They won't be standing there next week." New York City Board of Education spokeswoman Catie Marshall confirmed for the JournalNews "that school officials reported the matter to police within minutes of the Sept. 11 attack" and students told the paper that "FBI agents and NYPD detectives descended on the school on Sept. 13 to interrogate the student [who made the prediction] and others in his class," which was "an English class for Arab-American students." [Source: The JournalNews, Oct. 11, 2001, http://www.thejournalnews.com/newsroom/101101/11warumors.html]

49. Sept. 7, 2001 - Florida Governor Jeb Bush signs a two-year emergency executive order (01-261) making new provisions for the Florida National Guard to assist law enforcement and emergency-management personnel in the event of large civil disturbances, disaster or acts of terrorism. [Source: State of Florida website listing of Governor's executive orders]

50. Sept. 6-7, 2001 - Put options (a speculation that the stock will go down) totaling 4,744 are purchased on United Air Lines stock, as opposed to only 396 call options (speculation that the stock will go up). This is a dramatic and abnormal increase in sales of put options. Many of the United puts are purchased through Deutschebank/A.B. Brown, a firm managed until 1998 by the current executive director of the CIA, A.B. "Buzzy" Krongard. [Source: The Herzliyya International Policy Institute for Counterterrorism (ICT), http://www.ict.org.il/, Sept. 21, 2001 (Note:The ICT article on possible terrorist insider trading appeared eight days *after* the 9/11 attacks.); The New York Times; The Wall Street Journal; The San Francisco Chronicle, Sept. 29, 2001]

51. Sept. 10, 2001 - Put options totaling 4,516 are purchased on American Airlines as compared to 748 call options. [Source: Herzliyya Institute - above]

52. Sept. 6-11, 2001 - No other airlines show any similar trading patterns to those experienced by United and American. The put option purchases on both airlines were 600 percent above normal. This at a time when Reuters (Sept. 10) issues a business report stating, "Airline stocks may be poised to take off."

55. Sept. 9, 2001 - President George W. Bush is presented with detailed war plans to overthrow Al Qaeda, according to U.S. and foreign sources speaking to NBC News. [Source: MSNBC, May 16, 2002. Thanks to Prof. Peter Dale Scott]

57. Sept. 10, 2001 - According to Newsweek, a group of top Pentagon officials suddenly cancelled travel plans for the next morning, apparently because of security concerns. [Source: Newsweek, Sept. 24, 2001]

65. Sept. 11, 2001 - For 50 minutes, from 8:15 AM until 9:05 AM, with it widely known within the FAA and the military that four planes have been simultaneously hijacked and taken off course, no one notifies the President of the United States. It is not until 9:30 that any Air Force planes are scrambled to intercept, but by then it is too late. This means that the National Command Authority waited for 75 minutes before scrambling aircraft, even though it was known that four simultaneous hijackings had occurred. [Source: CNN; ABC; MSNBC; Los Angeles Times; The New York Times; www.tenc.net]

66. Sept. 11-12, 2001 - Nearly a month before the first reported outbreak, White House officials start taking the powerful antibiotic Cipro to treat anthrax. By the end of the year it will be known that the Ames strain of anthrax used in the attacks against Sens. Leahy and Daschle was produced by CIA programs coordinated through Fort Detrick, the Batelle Memorial Institute and the Dugway Proving Ground. [Source: NBC; CNN; www.tetrahedron.org, www.judicialwatch.org]
BUSHLIES.COM
0 – Number of meetings held by Vice President Cheney’s counterterrorism task force (which was created in May 2001)
0 – References to Al Qaeda in Dr. Rice’s 2000 Foreign Affairs article listing Bush’s top foreign affairs priorities
0 – References to Al Qaeda in Secretary Rumsfeld 2001 memo outlining national security priorities
0 – References to terrorism is Justice Department's top seven goals for 2001
0 – Number of National Security Council meetings held by Bush administration before invasion of Iraq was discussed (i.e., it was discussed at the very first meeting)
1 – Number of times the Bush administration mentioned al Qaeda prior to 9-11. This was in a notice continuing an executive order issued by President Clinton.
1 – Number of hours President Bush and Vice President Cheney agreed to allow in their joint meeting with the 9-11 panel.
2 – Number of National Security Council meetings on terrorism prior to 9-11 (out of approximately 100).
2 – Weeks into administration when Energy Task Force announced.
2 – Number of public statements by the Bush administration mentioning Osama bin Laden prior to 9-11 (excluding press briefings and press questions which would raise the total to 19)
4 – Minimum number of Al Qaeda millennium attacks thwarted by the Clinton administration (only plots to bomb Seattle, Los Angeles, Brooklyn and Jordan have been specifically identified)
4 – Number of hours Bush spent with Bob Woodward as part of his book, “Bush at War.”
4 – Months into Bush administration when aid to the Taliban was restored.
4 – Months into administration when Energy Task Force report was released.
6 – Months that it would take for Vice President Cheney to respond to draft counterterrorism and homeland security legislation sent to him on July 20, 2001 by Senators Feinstein and Kyl, as stated by his top aid.
6 – Months before 9-11 that Paul Bremer - current Iraq administrator and former chairman of the National Commission on Terrorism - claimed that the Bush administration was “paying no attention” to terrorism. “ Bremer stated that the Bush administration would “stagger along until there’s a major incident and then suddenly say, ‘Oh my God, shouldn’t we be organized to deal with this.’”
8 – Months the administration sat on an “urgent” request from its counterterrorism chief (Clarke) to meet about al Qaeda.
10 – Number of meetings of Cheney’s Energy Task force prior to 9/11
12 – Number in thousands of US troops in Afghanistan Winter 2004 (compared to 150,000 in Iraq)
36 – Months passed without any meeting of the Cheney terrorism task force since its formation in May 2001
58 – Number of days President Bush spent in Kennebunkport or at his Crawford ranch from January 21 to September 10, 2001
101– Number of public statements by the Bush administration on his missile defense (aka Star Wars) program from January 21 to September 10, 2001.
104 – Number of public statements by the President Bush on Saddam Hussein from January 21 to September 10, 2001
150 – Number in thousands of US troops in Iraq Winter 2004
700 – Millions of dollars Bush administration diverted from war against Al Qaeda to prepare for Iraq war.
President Bush admitted to Bob Woodward that “I didn’t feel the sense of urgency,” about terrorism before 9/11.
In April 2001 the administration released the government’s annual terrorism report with no extensive mention of Osama bin Laden as in prior years. A State Department official told CNN that "the Clinton administration had made a mistake in focusing so much energy on bin Laden.”
Similarly, at an April meeting of deputies Clarke urged a focus on Al Qaeda. Deputy Defense Secretary Wolfowitz responded, “No, no, no. We don’t have to deal with al-Qaeda. Why are we talking about that little guy? We have to talk about Iraqi terrorism against the United States.”
In addition, General Donald Kerrick, the deputy National Security Advisor under Clinton who stayed on for a few months with the Bush administration, wrote a memo to his successor (Stephen Hadley) that the administration needed to pay attention to al Qaeda since they will strike again. “They never once asked me a question nor did I see them having a serious discussion about it. They didn’t feel it was imminent the way the Clinton administration did.”
The Bush administration terminated a highly classified program to monitor Al Qaeda suspects in the U.S. and even provided aid to the Taliban in 2001. (9)
CIA records show that despite increased threat warnings, Tenet briefed the president only twice in August - once in Crawford, Tex., on Aug. 17, and once in Washington, on Aug. 31. Tenet added that "I don't have a recollection of being called" by telephone. (24)
LiberalisticSociety
26-08-2004, 22:10
Let's stop the ignorance.
Terra - Domina
26-08-2004, 22:11
interesting....
LiberalisticSociety
26-08-2004, 22:22
interesting....

Of course it's interesting but no one looks and no one cares.

See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil
Keljamistan
26-08-2004, 22:29
Of course it's interesting but no one looks and no one cares.

See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil


We do look, and we do care. What we DO NOT do is hang all of it on one man.

What about the embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania? The first WTC bombing? Khobar Towers? Do you likewise hang that on Clinton?

Doubtful...
LiberalisticSociety
26-08-2004, 22:36
We do look, and we do care. What we DO NOT do is hang all of it on one man.

What about the embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania? The first WTC bombing? Khobar Towers? Do you likewise hang that on Clinton?

Doubtful...

The point is that Clinton's administration tried to stop them, it wasn't for lack of trying. How about the 4 millenium plots stopped by the Clinton Admin.?

Also, Clinton didn't parade as the champion of the war on terror.
Keljamistan
26-08-2004, 22:36
Really....it's just a question.

Did you put this same time and exhaustive effort into proving responsibility for the USS Cole or the bombings mentioned above?

I mean...I'm sure you did...I just thought I'd ask.
Keljamistan
26-08-2004, 22:42
The point is that Clinton's administration tried to stop them, it wasn't for lack of trying. How about the 4 millenium plots stopped by the Clinton Admin.?

Also, Clinton didn't parade as the champion of the war on terror.

Tried to stop them???

He passed up on Osama several times.
He practically congratulated Somalia on murdering our soldiers.
NOTHING came out of previous terror attacks that showed any justice.

And as for the plots stopped by Clinton....The current administration has stopped as many or more.

I'm not a huge Bush fan. I'm just tired of people using 9/11 as a chance to bash the president. I'm not defending the President. I think he made many mistakes.

I'm defending the memory of thousands of lives that you mock and dishonor by using their deaths to a political end.

Be consistent and equal, or be gone.
Von Witzleben
26-08-2004, 22:45
He practically congratulated Somalia on murdering our soldiers.

It wasn't murder.
Seosavists
26-08-2004, 22:47
And as for the plots stopped by Clinton....The current administration has stopped as many or more.

Which attacks did they stop?
Keljamistan
26-08-2004, 22:48
It wasn't murder.

You're right. How silly of me.
We weren't trying to help them.
They weren't killed, then dragged dead through the streets.
People didn't celebrate by dancing on their corpses.

And we didn't pull out because of it.

Murder, true, is an arguable term in this case. Desecration is not.
Von Witzleben
26-08-2004, 22:49
Murder, true, is an arguable term in this case. Desecration is not.
I didn´t argue against that.
Aisetaselanau
26-08-2004, 22:53
Just shut up.... seriously this seems to be the only thing everyone talks about. Just stop: some hate Bush, some love him. This won't change anything.
Keljamistan
26-08-2004, 22:53
Which attacks did they stop?


The United States has seized millions and millions of dollars in terrorist funding. Our intelligence people have intercepted tons of communications designed to further terrorist plots....and the public was informed if not of the substance of those plots, then of the existence of them.

I'm sure the Clinton administration stopped hundreds of plots, both domestic and abroad, through competent law enforcement and intelligence activities.

I believe that the current administration did the same.

All I ask is that you stick to both sides of the story....it makes me feel as if you use the deaths at the WTC to discredit Bush. and that is just disgusting to me.
Opal Isle
26-08-2004, 22:53
tl;dr
Opal Isle
26-08-2004, 22:54
Which attacks did they stop?
The ones that didn't happen.
Keljamistan
26-08-2004, 22:56
Just shut up.... seriously this seems to be the only thing everyone talks about. Just stop: some hate Bush, some love him. This won't change anything.

I agree with you 100%...but as I said, this, to me, isn't about Bush.

It's about political gain propped up by the memory of the dead. Both Kerry and Bush are doing it now re: Vietnam.
Bush blames clinton...
Clinton blames Bush
Everybody blames everybody....

But the victims are still dead.
Keljamistan
26-08-2004, 23:00
And...it pisses me off to no end that there seems to be, politically at least, a magic number of dead people that, if surpassed, warrants public outcry for blame and change. I don't remember any of this public outcry over any of the other terrorist bombings. I always thought a life was a life...the needs of the one, and all that.
Kahta
26-08-2004, 23:06
Tried to stop them???

He passed up on Osama several times.
He practically congratulated Somalia on murdering our soldiers.
NOTHING came out of previous terror attacks that showed any justice.

And as for the plots stopped by Clinton....The current administration has stopped as many or more.




*Clicks ignore button"
Keljamistan
26-08-2004, 23:08
*Clicks ignore button"


Read other posts on here before claiming your intellectual superiority by ignoring people.

I'm NOT a fan of Bush, if that is the reason you choose to ignore.
Keljamistan
26-08-2004, 23:14
Kahta -

I may be wrong, here. Please advise if I am, and I will gladly accept my mistake.

You are from Massachusettes. Now, I don't want to generalize, but it's likely that you are a fan of John Kerry, and despise Bush.

I don't necessarily disagree with you. There are many things I like about Kerry. But...you probably read my posts, labeled me a neoconservative right wing nut job who doesn't listen to reason, and therefore wasn't worthy of your response. Does that about cover it?

The truth is, I very well may vote for John Kerry, I don't belong to ANY political party, and my general views are pretty independent, left in some areas, right in others.

Again, I may be way off base here....and I won't be afraid to admit it if I am.
King Larry XVII
26-08-2004, 23:24
The attacks on September 11 could never have been prevented, simply because the men who flew those planes into the WTC did not break any laws until they hijacked those planes. Arresting them beforehand would have been illegal and groups such as the ACLU, not to discredit them, would have jumped all over it as discrimination against Muslims. An interesting mock article I was pointed to kinda models this...

http://www.cooperforpresident.com/id125.html
LiberalisticSociety
27-08-2004, 21:50
The attacks on September 11 could never have been prevented, simply because the men who flew those planes into the WTC did not break any laws until they hijacked those planes. Arresting them beforehand would have been illegal and groups such as the ACLU, not to discredit them, would have jumped all over it as discrimination against Muslims. An interesting mock article I was pointed to kinda models this...

http://www.cooperforpresident.com/id125.html

In the world of Bush's preemptive attacks, why were a lot of them red-flagged as possible terrorist links? Read the beginning of the 9/11 report on how they got through security. With all of the evidence of a possible hijacking, you think these people might have been detained further in the interest of American lives. The CIA, FBI, and White House should have thrown a blanket alert to all airports to not allow the people red-flagged to get on planes.
MKULTRA
27-08-2004, 21:57
all the evidence seems to point to Bush knowing about the attacks and looking the other way for his own ulterior motives
Superpower07
27-08-2004, 21:59
More anti-Bush rhetoric . . . too bad it can't persuade people against him. I found that bit about the flight drills on 9/11 to be rather interesting
LiberalisticSociety
27-08-2004, 22:00
More anti-Bush rhetoric . . . too bad it can't persuade people against him. I found that bit about the flight drills on 9/11 to be rather interesting

I'm confused by this. Are you for Bush?
Dobbs Town
27-08-2004, 22:00
Hey what about the people Bush had killed 'cause it was politically expedient? Governor Bush curried favour with right-wing Texans by executing...how many people was it again? Help me out here...
MKULTRA
27-08-2004, 22:08
More anti-Bush rhetoric . . . too bad it can't persuade people against him. I found that bit about the flight drills on 9/11 to be rather interesting
when people refuse to listen to the truth then they deserve what they get. But its unfair that enlightened people are forced to suffer the fallout of rampently ignorant people who deny the reality staring them straight in the face
LiberalisticSociety
27-08-2004, 22:13
when people refuse to listen to the truth then they deserve what they get. But its unfair that enlightened people are forced to suffer the fallout of rampently ignorant people who deny the reality staring them straight in the face

::bows:: Amen brother.
Mongol-Swedes
27-08-2004, 22:27
It seems to me that the more of these I read the more I start thinking about those people in America who just run off and join the first political party that they see a pretty advertisement or news article about. I call this the 'gang' mentality, because alot of people in America seem to think they are from one party or another. Y'all following so far? ( A rather moot question considering this is text.)

Think about it; Wouldn't the best way to prevent ignorance is to teach the up-and-coming new voters that it's better to actually consider all the facts (or as much as they can absorb. I understand the Internet and other media outlets are overloading people, but that's another issue for another thread.) before they go and form an opinion that can change the world?

I sincerely believe in individualism in that people need to think for themselves. I've yet to meet people that are actually completely left or right on either social or economic issues.

Take Josef Stalin, for example. While his social policies were very authoritarian, his economic policies were rather liberal, which led to the Soviet Union being more of an Authoritarian Socialist nation-state instead of the all-left socialist utopia everyone gets confused with. Hell, socialism itself wasn't really meant to be a governmental policy but infact an economic policy that would unite a classless people in harmony. (The Incans, if you do your research, were somewhat like that, but people still had their 'place' in a purely social structure.)

I'll just summarize and try to make this simple. I'm a moderate and an 'Independent', though I tend to lean a wee bit more to the left. But I am still conservative on some things. There are good things about either end of both the economic and social political spectrums.

<Politics Gang Mentality> :sniper:
<Politics Gang > :mp5:
LiberalisticSociety
27-08-2004, 22:33
I am highly for individualism. Right now both Parties have a monopoly on the politics of America.

We need a third party rising. An independent party as oxymoronic as it sounds. One that people can become a member to encourage people to run independantly and not be pressured into complying with republican or democratic ideals. Of course this would require money. Money is hard to find for such an idealistic thing.
Mongol-Swedes
27-08-2004, 23:00
Ironically enough, those people that encourage or engage in ignorance of the issues are the ones that get the funds for their 'great cause'(s). They tell people that the 'other' candidates are all tree-hugging anarchist hippies, or somehow tied to Greenpeace, or whatever makes people wanna run back to their political gangs so they won't have to fear anyone. Then they just end up making the people fear something else. These two large political parties keep people in fear and suspicion and ignorance! I'm American and I figured the government wasn't supposed to tell people what to think or how to feel!
LiberalisticSociety
27-08-2004, 23:05
Ironically enough, those people that encourage or engage in ignorance of the issues are the ones that get the funds for their 'great cause'(s). They tell people that the 'other' candidates are all tree-hugging anarchist hippies, or somehow tied to Greenpeace, or whatever makes people wanna run back to their political gangs so they won't have to fear anyone. Then they just end up making the people fear something else. These two large political parties keep people in fear and suspicion and ignorance! I'm American and I figured the government wasn't supposed to tell people what to think or how to feel!

Yep. I think that people don't realize though that they are being manipulated by fear in our current administration. If he can paint that we live in a dangerous society and that only he can protect us, people listen to everything he says.
MKULTRA
27-08-2004, 23:07
Yep. I think that people don't realize though that they are being manipulated by fear in our current administration. If he can paint that we live in a dangerous society and that only he can protect us, people listen to everything he says.
fears and smears is the ONLY thing Bush has to run on...unfortunately fear is a powerful weapon for tyrants to use against the people
LiberalisticSociety
27-08-2004, 23:09
fears and smears is the ONLY thing Bush has to run on...unfortunately fear is a powerful weapon for tyrants to use against the people

True. Just look at Hitler.
MKULTRA
27-08-2004, 23:14
True. Just look at Hitler.
Hitler is Bushs moral role model. His grandfather was Hitlers business partner just like today the Bushs are intimate friends with the Bin ladens and the saudi royal family
Mongol-Swedes
27-08-2004, 23:21
Most people don't realize just how sucessful Hitler really was...

At that time, Germany was home to some of the most powerful, sophisticated people of that time. Wealthy, educated barons of the global economy. Hitler, with his narrow splurging of hatred and fear, managed to even convince the elite of the world that his ludicrious bid for domination was worth investing in.
MKULTRA
27-08-2004, 23:26
Most people don't realize just how sucessful Hitler really was...

At that time, Germany was home to some of the most powerful, sophisticated people of that time. Wealthy, educated barons of the global economy. Hitler, with his narrow splurging of hatred and fear, managed to even convince the elite of the world that his ludicrious bid for domination was worth investing in.
Just like Bush is doing now-History repeats itself
The Sword and Sheild
27-08-2004, 23:28
Most people don't realize just how sucessful Hitler really was...

At that time, Germany was home to some of the most powerful, sophisticated people of that time. Wealthy, educated barons of the global economy. Hitler, with his narrow splurging of hatred and fear, managed to even convince the elite of the world that his ludicrious bid for domination was worth investing in.

They were perhaps the most respected and intelligent in the world, but not the most powerful, and had a deep sense of shame and a great hit to their pride from the Great War, also great political upheaval following the Kaiser's defeat and abdication at the terminus of that war. It's a lot different then any situation today.
LiberalisticSociety
27-08-2004, 23:28
Just like Bush is doing now-History repeats itself

Too bad that nobody cares. This election process has made me lose faith in the American people.

:headbang: :gundge:
Mongol-Swedes
27-08-2004, 23:29
To go out on a limb here, I've often thought about banning political parties as an official institution, if that makes any sense. Or at least put a cap on the amount of money that an individual can donate to them to prevent corporations and the monetary elite from controlling the world. Of course, that could get messy too, but if people work at it long enough y'all might get something to work.
Mongol-Swedes
27-08-2004, 23:35
Or better yet, why don't we just get rid of the Electoral College process? People have to wake up and realize that not only does it exist (yeah, there are people even ignorant of our own election process) but it's outdated! 200 years ago it must've sounded ideal and awesome and shit, but now? No wonder the voter turnout is so low. It's pointless! Popular vote doesn't mean shit here. We are NOT a democracy, or a republic. 'The People' don't matter anymore.
Exiusus
27-08-2004, 23:39
Or better yet, why don't we just get rid of the Electoral College process? People have to wake up and realize that not only does it exist (yeah, there are people even ignorant of our own election process) but it's outdated! 200 years ago it must've sounded ideal and awesome and shit, but now? No wonder the voter turnout is so low. It's pointless! Popular vote doesn't mean shit here. We are NOT a democracy, or a republic. 'The People' don't matter anymore.

Electoral College is stupid but it might be the only hope for Kerry. Then we can ban it. ;)
LiberalisticSociety
28-08-2004, 21:51
To go out on a limb here, I've often thought about banning political parties as an official institution, if that makes any sense. Or at least put a cap on the amount of money that an individual can donate to them to prevent corporations and the monetary elite from controlling the world. Of course, that could get messy too, but if people work at it long enough y'all might get something to work.

Corporate America would never allow that.