NationStates Jolt Archive

Pre-Civil war slaves counted for 3/5ths when figuring up Representatives and that also decided the number of electors. After the 13th Amendment and the abolition of slavery, the 3/5ths compromise is thrown out of the window becuase there are no more slaves. This means the southern, democratic states have an increased power in congress and in deciding the President. Therefore, I believe that the driving force behind the 14th and 15th amendments (14 granting blacks citizen's right, but unclear about voting, 15 grants them voting rights), was not the nice morality we'd like to think it was, rather a scheme to keep the Republicans in power in the national government because surely the blacks would vote for the anti-slavery party. Opinions? (Note: This is not to say that the 14th and 15th amendments are bad, just that at the time, the reasons behind them were not exactly noble)

That is very good research and would actually agree to it knowing how governments can hide their true facts about certain issues to be "politically correct".

I like my history class in college much better than anything I had in high school by the way...

I suppose this one isn't quite as interesting as my Amer Civil War discussion from two days ago, eh? The facts are clearer on this one I suppose...

Opal, I'd love to debate Civil War stuff with you as its my favorite historical period of any....but I've never honestly thought about the rationale behind those Amendments so I have nothing to say.

Start a new thread about which battle was the most important in determining the outcome of the war however and I'll be right in there!

Start a new thread about which battle was the most important in determining the outcome of the war however and I'll be right in there!

Chancellorsville

Don't hijack. Stop now.

And for that matter, the 19th amendment (women's suffrage) (and isn't the 20th amendment voting at age 18?) were passed for the same reasons essentially.
(I don't know as much about that time period however)

That's very interesting... I never thought about it that way before.

ya know opal, if youre gonna study history, you should strive to be less naive.
EVERYTHING comes down to politics. if a politician happens to do good while doing what is in his own political best interest, we love him and return him to office.

this is why wise voters vote their own best interest as they understand it. the politicians will always do whats best for themselves and their backers, we get the scraps that may or may not benefit us in the end.

and yes this is true of all politicians, regardless of how much i like them.

ya know opal, if youre gonna study history, you should strive to be less naive.
EVERYTHING comes down to politics. if a politician happens to do good while doing what is in his own political best interest, we love him and return him to office.

this is why wise voters vote their own best interest as they understand it. the politicians will always do whats best for themselves and their backers, we get the scraps that may or may not benefit us in the end.

and yes this is true of all politicians, regardless of how much i like them.
Ya know Ashmoria, if you're going to be a poster, you should strive to use less flames. I'm quite obviously not naive or else I'd be the one posting here in response to this thread saying "That's wrong. The Republicans believed blacks were equals." ...

And for that matter, the 19th amendment (women's suffrage) (and isn't the 20th amendment voting at age 18?) were passed for the same reasons essentially.
(I don't know as much about that time period however)

I might have to take you to task about this one. While there were obviously political motivations behind this, it was a grass roots movement that grew to the point where it had enough power to make political change, much like the 60's.

Hey, aren't you hijacking your own thread?

Pre-Civil war slaves counted for 3/5ths when figuring up Representatives and that also decided the number of electors. After the 13th Amendment and the abolition of slavery, the 3/5ths compromise is thrown out of the window becuase there are no more slaves. This means the southern, democratic states have an increased power in congress and in deciding the President. Therefore, I believe that the driving force behind the 14th and 15th amendments (14 granting blacks citizen's right, but unclear about voting, 15 grants them voting rights), was not the nice morality we'd like to think it was, rather a scheme to keep the Republicans in power in the national government because surely the blacks would vote for the anti-slavery party. Opinions? (Note: This is not to say that the 14th and 15th amendments are bad, just that at the time, the reasons behind them were not exactly noble)

Umm..... yeah. How do you explain Lincoln (a Republican) who was opposed to slavery and whose election caused the southern states to seceed? The president following Lincoln was Andrew Johnson, who was a Democrat (chosen to be vice president because he was a southerner) and who happened to veto the civil rights act (which was overturned by congress).

Simply put, this is an anachronism

Yea, I'm not exactly 100% on the other part. As far as 14 and 15 however, I feel pretty confidently...and 13 was really done to protect the interests of the poor working class Americans who couldn't compete with slave labor...

Umm..... yeah. How do you explain Lincoln (a Republican) who was opposed to slavery and whose election caused the southern states to seceed? The president following Lincoln was Andrew Johnson, who was a Democrat (chosen to be vice president because he was a southerner) and who happened to veto the civil rights act (which was overturned by congress).

Simply put, this is an anachronism
Lincoln was opposed to slavery on the basis that it poor white working class people can't compete with slave labor. Lincoln didn't support black rights or the black vote (although it's anyone's guess as to whether he would or woulnd't've after the war).

Lincoln was opposed to slavery on the basis that it poor white working class people can't compete with slave labor. Lincoln didn't support black rights or the black vote (although it's anyone's guess as to whether he would or woulnd't've after the war).

Actually, Lincoln wasn't opposed to slaver at all.

I really do hate to post and run on this, but I do really have to go to bed now - 5 am here and I have to leave for work in 7 hours. :( Apoogies.

Actually, Lincoln wasn't opposed to slaver at all.

I really do hate to post and run on this, but I do really have to go to bed now - 5 am here and I have to leave for work in 7 hours. :( Apoogies.
I don't mind people posting and running as long as the provide some grounds for their statement. You just make a statement out of the blue and expect people to take it as truth. My statement is like yours (except it says the opposite), but I showed some defense for my post. You've shown no defense to either prove Lincoln wasn't against slavery or to show that my statement (which proves he was against it) to be incorrect. Lincoln did fear blacks coming up and working in factories in the north for cheaper than a hard working white would (that's not to say blacks weren't hard working), but he was also opposed to slavery because the white, poor, working class could not compete with slave labor.

Actually, Lincoln wasn't opposed to slaver at all.

I really do hate to post and run on this, but I do really have to go to bed now - 5 am here and I have to leave for work in 7 hours. :( Apoogies.

Agreed. There are several references to where Lincoln said that his ultimate goal was the preservation of the union, with or without slavery. Had he found a way to reunite the union without conflict, slavery still would have existed and would have come to a much different end at a later period.

Kind of interesting to wonder the end result of slavery were this course taken....

Ya know Ashmoria, if you're going to be a poster, you should strive to use less flames. I'm quite obviously not naive or else I'd be the one posting here in response to this thread saying "That's wrong. The Republicans believed blacks were equals." ...
so thats flamey, go figure

did you think i was wrong?

actually the northerners may have done it just to piss the southerners off, with the side benefit being that the new freemen could be expected to vote republican.

so thats flamey, go figure

did you think i was wrong?

actually the northerners may have done it just to piss the southerners off, with the side benefit being that the new freemen could be expected to vote republican.
If the Republicans wouldn't have passed the 14h and 15th amendments, the same number of elitist white males would have been voting in a larger number of democratic congressmen. The republican party was running on an anti-slavery platform while the democratic platform was doing the opposite.

Pre-Civil war slaves counted for 3/5ths when figuring up Representatives and that also decided the number of electors. After the 13th Amendment and the abolition of slavery, the 3/5ths compromise is thrown out of the window becuase there are no more slaves. This means the southern, democratic states have an increased power in congress and in deciding the President. Therefore, I believe that the driving force behind the 14th and 15th amendments (14 granting blacks citizen's right, but unclear about voting, 15 grants them voting rights), was not the nice morality we'd like to think it was, rather a scheme to keep the Republicans in power in the national government because surely the blacks would vote for the anti-slavery party. Opinions? (Note: This is not to say that the 14th and 15th amendments are bad, just that at the time, the reasons behind them were not exactly noble)
I'd argue that the reason for extending voting rights to blacks was noble. Sure, the Republicans figured it was a good scheme to get more support for themselves. But the power they gained wasn't intended to be power for power's sake which would be amoral... the 'Radical Republicans' sincerely wanted to use the power to help the slaves. The Republican party leadership especially the anti-South zealot Thaddeus Stevens were truly convinced that God appointed their party to fight discrimination and promote virtue. So to the Republican leaders, increasing the power of the Republican Party was one and the same as increasing morality in the nation and fighting the wicked Democrats and moderates.

Like I said, the results were good, but the mindset wasn't "The slaves deserve to vote," the mindset was "Without the slaves voting, Republicans will have fewer seats in congress."

Like I said, the results were good, but the mindset wasn't "The slaves deserve to vote," the mindset was "Without the slaves voting, Republicans will have fewer seats in congress."
The radical Republicans genuinely believed the freedmen were deserving of civil rights and wanted them to be good citizens and voters... other actions of people like Thaddeus Stevens proves this. For example Stevens wanted to drive out all the white landowners in the South and had a communist scheme to divide up all the land, no questions asked, to blacks. Moderate Republicans probably only wanted more votes but the large Radical Republican faction not only wanted votes but their actions also show their genuine heartfelt dedication to black's rights.