NationStates Jolt Archive

Bush asks McCain to help block 527 organizations.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/26/campaigns.527s/index.html

Maybe they can, maybe they can't. Either way, those things have got to go.

something has to be done. Only candidates who sell their souls to wealthy interests can afford to run.

something has to be done. Only candidates who sell their souls to wealthy interests can afford to run.

Relevance?

I don't know about eliminating 527s but I think there ought to be some strong guidelines in place regulating them.

I am not comfortable with the idea because it sounds like a smack in the face of free speech to me.

I don't know about eliminating 527s but I think there ought to be some strong guidelines in place regulating them.

I am not comfortable with the idea because it sounds like a smack in the face of free speech to me.

Free speech is one thing...unfounded slander and libel is another (against BOTH candidates, before anyone attacks me...).

I think there should be severe penalties for unfounded slander, libel, and personal attacks.

Relevance?
It's relevant in that 527s thrive on big donations. If a candidate doesn't please the big (mainly corporate) donors, he doesn't get the benefits of 527 groups advertizing. This limits who can win an election to who can please the wealthy.

It's basically impossible to commit slander or libel a public figure in this day and age, which is a problem.

However, we don't want to go to the extreme that the UK has gone to, where truth is not an absolute defense.

It's relevant in that 527s thrive on big donations. If a candidate doesn't please the big (mainly corporate) donors, he doesn't get the benefits of 527 groups advertizing. This limits who can win an election to who can please the wealthy.

Not just big, but UNLIMITED donations.

I see your point.

Of course he wants them gone. The majority work for Democratic interests.

He would be deathly silent if it was the other way around.....

Screw the 527s

Of course he wants them gone. The majority work for Democratic interests.

He would be deathly silent if it was the other way around.....

Yet the most effective thus far has been those swift boat guys. Simply amazing at how they have garnered so much attention for so little money compared to those moveon.org morons and the almost 2 years they have been running ads.

Yet the most effective thus far has been those swift boat guys. Simply amazing at how they have garnered so much attention for so little money compared to those moveon.org morons and the almost 2 years they have been running ads.

MoveOn has been around since 1998 (2 questions: where does the name come from? Why doesn't the media ever mention that?). Also, the recent anti-Bush ad that MoveOn released was through its PAC, which is funded entirely through donations of <= $2,000. Every donor is also listed. MoveOn's superbowl commercial would have gotten a lot of attention - but the network refused to run it.

You're seeing so much of the Swifties because of the right-wing bias of the broadcast news outlets. They only spent $300,000 on their ad buy.

This also illustrates the problem with banning 527's in this day and age - the Swift Boat vets would have gotten precisely as much air time, but it would have been as "authors". There's no way for dissenting viewpoints (i.e., to the left of the centrist democrats) to get airtime without buying it.

MoveOn has been around since 1998 (2 questions: where does the name come from? Why doesn't the media ever mention that?). Also, the recent anti-Bush ad that MoveOn released was through its PAC, which is funded entirely through donations of <= $2,000. Every donor is also listed. MoveOn's superbowl commercial would have gotten a lot of attention - but the network refused to run it.

You're seeing so much of the Swifties because of the right-wing bias of the broadcast news outlets. They only spent $300,000 on their ad buy.

This also illustrates the problem with banning 527's in this day and age - the Swift Boat vets would have gotten precisely as much air time, but it would have been as "authors". There's no way for dissenting viewpoints (i.e., to the left of the centrist democrats) to get airtime without buying it.

I think they got more attention because what they have been saying has caught on with a lot of people. Also it is human nature to look at the sensational. As you say, the moveon.org people have been around for awhile and their ads have been airing for quite awhile now. Compared to the swifties, their ads are very dull and uninspiring.

I think they got more attention because what they have been saying has caught on with a lot of people.

Yes, but it's not true. The vets who didn't join SVT - even those who dislike Kerry - say it's bogus. All the Navy documentation - written by other people - backs up Kerry. Thurlow's medal paperwork backs up Kerry. The doctor who disparages Kerry's purple hearts now admits he never saw the wound, but it was described to him by someone he doesn't remember. O'Neill has changed from "there is no watery border with Cambodia" to "I was on the watery border, but not inside Cambodia, even though that's what I told Nixon."

I was watching the History Channel recently about pre-D-Day deception by the allies. As the wizened talking head pointed out - in order to be effective, disinformation has to reinforce existing prejudices.

Don't you think the media has an obligation to point out when "one side" is clearly full of it?

whats a 527?

Free speech is one thing...unfounded slander and libel is another (against BOTH candidates, before anyone attacks me...).

I think there should be severe penalties for unfounded slander, libel, and personal attacks.

I agree. It's proposterous to think that because they have celebrity status that people are allowed to stalk (paparazzi) and spread rumors. Their is personal attacks and then their is public scrutiny.

Yes, but it's not true. The vets who didn't join SVT - even those who dislike Kerry - say it's bogus. All the Navy documentation - written by other people - backs up Kerry. Thurlow's medal paperwork backs up Kerry. The doctor who disparages Kerry's purple hearts now admits he never saw the wound, but it was described to him by someone he doesn't remember. O'Neill has changed from "there is no watery border with Cambodia" to "I was on the watery border, but not inside Cambodia, even though that's what I told Nixon."

I was watching the History Channel recently about pre-D-Day deception by the allies. As the wizened talking head pointed out - in order to be effective, disinformation has to reinforce existing prejudices.

Don't you think the media has an obligation to point out when "one side" is clearly full of it?

It may not be true, but that does not mean that it won't catch on. Say anything enough times and it becomes true.

I JUST heard a radio spot from a man who was on Kerry's boat who says kerry was never in Cambodia. This a crewman on kerry's boat saying this. So if Kerry keeps saying he WAS in Cambodia, but others keep saying he wasn't, who is right? it is a common ploy, bog your opponent down and get him off message. it is old fashioned politics and Kerry opened this can of worms himself by making Vietnam the centerpiece of his campaign.

whats a 527?

A number significantly larger than 296.

whats a 527?

Special interest groups exempt from McCain-Feingold campaign finance law.

Bush asks McCain to help block 527 organizations.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/26/campaigns.527s/index.html

Maybe they can, maybe they can't. Either way, those things have got to go.


Yes ... it's very amusing that Bush cannot do the right thing on his own, but must be forced under continuous pressure until he caves and then does a rambling "10 year" plan.

Does anyone else find it amusing that the complete findings of the 9/11 Comission (that Bush didn't want in the first place) are sealed into the National Archives and unavailable to public scrutiny until the day *after* a re-elected Bush administration would be out of office?

The man has no soul. Up until recently, his head would be on a pike as an example to others.

Yes ... it's very amusing that Bush cannot do the right thing on his own, but must be forced under continuous pressure until he caves and then does a rambling "10 year" plan.

Does anyone else find it amusing that the complete findings of the 9/11 Comission (that Bush didn't want in the first place) are sealed into the National Archives and unavailable to public scrutiny until the day *after* a re-elected Bush administration would be out of office?

The man has no soul. Up until recently, his head would be on a pike as an example to others.

What could he do? No president can pass a law....thats Congresses job and they did not forsee a Hungarian financier and a group of disgruntled vets using the loophole they left in their law to create such a flap

Oh, and the Kennedy assassination papers are sealed until 2025 or so. Go figure.

Special interest groups exempt from McCain-Feingold campaign finance law.

My answer was better....

it is old fashioned politics and Kerry opened this can of worms himself by making Vietnam the centerpiece of his campaign.

It's dirty politics, the kind that the Bushes are good at.

Let's hear it for blaming the victim - the Financial Times reported in December 2003 that the republicans were going to attack Kerry on his vietnam war record. Do you really think that if he hadn't mentioned "Vietnam" once since then, that tactic would have changed? When do you think the Swifties hired their PI and started their book?

What you're saying, btw, is that it's OK to lie about any part of a candidate's background if they use it to differentiate themselves from their opponent.

It's dirty politics, the kind that the Bushes are good at.

Let's hear it for blaming the victim - the Financial Times reported in December 2003 that the republicans were going to attack Kerry on his vietnam war record. Do you really think that if he hadn't mentioned "Vietnam" once since then, that tactic would have changed? When do you think the Swifties hired their PI and started their book?

What you're saying, btw, is that it's OK to lie about any part of a candidate's background if they use it to differentiate themselves from their opponent.

I had no idea they planned to attack him on Vietnam. I would have thought his empty 20 years in the Senate would have been enough. However, since Kerry brought Vietnam up himself, it looks like he saved the Republicans some possible trouble.

It may be dirty politics, but is there such a thing as "clean" politics? If there is I have yet to see it. From the Kennedy connection to Chicago Unions to LBJ's TV ad against Goldwater...politics has not changed.

How do we really know what is true and what is not when it comes to these things? the only one who knows what happened in Vietnam for sure is Kerry, and if what he is saying is false, would he admit it?

I had no idea they planned to attack him on Vietnam. I would have thought his empty 20 years in the Senate would have been enough. However, since Kerry brought Vietnam up himself, it looks like he saved the Republicans some possible trouble.

It may be dirty politics, but is there such a thing as "clean" politics? If there is I have yet to see it. From the Kennedy connection to Chicago Unions to LBJ's TV ad against Goldwater...politics has not changed.

How do we really know what is true and what is not when it comes to these things? the only one who knows what happened in Vietnam for sure is Kerry, and if what he is saying is false, would he admit it?

Considering their were like 7 men on his boat and some boats near him, it can be reasonably verified.

Special interest groups exempt from McCain-Feingold campaign finance law.

ok....

whats the McCain-Feingold campaign finance law?

Considering their were like 7 men on his boat and some boats near him, it can be reasonably verified.

Well, one who was on his boat is in the new swift boat ad saying they were NOT in Cambodia. This from one of kerry's crewmembers, go figure.

I say let them its on both sides really the left and right its funny kerry is pissed about swift boat vets but not moveon.org I say let them all exist

ok....

whats the McCain-Feingold campaign finance law?
one of those nasty federal laws that dont apply to the GOP as per the right wing opinion

I had no idea they planned to attack him on Vietnam. I would have thought his empty 20 years in the Senate would have been enough. However, since Kerry brought Vietnam up himself, it looks like he saved the Republicans some possible trouble.

Blaming the victim again... we can't attack Bush for his alcoholism and possible coke use because he doesn't bring it up. Kerry gets five medals and it's his fault when he gets attacked.

How do we really know what is true and what is not when it comes to these things? the only one who knows what happened in Vietnam for sure is Kerry, and if what he is saying is false, would he admit it?

Well, that's unusually stupid. I don't think that anyone is claiming that Kerry singlehandedly fought the Viet Cong. There were a lot of other people there; a lot of them wrote down what happened. Writing things down is a fairly common occurence in the military.

Of the things that have been written down, it all supports what Kerry said. Of the vets who came forward after the Swift Boat ads, they all supported what Kerry's said. The swift boat vets have said things that have been disproven - see "I treated Kerry's war wound" - and it's bogus. O'Neill wasn't even in Vietnam when Kerry was, so how is he a credible source?

http://www.spinsanity.org/posts/2004_08_08_archive.html

Oh, and that vet who was on Kerry's boat? He originally claimed that Kerry didn't leave the dock without him on the boat. He's now admitted that he wasn't on the boat for any of Kerry's five medals. If Kerry could get five medals without him being on the boat, I think he could be in Cambodia.

(Also, the Vietnam/Cambodian border is not particularly well marked. One of Kerry's crewmen has said that it would have been very unusual for an engineer's mate without access to the map to know exactly where they were at any point in time. Especially if it was a secret mission...)

However, we don't want to go to the extreme that the UK has gone to, where truth is not an absolute defense.

Out of interest, what do you mean by this?

one of those nasty federal laws that dont apply to the GOP as per the right wing opinion

ok, seriously

i want to know what the fuck you are talking about...

can someone please explain it to someone

what i can gather is that some special interest groups are financing independent ads against certain candidates....

now, given that is correct, please explain how 527s fit in?

ok, seriously

i want to know what the fuck you are talking about...

can someone please explain it to someone

what i can gather is that some special interest groups are financing independent ads against certain candidates....

now, given that is correct, please explain how 527s fit in?

google.com Try it sometime. You might learn something

I say let them its on both sides really the left and right its funny kerry is pissed about swift boat vets but not moveon.org I say let them all exist

Might the double standard have something to do with the fact that the Swifties are lying and MoveOn isn't?

http://www.campaigndesk.org/archives/000851.asp

(And, for the nth time, Kerry has in fact condemned the factual MoveOn ad.)

This is just a distraction from other things - like the fact that 1.3 million more people just slid into poverty on Bush's watch.

http://www.reuters.com/printerFriendlyPopup.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=6079297

google.com Try it sometime. You might learn something

you are an asshole

you are an asshole

What? Just because you aren't intelligent to do a tiny bit of research, I'm an asshole?

Out of interest, what do you mean by this?

In the UK, in a libel suit, the defendant has to prove that their statements were true - without using press releases or other secondary sources, just primary sources. If the defendant can't prove their statement, the plaintiff can also recover court costs. Repeating someone else's allegations is also not a defense, and I don't believe there's any 'public figure' exemption.

I believe, but could not find a handy link, that in cases where malice is found but the accusation is true, the defendant can still be found guilty.

The "McLibel" case, where McDonalds sued people for saying that its food was unhealthy, is an example. http://multinationalmonitor.org/hyper/mm0995.03.html

Richard Perle made some noise about suing Sy Hersh in UK court for some statements made (by an American in the US, reprinted in the UK. Nothing came of that, though. http://www.indexonline.org/news/20030317_unitedstates.shtml

What could he do?

He could have denounced them as soon as he was asked to, like Kerry did, rather than wait until the pressure got too thick.

What? Just because you aren't intelligent to do a tiny bit of research, I'm an asshole?

Yep! :D

Yep! :D

ok! :fluffle:

Thanks, for that. It's a disturbing thing to learn about one's own country, though.

I had no idea they planned to attack him on Vietnam. I would have thought his empty 20 years in the Senate would have been enough. However, since Kerry brought Vietnam up himself, it looks like he saved the Republicans some possible trouble.

Ever since the early days when GWB was campaigning to replace the very popular Anne Richards, the campaign tactic has always been to not attack the opponents weaknesses, but to attack their strengths. This puts the opponent in a defensive position. Funny thing is, all Kerry needed to do was shrug and say "Whatever. How 'bout them issues?" and Bush would have caved instantly because Mr. Rove cannot handle someone indifferent to attacks.


It may be dirty politics, but is there such a thing as "clean" politics?

Yep! Nine rounds of bare knuckle boxing. :D

These 527's are a neccessity and are the backbone of the liberals to get their message across. The Conservatives however have Fox News, Rush limbaugh and countless others to say their thing 24/7 regardless of the year. If things were truly equal these guys would be replaced with dead air every election year.

The only problem is trying to get the 527's to keep with the facts and no presenting data out of context. The Swift boats is one of these who misrepresent info and say Kerry was accusing Veitnam vets of war crimes when in fact he was merely summarizing what 150 former vets have testified to have seen.

Of course it doesn't end there. Look up "When Democracy failed" on Google and you'll find an interesting column that outlines how Hitler came to power and how eerily it is to what's going on with Bush's rise to power. With this in mind its not overblown to compare Hitler and Bush.

The conservatives tried to compare Gore and Howard Dean to Hitler because of their boisterous flair in making speeches. Count on conservatives to finger boisterous speeches as the reason why Hitler was such a bad man.

The conservatives also tried to finger liberals like Michael Moore as the reason
the US stayed out of WWII for 2 years from a New York Times (i think that was the paper) article that blamed pacifists for non-involvemnt. However the definition of 'pacifist' changes over time and it is the fact that conservatives like Charles Limburg and the Fortress America movement, which was a very christian, anti-semetic and conservative isolationist movement which kept America out of the war until Pearl harbor was bombed.

If I didn't know better I would think the conservatives may be trying to get support for banning "viscious" 527's from the air so their is less media for the democrats to use against him, by putting blatant nonsense on the air and stirring things up.

bad times ahead.

These things should go. They are libel machines for every candidate involved. It's very sad, however. Some decent ads by 527 groups exist.

These 527's are a neccessity and are the backbone of the liberals to get their message across. The Conservatives however have Fox News, Rush limbaugh and countless others to say their thing 24/7 regardless of the year. If things were truly equal these guys would be replaced with dead air every election year.

The only problem is trying to get the 527's to keep with the facts and no presenting data out of context. The Swift boats is one of these who misrepresent info and say Kerry was accusing Veitnam vets of war crimes when in fact he was merely summarizing what 150 former vets have testified to have seen.

Of course it doesn't end there. Look up "When Democracy failed" on Google and you'll find an interesting column that outlines how Hitler came to power and how eerily it is to what's going on with Bush's rise to power. With this in mind its not overblown to compare Hitler and Bush.

The conservatives tried to compare Gore and Howard Dean to Hitler because of their boisterous flair in making speeches. Count on conservatives to finger boisterous speeches as the reason why Hitler was such a bad man.

The conservatives also tried to finger liberals like Michael Moore as the reason
the US stayed out of WWII for 2 years from a New York Times (i think that was the paper) article that blamed pacifists for non-involvemnt. However the definition of 'pacifist' changes over time and it is the fact that conservatives like Charles Limburg and the Fortress America movement, which was a very christian, anti-semetic and conservative isolationist movement which kept America out of the war until Pearl harbor was bombed.

If I didn't know better I would think the conservatives may be trying to get support for banning "viscious" 527's from the air so their is less media for the democrats to use against him, by putting blatant nonsense on the air and stirring things up.

bad times ahead.


Amen. I'm convinced their is something completely wrong with Americans. We are too ignorant. If people knew the half of the things that Bush did, common sense would say they wouldn't support him. However, people are stupid.

Amen. I'm convinced their is something completely wrong with Americans. We are too ignorant. If people knew the half of the things that Bush did, common sense would say they wouldn't support him. However, people are stupid.
the right is immune to common sense

the right is immune to common sense

The right as in....

He could have denounced them as soon as he was asked to, like Kerry did, rather than wait until the pressure got too thick.

Funny, I don't recall Kerry ever condemning a libel ad from Moveon.org? What do you have to say to that? Did Kerry Campaign condemn an ad that called Bush Hitler? No. Bush condemned an ad that called Kerry Hitler but Kerry did not condemn an ad that called Bush Hitler! Double standard there.

The 527s have to go. Close out that tax loophole and lets have a decent election.

The right as in....
not the left?

not the left?

rofl. I mean economic...or conservative/liberal...or what?

the right is immune to common sense

Your full of it Chess Squares. For some reason there are MORE pro-dem 527s than Pro-rep ones! Why is that? Can you explain it to me please because I sure don't see it! Why is it that its always the dems that attack something and the media don't cover it and when a rep does attack something the press condemns it? The right is immune to common sense? give me a break.

Funny, I don't recall Kerry ever condemning a libel ad from Moveon.org? What do you have to say to that? Did Kerry Campaign condemn an ad that called Bush Hitler? No. Bush condemned an ad that called Kerry Hitler but Kerry did not condemn an ad that called Bush Hitler! Double standard there.

The 527s have to go. Close out that tax loophole and lets have a decent election.
maybe you should look it up

type in "kerry condemns moveon.org ad" in google, whole page fool of word for word hits

maybe you should look it up

type in "kerry condemns moveon.org ad" in google, whole page fool of word for word hits

Ok I stand corrected and on this I will apologize.

Your full of it Chess Squares. For some reason there are MORE pro-dem 527s than Pro-rep ones! Why is that? Can you explain it to me please because I sure don't see it! Why is it that its always the dems that attack something and the media don't cover it and when a rep does attack something the press condemns it? The right is immune to common sense? give me a break.

yeah the right is immune to common sense, for examples read all posts by BIff Pileon and 90% by formal dances

yeah the right is immune to common sense, for examples read all posts by BIff Pileon and 90% by formal dances

I've read all of mine dude and his and ours makes a hell of alot more sense than yours does!

Ok I stand corrected and on this I will apologize.

You should further apologize to MoveOn; the "Hitler" ads were put together by people submitting ads for a contest. The submitters were not members of MoveOn, once MoveOn was told about the ads, they were removed.

On the other hand, the Bush/Cheney website put together an anti-Kerry ad with Hitler imagery. http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20040626_885.html

(Finally, the ad that Kerry condemned was true, not libel. http://www.campaigndesk.org/archives/000851.asp )

You should further apologize to MoveOn; the "Hitler" ads were put together by people submitting ads for a contest. The submitters were not members of MoveOn, once MoveOn was told about the ads, they were removed.

On the other hand, the Bush/Cheney website put together an anti-Kerry ad with Hitler imagery. http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20040626_885.html

(Finally, the ad that Kerry condemned as true, not libel. http://www.campaigndesk.org/archives/000851.asp )

I shall not apologize to an organization that has libaled the President of the United States and I don't care from what party.

I shall not apologize to an organization that has libaled the President of the United States and I don't care from what party.

If it's true, it's not libel. That was kind of the point of what I posted. And the link.

I've read all of mine dude and his and ours makes a hell of alot more sense than yours does!
my point entirely

If it's true, it's not libel. That was kind of the point of what I posted. And the link.

Any ad that calls a Sitting President Hitler is libal and untrue UM! I don't care if they Called Clinton Hitler, though they didn't, I still would've condemned it. You can quote campaign desk all you want UM but it DOES NOT change the fact that it was Libel rather Moveon was responsible or not. They still had a competition so they are at fault as well.

Any ad that calls a Sitting President Hitler is libal and untrue UM! I don't care if they Called Clinton Hitler, though they didn't, I still would've condemned it. You can quote campaign desk all you want UM but it DOES NOT change the fact that it was Libel rather Moveon was responsible or not. They still had a competition so they are at fault as well.
well clinton was a sitting president, you have just slandereed ex-president clinton. congratulations, you are a hypocrite

lets also ignore the fact there are plenty of comparisons between hitler and bush

you want to see real libel: Swift Boat Veterans for "Truth"

Republicans have compared Clinton to Hitler in the past, and I'm sure you remember "Hitlery" Clinton? I'm positive you've been just as vehement condemning those statements.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A8416-2000Jun27

I find it really astonishing that you're willing to blame MoveOn for two ad submissions out of 1500, when those ads were rejected and never considered for airtime, but you won't hold the Republican party to anything near the same standard. (It's not like they were having a Bush == Hitler contest.)

(BTW, if you actually want to see what the fuss is about, the Memory Hole has the ads http://www.thememoryhole.org/pol/bush-hitler-ads.htm )

Bush endorsedthe Swift Boat ads wensday, why would ge try to get rid of them?

well clinton was a sitting president, you have just slandereed ex-president clinton. congratulations, you are a hypocrite

Ok, how did I slander Clinton? Oh, you mean when I used him for an example?
"I don't care if they Called Clinton Hitler, though they didn't, I still would've condemned it." I guess you messed the part that I bolded. Congratulations, you just quoted me out of context.

lets also ignore the fact there are plenty of comparisons between hitler and bush

Doubtful. For one, we are not gasing anyone. Number 2, we don't have denunciation policy. Point 3: we are doing everything by the book. Point 4: No American has disappeared without anyone noticing. Now I'll assume you have something to back this up because obviously you have no Idea what hitler did.

you want to see real libel: Swift Boat Veterans for "Truth"

I never said that I believed them. Some of what they are saying is true and other parts their saying is not. I found the book interesting and made me dig deeper into Kerry's record. I'm still looking into things. Besides, they won't pull the ad even though the President asked for it to stop.

Here's something else for you people to look up.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/25/cleland.swiftboat/index.html

Kerry had a campaign letter sent to Bush. Bush had one for Kerry! Neither side got the letter.

Bush endorsedthe Swift Boat ads wensday, why would ge try to get rid of them?

He didn't actually condemn them BastardSword. He called to eliminate ALL 527s which would be a good thing for American Politics.

Republicans have compared Clinton to Hitler in the past, and I'm sure you remember "Hitlery" Clinton? I'm positive you've been just as vehement condemning those statements.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A8416-2000Jun27

I find it really astonishing that you're willing to blame MoveOn for two ad submissions out of 1500, when those ads were rejected and never considered for airtime, but you won't hold the Republican party to anything near the same standard. (It's not like they were having a Bush == Hitler contest.)

(BTW, if you actually want to see what the fuss is about, the Memory Hole has the ads http://www.thememoryhole.org/pol/bush-hitler-ads.htm )

Ok you have me there UM but to be perfectly honest, I wasn't paying much attention to anyone regarding the Clinton Administration. I remember bits and pieces of what he did and some of it I applaud and others I don't! If anyone called Clinton Hitler then I would've condemned it.

Point 4: No American has disappeared without anyone noticing.

Out of curiousity, how are you proving that no US citizen is being held in secret detention? There was over a month where Jose Padilla was being held secretly.

Also, if everything was done by the book, why did the US Supreme Court rule that Gitmo prisoners were subject to the rule of law and entitled to hearings?

Out of curiousity, how are you proving that no US citizen is being held in secret detention? There was over a month where Jose Padilla was being held secretly.

But it was made public that he was arrested then he was held away for a month. His arrest however was publicized when it happened.

Also, if everything was done by the book, why did the US Supreme Court rule that Gitmo prisoners were subject to the rule of law and entitled to hearings?

I don't know what goes on at the US Supreme Court. Obviously the SCOTUS thought that they had the right to POW status and not enemy combatent. Everything was still done by the book but now they have access to civilian lawayers but they are still getting military tribunals and the ones that come back Not Guilty will be released.

Free speech is one thing...unfounded slander and libel is another (against BOTH candidates, before anyone attacks me...).

I think there should be severe penalties for unfounded slander, libel, and personal attacks.

There is. You can sue them for slander and libel, but you have to 1) Prove that what they say is untrue and 2) Be willing to go to court for several months or even years before you will ever get a cent. By the time the court case is done whatever the outcode it will be irrelevant because the elections will have been done a long time ago.

Doubtful. For one, we are not gasing anyone. Number 2, we don't have denunciation policy. Point 3: we are doing everything by the book. Point 4: No American has disappeared without anyone noticing. Now I'll assume you have something to back this up because obviously you have no Idea what hitler did.
rofl, you think the only thing hitler did in his whole life was gas people?
3) by the book as the GOP blurs it
4) only because its hard to snatch people out of the public without everyone noticing, they could easily do it if they wanted, and how do you know they havnt, IT WOULD BE SECRET



I never said that I believed them. Some of what they are saying is true and other parts their saying is not. I found the book interesting and made me dig deeper into Kerry's record. I'm still looking into things. Besides, they won't pull the ad even though the President asked for it to stop.
what have they said thats true, provide it.

Almost everything you said in this post is incorrect.

But it was made public that he was arrested then he was held away for a month. His arrest however was publicized when it happened.

No, he was secretly arrested and then Ashcroft announced his arrest a month later to do some grandstanding. It's easy to prove me wrong - find an article about Jose Padilla's arrest dated before early June 2002.

I don't know what goes on at the US Supreme Court. Obviously the SCOTUS thought that they had the right to POW status and not enemy combatent. Everything was still done by the book but now they have access to civilian lawayers but they are still getting military tribunals and the ones that come back Not Guilty will be released.

Okay, no. The Geneva Convenstions state that in order to declare someone an enemy combatant, there has to be a hearing. Until a hearing determines that they aren't a POW, they are treated as POWs.

For these hearings to determine whether or not they are enemy combatants - explicity required - the detainees are not getting civilian lawyers, and only one of the five officers reviewing their case is a lawyer. So far, every one of these hearings has resulted in the detainee being adjudicated an enemy combatant.

Those that are charged will get lawyers, but even if they're found not guilty, they could still be held indefinitely as enemy combatants.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/nm/20040813/wl_nm/security_guantanamo_combatants_dc
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3592186.stm
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200408/s1179537.htm

rofl, you think the only thing hitler did in his whole life was gas people?
3) by the book as the GOP blurs it
4) only because its hard to snatch people out of the public without everyone noticing, they could easily do it if they wanted, and how do you know they havnt, IT WOULD BE SECRET

Chess Squares! In all of my debates with you, I have found that you have no sense of History. Hitler Started WWII by invading poland, dug his own grave when he invade the USSR, failed to throw us back from Normandy because he bought our ruse, THANK GOD!!! I do know WWII history better than you because I've studied it. Granted mostly Pacific but I can hold my own for Europe too.

2) Frankly it was by the book. They can pray when needed complete with arrows pointing to mecca, shower and shave and use the rest room. If your good, you move up and if you miss behave you don't go anywhere. It is by the book and if you bring up Abu Grab, I condemned what happens there and I hope they get all the people responsible and NO Bush DID NOT order it to occur.

3) There would be Missing peoples report filed followed by a search and trust me, something like that wouldn't stay hidden for long. Media may be deaf at times but something strange going on and they'll report it to no end. Say what you will about the media but the Media has broken stories that wouldn't have gotten broken in the first place.


what have they said thats true, provide it.
I could ask you the same thing. The problem here is, no matter what I post you'll condemn it anyway because it doesn't match your way of thinking.

Almost everything you said in this post is incorrect.

Do you think I'm stupid? You'd still condemn it true or not!

Okay, no. The Geneva Convenstions state that in order to declare someone an enemy combatant, there has to be a hearing. Until a hearing determines that they aren't a POW, they are treated as POWs.

Actually under the Geneva Convention, they have to part of a National Army. Al Qaeda is not a national Army. The Taliban Militia is technically a National Army as is the Republican Guard. The last two were treated as Prisoners of War and not Enemy Combatents. Members of Al Qaeda were declared enemy combatants because they did not belong to a national army. Therefor and legally, are not protected under Geneva Convention Protocals though we accorded them some of those condtions regarding food, shelter, and religion.

For these hearings to determine whether or not they are enemy combatants - explicity required - the detainees are not getting civilian lawyers, and only one of the five officers reviewing their case is a lawyer. So far, every one of these hearings has resulted in the detainee being adjudicated an enemy combatant.

They are getting tried by Military Tribunals as we speak. Those found guilty can appeal as is their right and I bet they will all the way to SCOTUS if possible and those found not guilty will be set free.

Those that are charged will get lawyers, but even if they're found not guilty, they could still be held indefinitely as enemy combatants.

The government as stated as well as those people down in Gitmo, if they are found not guilty they will be released.

Chess Squares! In all of my debates with you, I have found that you have no sense of History. Hitler Started WWII by invading poland, dug his own grave when he invade the USSR, failed to throw us back from Normandy because he bought our ruse, THANK GOD!!! I do know WWII history better than you because I've studied it. Granted mostly Pacific but I can hold my own for Europe too.
yeah hitler did stupid things but there are comparisons. lets see, what happeend to iraq? oh yeah we invaded iraq without permission or invitation, invading the ussr at the time was stupid yes. and how do you know you know it better than me? because you pretend to by making assumptions from what i've said?

2) Frankly it was by the book. They can pray when needed complete with arrows pointing to mecca, shower and shave and use the rest room. If your good, you move up and if you miss behave you don't go anywhere. It is by the book and if you bring up Abu Grab, I condemned what happens there and I hope they get all the people responsible and NO Bush DID NOT order it to occur.
it OBVIOUSLY goes up higher than a handful of grunts, if you think otherwise thats pretty dumb. no bush didnt order it but rumsfeld's ambiguous orders and bush's push for information and insistance that they didnt fall udner geneva convention but should be treated like they did facilitated the problem

3) There would be Missing peoples report filed followed by a search and trust me, something like that wouldn't stay hidden for long. Media may be deaf at times but something strange going on and they'll report it to no end. Say what you will about the media but the Media has broken stories that wouldn't have gotten broken in the first place.
rofl, missing peoples report, THE GOVERNMENT RUNS THE POLICE, the police are in teh federal branch of government, any missing person's report would be ignored after it started processing. rofkl and you think the stupid public will link 2 and 2, they will think he was kidnapped or killed, look up the number of unsolved MP cases



I could ask you the same thing. The problem here is, no matter what I post you'll condemn it anyway because it doesn't match your way of thinking.everything swift boat vets against keryr has said has been debunked in one way or another, everything

They are getting tried by Military Tribunals as we speak. Those found guilty can appeal as is their right and I bet they will all the way to SCOTUS if possible and those found not guilty will be set free.
military tribunals getting tried by the sme people who put them there, BRILLIANT


"Military music is to music what military justice is to justice." - Groucho Marx

yeah hitler did stupid things but there are comparisons. lets see, what happeend to iraq? oh yeah we invaded iraq without permission or invitation, invading the ussr at the time was stupid yes. and how do you know you know it better than me? because you pretend to by making assumptions from what i've said?

We did have permission from the US Congress. We DID NOT need UN Approval since we already had it from previous UN Resolutions that Hussien ignored. So how is Bush like hitler here? He's not Chess. Check your facts here.

it OBVIOUSLY goes up higher than a handful of grunts, if you think otherwise thats pretty dumb. no bush didnt order it but rumsfeld's ambiguous orders and bush's push for information and insistance that they didnt fall udner geneva convention but should be treated like they did facilitated the problem

Dispite the grammer errors, I never stated that higher ups didn't order it. I never stated that at all. You stated it all yourself. Congratulations, thats twice you quoted me out of context.

rofl, missing peoples report, THE GOVERNMENT RUNS THE POLICE, the police are in teh federal branch of government, any missing person's report would be ignored after it started processing. rofkl and you think the stupid public will link 2 and 2, they will think he was kidnapped or killed, look up the number of unsolved MP cases

Actually, local cops have their own lists of missing persons and can institute a search without federal help. Local cops near where I live are looking into missing persons all the time. Only time when Feds get involved is when it crosses lines or they are asked to help.

everything swift boat vets against keryr has said has been debunked in one way or another, everything

Debunked by whom? Kerry? RICH VERY RICH! I remember debunking his Christmas in Cambodia alot. A guy on the SAME BOAT AS KERRY, stated that they were NEVER in Cambodia. And this from a guy on boat. I think He'll know if we were or not. Also it was this same guy that said that Kerry fled the scene after an underwater mine blew up. Not just the others in a boat. Ok now that I got that out of the way, how did he get a shrapnel wound in the same spot, same day from different incidents? Something is not right there.

Do you think I'm stupid? You'd still condemn it true or not!

No, I don't think you're stupid. I do think you have a tendency to substitute exclamation points for facts.

Great Ghu only knows why I'm doing this, but I'm going to try again. Yes, the Geneva Conventions don't apply to certain combatants. However, what determines whether or not an individual falls into that category?

The Geneva Conventions have a process in place by which the status of each prisoner is determined - POW or not. The US violated that process by not holding hearings. It's very clear that the US brought some people to Guantanamo that were not Al Qaeda - how do we know this? From their interviews after being released.

One of the things that's going on now is that the US is providing those hearings to the detainees. If things had really gone "by the book", those hearings would have happened in the field in Afghanistan two years ago, where people could say "No, I'm not Al Qaeda, you can check with these local people to confirm my story."

There's still not going to be any legal representation in these closed tribunals.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20040519/news_1n19gitmo.html

They are getting tried by Military Tribunals as we speak. Those found guilty can appeal as is their right and I bet they will all the way to SCOTUS if possible and those found not guilty will be set free.

The Bush administration has argued that they have no right to appeal beyond the Secretary of Defense.

The government as stated as well as those people down in Gitmo, if they are found not guilty they will be released.

Link?

Debunked by whom?

Lots of people. Like the US Navy. And the guy who Kerry pulled out the water. And the guy who got a Bronze Star for pulling Thurlow - one of the Swift Boat vets - out of the water.

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/CalgarySun/News/2004/08/26/602504.html
http://www.independentsforkerry.org/independents/index.php?category_id=1426
http://www.campaigndesk.org/archives/000851.asp

A guy on the SAME BOAT AS KERRY, stated that they were NEVER in Cambodia. And this from a guy on boat. I think He'll know if we were or not.

Actually, one of the other guys on the boat said that without the map, it was hard to tell where you were at any point in time. And the guy who claimed this - an engineer's mate - wouldn't have had access to the map.

Further, this swift boat guy "from Kerry's boat" claimed that he was on the boat whenever Kerry left the dock - but he's since admitted that he was not present for any of Kerry's five medals.

Ok now that I got that out of the way, how did he get a shrapnel wound in the same spot, same day from different incidents? Something is not right there.

Yes, you're right. What isn't right is that Bob Dole lied on national TV. (Oh, and "liberal" CNN let him get away with it.)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A24891-2004Aug22.html
Dole erroneously stated, "He got two in one day, I think." Kerry's Purple Hearts were received for different injuries over his four-month tour in Vietnam, during which he also received a Silver Star and a Bronze Star. Kerry spokesman Chad Clanton said, "It's unfortunate that senator Dole is making statements that U.S. Navy records prove false."

How many times do you have to be proved wrong before you admit there's a problem? Oh, wait, whenever you're proved wrong, you go back to saying that you haven't made up your mind yet.

Edit - also, Dole was wrong about the 'didn't bleed' comment. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002013026_webbush23.html Dole should have known better, since his first Purple Heart was for a minor injury caused by a grenade that he throw and hit a tree...)

We did have permission from the US Congress. We DID NOT need UN Approval since we already had it from previous UN Resolutions that Hussien ignored. So how is Bush like hitler here? He's not Chess. Check your facts here.
im sure germany had approval from itself to invade another country too



Actually, local cops have their own lists of missing persons and can institute a search without federal help. Local cops near where I live are looking into missing persons all the time. Only time when Feds get involved is when it crosses lines or they are asked to help.
oh please, those files arnt going to be just central. and if the government is abducting people they arnt going to let a friggin simple police search screw it up, they would have some one going through that killing the missing person's search



Debunked by whom? Kerry? RICH VERY RICH! I remember debunking his Christmas in Cambodia alot. A guy on the SAME BOAT AS KERRY, stated that they were NEVER in Cambodia. And this from a guy on boat. I think He'll know if we were or not. Also it was this same guy that said that Kerry fled the scene after an underwater mine blew up. Not just the others in a boat. Ok now that I got that out of the way, how did he get a shrapnel wound in the same spot, same day from different incidents? Something is not right there.
debunked by themselves, military records, medical records, other people's testimonies.

rofl and guy on the same boat stated, sicne that counts for something how dare you believe swift boat vets? they had some one who won a brozne star in the same event as kerry and was on another boat saying there was no small arms fire going on when his own military record says there were and the guy kerry pulled out of the water says there was. you are a partisan HYPOCRITE. you believe the person that was in the boat because he is working for the GOP, yet other people in the boot say it differently ,but htey are lying scum because they are not GOP, yet thats also what military records say, good job you lose


wtf are you talknig about? wound in the same spot? his wounds were not in the same spot, i'd love to see the bullshit "proof" you pulled that from.

527 groups have the same right to freedom of speech as anyone else. Bush's wish to ban them is completely outrageous and increases my resolve to vote for anyone that can get him out of office (Papers please, comrade?).

Now, I would say that it might be a good idea to repeal the 527's tax exempt status. I can see no real reason that they should be tax exempt. Sure, they may be non-profit, but they are not charity or anything. If you tax them, they won't advertise quite as much and have the same amount of power and the government will actually get some money out of it too.

Debunked by whom? Kerry? RICH VERY RICH! I remember debunking his Christmas in Cambodia alot. A guy on the SAME BOAT AS KERRY, stated that they were NEVER in Cambodia. And this from a guy on boat. I think He'll know if we were or not. Also it was this same guy that said that Kerry fled the scene after an underwater mine blew up. Not just the others in a boat. Ok now that I got that out of the way, how did he get a shrapnel wound in the same spot, same day from different incidents? Something is not right there.

Do me a favor. Get on a boat on a river that runs between two states in a fairly rural area. Now, looking just at the trees and bushes around you, tell me at exactly what point you enter the new state. I bet you can't do it unless there happens to be a sign there. Remember, border lines are not actual physical things, they're just lines drawn on a map.

527 groups have the same right to freedom of speech as anyone else. Bush's wish to ban them is completely outrageous and increases my resolve to vote for anyone that can get him out of office (Papers please, comrade?).

Not when they slander a candidate and slander violates the law. I say ban them.

Now, I would say that it might be a good idea to repeal the 527's tax exempt status. I can see no real reason that they should be tax exempt. Sure, they may be non-profit, but they are not charity or anything. If you tax them, they won't advertise quite as much and have the same amount of power and the government will actually get some money out of it too.

Problem here, I don't think 527s are tax exempt. Swift Boat Vets for Truth is a 527 and they are not tax emempt!

Do me a favor. Get on a boat on a river that runs between two states in a fairly rural area. Now, looking just at the trees and bushes around you, tell me at exactly what point you enter the new state. I bet you can't do it unless there happens to be a sign there. Remember, border lines are not actual physical things, they're just lines drawn on a map.

I know where the state borders are along all the major rivers. Its right dab smack down the river. How do I know this? Because at the half way point on every bridge that connects 2 states is the state welcome sign. Also, every map i've seen has the state line running down the middle of the river. As for being in a rural area, if you memorized maps you will know precisely where your at. Also, any EXPERIENCED PERSON would have a map on him at all times.

Not when they slander a candidate and slander violates the law. I say ban them.

I didn't say they can't be held responsible for slander - I said you can't ban all non-party groups just because Bush said so.

Problem here, I don't think 527s are tax exempt. Swift Boat Vets for Truth is a 527 and they are not tax emempt!

Actually, that's part of how the groups are defined. They are tax exempt, not affiliated with any party, and can accept unlimited donations.

I know where the state borders are along all the major rivers. Its right dab smack down the river. How do I know this? Because at the half way point on every bridge that connects 2 states is the state welcome sign. Also, every map i've seen has the state line running down the middle of the river. As for being in a rural area, if you memorized maps you will know precisely where your at. Also, any EXPERIENCED PERSON would have a map on him at all times.

Even if you memorize a map, if there are no roads nearby, or any other distinguishing mark, you're not going to know precisely when you cross a border - any border. If you're walking through the woods and all the trees look the same, how exactly do you distinguish the "border"? Answer - you don't. There is a place where you can have each limb in a different state - and the only reason you would know it is because there are signs that say so.

im sure germany had approval from itself to invade another country too

Hitler actually invaded himself. He dressed German soldiers as Polish troops and crossed into Germany. Hitler used this as an excuse to invade Poland. Nice try but anyone that studies history knows this.

oh please, those files arnt going to be just central. and if the government is abducting people they arnt going to let a friggin simple police search screw it up, they would have some one going through that killing the missing person's search

In this you are probably right! However, that won't stop the family from searching and sooner or later, the story is going to break. Its alot harder to hide something NOW than it was back then.

debunked by themselves, military records, medical records, other people's testimonies.

However, Kerry hasn't released all of his records so Kerry can still get questioned until HE DOES release them. I'm glad he served. Fine you served, now how about your 19 years in the Senate? What have you done there that deserves my vote? You can debunk anything if you set your mind to it but the problem here is that you have about 3 dozen people that are against Kerry. I don't think every single one of them is lying. Probably some are, I won't discount it, but since it has fallen by the way side I've moved on to something more important. I consider Kerry's record a dead issue and have tuned out any more talk on it, either against it or for it doesn't matter to me. Its been ignored.

rofl and guy on the same boat stated, sicne that counts for something how dare you believe swift boat vets? they had some one who won a brozne star in the same event as kerry and was on another boat saying there was no small arms fire going on when his own military record says there were and the guy kerry pulled out of the water says there was. you are a partisan HYPOCRITE. you believe the person that was in the boat because he is working for the GOP, yet other people in the boot say it differently ,but htey are lying scum because they are not GOP, yet thats also what military records say, good job you lose

HAHA!! Now your saying the guy that served the LONGEST WITH HIM is LYING? Now your reaching. Maybe he is maybe he isn't. As stated above, I don't really care anymore. I'm not a partisan anything. I'm an Independent. Unfortunately, I'm to young to vote in this election. What's important to me is the Economy, National Security, and Military. I trust Bush on these 3 issues not Kerry. Some records would be different than others as well. Problem is, who put him in for it? I don't think his CO did!


wtf are you talknig about? wound in the same spot? his wounds were not in the same spot, i'd love to see the bullshit "proof" you pulled that from.

Yea they were as sad as it sounds. The grenade incident did happen and it wounded him in his butt. Later, he gets wounded in the same spot in combat on the same day? I find something wrong here. He injures himself then gets wounded in the same spot on the same day? Odds are good but not that good.

I know where the state borders are along all the major rivers. Its right dab smack down the river. How do I know this? Because at the half way point on every bridge that connects 2 states is the state welcome sign. Also, every map i've seen has the state line running down the middle of the river. As for being in a rural area, if you memorized maps you will know precisely where your at. Also, any EXPERIENCED PERSON would have a map on him at all times.
1) if you are on a navy boat, depending on your job and rank, chances are you don't get the map
2) i dont presume you've been on alot of rivers
3) by the end of the day you wouldnt know where you are specifically if you've been boating all day, especially if it was something tense like patrolling enemy waters

1) if you are on a navy boat, depending on your job and rank, chances are you don't get the map

No but they still would've studied the area to be prepared what to expect.

2) i dont presume you've been on alot of rivers

Learn Puncuation and capitolization! I've been on many rivers from the Ohio, Alleghany, Missouri (Swam in it) and the Mississippi river. I know which way they flow and where they wind up at too!

3) by the end of the day you wouldnt know where you are specifically if you've been boating all day, especially if it was something tense like patrolling enemy waters

However, the CO in charge would know where he was at. A CO would no what a legal and an illegal order is. A CO is fully responsible for the saftey of his crew. A CO knows where he's at all times. Someone below him will too if they had the proper briefings on where they are going, how long they'll be there and what the enemy is likely to be hiding. A CO has the responsiblity to tell this to his crew to PREPARE them for it. If a CO fails in this, then he is unfit for command.

Maybe they can, maybe they can't. Either way, those things have got to go.
I am in total agreement with you.

No but they still would've studied the area to be prepared what to expect.
...? so? without a compass or map or complete memorization somehow of the terrain (which i doubt could be done) you wouldn't know where you are exactly after about a mile



Learn Puncuation and capitolization! I've been on many rivers from the Ohio, Alleghany, Missouri (Swam in it) and the Mississippi river. I know which way they flow and where they wind up at too!
learn to spell "capitalization"



However, the CO in charge would know where he was at. A CO would no what a legal and an illegal order is. A CO is fully responsible for the saftey of his crew. A CO knows where he's at all times. Someone below him will too if they had the proper briefings on where they are going, how long they'll be there and what the enemy is likely to be hiding. A CO has the responsiblity to tell this to his crew to PREPARE them for it. If a CO fails in this, then he is unfit for command.
dont forget to learn to spell "know" and to type "safety" and for proper grammar its "where the enemy is likely to be hiding"


and that is IRRELEVANT to what yo uare quoting, sicne what you are quoting is me saying, by the end of the day. your reply has to do with beforehand, not afterward

Formal seems to be in denial or lying:
How do you shoot yourself in butt? I'd figure that would be hard...
And I though tthat the GOP said Kerry threw a genade or something wounding himself with rice, how did it get behind him and hurt his butt?

See if you think 2 wounds are the same fine, you can reinterpret the sityuation and reality but to be in denial and say three wounds is just not very smart for your argument.

Please show he was wounded in butt.

Formal seems to be in denial or lying:
How do you shoot yourself in butt? I'd figure that would be hard...

Not as hard as you think considering it was a grenade that he tossed and was too close to when it exploded. He got shrapnel as well as rice in his butt.

And I though tthat the GOP said Kerry threw a genade or something wounding himself with rice, how did it get behind him and hurt his butt?

It was a grenade dude. You quoted me out of context. Something people seem to do all the time on here and its getting old. As for getting behind him and hurting him in the butt, ever heard of turning your back? I thought not.

See if you think 2 wounds are the same fine, you can reinterpret the sityuation and reality but to be in denial and say three wounds is just not very smart for your argument.

Please show he was wounded in butt.

Its been noted in military records. Problem is Kerry won't release it. Its been proven that he got wounded in the butt its even in his own biography.

imn still waiting for the "wounded in the same place twice"

He was also wounded in shoulder on the boat at one time, I learned this on MSN.
So that shows his wounds were not alll same place.
Why would you turn your butt to a genade?
WHy don't you quote book seeing as you say it is. Shouldn't say it is without: "they told me so" if you dont know personally.


Quick update: wounded in leg also.

So its niot two butt injuries it butt and leg and shoulder.

I know where the state borders are along all the major rivers. Its right dab smack down the river. How do I know this? Because at the half way point on every bridge that connects 2 states is the state welcome sign. Also, every map i've seen has the state line running down the middle of the river. As for being in a rural area, if you memorized maps you will know precisely where your at. Also, any EXPERIENCED PERSON would have a map on him at all times.

http://www.crjc.org/facts.htm

The border between New Hampshire and Vermont was set by King George II in 1764 as the western bank of the Connecticut River. The U.S. Supreme Court re-affirmed this boundary in 1934 as the ordinary low-water mark on the Vermont shore, and markers were set.

Now, this may or may not count as a "major river" to you, but around here it's a pretty important one.


Another one: http://www4.fosters.com/august_2004/08.04.04/news/co_0804b.asp

This one's actually a dispute- the boundary line may not be down the middle. (Of course, it very well may be as well, they're just wrangling for ownership). But the Vermont one is very much fact as far as I know.

Why would you turn your butt to a genade?

That is what happens when you run.

Kerry Fled

That is what happens when you run.

Kerry Fled


Umm...are you supposed to run TOWARD a grenade?

So can anyone explain why Bush is so eager to repeal the Fisrt Amendment? Because that's what he's suggesting here--getting rid of the opportunity for advocacy groups to purchase advertising time and get their message out.

By the way--the biggest 527's on the Democratic side are spending far more money on things like get out the vote efforts and voter education than they are on tv advertising.

By the was--as far as the Swift Vets for Outrageous Bullshit are concerned, I have no problem with them running ads attacking Kerry as long as they're accurate. That's been my biggest gripe--the lack of accuracy and the free pass the news media gave them for the longest time. They've been called on their bullshit--finally--and anyone who still believes them is either a moron or willfully blind (and if anyone here considers that a flame, good on you). I'd say the same about any ad run by a left-leaning 527 group that was factually inaccurate.

P.S. For all the mouth-breathers who think legislating the 527s out of existence would stop Moveon, think again. As Upright Monkeys pointed out, Moveon's a PAC, with strict disclosure requirements and limits on individual donations.

Umm...are you supposed to run TOWARD a grenade?

You throw a grenade and you RUN IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION! This turn will expose your back and shrapnel as well as rice got stuck in his butt!

You throw a grenade and you RUN IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION! This turn will expose your back and shrapnel as well as rice got stuck in his butt!
rofl, thats dumb

you throw the grenade at a distance where it wont blow up and hit your ass most likely then you HIT THE GROUND. running is stupid, just paint a big bullseye on you and say shrapnel here please

That is what happens when you run.

Kerry Fled
excellent logic, illogic that is.

what did he flee from, where did he flee to, WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU EVEN TALKING ABOUT.

the only time when i have heard him "fleeing" he was ON A FRIGGIN MOVING BOAT

So can anyone explain why Bush is so eager to repeal the Fisrt Amendment? Because that's what he's suggesting here--getting rid of the opportunity for advocacy groups to purchase advertising time and get their message out.

This wasn't brought by Bush! He is JOINING a lawsuit done by McCain. He has asked Kerry to join in it. So far Kerry hasn't. Frankly, I think this is a marvelous idea because it'll shut down ALL the libal and slander factories from both parties. Also, it'll close a loophole in the McCain-Finegold Bill on Campaign Finance Reform. If this occurs, then maybe we can actually have a decent election.

By the way--the biggest 527's on the Democratic side are spending far more money on things like get out the vote efforts and voter education than they are on tv advertising.

I will not deny this because money on the other side is doing the same thing. However, ALL PARTIES have ran slander and attack ads on eachother. Frankly, people are tired of all the negative attack ads. I want to see ads that go after records and not character assination. That is what I would love to see but the 527s dont do that.

By the was--as far as the Swift Vets for Outrageous Bullshit are concerned, I have no problem with them running ads attacking Kerry as long as they're accurate. That's been my biggest gripe--the lack of accuracy and the free pass the news media gave them for the longest time. They've been called on their bullshit--finally--and anyone who still believes them is either a moron or willfully blind (and if anyone here considers that a flame, good on you). I'd say the same about any ad run by a left-leaning 527 group that was factually inaccurate.

You think they're getting a free pass? I don't know what news outlets you've been listening too but the ones that I do listen too, have vilified them to know end.

P.S. For all the mouth-breathers who think legislating the 527s out of existence would stop Moveon, think again. As Upright Monkeys pointed out, Moveon's a PAC, with strict disclosure requirements and limits on individual donations.

I would love to see what that limit is! Could you please tell me what it is? I've looked on their site and from what I've seen, they are nothing but an arm of the Democratic Party. All they've done is attack Bush. If they were truely non-partisan as people on here claim, then they shouldn't be running ads for either candidate. Or if they do, then they should run ads against both candidates and they are not.

This and the Patriot Act. Say goodbye to illusion of democracy in the US ... and the welcome to the new police state.

I noticed the IOC are complaining about the Bush using Olympic images to promote his campaign. :rolleyes:

Bush asks McCain to help block 527 organizations.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/26/campaigns.527s/index.html

Maybe they can, maybe they can't. Either way, those things have got to go.

Honestly, who cares about this stuff? We already have a greater level of freedom of speech than any other country in the world. Now let's work on freedom of thought. No, money isn't speech, but let's work on educating the masses so that this poppycock loses its effectiveness.

This comes as a surprise to any one? Sure doesn't to me. Of course the Republicans wanted to do away with "soft money" and now "527's" why? It's obvious, because if they can do that, you may never see another Democrat in power again. The Republicans have the Democrats so out-matched in fund raising (the super rich and big business almost always support the Republicans) it's a known fact that the Democrats never raise as much money as the Republicans. If the Republicans can take away 527's then the next election it won't matter who is best to run the country, the only voice you'll hear is that of the Republicans. I can't believe any one is surprised by this.

rofl, thats dumb

you throw the grenade at a distance where it wont blow up and hit your ass most likely then you HIT THE GROUND. running is stupid, just paint a big bullseye on you and say shrapnel here please

Ok, so I guess Eye witness reports from himself as well as his biography and the people who were with him were wrong?

In Tour of Duty on page 313, he stated that he got a piece of small grenade stuck in his ass as well as rice! Boston Globe Biographers: At one point, Kerry and Rassmann threw grenades into a huge rice cache that had been captured from the Vietcong and was thus slated for destruction. After tossing the grenades, the two dove for cover. Rassmann excaped the ensuing explosion of rice, but Kerry wasn't so lucky-thousands of grains stuck to him. the result was hilarious, and the two men formed a bond.

Ok so now I have 2 accounts of the same thing both stating he was wounded in the butt. This was BEFORE the incident in question regarding his 3rd Purple heart! This is as far as I'm going because in all actuality, this thread is about 527s and NOT Kerry's Vietnam Service!

This comes as a surprise to any one? Sure doesn't to me. Of course the Republicans wanted to do away with "soft money" and now "527's" why? It's obvious, because if they can do that, you may never see another Democrat in power again. The Republicans have the Democrats so out-matched in fund raising (the super rich and big business almost always support the Republicans) it's a known fact that the Democrats never raise as much money as the Republicans. If the Republicans can take away 527's then the next election it won't matter who is best to run the country, the only voice you'll hear is that of the Republicans. I can't believe any one is surprised by this.

Welcome to the world of American Politics Steph. However, the 527s have been most active attacking Bush than Kerry. In fact, I think I've only counted TWO ads from the pro-republican 527 groups. Can you explain this? Why is it so slanted to pro-dems that are attacking? Come on Steph, I can't believe you of all people have not seen this. But then again, your in Canada so you would not know this.

Ok, so I guess Eye witness reports from himself as well as his biography and the people who were with him were wrong?

In Tour of Duty on page 313, he stated that he got a piece of small grenade stuck in his ass as well as rice! Boston Globe Biographers: At one point, Kerry and Rassmann threw grenades into a huge rice cache that had been captured from the Vietcong and was thus slated for destruction. After tossing the grenades, the two dove for cover. Rassmann excaped the ensuing explosion of rice, but Kerry wasn't so lucky-thousands of grains stuck to him. the result was hilarious, and the two men formed a bond.

Ok so now I have 2 accounts of the same thing both stating he was wounded in the butt. This was BEFORE the incident in question regarding his 3rd Purple heart! This is as far as I'm going because in all actuality, this thread is about 527s and NOT Kerry's Vietnam Service!
there, i highlighted the important part for you

This and the Patriot Act. Say goodbye to illusion of democracy in the US ... and the welcome to the new police state.

I noticed the IOC are complaining about the Bush using Olympic images to promote his campaign. :rolleyes:

I hope IOC stands for the Iraqi Olympic Committee because the International Olympic Committee hasn't said anything. Frankly, I really wasn't surprised that it popped up. Frankly, I've only seen it a couple of times. Ironically, Afghanistan is not complaining and really the only Iraqis complaining is the Soccer Team!

Welcome to the world of American Politics Steph. However, the 527s have been most active attacking Bush than Kerry. In fact, I think I've only counted TWO ads from the pro-republican 527 groups. Can you explain this? Why is it so slanted to pro-dems that are attacking? Come on Steph, I can't believe you of all people have not seen this. But then again, your in Canada so you would not know this.
i havnt seen any 527 groups doing anything to bush, though swift boat veterans against kerry are everywhere

besides why does bush need 527 group to slander and libel people? he does that just fine himself, especially with all the money from his friends in big business

there, i highlighted the important part for you

Rassmann excaped the ensuing explosion of rice, but Kerry wasn't so lucky-thousands of grains stuck to him. the result was hilarious, and the two men formed a bond.

There I bolded what happened to both Kerry and Rassmann!

i havnt seen any 527 groups doing anything to bush, though swift boat veterans against kerry are everywhere

besides why does bush need 527 group to slander and libel people? he does that just fine himself, especially with all the money from his friends in big business

Then I guess your blind or you applaud it! Which is what I come to expect from you. I've seen the ads attacking Bush from Moveon.org! I'm surprised that you haven't but I guess you tune them out because it attacks Bush and not Kerry.

Welcome to the world of American Politics Steph. However, the 527s have been most active attacking Bush than Kerry. In fact, I think I've only counted TWO ads from the pro-republican 527 groups. Can you explain this? Why is it so slanted to pro-dems that are attacking? Come on Steph, I can't believe you of all people have not seen this. But then again, your in Canada so you would not know this.

Oh, I'm aware of it. I think a smarter way to go about it would be to regulate the 527's. Not do away with them. I think election reform should also include banning of negative attack ads. When people go on the attack, either side, it's the people who lose. Lets face it, for the last two weeks you have all been fighting about a war that happened 30 years ago instead of the issues that effect you right now. The national debate is going down the drain. Of course I have opinions on that, however, they would be partisan to say the very least, so I will spare you them. However, 527's should be allowed if they are "issue" related, as in issue related to this election or future elections. You as the people would be much better served by going forward, not backwards. ..

Rassmann excaped the ensuing explosion of rice, but Kerry wasn't so lucky-thousands of grains stuck to him. the result was hilarious, and the two men formed a bond.

There I bolded what happened to both Kerry and Rassmann!
which is irrelevant to your statement that they turned away and ran, because thats not what your so called example says

Oh, I'm aware of it. I think a smarter way to go about it would be to regulate the 527's. Not do away with them. I think election reform should also include banning of negative attack ads. When people go on the attack, either side, it's the people who lose. Lets face it, for the last two weeks you have all been fighting about a war that happened 30 years ago instead of the issues that effect you right now. The national debate is going down the drain. Of course I have opinions on that, however, they would be partisan to say the very least, so I will spare you them. However, 527's should be allowed if they are "issue" related, as in issue related to this election or future elections. You as the people would be much better served by going forward, not backwards. ..

I have a better idea. Do away with television ads all together. We elected our presidents just fine before TV and there is no reason to think we cannot do so now. Free speech? Well, we ban all tobacco ads from TV so there is a precedent.

Then I guess your blind or you applaud it! Which is what I come to expect from you. I've seen the ads attacking Bush from Moveon.org! I'm surprised that you haven't but I guess you tune them out because it attacks Bush and not Kerry.
MoveOn.org is a PAC division bit better than 527, not to mention it wasnt just createdto slander bush, it has been around seen before kerry decided to even run for president

Libel and Slander have specific, objective definitions. Courts determine if something qualifies. Hollering "Libel" doesn't make it so.

The objectionable submissions to the MoveOn original contest (the Bush=Hitler ones) were removed as soon as is it came up. In fact, the only place you could see them at the time was the RNC site. They never were part of the Kerry Campaign, or MoveOn's PAC. Lots of people hate bush that aren't in love with Kerry (myself included). To continue to imply they were is either ignorant, or deliberatly misleading - either undermines ones credibility.

The seperate MoveOn's PAC (while some don't like them) ads may qualify - IF they are found to be inaccurate AND damage someone. As far as I've seen, they've been highly critical, damning in some cases - but factual. They attack Bush's policies, and decisions as president - not him personally. Frankly, It's those annoying FACTS that are damaging Bush's re-unelection numbers, not MoveOn.

The Bush Campaign was directly connected to the Swift Boat ads (which have been debunked to a level any reasonable person would understand).
www.factcheck.org.
If that content is untrue (I think it is, but a court would have to decide) and harmed Kerry (I think it did, but a court would have to decide) - he can decide whether it's worth it to sue. They also serve well to take Bush off of the Defensive - where he doesn't do well.

This whole taking-the-high-road (shutting down all 527's) approach is a transparent way to shut down dialouge that is critical of Bush.

Doubt that? Why would the Administration steadfastly refuse to answer the DIRECT QUESTION in Press conferences and gaggles over and over again:
(paraphrased) "Since you condemn all 527 ads, do you condemn the swift boat ads as well?"

It just would hurt Kerry more than Bush. They want to clean up Campaing finance - PUHLEEEEZE!
They FOUGHT AGAINST campaign finance reform more fiercely than anyone WHILE raking in more dough than anyone. Sudden Fundamental Change of Hearts? Selective Amnesia? Cold-Blooded Cynicism? Which explanation is more plausible?

I hope IOC stands for the Iraqi Olympic Committee because the International Olympic Committee hasn't said anything. Frankly, I really wasn't surprised that it popped up. Frankly, I've only seen it a couple of times. Ironically, Afghanistan is not complaining and really the only Iraqis complaining is the Soccer Team!

See here
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_sports/view/103104/1/.html

It was the IOC not the Iraqi one ...

"only the Iraqi soccer team is complaining"

come on - it was the soccer team's victory that triggered Bush's remarks.

their veiw is perfectly relevant and they were pretty damning in their comments...

one said if he wasn't there, he'd be fighting in the resistance, and "how will he (Bush) meet his God?"

it's not like they just said "no thanks"

no... the real IOC...

But we can wait for Fox News to get its speaking points from the RNC and distribute them before you reply...

which is irrelevant to your statement that they turned away and ran, because thats not what your so called example says


I was using it as an example CS!

"only the Iraqi soccer team is complaining"

come on - it was the soccer team's victory that triggered Bush's remarks.

Actually I've seen that ad before they started playing so that line is false!

their veiw is perfectly relevant and they were pretty damning in their comments...

I know this and I actually agree with them. Never said I didn't.

one said if he wasn't there, he'd be fighting in the resistance, and "how will he (Bush) meet his God?"

I know what they are saying but if they win the Bronze medal today, it'll go along way to helping that nation. Not to mention they get 10,000 dollars from the Iraqi Government. Besides, Al-Sadr and Sistani have brokered a peace deal and Al-Sadr's militia is disarming

But we can wait for Fox News to get its speaking points from the RNC and distribute them before you reply...

And I was wondering when this was coming in! I've seen what they have said on Fox News, ABC, CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC. So Fox News has covered it as did all the other outlets.

"only the Iraqi soccer team is complaining"

come on - it was the soccer team's victory that triggered Bush's remarks.

their veiw is perfectly relevant and they were pretty damning in their comments...

one said if he wasn't there, he'd be fighting in the resistance, and "how will he (Bush) meet his God?"

it's not like they just said "no thanks"

no... the real IOC....

Actually this is true. The IOC themselves have asked the Bush Campaign to stop using the Olympics in their campaign ads, the Bush team's response was no, even though the IOC have legal authority to demand they do. Lets not forget, the Olympics is NEVER suppose to be political. That one I have to call foul on the Bush campaign.

Actually this is true. The IOC themselves have asked the Bush Campaign to stop using the Olympics in their campaign ads, the Bush team's response was no, even though the IOC have legal authority to demand they do. Lets not forget, the Olympics is NEVER suppose to be political. That one I have to call foul on the Bush campaign.

And if you read my post, I agree but I did not hear about the International Olympic Committee. All I heard from was the Iraqi NOC! Sorry for that confusion.

Not intentionally FALSE but Mistaken.
OK. If Bush's ad came out before the victory, great. But I (and many others, I am sure) didn't see it before the flap.
Mea culpa

Your post looked as though you were saying that the Iraqi remarks weren't all that important... nobody Else was complaining...

Personally, I think PEACE would go a long way to helping them. $10,000 only gets you one Haliburton truckload of sailboat fuel. I do hope a bronze medal will help, but I'm not clear how.

re: the Fox/RNCcrack sorry - sometimes I can't help myself. <snicker> I'll try to be good...er more good-ish. increasingly goodly

Foul on Bush over the IOC?
Agreed

They never should have - they must have known they'd get slapped.
It leads me to think they are Just THAT cynical, and calculated about the American Public.

That's a choice made in a campaign war room done over spreadsheets, and a conference table. figure out the likely gain in imagery, the loss in taking the IOC slap - see which number is bigger.

I was using it as an example CS!
but it has nothing to do with the suggestion, that you pulled out of thin air i mgiht add, that kerry threw the grenade then turned his back and ran away or something.

Foul on Bush over the IOC?
Agreed

*nods in agreement*

They never should have - they must have known they'd get slapped.

Probably did know but I bet they tried to see how far they can push. Ironically, I haven't seen that commericial in about 3 days.

It leads me to think they are Just THAT cynical, and calculated about the American Public.

I think they tried to show that there are 2 less terror regimes. Frankly I can see then doing that but NOT by how they did it. Using the olympics for that platform. That wasn't smart.

That's a choice made in a campaign war room done over spreadsheets, and a conference table. figure out the likely gain in imagery, the loss in taking the IOC slap - see which number is bigger.

This is probably True! LOL!

And if you read my post, I agree but I did not hear about the International Olympic Committee. All I heard from was the Iraqi NOC! Sorry for that confusion.

Actually Formal, it's not even just the IOC, even your own USOC is asking them to remove the ads.

Source (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?section=oly&id=1868066)

Actually Formal, it's not even just the IOC, even your own USOC is asking them to remove the ads.

Source (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?section=oly&id=1868066)

Again did not hear that! Of course, I have not been paying that much attention to the news. Only what comes in inbetween coverage of the Olympics!

2) Frankly it was by the book. They can pray when needed complete with arrows pointing to mecca, shower and shave and use the rest room. If your good, you move up and if you miss behave you don't go anywhere. It is by the book and if you bring up Abu Grab, I condemned what happens there and I hope they get all the people responsible and NO Bush DID NOT order it to occur.


I dont condem what the interigators are doing. Ive heard stories about prison camps. If they know you have information they will get it from you. sure it sucks but war is hell.

3) There would be Missing peoples report filed followed by a search and trust me, something like that wouldn't stay hidden for long. Media may be deaf at times but something strange going on and they'll report it to no end. Say what you will about the media but the Media has broken stories that wouldn't have gotten broken in the first place.

although I doubt there are mass kidnappings being done under the current administration it is possible. If someone vanished it would just be a missings persons. If its a little girl she might get a poster posted, other then that the police will do a small investigation and then give up after a few weeks of no leads, hey its expensive to do all that searching. as for the government not being able to cover a death up? look at marylin monroes death, riiiight suicide, so why are you FBI agents here not allowing local police in? and JFKs single bullet. google "magic bullet theory".

Not as hard as you think considering it was a grenade that he tossed and was too close to when it exploded. He got shrapnel as well as rice in his butt.

It was a grenade dude. You quoted me out of context. Something people seem to do all the time on here and its getting old. As for getting behind him and hurting him in the butt, ever heard of turning your back? I thought not.

OK this i just have to laugh at. when I was at MCT (marine combat training) we heard thuds everyday. we finaly figure out what it was when we went to grenade range. a grenade is the worste thing to wound yourself with! 5 meter kill radius and 15 meter injury radius. I think I would rather take a .45 to the ass then shrapnel because shrapnel does not make "clean" cuts. it tears flesh and muscle and is real hard to get out. But I presume you know this already because you can navigate rivers by bends and shrubs. O in vietnam communications were just getting "advanced" and people had a general idea where they were at. And even today with GPS people still get lost and make wrong turns. But I guess that cant happen because man is infallible.

Welcome to the world of American Politics Steph. However, the 527s have been most active attacking Bush than Kerry. In fact, I think I've only counted TWO ads from the pro-republican 527 groups. Can you explain this? Why is it so slanted to pro-dems that are attacking? Come on Steph, I can't believe you of all people have not seen this. But then again, your in Canada so you would not know this.

Maybe because it is a Republican in power and doing a crappy job, not the other way around? If a Democrat was currently president, you'd see a whole lot more pro-Republican attack ads. Such is politics.

Actually this is true. The IOC themselves have asked the Bush Campaign to stop using the Olympics in their campaign ads, the Bush team's response was no, even though the IOC have legal authority to demand they do. Lets not forget, the Olympics is NEVER suppose to be political. That one I have to call foul on the Bush campaign.

Yeah, well images of dead people at the WTC weren't supposed to be used for politics either, but it didn't stop good ole' Bush.

OK this i just have to laugh at. when I was at MCT (marine combat training) we heard thuds everyday. we finaly figure out what it was when we went to grenade range. a grenade is the worste thing to wound yourself with! 5 meter kill radius and 15 meter injury radius. I think I would rather take a .45 to the ass then shrapnel because shrapnel does not make "clean" cuts. it tears flesh and muscle and is real hard to get out. But I presume you know this already because you can navigate rivers by bends and shrubs. O in vietnam communications were just getting "advanced" and people had a general idea where they were at. And even today with GPS people still get lost and make wrong turns. But I guess that cant happen because man is infallible.
the best part is, i didnt take her out of context, she said he threw the grenade then turned around and ran the other way, where aas the thing she is citing for proof says they dove for cover

the best part is, i didnt take her out of context, she said he threw the grenade then turned around and ran the other way, where aas the thing she is citing for proof says they dove for cover

And as I told you before CS, I was answering someone else regarding getting hit in the butt with a grenade. I never said that Kerry ran away.

And as I told you before CS, I was answering someone else regarding getting hit in the butt with a grenade. I never said that Kerry ran away.
i stand corrected, you never SAID it, you INSENUATED it. good job with plausible deniability there

here is what you said


"You throw a grenade and you RUN IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION! This turn will expose your back and shrapnel as well as rice got stuck in his butt!"

you insinuated that is how kerry was injured, throwing a grenade and turning the other way and running,


wait at a quicker read over. you DID say that's what kerry did


"You throw a grenade and you RUN IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION! This turn will expose your back and shrapnel as well as rice got stuck in his butt!"


good job, you've been exposed

i stand corrected, you never SAID it, you INSENUATED it. good job with plausible deniability there

Never insenuated either. Now you are quoting me out of context!

Never insenuated either. Now you are quoting me out of context!

Don't worry about him...he is blind. ;)

Never insenuated either. Now you are quoting me out of context!
wrong, i just outlined your friggin statement for you, read the post

wrong, i just outlined your friggin statement for you, read the post

I know what I said but Biff is right, your seeing things that are not there! Thanks for quoting me out of context.

OK this i just have to laugh at. when I was at MCT (marine combat training) we heard thuds everyday. we finaly figure out what it was when we went to grenade range. a grenade is the worste thing to wound yourself with! 5 meter kill radius and 15 meter injury radius. I think I would rather take a .45 to the ass then shrapnel because shrapnel does not make "clean" cuts. it tears flesh and muscle and is real hard to get out. But I presume you know this already because you can navigate rivers by bends and shrubs. O in vietnam communications were just getting "advanced" and people had a general idea where they were at. And even today with GPS people still get lost and make wrong turns. But I guess that cant happen because man is infallible.

This is all fine and dandy, however Kerry never won any medals for this, you know that right? It was his shoulder not his butt that got injured just before he saved Rassman from the water (where all naval records back up Kerry's story) and Rassman put him in for the medal. So, really, this is much to do about nothing.

I know what I said but Biff is right, your seeing things that are not there! Thanks for quoting me out of context.

how can i quote you out of context by quoting the ENTIRE OF YOUR MESSAGE

and i HIGHLIGHTED your message, you said "This turn will expose your back and shrapnel as well as rice got stuck in HIS butt"


i was wrong, both you and biff have the same amount of common sense, which is a good deal lower than that of my cat

Kerry got his silver star for rescueing a sailor in teh water while his arm was injured. that got him a purple heart as well I presume. I dont know where his other two purple hearts were from but from what I have been reading it sounds like FD and CS are saying he got one from getting rice in teh ass from a grenade and another injury in the leg. therefore my mentioning how grenades are the worste idea ever to personaly injure yourself is a valid information.

EDIT -- I know the general story behind the whole kerry incident but not the specifics. It is not important to me for two reasons 1) a silver star is very respectiable and I could not imagine any group of military personel all saying the same "fake" story to opt for one man to get a medal. 2) He served honorably, more then I can say for Bush. and besides this is a presidential race, tell me what you are going to do as president.

excellent logic, illogic that is.

what did he flee from, where did he flee to, WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU EVEN TALKING ABOUT.

the only time when i have heard him "fleeing" he was ON A FRIGGIN MOVING BOAT
You are quick like buffalo, Grasshopper.

Kerry Fled

Welcome to the world of American Politics Steph. However, the 527s have been most active attacking Bush than Kerry. In fact, I think I've only counted TWO ads from the pro-republican 527 groups. Can you explain this? Why is it so slanted to pro-dems that are attacking? Come on Steph, I can't believe you of all people have not seen this. But then again, your in Canada so you would not know this.

I can tell you why, Formal Dances, and there's nothing sinister about it. For years, Republicans have enjoyed a financial advatnage in campaign fundraising. When the McCain/Feingold Campaign Finance law was written and passed (and praised, I might add, by the guy who's complaining loudest about 527s right now, George W. Bush), the idea was to get rid of large donations directly to the parties, and the 527 groups were created as an outlet for big money to be able to still be involved in politics.

Democratic activist groups (not the party) suddenly saw a chance for expansion--since corporations and rich people couldn't write big checks to the party directly, they would have to look for someone else if they wanted to be involved, and the 527 groups filled the bill. Democratic activist groups were around long before the 527 exception existed, and some were created afterward as a response to the early success of groups like Moveon.org (a 527, but not the same as Moveon PAC, which is running most of the commercials). But in short, there were more groups on the ground and they started fundraising earlier than their Republican counterparts.

There's also another reason--and I hope you're still reading by this point, FD. The Republicans had hoped to get the Federal Election Commission to severely limit the 527s ability to advertise--they created a highly partisan 527, ran a batshit ad, and then asked the FEC to rule on whether or not it was okay. They figured the FEC would crack down, and the money that had been poured into the Democratic leaning 527 groups would be gone. They misjudged, and then suddenly found themselves on the short end of a big fundraising stick. That's a big reason why they're pissy about it right now--because their plan failed.

You are quick like buffalo, Grasshopper.

Kerry Fled
you look like a complete idiot while ignoring the questions entirely, bravo

you look like a complete idiot while ignoring the questions entirely, bravo
My resemblence to you not withstanding, Kerry Fled from the enemy when the mine went off, while all the rest of the boats stayed to help out the wounded boat.

Kerry Fled

Formal Dances, telling someone to learn capitalization and punctuation is laughable at best - considering you yourself cannot make a single post using proper grammar, spelling, and capitalization where needed.

And as for the grenade thing you quoted, where does it say that there was rice stuck in his arse? As I read the quote, it says that Kerry had thousands of rice grains stuck to him - there is a difference to being covered in rice and having it sticking to you, and having rice being in ones butt.


Rassmann excaped the ensuing explosion of rice, but Kerry wasn't so lucky-thousands of grains stuck to him. the result was hilarious, and the two men formed a bond.