NationStates Jolt Archive

In the past, these protests sometimes have gotten out of hand - there's been a lot of talk about various protests groups getting denied to assemble wherever in NYC. Honestly, as long as the protestors are not damaging property or causing bodily harm to anybody, let them protest!

But they're opposed to the President of the United States of American! Surely that's treason?

"freedom of speech" zones anyone?

"freedom of speech" zones anyone?
*sigh* oh for the days when America was a free speech zone...

*sigh* oh for the days when America was a free speech zone...

but the rules changed on 9-11.

after that, EVERYTHING changed....

right?

but the rules changed on 9-11.

after that, EVERYTHING changed....

right?
of course. because the best way to combat the enemies of freedom is to reduce the freedoms of the American people.

of course. because the best way to combat the enemies of freedom is to reduce the freedoms of the American people.


lol

i like that, im going to steal it someday and call it my own!

lol

i like that, im going to steal it someday and call it my own!
be my guest...i stole it from the Bush administration, myself.

of course. because the best way to combat the enemies of freedom is to reduce the freedoms of the American people.

If GWB had a NationState, he should check out my Forum signature!

In the past, these protests sometimes have gotten out of hand - there's been a lot of talk about various protests groups getting denied to assemble wherever in NYC. Honestly, as long as the protestors are not damaging property or causing bodily harm to anybody, let them protest!

Actually, "damaging property" is the justification behind the biggest denial of permit I've heard about; one group wanted to march up 8th Avenue past the convention site and then hold a rally in Central Park. The mayor has denied them the permit for assembly in the park, because he feels it would damage the turf. And, in his defense, there was an incident some years back that lead to the turf being so torn up where it was staged, they had to close that section of the park and re-seed it.

However, the alternative the mayor proposed -- standing along a major highway in the sun -- is just plain stupid. And, the event that damaged the turf lo these years ago? The NYC premiere of the film POCOHANTAS.

Well, this is what we are saying when we tell the government that we should have the right to bear arms. If the government gets out of hand, we have to have options. I'm not saying open warfare with the government, but we have to keep them nervous.

If Bush wants to crush the basic freedoms he "stands" for, it will just go to further prove that politics is a cesspool, and that America has let it get too deep and too mucky. Two party system, jeez.

-Fury

Well, this is what we are saying when we tell the government that we should have the right to bear arms. If the government gets out of hand, we have to have options. I'm not saying open warfare with the government, but we have to keep them nervous.


you are an idiot

you could have 7 ak47s in your bedroom, the government isnt scared of you.

Look at Wayco, the only reason that was a standoff was because the government had to show control and whatnot.

Seriously, i wouldnt fuck with your military... yet...

Well, this is what we are saying when we tell the government that we should have the right to bear arms.

Yes, but do you think the intent was really for each of us INDIVIDUALLY to assemble a full arsenal?

LOL, when I was in the military I always thought the militias back home were a huge joke. After seeing a few of them in action, its re-affirmed my belief about that. I'll take the US Army in that fight.

Well, this is what we are saying when we tell the government that we should have the right to bear arms. If the government gets out of hand, we have to have options. I'm not saying open warfare with the government, but we have to keep them nervous.

If Bush wants to crush the basic freedoms he "stands" for, it will just go to further prove that politics is a cesspool, and that America has let it get too deep and too mucky. Two party system, jeez.

-Fury
lol, yeah, because the government is scared of you and your guns. they really are going to change policy because some people get boom-sticks and yell a bunch. the government in control of one of the most powerful military machines in the history of the world is really going to give a damn about the guns hidden in random people's sock drawers. you just keep telling yourself that.

The problem is that, along with the bona fide protesters who wish to make their opinions known, you get violent thugs who delight in throwing bottles, pushing over barricades, setting fires, going to gun ranges first so police dogs will pick up the smell of gunpowder, attacking cops, etc. just so they can get pictures of police macing people or defending themselves with their sticks --

--and then use it for justification to call authority brutal.

I wish I could see a better way to make sure peaceful protesters could get access. Me, I'm getting the hell out of Dodge till the freaking convention-goers drag their sorry asses back to wherever they are from.

Having the RNC here is just a ploy to use NYC as a symbol to justify Shrub's re-election.... it offends me. Don't use me for a fucking re-election campaign symbol. We've had enough to do to heal our own wounds without someone waving the flag and telling us that the answer is four more years of the kind of mismanagement, economic stalling, and foreign policy that have made life oh so interesting since Bush got into office. I got news for you, we don't need any more fertilizer to make this shrub grow; we need a new landscaper to tear all these weeds out and replant altogether.

"LOL, when I was in the military I always thought the militias back home were a huge joke. After seeing a few of them in action, its re-affirmed my belief about that. I'll take the US Army in that fight."

I would even take the US coast gaurd in that fight. Lets face it, its the malitia's of today that make the word 'malitia' mean unorganized, untrained, and dillusional by thinking thier fellow Americans that serve in the armed forces to protect it, would then try to destroy it. If such a crazy thing happened, you would have entire units within the military that would uprise against the ones following illegal orders to kill and maim thier fellow Americans. I think people forget that us veterans and active duty personel are just like any other American. Just because you are serving your commander in chief doesn't mean you lose all compassion, sesibility and subordination for your nation. As it says, "the Military shall be kept in strict subordination to the civil power" we die and take wounds for every American, not just whoever the current president is.

Actually, "damaging property" is the justification behind the biggest denial of permit I've heard about; one group wanted to march up 8th Avenue past the convention site and then hold a rally in Central Park. The mayor has denied them the permit for assembly in the park, because he feels it would damage the turf.
I was also semi-outraged at this until I did a tiny bit of research. The only suitable venue for this is the Sheep Meadow, and it's been Central Park's policy for some time now to deny permits for large gatherings.
The pastoral nature of the Sheep Meadow would radically change during the 1960s and 1970s when the field was used for political causes, heavy sports use and large-scale concerts. Vietnam protests, "gay-ins" and hippie "love-ins" were a sign of the times, but it was the worst of times for the lush green grass of the Sheep Meadow which had become mutilated by the massive crowds.

With the changing times and extensive restoration the area now reserved "for quiet enjoyment" is once again a beautiful green meadow that can draw crowds of 30,000 on a typical summer day.http://www.centralpark2000.com/database/sheep_meadow.html

I still don't like the idea of isolating protestors in 'free speech zones', but they don't have a legally protected right to pick their venue, only to express their views. Let them rent a big hall if they want to. Pity the RNC already has Madison Square Gardens reserved and paid for.

The problem is that, along with the bona fide protesters who wish to make their opinions known, you get violent thugs who delight in throwing bottles, pushing over barricades, setting fires, going to gun ranges first so police dogs will pick up the smell of gunpowder, attacking cops, etc. just so they can get pictures of police macing people or defending themselves with their sticks --

--and then use it for justification to call authority brutal.

first off, you have it backwards. in nearly every case, nobody does much of anything other than some minor politically motivated property destruction (more windows are broken by kids playing baseball than we can be blamed for ) or attempt to break through arbitrary police lines that declare that beyond this point there is no protest or free speech allowed, until after the police attack us. these cops are so hyped up by the propaganda and training videos that perpetuate these ridiculous charges against us that they over-react and start making 'pre-emptive arrests' and launching tear gas and rubber bullets or just making a baton charge at a crowd of people who are merely sitting in the street or a park. now if anybody else tried to do shit like that, you'd stand up and kick their ass. well, cops are no different in our eyes - if you attack us we will defend ourselves. which means barricades, throwing tear gas back, disrupting police organization, unarresting people, and creating diversions to allow others to retreat. if you check out the actual stories on what happens at protests and the follow up coverage - especially the various court cases we have going - you see that almost all of the time we are found to be mostly in the right and the cops are fined for their criminal behavior.

second, the smelling like gunpowder thing was, as far as anybody can tell, either made up completely or proposed on some completely unknown website that cannot be found by any search method and that has a readership of only the nypd, because not even the new york daily news who first made the claim actually saw it.

but really its just a step down from the usual things they say. according to the police and media before every protest we organize (yes, anarchists are in on the organization of most of these big protests, either through explicitly anarchist channels or working with the other groups in the various coalitions like united for peace and justice), anarchists are planning to do all sorts of nasty things. we have a history of throwing molotov cocktails at cops, of filling supersoakers with acid or urine, of breaking up the streets to hurl the concrete. and yet in the entire history of the current anticapitalist protest movement - start back in the early 90s or so - there is not one real case of anyone throwing a molotov and nobody arrested for it has made it past the first day of trial without having the charges dismissed. nobody has ever found a supersoaker filled with acid, nobody has been arrested for it, and nobody has been treated for acid burns. recently they decided that those old standbys weren't enough so they started just making up imaginary items for us to use - in miami we were supposed to be armed with 'ninja sticks', whatever those are.

the fact of the matter is that protest, even by anarchists, in the us is ridiculously peaceful even in the face of incredible repression and unprovoked attacks by police using wildly disproportionate force. if us cops were to ever try to police a protest in other countries, there would be a bloodbath and streets filled with dead protesters, because they would just open fire with live rounds within minutes.

first off, you have it backwards. in nearly every case, nobody does much of anything other than some minor politically motivated property destruction (more windows are broken by kids playing baseball than we can be blamed for ) or attempt to break through arbitrary police lines that declare that beyond this point there is no protest or free speech allowed, until after the police attack us. these cops are so hyped up by the propaganda and training videos that perpetuate these ridiculous charges against us that they over-react and start making 'pre-emptive arrests' and launching tear gas and rubber bullets or just making a baton charge at a crowd of people who are merely sitting in the street or a park. now if anybody else tried to do shit like that, you'd stand up and kick their ass. well, cops are no different in our eyes - if you attack us we will defend ourselves. which means barricades, throwing tear gas back, disrupting police organization, unarresting people, and creating diversions to allow others to retreat. if you check out the actual stories on what happens at protests and the follow up coverage - especially the various court cases we have going - you see that almost all of the time we are found to be mostly in the right and the cops are fined for their criminal behavior.



Side A> - - - - - - Truth - - - - - - - - <Side B

Side A> - - - - - - Truth - - - - - - - - <Side B

sometimes. in this case, the courts typically find in favor of my side. which is weird really, but we'll take what help we can get. the cops are so busy randomly arresting hundreds of people on fake charges that they usually can't get even one conviction out of it. and they violate their own procedures and the laws they are supposed to be upholding in order to do it. sad, really.

first off, you have it backwards. in nearly every case, nobody does much of anything other than some minor politically motivated property destruction (more windows are broken by kids playing baseball than we can be blamed for ) or attempt to break through arbitrary police lines that declare that beyond this point there is no protest or free speech allowed, until after the police attack us. these cops are so hyped up by the propaganda and training videos that perpetuate these ridiculous charges against us that they over-react and start making 'pre-emptive arrests' and launching tear gas and rubber bullets or just making a baton charge at a crowd of people who are merely sitting in the street or a park. now if anybody else tried to do shit like that, you'd stand up and kick their ass. well, cops are no different in our eyes - if you attack us we will defend ourselves. which means barricades, throwing tear gas back, disrupting police organization, unarresting people, and creating diversions to allow others to retreat. if you check out the actual stories on what happens at protests and the follow up coverage - especially the various court cases we have going - you see that almost all of the time we are found to be mostly in the right and the cops are fined for their criminal behavior.

second, the smelling like gunpowder thing was, as far as anybody can tell, either made up completely or proposed on some completely unknown website that cannot be found by any search method and that has a readership of only the nypd, because not even the new york daily news who first made the claim actually saw it.

but really its just a step down from the usual things they say. according to the police and media before every protest we organize (yes, anarchists are in on the organization of most of these big protests, either through explicitly anarchist channels or working with the other groups in the various coalitions like united for peace and justice), anarchists are planning to do all sorts of nasty things. we have a history of throwing molotov cocktails at cops, of filling supersoakers with acid or urine, of breaking up the streets to hurl the concrete. and yet in the entire history of the current anticapitalist protest movement - start back in the early 90s or so - there is not one real case of anyone throwing a molotov and nobody arrested for it has made it past the first day of trial without having the charges dismissed. nobody has ever found a supersoaker filled with acid, nobody has been arrested for it, and nobody has been treated for acid burns. recently they decided that those old standbys weren't enough so they started just making up imaginary items for us to use - in miami we were supposed to be armed with 'ninja sticks', whatever those are.

the fact of the matter is that protest, even by anarchists, in the us is ridiculously peaceful even in the face of incredible repression and unprovoked attacks by police using wildly disproportionate force. if us cops were to ever try to police a protest in other countries, there would be a bloodbath and streets filled with dead protesters, because they would just open fire with live rounds within minutes.

You forget that these are the Republicans billionaires who are ruining the world... ;-)

Remember,
William Henry Harrison won the 1840 election and died in office (pneumonia).
Abraham Lincoln won the 1860 election and died in office (shot in the head).
James Garfield won the 1880 election and died in office (shot in stomach, poor medical treatment with adverse effects).
William McKinley won the 1900 election and died in office (also shot).
Warren G. Harding won the 1920 election and died in office (food poisoning (?), pneumonia, heart attack).
Franklin Delano Roosevelt won the 1940 election and died in office (cerebral hemmorhage).
John F. Kennedy won the 1960 election and died in office (shot in the head).
Ronald Reagan won the 1980 election and was shot, but survived due to strong stomach muscles from working at the ranch, having turned to answer a reporters question just before the shooting, a Secret Service agent having just pulled press secretary Jim Brady over to answer the question (Brady was one inch taller than the agent and took a bullet in the temple), and the shooter not using a long enough barrel for his Devastator bullets.
George Bush won the 2000 election and is hated by assorted Democrats...

I was also semi-outraged at this until I did a tiny bit of research. The only suitable venue for this is the Sheep Meadow, and it's been Central Park's policy for some time now to deny permits for large gatherings.
http://www.centralpark2000.com/database/sheep_meadow.html I still don't like the idea of isolating protestors in 'free speech zones', but they don't have a legally protected right to pick their venue, only to express their views. Let them rent a big hall if they want to. Pity the RNC already has Madison Square Gardens reserved and paid for.

Right, I know. I think the only part of the situation that I was annoyed by was Bloomberg's proposed alternative; if he had just said "Sorry, nix on the Sheep Meadow," that would have been one thing. But he didn't - he said, "Well, we can't do the Sheep Meadow, so we're going to put you over next to the West Side Highway instead." And that's the part that just...no.

Actually, I think the group in question is still going to go ahead with the march, but just not the rally at the end. A friend of mine will be among them, and said he may personally just go on ahead to Central Park with his signs and such anyway. I'm actually toying with joining the march, but it is entirely dependant on my health (my back went out a couple weeks ago).

(Waving at Katganistan, clearly a fellow New Yorker)

sometimes. in this case, the courts typically find in favor of my side. which is weird really, but we'll take what help we can get. the cops are so busy randomly arresting hundreds of people on fake charges that they usually can't get even one conviction out of it. and they violate their own procedures and the laws they are supposed to be upholding in order to do it. sad, really.

its the same with most things

cops are just idiots...

if you have ever been searched for drugs you know what im talking about..


"Wheres the coke"
"what coke"
"we found your bong, now wheres the coke"
"What bong" (he was refering to a pipe)
"Dont play dumb. If you dont have coke how did you afford this car?"
"Its my dads car"
"If we search the trunk will there be a gun?"

the worst part is that the cops had illegally searched the car to find the marijuana pipe because they thought it was the car of some "other" people who had robbed the store earlier.

oh, btw, these were 18-19 yo's, no guns, not thugs or anything.

its the same with most things


oh, btw, these were 18-19 yo's, no guns, not thugs or anything.


Well at least cops are pulling over and accusing white people for once. Down w/ whitey.

Well at least cops are pulling over and accusing white people for once.

reminds me of the time i got pulled over for my car looking mexican. not cause i'd broken any laws per se.

Well, this is what we are saying when we tell the government that we should have the right to bear arms. If the government gets out of hand, we have to have options. I'm not saying open warfare with the government, but we have to keep them nervous.

If Bush wants to crush the basic freedoms he "stands" for, it will just go to further prove that politics is a cesspool, and that America has let it get too deep and too mucky. Two party system, jeez.

-Fury
Me thinks someone is confusing Nation States with RL.

Well at least cops are pulling over and accusing white people for once. Down w/ whitey.

thats the best part. The car was outside while we bought some stuff inside

Why can't a group of people with a similar political ideology get together without a bunch of people from the oppisite side of the spectrum yelling at them from a mile away?

Why can't a group of people with a similar political ideology get together without a bunch of people from the oppisite side of the spectrum yelling at them from a mile away?

depends on the group and the ideology, i'd think. people often get together without any yelling at all. but some groups deserve being yelled at and then some.