NationStates Jolt Archive

I simply cannot understand, I emphasize (sp) with many of you far-lefties who cannot understand my reasons for wanting to keep the death penalty, how any other type of economic principles work!

I mean, communism, why the hell would ANYONE want to work for someone other than themselves? If a capatilist wanted to do that, he'd donate or not cheat on his taxes.

Capatilism seems like the only sensible form of economy. Man works, man gets benefits from work, man is happy with benefits.

Not, man works, man's benefits are slimmed down to support everyone else, man gets pissed that his neighbor, other neighbor, in-law, former-teacher, local psycopath, local cop, etc. has HIS money.

who wants to know the best thing about this topic??

capitalism isnt a form of government

I simply cannot understand, I emphasize (sp) with many of you far-lefties who cannot understand my reasons for wanting to keep the death penalty, how any other type of economic principles work!

I mean, communism, why the hell would ANYONE want to work for someone other than themselves? If a capatilist wanted to do that, he'd donate or not cheat on his taxes.

Capatilism seems like the only sensible form of economy. Man works, man gets benefits from work, man is happy with benefits.

Not, man works, man's benefits are slimmed down to support everyone else, man gets pissed that his neighbor, other neighbor, in-law, former-teacher, local psycopath, local cop, etc. has HIS money.
Some people defy logic. I dont understand, but some could support Communism.

nor is this an original thread...but neither are any of the capitalism threads...however this one was posted when another capitalism thread was already floating: http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=351168

who wants to know the best thing about this topic??

capitalism isnt a form of government
OK, its a system of Economics that goes with a representative type of government.

who wants to know the best thing about this topic??

capitalism isnt a form of government
I just noticed that

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=6865763&postcount=4

nor is this an original thread...but neither are any of the capitalism threads...however this one was posted when another capitalism thread was already floating: http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=351168
meh, does ANYONE pay attention to other threads anymore?

Besides, I mistaked vantage with vintage

im thinking that its more "free market" than capitalism that makes for a good economy

if there were a true communist economy (where the workers own the means of production rather than state control) it could work well if there was a free market to go with

im thinking that its more "free market" than capitalism that makes for a good economy

if there were a true communist economy (where the workers own the means of production rather than state control) it could work well if there was a free market to go with
It's called stock.

Capatilism seems like the only sensible form of economy. Man works, man gets benefits from work, man is happy with benefits.

The reason why some people don't like capitalism is 'cause they believe that the bourgeois(ie) (those who own the means of production) will exploit the labor of the proletariat (the working class). While this held true in the case of Enron (which was a bit extreme to begin with), I don't believe that everybody who is a "bourgeois" in today's world is greedy and will exploit other people's work - however I do believe that some regulations in business should be put in place in order to prevent corruption

I mean, communism, why the hell would ANYONE want to work for someone other than themselves? If a capatilist wanted to do that, he'd donate or not cheat on his taxes.

You do work for someone other than yourself in capitalism. Haven't you heard of a boss?

the bourgeois(ie) (those who own the means of production)proletariat (the working class).
Got those backwards.

You do work for someone other than yourself in capitalism. Haven't you heard of a boss?
obviously, but your the one who makes the money that he pays you. And his job is employing you and taking in the benefits, as well as paying you for your work.

You do work for someone other than yourself in capitalism. Haven't you heard of a boss?
not to mention the local government, the state government, and then the federal government in addition to the corporation

at least in communism your guaranteed to be provided with necesities to live for your work, in capitalism its like work, give them company and government your life and time and get SHIT back for it

not to mention the local government, the state government, and then the federal government in addition to the corporation

at least in communism your guaranteed to be provided with necesities to live for your work, in capitalism its like work, give them company and government your life and time and get SHIT back for it
You must be in the wrong business. I've never been paid in shit.

You must be in the wrong business. I've never been paid in shit.
very clever, now that we are done with trying to be a a smartass, you dont get anything back for it

not to mention the local government, the state government, and then the federal government in addition to the corporation

at least in communism your guaranteed to be provided with necesities to live for your work, in capitalism its like work, give them company and government your life and time and get SHIT back for it
hmm, last time I checked, Shit was not a currency.

Anyways, capatilism provides you with that type of benefits to, althought small and exclusive. But really, if you can pay for it why do you need the government to support you? I really don't want to be paying for someone else's heart-attack surgery because he ate one-too-many twinkies.

My bank account would say otherwise.

hmm, last time I checked, Shit was not a currency.

Anyways, capatilism provides you with that type of benefits to, althought small and exclusive. But really, if you can pay for it why do you need the government to support you? I really don't want to be paying for someone else's heart-attack surgery because he ate one-too-many twinkies.
hey welcome to clue land, you do that anyway

hey welcome to clue land, you do that anyway
Not in the United States.

My bank account would say otherwise.
MONEY IS NOTHING, its a little coin or piece of paper that has a number on it and the big country beauracracy decided to say it means something so they can make you feel important whenever you have alot of it

not to mention the local government, the state government, and then the federal government in addition to the corporation


You make money for others - and if youre smart, people will also make money for you (through investments).


at least in communism your guaranteed to be provided with necesities to live for your work, in capitalism its like work, give them company and government your life and time and get SHIT back for it

Er...what?

MONEY IS NOTHING, its a little coin or piece of paper that has a number on it and the big country beauracracy decided to say it means something so they can make you feel important whenever you have alot of it
really? Then this computer must be worth nothing...

Currency is a means of exchange. It makes bartering more convenient. Instead of having to trade corn to someone who needs it and recieve tires and take the tires to someone else to get a cow and take the cow to someone else to get what you actually need, you can trade your corn in to whoever needs it for cash and put all the cash together and trade it in for something you actually need. It removes a lot of steps in the trading process, making life more convenient.

Not in the United States.
yes, you do. whenever some uninsured person needs a heart surgery or even when some one insured does

MONEY IS NOTHING, its a little coin or piece of paper that has a number on it and the big country beauracracy decided to say it means something so they can make you feel important whenever you have alot of it

Dang, and I thought it was to facilitate trade...

yes, you do. whenever some uninsured person needs a heart surgery or even when some one insured does
Yes, and then the medical bill comes home and....omigosh....what DO I DO?

(or your insurance rate goes up)

Yes, and then the medical bill comes home and....omigosh....what DO I DO?

(or your insurance rate goes up)
bingo

bingo
Thanks for responding to the defense for currency.

The thing that people are missing about Communism is that it:

1. Evens out the money ratio so that there are no rich or poor people, you are both the richest and the poorest person always.

2. If you are doing more work than someone else then you both are getting paid the same even though you are doing more than them. But if you start to dwindle and get sick then you still get the same amount.

It balances itself. The thing is that Communism is a great idea because YOU are one of the people who control how much money you get. The thing is, we are humans. We usually will try to do the leats amount of work possible so a Communist economy wouldn't work.

hmm..
So, despite the worthlessness of money according to communists, in a communist system, I control the amount of money I get? ...but if I earn the same amount of money as everyone else, then how would it matter how much I get? If everyone in America had an exact income of $10 then EVERYTHING would cost much, much less, but if everyone in American had an exact income of $1 million, everything would cost much, much more. There is no point in having lots of money if there is no inequality. The market prices will be adjusted automatically according to income.

I mean, communism, why the hell would ANYONE want to work for someone other than themselves?

well, you wouldn't work for anyone else - classless society = no owners. but anyways, working together almost always produces more stuff more efficiently than working seperately. so you work on the communal farm and have more than enough to eat even after you feed everyone else, and in turn you can have more than enough of everything else you need and want. if you go try to live on your own, you would only be scrapping by - so why do it?

Capatilism seems like the only sensible form of economy. Man works, man gets benefits from work, man is happy with benefits.

that ain't capitalism. capitalism is more like: person works, owner gets benefits from work, owner pays person according to their going price on the labor market (which has no connection to how much value their work actually was to the owner), person winds up giving nearly everything they got as wages to other owners (and even the same owner) in order to have a place to live and food to eat, person is happy with sitcoms and booze.

well, you wouldn't work for anyone else - classless society = no owners. but anyways, working together almost always produces more stuff more efficiently than working seperately. so you work on the communal farm and have more than enough to eat even after you feed everyone else, and in turn you can have more than enough of everything else you need and want. if you go try to live on your own, you would only be scrapping by - so why do it?


Collective farming...sure worked in the good ole USSR

well, you wouldn't work for anyone else - classless society = no owners. but anyways, working together almost always produces more stuff more efficiently than working seperately. so you work on the communal farm and have more than enough to eat even after you feed everyone else, and in turn you can have more than enough of everything else you need and want. if you go try to live on your own, you would only be scrapping by - so why do it?


Sounds more like specialization

that ain't capitalism. capitalism is more like: person works, owner gets benefits from work, owner pays person according to their going price on the labor market (which has no connection to how much value their work actually was to the owner), person winds up giving nearly everything they got as wages to other owners (and even the same owner) in order to have a place to live and food to eat, person is happy with sitcoms and booze.
odd, that's not how my life works, or that of my parents, or that of any of my friends or family...where do you live again?

odd, that's not how my life works, or that of my parents, or that of any of my friends or family...where do you live again?

in what way does your life differ from my description?

that ain't capitalism. capitalism is more like: person works, owner gets benefits from work, owner pays person according to their going price on the labor market (which has no connection to how much value their work actually was to the owner), person winds up giving nearly everything they got as wages to other owners (and even the same owner) in order to have a place to live and food to eat, person is happy with sitcoms and booze.
uhm...what good is just having money? The reason you get paid money is so that you can trade it for what you need. People have personal wants and needs and in capitalism, since your work is rewarded by trade notes, you can't trade for whatever it is you want...if you don't want to live in a house, you can use the extra money you saved their to trade for something else.

Collective farming...sure worked in the good ole USSR

collective farming without the capital letters works everywhere - all farms worked by multiple people will produce more than those worked alone, and people working together produces more than the total of each producing individually. this is fairly basic stuff here.

however, arbitrarily ordering people to work with this many other people on this amount of land and produce x amount of produce or you'll shoot them, and then taking everything they make and giving them next to nothing in return is bound to fail. which is why only idiotic authoritarians would even dream of doing it that way.

You do work for someone other than yourself in capitalism. Haven't you heard of a boss?
Haven't you heard of sole proprietorships?

that ain't capitalism. capitalism is more like: person works, owner gets benefits from work, owner pays person according to their going price on the labor market (which has no connection to how much value their work actually was to the owner), person winds up giving nearly everything they got as wages to other owners (and even the same owner) in order to have a place to live and food to eat, person is happy with sitcoms and booze.
Nah, that's what happens in socialism and interventionism. In capitalism, since there's no taxes or anything like that to steal the earnings of the workers, they have much more.

You still aren't getting the money concept! Money has nothing to do with whether a communist makes more or not. That all depends on how hard they work, how efficient they are, and how hard the people around them work.

OH, one thing that is interesting is this: When Lenin seized power from the transitory government and gave the means of production back to the people, the people (contrary to the bullshit everyone has about communists being lazy) worked harder than they ever had before. Most of the reason according to them? Now that they owned the means of production, they had more at stake in its success. For the first time in all of Russian history, they had hope for their own future. The same thing happened in Cuba, Congo, and Peru. That only ended when Castro started getting paranoid, and the American Government threw out Lumumba in Congo, and installed Pinochet in Peru.

BAAWA, you dumbass Libertarian. Leave this discussion, you muck up every one of them that you get into. Your arguments are crap and you insult those who don't believe what you believe.

It is foolish to believe that Capitalism provides good wages for the workers. All textile manufacturing capitalists have proven that they still believe in the rule of Iron wages. Just enough so that the people don't starve.

why the hell would ANYONE want to work for someone other than themselves?
Lots of people in capitalist economies work for corporations.

I think that the middle way is the best way. It is better than communism or pure capitalism. Look at Sweden. They have a free market economy but also a welfare state and progressive environmental policies. This gives a reasonable amount of equality in society and makes it a beautiful country.

uhm...what good is just having money? The reason you get paid money is so that you can trade it for what you need. People have personal wants and needs and in capitalism, since your work is rewarded by trade notes, you can't trade for whatever it is you want...if you don't want to live in a house, you can use the extra money you saved their to trade for something else.


this relates to what i said how?

collective farming without the capital letters...

Eh?

this relates to what i said how?
You said capitalism sucks because you have to spend everything you earned.

however, arbitrarily ordering people to work with this many other people on this amount of land and produce x amount of produce or you'll shoot them, and then taking everything they make and giving them next to nothing in return is bound to fail. which is why only idiotic authoritarians would even dream of doing it that way.

It's amazing that they failed to realize that.

They actually started to give them monetary incentives to produce more - during the 1970s...

Not, man works, man's benefits are slimmed down to support everyone else, man gets pissed that his neighbor, other neighbor, in-law, former-teacher, local psycopath, local cop, etc. has HIS money.

Now mind you before I start, I have only a basic knowledge of communism.

However if I'm not mistaken, communism would place people above money. Meaning it's more important for everyone to have enough to live on, then you have more than you need but have someone else starve.

That's fairly elementary altruism.

Capitalism falls more in line with egoism, which admittedly flows with the 'nature' of human beings. One could say communism attempts to swim against the river, while capitalism swims with it.

That's not even to say communism is inherently bad. But true altruists are few and far between, and it would be incredibly impractical to pull off.

collective farming only means farming collectively - as opposed to individually. a collective farm in the bolshevik sense is a ridiculous method of farming collectively, but it is certainly not the only one.

You said capitalism sucks because you have to spend everything you earned.

nah. my argument with capitalism (and any class society) is about who winds up holding all the cards and taking the lion's share of all the benefits. capitalism happens to be set up so that at the end of the day a tiny elite of owners wind up holding the vast majority of the wealth because the system is built to skew it in their direction.

...the loin's share...
heh heh