NationStates Jolt Archive

For all of you Kerry supporters answer me this: How can you say you trust a man when he can't even be honest about where he was on Christmas Eve of 1968? He wasn't in Cambodia then and he never was in Cambodia. Need some proof? The proof is he saw apocolypse now one too many times!

Christmas in Cambodia??? (http://www.drudgereport.com/dnc91.htm)

If he can't be honest with us about this, then how are we to believe anything from him with regards to his public life?

Btw why did Kerry try to buy up all of the copies of his book "The New Soldier"?

Where's that link supposed to go because I get nothing to do with what you said
:confused:

Btw why did Kerry try to buy up all of the copies of his book "The New Soldier"?
HannibalSmith is online now Report Bad Post
Where did you here that I never heard anything about that?:confused:

Hannibal, what evidence would accept to prove that Bush is more dishonest than Kerry? If there's no such evidence, then you're voting based on blind faith, aren't you?

Hannibal, what evidence would accept to prove that Bush is more dishonest than Kerry? If there's no such evidence, then you're voting based on blind faith, aren't you?


I'm not voting for Bush either, I just dislike Kerry for what he stands for, as a Vietnam Vet I have the right to call him on his claims.

why would i care what kerry was "really" doing when i know what bush was doing?

anything that might be wrong with kerrys military service is nothing compared to what is wrong with bush's and the rest of his cronies' service

not that i find anything about what happened during vietnam to be particularily relevant to today.

I'm not voting for Bush either, I just dislike Kerry for what he stands for, as a Vietnam Vet I have the right to call him on his claims.

Okay, forget I said voting.

What evidence would you accept that proves that Bush is more dishonest than Kerry?

It's a pretty simple question.

I hate them both. Bush's neoconservatism drives me off the deep end and Kerry's flip flopping convinces me he is not a genuine liberal

Where's that link supposed to go because I get nothing to do with what you said
:confused:

Where did you here that I never heard anything about that?:confused:

There you go sorry for the error.

I cannot speak for HannibalSmith, but I can make some assumptions.

I believe he mistyped the url. Cut and paste Hannibal, cut and paste.

THIS IS I BELIEVE THE LINK HE WAS LOOKING FOR. THERE IS NO "I" IN DRUDGE. (http://www.drudgereport.com/dnc91.htm)

Edit: Well one edit later and now I am the one who looks silly. He fixed his link. ;)

why would i care what kerry was "really" doing when i know what bush was doing?

anything that might be wrong with kerrys military service is nothing compared to what is wrong with bush's and the rest of his cronies' service

not that i find anything about what happened during vietnam to be particularily relevant to today.

Why do you people keep bringing up Bushs' service. He hasn't used his National Guard service as the cornerstone of his re-election. In every speech, Kerry tells you the he served in Vietnam.

I thought military service didn't matter anymore.

I cannot speak for HannibalSmith, but I can make some assumptions.

I believe he mistyped the url. Cut and paste Hannibal, cut and paste.

THIS IS I BELIEVE THE LINK HE WAS LOOKING FOR. THERE IS NO "I" IN DRUDGE. (http://www.drudgereport.com/dnc91.htm)

Thank you lesson well learned, but alas you can't teach an old dog new tricks.

Why do you people keep bringing up Bushs' service. He hasn't used his National Guard service as the cornerstone of his re-election. In every speech, Kerry tells you the he served in Vietnam.

I thought military service didn't matter anymore.

i believe i SAID that i dont much care what happened in vietnam

he CAN'T use his NG service as the cornerstone of his reelection now can he?

"my daddy got me into the NG so i could avoid vietnam and spend my time partying" won't get many votes.

i bring it up because i cant understand why anyone would be upset about kerry when bush is worse (in this respect)

In every speech Kerry tells you he served in Vietnam? could you please get me transcripts?

Why do you people keep bringing up Bushs' service. He hasn't used his National Guard service as the cornerstone of his re-election. In every speech, Kerry tells you the he served in Vietnam.

In the real world (the world in which Matt Drudge is not a reliable source, and the world in which the Swifties have been debunked soundly), Bush is running against Kerry. If Kerry's actions in 35 years ago are important, aren't Bush's actions also important?

The Financial Times reported in December of 2003 that Bush's campaign was going to attack Kerry on his Vietnam service. Kerry barely mentions vietnam in his speeches; the focus on that is coming from the attack ads, funded by republicans, and produced by the people who went after Dukakis. Kerry tried to get out ahead of an attack that he knew was coming, and now he's being attacked for bringing it up. Bush isn't running on his record - he's trying to drive up Kerry's negatives while avoiding any substantive discussion of his actions during these last four years.

Yes, Kerry was mistaken about Christmas in Cambodia. yes, it was a stupid thing to say, and repeating it didn't help. But mentioning Nixon is a pretty clear indication that he didn't intentionally fabricate it - and there is evidence that Kerry was in Cambodia in January and February of 1969. (There's certainly more evidence he was than that he wasn't.) Other vets have admitted unofficial trips into Cambodia without being court-martialed. The swift boats were at Sa Dec because of the access to the delta and Cambodia.

In the real world - the world in which you created this thread as a new flood of evidence was posted in the swift boat thread debunking them - comparing Bush and Kerry is a way to decide which one to vote for (or vote against).

Edit - those who are attacking Kerry have been proved wrong on many more things than Kerry has.

In the real world (the world in which Matt Drudge is not a reliable source, and the world in which the Swifties have been debunked soundly

Sorry but Drudge is very reliable, many news sources left and right alike run with some of his stories. Remember that whole Monicagate thing. That story was broken by Drudge.

This is bad evidence. It's just the authors of a book.


And I would take a four time murderer over Bush.

"my daddy got me into the NG so i could avoid vietnam and spend my time partying" won't get many votes.

Hrm? Bush piloted a fighter known as the F-102 and did in fact fly patrols while the nation was under a state of alert inspired by the soviets. He also volunteered for Palace Alert, a doomed effort to deploy national gaurd airforces to Vietnam. He didnt have the experience needed to get in. The reason for his discharge amounts to the fact that the aircraft he was trained to pilot was no longer useful to the NG.

The Financial Times reported in December of 2003 that Bush's campaign was going to attack Kerry on his Vietnam service. Kerry barely mentions vietnam in his speeches; the focus on that is coming from the attack ads, funded by republicans, and produced by the people who went after Dukakis.

I guess he barely mentioned his Vietnam service in his acceptence speech at the DNC. He might of though as he did not talk about his years in the senate.

Any way why does any of this have to do with how good a president they are/could be?

Any way why does any of this have to do with how good a president they are/could be?


Once a liar always a liar.

I guess he barely mentioned his Vietnam service in his acceptence speech at the DNC. He might of though as he did not talk about his years in the senate.

In the senate, Kerry led the investigation of BCCI, a bank that laundered money for terrorists. While in the senate, Kerry has done more to really combat terrorism than Bush has in the presidency.

Drudge may have broken Monica, but he also "broke" the Kerry intern story, which was total BS. He claimed that Sydney Blumenthal was a wife-beater. Drudge posts at least twice as many bogus stories as real ones, hence "not reliable".

It is true that the mainstream media runs sources sourced only to drudge - but that only shows how lazy the mainstream media is, and how bogus their attacks on Internet news are.

Why is Kerry's Vietnam experience so important? Perhaps because Kerry brings it up. Why can't Kerry bring up something more important, like his career in the U.S. Senate? Perhaps because it is harder to lie about the recent past than it is about the not so recent past? Like that claim that Kerry was in charge of a committee. (It was "a" Kerry but not John Kerry.)

These swift boat vets against Kerry have been more then debunked on the main stream media. As far as I'm concerned, they have NO evidence to back up their claims in fact quite a few of them praised Kerry's record just a few short years ago. O'Neil wasn't there, so he can't say sheet! They've been debunked. I'd offer HS a blindfold, but I see he's brought his own. Nuff said!

Hrm? Bush piloted a fighter known as the F-102 and did in fact fly patrols while the nation was under a state of alert inspired by the soviets. He also volunteered for Palace Alert, a doomed effort to deploy national gaurd airforces to Vietnam. He didnt have the experience needed to get in. The reason for his discharge amounts to the fact that the aircraft he was trained to pilot was no longer useful to the NG.

LOL, you're serious too right? You believe that? Or....you could look at Bush's military records that show he specifically marked that he would not volunteer to serve overseas.

His discharge had nothing to do with the fact that his plane was no longer in service. Trust me on this...the military doesn't say to someone that they can leave because they are no longer useful. That just doesn't happen.

And he didn't fly because he refused to take the medical exam, which moved his flight status to suspended. This is all in public record. Its one of the few things in Bush's military record that has been released.

why can't john kerry just bring up the last 4 years? he doesn't need to attack bush on anything, bush does that just fine on his own.

Once a liar always a liar.

So you believe Larry Thurlow because.....

Hrm? Bush piloted a fighter known as the F-102 and did in fact fly patrols while the nation was under a state of alert inspired by the soviets. He also volunteered for Palace Alert, a doomed effort to deploy national gaurd airforces to Vietnam. He didnt have the experience needed to get in. The reason for his discharge amounts to the fact that the aircraft he was trained to pilot was no longer useful to the NG.

when my brother in law was in the navy during vietnam he too volunteered for duty in vietnam

knowing full well that as a cryptologist he wasnt eligible to go.

bush didnt fly the same kind of plane that was used in vietnam. he wasnt eligible to go. he was in the NG to avoid going.

now dont get me wrong, i cant say as i ever met anyone in real life who wanted to go to vietnam (although i have heard that there were some early on who wanted to go) everyone ive ever known personally who went, went because they couldnt get out of it.

i dont blame anyone for trying to get out of going to vietnam. i dont find bush's way of avoiding it to be dishonorable. it was better than running to canada.

all im saying is that kerry VOLUNTEERED. he didnt have to go any more than bush did. he went, bush didnt. if vietnam is important to you, (as it is not to me) that should mean something.

You know, after 30 years, even the Vietnamese stopped caring.

Why is Kerry's Vietnam experience so important? Perhaps because Kerry brings it up. Why can't Kerry bring up something more important, like his career in the U.S. Senate? Perhaps because it is harder to lie about the recent past than it is about the not so recent past? Like that claim that Kerry was in charge of a committee. (It was "a" Kerry but not John Kerry.)

Good point. It is funny that Kerry was wrong about this one. But he was close as it was Bob Kerrey.

Can this man be honest on one thing.

Hrm? Bush piloted a fighter known as the F-102 and did in fact fly patrols while the nation was under a state of alert inspired by the soviets. He also volunteered for Palace Alert, a doomed effort to deploy national gaurd airforces to Vietnam. He didnt have the experience needed to get in. The reason for his discharge amounts to the fact that the aircraft he was trained to pilot was no longer useful to the NG.

You're starting off correct, but then going off into BS territory.

Bush did volunteer for palace alert - weeks before the program closed down, and without the experience to get in. You don't think he knew that?

Where you're completely wrong is the reason for the discharge; he got that to go to Harvard. After skipping out on his flight physicals - hence wasting all the $$ the government put into training him - and heading to Alabama to drink, while occasionally working on a senatorial campaign. Oh, and it's also public record that Bush asked to be transferred, was turned down, and went anyway.

when my brother in law was in the navy during vietnam he too volunteered for duty in vietnam

knowing full well that as a cryptologist he wasnt eligible to go.

bush didnt fly the same kind of plane that was used in vietnam. he wasnt eligible to go. he was in the NG to avoid going.

now dont get me wrong, i cant say as i ever met anyone in real life who wanted to go to vietnam (although i have heard that there were some early on who wanted to go) everyone ive ever known personally who went, went because they couldnt get out of it.

i dont blame anyone for trying to get out of going to vietnam. i dont find bush's way of avoiding it to be dishonorable. it was better than running to canada.

all im saying is that kerry VOLUNTEERED. he didnt have to go any more than bush did. he went, bush didnt. if vietnam is important to you, (as it is not to me) that should mean something.

I actually wanted to go as I was a graduate of the AFA. I served from 72-74.

Okay, forget I said voting.

What evidence would you accept that proves that Bush is more dishonest than Kerry?

It's a pretty simple question.


I can answer that for you.

The site below is run by a non-partisan organization dedicated to revealing the media spin produced by both sides of this election.
According to them, and most other groups like them, Bush is the president that distorts the most amount of truth, ever.


www.spinsanity.org

Kerry and Kerrey? (http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/news/politics/9425162.htm)

I guess if you believe a lie to be true then that makes it true!

Once a liar always a liar.

so its more important to you that kerry "lied" about being in cambodia than it is that bush lied to get us into iraq?

we have over 1000 men and women dead and thousands more maimed because bush lied. i would never vote for him even if kerry claimed to have slept with pol pot in 1969

You know what i think? I think neither of them deserve to be in office. Bush, well, you all know why, and kerry because first, he joined in in making bush look like the faget he is, second, he supports abortion, third, after watching people make fun of bush, he gets up on stage, and congradulates the people making fun of bush, saying " You are doing your american duty." And he salutes them. PLUS, he doesn't even SALUTE RIGHT!( just wanted to add that one in)

Can this man be honest on one thing.

Kerry blamed an aide for this mistake on his website - I challenge you to find a speech that Kerry made where he made this claim. Or is Kerry being held to a standard where he lies if anyone associated with him says anything incorrect, but Bush can pull stuff IAEA reports and economic data and proof of WMDs out of his rectum without being called to account?

Bonus prize - what bills did Dick Cheney sponsor during his time in Congress?

I actually wanted to go as I was a graduate of the AFA. I served from 72-74.
i dont know you

For all of you Kerry supporters answer me this: How can you say you trust a man when he can't even be honest about where he was on Christmas Eve of 1968? He wasn't in Cambodia then and he never was in Cambodia. Need some proof? The proof is he saw apocolypse now one too many times!

Christmas in Cambodia??? (http://www.drudgereport.com/dnc91.htm)

If he can't be honest with us about this, then how are we to believe anything from him with regards to his public life?

Btw why did Kerry try to buy up all of the copies of his book "The New Soldier"?

Hes better than Bush

so its more important to you that kerry "lied" about being in cambodia than it is that bush lied to get us into iraq?

we have over 1000 men and women dead and thousands more maimed because bush lied. i would never vote for him even if kerry claimed to have slept with pol pot in 1969

Don't forget Kerry supported us going over there. Then when it became popular to be against it, he changed his view. What kind of a man does this?

Once a liar always a liar.

So it would be a logical guess that you never vote since everybody lies?

Don't forget Kerry supported us going over there. Then when it became popular to be against it, he changed his view. What kind of a man does this?

What kind of a man leads the charge in the first place? Yes, I hear you saying you're not for Bush either, but as it stands that Bush or Kerry will win, one must ask this of both candidates.

Don't forget Kerry supported us going over there. Then when it became popular to be against it, he changed his view. What kind of a man does this?

You don't think that maybe - just maybe - his experiences there caused him to change his mind? Obvously not, because you're doing a good job of ignoring any information that doesn't suit you.

Look at how far John O'Neill went just by sucking up to Nixon - imagine how far Kerry could have gone as a Republican willing to toady up to power and suppress his conscience.

First off, HannibalSmith, about 80% of the country supported anything by the administration as a way to relieve anger from 9-11, PLUS he lied about the issue, so that adds to it. Think about it first, THEN speak.

For all of you Kerry supporters answer me this: How can you say you trust a man when he can't even be honest about where he was on Christmas Eve of 1968? He wasn't in Cambodia then and he never was in Cambodia. Need some proof? The proof is he saw apocolypse now one too many times!


oh yeah now that ive posted way too many times in this thread i just wanted to remind everyone

NEVER TRUST A POLITICIAN

there is good reason for them to be held in lower regard than used car salesmen.

oh yeah now that ive posted way too many times in this thread i just wanted to remind everyone

NEVER TRUST A POLITICIAN

there is good reason for them to be held in lower regard than used car salesmen.

My mayor is a good politician. One of the best people I know.

It is true some still hold good values.

Don't forget Kerry supported us going over there. Then when it became popular to be against it, he changed his view. What kind of a man does this?

Claimed he was against nation building while running for election in 2000, now the US is stuck doing just that, in not one, but two nations....

Stated that gay marriage should be an issue left to the states, and now he thinks it needs a constitutional ban...

Initially oppossed a Department of Homeland Security...and now, well..you already know.

What kind of man does this?

(Correct answer for all 3 = GW Bush)

Don't forget the State of the Union address where he talked about the alternative fuels and all the funding they were going to get....which never happened.

Once a liar always a liar.
I lied once so dont believe anything I say has anyone not lied ever dont lie to me now!:)

well, i personally cant wait until the election becuase bush is just finishing what his father started and he's destroying the USA!!! and he's sending my step-dad to war in Iraq... VOTE KERRY!

Once a liar always a liar.

Sounds likes a politician.

Once a liar always a liar.

Isn't that what a president is supposed to do?

President Nation 1: "We will open our auto market if you drop the yak fur import barriers"
President Nation 2: "Sure, consider it done!"

You know, after 30 years, even the Vietnamese stopped caring.

And surprising many don't hold grudges either.

Well if you think Kerry will make us safer, not increase your taxes dramatically, and will pull us out of Iraq quick, then vote for him. I'll be hiding in my underground bunker.

That makes me a nutcase. ;)

well, i personally cant wait until the election becuase bush is just finishing what his father started and he's destroying the USA!!! and he's sending my step-dad to war in Iraq... VOTE KERRY!

Well if your step dad didn't want to go to war then why join up in the first place. Boo Hoo!! :(

Where are you getting these bits of information? All data I have seen regarding John Kerry's war record suggest he was a decent, brave officer. Anyone who went over into Nam deserves my respect, and yours too. Kerry's story has been validated by a Washington Post investigation, an on-scene U.S. Army Ranger, and a former Secretary of the Navy. How much MORE validation do you require before we can say with reasonable certainty that John Kerry is telling the truth?

Well if your step dad didn't want to go to war then why join up in the first place. Boo Hoo!! :(

Nice :rolleyes:

No where in his post said his step-dad didn't want to fight.

I bet your kids were happy you were in country....

Where are you getting these bits of information? All data I have seen regarding John Kerry's war record suggest he was a decent, brave officer. Anyone who went over into Nam deserves my respect, and yours too. Kerry's story has been validated by a Washington Post investigation, an on-scene U.S. Army Ranger, and a former Secretary of the Navy. How much MORE validation do you require before we can say with reasonable certainty that John Kerry is telling the truth?

I think he hangs out on the swiftvets for "truth" board.....

Don't forget Kerry supported us going over there. Then when it became popular to be against it, he changed his view. What kind of a man does this?The kind who FINDS OUT HE'S BEEN LIED TO.

Are you going to sit way over there and tell me that, if you made a decision based on a specific set of reported "facts" and those "facts" turned out to be LIES, you wouldn't ever change your mind?

I feel sorry for you. I feel even sorrier for anyone who depends on you.

Nice :rolleyes:

No where in his post said his step-dad didn't want to fight.

I bet your kids were happy you were in country....

Well they didn't know any better as they were 2 and 1 years old when I left for Vietnam.

The kind who FINDS OUT HE'S BEEN LIED TO.

Are you going to sit way over there and tell me that, if you made a decision based on a specific set of reported "facts" and those "facts" turned out to be LIES, you wouldn't ever change your mind?

John Kerry wouldn't.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1856&ncid=1856&e=15&u=/cpress/20040810/ca_pr_on_wo/kerry

Last Friday, Bush challenged Kerry to answer yes-or-know to the question of whether he would have supported the invasion of Iraq "knowing what we know now" about the failure to find weapons of mass destruction.


"I have given my answer. We did the right thing and the world is better off for it," the president said.


In response, Kerry said, "Yes, I would have voted for the authority. I believe it was the right authority for a president to have."
Same thing :
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/09/kerry.iraq/
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0%2C2933%2C128495%2C00.html
http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/news/local/9361018.htm

The kind who FINDS OUT HE'S BEEN LIED TO.

Are you going to sit way over there and tell me that, if you made a decision based on a specific set of reported "facts" and those "facts" turned out to be LIES, you wouldn't ever change your mind?

I feel sorry for you. I feel even sorrier for anyone who depends on you.

Well quiz kid when he saw the same information that Bush saw, he believed it. As did every other person who thought there were WMDS. The President was given false intel, which does not make him a lier. By the time the truth came out it was a little late to take back what had happened. So are you going to sit there and tell me that if you were the President and saw the intel, that you would have gone to war, then be against it when you get the true story? You have to move forward when there is a war, you can't always back track your way out of it.

Don't feel sorry for me, I did quite well for myself and my family. Take care of your own, I feel sorry for anyone who depends on you what with your liberal views.

John Kerry wouldn't.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1856&ncid=1856&e=15&u=/cpress/20040810/ca_pr_on_wo/kerry


Same thing :
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/09/kerry.iraq/
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0%2C2933%2C128495%2C00.html
http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/news/local/9361018.htm

This is to be expected from a waffler like Kerry. Need some syrup with those?

Well quiz kid when he saw the same information that Bush saw, he believed it. As did every other person who thought there were WMDS. The President was given false intel, which does not make him a lier. By the time the truth came out it was a little late to take back what had happened. So are you going to sit there and tell me that if you were the President and saw the intel, that you would have gone to war, then be against it when you get the true story? You have to move forward when there is a war, you can't always back track your way out of it.


Did they ever release the Presidential Daily Briefs? That was missing from the report and it even said it casts doubt on the whole analysis as we have to take the President for his word....

Having lived in the Intel world; I can tell you it is a convient scape goat. You can't really defend yourself to public claim as you can't talk about your "efforts" to secure the data.

here's an interesting article:

You can run but you can't hide! (http://www.useless-knowledge.com/articles/apr/aug228.html)

Well if you think Kerry will make us safer, not increase your taxes dramatically, and will pull us out of Iraq quick, then vote for him. I'll be hiding in my underground bunker.

That makes me a nutcase. ;)

And you can prove that Bush has made us any safer? After 4 years of Bush, I do know my salary isn't keeping up with inflation and increased costs of living (and I work in a state lab that is expanding to cover bioterrorism response and analysis), and I don't expect either Bush or Kerry to pull us out of Iraq quick (though I blame Bush for getting us into that mess in the first place).

You seem quick to point out plenty of perceived flaws with Kerry as a candidate yet completely ignoring the same flaws that are mirrored in Bush....

Well quiz kid when he saw the same information that Bush saw, he believed it. As did every other person who thought there were WMDS. The President was given false intel, which does not make him a lier. By the time the truth came out it was a little late to take back what had happened. So are you going to sit there and tell me that if you were the President and saw the intel, that you would have gone to war, then be against it when you get the true story? You have to move forward when there is a war, you can't always back track your way out of it.

im sick of your pure idiotic babbling, yeah, the president was given false intel, but guess where the buck stops? at the presidents desk. he REFUSES to take responsibility for ANYTHING and not only that but he and cheney CONTINUE to reassert the same false evidence after it has been stated as false, like some how reiterating it makes it any truer


Don't feel sorry for me, I did quite well for myself and my family. Take care of your own, I feel sorry for anyone who depends on you what with your liberal views.
i feel sorry for your family, having to live with such a close minded, blind, ignorant person obsessed with the right wing to the point of starting a cult dedicated to the republicans with bush as the god

here's an interesting article:

You can run but you can't hide! (http://www.useless-knowledge.com/articles/apr/aug228.html)

It is interesting but it is not writen well. Many implied meaning without hard evidence.

The Thurlow argument only adds to Thurlows lack of creditibily.

"When the chips were down, you couldn't count on John Kerry" (might not be exact).

How many commanders are going to trust such men with anything? If Kerry was a bad as he has said, he would not have let him handle official reports of actions.

And you can prove that Bush has made us any safer? After 4 years of Bush, I do know my salary isn't keeping up with inflation and increased costs of living (and I work in a state lab that is expanding to cover bioterrorism response and analysis), and I don't expect either Bush or Kerry to pull us out of Iraq quick (though I blame Bush for getting us into that mess in the first place).

You seem quick to point out plenty of perceived flaws with Kerry as a candidate yet completely ignoring the same flaws that are mirrored in Bush....

I'm not condeming Bush simply cause I'm talking about Kerry. I've made more money now then I did under the previous Presidents.

BTW Have any airplanes slammed into our buildings here since 911, or bombings or chemical or bio attacks here on American soil. I don't recall any but that one little anthrax thingie.

im sick of your pure idiotic babbling, yeah, the president was given false intel, but guess where the buck stops? at the presidents desk. he REFUSES to take responsibility for ANYTHING and not only that but he and cheney CONTINUE to reassert the same false evidence after it has been stated as false, like some how reiterating it makes it any truer



i feel sorry for your family, having to live with such a close minded, blind, ignorant person obsessed with the right wing to the point of starting a cult dedicated to the republicans with bush as the god

What if they do find WMD's? You'll probably be the first to say it was set up.

I'm laughing at you right now. Why are you getting frustrated over what some guy on the internet is typing. I feel sorry for you, I really do. BTW why should he admit anything, if he did you guys would just attack him some more.

I'm right wing but not a Republican. Maybe when you grow up you'll see the errors of being too much of a liberal. Maybe when you grow up and have some real responsibility you'll learn to be a free thinker, not some programmed liberal retard.

BTW Have any airplanes slammed into our buildings here since 911, or bombings or chemical or bio attacks here on American soil. I don't recall any but that one little anthrax thingie.
By that measure, Herbert Hoover was the greatest president of modern history.

What if they do find WMD's? You'll probably be the first to say it was set up.

I'm laughing at you right now. Why are you getting frustrated over what some guy on the internet is typing. I feel sorry for you, I really do. BTW why should he admit anything, if he did you guys would just attack him some more.

I'm right wing but not a Republican. Maybe when you grow up you'll see the errors of being too much of a liberal. Maybe when you grow up and have some real responsibility you'll learn to be a free thinker, not some programmed liberal retard.
yeah try some of that "free thinking" some time, maybe while taking breaks from bowing to the republicans and swallowing every piece of propagandist crap they feed you

It's interesting that people already know that Kerry will be a bad president. Hmm...last time I checked, the scientific method is rarely inaccurate...

Of course, that also proves to be athiestic more often than not...

...science that is...

it come down to Kerry being a pinko commie and Bush not being one :cool:

it come down to Kerry being a pinko commie and Bush not being one :cool:
Well, since "pinko commie" is just another word for "liberal" or "Democrat" in the Republican's thesuarus, then I don't see a problem with that honestly.

It's not bad enough to think of a Kerry Presidency but to also think we'll have a freaking ambulance chaser in a high position as well. He talked to the dead you know!

Crossing Over (http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/images/blpic-edwardscrossingover2.htm)

hahaha!! (http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/images/blpic-edwardssue.htm)

Hannibal, it's good to know you're the kind of person who finds it funny when a little girl's intestines get sucked out.

Hannibal, it's good to know you're the kind of person who finds it funny when a little girl's intestines get sucked out.

Well there is humor in everything you know. But it was funnier when Edwards conjured up the spirits to win big cash settlements.

What if they do find WMD's? You'll probably be the first to say it was set up.

If they do find WMDs there now, chances are that it will have been set up. It's unlikely to happen (whether set up or not), but it would represent an incredible coup for the Bush campaign.

Maybe when you grow up you'll see the errors of being too much of a liberal. Maybe when you grow up and have some real responsibility you'll learn to be a free thinker, not some programmed liberal retard.

Maybe when he grows up he'll have the good sense to be a more like you? Pffft. If you thought a little bit more about America, you'd realize that our country doesn't work with everybody on the same side. It's just human nature. Incidentally, responsibility seldom does much to free one's thoughts, rather, it tends to align them with one's immediate reality (which doesn't always have a lot to do with everyone's immediate realities, and seldom has anything at all to do with the future). It's hard to say right now which candidate would be better for our country, but don't try to errect a pedestal for one based on stupid, misleading, and insulting pseudo-arguments.

It's not bad enough to think of a Kerry Presidency but to also think we'll have a freaking ambulance chaser in a high position as well. He talked to the dead you know!

Crossing Over (http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/images/blpic-edwardscrossingover2.htm)

hahaha!! (http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/images/blpic-edwardssue.htm)
lets try

When to use terror alerts (:http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/images/blbushterroralertguide.htm)

pick for hannibal's republican culr (http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/images/blbushlord.htm)

Is there any point in this topic?We all know Kerry will win as I have been reliably informed that on only 2 occaisions has the shorter of the main candidates won the presedential election.

Is there any point in this topic?We all know Kerry will win as I have been reliably informed that on only 2 occaisions has the shorter of the main candidates won the presedential election.
ohmygod i had forgotten that
PHEW
now i can start sleeping through the night again

Who cares they're all the same it doesn't make a diffrence. they both will act the same but in diffrent issues.No da.Kerry lies bush lies too. :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

Well, what about Bush, he snuck out of the army too didnt he? not that kerry is any better. GO RALPH NADER!
:confused: :sniper:
^^We must not misunderestimate the independent parties

Well...the Air National Guard actually...

And if you compare the two military records of the two men, and the fact that nobody denies that Kerry actually went to Vietnam, it seems pointless to argue about whether or not he did whatever in Vietnam. People all will have their own versions of what happened 30 years ago, but it's pretty black and white that Kerry went and Bush went AWOL.

For those of you wondering whom to trust, I have a recommendation.

An editor of the Chicago Tribune is the only other swift boat officer who was with Kerry during the disputed silver star incident. His article ran in the Chicago Tribune on Sunday. Please read it, and come to your own conclusions.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/specials/elections/chi-0408220343aug22,1,2916896.story?coll=chi-electionsprint-hed

Btw why did Kerry try to buy up all of the copies of his book "The New Soldier"?

You believe the Drudge Report .... why?

For those of you wondering whom to trust, I have a recommendation.

An editor of the Chicago Tribune is the only other swift boat officer who was with Kerry during the disputed silver star incident. His article ran in the Chicago Tribune on Sunday. Please read it, and come to your own conclusions.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/specials/elections/chi-0408220343aug22,1,2916896.story?coll=chi-electionsprint-hed
I'd have to login so I can't yet read it.

How about a summary till some of us get a login pass.

Enough with the fucking "Kerry military record" threads. I've had enough, and it really doesn't matter. It was 35 years ago.

In every speech Kerry tells you he served in Vietnam? could you please get me transcripts?
I don't think trascripts are necessary. I hope Kerry wins, but it can't really be denied that he often mentions his Vietnam service.

I'm not condeming Bush simply cause I'm talking about Kerry.

BTW Have any airplanes slammed into our buildings here since 911, or bombings or chemical or bio attacks here on American soil. I don't recall any but that one little anthrax thingie.

Interesting you are so busy talking negatives about Kerry despite Bush being guilty of the same things...

Wasn't it you who bashed Kerry, something like once a liar, always a liar? And I suppose Bush has never told a lie in his life....

Wasn't it you who said Kerry waffles? Obviously you see this as a bad trait in a candidate. Do you really want me to post a list of all the issues Bush has flip flopped on in just his 4 years in office?

BTW, The only time I can recall any airplanes slamming into buildings was on Bush's watch...but regardless, your assumption that America is safer simply because it hasn't happened again since is asinine at best.

BTW, The only time I can recall any airplanes slamming into buildings was on Bush's watch...but regardless, your assumption that America is safer simply because it hasn't happened again since is asinine at best.

Congratulations for winning the retard of the year award. Please jump off the nearest cliff to claim your prize.

Do you honestly think that the twin towers would still be here if Gore had won? Not a chance. If you expect to be a master at your job within just a few months of joining, especially in the highest office in the nation, you need to go back to working the fry machine at Wendy's.

Lets all live in your world were super Bush jumps up and swats terrorist planes down with his bare hands.

Interesting you are so busy talking negatives about Kerry despite Bush being guilty of the same things...

Wasn't it you who bashed Kerry, something like once a liar, always a liar? And I suppose Bush has never told a lie in his life....

Wasn't it you who said Kerry waffles? Obviously you see this as a bad trait in a candidate. Do you really want me to post a list of all the issues Bush has flip flopped on in just his 4 years in office?

BTW, The only time I can recall any airplanes slamming into buildings was on Bush's watch...but regardless, your assumption that America is safer simply because it hasn't happened again since is asinine at best.

Assinine no, it is the truth, there haven't been any terrorist attacks here since 911. So that would make us safer.

I only condemn him so much because he is the biggest fraud ever, and a traitor to vets. He has nothing to run on so he resorts to Vietnam, which isn't really a good idea because he pissed off quite a few of us. I've seriously disliked him since 71 and am amazed that he is in the position where he is. Makes you kind of think what the people in his home state were thinking. But then again, they keep reelecting that murderer Ted "One More For the Road" Kennedy.

lets try

When to use terror alerts (:http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/images/blbushterroralertguide.htm)

pick for hannibal's republican culr (http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/images/blbushlord.htm)


Nice try chess you weirdo, next time make sure all of your links work. Sorry but I only have one messiah and that is Jesus (the original rockstar). I hope you like hell, flit boy.

Assinine no, it is the truth, there haven't been any terrorist attacks here since 911. So that would make us safer.
According to recent chatter, there is another attack being planned by Al-Queda, and there has been an increase in terrorist attacks since the invasion of Iraq. There have been 3 bombings incidents involving US citizens in Saudi Arabia alone. How do you figure America is safer?

According to recent chatter, there is another attack being planned by Al-Queda, and there has been an increase in terrorist attacks since the invasion of Iraq. There have been 3 bombings incidents involving US citizens in Saudi Arabia alone. How do you figure America is safer?

one way we're safer, the avg citizen is now more aware.

one way we're safer, the avg citizen is now more aware.

Exactly!

We need to take this guy out and quick.

Nice teeth!!! :p

Choppers of a Muslim Extremist (http://schnittshow.com/alsadrteeth.html)

His momma should have made him floss.

They need to pump freaking gas in that hold up of theirs. Then blow them away as they run out.

one way we're safer, the avg citizen is now more aware.
Being more aware does not make the US safer and you know it. Besides, most people have stated on these boards that they rarely do anything different in their day to day living when the alert level is raised.

Being more aware does not make the US safer and you know it. Besides, most people have stated on these boards that they rarely do anything different in their day to day living when the alert level is raised.

The average Joe's don't go on these boards. Out of all of the US' population how many people visit these websites and make posts.

Heck I live sort of near the US-Canada boarder and I always keep a look out for people who sneak across the boarder and for those who are out of place and not tourists. I pack heat with me whenever I go out into my ranch, just in case of middle eastern males sneaking across the boarder.

Being more aware does not make the US safer and you know it. Besides, most people have stated on these boards that they rarely do anything different in their day to day living when the alert level is raised.

Why did the terrorists succeed like they did on 9/11? Because prior to that time all hijackings resulted in a scenario "take me to X" and usually ended without bloodshed. No one (avg citizen types) even felt what happened was possible on our own soil.

We have been awakened. Plots have been foiled vs LAX and the space needle. Shoe bomber anyone? Of course we're safer... we're just not safe. And as long as there are people willing to die to inflict terror, we never will be.

JOB APPLICATION > > > > > >
NAME: John Kerry > > > > > >
RESIDENCE: 7 mansions, including Washington, DC, worth multi-millions. > > > > > >
EDUCATION AND EXPERIENCE: > > > > > > > > > > > > Law Enforcement. I voted to cut every law enforcement, CIA and defense bill in my career as a US Senator. I ordered Boston to remove a fire hydrant which I considered unsightly, in front of my mansion, thereby endangering my neighbors in the event of fire. > > > > > >
MILITARY: > > > I used three minor injuries to get an early discharge from the military and service in Vietnam (as documented by the attending doctor). I then returned to the US, joined Jane Fonda in protesting the war, and insulted returning Vietnam vets, claiming they committed atrocities and were baby killers. I threw my medals, ribbons, or something away in protest. Or did I? My book; Vietnam Veterans Against the War: The New Soldier shows how I truly feel about the military. I deplore the military! > > > > > >
COLLEGE: > > > I graduated from Yale University with a low C average. Unlike my counterpart George Bush, I have no higher education and did not get admitted to Harvard nor graduate with an M.B.A > > > > > >
PAST WORK EXPERIENCE: > > > I ran for U.S. Congress and have been there ever since. I have no real world experience except that of a gigolo, by marrying rich women and running HJ Heinz vicariously through my wife Teresa. > > > > > >
ACCOMPLISHMENTS: > > > As a US Senator I set the record for the most liberal voting record, >exceeding even Ted Kennedy and Hillary Clinton.
I have consistently failed >to support our military and CIA by voting against budgets, thus gutting our country's ability to defend itself. Although I voted for the Iraq War, now I am against it and refuse to admit that I voted for it. I voted for every liberal piece of legislation. I have no plan to help this country but I intend to raise taxes significantly if I am elected. > > > > > >
My wealth so far exceeds that of my counterpart, George Bush, that he will never catch up. I make no or little charitable contributions and have never agreed to pay any voluntary excess taxes in MA, despite family wealth in excess of $700 million. > > > > > >
I (we) own 28 manufacturing plants (Heinz) outside of the U.S. in places like Asia, Mexico and Europe. We can make more profit from the cheaper cost of labor in those Countries, although blame George Bush for sending all of the jobs out of Country. > > > > > >
Although I claim to be in favor of alternative energy sources, Ted Kennedy and I oppose windmills off Nantucket and Martha's Vineyard as it might spoil our view of the ocean as we cruise on our yachts. > > > > > >
RECORDS AND REFERENCES: > > > > > >
None. > > > > > >
PERSONAL > > > > > >
I ride a Serotta Bike. > > > > > >
My Gulfstream V Jet I call The Flying Squirrel. > > > > > >
I call my $850,000 42-foot Hinckley twin diesel yacht the >"Scarmouche." > > > > > >
I am fascinated by rap and hip-hop and feel it reflects our real >culture. > > > > > >
I own several "Large" SUVs including one parked at my Nantucket >summer >mansion, though I am against large polluting inefficient vehicles and I >blame George Bush for the energy problems.
> > > PLEASE CONSIDER MY EXPERIENCE WHEN VOTING IN 2004. > > > > > > >

Nice try chess you weirdo, next time make sure all of your links work. Sorry but I only have one messiah and that is Jesus (the original rockstar). I hope you like hell, flit boy.

For a catholic you forgot the lesson about "Judge not...."

For a catholic you forgot the lesson about "Judge not...."

But that is what confession is for. Lame brain.

Ironically enough, HannibalSmith isn't showing a spirit of Catholicism, so that certainly isn't going to be trounced upon here. Another issue, another time.

Whether Christian or not, your religious beliefs do not stipulate what party you affiliate yourself with, or any political party at all.

Being a Christian does not arbitrarily arrow me towards the Republican candidacy, for I see Bush as an unfit President. While, in a realistic setting, I see that neither President is a Saint, one must look at multiple things.

Two of the most important things are:
1)Their track Records, concerning their political experience previously, and their overall character (because character [despite some people's beliefs] does shine through when you're the leader of this nation, of America).

2) Their Platform - For, what they espouse now is surely important and crucial in the decision you make in this upcoming (and any) election.

While Graber was so kind to show a biased point of view for Kerry, one could also slosh around much of Bush's own past. Like, how Bush and his daddy have lots and lots of money themselves. I'm sure they're crying right now, that they're poor and don't have much money, in comparison to Kerry. I don't honestly care how much money they have.

They have a lot. They earned it. So what? Kerry has more than Bush. So what? Bush still has a heckuva lot. Not a valid argument, trying to smear one as worse than the other.

The people that try to smear Bush as a partyer are just silly as well. It makes no reflection of who he is now. I know plenty of friends that partied away their younger years, but they've grown up since. Bush is a bit more mannered than that, come now.

However, the Veteran scandel is quite becoming the hot cakes in this election.

I wonder, how many of you did read the Chicago Tribune article put up?

Here it is again, just in case http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/specials/elections/chi-0408220343aug22,1,2916896.story?coll=chi-electionsprint-hed

Please, go read it.

Now, out of curiosity, is anyone actually debating real issues differenced between the candidacies here? Or, are we on the message board, running our own smear campaign?

smear campaigns are fun don't knock it until you try it.
Internet forums aren't for spreading the truth it's all about opinion and how many people you can piss off. Conflict is ammusing. I hope you didn't think I was trying to be constructive (or deconstructive). I'm just shaking the walls and poking people with sticks to see who bites back. Chop!
<Prepares for another onslaught>
Hurray for lack of sleep!
I know how about next somebody can insult my inteligence, race, or even beter my mom!
(On the serious not Petrine Primacy has some good points and if I were in a serious mood I would love to talk more about all this but time for a new forum for me, Everyone go read abot how the UN is going to take over the world)
~*~Graber~*~
The Bringer of Chaos

Well, I certainly admit my surprise at your admittance of just trying to be controversial, Graber. Well done, I dare say. :D

Amusing, certainly. And I confess that it can be humerous and enjoyable from time to time, stirring up the pot.

I suppose I just came in too late to put forth some constructive criticism. My mistake. :p

Oh well, I shall have to find another forum as well, it seems. That, or become disgruntled.

:sniper:

Exactly!

We need to take this guy out and quick.

Nice teeth!!! :p

Choppers of a Muslim Extremist (http://schnittshow.com/alsadrteeth.html)

His momma should have made him floss.

They need to pump freaking gas in that hold up of theirs. Then blow them away as they run out.
Why do you call this guy a Muslim Extremist? Does he not have the right to defend his country from an illegal invasion?

Kerry is, unfortunatly, the lesser of two evils.
Sincerely,
Icon

I feel sorry for Senator McCain.

He was also bagged out by Bush in the Republican selection last election (Bush/Gore). He knows that what Drudge and other Republican croonies say is complete crap and that Bush should publicly announce it is but because he is a loyal Republican he wont say nothing.

If McCain was running for President or even Vice president I might change my mind and conceptions but as he is not

GO KERRY/EDWARDS!!!!!!

So let me get this straight, Hannibal. You're opposed to Kerry--not just not supporting him; you actively oppose Kerry in favor of a guy who dodged going to Vietnam--because he misremembered when he was in Cambodia by a matter of a couple of months. Because you do realize there's proof positive that Kerry was not only in Cambodia, but that he saw action there--only it was closer to the Tet holiday (late January, early February) in 1969 instead of Christmas 1968.

So because the guy's memory is slightly off--he associated his time in Cambodia with an important personal holiday instead of an important local one--and in spite of the fact that every other accusation against his service has been thoroughly debunked and that his accusers have been shown to be nothing more than opposition party hacks and liars, you're still going to actively oppose Kerry in favor of a guy whose dad got him into the Air National Guard and then who failed to show up for at least some of his duty, and in favor of a guy who has woefully mismanaged two conflicts during his presidency. Does that about sum it up for you?

Congratulations for winning the retard of the year award. Please jump off the nearest cliff to claim your prize.

Do you honestly think that the twin towers would still be here if Gore had won? Not a chance. If you expect to be a master at your job within just a few months of joining, especially in the highest office in the nation, you need to go back to working the fry machine at Wendy's.

Lets all live in your world were super Bush jumps up and swats terrorist planes down with his bare hands.

9/11 Chair: Attack was Preventable
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/12/17/eveningnews/main589137.shtml

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/06/18/iraq/main624663.shtml

Bottom line: We had numerous chances to stop the terrorists and failed.

I am a veteran.....not a Vietnam veteran, I am not old enough to be. However, I will put my 20 years of service up against John kerry's 4 months in Vietnam any day of the week.

As a veteran, I find it appalling that Kerry, who served honorably in Vietnam as a VOLUNTEER returned home and lied before Congress. NOW he says that what he said was told to him by other veterans. Well, that makes it hearsay and inadmissible in any court. He certainly did not say that when he was testifying.

He is losing a lot of support from veterans, which does not surprise me, Democrats are not known for taking care of the military. Clinton/Gore all but declared war on the military and they did a LOT of damage. They were soundly hated by 99% of us in uniform at the time. Fringe groups were even calling for a coup!

No, Kerry is NOT the man he purports himself to be. His running his campaign as some sort of war hero is quite funny given what he did when he returned. Had he just gone on with his life he would be a shoe-in, but our discretions from our youth always come back to us when seeking a high public office.

I am a veteran.....not a Vietnam veteran, I am not old enough to be. However, I will put my 20 years of service up against John kerry's 4 months in Vietnam any day of the week.

As a veteran, I find it appalling that Kerry, who served honorably in Vietnam as a VOLUNTEER returned home and lied before Congress. NOW he says that what he said was told to him by other veterans. Well, that makes it hearsay and inadmissible in any court. He certainly did not say that when he was testifying.

Oh, he didn't? Sorry. Try again. (http://www.richmond.edu/~ebolt/history398/JohnKerryTestimony.html)
Statement of Mr. John Kerry

...I am not here as John Kerry. I am here as one member of the group of 1,000 which is a small representation of a very much larger group of veterans in this country, and were it possible for all of them to sit at this table they would be here and have the same kind of testimony....

That's from his opening statement, Biff. How's that crow taste? Want some barbecue sauce with it?

9/11 Chair: Attack was Preventable
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/12/17/eveningnews/main589137.shtml

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/06/18/iraq/main624663.shtml

Bottom line: We had numerous chances to stop the terrorists and failed.

Yeah....Clinton had a lot of chances, but everyone dropped the ball.

Assinine no, it is the truth, there haven't been any terrorist attacks here since 911. So that would make us safer.



Stating that you are "safer" now because there have been no attacks on the mainland since 9-11 is like saying that Hawaii was "safer" after Pearl Harbour...

It is a silly assumption that because a rare event which took years of planning to pull off has not been repeated... yet ... that there are no people planning it's repeat, or that the current actions are a causal reason for this.


As long as anti-american sentiment is on the upswing in the Middle East due to current foreign policy, you are increasing the risk of future attacks - not reducing them.

Oh, he didn't? Sorry. Try again. (http://www.richmond.edu/~ebolt/history398/JohnKerryTestimony.html)


That's from his opening statement, Biff. How's that crow taste? Want some barbecue sauce with it?

Where did he say that what he said was NOT his experience? He did not. He even said that he himself had committed war crimes. He has recently said that he did embellish most of his testimony then, which throws even more doubt on it's veracity. So you can take that plate of crow and warm it up for yourself later.

Good try though....

I am a veteran.....not a Vietnam veteran, I am not old enough to be. However, I will put my 20 years of service up against John kerry's 4 months in Vietnam any day of the week.

As a veteran, I find it appalling that Kerry, who served honorably in Vietnam as a VOLUNTEER returned home and lied before Congress. NOW he says that what he said was told to him by other veterans. Well, that makes it hearsay and inadmissible in any court. He certainly did not say that when he was testifying.

He is losing a lot of support from veterans, which does not surprise me, Democrats are not known for taking care of the military. Clinton/Gore all but declared war on the military and they did a LOT of damage. They were soundly hated by 99% of us in uniform at the time. Fringe groups were even calling for a coup!

No, Kerry is NOT the man he purports himself to be. His running his campaign as some sort of war hero is quite funny given what he did when he returned. Had he just gone on with his life he would be a shoe-in, but our discretions from our youth always come back to us when seeking a high public office.


Could only quote one of you but look at the quote from Incertonia. Get your facts right before you criticise someone. How would you like it if I disputed your record. I would personally hate people to bag me out when I knew I did my best for my country. I am sure you feel the same. I feel saddened to hear that many other veterans out there are bagging him out with bothering to hear the whole story.

Please research the truth!!!!

Remember that whole Monicagate thing. That story was broken by Drudge.

And that story was equally as pointless.

I am a veteran.....not a Vietnam veteran, I am not old enough to be. However, I will put my 20 years of service up against John kerry's 4 months in Vietnam any day of the week.
this is what happens when people dont pay attention. the 4 months was kerry's SECOND tour of duty on a swiftboat, which he volunteered for, and what are you a veteran of?

As a veteran, I find it appalling that Kerry, who served honorably in Vietnam as a VOLUNTEER returned home and lied before Congress. NOW he says that what he said was told to him by other veterans. Well, that makes it hearsay and inadmissible in any court. He certainly did not say that when he was testifying.
i dont know what your talking about specifically sorry to say, but knowing the general level of research by the opposition, i doubt you know either

He is losing a lot of support from veterans, which does not surprise me, Democrats are not known for taking care of the military. Clinton/Gore all but declared war on the military and they did a LOT of damage. They were soundly hated by 99% of us in uniform at the time. Fringe groups were even calling for a coup!
alot of veterans are republicans because they have been brainwashed to listen to the chain of command without question, and to add to that, republicans are blind to the lies and faults of their side. combine those 2 and you have a nice set of voting lemmings. guess what, kerry isnt clinton or gore, do you pretend to have a point?

No, Kerry is NOT the man he purports himself to be. His running his campaign as some sort of war hero is quite funny given what he did when he returned. Had he just gone on with his life he would be a shoe-in, but our discretions from our youth always come back to us when seeking a high public office.
of course excercising ones freedom of speech and assembly should be COMPLETELY illegal and no one should be allowed to use them, the first amendment should be struck down, unless of course it is republicans who want to use it to be pro GOP, then of course they can do whatever they damn well please.


hey lets look at your last sentence, youths indiscretions. lets analyze bush's life. never worked for ANYTHING he got. he was given the ownership of the texas baseball team by a friend, then he sold it, his dad got him into yale with money and the legacy bullcrap, he passed BUSINESS with a damned C, then he got into the texas governor position somehow, probably by slinging mud with the patented GOP mud slinging machine and had fun putting anyone and everyone in jail or giving them the chair, especially drug addicts, since he was a cokehead and anyone thinking he was soft on druggies would make them suispicious of him. lets see and he was drunk until his what 40s?


yeah, both bush and kerry were born with silver spoons in their mouth, but at least kerry DID something with his life and worked for what he got instead of having his family put him into stuff

Where did he say that what he said was NOT his experience? He did not. He even said that he himself had committed war crimes. He has recently said that he did embellish most of his testimony then, which throws even more doubt on it's veracity. So you can take that plate of crow and warm it up for yourself later.

Good try though....Here's the quote where he talks about atrocities:They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.Notice the use of the pronoun "they." That indicates that Kerry is talking about what others told him, which, coincidentally, he'd been asked to testify about. Now, if you can find a quote where Kerry talks about his own war crimes, I'd like to see it.

Also, if you can find a place where Kerry has said that he embellished his testimony, I'd like to see that too, just to know that you're not, you know, making shit up like you have thus far.

Ketchup? Salt and Pepper? That plate of crow's getting ever bigger for you there Biff.

Could only quote one of you but look at the quote from Incertonia. Get your facts right before you criticise someone. How would you like it if I disputed your record. I would personally hate people to bag me out when I knew I did my best for my country. I am sure you feel the same. I feel saddened to hear that many other veterans out there are bagging him out with bothering to hear the whole story.

Please research the truth!!!!

Show me ONE instance where he STATED that what he was testifying to was NOT his own experience. The man stated that he had commited war crimes and that it was the policy of the higher command that he do so. He has since backed off on that when called on it. Since he has done so, it makes his testimony then suspect at the very least.

Had Kerry just returned home and gotten a job, he would be an undisputed war hero. Sadly for him, he did not.

Kerry made his war record the centerpiece of his campaign, noone else did that. In doing so he invited the scrutiny.

Assinine no, it is the truth, there haven't been any terrorist attacks here since 911. So that would make us safer.

Except for that anthrax thing, like you already pointed out.

Here is the flaw in what you are saying. Let's go back in time to the first World Trade Center bombing in Feburary of 1993....and then wait a year to 1994. Hey look! There haven't been any attacks since! Clearly we are safer!

On the world stage there are still the suicide bombings in Israel, Iraq, bombings in Spain, Indonesia, Chechnia (spelling?), etc... But I suppose you don't think any of this will eventually come back to US soil at some point.

Some might find this link interesting
http://www.fact-index.com/l/li/list_of_terrorist_incidents.html

Yeah....Clinton had a lot of chances, but everyone dropped the ball.

True, part of the reason I'm glad I never cast a vote for Clinton.

this is what happens when people dont pay attention. the 4 months was kerry's SECOND tour of duty on a swiftboat, which he volunteered for, and what are you a veteran of?

Lets see...20 years in the USAF.

The bombing of libya in 1986
Grenada
Panama
Desert Shield/Strom
Too many deployments in support of Operation Southern and Northern watch to count.
Bosnia AND Kosovo

alot of veterans are republicans because they have been brainwashed to listen to the chain of command without question, and to add to that, republicans are blind to the lies and faults of their side. combine those 2 and you have a nice set of voting lemmings. guess what, kerry isnt clinton or gore, do you pretend to have a point?

Veterans are Republicans because they remember that it was the Republican presidents that gave them their pay raises. Democrats typically do not do so and during the Clinton years, we went 7 of 8 years with no payraise other than that prescribed by law, usually 1.2%. So who will you support? The guy who will give you a 3-4% or more payraise or the guy who won't even try? Carter let the military fall so far behind pay wise that one of the first things Reagan did was give us a 15% payraise to help us catch up with inflation.

of course excercising ones freedom of speech and assembly should be COMPLETELY illegal and no one should be allowed to use them, the first amendment should be struck down, unless of course it is republicans who want to use it to be pro GOP, then of course they can do whatever they damn well please.

I have NO idea where you are coming up with this.

hey lets look at your last sentence, youths indiscretions. lets analyze bush's life. never worked for ANYTHING he got. he was given the ownership of the texas baseball team by a friend, then he sold it, his dad got him into yale with money and the legacy bullcrap, he passed BUSINESS with a damned C, then he got into the texas governor position somehow, probably by slinging mud with the patented GOP mud slinging machine and had fun putting anyone and everyone in jail or giving them the chair, especially drug addicts, since he was a cokehead and anyone thinking he was soft on druggies would make them suispicious of him. lets see and he was drunk until his what 40s?

Yes....but he did not badmouth and lie about the very thing he is running his campaign on. Why you do NOT see that Kerry's doing so is a problem just shows how blinded you really are.

yeah, both bush and kerry were born with silver spoons in their mouth, but at least kerry DID something with his life and worked for what he got instead of having his family put him into stuff

Really? Did he? How did he get to Yale then? I will say it again....HAD Kerry NOT testified before Congress, NONE of this would be an issue...but HE brought it up.

Lets see...20 years in the USAF.

The bombing of libya in 1986
Grenada
Panama
Desert Shield/Strom
Too many deployments in support of Operation Southern and Northern watch to count.
Bosnia AND Kosovo
good job



Veterans are Republicans because they remember that it was the Republican presidents that gave them their pay raises. Democrats typically do not do so and during the Clinton years, we went 7 of 8 years with no payraise other than that prescribed by law, usually 1.2%. So who will you support? The guy who will give you a 3-4% or more payraise or the guy who won't even try? Carter let the military fall so far behind pay wise that one of the first things Reagan did was give us a 15% payraise to help us catch up with inflation.
and again, the republicans are blind to the indiscretions of their own party



I have NO idea where you are coming up with this.
you're the one whining about kerry opposing the vietnam war after he got back, matter of fact he opposed it before he went.. i do believe it would be a vietnam veteran who stands in the best place to oppose it




Yes....but he did not badmouth and lie about the very thing he is running his campaign on. Why you do NOT see that Kerry's doing so is a problem just shows how blinded you really are.
what is that kerry is doing? i know what his opposition is doing, being bribed by the GOP to lie about kerry's service record or attack him presonally because they dont like him opposing the war when he got back. too bad for them though, their lies are being torn to shreds every other day



Really? Did he? How did he get to Yale then? I will say it again....HAD Kerry NOT testified before Congress, NONE of this would be an issue...but HE brought it up.
kerry probably bought his way into yale like bush, but he obviously didnt graduate with a C in BUSINESS, he had a BA in what i cant find, but he did go to a lwa school and graduate with a law degree, i do believe that beats bush

Here's the quote where he talks about atrocities:Notice the use of the pronoun "they." That indicates that Kerry is talking about what others told him, which, coincidentally, he'd been asked to testify about. Now, if you can find a quote where Kerry talks about his own war crimes, I'd like to see it.

Also, if you can find a place where Kerry has said that he embellished his testimony, I'd like to see that too, just to know that you're not, you know, making shit up like you have thus far.

Ketchup? Salt and Pepper? That plate of crow's getting ever bigger for you there Biff.

http://hnn.us/articles/printfriendly/3552.html

(Audiotape, April 18, 1971):

MR. CROSBY NOYES (Washington Evening Star): Mr. Kerry, you said at one time or another that you think our policies in Vietnam are tantamount to genocide and that the responsibility lies at all chains of command over there. Do you consider that you personally as a Naval officer committed atrocities in Vietnam or crimes punishable by law in this country?

SEN. KERRY: There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this is ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down. And I believe that the men who designed these, the men who designed the free fire zone, the men who ordered us, the men who signed off the air raid strike areas, I think these men, by the letter of the law, the same letter of the law that tried Lieutenant Calley, are war criminals.

http://www.interactorg.com/kerry_backs_off_statements_on_vi.htm

Kerry Backs Off Statements on Vietnam War

April 19, 2004
By JODI WILGOREN

MIAMI, April 18 - Senator John Kerry on Sunday distanced
himself from contentious statements he made three decades
ago after returning from the Vietnam War, saying his
long-ago use of the word "atrocities" to describe his and
others' actions was inappropriate and "a little bit
excessive."

Enjoy your lunch.....

"a little bit excessive"

changing the descriptory word or denoucning it doesnt change the fact it happened, try again

Really? Did he? How did he get to Yale then?Does the word 'legacy' mean anything to you? How about 'huge endowment contributions from Poppy and Grampa Prescott'?

Don't think we don't know anything about Shrubby's family in New England, sport.

And by the by, Chess forgot to mention that Poppy's cronies set Shrubby up with not one, but two oil companies in Texas that went bust under his mismanagement, before he was given a job he couldn't screw up too badly at the Texas Rangers baseball club.

Hmmmm, Biff, your quote there sounds like he was criticizing those in command, and NOT his fellow soldiers in the field. He didn't admit to raping or baby killing or making ear necklaces either. He only admits to things like free fire zones and the use of 50 cal machine guns...THINGS THAT ARE DOCUMENTED AS HAPPENING!!! So, how again did Kerry lie? He admits that the leadership of the American military had the soldiers use techniques and weapons that the soldiers were not aware were against the Geneva convention.

Sounds to me like he's supporting the troops...or would you rather have commanders running roughshod over the grunts, and having them take the blame. Sound familiar? How about Abu Gharayb??? Gee, those who discount history are bound to repeat it. Maybe if more people had paid attention to John Kerry back then, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in now? Maybe when John Kerry voted for the funding bill that would have guaranteed that our troops would have gotten adequate armor, they should have listened to him again, but no, the Republicans wanted a different version of the bill that made sure that the American taxpayer paid more of that 87 billion and was less specific as to where the money was going. But no, you'd rather make fun of the "I voted for it...before I voted against it," line of Kerry's, without understanding the implications.

I don't think either Kerry or Bush are men of their words. They both seem like they'd do anything to be president and I think somebody else should run who at least isn't dishonest about nearly everything

Veterans are Republicans because they remember that it was the Republican presidents that gave them their pay raises. Democrats typically do not do so and during the Clinton years, we went 7 of 8 years with no payraise other than that prescribed by law, usually 1.2%. So who will you support? The guy who will give you a 3-4% or more payraise or the guy who won't even try? Carter let the military fall so far behind pay wise that one of the first things Reagan did was give us a 15% payraise to help us catch up with inflation.

At least the military actually GOT a pay raise every year. My pay since Bush has been in office has only seen one raise in over three years now (and that was only about 1.2-1.5%). In fact, no professional received a pay raise this year where I work (state lab that, in part, will work in coordination with army for bioterrorism response and analysis).

I am a Lieutenant in the Japan Maritime Self Defense Force (I think that's what you Americans call it), and let me say that while Kerry was probably never ordered into Cambodia, I do not doubt that he did indeed travel up the river and across the border. People don't appreciate just how easy it is to sneak a craft like a river boat somewhere it isn't supposed to be.

I am sure Kerry was able to sneak up the river on a routine patrol and cross the border illegally, then return before he was severely missed, then later used his superiors as a scapegoat.

http://www.slate.com/id/2105529/

So let's review the situation. On Christmas Eve 1968, Kerry's Swift boat and at least two river-patrol boats were doing something unusual (Kerry wrote that he'd never been so far in-country) at least in the vicinity of the border—"near the Cambodian line," as he put it in his diary. And Kerry had with him a book that described a Pentagon study on psychological operations against Cambodia.

It is certain that by this time, the United States had long been making secret incursions across the border. This is from Page 24 of William Shawcross' 1979 book, Sideshow: Kissinger, Nixon, and the Destruction of Cambodia:

Since May 1967, when the U.S. Military Command in Saigon became concerned at the way the North Vietnamese and Viet Cong were evading American "search and destroy" and air attacks in Vietnam by making more use of bases in Laos and Cambodia, the U.S. Special Forces had been running special, highly classified missions into the two countries. Their code name was Daniel Boone.

The Daniel Boone teams entered Cambodia all along its 500-mile frontier with South Vietnam from the lonely, craggy, impenetrable mountain forests in the north, down to the well-populated and thickly reeded waterways along the Mekong River.

We know that Kerry's boat and two others were in those reeds on Christmas Eve '68.

The Cambodian special forces' incursions—which were conducted without the knowledge, much less approval, of Congress—were escalating around that time. Just over a month later, on Feb. 9, 1969, Gen. Creighton Abrams, commander of U.S. forces in Vietnam, requested a B-52 bombing attack on a Communist camp inside Cambodia. (Richard Nixon, the new president, approved the plan on March 17; the first strikes of Operation Breakfast—the secret bombing of Cambodia—started the next day.) Shawcross writes that special forces were always sent across the border to survey the area for targets just before an air operation.

So...

1. US forces were undeniably in Cambodia at that time, even if the military denies such claims.
2. John Kerry was near the Cambodian border.
3. John Kerry's boat was fast enough to cross into Cambodia easily
4. His reference to Nixon is obviously a mistake and actually, IMHO, reinforces the integrity of the rest of his story, because it implies he did not concoct a "perfect" situation just to make his point.


The circumstances at least suggest that Kerry was indeed involved in a "black" mission, even if he had never explicitly made that claim. And why would he make such claims if he hadn't been? It was neither a glamorous nor a particularly admirable mission—certainly nothing to boast of.

And in any case, why is it such a freaking big deal whether he was or was not in Cambodia? Even if he was not, can't someone be excused for not knowing exactly where they are in the middle of a massive rain forest/jungle/swamp in an unknown land with inaccurate maps while suffering from combat fatigue? Anyone ever read Heart of Darkness? You can't exactly wave a magical navigation wand and tell where you are!

Hell, Bush can't tell us where he was in the National Guard and the only thing he seems to have dealt with was hangovers.

"a little bit excessive"

changing the descriptory word or denoucning it doesnt change the fact it happened, try again

Don't forget "inappropriate" as well. ;)

At least the military actually GOT a pay raise every year. My pay since Bush has been in office has only seen one raise in over three years now (and that was only about 1.2-1.5%). In fact, no professional received a pay raise this year where I work (state lab that, in part, will work in coordination with army for bioterrorism response and analysis).

So you work for the state government. I suggest you look to your Governor for a raise then. Also, Clinton/Gore did approve a 3.1% payraise in 2000 and proclaimed that they were "taking care of the military." Yeah, they took care of it alright. They did a lot of damage to it.

Hmmmm, Biff, your quote there sounds like he was criticizing those in command, and NOT his fellow soldiers in the field. He didn't admit to raping or baby killing or making ear necklaces either. He only admits to things like free fire zones and the use of 50 cal machine guns...THINGS THAT ARE DOCUMENTED AS HAPPENING!!! So, how again did Kerry lie? He admits that the leadership of the American military had the soldiers use techniques and weapons that the soldiers were not aware were against the Geneva convention.

Sounds to me like he's supporting the troops...or would you rather have commanders running roughshod over the grunts, and having them take the blame. Sound familiar? How about Abu Gharayb??? Gee, those who discount history are bound to repeat it. Maybe if more people had paid attention to John Kerry back then, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in now? Maybe when John Kerry voted for the funding bill that would have guaranteed that our troops would have gotten adequate armor, they should have listened to him again, but no, the Republicans wanted a different version of the bill that made sure that the American taxpayer paid more of that 87 billion and was less specific as to where the money was going. But no, you'd rather make fun of the "I voted for it...before I voted against it," line of Kerry's, without understanding the implications.

Yes, but he went to great pains to say that "free fire zones" are a violation of the Geneva Convention. He also stated that the commission of atrocities was a recognized function of the high command. Not true. Regardless, the point is moot. Kerry had a chance to return home a genuine hero and get on with his life, but he squandered it and look where that got him. Also, it is Kerry's use of his Vietnam service as the foundation of his campaign that is so puzzling. Where is his 19 years in the Senate? Or his record on the intelligence committee? Thats right, he was absent most of the time. ;)

Hmmmm

News Radio reported a second Bush Campaign person resigned over helping the Swift Boat Vetererns for "Truth"

A Lawyer said he gave them legal advice. The report didn't say what the other one did.

But they still say they are not associated with the campaign! :rolleyes:

Hmmmm

News Radio reported a second Bush Campaign person resigned over helping the Swift Boat Vetererns for "Truth"

A Lawyer said he gave them legal advice. The report didn't say what the other one did.

But they still say they are not associated with the campaign! :rolleyes:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5818431/

Lawyers on the Democratic side are also representing both the campaign or party and outside groups running ads in the presidential race. Ginsberg’s dual role has drawn attention because of an ad the Swift Boat Veterans group ran accusing Kerry of exaggerating his Vietnam War record, an issue that has dominated the campaign since early August.

Joe Sandler, a lawyer for the DNC and a group running anti-Bush ads, MoveOn.org, said there is nothing wrong with serving in both roles at once.

On Saturday, retired Air Force Col. Ken Cordier resigned as a member of the Bush campaign’s veterans’ steering committee after it was learned that he appeared in the commercial.

Well, I would say this guy did nothing wrong. The other veteran who resigned MAY have done something wrong, but I think his first amendment rights trump that argument.

Shall we start a thread about President Bush's lies...?

At least the military actually GOT a pay raise every year. My pay since Bush has been in office has only seen one raise in over three years now (and that was only about 1.2-1.5%). In fact, no professional received a pay raise this year where I work (state lab that, in part, will work in coordination with army for bioterrorism response and analysis).

Sorry but the military deserves a pay raise more then you! Get a real job if you don't like your pay.

I am a Lieutenant in the Japan Maritime Self Defense Force (I think that's what you Americans call it), and let me say that while Kerry was probably never ordered into Cambodia, I do not doubt that he did indeed travel up the river and across the border. People don't appreciate just how easy it is to sneak a craft like a river boat somewhere it isn't supposed to be.

I am sure Kerry was able to sneak up the river on a routine patrol and cross the border illegally, then return before he was severely missed, then later used his superiors as a scapegoat.

He was stationed 50 miles away. Kind of hard to sneak away for a couple of hours without being noticed. Why would he do this? You just can't take your boat out for a spin, plus there are always others near you in case of action. I could only guess that Kerry was a moron, thinking we'd believe this.

Sorry but the military deserves a pay raise more then you! Get a real job if you don't like your pay.
i agree, the military needs a pay raise, but the bullshit you are spewing that they deserve one any more than any other low paid state official is bullshit.

the cost of living for military family is alot lower than the average family, free medical services (even cosmetic), the cost for housing, food, gas, etc is MUCH lower on military bases for the military families

http://www.slate.com/id/2105529/



So...

1. US forces were undeniably in Cambodia at that time, even if the military denies such claims.
2. John Kerry was near the Cambodian border.
3. John Kerry's boat was fast enough to cross into Cambodia easily
4. His reference to Nixon is obviously a mistake and actually, IMHO, reinforces the integrity of the rest of his story, because it implies he did not concoct a "perfect" situation just to make his point.




And in any case, why is it such a freaking big deal whether he was or was not in Cambodia? Even if he was not, can't someone be excused for not knowing exactly where they are in the middle of a massive rain forest/jungle/swamp in an unknown land with inaccurate maps while suffering from combat fatigue? Anyone ever read Heart of Darkness? You can't exactly wave a magical navigation wand and tell where you are!

Hell, Bush can't tell us where he was in the National Guard and the only thing he seems to have dealt with was hangovers.

Combat fatigue? He didn't see enough action to suffer from combat fatigue. Nice try. I served for 2 years in Vietnam, saw combat 4 times a day for 2 months with a day off here and there, I didn't suffer from combat fatigue.

i agree, the military needs a pay raise, but the bullshit you are spewing that they deserve one any more than any other low paid state official is bullshit.

the cost of living for military family is alot lower than the average family, free medical services (even cosmetic), the cost for housing, food, gas, etc is MUCH lower on military bases for the military families

Moron, try living on a NCO pay rate and raising 3 kids. Which is what my brother was barely able to do. I lucked out and had officers pay so it was a little bit more. He had to use freaking food stamps. Yeah real nice for one of the defenders of this nation.

Combat fatigue? He didn't see enough action to suffer from combat fatigue. Nice try. I served for 2 years in Vietnam, saw combat 4 times a day for 2 months with a day off here and there, I didn't suffer from combat fatigue.
the 4 months you people are whining about was his SECOND tour of duty and was swift boat duty, admittedly by about everyone, one of the most dangerous and trying duties

Moron, try living on a NCO pay rate and raising 3 kids. Which is what my brother was barely able to do. I lucked out and had officers pay so it was a little bit more. He had to use freaking food stamps. Yeah real nice for one of the defenders of this nation.
here's an idea

STOP POPPING OUT FUCKING BABIES


the military gets free health care INVEST IN SOME GOD DAMN CONTRECEPTIVES.

no seriously, every time you see some family talkngi about how poor they are in the military or how they are missing something in their family by being at war, they have AT LEAST 2-3 kids, sometimes more.

i know the military base here has stuff a SHITLOAD cheaper for military personnel and other people that work there then the stuff across the road has for civilians not working there

Moron, try living on a NCO pay rate and raising 3 kids. Which is what my brother was barely able to do. I lucked out and had officers pay so it was a little bit more. He had to use freaking food stamps. Yeah real nice for one of the defenders of this nation.

Too bad that Bush excluded soldiers from the child tax credit. (Unless you think the Army Times is an unbiased source.) Yep, Bush has slashed a lot of benefits for current and future soldiers... must be what makes him a better choice than Kerry.

http://www.democrats.org/specialreports/veterans/families.html

no seriously, every time you see some family talkngi about how poor they are in the military or how they are missing something in their family by being at war, they have AT LEAST 2-3 kids, sometimes more.

I'm going to disagree with you there; it is true that one of the big factors in military poverty is the number of kids. But we also live in a two-worker society, and it's extraordinarily difficult for a military spouse to maintain a career with frequent moves. Some of the places the US military is in are pretty darned expensive, too.

It seems to me that a significant subset of people who join the military are the kind of people who have several kids pretty young. As a taxpayer, I'm OK with subsidizing that.

I'm going to disagree with you there; it is true that one of the big factors in military poverty is the number of kids. But we also live in a two-worker society, and it's extraordinarily difficult for a military spouse to maintain a career with frequent moves. Some of the places the US military is in are pretty darned expensive, too.

It seems to me that a significant subset of people who join the military are the kind of people who have several kids pretty young. As a taxpayer, I'm OK with subsidizing that.
im not ok with people using it as an excuse, you dont want to have money problems, dont have 3-5 kids.

the 4 months you people are whining about was his SECOND tour of duty and was swift boat duty, admittedly by about everyone, one of the most dangerous and trying duties

What did he do in his first tour? Oh just hang out on a ship in the ocean. And that 4 months, half saw no action. Real dangerous for John Kerry, guess that explains all of those purple hearts. Rice is really dangerous when you get hit by it.

Combat fatigue? He didn't see enough action to suffer from combat fatigue. Nice try. I served for 2 years in Vietnam, saw combat 4 times a day for 2 months with a day off here and there, I didn't suffer from combat fatigue.Way to duck the issue, Skippy. I note you didn't try to refute the information, from credible sources, demonstrating that it was more than merely possible Kerry was in Cambodia. Typical right-wing tactics...when you're getting pinned down, change the subject in as inflammatory a way as possible.

Am I the only veteran here who doesn't constantly bitch and whine about how others should respect me and lick my boots and never speak bad about war or military?

It's gettin' old, guys. You did your jobs as I did mine and nobody owes you a damn thing. Not even a thanks. Get over it.

BTW ... I'm not only a veteran, but voted for Clinton twice (including once while Bush Sr. was CIC ... all CICs are TEMPORARY), appreciated how Clinton was making the military less bulky and more streamline - something the US military sorely needed - making the US military become an even more efficient and deadly force, am openly against the current war (even though I have friends there), and believe Bush to be a monkey puppet dictator for the necon regime.

I somehow remember my oath being to defend the US Constitution ... not a flag, not a President, not the White House, and certainly not snot nosed civies. I took this oath:

"I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice."

(It usually ends with "So help me God", but I have no use for that, so I didn't say it.)

Now ... how 'bout the rest of you vets? Where in the fuck in that oath does it say that a member of the military or even ex-military cannot speak ill of the TEMPORARY Commander in Chief? Obey, yes, but love and adore? Fuck no.

Get off your high horses. If you see Kerry as a traitor, then you must also see me as a traitor because I also protest war. If anything, veterans have more right to protest against war than anyone.

As for not suffering battle fatigue, goody goody for you. I know guys who couldn't sleep right for YEARS after just a few weeks in Iraq. So take your self-righteousness and shove it up your ass.

here's an idea

STOP POPPING OUT FUCKING BABIES


the military gets free health care INVEST IN SOME GOD DAMN CONTRECEPTIVES.

no seriously, every time you see some family talkngi about how poor they are in the military or how they are missing something in their family by being at war, they have AT LEAST 2-3 kids, sometimes more.

i know the military base here has stuff a SHITLOAD cheaper for military personnel and other people that work there then the stuff across the road has for civilians not working there

Your use of anger and profanity really doesn't prove your point. It makes you sound like a retard, FLIT boy.

Retard, my brother was serving at the same time as I was. Back then people wanted kids you know.

I'd like to see if you could handle what we went through in combat. All the while knowing that the people back home don't care, and the only ones who do are your family. You'd be rolled up in the fetal position crying for your mom, pooping your pants. Then you'd probably run away like a girlie man.

Am I the only veteran here who doesn't constantly bitch and whine about how others should respect me and lick my boots and never speak bad about war or military?

It's gettin' old, guys. You did your jobs as I did mine and nobody owes you a damn thing. Not even a thanks. Get over it.

BTW ... I'm not only a veteran, but voted for Clinton twice (including once while Bush Sr. was CIC ... all CICs are TEMPORARY), appreciated how Clinton was making the military less bulky and more streamline - something the US military sorely needed - making the US military become an even more efficient and deadly force, am openly against the current war (even though I have friends there), and believe Bush to be a monkey puppet dictator for the necon regime.

I somehow remember my oath being to defend the US Constitution ... not a flag, not a President, not the White House, and certainly not snot nosed civies. I took this oath:

"I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice."

(It usually ends with "So help me God", but I have no use for that, so I didn't say it.)

Now ... how 'bout the rest of you vets? Where in the fuck in that oath does it say that a member of the military or even ex-military cannot speak ill of the TEMPORARY Commander in Chief? Obey, yes, but love and adore? Fuck no.

Get off your high horses. If you see Kerry as a traitor, then you must also see me as a traitor because I also protest war. If anything, veterans have more right to protest against war than anyone.

As for not suffering battle fatigue, goody goody for you. I know guys who couldn't sleep right for YEARS after just a few weeks in Iraq. So take your self-righteousness and shove it up your ass.

Didn't think they let queers in the military. Oops, that's right Clinton had the Don't ask don't tell policy. Yeah he was so good for the military, does Somalia remind you of anything? You should shove it up there as you like prostate action, flit boy.

Your use of anger and profanity really doesn't prove your point. It makes you sound like a retard, FLIT boy.

Retard, my brother was serving at the same time as I was. Back then people wanted kids you know.

I'd like to see if you could handle what we went through in combat. All the while knowing that the people back home don't care, and the only ones who do are your family. You'd be rolled up in the fetal position crying for your mom, pooping your pants. Then you'd probably run away like a girlie man.
ooh good job, you prove you're a hypocrite AND an idiot in a SINGLE paragraph, bravo, bravisimo

cussing and idiotic personal attacks DO not make a point as you like to point out to me then turn around and do. hey guess what, at least when i'm cussing and throwing out ad hominem attacks i add substance to cuss about, you just harass because you are a republican and think yourself to be god.

Combat fatigue? He didn't see enough action to suffer from combat fatigue. Nice try. I served for 2 years in Vietnam, saw combat 4 times a day for 2 months with a day off here and there, I didn't suffer from combat fatigue.

You also weren't on the ground trading shots with the VC.

Wow.....

Unreal.

Didn't think they let queers in the military. Oops, that's right Clinton had the Don't ask don't tell policy. Yeah he was so good for the military, does Somalia remind you of anything? You should shove it up there as you like prostate action, flit boy.

I joined under Bush Sr., not Clinton.

Oh I know what your problem is ... you're a Vietnam Vet ... 2 sqauds of Desert Storm Army Rangers could've won your war with paint guns within a month.

Pansy.

Didn't think they let queers in the military. Oops, that's right Clinton had the Don't ask don't tell policy. Yeah he was so good for the military, does Somalia remind you of anything? You should shove it up there as you like prostate action, flit boy.
woo woo, hypocrite train comin through

who is with me, we round up all the republicans with their head up the GOP's collective asses, and move them to some south pacific isle and let them set up the theocratic states of no-one-gives-a-fuck-because-we-are-intolerant-little-bitches

I joined under Bush Sr., not Clinton.

Oh I know what your problem is ... you're a Vietnam Vet ... 2 sqauds of Desert Storm Army Rangers could've won your war with paint guns within a month.

Pansy.

I joined in may 1981.

Hard to win when they won't let you take the fight to the enemy. Had they been allowed to invade the North, it would have ended in 6 months tops.

I joined in may 1981.

Hard to win when they won't let you take the fight to the enemy. Had they been allowed to invade the North, it would have ended in 6 months tops.

Argued that case myself in one of the countless threads on this issue.

My buddy did two tours in the Rangers and said the same thing.

But it's still a what if type question. If we had invaded the North, would China have gotten involved? What of the USSR? They were in SAM ally so what would they have said.....

You also weren't on the ground trading shots with the VC.

No but I just happened to have SAMs and AA trying to take me down. We had them launch at us on purpose you know. Plus there were enemy fighter jets every so often, most of which were flown by Chinese or Russian pilots anyway.

Hard to win when they won't let you take the fight to the enemy. Had they been allowed to invade the North, it would have ended in 6 months tops.

Yes, the war ended six months after the French invaded northern Vietnam.

(I just finished Daniel Ellsburg's book on the subject - at least some people were cognizant of the French experience in Indochina.)

No but I just happened to has SAMs and AA trying to take me down. We had them launch at us on purpose you know.

Still not that same as close up.

Every kill a man hand to hand?

My buddy did. He still has issues to this day.

He did two tours in the Rangers so lets hear your insults about him.

I joined under Bush Sr., not Clinton.

Oh I know what your problem is ... you're a Vietnam Vet ... 2 sqauds of Desert Storm Army Rangers could've won your war with paint guns within a month.

Pansy.

Ok tough guy. We had how many Seals, Green Berets, Rangers, Recon over there? Hmm 2 squads huh. BTW its alot easier to kill someone when you don't have a jungle to block your view. Besides the Iraqi's were crappy soldiers anyway.

Still not that same as close up.

Every kill a man hand to hand?

My buddy did. He still has issues to this day.

He did two tours in the Rangers so lets hear your insults about him.

Actually after I was shot down I killed two of those yellow pricks while I was hiding, waiting to be rescued. It was by knife, not by gun.

Ok tough guy. We had how many Seals, Green Berets, Rangers, Recon over there?

... and still got your asses kicked ...

ooh good job, you prove you're a hypocrite AND an idiot in a SINGLE paragraph, bravo, bravisimo

cussing and idiotic personal attacks DO not make a point as you like to point out to me then turn around and do. hey guess what, at least when i'm cussing and throwing out ad hominem attacks i add substance to cuss about, you just harass because you are a republican and think yourself to be god.

No I just show your stupidity. Liberals aren't known as the smartest people on the block. Esp. gay little liberals like you. Do you have AIDs yet fruitcake?

... and still got your asses kicked ...

Which battle did the NVA or the VC win. I can't think of a single one. Can you name one. You are so gay. Your "buddy" was a ranger huh? Probably a butt ranger with you flit boy.

woo woo, hypocrite train comin through

who is with me, we round up all the republicans with their head up the GOP's collective asses, and move them to some south pacific isle and let them set up the theocratic states of no-one-gives-a-fuck-because-we-are-intolerant-little-bitches

Flit boy you sound so angry. It is going to suck for you when you lose this election too. You are a sore loser you still can't accept that Gore was a loser.
By the way do you have AIDs yet.

Once a liar always a liar.

And what about ties between Al Queada and Sadam Huissein that *obviously* did not exist? Or WMDs? Sure, I can understand people believing Sadam had them, but there was more evidence for them being dismantled than for them being intact. Hans Blixt said that he was pretty sure they were dismantled. I think it is pretty clear that we were lied to about Sadam being an "iminent threat" since his longest range missles were barely any threat to his immediate neighbors. I think that's a bigger lie than forgetting the precise details of what happened when you were in Vietnam.

People attack Kerry for flip-flopping because he is willing to be uncertain when, frankly, not everything is certain. Why don't we attack *Bush* for flip-flopping, not about policy, but about why we went into Iraq? First it was Al Queda... or was it WMDs... it wasn't really clear. Next it was simply to free the oppressed Iraqi people, then to set an example of him for other regimes. That's a major change there. That is far more important an issue than Kerry's war record that, even if not as completely amazing as it would at first appear, is still pretty impressive.

Yes, the war ended six months after the French invaded northern Vietnam.

(I just finished Daniel Ellsburg's book on the subject - at least some people were cognizant of the French experience in Indochina.)

The French....

They vastly underestimated Ho Chi Min and his army. Plus they took up static positions and all but begged to be shelled. LOL They were doomed from the beginning.

However, having the brunt of the US forces invading with the air superiority they had would have been a different thing. But China and the USSR would have stepped in had we done so.

HannibalSmith, you have let them get to you. They are not worth your anger, people like chess squares and the like are angry and full of hate. In order to make their own miserable lives worth something in their own eyes, they must attempt to ridicule and destroy someone else's.

As they say, not worth the piss to put him out if he was on fire....

Which battle did the NVA or the VC win. I can't think of a single one. Can you name one.

Yeah ... the whole stinkin' war! When we booted Saddam out of Kuwait, he didn't come back.

You are so gay.

You're really hung up on that gay thing .... makes one wonder ...

Your "buddy" was a ranger huh? Probably a butt ranger with you flit boy.

You're mixing posts ... I didn't say anything about my buddy the Ranger ... learn to read.

However, having the brunt of the US forces invading with the air superiority they had would have been a different thing. But China and the USSR would have stepped in had we done so.

Well, that war would have been over a lot faster than six months. It's a pity that you weren't in a position to order that invasion... that would have shown them!

Yeah ... the whole stinkin' war! When we booted Saddam out of Kuwait, he didn't come back.



You're really hung up on that gay thing .... makes one wonder ...



You're mixing posts ... I didn't say anything about my buddy the Ranger ... learn to read.


You told me to shove it, so I figured that you were the queer. BTW we lost the war, but one every battle. Can you name one you moron?

Esp. gay little liberals like you. Do you have AIDs yet fruitcake?Keep it up, bright boy. Every instance of gay-bashing is being reported to the mods.

Keep it up, bright boy. Every instance of gay-bashing is being reported to the mods.

Wow am I going to be banned from a website. Oh no, my life will end. Esp a silly little website. Why bright boy, did I strike a nerve. Do you have aids too.

Which battle did the NVA or the VC win. I can't think of a single one. Can you name one. You are so gay. Your "buddy" was a ranger huh? Probably a butt ranger with you flit boy.

Ahm

Wrong person. My buddy was the ranger....

Well, that war would have been over a lot faster than six months. It's a pity that you weren't in a position to order that invasion... that would have shown them!

Nah, we don't need nuclear fallout raining on us.

Why bright boy, did I strike a nerve. Do you have aids too.No, just a working brain.

You told me to shove it, so I figured that you were the queer. BTW we lost the war, but one every battle. Can you name one you moron?

Who cares how many battles you won when you lost the war?

Gen. Washington retreated a lot and lost a lot of battles, but the war was still won. In the end, that's all that matters.

No, just a working brain.

Hey I can type too so that means my brain is probably working as well.

Actually after I was shot down I killed two of those yellow pricks while I was hiding, waiting to be rescued. It was by knife, not by gun.

That's a little different then most flyboys.

Killing from above is tad different then doing it on the ground.

My buddy was incountry during Tet so he saw few things. His buddy stepped on a landmine was basically, well you get the idea. He said the damndest thing was the fact he didn't get "dirty" and his buddies hat came through clean as well.

He is actually talking about visting the country.

Might do him some good.

No I just show your stupidity. Liberals aren't known as the smartest people on the block. Esp. gay little liberals like you. Do you have AIDs yet fruitcake?
oh ho, so your intelligence must be judged by the number of times you call some one gay?

No I just show your stupidity. Liberals aren't known as the smartest people on the block. Esp. gay little liberals like you. Do you have AIDs yet fruitcake?

Well that can be argued.

How many liberals have banned or burned books?

Hey I can type too so that means my brain is probably working as well.

Unfortunately you seem to have tourettes and have obviously never taken any sort of logic or argumentation classes, otherwise you'd be able to form valid arguments.

The tourettes is getting boring though.

HannibalSmith, you have let them get to you. They are not worth your anger, people like chess squares and the like are angry and full of hate. In order to make their own miserable lives worth something in their own eyes, they must attempt to ridicule and destroy someone else's.

As they say, not worth the piss to put him out if he was on fire....
oh of course, that's why were are digging up as much dirt as we can on kerry's records and try to expose them and throw them around, and thats why we are sitting around calling people gay, and thats why we attacked that nearly parapelegic person (which was caused by the war) in an election as being unpatriotic,


oh wait.... that was the republicans, sorry, i was confused, you would think by the way you talk it would've been the democrats

Well that can be argued.

How many liberals have banned or burned books?

Also, who got us into the Great Depression, and who got us out.

I believe conservatives got us in, liberals got us out.

Our most recent "liberal" president was also the one to eliminate a huge deficit and build a record financial surplus.

And "Bushisms" are just funny.... "There's an old saying in [I forget the state], I know it's in Texas I think it's in [that state] that says fool me once....... shame on............ shame on you......................................... fool me twice-you can't get fooled again."

retard...girlie man...queers...shove it up [your ass]...yellow pricks...gay little...fruitcake...so gay...butt ranger...do you have AIDS yet...queer...moron

Why the hell are we still playing along with this idiot game? We say anything, back it up with any facts, and he laughs at home because he gets to insult us and pull stories out of his ass, for all we know, about how he was such a heroic figure that his beliefs can never be doubted. We are his heroin needle.

Anyway, given the subject change, should I assume that you have, in fact, revised your opinion and agree that Kerry was not lying about the Cambodia "experience"?

Also by my use of "combat fatigue" I was not so much referring to the psychological condition by that name but more the exhaustion inherant in fighting a war, especially say, a guerilla war in unfriendly jungle with people you can't see shooting at you.

oh of course, that's why were are digging up as much dirt as we can on kerry's records and try to expose them and throw them around, and thats why we are sitting around calling people gay, and thats why we attacked that nearly parapelegic person (which was caused by the war) in an election as being unpatriotic,


oh wait.... that was the republicans, sorry, i was confused, you would think by the way you talk it would've been the democrats

I didnt say anything about republicans vs democrats. But since you brought that up....

It's funny how you can vilify republicans yet if presented with evidence of democrats doing the exact same thing you turn a blind eye, or indeed sanctify them.

What Im trying to say to Hannibal is that you are not worth his anger or ire. You never listen, and only spout hate.

Okay, you asked and I'll tell you.

I'm voting for Kerry because he's more liberal than Bush, and I think the man has demonstrated that he's not willing to send our military to die for stupid reasons.

Bush terrifies me, as do many right-wingers. He seems to only see one way the country can go and that's his way. He acts as if America exists in a bubble and he has no concern for the individuals in this country who work and struggle just to get along.

Bush is smug and disrespectful to the armed forces. He says "Bring it on" when it's not his life on the line. He cuts funding to Vets and active duty reservists. He extends tours indefinately.

On top of all that, he has shown repeatedly that he totally disregards any voice of dissent. He calls anyone who disagrees with him a terrorist. He requires you to sign a pledge of loyalty to attend a rally. And he's done more damage to civil rights than any other president.

Personally, I'd elect my cat before I'd vote for Bush. Cause, really the worst my cat could do is puke on the Oval Office's carpet.

But Kerry is a viable alternative. Even if he fails to keep half his promises, I feel that this country would be better. George Bush is a dictator and will lead this country down a horrible path.

And while, I'm willing to agree that all politicians lie. I feel there are varying degrees of lies that are acceptable.

"No Dad, I didn't eat the last cookie" -- punishable with no more cookies.
"I didn't have sexual intercourse with that woman." -- Let his wife deal with it. It's none of my business. Plus no cookies.
"Saddam Hussien was responsible for 9/11 and therefore we should go to war" -- No re-election, possible impeachment, and no more cookies.


Then again, I'm one of those sick and twisted people that think liberal isn't a bad word and than being open-minded and willing to let people think for themselves is not a bad thing.

I'm also a terrorist according to John Ashcroft. (I'm one of those evil enemies of freedom, a librarian)

iLock pending Moderator review.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Game Moderator

No I just show your stupidity. Liberals aren't known as the smartest people on the block. Esp. gay little liberals like you. Do you have AIDs yet fruitcake?

Which battle did the NVA or the VC win. I can't think of a single one. Can you name one. You are so gay. Your "buddy" was a ranger huh? Probably a butt ranger with you flit boy.

I've been following your posts for a while now, and a lot of them have been borderline. You already have one warning tag tacked onto your nation. Another one has been tacked on. You will be deleted on your next offense, no matter how minor.

http://www.satanstephen.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/ban.jpg

ONE WEEK FORUM BAN


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Myrth
Ruler of the Cosmos
Forum Moderator

Actually, on further review:

http://www.satanstephen.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/ban.jpg

PERMANENT FORUM BAN

Attempting to dodge this ban will result in a permanent site-wide IP ban.


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Myrth
Ruler of the Cosmos
Forum Moderator