NationStates Jolt Archive

When my school was going to have a 1 minutes silence on September 11th 2003. I purposefully left the room, I was not going to be indoctrinated into believing the murder of innocents (however bad) deserves to be rewarded with Blood Revenge. I asked the Physics teacher why we could not also remember the far greater quantity that have died at the hands of those like Ronald Reagan, George Bush and LBJ? I asked why there was no remembrance for the 2 million N. Vietnamese Civilians who just happened to not support the puppet regime of the south, and thus had to be killed for it. Or those who died in Nicaragua against the Terrorist Contra Army (some estimate at over 100,000 dead), or those who died in Afghanistan and Iraq.

I asked why.... And he didn't have a response, because It's become normal and within society's limits to only remember those whose death is humanized. Did we see the real people when the bombs were dropping on Iraq and Afghanistan, or just some diagram of a JDAM, before a little video of the bomb dropping on a video to the cheers of the American Pilots. I wonder if they had been desensatized so much that they didn't realise the people in that building were actually real people? On quite the contrary, the people who died in 9/11 were constantly humanized, though thier deaths are much less in scale to those murdered in the recent War on Terror, we are constantly reminded that WE NEED BLOOD REVENGE by the media spewing forth endless images of little children reading out the names of their fathers or mothers.

Do or did we see this kind of humanization in Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam or Nicaragua to name just a few? No, they are not mothers, sons, daughters or fathers. They are simply a statistic, a statistic that stood in the way of the American juggernaught for War.

Damn, you are hardcore. I think that you made a good point, but you still should have honored those who died on 9/11. Hypocritical to condemn the lack of respect for those killed when you don't respect those killed, eh?

I asked why there was no remembrance for the 2 million N. Vietnamese Civilians who just happened to not support the puppet regime of the south, and thus had to be killed for it.

First of all, the S. Vietnamese government was not a 'puppet regime.' Second of all, what about all the people that monster Ho Chi Minh killed?

When my school was going to have a 1 minutes silence on September 11th 2003. I purposefully left the room, I was not going to be indoctrinated into believing the murder of innocents (however bad) deserves to be rewarded with Blood Revenge. I asked the Physics teacher why we could not also remember the far greater quantity that have died at the hands of those like Ronald Reagan, George Bush and LBJ? I asked why there was no remembrance for the 2 million N. Vietnamese Civilians who just happened to not support the puppet regime of the south, and thus had to be killed for it. Or those who died in Nicaragua against the Terrorist Contra Army (some estimate at over 100,000 dead), or those who died in Afghanistan and Iraq.

I asked why.... And he didn't have a response, because It's become normal and within society's limits to only remember those whose death is humanized. Did we see the real people when the bombs were dropping on Iraq and Afghanistan, or just some diagram of a JDAM, before a little video of the bomb dropping on a video to the cheers of the American Pilots. I wonder if they had been desensatized so much that they didn't realise the people in that building were actually real people? On quite the contrary, the people who died in 9/11 were constantly humanized, though thier deaths are much less in scale to those murdered in the recent War on Terror, we are constantly reminded that WE NEED BLOOD REVENGE by the media spewing forth endless images of little children reading out the names of their fathers or mothers.

Do or did we see this kind of humanization in Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam or Nicaragua to name just a few? No, they are not mothers, sons, daughters or fathers. They are simply a statistic, a statistic that stood in the way of the American juggernaught for War.


I'm happy you stood up for your own beliefs, no matter how much I disagree with your views. This is an honorable trait.

First of all, the S. Vietnamese government was not a 'puppet regime.' Second of all, what about all the people that monster Ho Chi Minh killed?

First of all Diem was a tyrant - go on try and dispute it.

Second of all - Why did America not allow free elections in S. Vietnam then?

Do you think you're somehow special because you didn't honor the dead of September 11th? Perhaps, instead of dishonoring those lost souls as a protest against the American juggernaut of war, you could organize some sort of rememberance ceremony for the fallen in the various wars America has engaged in. Instead of simply not having a moment of silence for the dead in September 11th, maybe you could have honored their memory and arranged to honor the memory of other dead. But, no, I imagine you didn't think of that, right? You were too busy flaunting your moral superiority by not acknowledging the memory of the 3000+ dead from September 11th. You kind of people disgust me.

First of all Diem was a tyrant - go on try and dispute it.

You are absolutely correct. I never said I disagreed with that.

Second of all - Why did America not allow free elections in S. Vietnam then?

What do you mean 'why did America not allow?' S. Vietnam was its own country, not ours.

First of all, the S. Vietnamese government was not a 'puppet regime.' Second of all, what about all the people that monster Ho Chi Minh killed?

Why weren't they allowed to vote for unification under the northen vietnam government then?

You are absolutely correct. I never said I disagreed with that.


[Quote=Roach Busters]
What do you mean 'why did America not allow?' S. Vietnam was its own country, not ours.

America decreed whether Diem allowed free elections or not. Every self respecting historian knows its because they were fearful of a Communist victory.

Why weren't they allowed to vote for unification under the northen vietnam government then?

They didn't want unification. Granted, a large number of South Vietnamese were anti-American, and almost all of them hated their government, but nearly all of them were staunchly anti-communist and feared nothing more than having to live under communism.

Do you think you're somehow special because you didn't honor the dead of September 11th? Perhaps, instead of dishonoring those lost souls as a protest against the American juggernaut of war, you could organize some sort of rememberance ceremony for the fallen in the various wars America has engaged in. Instead of simply not having a moment of silence for the dead in September 11th, maybe you could have honored their memory and arranged to honor the memory of other dead. But, no, I imagine you didn't think of that, right? You were too busy flaunting your moral superiority by not acknowledging the memory of the 3000+ dead from September 11th. You kind of people disgust me.
Oooh, burn. But Sdaeriji, you must take note that humanity is lazy and that if everyone who wanted to change of start something did so, you would have twenty-thousand orginizations/holidays for every person?

First of All, I applaud you, and I respect you, second of all, I denounce you as a fellow American.

I think you should of paid respects to the victims, who, have just been added to the "List" of the inocent. You live in America, don't expect the US to not have propaghand, US propaghanda = statistics. I am sick of the news groups using human death tolls of our soldiers as statistics for anti-war politicians and crack hippies. You are a great person to do so, I applaud you for your sense of free speech.

I have to say, most of that, good point. Afghanistan was a war I agreed with for the most part. Once we got to Iraw however, that's where I lost all support for the war.

Contrary to what most people see through our media (wether you think its biased one way or the other) I was able to watch some of the combat videos where 'real' people were killed. Documentaries of PTSD occuring in soldiers include a lot of that, some from our most recent war. There are also videos on the internet of people exploding from helicopter fire, as well as videos of bombing victims in Isreal as well as Palestine.

These videos have given a heightened sense of the humanity of the war. On both sides. I stand in silence for Sept. 11 rememberances because I lived close to New York and my town lost people. That's why I stand, not for revenge, but for rememberance.

As for the other wars, Veitnam, Nicuragua etc. . .I'm lucky to go to a Jesuit school (though I'm not Catholic) that considers compassion a virtue. We have a 'Close the SOA' trip every year as well as week of rememberance for every recorded victim from every Central American conflict in the past century.

America decreed whether Diem allowed free elections or not. Every self respecting historian knows its because they were fearful of a Communist victory.

That's b.s. If Diem wanted elections, he would have had them. If he didn't want them, he wouldn't have had them. He was encouraged by the Americans not to have them, but he wouldn't have had them anyway, for the same reason you said.

Do you think you're somehow special because you didn't honor the dead of September 11th? Perhaps, instead of dishonoring those lost souls as a protest against the American juggernaut of war, you could organize some sort of rememberance ceremony for the fallen in the various wars America has engaged in. Instead of simply not having a moment of silence for the dead in September 11th, maybe you could have honored their memory and arranged to honor the memory of other dead. But, no, I imagine you didn't think of that, right? You were too busy flaunting your moral superiority by not acknowledging the memory of the 3000+ dead from September 11th. You kind of people disgust me.

No, its because I know its indoctrination - indoctrination to justify war, I feel sorry for the dead, but no more so than those that have died in other areas of the World, and in far greater number.

That's b.s. If Diem wanted elections, he would have had them. If he didn't want them, he wouldn't have had them. He was encouraged by the Americans not to have them, but he wouldn't have had them anyway, for the same reason you said.

Hey, here's a historical fact.

In 1956, Diem closed all elections, and appointed local officials. This lost him a hell of a lot of support from the peasents. Moreover, America could have asked Diem to declare free elections, as he was basically thier puppet. But they did not, and this was, as I said before, because they were fearful of a communist victory.

Proud Socialists, I have one thing to say: Thank you for disagreeing without flaming. You've earned my respect.

Death is something which is terrible for all innocent people irrespective of their country,religion or race.To respect the death of people in America and to ignore the deaths of Africans is not humanity.

Proud Socialists, I have one thing to say: Thank you for disagreeing without flaming. You've earned my respect.

No problem

Hey, here's a historical fact.

In 1956, Diem closed all elections, and appointed local officials. This lost him a hell of a lot of support from the peasents. Moreover, America could have asked Diem to declare free elections, as he was basically thier puppet. But they did not, and this was, as I said before, because they were fearful of a communist victory.

Diem was not our puppet. He did a lot of things that pissed us off. That's why we eventually gave our tacit approval to the coup that overthrew him.

No, its because I know its indoctrination - indoctrination to justify war, I feel sorry for the dead, but no more so than those that have died in other areas of the World, and in far greater number.

But what did not honoring their memory do to help things? Did refusing that moment of silence somehow honor the dead in Vietnam or Nicaragua or Cambodia or anywhere else? No. It didn't do anything. Ignoring the people who died in September 11th did nothing to further your point whatsoever. It just made you look like a jackass. I've seen people like you a thousand times before. You delight in your own moral superiority, because you didn't bend to "American propaganda". You don't actually do anything at all. Instead of doing something to rectify the percieved injustice in your mind, you just ignored the dead of September 11th and rested on your laurels.

Diem was not our puppet. He did a lot of things that pissed us off. That's why we eventually gave our tacit approval to the coup that overthrew him.

Which replaced him with yet another dictator who was despised by the people.

Ngo Dinh Diem - Born in 1901, Ngo Dinh Diem came from a family that was both Confucian and Catholic. His Christian religion would help endear him to many Americans, but alienated him from much of SVN's Buddhist majority. Extremely religious, Diem studied at seminary, including three years at a seminary in New Jersey. Returning to Vietnam, the fiercely nationalist Diem became a member of Emperor Bao Dai's cabinet. After realizing that the emperor was just a French puppet, Diem resigned. Later, with American backing, Diem became the president of the South Vietnamese Republic of Vietnam, ignoring the agreements of the Geneva Conference which promised free elections in 1956. Increasingly paranoid, he gave his family members important positions of leadership in RVN, which they abused. Diem and his brother Nhu were assassinated in 1963 as part of US-approved coup. Despite the corruption of Diem's regime, Diem himself was a sincere nationalist but became known as an American puppet a few years prior to his Assasination, this was because of Lansdale's relationship with Diem, and Lansdale's influence with Policymakers.

The American Administration had influence over Diem, a lot of Influence, definately enough to push for an election or pull out the advisors and funding, and although not all the State Department supported him, a lot of them did.

I have to agree with Sdaeriji on this one. I can understand and agree wholeheartedly with what you believe, Proud Socialists, but walking out didn't help much.

Perhaps instead you could have asked your teacher for another minutes silence (or a prayer, if you're in a school that does that) to adknowledge the dead in Iraq, etc?

Which replaced him with yet another dictator who was despised by the people.

Ngo Dinh Diem - Born in 1901, Ngo Dinh Diem came from a family that was both Confucian and Catholic. His Christian religion would help endear him to many Americans, but alienated him from much of SVN's Buddhist majority. Extremely religious, Diem studied at seminary, including three years at a seminary in New Jersey. Returning to Vietnam, the fiercely nationalist Diem became a member of Emperor Bao Dai's cabinet. After realizing that the emperor was just a French puppet, Diem resigned. Later, with American backing, Diem became the president of the South Vietnamese Republic of Vietnam, ignoring the agreements of the Geneva Conference which promised free elections in 1956. Increasingly paranoid, he gave his family members important positions of leadership in RVN, which they abused. Diem and his brother Nhu were assassinated in 1963 as part of US-approved coup. Despite the corruption of Diem's regime, Diem himself was a sincere nationalist but became known as an American puppet a few years prior to his Assasination, this was because of Lansdale's relationship with Diem, and Lansdale's influence with Policymakers.


All true, except for the puppet part. One book I'd recommend is Background to Betrayal, which was written by a journalist named Hilaire du Berrier, who spent many years in Indochina. It examines what happened in Vietnam from 1945-63, and is absolutely crucial reading, especially if you want to learn more about Diem and his relationship with us, and how our media and politicians covered up his atrocities and brainwashed the public into believing he was a great hero, etc.

I agree that we shouldnt be holding remembrances for 9/11, but for a different reason. Let the families remember their lost ones. Let our nation remember that there are terrorists out there. We dont need a special moment set aside to do that.
You know what I see in my mind when I hear about 9/11 ceremonies and turning the WTC into a memorial? I see Al Queda saying "Look! They celebrate our great victory over there every year! And look! Now they are making a memorial to commemorate our great acheivement!"

I'd rather not give the *#*@#* the satisfaction :gundge:

As an active duty Marine who knows nothing about you (the feeling is more and less mutual with yourself about me), i am looking more forward to the day I retire (41 months) so that I would not have to sacrifice my life for people like you who have no gratitude...

It is because of people like you that think and share your thoughts that makes all those military people who have given the ultimate sacrifice so you may practice freedom of speech a wasted death...

It is easy to say what you have when your not a victim of the horrors of reality... Go back and climb back into your little bubble or under the rock from whence you came...

Another book I'd recommend is Death by Government by R.J. Rummel. Meticulously researched and drawn from over a thousand sources, it is a captivating read that is unbiased and closely examines virtually every 20th century dictator, on both ends of the political spectrum.

As an active duty Marine who knows nothing about you (the feeling is more and less mutual with yourself about me), i am looking more forward to the day I retire (41 months) so that I would not have to sacrifice my life for people like you who have no gratitude...
It is because of people like you that think and share your thoughts that makes all those military people who have given the ultimate sacrifice so you may practice freedom of speech a wasted death...
It is easy to say what you have when your not a victim of the horrors of reality... Go back and climb back into your little bubble or under the rock from whence you came...

God I'm sick of sanctimonious bullshit like this from US soldiers. This is your job; you volunteered to do it and you are getting paid to do it. He, or anyone else for that matter, owes you nothing. Deal with it and stop patting yourself on the back thinking you deserve special attention.

When my school was going to have a 1 minutes silence on September 11th 2003. I purposefully left the room, I was not going to be indoctrinated into believing the murder of innocents (however bad) deserves to be rewarded with Blood Revenge. I asked the Physics teacher why we could not also remember the far greater quantity that have died at the hands of those like Ronald Reagan, George Bush and LBJ? I asked why there was no remembrance for the 2 million N. Vietnamese Civilians who just happened to not support the puppet regime of the south, and thus had to be killed for it. Or those who died in Nicaragua against the Terrorist Contra Army (some estimate at over 100,000 dead), or those who died in Afghanistan and Iraq.

I asked why.... And he didn't have a response, because It's become normal and within society's limits to only remember those whose death is humanized. Did we see the real people when the bombs were dropping on Iraq and Afghanistan, or just some diagram of a JDAM, before a little video of the bomb dropping on a video to the cheers of the American Pilots. I wonder if they had been desensatized so much that they didn't realise the people in that building were actually real people? On quite the contrary, the people who died in 9/11 were constantly humanized, though thier deaths are much less in scale to those murdered in the recent War on Terror, we are constantly reminded that WE NEED BLOOD REVENGE by the media spewing forth endless images of little children reading out the names of their fathers or mothers.

Do or did we see this kind of humanization in Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam or Nicaragua to name just a few? No, they are not mothers, sons, daughters or fathers. They are simply a statistic, a statistic that stood in the way of the American juggernaught for War.

People like you shouldn't be allowed in America. The reason that we need blood revenge is because AMERICANS were killed on AMERICAN soil by dirty terrorists, we AMERICANS have they right to protect ourselves and revenge our fallen. I don't know if your just un-patriotic or Anti-American but how can you not want the bloodiest of blood revenge on those who viciously murdered
3000 Americans going about their daily business. When september 11 happened I would have support a nuclear strike on every location UBL was suspected at.

3000 Americans going about their daily business. When september 11 happened I would have support a nuclear strike on every location UBL was suspected at.

Which is why you are not in charge of anything of the sort.

As an active duty Marine who knows nothing about you (the feeling is more and less mutual with yourself about me), i am looking more forward to the day I retire (41 months) so that I would not have to sacrifice my life for people like you who have no gratitude...

It is because of people like you that think and share your thoughts that makes all those military people who have given the ultimate sacrifice so you may practice freedom of speech a wasted death...

It is easy to say what you have when your not a victim of the horrors of reality... Go back and climb back into your little bubble or under the rock from whence you came...

That's worse bullshit than the stuff spewing from Proud Socialists. You volunteered to join the Marines; no one forced you to sign up. If you didn't want to risk your life defending people like him, then you shouldn't have joined the Marines. Simple as that. Don't act like you're somehow special because you volunteered.

No one, regardless of their opinion, shouldn't be allowed the freedom of speech, and no American soldier's death has ever been in vain. To think otherwise is ignorant and un-American.

God I'm sick of sanctimonious bullshit like this from US soldiers. This is your job; you volunteered to do it and you are getting paid to do it. He, or anyone else for that matter, owes you nothing. Deal with it and stop patting yourself on the back thinking you deserve special attention.

Why, because he's got guts enough to do it so spoiled brats can spit at him?
Talk about hypocrisy -- why do you think Proud Socialists had to tell us about what he did last year if it wasn't because he wanted to be patted on the back and told how special he is? For what? For leaving a room and refusing a moment of silence in remembrance of 3000 murdered people -- not all of whom were Americans.

VERY special indeed.

God I'm sick of sanctimonious bullshit like this from US soldiers. This is your job; you volunteered to do it and you are getting paid to do it. He, or anyone else for that matter, owes you nothing. Deal with it and stop patting yourself on the back thinking you deserve special attention.

Typical response from someone who has no unearthly clue about what it is like to serve in the Armed Forces... Just a quick lesson to those who may be as ignorant as this poor soul, I am a Marine, not a soldier. Soldiers are in the Army, not the Marine Corps...

My point with my statement is respect those who may have died but judging from your ridiculous response, that is well beyond your scope of understanding. I will also add that if someone sacrificed their life for you, it would be a meaningless death as well...

You can join your other friend who lives under that one rock...

Another book I'd recommend is Death by Government by R.J. Rummel. Meticulously researched and drawn from over a thousand sources, it is a captivating read that is unbiased and closely examines virtually every 20th century dictator, on both ends of the political spectrum.

I'll check it out, but I've heard some details in the book are largely overblown. 62 million killed by the stalinist regime does seem a tad much. Most estimates I've heard put it around 20-25 million at most.

That's worse bullshit than the stuff spewing from Proud Socialists. You volunteered to join the Marines; no one forced you to sign up. If you didn't want to risk your life defending people like him, then you shouldn't have joined the Marines. Simple as that. Don't act like you're somehow special because you volunteered.

No one, regardless of their opinion, shouldn't be allowed the freedom of speech, and no American soldier's death has ever been in vain. To think otherwise is ignorant and un-American.

Another rock person... Sounds to me like your one of those who were not fit to wear the uniform and your jealous of those who can... That is fortunate for us and very unfortuante for the enmeies who we fight both domestic and foreign...

If a person in the Armed Forces gave their life to protect you and the others who share your thoughts, it would also be a meaningless death...

It must be nice under that rock...

I too was disgusted over all the ceremonies, the american flag stickers plastered over every vehicle, the constant replay of events, the obsession and the ignorance that followed September 11th. But I understand it.

Why no moment of silence for the holocaust? The Rwandan genocides? The millions dead in Cambodia? The millions dead in El Salvador? The thousands upon thousands of Iraqis killed, not only during Saddam's regime, but in the horribly planned war to dispatch him? Why no moment of silence for the men, women, and children silently tortured and murdered every day? Why no silence for them?

My theory is that it's all too scary for people who almost desperately want to live in safe, ignorant, comfortable lives, because that may be the only way they can be happy. It's not necessarily right, but it's not necessarily wrong either. Millions of people being ruthlessly slaughtered in horrific ways while the rest of the world was too stunned, too helpless, or too uninformed to do anything about it is a very very terrifying thing. It is the dark side of humanity in its worst form. People want to ignore it and move on, even pretend it never happened. Which can be very dangerous since we need to remember the mistakes of those in the past, but for many it's the only way they can deal with it.

Now when it comes to September 11th, it was a shock to those people because it was so close to home. Admit it or not, (I know this will be an argument starter) Americans like to value their people over others (right or wrong? Maybe neither. It's debatable) and the idea that horrible things that happen in other parts of the world can happen here, the place where they could feel comfortable, ignorant, and safe, was too much to deal with for many people. Which is why the obsession started. To deal with it. To focus more on the suffering that was, rather than the suffering that could be. A thing that helped this obsession grow was that on the scale of human deaths that have occurred in history, September 11th was relatively small. So it was big enough to obsess over and deal with the sudden realization that even this country could feel suffering, but not big enough to be too horrible and frightening.

I know I've rambled and probably confused you. So I'll try to put it another way: It's human nature to recognize something that affected you more directly and is not too horrible, over something that didn't necessarily affect you at all and is too horrible to even envision.

It's natural to be disgusted by human nature.

Another rock person... Sounds to me like your one of those who were not fit to wear the uniform and your jealous of those who can... That is fortunate for us and very unfortuante for the enmeies who we fight both domestic and foreign...

If a person in the Armed Forces gave their life to protect you and the others who share your thoughts, it would also be a meaningless death...

It must be nice under that rock...

Spc. Matthew Billings, US Army.

I'll check it out, but I've heard some details in the book are largely overblown. 62 million killed by the stalinist regime does seem a tad much. Most estimates I've heard put it around 20-25 million at most.

I don't think it says Stalin killed that many, just the USSR in general. But yes, I'd highly recommend it. As I said, it examines all dictators- left, right, pro-American, anti-American- and is extremely well researched.

Why, because he's got guts enough to do it so spoiled brats can spit at him?
Talk about hypocrisy -- why do you think Proud Socialists had to tell us about what he did last year if it wasn't because he wanted to be patted on the back and told how special he is? For what? For leaving a room and refusing a moment of silence in remembrance of 3000 murdered people -- not all of whom were Americans.

VERY special indeed.

It is hypocrisy. Neither of them should be commended.

As an active duty Marine who knows nothing about you (the feeling is more and less mutual with yourself about me), i am looking more forward to the day I retire (41 months) so that I would not have to sacrifice my life for people like you who have no gratitude...

It is because of people like you that think and share your thoughts that makes all those military people who have given the ultimate sacrifice so you may practice freedom of speech a wasted death...

It is easy to say what you have when your not a victim of the horrors of reality... Go back and climb back into your little bubble or under the rock from whence you came...

Perhaps you misunderstood the meaning of Freedom of Speech? I suspect you also completely missed the point he was trying to make. He didnt refuse to honor the dead. He refused to elevate the deaths of certain individuals over the deaths of others.

Hmm...You've named yourself aptly. Proud indeed, dignified even...

You seem intelligent enough to understand the flaws in the "American juggernaught" and seem to have some inkling of where they come from.

Perhaps you don't understand that the golden ideal that you hold your nation to is actually a fairly recent idea. The ugly side of politics and war (dehumanization, glory in the destruction of those who oppose) are age old and well entrenched concepts that date back to the beginning of political history as we know it. The concept of seeing your enemies as humans worthy of respect is found in precious few times of conflict.

But perhaps this dehumanization serves a purpose. If you focus deeply on each human individual, you'll see that there are few people who deserve death instead of life, and fewer still who can judge those who can and can't accurately. Do you see what I am saying? In war, we cannot selectively kill only those who are evil enough to warrant death, we cannot save everyone who deserves life. War is triage on a massive scale...some people live, some die, and in the end one can only hope that the conflict somehow turned out for the best.

Think about how many veterans are traumatized in war, just how many go home with nightmares and are unable to function normally. Some have seen things happen that would paralyze the mind and make it go numb, or mad. The dehumanization process helps ease this, preserving the minds of those who live by “forgetting” those who died were human too. It is an imperfect system but it helps ease the suffering of those who still live, but it cannot give comfort to the dead. I lament that we cannot be kinder to those who died, but it would be cruel to deny those who return from war the small comfort it brings.

Why do you think we honor our veterans so? We need to remind ourselves that sacrifices have been made for any number of reasons. We try not to forget our own citizens, but we forget others…an imperfect system. The JDAM cameras help our pilots forget they’ve killed a room full of people, but the alternative is to storm that room…and more would die. Which do you prefer? More deaths; or unfair treatment to those who do die? An unfair and nasty choice to be sure, but it is the one that we face now.

Yes, you are entirely correct in that those who died innocently from our actions, or those who stood against us directly are forgotten, dehumanized, and it is regrettable. We do this because as a nation, we have not reached a system of thought that allows us to simultaneously honor both veteran and foe. I have studied for years looking for a suitable alternative, but history gives us previous few good examples of how to behave in war.

I do not blame you for walking out of your classroom because of the nature of the 9/11 remembrance. However, remember the nation we live in is not perfect, and each individual citizen should understand that what you do to honor the lives of those who fell during war is just as important as what the government or the TV station does. Your actions will affect those around you, and perhaps some good will yet come of it. So honor the fallen in Iraq, Afghanistan, S. Vietnam, N. Korea, any nation anywhere; your dignity in honoring them would be commendable.

You have risen above the hatred that you’ve been trained to have for the US’s enemies, now I ask you to forgive the US as well. I hope you can understand why the US is doing what it is doing; and to help the US achieve a more suitable mindset in war.

I have a feeling this is all going to explode into a full-blown flame war any second...

(hides in corner)

Spc. Matthew Billings, US Army.

Sure, you are...

If you are in the Army, good choice because you would never make it in the Marine Corps with that type of attitude... It is that type of attitude that kills Marines...

Do us all a favor and stay right there wherever you may be... No need for you all to torture anymore innocent Iraqi's and put more lives in danger with your lack of discipline...

Spc. Matthew Billings, US Army.

LOL. Best. Comeback. Ever.

Typical response from someone who has no unearthly clue about what it is like to serve in the Armed Forces... Just a quick lesson to those who may be as ignorant as this poor soul, I am a Marine, not a soldier. Soldiers are in the Army, not the Marine Corps... Like i care. Soldier is also a blanket term to refer to anyone in the military. You realyl want to argue semantics here?

My point with my statement is respect those who may have died but judging from your ridiculous response, that is well beyond your scope of understanding. Actually your statement was highly condescending and pulling little basis other than, "we volunteered to be in the military, respect us." and I will respect those who have died, like I respect everyone who has died. Military or not. You do not know me as a person, don't pretend that you do.

I will also add that if someone sacrificed their life for you, it would be a meaningless death as well... Meaningless flame. My, aren't you jsut the master of debating skills? Go wank off where someone cares.

You can join your other friend who lives under that one rock...
Ah, the typical "you are not praising me so you must be the enemy" garbage. Are you really that childish? Grow up and stop seeing the world as black and white.

Hmm...You've named yourself aptly. Proud indeed, dignified even...

You seem intelligent enough to understand the flaws in the "American juggernaught" and seem to have some inkling of where they come from.

Perhaps you don't understand that the golden ideal that you hold your nation to is actually a fairly recent idea. The ugly side of politics and war (dehumanization, glory in the destruction of those who oppose) are age old and well entrenched concepts that date back to the beginning of political history as we know it. The concept of seeing your enemies as humans worthy of respect is found in precious few times of conflict.

But perhaps this dehumanization serves a purpose. If you focus deeply on each human individual, you'll see that there are few people who deserve death instead of life, and fewer still who can judge those who can and can't accurately. Do you see what I am saying? In war, we cannot selectively kill only those who are evil enough to warrant death, we cannot save everyone who deserves life. War is triage on a massive scale...some people live, some die, and in the end one can only hope that the conflict somehow turned out for the best.

Think about how many veterans are traumatized in war, just how many go home with nightmares and are unable to function normally. Some have seen things happen that would paralyze the mind and make it go numb, or mad. The dehumanization process helps ease this, preserving the minds of those who live by “forgetting” those who died were human too. It is an imperfect system but it helps ease the suffering of those who still live, but it cannot give comfort to the dead. I lament that we cannot be kinder to those who died, but it would be cruel to deny those who return from war the small comfort it brings.

Why do you think we honor our veterans so? We need to remind ourselves that sacrifices have been made for any number of reasons. We try not to forget our own citizens, but we forget others…an imperfect system. The JDAM cameras help our pilots forget they’ve killed a room full of people, but the alternative is to storm that room…and more would die. Which do you prefer? More deaths; or unfair treatment to those who do die? An unfair and nasty choice to be sure, but it is the one that we face now.

Yes, you are entirely correct in that those who died innocently from our actions, or those who stood against us directly are forgotten, dehumanized, and it is regrettable. We do this because as a nation, we have not reached a system of thought that allows us to simultaneously honor both veteran and foe. I have studied for years looking for a suitable alternative, but history gives us previous few good examples of how to behave in war.

I do not blame you for walking out of your classroom because of the nature of the 9/11 remembrance. However, remember the nation we live in is not perfect, and each individual citizen should understand that what you do to honor the lives of those who fell during war is just as important as what the government or the TV station does. Your actions will affect those around you, and perhaps some good will yet come of it. So honor the fallen in Iraq, Afghanistan, S. Vietnam, N. Korea, any nation anywhere; your dignity in honoring them would be commendable.

You have risen above the hatred that you’ve been trained to have for the US’s enemies, now I ask you to forgive the US as well. I hope you can understand why the US is doing what it is doing; and to help the US achieve a more suitable mindset in war.

That was a beautiful speech, man. No, I'm not being sarcastic, it really was. Very well said.

Sure, you are...

If you are in the Army, good choice because you would never make it in the Marine Corps with that type of attitude... It is that type of attitude that kills Marines...

Do us all a favor and stay right there wherever you may be... No need for you all to torture anymore innocent Iraqi's and put more lives in danger with your lack of discipline...

Yeah, right blockhead. Marines are for people too stupid to make it in the Army. You guys are crazy bastards though. I'd never pick this kind of fight with a Marine in person

Have you ever actually been in any kind of combat situation?

Perhaps you misunderstood the meaning of Freedom of Speech? I suspect you also completely missed the point he was trying to make. He didnt refuse to honor the dead. He refused to elevate the deaths of certain individuals over the deaths of others.

Negative... I did not misunderstand anything... All i saw was someone who turned their back on 3000 innocent souls who were slain for nothing...

Just do as I was taught... Do as your told, when you are done, then you complain...

It is hypocrisy. Neither of them should be commended.

Amen, I agree with you.

Hypocritical to condemn the lack of respect for those killed when you don't respect those killed, eh?
I second

God I'm sick of sanctimonious bullshit like this from US soldiers. This is your job; you volunteered to do it and you are getting paid to do it. He, or anyone else for that matter, owes you nothing. Deal with it and stop patting yourself on the back thinking you deserve special attention.
Agree with you fully Chikyota

Yeah, right blockhead. Marines are for people too stupid to make it in the Army. You guys are crazy bastards though. I'd never pick this kind of fight with a Marine in person

Have you ever actually been in any kind of combat situation?

i been in now just over 16 years and yes, i have been to combat situations...

Somalia, Liberia, Desert Storm, and Haiti...

When my school was going to have a 1 minutes silence on September 11th 2003. I purposefully left the room, I was not going to be indoctrinated into believing the murder of innocents (however bad) deserves to be rewarded with Blood Revenge. I asked the Physics teacher why we could not also remember the far greater quantity that have died at the hands of those like Ronald Reagan, George Bush and LBJ? I asked why there was no remembrance for the 2 million N. Vietnamese Civilians who just happened to not support the puppet regime of the south, and thus had to be killed for it. Or those who died in Nicaragua against the Terrorist Contra Army (some estimate at over 100,000 dead), or those who died in Afghanistan and Iraq.

I asked why.... And he didn't have a response, because It's become normal and within society's limits to only remember those whose death is humanized. Did we see the real people when the bombs were dropping on Iraq and Afghanistan, or just some diagram of a JDAM, before a little video of the bomb dropping on a video to the cheers of the American Pilots. I wonder if they had been desensatized so much that they didn't realise the people in that building were actually real people? On quite the contrary, the people who died in 9/11 were constantly humanized, though thier deaths are much less in scale to those murdered in the recent War on Terror, we are constantly reminded that WE NEED BLOOD REVENGE by the media spewing forth endless images of little children reading out the names of their fathers or mothers.

Do or did we see this kind of humanization in Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam or Nicaragua to name just a few? No, they are not mothers, sons, daughters or fathers. They are simply a statistic, a statistic that stood in the way of the American juggernaught for War.

Though I'm not criticising you on this, I have to say that the minute of silence is intended to mourn the fact that people died, not the bastards who killed them. It has nothing to do with war. But i do agree that the media has gone way overboard with all this stuff about 9/11 and Iraq.

Agree with you fully Chikyota

You be quiet. You're just as bad as the blockhead.

Agree with you fully Chikyota

WOW, really surprising...

i been in now just over 16 years and yes, i have been to combat situations...

Somalia, Liberia, Desert Storm, and Haiti...

Ah. Well good for you. What's your rank Marine?

As an active duty Marine who knows nothing about you (the feeling is more and less mutual with yourself about me), i am looking more forward to the day I retire (41 months) so that I would not have to sacrifice my life for people like you who have no gratitude...

It is because of people like you that think and share your thoughts that makes all those military people who have given the ultimate sacrifice so you may practice freedom of speech a wasted death...

It is easy to say what you have when your not a victim of the horrors of reality... Go back and climb back into your little bubble or under the rock from whence you came...

Dont you hate it that marines always throw that back in your face?
As a marine you risk your life so we can go on bitching about the things you do.

You be quiet. You're just as bad as the blockhead.

Ignorance at its finest...

Dont you hate it that marines always throw that back in your face?
As a marine you risk your life so we can go on bitching about the things you do.

I only bring it up to ungrateful individuals...


Ah. Well good for you. What's your rank Marine?

I am a 1stSgt...

If you are in the Army, good choice because you would never make it in the Marine Corps with that type of attitude...

What you mean the attitude that he questions things and agrees with free speech?

If joining the Marines meant giving that up, then I'm not sure anyone but the most 'patriotic' of people would.

Ignorance at its finest...

Why's that? Because he's just as proud of his non-achievements as you are? Listen, you joined the Marines. I joined the Army. No one forced us to. We volunteered. So stop acting so proud like we're different.

Dont you hate it that marines always throw that back in your face?
As a marine you risk your life so we can go on bitching about the things you do.
Don'y you hate it when the marines bitch about our lack of gratitude. We go to work in our cubicle farms and pay taxes so they can get paid.

The world works various directions and everyone scratches everyone's back at some point or another. Anyone keeping track of the 'score' needs to come to their senses.

Why's that? Because he's just as proud of his non-achievements as you are? Listen, you joined the Marines. I joined the Army. No one forced us to. We volunteered. So stop acting so proud like we're different.

Thank you.

You are a piece of trash american and i wish that i could meet you to give you a nice beating in honor of those that died on 9/11.

And as far as your love for all of these people in the other countries...get out of our great nation!!!!

What you mean the attitude that he questions things and agrees with free speech?

If joining the Marines meant giving that up, then I'm not sure anyone but the most 'patriotic' of people would.

You missed the point... It is way over your head... You would never understand what I am talking about... Spare yourself the misery and concentrate on more simpler things to think about like crayons and construction paper...


Don'y you hate it when the marines bitch about our lack of gratitude. We go to work in our cubicle farms and pay taxes so they can get paid.

The world works various directions and everyone scratches everyone's back at some point or another. Anyone keeping track of the 'score' needs to come to their senses.

That is correct to a certain degree. Keep up the good work... I like my pay check...


Why's that? Because he's just as proud of his non-achievements as you are? Listen, you joined the Marines. I joined the Army. No one forced us to. We volunteered. So stop acting so proud like we're different.

Well, yes, i am different... It is not every person who qulaify to be a Marine. It takes a special person to do what I have done so in all regards, I am very different...

Though I'm not criticising you on this, I have to say that the minute of silence is intended to mourn the fact that people died, not the bastards who killed them. It has nothing to do with war. But i do agree that the media has gone way overboard with all this stuff about 9/11 and Iraq.

Absolutely, I in no way shape or form condone the killing of innocents during 9/11. It was despicable, and it is not about that, it is about the shameless use of the dead time and time again to justify a War. Didn't Bush use footage of 9/11 in his Campaign Videos? How can the man be so shameless?!

Again this is about the use of these people to justify War, and then being hypocritical by ignoring those who have died as a result of American aggression.

How is it that you managed to pull all the high publicity assignments? I'f you've been to all those places you must have been stationed overseas a lot.

Well, yes, i am different... It is not every person who qulaify to be a Marine. It takes a special person to do what I have done so in all regards, I am very different...

Yeah, an IQ under 50.
:D

Negative... I did not misunderstand anything... All i saw was someone who turned their back on 3000 innocent souls who were slain for nothing...

Just do as I was taught... Do as your told, when you are done, then you complain...

That may be fine for you under the UCMJ, but out here we live under the Constitution, which allows Proud Socialist to make his passive protest, and which you have sworn to protect. Your statement about soldiers wasted deaths means that you only want to protect Americans who hold your opinions and values. Kinda detracts from the morally righteous high ground of being the protector of American Freedoms and any inherent clout in your opinion due to being a member of the military is diminished by it.

When my school was going to have a 1 minutes silence on September 11th 2003. I purposefully left the room, I was not going to be indoctrinated into believing the murder of innocents (however bad) deserves to be rewarded with Blood Revenge.

Oddly, this demonstrates the beauty of the First Amendment. You have every right in the world to be as much of a dick as you've described yourself to be in your "proud statement."

What's more, you're absolutely free to brag about it a year later.

First lesson: You shouldn't get so obviously emotional. You'll just set yourself up for ridicule from some smartass.

Thanks for the tip. However, I have long since practiced the fine art of writing emotion into a work without being distracted by it myself. If I went over the top, its probably because I'm tired.

Oh, Roach-Busters, and you said you hadn't seen me around eh? ;)

You are a piece of trash american and i wish that i could meet you to give you a nice beating in honor of those that died on 9/11.

And as far as your love for all of these people in the other countries...get out of our great nation!!!!

"Love it, or leave it...i'll get beat up if i criticize it" - Stars and Stripes of Corruption by the Dead Kennedys

Is it just me, or is it getting hot in here...

Flames, flames, flames! :(

How is it that you managed to pull all the high publicity assignments? I'f you've been to all those places you must have been stationed overseas a lot.

yes, it is a tough price... In 16 1/2 years, I been overseas 12 of those years...


That may be fine for you under the UCMJ, but out here we live under the Constitution, which allows Proud Socialist to make his passive protest, and which you have sworn to protect. Your statement about soldiers wasted deaths means that you only want to protect Americans who hold your opinions and values. Kinda detracts from the morally righteous high ground of being the protector of American Freedoms and any inherent clout in your opinion due to being a member of the military is diminished by it.

Nah, not at all... Just respect those who had perished for nothing... Those that offend those who cannot stand to defend themselves are offensive...


Yeah, an IQ under 50.

negative... Must have at the minimum of 32 on the ASVAN test and the minimum GT score a 90... That is the minimum for test scores...

Oh, Roach-Busters, and you said you hadn't seen me around eh? ;)

That's correct, but now that I have, I'm damn impressed. You're definitely a candidate for best NS poster.

negative... Must have at the minimum of 32 on the ASVAN test and the minimum GT score a 90... That is the minimum for test scores...

Well, no shit. You're not a Marine at all if you don't expect me to rag on you.

I think nothing on earth has sickened me as much as the false patriotism which was surfaced ever since September 11th.

I agree that walking out of a ceremony does nothing productive. But neither does festooning everything with American flags, deciding not to buy French food, and all the other half-assed crap people came up with desperately in order to show how much they supported their country.

Want to support the country? CAST A GODDAMNED VOTE IN EVERY ELECTION. Pay every cent you owe of your income taxes, without cheating or lying or even using every stupid loophole your tax lawyer can find. Stop purchasing imported items which have displaced American products. Boycott Wal-Mart, which derrives nearly all its merchendise from foreign sources. Join the military and serve.

Burning an American flag in potest is more American than shutting up and knuckling under whenever anyone brings up the argument "we were attacked we deserve/need revenge" because at least the former lies on the foundation of the Constitution and freedom.

In any event, mostly to be contrary, I must also raise the question, "why does it matter that we commemorate the victims of September 11th anyway?" Many seem to have a knee-jerk reaction that anything done to disrespect September 11th (I find it ironic that most of these people call it that catchy media nickname "9/11") and find it disgusting that anyone could disrespect the dead. Why celebrate those dead? It's not as if their deaths contributed something to American society -- quite the opposite -- as opposed to those who died fighting for their country's interests in war.


Ironically, the people who remember September 11th most fervently seem to be those who also consider it a titanic victory against America the Terrible.

Well, no shit. You're not a Marine at all if you don't expect me to rag on you.

i suppose... Just another thing...

...(D)eciding not to buy French food....

Did anyone else run into people who renamed French kissing Liberty kissing?

i suppose... Just another thing...

I had a former Marine in my old unit. He used to say being in the Army was like a vacation for him.

Join the military and serve.


We will be worse off then....

Did anyone else run into people who renamed French kissing Liberty kissing?

Liberty kissing? Are you serious? Someone actually called it that?

I had a former Marine in my old unit. He used to say being in the Army was like a vacation for him.

There are many of those who cannot handle the heat in the kitchen... They leave the Corps and go into an easier service...

There are many of those who cannot handle the heat in the kitchen... They leave the Corps and go into an easier service...

What's the crappiest branch, in your opinion, oh great Marine?

Liberty kissing? Are you serious? Someone actually called it that?

Yeah, unfortunately. Don't tell me I'm the only one who ran into people like that.

Well, this quickly went from 'Hey, I respect your beliefs, here's mine' to 'your an idiot, idiot' in terms of intelliegence here.

To those of you who have managed not to flame: I commend you.
To those that don't do anything but flame: please go away. Now.

PS made a statement on something he did and why he believed it was right. If this discussion could go anywhere, it would be without all the flaming which really does nothing but make you look like a complete fool. I try to avoid that as much as possible.

To those of you who protest: Excellent. The heart of our democracy (if I may be so bold) lies in those who criticise the government. After all, its what founded our nation and built it to what we see it as now. Make your points, protest, its only a form of suggestion for the government. People will notice, eventually.

To soldiers (note Romanohen): I do not disrespect you nor what you do for the country. Just because I do not agree with what the current administration does however, does not make me unAmerican. Mindless fanatacism is as completely useless as 'hiding under a rock'. Instead of taking blind pride in risking your life, consider another person's point of view.

I applaud PS because he made a statement on what he did concerning his beliefs. I don't consider him anti-American. I don't froth at the mouth at what he did. He made a point. I'm sure everyone here can do that too without degrading yourselves into the dark abyss of flame-hood.

Yeah, unfortunately. Don't tell me I'm the only one who ran into people like that.

To the best of my knowledge, you are.

God I'm sick of sanctimonious bullshit like this from US soldiers. This is your job; you volunteered to do it and you are getting paid to do it. He, or anyone else for that matter, owes you nothing. Deal with it and stop patting yourself on the back thinking you deserve special attention.

gotta comment on this one...
E-4 in the military recieves about $29,000 a year in salary (which includes approx $520/month allowance for housing/food). Now E-4's recieve the same pay regardless of branch, but what differs is how fast they can achieve that level . In the Navy, you can reach E-4 in under a year, provided you are in the right program (very fast) while in the Air Force it takes much longer (much slower.. sometimes as much as 3 or 4 years). Not sure how the army or marines fare.

In San Diego, where a large portion of Navy personnel are stationed the cost of living for a family of 4 is about $50,000, this according to sdlivingwage.org.

I hate cliches but being in the service is not just a job. If it were I would hazard a guess that the vast majority would leave and find substantially better opportunities in the civilian world.

Romanohen does not deserve any special treatment because of his service, but I do believe that he deserves a little gratitude and perhaps a little respect for it (not necessarily for his opinions, but that's another matter).

If anyone truely believes that the level of freedoms enjoyed in the US (freedom to have and speak your own opinion for just one example) could have been achieved, or could be maintained without the sacrifice of people like Romanohen, they are being sorrowfully naive.

gotta comment on this one...
E-4 in the military recieves about $29,000 a year in salary (which includes approx $520/month allowance for housing/food). Now E-4's recieve the same pay regardless of branch, but what differs is how fast they can achieve that level . In the Navy, you can reach E-4 in under a year, provided you are in the right program (very fast) while in the Air Force it takes much longer (much slower.. sometimes as much as 3 or 4 years). Not sure how the army or marines fare.

In San Diego, where a large portion of Navy personnel are stationed the cost of living for a family of 4 is about $50,000, this according to sdlivingwage.org.

I hate cliches but being in the service is not just a job. If it were I would hazard a guess that the vast majority would leave and find substantially better opportunities in the civilian world.

Romanohen does not deserve any special treatment because of his service, but I do believe that he deserves a little gratitude and perhaps a little respect for it (not necessarily for his opinions, but that's another matter).

If anyone truely believes that the level of freedoms enjoyed in the US (freedom to have and speak your own opinion for just one example) could have been achieved, or could be maintained without the sacrifice of people like Romanohen, they are being sorrowfully naive.

I believe when actually serving overseas, service personnel receive a lot of tax-free hazard pay. (They do in Australia and Britain anyhow...don't see why it would be any different)

gotta comment on this one...
E-4 in the military recieves about $29,000 a year in salary (which includes approx $520/month allowance for housing/food). Now E-4's recieve the same pay regardless of branch, but what differs is how fast they can achieve that level . In the Navy, you can reach E-4 in under a year, provided you are in the right program (very fast) while in the Air Force it takes much longer (much slower.. sometimes as much as 3 or 4 years). Not sure how the army or marines fare.

In San Diego, where a large portion of Navy personnel are stationed the cost of living for a family of 4 is about $50,000, this according to sdlivingwage.org.

I hate cliches but being in the service is not just a job. If it were I would hazard a guess that the vast majority would leave and find substantially better opportunities in the civilian world.

Romanohen does not deserve any special treatment because of his service, but I do believe that he deserves a little gratitude and perhaps a little respect for it (not necessarily for his opinions, but that's another matter).

If anyone truely believes that the level of freedoms enjoyed in the US (freedom to have and speak your own opinion for just one example) could have been achieved, or could be maintained without the sacrifice of people like Romanohen, they are being sorrowfully naive.

It took me about 2 years and change to make Specialist.

Romanohen does not deserve any special treatment because of his service, but I do believe that he deserves a little gratitude and perhaps a little respect for it (not necessarily for his opinions, but that's another matter).


I'm not saying to ignore his existence, but that he should not be given special treatment. Everyone who does their job well (so long as said job is beneficial to society) is deserving of gratitude. However, I am not going to pat the back of one group better than another, particularly when people like Romanohen begin demanding it and belittling those who's opinions do not match theirs.

I believe when actually serving overseas, service personnel receive a lot of tax-free hazard pay. (They do in Australia and Britain anyhow...don't see why it would be any different)

Actually there are only a few areas where pay is tax free due to hazardous conditions.
Currently they are:
1.) The Persian Gulf area.

2.) The qualified hazardous duty area of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, and Macedonia

3.) Iraq

4.) Afghanistan

5.) The qualified hazardous duty area of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (Serbia/Montenegro), Albania, the Adriatic Sea, and the Ionian Sea north of the 39th parallel.

There is also different pays above and beyond their base pay and housing allowance, but they are mostly for Sea Pay, Hazardous Duty Pay (like the deck of an aircraft carrier, or somewhere you can get shot at) and other special duty assignment pays. But for the avg John Q. Serviceman, basepay + housing allowance is all you get.

Actually there are only a few areas where pay is tax free due to hazardous conditions.
Currently they are:
1.) The Persian Gulf area.

2.) The qualified hazardous duty area of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, and Macedonia

3.) Iraq

4.) Afghanistan

5.) The qualified hazardous duty area of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (Serbia/Montenegro), Albania, the Adriatic Sea, and the Ionian Sea north of the 39th parallel.

There is also different pays above and beyond their base pay and housing allowance, but they are mostly for Sea Pay, Hazardous Duty Pay (like the deck of an aircraft carrier, or somewhere you can get shot at) and other special duty assignment pays. But for the avg John Q. Serviceman, basepay + housing allowance is all you get.

I'm fairly sure that the soldiers that we have in Liberia (if they're still even there) get hazard pay as well.

Actually there are only a few areas where pay is tax free due to hazardous conditions.
Currently they are:
1.) The Persian Gulf area.

2.) The qualified hazardous duty area of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, and Macedonia

3.) Iraq

4.) Afghanistan

5.) The qualified hazardous duty area of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (Serbia/Montenegro), Albania, the Adriatic Sea, and the Ionian Sea north of the 39th parallel.

There is also different pays above and beyond their base pay and housing allowance, but they are mostly for Sea Pay, Hazardous Duty Pay (like the deck of an aircraft carrier, or somewhere you can get shot at) and other special duty assignment pays. But for the avg John Q. Serviceman, basepay + housing allowance is all you get.

Well, its obviously not something you'd want to make a career out of then, is it?

For reference, my cousin earns $70,000AUD tax free (inc. hazard pay) serving in East Timor. Thats equivalent to around $50k tax free US dollars, and is pretty substantial, especially for someone his age. (I'm looking at 40-50k once i leave university, if lucky)

I'm not saying to ignore his existence, but that he should not be given special treatment. Everyone who does their job well (so long as said job is beneficial to society) is deserving of gratitude. However, I am not going to pat the back of one group better than another, particularly when people like Romanohen begin demanding it and belittling those who's opinions do not match theirs.

Ok, there is a difference between a fast food worker, or even the most renowned plastic surgeon and a member of the US armed forces. Even if said surgeon donated a large portion of his time to work for accident victoms, or correcting physically deforming birth defects to underdeveloped and developing countries. No matter how well he does his job, he in no way is helping to guarantee others their rights and freedom enjoyed in the US.

A service member on the other hand... has made the concious decision to place themselves as a shield between those who would threaten us, or kill us to destroy our way of life, and the people who decry their (the servicemembers) very existance.

A service member on the other hand... has made the concious decision to place themselves as a shield between those who would threaten us, or kill us to destroy our way of life, and the people who decry their (the servicemembers) very existance.

Yes, but there are those soldiers who hold that over the head of citizens as if it makes them different, and they're doing it for the wrong reasons. You're supposed to join the military because you love your country, not because you want to feel better than civilians. Let's not forget that every soldier had their rights defended by another soldier when we were still just civilians.

A service member on the other hand... has made the concious decision to place themselves as a shield between those who would threaten us, or kill us to destroy our way of life, and the people who decry their (the servicemembers) very existance.

That is their choice then.

Yes, but there are those soldiers who hold that over the head of citizens as if it makes them different, and they're doing it for the wrong reasons. You're supposed to join the military because you love your country, not because you want to feel better than civilians. Let's not forget that every soldier had their rights defended by another soldier when we were still just civilians.

That is their choice then.

Let me ask you this. What would you be willing to do for your freedoms?

Let me ask you this. What would you be willing to do for your freedoms?

I'd be willing to die for my freedoms. That's why I joined the Army. But I'm not going to act like that makes me different from anyone else. If a war like WWII were to happen today, I know that every American here would be just as willing to die for their freedoms as I am. In that respect I know I'm not any different. I'm not going to hold it over their heads as if I'm the reason they have their freedoms. I know that if I didn't do it, there are 290 million other people who would be just as willing if they had to.

I'd be willing to die for my freedoms.

I wouldn't be. I'd be willing to kill for them. You can't enjoy freedom if you're dead.

I wouldn't be. I'd be willing to kill for them. You can't enjoy freedom if you're dead.

Shh you.

Shh you.

I LOOOOOOOOVE YOU :P

I wouldn't be. I'd be willing to kill for them. You can't enjoy freedom if you're dead.
as a great man (Stalin, me thinks) once said...

"The point of war isn't to die for your country, it's to make the other bastard die for his."

I'd be willing to die for my freedoms. That's why I joined the Army. But I'm not going to act like that makes me different from anyone else. If a war like WWII were to happen today, I know that every American here would be just as willing to die for their freedoms as I am. In that respect I know I'm not any different. I'm not going to hold it over their heads as if I'm the reason they have their freedoms. I know that if I didn't do it, there are 290 million other people who would be just as willing if they had to.

Where I respect Romanohen's service, and feel gratitude toward him, I dont believe he, or any one should "hold it over their heads". That's the quickest way to piss people off.

I do however understand his anger though, toward people who consider him a "sanctimonious bullshit"-ter.

It's akin to the situation with police in north east Portland OR. The local populace are rabidly anti-police there, to the extent that flyers placing bounties on policemen have been posted around the neighborhood. In a high crime neighborhood like that, what would happen if the police were to just pull out?

The police (and military) do what they can with the resources, and directives they have. You dont need to express daily gratitude to them, but to actively dismiss them, leads them to think "why the hell do I bother" and possibly move on.

I submit that without the servicemembers, we would all sorely rue their absence.

as a great man (Stalin, me thinks) once said...

"The point of war isn't to die for your country, it's to make the other bastard die for his."

Wasnt that Patton?

and perhaps a better quote for this thread...

"It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died. Rather we should thank God that such men lived."
- General George S. Patton, Jr

Oh, and I didn't read the topic...but the original poster makes a good point. Although I think it's pathetic he wanted people to give respect to all those that died in the world, but refused to respect those who died in his own country first. You might as well have said "I don't give a damn"

Doing so was no better than others who didn't respect those who died in Vietnam. As for them, I cannot feel sorry for them because I wasn't alive. Now for Iraqis, those I can feel sorry for. Although I can't connect with them, I think that's why I feel more sorry for an American dying, than an Iraqi dying.

I don't know, I guess we have different ways of thinking, although I still think your being hypocritical about the whole thing.

Wasnt that Patton?
not a clue, I just guessed

as a great man (Stalin, me thinks) once said...

"The point of war isn't to die for your country, it's to make the other bastard die for his."

I believe the correct quote is 'I want you to know that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He did it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country.' - General George S Patton.

not a clue, I just guessed
Found it....

"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.
He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."
- Attributed to General George Patton Jr
(from "A Genius for War" by Carlo d'Este)

We should just have a day to remember all of the dead innocents, no matter who they were. It should be an international holiday.

Definatly. That would be a great idea. Time to start working it in the US.

We should just have a day to remember all of the dead innocents, no matter who they were. It should be an international holiday.
now THAT'S quite possibly the best damn idea yet.

Although, it make contradict people...I mean, I'm sure many people in the world will refuse to take part in it, solely because of their enemies.

But if they don't want to, it's their choice. Kinda like Christmas!

as a great man (Stalin, me thinks) once said...

"The point of war isn't to die for your country, it's to make the other bastard die for his."

It was Patton who said that.

When my school was going to have a 1 minutes silence on September 11th 2003. I purposefully left the room, I was not going to be indoctrinated into believing the murder of innocents (however bad) deserves to be rewarded with Blood Revenge. I asked the Physics teacher why we could not also remember the far greater quantity that have died at the hands of those like Ronald Reagan, George Bush and LBJ? I asked why there was no remembrance for the 2 million N. Vietnamese Civilians who just happened to not support the puppet regime of the south, and thus had to be killed for it. Or those who died in Nicaragua against the Terrorist Contra Army (some estimate at over 100,000 dead), or those who died in Afghanistan and Iraq.

I asked why.... And he didn't have a response, because It's become normal and within society's limits to only remember those whose death is humanized. Did we see the real people when the bombs were dropping on Iraq and Afghanistan, or just some diagram of a JDAM, before a little video of the bomb dropping on a video to the cheers of the American Pilots. I wonder if they had been desensatized so much that they didn't realise the people in that building were actually real people? On quite the contrary, the people who died in 9/11 were constantly humanized, though thier deaths are much less in scale to those murdered in the recent War on Terror, we are constantly reminded that WE NEED BLOOD REVENGE by the media spewing forth endless images of little children reading out the names of their fathers or mothers.

Do or did we see this kind of humanization in Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam or Nicaragua to name just a few? No, they are not mothers, sons, daughters or fathers. They are simply a statistic, a statistic that stood in the way of the American juggernaught for War.

Wow. Just stop caring about everything. Thats what i did. ASlso that moment of silence was to remember YOUR countries dead.

We should just have a day to remember all of the dead innocents, no matter who they were. It should be an international holiday.

I'd be for it. That sounds like a fair deal completely. Trick is to find a day that you think is deserving.

I'd propose Hallow's Day since it is technically the day of the dead, but then everyone would think it a joke since no one celebrates Hallow's Day anymore and everyone in the US celebrates Halloween, which is now a joke of what it once was.

Do or did we see this kind of humanization in Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam or Nicaragua to name just a few? No, they are not mothers, sons, daughters or fathers. They are simply a statistic, a statistic that stood in the way of the American juggernaught for War.
No, because i'm sorry to say that we live in an age of Western supremacy. The West wages wars against the unknown peoples of the Third World. The West always wins. Only western lives matter. Those in the third world whose lives and lands are destroyed get forgotten by the glorious victors...

an eye for an eye makes the world blind

No, because i'm sorry to say that we live in an age of Western supremacy. The West wages wars against the unknown peoples of the Third World. The West always wins. Only western lives matter. Those in the third world whose lives and lands are destroyed get forgotten by the glorious victors...

Thats what I tried to highlight. Humanization only occurs when it is a Western soldier who died. Look at CNBC's 'Fallen Heroes', I wonder if any of the Iraqi's who were killed were considered 'fallen heroes' - Or when CNN interviewed Solbalvarro - they portrayed the man as a 'hero' (http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/cold.war/episodes/18/interviews/sobalvarro/) but neglected to mention the crimes him and his despicable group committed.

so proud,

9/11/04 is coming up, what are you going to do this year?

i understand your reluctance to be a part of a comemoration of a horrible event that has been used to justify war with those who had nothing to do with that event.

perhaps this year you should take the lead time to make your point clearer. im sure there were many people in your school who, like many on this board, thought you were dissing the dead. im thinking you can fingure a way to participate in a moment of silence for our innocent dead while drawing attention to the innocent dead from our actions since 9/11/01.

do you have any plans?

so proud,

9/11/04 is coming up, what are you going to do this year?

i understand your reluctance to be a part of a comemoration of a horrible event that has been used to justify war with those who had nothing to do with that event.

perhaps this year you should take the lead time to make your point clearer. im sure there were many people in your school who, like many on this board, thought you were dissing the dead. im thinking you can fingure a way to participate in a moment of silence for our innocent dead while drawing attention to the innocent dead from our actions since 9/11/01.

do you have any plans?

I plan to make it clear in a speech (I always give speeches to my year) that we all collectively express a wish to not just honour the dead of 9/11 but the dead of the Wars post 9/11. As well as those innocents killed in American conflicts before. Again, I am not 'insulting the dead' - I think using the dead as a pretext for War is one of the most disgusting ways of insulting them possible.

Again, I am not 'insulting the dead' - I think using the dead as a pretext for War is one of the most disgusting ways of insulting them possible.

You might not want to watch the upcoming Republican Convention then.

I think using the dead as a pretext for War is one of the most disgusting ways of insulting them possible.

Just to get an idea of where you are coming from... what is an acceptable pretext for war?

I'm English, but I used to live in the US. The thing is though, sometimes, I got the feeling that only Americans were important in these cases, not just the West. I was around for September 11th. I remember kids in my school excitedly saying how it was 'Just like Red Alert 2.'

I also remember when the US bombed Afghanistan, in the process, killing many innocent people rather than risking soldiers and striking with greater precision.

Anyway, back to my previous point. One example is that in the US, the schools teach only the geography of America, whereas when I came back to the UK, I was taught the geography of the world. OK, that's just an example, and maybe not a great one, so here's another. I was asked by some American friends, whether or not we celebrate the 4th of July in England. What a stupid question that was. But I guess you could just brush that aside. They were only 11. But my father was also asked the same thing by a colleague. Maybe they should have stopped and considered whether we would celebrate a war that we lost.

Whew, that's really just me blowing off steam though. Hell I'm gonna be flamed to a crisp within a few days. ;)

On a slightly different note, I have heard people refer to 'French Fries' and french toast as 'Freedom Fries' and 'Freedom Toast' respectively.

Now isn't that just laughable?


Personally I agree with PS and his ilk. If you sign up for service in the US armed forces, that gives you no right to turn around to citizens and say 'Oy, we're sticking up for your rights, so you should stop exercising them and become a mindless drone serving only the American government.'

Staging a walk-out of the minute's silence was a very good means of protesting. Hell, I'm sure many more would have walked out if there was a minute's silence to remember the Iraqi's and not the Americans who died in the Iraq war.

*Ducks incoming barrage of flames*

I plan to make it clear in a speech (I always give speeches to my year) that we all collectively express a wish to not just honour the dead of 9/11 but the dead of the Wars post 9/11. As well as those innocents killed in American conflicts before. Again, I am not 'insulting the dead' - I think using the dead as a pretext for War is one of the most disgusting ways of insulting them possible.

What do you think the U.S. should have done after 9-11?

Anyway, back to my previous point. One example is that in the US, the schools teach only the geography of America, whereas when I came back to the UK, I was taught the geography of the world. OK, that's just an example, and maybe not a great one, so here's another. I was asked by some American friends, whether or not we celebrate the 4th of July in England. What a stupid question that was. But I guess you could just brush that aside. They were only 11.


They teach world history/geography too, but I think you must've left before they got to it. In my state, you start with local history in grade school and then go to state -> country -> world geography -> world history -> and then US government

I don't think you should worry too much about the way 11 year olds thought that 9/11 was like red alert...

On a slightly different note, I have heard people refer to 'French Fries' and french toast as 'Freedom Fries' and 'Freedom Toast' respectively.

Now isn't that just laughable?


Yeah...uh...no one actually does that....

They teach world history/geography too, but I think you must've left before they got to it. In my state, you start with local history in grade school and then go to state -> country -> world geography -> world history -> and then US government

I don't think you should worry too much about the way 11 year olds thought that 9/11 was like red alert...

Yeah, I left in 6th grade, so I guess I don't know a huge amount about the education system.


Oh, and there was a guy in my old school who did. Not in America, but he was American.

People like you shouldn't be allowed in America. The reason that we need blood revenge is because AMERICANS were killed on AMERICAN soil by dirty terrorists, we AMERICANS have they right to protect ourselves and revenge our fallen. I don't know if your just un-patriotic or Anti-American but how can you not want the bloodiest of blood revenge on those who viciously murdered
3000 Americans going about their daily business. When september 11 happened I would have support a nuclear strike on every location UBL was suspected at.

Oh please. You are the kind which shouldn't be American.
Americans were killed by a group of free citizens, not a nationstate. There is no reason and never was a reason for attacking Afganistan, Iraq, or any other such countries. And why, are you so arrogant, and confident in your nation - which is not one race but several - is so much better than others? What about floods, famines and fires? They kill innocents and you seem to not care less about the Genocide in Rwanda that is the Killing of innocents by other poeple. And at least there there is more evidence to support action against a nation.

The comment about nuclear weapons? Give me a break. There is only one situation in which they can be used - a direct attack by a soverign body using chemical, biological or radiological agents, the so-called Weapons of mass destruction. Can you be the tiniest bit sensative?

And if you think about it, your call is for war against the state you are presumably accusing. This makes the attack an act of wr, and so justifies it, and means that according to you, 9/11 was no where near as bad as american attacks on nationstates, for equally bad reasons, especcially in South America.

So please give a little respect to sense, to diplomacy over blind hatred, and to cool headedness. Maybe if there were less people who respond like you then wars would be averted and we could avoid pointless conflict.

Thank you.

well I killed this thread off pretty well... oops.

Yes, the Cold War was definitly messy times. I think the US didn't make the right choices sometimes.
But rest assured that this is not our underlying principle. If a fascist regime kills its own citizens, what's in it for us? Not much. The alliances were all to defeat a mutual threat: the Soviet Union.
This is the philosophy used ever since 1648 by most developed nations: in the Peace of Westphalia, which pretty much ended the Thirty Years' War, it stated that every country was completely sovereign. What happened inside that nation was no business of the other nations.
Needless to say, I'm against this principle. The US, both the people and the government, are not interested in people being ruthlessly murdered. The Peace of Westphalia, and many, many subsequent documents, prevent intervention, while upholding the system of foreign policy that has been followed for ages. I'm sorta surprised you don't think highly of US foreign policy today. It has thrown 363 years of restrictive rules on foreign policy right out the window. And I couldn't be happier.