NationStates Jolt Archive

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Once again, you make a useless point out of half truths, to lessen the imoact of the jewish holocuast, by pointing oit other ones, that were done by people with the same hatred, and mindset as you?

How is that doing anything for your cause?

Anytime massive amounts of people are slaughtered, its BAD THING.

You suck.

In my eyes, it's a six-way tie.

If I have one frustration is that only two of these atrocities are taught in high school history classes. It's one of the major flaws of the american education system.

In my eyes, it's a six-way tie.

If I have one frustration is that only two of these atrocities are taught in high school history classes. It's one of the major flaws of the american education system.


Well said, Clown-Person!

Now, do something funny!

but do it a ways back becuase clowns still scare me a little

*juggles pickles and scalpels*

Like cross-breeding humans, I look for new combinations to juggle that nobody ever tried. :)

*juggles pickles and scalpels*

Like cross-breeding humans, I look for new combinations to juggle that nobody ever tried. :)


Thank you.

Although, any clown with an affinity for blades, is precisely why Im a little leery of em.

Question: How do you know, exactly, that all "liberals" do ignore these other atrocities? I've heard of all of them, and while I don't consider myself a liberal, as a socialist I suppose I would be considered as a "liberal" by conservative people. I find every single one of them sickening, disturbing, and terrible; they are all terrible, and one being larger than another does not lessen the effect on the rest of them.

Question to Holocaust deniers, too: Since you don't think that Hitler could kill all of those people in that time, do you believe that the aforementioned genocides happened? If you do acknowledge their existence, why?

But I'm just curious about what people think about this holocaust stuff. Why is it that the "average person" knows so much about the Jewish holocaust but so little about all the others. Could it be because Jews are so influential in the media and make sure that their particular holocaust is well documented - and actually made to sound as if it is more important - than all the rest?

The fact that Jews have been particularly active in memorializing the destruction of their relatives and culture should not be interpreted as giving it more "value" or "importance" than other mass murders throughout history.

I for one would like to see similar developments among the other communities you mentioned- I think all of the above groups should be vocal and active in reminding people that their people were killed, why they were killed, and also in making them understand exactly what was lost. Education seems to be a major factor- people can't mourn or appreciate a loss until they're educated about exactly what it is that happened.

Also, for the record: I was never taught about ANY of the Holocausts you mentioned in school. I had to go out and do research on my own.

Simply because something is important- and I believe the Holocaust IS important- does not mean that everything else must somehow LOSE importance.

Also, for the record: I was never taught about ANY of the Holocausts you mentioned in school.

You just know someone is going to claim that this is because "the Jews" control everything. *rolls eyes*

The German one that everyone knows about - the Nazis killed 6 million Jews?

Stalin's man-made famine to force collectivization that killed 5-10 million Ukrainians?

Mao’s Cultural Revolution in Communist China that killed 20 million people?

Pol Pot’s communist regime that murdered about 1/5th of the population of Cambodia in the 1970’s?

Turkey’s murder of more than 2 million Armenians, Greeks, Nestorians and Christians between 1900 and 1923?

The Rwanda genocide of 1994 that killed perhaps a million people in only three months?


I'm a fascist, open and avowed, so I may not be impartial about this question, admitted. But I'm just curious about what people think about this holocaust stuff. Why is it that the "average person" knows so much about the Jewish holocaust but so little about all the others. Could it be because Jews are so influential in the media and make sure that their particular holocaust is well documented - and actually made to sound as if it is more important - than all the rest?

Or is it because liberals find the Jewish holocaust to be a particular affront - the fact that Jews (and others) were killed in the camps for being "different", or "inferior". In our multi-cultural society that must be viewed to be the ultimate crime?

I guess it never occurs to liberals that the philosophy they adore so much - that of equality - was responsible for the Soviet, Chinese, and Cambodian holocausts. But no one ever suggested that liberals really had any coherent philosophy. Oh well.

-Actually it was 12 million people in the "overhyped" Holocaust. 6 million Jews, and 6 million blacks, gays, elderly, crippled, Poles, gypsies, and everyone else Hitler happened to want to get rid of.

-Hoping for equality amongst people no matter their race, gender, sexuality, ethnicity, religion, socioeconomic background, is in NO way equatable to robbing people of their individuality / murdering to make everyone the same.

-As far as I'm concerned, you're the one who lacks a coherent philosophy.

-Being a "fascist" doesn't necessitate that you act like a hateful prick; even if that is what you think it may mean.

You just know someone is going to claim that this is because "the Jews" control everything. *rolls eyes*

No, no, when I said "any", I meant just that. I didn't learn about ANY of them, the Nazi Holocaust included. I had to go to the library and look information up on my own.

Of course, I went to a private school, but still, if you buy into the "Jewish dissemination" theory, the "Jewish Holocaust overattention" should have trickled down into the private schools, too.

Every holocaust is as bad as each other, regardless if one killed 10 million and another killed 1 million.

-Actually it was 12 million people in the "overhyped" Holocaust. 6 million Jews, and 6 million blacks, gays, elderly, crippled, Poles, gypsies, and everyone else Hitler happened to want to get rid of.

-Hoping for equality amongst people no matter their race, gender, sexuality, ethnicity, religion, socioeconomic background, is in NO way equatable to robbing people of their individuality / murdering to make everyone the same.

-As far as I'm concerned, you're the one who lacks a coherent philosophy.

-Being a "fascist" doesn't necessitate that you act like a hateful prick; even if that is what you think it may mean.

Also, the German Holocaust and the Armenian Genocide are special in that they were genocides, specially planned to eliminate people of a specific ethnicity.

I think it is probably do to the fact that the nazi holocaust has that whole WW2 thing attached to it. A lot of countries were involved in the war which might have something to do with why its taught.

I think it is probably do to the fact that the nazi holocaust has that whole WW2 thing attached to it. A lot of countries were involved in the war which might have something to do with why its taught.

Very good point....and plus, for European countries, it's a European affair and so it's even more likely to be taught.

Yes, the bottom line is, any 7th grader has heard of all of these holocausts, even in America.

I think it's that the Armenian genocide isn't mentioned enough in the US, and that the Rwanda genocide is too recent to think of, also.

As ever, the so called question is skewed and twisted with its obvious agenda to provoke. However, there is a simple answer to the main belly of the question. By 'we' the filth means the nations that fought Nazi Germany. And therein lies the answer. 'We' remember the Jewish Holocaust clearly and with certainty because 'we' were instrumental in stopping it. Most of us with a residue of a brain are well aware of the 'other' mass murders and supposed ethnic cleansing but our history, even our personal family histories, is/are bound forever into the struggle with the lunatic Hitler and his swaggering 'friends and allies'.

It says much about the insecurity of peoples beliefs and faith when they persistantly ask 'questions' about something they have already made up their minds about.

Very good point....and plus, for European countries, it's a European affair and so it's even more likely to be taught.
It might also be the industrialisation of mass murder that makes it stand out. Stalin may have killed more and it may have been his intention to do so, but he did not set up an industry to do it and recyle specs, gold teeth etc. I think that is why that one stands out.

They all suck, darling.
Enough people mentioned the reasons the Jewish one stands out, I personally think it's because the Germans, who were always thought of as advanced and cultural, made such a death industry and all.

By the way, if estimations are right, there's another one in Sudan.

I used to want to have a list of all genocides, but it's impossible to get all of them.

The Jewish holocaust was tied to World War Two. Unless there is a World War Three, it will forever be well known.

Stalin and Mao's regimes were tied to a corrupted form of communism. And if there's one thing the West can't stand, it's communism.

The rest were.... obscure.

If there is any measure to tragedy, it has to be based on the ability to prevent or disrupt the tragedy before it became one. While all were mind-numbingly, hand-weakeningly terrible...one stand out to me.

Rwanda. Of them all, none were as preventable or as readily known to the overseers in the international community.

Rwanda was failed by the UN and the world. The supposed "watchdogs" turned a blind eye while the slaughter took place. The humanitarians didn't care, or were too busy protesting to notice.

And in the end, all the survivors gained was a list of apologies which to me all reek of vile, life-squelching irony:

"In the face of genocide, there can be no standing aside, no looking away, no neutrality -- there are perpetrators and there are victims; there is evil and there is evil's harvest." - Kofi Annan


http://wwww.reliefweb.int/w/rwb.nsf/s/27D9E544E4EA8E88C12565FD00486834

No, no, when I said "any", I meant just that. I didn't learn about ANY of them, the Nazi Holocaust included. I had to go to the library and look information up on my own.

Oh, really? Well, that's odd... I was sure at least the Nazi Holocaust was learned about in the majority of schools. Ah well, you learn something new.

-Actually it was 12 million people in the "overhyped" Holocaust. 6 million Jews, and 6 million blacks, gays, elderly, crippled, Poles, gypsies, and everyone else Hitler happened to want to get rid of.

Hmm... that is including all the Slavs killed by the Nazis during the push into Russia, that number, isn't it? But yes, people need to remember that a lot of other people died in the concentration camps as well - dissidents and trade unionists, too.

Also, the German Holocaust and the Armenian Genocide are special in that they were genocides, specially planned to eliminate people of a specific ethnicity.

So was the Rwandan one.

Every holocaust is as bad as each other, regardless if one killed 10 million and another killed 1 million.

How can u say that?! That is like saying that 1 is not a greater number than 2! Is it not a simple numerical fact? While i do agree that all holocausts are terrible events, i also think that the number of people involved has a bearing upon it.

How can you rate halocausts?? How can you say "oh the Hitler Regime Halocaust was quite good compared to the one imposed by Stalin" Its not right you grade these things, The death of women, children and men is not something to be made comparable to each other, each one is already worst enough.

How can u say that?! That is like saying that 1 is not a greater number than 2! Is it not a simple numerical fact? While i do agree that all holocausts are terrible events, i also think that the number of people involved has a bearing upon it.

But then you have to take into account the proportion of ppl slaughtered. The Rwandan massacre 'only' killed 1 million, but this was 1/2 the Tutsi population and in less than 6 months. The Nazi Holocaust killed 6 million jews in 12 years, which amounted to the equivalent of 1/3 of the German Jewish population at the time.
So which is worse?
Once you get to these sorts of figures, does it matter? All are abhorent.

BTW it's good to see some others brought up the fact that 12 mill died in the Holocaust, not just 6 million Jews. It bothers and annoys the hell out of me that the media(including movies such as 'Schindlers list') invariably uses only the 6mill Jews figure.
I feel that doing this ignores the suffering caused by the other 6 million. I especially dislike hearing Jewish spokesppl saying "we can never forget the 6 million dead" because that implicitly implies it's ok to forget the other 6 million. Surely they of all ppl are aware of how it must feel to the other sufferers on hearing such statements. It's only a matter of time before it becomes the accepted figure for the Holocaust, which means they've done 1/2 the work of David Irving for him.

Incidently, you could argue tht Mao was responsible for far more than 'just' 20 million dead. His 'Great Leap Forward' in the 1960s resulted in an estimated 60 million starving to death. So while it wasn't the intention of the program, surely it should be added to his tally as he should be held responsible for those deaths.

Once again, you make a useless point out of half truths, to lessen the imoact of the jewish holocuast, by pointing oit other ones, that were done by people with the same hatred, and mindset as you?

How is that doing anything for your cause?

Anytime massive amounts of people are slaughtered, its BAD THING.

You suck.

The only thing that sucks is that you decided to come on here drunker than hell! (Or does your spelling just naturally stink?)

The German one that everyone knows about - the Nazis killed 6 million Jews?

Stalin's man-made famine to force collectivization that killed 5-10 million Ukrainians?

Mao’s Cultural Revolution in Communist China that killed 20 million people?

Pol Pot’s communist regime that murdered about 1/5th of the population of Cambodia in the 1970’s?

Turkey’s murder of more than 2 million Armenians, Greeks, Nestorians and Christians between 1900 and 1923?

The Rwanda genocide of 1994 that killed perhaps a million people in only three months?


Cambodia actually killed closer to about 1/4-1/3

You also left out Yugoslavia, Belgian Congo, Liberia, Sierra Leone, Somalia, Ethiopia, Angola, and many more.

Of all the so-called Communist holocausts, I think Ethiopia might have been by far the worst, with Mengistu and his stalinist goons intentionally engineering a man made famine that killed over a million people from rival ethnic groups. Stalin, on the other hand, may not have been nearly as systematic as we tend to think in the Ukrainian holocaust as there were other factors in the food shortage. The Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution didn't kill CLOSE to 20 million people in China; you're probably thinking of the Great Leap Forward, which actually did alot to modernize agricuture and again wasn't systematic slaughter; you had a significant amount of those who perished being landlords murderered by angry landless peasants (i.e. their former surfs) and a great deal of suffering caused by the following famine. A famine caused by a natural drought that wasn't really Mao's fault.

Cambodia's woe has the US and its bombing campaign to blame for its woes as much as the Khmer rouge.. so I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say the Jewish and Armenian holocausts were worse because they were fa more deliberate, systematic, and cruel.

Of all the so-called Communist holocausts, I think Ethiopia might have been by far the worst, with Mengistu and his stalinist goons intentionally engineering a man made famine that killed over a million people from rival ethnic groups. Stalin, on the other hand, may not have been nearly as systematic as we tend to think in the Ukrainian holocaust as there were other factors in the food shortage. The Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution didn't kill CLOSE to 20 million people in China; you're probably thinking of the Great Leap Forward, which actually did alot to modernize agricuture and again wasn't systematic slaughter; you had a significant amount of those who perished being landlords murderered by angry landless peasants (i.e. their former surfs) and a great deal of suffering caused by the following famine. A famine caused by a natural drought that wasn't really Mao's fault.

Cambodia's woe has the US and its bombing campaign to blame for its woes as much as the Khmer rouge.. so I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say the Jewish and Armenian holocausts were worse because they were fa more deliberate, systematic, and cruel.


Japanese campaign in ww2 in China was brutal and killed millions, they also were systematic and deliberate.

Also, the German Holocaust and the Armenian Genocide are special in that they were genocides, specially planned to eliminate people of a specific ethnicity.

So was the one in Rwanda....

They all suck, darling.
Enough people mentioned the reasons the Jewish one stands out, I personally think it's because the Germans, who were always thought of as advanced and cultural, made such a death industry and all.

By the way, if estimations are right, there's another one in Sudan.

I used to want to have a list of all genocides, but it's impossible to get all of them.

i think you hit the nail on the head, AK

the germans were rightfullly considered to be cultured cilivilized people. they had great philosphers, theologians, scientists, artists, composers, scholars

for such a people to sink to the barbarism of the holocaust makes one question everything they believe about humanity. other mass murders we can write off to "barbarians" or "they just arent like us" but the germans ARE us. if they can do things so horrible that you can't even bear to read about them, then anyone can.

It'd have to be a tie between Mao's, Hitler's, Pol Pot's, and Stalin's. But the thing I think people fail to realize is that Hitler killed more than Jews. It was also Slavs, Catholics, communists, and polictical opponets. It was totaled to 11 million since 1941 alone.

An excellent book I'd recommend to everyone is Death by Government by Prof. R.J. Rummel. Meticulously researched and drawn from over a thousand ( :eek: ) sources, it examines virtually every 20th century dictator on both the left and right, in exhaustive detail. Highly recommended.

What about Ho Chi Minh? He slaughtered well over a million people. The North Vietnamese, in general, have slaughtered at least 2,800,000 people, the vast majority of which were Vietnamese.

...people mentioned the reasons the Jewish one stands out...There is no valid reason for the Jewish one to stand out...

...the fact that 12 mill died in the Holocaust, not just 6 million Jews.we dont know that as a FACT...
We dont know if the grand total is 12...or 6 ....or 2...or 24 million...they did not count the Bodies...
and we dont know how many were actually Jews...

*smack*
when its in your "back yard" it stands out

the problem isnt that we remember the jewish holocaust, its that we ignore the others.

The atrocities list-

The German one that everyone knows about - the Nazis killed 6 million Jews?

Stalin's man-made famine to force collectivization that killed 5-10 million Ukrainians?

Mao’s Cultural Revolution in Communist China that killed 20 million people?

Pol Pot’s communist regime that murdered about 1/5th of the population of Cambodia in the 1970’s?

Turkey’s murder of more than 2 million Armenians, Greeks, Nestorians and Christians between 1900 and 1923?

The Rwanda genocide of 1994 that killed perhaps a million people in only three months?

how many of those involved gas chambers, cremetoriums, Camps that did nothing but murder people all day, goverment contracts to decide who can kill for the cheapest?

FYI stalin wasnt trying to kill the Ukranians. The POINT was to make collectives.

FYI Mao wasnt trying to kill the Chinese. The POINT was to a (misguided) Revolution.

I could go on, but in all those cases, exept Rowanda, the genocide was a side effect. Horrible, but still not the main point. But in The Holocaust the Genocide was THE POINT. THE POINT WAS TO KILL PEOPLE, and 12 million were killed, half of them jews.

bidding to kill people with rat poison? I think thats the worst.

If I have one frustration is that only two of these atrocities are taught in high school history classes. It's one of the major flaws of the american education system.

I'd take issue with the discrepancies between high schools. I attended an average HS in Texas (class of 1986) and all those mentioned in the OP, with the exception of Rawanda (had yet to happen), were taught. Additionally, the Japanese attrocities in China and the horror that was the Belgian Congo were also taught. The others I saw mentioned were, IIRC, either on current or occured after I graduated.

we dont know that as a FACT...
We dont know if the grand total is 12...or 6 ....or 2...or 24 million...they did not count the Bodies...
and we dont know how many were actually Jews...The same for most other Holocausts...we dont have reliable body counts...

Still...all the horror makes me sad...

specially the Jewish, Armenian and African ones....

I dont know enough about the Pol-poh one....

we dont know that as a FACT...
We dont know if the grand total is 12...or 6 ....or 2...or 24 million...they did not count the Bodies...

True, since many of the bodies were cremated. However, the Nazis kept fairly meticulous records, particularly at actual concentration and extermination camps. You're correct, though, the best anyone has are estimates. But even allowing for margins of error, those estimates are pretty horrific.

and we dont know how many were actually Jews...

Well, we have Jewish population data from before the war, and Jewish population data after the war, and more or less accurate estimates of Jewish emigration DURING the war. So from those figures (even the post-war statistics, which are notoriously problematic), we can already make a decent approximation.

The real difficulty comes in determining who you count as "Jewish". What about Jews that were members of the Red Army, for instance, who, if captured, would have been both enemy soldiers, political dissidents (Communists) and Jews? What category should they be counted under?

Belgian Congo were also taught.


I am talking about the 1960 decolonization war in the Belgian Congo, not the Leopold II and his alleged exploitation of the natives in the late 1800s.

The 1960 removal of belgian rule, almost overnight, resulted in massacres against whites and black tribes massacring rival black tribes. It was awful, at least hundreds of thousands directly killed by it, many more by the affects (Starvation, disease, etc) that come with anarchy.

The UN committed innumerable barbarous atrocities in the Belgian Congo, against the people of Katanga. Read all about it in:

1.Rebels, Mercenaries, and Dividends: The Katanga Story
2.46 Angry Men
3.Who Killed the Congo?

I am talking about the 1960 decolonization war in the Belgian Congo, not the Leopold II and his alleged exploitation of the natives in the late 1800s.

The 1960 removal of belgian rule, almost overnight, resulted in massacres against whites and black tribes massacring rival black tribes. It was awful, at least hundreds of thousands directly killed by it, many more by the affects (Starvation, disease, etc) that come with anarchy.

But does war and anarchy count as a "holocaust" or genocide? I mean, if we're going to call every war a holocaust, then the word becomes meaningless, doesn't it? And let's be honest, there aren't enough days in the school year for kids to study- or even be exposed to- every major event that happened in the last 100 years in AMERICA, much less all over the world.

Furthermore, history is more than JUST war, desctruction, and murder. Other components have their place in the classroom, too, and if all you teach is Holocausts or Genocides, they'll all start to blend together after a while, and the kids won't care.

IMO, it's best to look at a wide selection of Holocausts/Genocides in the last 100 years, and focus on a few of them to teach about, all the while reminding students that many more have occured. Give them lists of resources where they can find out more. Assign reports for topics that haven't been covered. Also, teach comparitively- how are the Nazi Holocaust and the deaths caused by the USSR different or similar, for instance? Are there any common links or threads present in all or mosts of the 20th century's major massacres?

Just my thoughts.

I say that all mass murders are bad, but the inevidable effect of authoritarian governments, both capitalist and "communist".

So was the one in Rwanda....

Of course, my apologies, I'm just not at all used to thinking of that having happened in the last century.

The German one that everyone knows about - the Nazis killed 6 million Jews?

Stalin's man-made famine to force collectivization that killed 5-10 million Ukrainians?

Mao’s Cultural Revolution in Communist China that killed 20 million people?

Pol Pot’s communist regime that murdered about 1/5th of the population of Cambodia in the 1970’s?

Turkey’s murder of more than 2 million Armenians, Greeks, Nestorians and Christians between 1900 and 1923?

The Rwanda genocide of 1994 that killed perhaps a million people in only three months?


I'm a fascist, open and avowed, so I may not be impartial about this question, admitted. But I'm just curious about what people think about this holocaust stuff. Why is it that the "average person" knows so much about the Jewish holocaust but so little about all the others. Could it be because Jews are so influential in the media and make sure that their particular holocaust is well documented - and actually made to sound as if it is more important - than all the rest?

Or is it because liberals find the Jewish holocaust to be a particular affront - the fact that Jews (and others) were killed in the camps for being "different", or "inferior". In our multi-cultural society that must be viewed to be the ultimate crime?

I guess it never occurs to liberals that the philosophy they adore so much - that of equality - was responsible for the Soviet, Chinese, and Cambodian holocausts. But no one ever suggested that liberals really had any coherent philosophy. Oh well.

I think that it is definitely true that influential Jewish people have brought the German holocaust into the public eye more than other holocausts of our time, but I also think that because it was the largest of the premeditated and specific acts of genocide it gets special attention. In the case of Mao and Stalin they did not sit there and say "let's kill all X" in the same way that Hitler did. They had other motives and the deaths were essentially secondary. It could be argued that Hitler had the ulterior motive of uniting the German people, but he didn't say that's what he wanted to do, he said "let's kill all Jews." Also, in our (American's) Amerocentric mindset, Hitler is the worst because we fought against him and for no other reason. We didn't deal directly with Stalin's or Mao's acts of genocide and we didn't fight a war of words and guns to stop what they stand for in the same way we did against Nazis in WWII. The fight of Capitalism against Communism having never been fought on the native soil of either of the primary combatants, does not have the same emotional power as WWII.

Really... I think enough people have pointed out how stupid it is to compare these masacres... still fyi, the Nazis murdered 6 million Jews and 4 to 5 million others. (Romany, Gays, Political prisoners, disabled people). By the by considerig you chaps got hit for six by the USA and the Soviet Union round about 60 years ago... How old are you?