NationStates Jolt Archive

If you're not Catholic or can't offer a reasonable suggestion, please stay away, thanks.
Let's start out simple:
Why do Catholics pray to saints?

Do Catholics pray TO saints?

We pray with saints, not to them.
Have you ever asked anyone to pray for you when you were having a hard time? Why did you choose to ask that person?

You may have chosen someone you could trust, or someone who understood your problem, or someone who was close to God. Those are all reasons we ask saints to pray for us in times of trouble.

Since saints led holy lives and are close to God in heaven, we feel that their prayers are particularly effective. Often we ask particular saints to pray for us if we feel they have a particular interest in our problem. For example, many people ask Saint Monica to pray for them if they have trouble with unanswered prayers, because Monica prayed for twenty years for her son to be converted. Finally her prayers were answered in a way she never dreamed of -- her son, Augustine, became a canonized saint and a Doctor of the Church.

http://www.catholic.org/saints/faq.php#pray

Where in the Bible does it say that some people's prayers, especially dead people's, are more effective than any one else's?

Where in the Bible does it say that some people's prayers, especially dead people's, are more effective than any one else's?Precious in the sight of the Lord Is the death of His saints.

Psalms 116:15, The New King James Version

Precious in the sight of the Lord Is the death of His saints.
Not prayer.

Precious in the sight of the Lord Is the death of His saints.
Not prayer.
Thier deaths make their prayer precious to him.

So you commune with the Dead to get them to pray for you?

Maybe they just don't want to be left out when the Saints come marching in.

Seriously, though, saints are supposed to be more approachable than God. Saints were, after all, human once, and therefore may have a more empathic understanding of human problems. It's like there is a chain of command. Humans pray to saints, and then saints pray for you to God. The idea is that a saints prayers are more important. However, some Catholics seem to take saints a little too far, especially some Hispanic Catholics who almost worship them.

So you commune with the Dead to get them to pray for you?
God no, I wish we had the old forums back. My title thingy under my name there was "Faithful Athiest". I am avowdly athiest, like my nation's government.

Nonetheless; I'm armed with Google.com and bible.crosswalk.com,

27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

Romans 8:27-28

Precious in the sight of the Lord Is the death of His saints.

Psalms 116:15, The New King James Version

Wait a minute, that implies god likes to watch his saints die.

Wait a minute, that implies god likes to watch his saints die.
No, their deaths are his preciousss as he uh... welcomes them to heaven...

If you're not Catholic or can't offer a reasonable suggestion, please stay away, thanks.
Let's start out simple:
Why do Catholics pray to saints?
Just out of curiosity, what's the point of the question? Are you trying to learn about Catholicism or are you trying to bait Catholics into a discussion of their beliefs so you can somehow "prove them wrong"?

Just out of curiosity, what's the point of the question? Are you trying to learn about Catholicism or are you trying to bait Catholics into a discussion of their beliefs so you can somehow "prove them wrong"?
Judging by the responses to this thread...the latter.

Yes, they do. I went to Catholic school, and we were taught to pray to saints so they might "intercede" for us with God. Frankly, I just go to the Boss. Who needs to grovel to the "help", so to speak?

Seriously, though, saints are supposed to be more approachable than God. Saints were, after all, human once, and therefore may have a more empathic understanding of human problems. It's like there is a chain of command. Humans pray to saints, and then saints pray for you to God. The idea is that a saints prayers are more important. However, some Catholics seem to take saints a little too far, especially some Hispanic Catholics who almost worship them.Hmm, in all my years of Catholic education I never heard this one. Under Catholic doctrine it is wrong to pray to saints, one can only ask saints to pray for one. One of the most common "prayers" to a saint is the Ave Maria: "Holy Mary, Mother of God
Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death."

As a side note: I go to a Catholic school and we pray every morning to St. Ignnatious of Loyola. I don't think I spelled that right. But we pray to him, not with him.

Hmm, in all my years of Catholic education I never heard this one. Under Catholic doctrine it is wrong to pray to saints, one can only ask saints to pray for one. One of the most common "prayers" to a saint is the Ave Maria: "Holy Mary, Mother of God
Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death."

Yes that is what I meant. People pray to saints to ask the saints to pray for them, not to ask the saints to DO anything miraculous. You just mistook my usage of the word "to", and perhaps what I meant by the word "pray". I use the term pray whenever a person tries to have some sort of contact with the spiritual world, not to imply that they are asking for some sort of divine intervention.

As a side note: I go to a Catholic school and we pray every morning to St. Ignnatious of Loyola. I don't think I spelled that right. But we pray to him, not with him.
Well then you ought to speak to someone about that. Prayer should only be to G-d in His manifestations, or as a complete Godhead. It's kinda ironic since Ignatious was famous for his meditations which warns of this error. It was always made clear to us that prayers directed to the Saints were prayers to G-d through the Saints. Likewise when praying to the wounlds of Christ, one is not praying to a physical object (idolatry) but instead to Christ using the woulnds as an image for Christ.

As a side note: I go to a Catholic school and we pray every morning to St. Ignnatious of Loyola. I don't think I spelled that right. But we pray to him, not with him.
Does Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam mean anything to you?

ON SAINTS:

This is how my Sunday school teacher explained it to me, and in such a way that everything made sense.

See, technically we are ALL saints. The living walking about on Earth are "The Saints Militant," and the people who have died and are in heaven are "The Saints Triumphant." So in that sense, the only difference between the living and the dead is a change in address. So since you ask the living to pray for/with you at times, it's a small stretch to see why asking someone dead to do the same would make sense.

So, all of the people in heaven are saints. My grandma could be a saint. The key is, she is a saint IF SHE IS IN HEAVEN. Now, I think so, so does my family, but the official church's position is that she probably is, but who knows what the heck my grandma did during her life that only God knows about, or what she was thinking upon her death, so while they hope she is, they're not going to bet the farm on it, and they're not going to officially and publically cofirm that Lower Aquatica's Grandmother Is Verily In Heaven, Hallelujiah.

So why are there canonized saints? Well, ALL people who are in heaven are saints, as we said; but, only God knows for sure who has and who hasn't, so the church rarely makes a guess about who has and hasn't. The publically canonized saints are the exceptions -- these are people who have lived such pious and holy lives that the church is publically saying, "Well, we don't know for 100% iron-clad sure who is in heaven, but come on, in THIS case it's a safe bet this person is."

So there you are.

Mind you, I fully understand that some non-Catholics are going to disagree with the sense in this. And, that's fine -- I am perfectly comfortable accepting that some disagree. I only ask that those who do disagree, respect that there are those that DO agree, and it's not because they're silly. There is a logic in the argument there. Disagree with it if you like, but understand it's not all coming from totally nowhere is all.

its not unlike some people being comfortable with writing directly to the president to ask him to take care of some problem and someone else deciding that they need a little influence so they ask their senator to talk to the president for them

its just a matter of style. this is why there are so many denominations, different styles work for different people.

But that makes it sound like just praying by yourself isn't enough.

So I pray, "Hey God, could you please give me the strength to deal with problem A?"

And God isn't convinced. So I pray to St. Paul or something, "Hey Paul, could you ask God to give the the strength to deal with problem A?"

So God says, "Hmm. I wasn't going to help you before, but if Paul thinks it's a swell idea..."

But that makes it sound like just praying by yourself isn't enough.

So I pray, "Hey God, could you please give me the strength to deal with problem A?"

And God isn't convinced. So I pray to St. Paul or something, "Hey Paul, could you ask God to give the the strength to deal with problem A?"

So God says, "Hmm. I wasn't going to help you before, but if Paul thinks it's a swell idea..."

I always thought of it as more like asking for a letter of recommendation from someone when you apply for a job or for to a college or something. You make your own pitch to the head of the company or whatever, but you have someone with some clout also speaking on your behalf as well as a second opinion.

I always thought of it as more like asking for a letter of recommendation from someone when you apply for a job or for to a college or something. You make your own pitch to the head of the company or whatever, but you have someone with some clout also speaking on your behalf as well as a second opinion.

But isn't part of the point of Christianity that you and the Boss are buddies? If he sent his only Son, what wouldn't he do?

If you're not Catholic or can't offer a reasonable suggestion, please stay away, thanks.
Let's start out simple:
Why do Catholics pray to saints?

It's Pagan actually.

Levantine Christianity in the Holy Land had no tradition of prayer to saints or the Virgin Mary, it was invented sometime around the 6th century and has no scriptural basis whatsoever.

Martin Luther knew this. He knew that other aspects of Catholic Christianity were also Pagan. The robes, incense, hierarchical structure, church building design and ritual style were all derived from Roman State Paganism, not the religion of Paul. This is why all of those features were expunged from Luther's Christianity, and Protestantism was born.

Christianity spread quickly in Italian cities but was resisted in the country. Italian folk religion of the Roman period was based on the animistic worship of the "Lasa." Lasas were nature spirits, male or female. Every tree, river, stone, locality, town or home had it's own guardian Lasas. Every Roman home had statues of it's Lasa with offerings of flowers, candles, etc. - exactly the way saints are honoured today. Christian missionaries in rural areas encouraged peasants to pay honour to Christian holy persons instead of the Lasas (and to the Virgin instead of the Goddess) but made no effort to change the way they were honoured. This is why saints and the Virgin are so central to Catholicism (especially in Italy) and why towns, countries and organisations still have Patron Saints (i.e. guardian Lasas)

This is a very potted summary and my apologies to any Pagans or Streghe who may think I've missed something important. Ironically, many Protestants will readily agree with the Pagans as to this version of events. Most Catholics will screech like singed cats. Sorry, but it's all true...

But isn't part of the point of Christianity that you and the Boss are buddies? If he sent his only Son, what wouldn't he do?

Different denominations of Christianity think differently about different things.

If you're really trying to understand the situation, it may help you to first let go of some stereotypical assumptions you seem to be holding, such as "all Christians think God is their buddy" or "No real Christian would [fill in the blank] because the Bible said so in paragraph Q of chapter 239". If, instead, as I suspect, you're trying to engage in a debate in order to "prove to these silly Christians that what they believe is stupid," perhaps being more honest about your intentions would be better bait.

Different denominations of Christianity think differently about different things.

If you're really trying to understand the situation, it may help you to first let go of some stereotypical assumptions you seem to be holding, such as "all Christians think God is their buddy" or "No real Christian would [fill in the blank] because the Bible said so in paragraph Q of chapter 239". If, instead, as I suspect, you're trying to engage in a debate in order to "prove to these silly Christians that what they believe is stupid," perhaps being more honest about your intentions would be better bait.

I'm a Protestant, and as such I'm really trying to understand. I accept that God is my buddy and that he'll listen to my prayers. Is it really flamebaiting to suggest that all Christians think this? I think it's reasonable. I know I should avoid using the word, "all", but I just assume that people will think I'm not crazy.

Also, Wicker Men, is your name a reference to the movie, "The Wicker Man"?

Because I *hated* that movie. But whatever.

I'm a Protestant, and as such I'm really trying to understand. I accept that God is my buddy and that he'll listen to my prayers. Is it really flamebaiting to suggest that all Christians think this? I think it's reasonable. I know I should avoid using the word, "all", but I just assume that people will think I'm not crazy.

My apologies. I've run into a very similarly-phrased argument to yours elsewhere, only it was coming from an atheist hell-bent on trashing religion in general; I assumed incorrectly this was what was happening here.

I should issue the disclaimer that while I was raised Catholic, I no longer observe (not because I personally dislike the religion, it was more like it was no longer the right fit). So I there may be some memory decay. But, I do read up on a lot of religions still, so that helps counter that.

As for the "God as buddy" issue -- well, different strokes for different folks, maybe. I have had bosses that were also buddies, but all the while, I was still very aware they were my boss as well, and the relationship was therefore a different KIND of buddy relationship than I have with people who are ONLY buddies. Even here, there are some people that DO get to be pals with their boss, and ARE able to forget the "boss" part.

Neither approach is right, or wrong. It all depends on which way people are more comfortable in their walk with God -- some feel He is more approachable seeing Him as a friend, and drawing close to Him that way, others actually do feel more comfortable if they also acknowledge God as Leader as well as Friend.

Personally, my own cosmology holds that God not only doesn't care either way, He actually LIKES each of us to find our own way to relate to Him, and He's just sitting there saying, "Hey, whatever works, it's cool with Me."

When in need entreat the Father, in fear of Him entreat the Son, in fear of him entreat the Mother. When none is left go entreat the Saints least ye perish ignoblily.

in italy saints are important figures, and i could say that people don't pray WITH saints, but TO saints.

ppl asks a saint for a miracle, another for good luck and so on.

"official" interpretation should be that Mr. GoodBoy preaches to Saint Itakecare

if saint itakecare thinks mr goodboy is, actually, worthy of help, then he will intercede with God to help Mr GoodBoy.

That help could come from God or From The saint itself.

Cheers
Ps: i am atheist, but as every italian, had some degrees of chatolic teachings on me... these are just old, so i could be wrong, but i can assure that this is about 80% of what people thinks when praying.
Pps: it's scaringly how some people uses the bible literally to solve these issues

Christianity spread quickly in Italian cities but was resisted in the country. Italian folk religion of the Roman period was based on the animistic worship of the "Lasa." Lasas were nature spirits, male or female. Every tree, river, stone, locality, town or home had it's own guardian Lasas. Every Roman home had statues of it's Lasa with offerings of flowers, candles, etc. - exactly the way saints are honoured today. Christian missionaries in rural areas encouraged peasants to pay honour to Christian holy persons instead of the Lasas (and to the Virgin instead of the Goddess) but made no effort to change the way they were honoured. This is why saints and the Virgin are so central to Catholicism (especially in Italy) and why towns, countries and organisations still have Patron Saints (i.e. guardian Lasas)

that 100% correct, so it makes me wonder... only italy got Patron saints in towns?

cheers

that 100% correct, so it makes me wonder... only italy got Patron saints in towns?

Paris has a patron saint (Genevieve I believe)

Paris has a patron saint (Genevieve I believe)

guess they just exported the habit to other regions, then

Also, Wicker Men, is your name a reference to the movie, "The Wicker Man"?

Because I *hated* that movie. But whatever.

1. Yes.

2. What exactly did you hate about it? I'm curious, really.

2a. Yes, it's OT. But now I*must* know.

that 100% correct, so it makes me wonder... only italy got Patron saints in towns?

cheers

It happens in a lot of Mexicans towns actually (and even in the country as a whole, Virgin of Guadalupe is Mexico's empress, mostly because she resembled a godess worshiped by the Aztecs), but not so much with saints as with virgins like Our lady of *something*.

guess they just exported the habit to other regions, then

I think you put your finger on it. The Catholic Church as an institution is nothing if not traditionalist. If a method works - use it.

Also, as Rocktitlan pointed out, the worship of nature spirits was by no means confined to the ancient Italians. Wherever missionaries travelled they found peoples with similar beliefs and converted them all the same way.
:)

1. Yes.

2. What exactly did you hate about it? I'm curious, really.

2a. Yes, it's OT. But now I*must* know.

The plot just sort of really rubbed me the wrong way. A fine upstanding police officer, a Christian to boot, tries to uncover the whereabouts of a little girl and instead gets burned alive in a giant wicker man as a part of a pagan sacrificial ceremony.

I give the movie a little bit of props because I had such a reaction, and most movies appeal to the lowest common denominator and try not to offend anyone. But I really identified with the police officer, and then he dies a horrible death.

Maybe I didn't like it because I didn't understand its theme (or didn't buy it). I think it was aiming at the universal truth of all religions, something I find distasteful. I didn't think the point was that this police officer has a big tragic flaw in pushing his religion on others. I think it transcended tragic flaws to just kill a fine upstanding human being, making the audience go "Whoah". It certainly had that effect on me.

The plot just sort of really rubbed me the wrong way. A fine upstanding police officer, a Christian to boot, tries to uncover the whereabouts of a little girl and instead gets burned alive in a giant wicker man as a part of a pagan sacrificial ceremony.

I give the movie a little bit of props because I had such a reaction, and most movies appeal to the lowest common denominator and try not to offend anyone. But I really identified with the police officer, and then he dies a horrible death.

Maybe I didn't like it because I didn't understand its theme (or didn't buy it). I think it was aiming at the universal truth of all religions, something I find distasteful. I didn't think the point was that this police officer has a big tragic flaw in pushing his religion on others. I think it transcended tragic flaws to just kill a fine upstanding human being, making the audience go "Whoah". It certainly had that effect on me.

I know a lot of Pagans who watch that movie at parties the way other people watch Star Wars. It usually involves getting hammered and pointing and laughing at poor Sgt. Howie (since you gave away the ending :gundge: ) as he goes up in flames, screaming to Jesus the whole time.

Pagans put up with so much, and have little opportunity to get a little of their own back; so one treasures the little pleasures in life.

The Wicker Man isn't about "the universal truth in all religions" though. It's really about religious intolerance and how it blinds people to the obvious and ultimately strips them of their humanity.

Sgt. Howie is a close-minded zealot. His blinkered ignorance and refusal to even try to empathise with the islanders renders him incapable of recognising the blindingly obvious. The only person who doesn't see the ending of that movie coming 20 minutes ahead is him.

The islanders are inbred maniacs. Howie may have "a big tragic flaw" but ultimately it is the Pagans who push their religion on him, in a very real and permanent way. Any reasonably knowlegable Pagan will tell you that there are other, more effective ways to ensure a good harvest. But did they bother to research anything past "Human Sacrifice?" Nooo... :eek:

So two scary, fundamentalist worlds collide, with results calculated to entertain disaffected teenagers for decades to come. Could this be the way that the Islamic world and the Christian West will play out? Both sides are dehumanised by the process (in Howie's case, carbonised). Listen - really listen - to Howie's warning speech to the High Priest Christopher Lee: "Next time the crops fail, they'll burn YOU on Mayday!" And they will too. You can see the realisation in his face.

Damn, it's good movie. I think I'm going to go watch it right now...

But really, this is WAY off topic. If anyone's interested in pursuing this topic Let me know and I'll start a new thread.