NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/08/19/communion.denied.ap/index.html

So, how does this affect the concept of transubstatiation? Does this mean the Catholic Church, on the whole, is going to buck popular culture and reject low-carb diets?

Is eating the flesh of Christ really required?

Is eating the flesh of Christ really required?

Apparently.

Also, Jesus appears to be high in carbs.

Hungry?
Break off a peice of my friend jesus here.
Try not to hit a vein though, you're a mean drunk, and that 2000 year old wine is bad for your digestive system.

this is just wrong

Well, with all the weight she's losing from that low carb diet it wont be so hot in hell for her.

She does not receive the physical communion if it is impossible. She can receive spiritual communion each day as St. Clare did.

**Haley Waldman grabs a wafer and jumps up onto the alter**
"Snap into Jesus, OH YA!!!!"
**Haley eats the wafer**

One year later she discovers that she really snapped into heaven.











on another note, good thing she's going to hell and not those boy touching priests... :rolleyes:

**Haley Waldman grabs a wafer and jumps up onto the alter**
"Snap into Jesus, OH YA!!!!"
*Haley eats the wafer*

One year later she discovers that she really snapped into heaven.











on another note, good thing she's going to hell and not those boy touching priests... :rolleyes:

Dude, the Catholic Church is the beast, didnt you know that?

Apparently.

Also, Jesus appears to be high in carbs.
Does this mean that's it also a sin to do the Atkins Diet?

Heh, that article made me sick. I'd count myself lucky if I had that disease and so wasn't made by my parents to join the church.

:headbang: Things like this make me mad. :mad:

It's gluten not carbs. Say it with me gluten!

The girl has "celiac sprue disease." She is not on the Atkins diet.

(Like the average person on the Atkins diet is in ketosis to begin with?)

Anyway you can now continue with your hatred for the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Anyway you can now continue with your hatred for the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.Right on.

*torches the Vatican*

Wierd...My friend's dad has the same problem as her, he can't eat Gluten...but they made an exception for him at my Catholic Church...

*rolls eyes* When is this superstitious crap gonna die out already?

:headbang: Things like this make me mad. :mad:

It's gluten not carbs. Say it with me gluten!

The girl has "celiac sprue disease." She is not on the Atkins diet.

(Like the average person on the Atkins diet is in ketosis to begin with?)

Anyway you can now continue with your hatred for the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
The word "humor" is not in your dictionary?

Wierd...My friend's dad has the same problem as her, he can't eat Gluten...but they made an exception for him at my Catholic Church...

Good to know, that not all Catholic dioceses (correct plural?) are doing such things. I don't think (personally) that God is legalistic to the degree some ultra-conservatives seem to think.

This would not be an issue in my church (Methodist). We don't even use real wine for Communion, for instance--grape juice is used instead. The way it's seen in the Methodist church (and other Protestant denominations as well?) is that the bread and wine are symbols. It is what goes on spiritually in a person that matters, not what is actually ingested. The reason for the ritual is to help the person partaking to reflect upon Christ's sacrifice. The key is the state of mind. That's why substitution to something else is not a problem. As I said...we pretty much do that normally, anyway. (I'd think that some Methodist congregations somewhere I don't know about may use real wine, but none that I have attended has. It's at least clear to me that substitution is well accepted.)

This would not be an issue in my church (Methodist). We don't even use real wine for Communion, for instance--grape juice is used instead. The way it's seen in the Methodist church (and other Protestant denominations as well?) is that the bread and wine are symbols. It is what goes on spiritually in a person that matters, not what is actually ingested. The reason for the ritual is to help the person partaking to reflect upon Christ's sacrifice. The key is the state of mind. That's why substitution to something else is not a problem. As I said...we pretty much do that normally, anyway. (I'd think that some Methodist congregations somewhere I don't know about may use real wine, but none that I have attended has. It's at least clear to me that substitution is well accepted.)
I don't understand how this is a problem. I can remember in my old parish (Catholic) the priest was a reformed Alcoholic, so had grape juice too.

I think this has little to do Catholicism and everything to do with morons.

That's religion for ya.

Apparently.

Also, Jesus appears to be high in carbs.

lol

While I support the Pope for trying to repair damage between the world's religions, as well as fighting for peace, I wish that the RCC would be a bit more lenient in situations like this

Good to know, that not all Catholic dioceses (correct plural?) are doing such things. I don't think (personally) that God is legalistic to the degree some ultra-conservatives seem to think.

This would not be an issue in my church (Methodist). We don't even use real wine for Communion, for instance--grape juice is used instead. The way it's seen in the Methodist church (and other Protestant denominations as well?) is that the bread and wine are symbols. It is what goes on spiritually in a person that matters, not what is actually ingested. The reason for the ritual is to help the person partaking to reflect upon Christ's sacrifice. The key is the state of mind. That's why substitution to something else is not a problem. As I said...we pretty much do that normally, anyway. (I'd think that some Methodist congregations somewhere I don't know about may use real wine, but none that I have attended has. It's at least clear to me that substitution is well accepted.)

But, according to the Catholic Church, the bread (or wafer) and wine are not there just for spiritual reflection, but transubstantiation actually occurs. The wafer and wine actually become flesh and blood and you partake of it. Apparently, God can turn unleavened bread and wine into flesh and blood, but can't turn rice and grape juice into flesh and blood. ::sigh::

But, according to the Catholic Church, the bread (or wafer) and wine are not there just for spiritual reflection, but transubstantiation actually occurs. The wafer and wine actually become flesh and blood and you partake of it. Apparently, God can turn unleavened bread and wine into flesh and blood, but can't turn rice and grape juice into flesh and blood. ::sigh::

I don't know why He couldn't. But then again, as I said before, I'm not Catholic, so I do not claim to be an expert on the doctrine of transubstantiation. While I've read about it, it's not a part of my belief or upbringing.

As a Catholic, I am appalled. I thought we were moving away from acting like a large cult, and being a genuine religion. I guess this isn't so.
BTW, the act of communion is where Catholics believe that we eat the body and blood of Christ. That sets us apart, as we don't believe that they are merely signs. After communion, you pray. It's really a nice experience, as it does help one to reflect on the suffering of our Lord, Jesus Christ. Therefore, I don't see why a rice wafer should be a bad thing. Jesus loved the lame, he didn't shun them. The Church should emulate his example.

Apparently, God can turn unleavened bread and wine into flesh and blood

"Unleavened Bread" - why dont Catholics just eat Matzoh then? :rolleyes:

This is stupid. The woman should just leave the Catholic faith. There is no point in sacrificing anything as important as her child's health for it no matter how deeply effected you are by this faith in your family tradition. She could perhaps move to a different diocese, but even then, it isn't worth sacrificing that much money, memories from their current home; just so that they can go to Communion and have their sacrament valid.

As a Catholic, I am appalled. I thought we were moving away from acting like a large cult, and being a genuine religion. I guess this isn't so.
BTW, the act of communion is where Catholics believe that we eat the body and blood of Christ. That sets us apart, as we don't believe that they are merely signs. After communion, you pray. It's really a nice experience, as it does help one to reflect on the suffering of our Lord, Jesus Christ. Therefore, I don't see why a rice wafer should be a bad thing. Jesus loved the lame, he didn't shun them. The Church should emulate his example.

With all due respect intended, I think more may be required from the laypeople in the Catholic Church in order to help bring such changes about. You guys are a part of it, too, and when things go too far there's no reason you should have to just shut up and tolerate it. I'm not suggesting you have to leave your church, but rather help to reform it from within. I hope this is not offensive to Catholics, but here's how I see it as someone outside your church. All of us were asked to respond to God--and this is why the idea of a church and worship were originally put into place. But just like anything that's been given over to us human beings to take care of, there are problems! I just think that some people (not you in particular, of course, you seem to be sufficiently mindful) have forgotten this aspect of it, that because of the human involvement there's apt to be cases where things break down. Those breakdowns are things everybody needs to be involved in addressing, not just those in the hierarchy. I know some people are trying. But I think there really needs to be even more.

[QUOTE=Berkylvania]http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/08/19/communion.denied.ap/index.html[QUOTE]

The really creepy bit for me is the kids' attitude:
"She lives in a world of rules. She says 'Mommy, do we want to break a rule? Are we breaking a rule?"' :headbang:

Jesus Mary and Joseph, talk about a one-way ticket to dysfunction. The poor kid is probably convinced that Satan's poo-demons will fly out of her backside if she doesn't clench continually.

*rolls eyes* When is this superstitious crap gonna die out already?

never. that's how the whole thing works - keep 'em scared and they'll never question you. Religion should be about questioning other human's interpretations of religion, else scripture can be distorted by the clever to use the stupid, or do I mean faithful?

hmm...if only the Catholic Church had some sort of a beurocracy in a central location to study the Bible and Church Dogma to find a solution to this problem and issue an edict

TO THE POPEMOBILE!!! <theme music>

this is why we have a pope, it'll get sorted out

As a Catholic, I am appalled. I thought we were moving away from acting like a large cult, and being a genuine religion. I guess this isn't so.
BTW, the act of communion is where Catholics believe that we eat the body and blood of Christ. That sets us apart, as we don't believe that they are merely signs. After communion, you pray. It's really a nice experience, as it does help one to reflect on the suffering of our Lord, Jesus Christ. Therefore, I don't see why a rice wafer should be a bad thing. Jesus loved the lame, he didn't shun them. The Church should emulate his example.

honey, we are

but seeing as how this would involve changeing a 2,000 year old sacred practice your work a day parish priest probobly isn't qualified to make the call

so its been passed up to the management, they'll sort it out

hmm...if only the Catholic Church had some sort of a beurocracy in a central location to study the Bible and Church Dogma to find a solution to this problem and issue an edict

TO THE POPEMOBILE!!! <theme music>

this is why we have a pope, it'll get sorted out

The pope will probably tell her to eat it anyway, wheat or no wheat. It would fit with other things coming out of the Vatican.

This is stupid. The woman should just leave the Catholic faith. There is no point in sacrificing anything as important as her child's health for it no matter how deeply effected you are by this faith in your family tradition. She could perhaps move to a different diocese, but even then, it isn't worth sacrificing that much money, memories from their current home; just so that they can go to Communion and have their sacrament valid.

or maybe you could write a letter to the Vatican and have the issue resolved in a few months?

With all due respect intended, I think more may be required from the laypeople in the Catholic Church in order to help bring such changes about. You guys are a part of it, too, and when things go too far there's no reason you should have to just shut up and tolerate it. I'm not suggesting you have to leave your church, but rather help to reform it from within. I hope this is not offensive to Catholics, but here's how I see it as someone outside your church. All of us were asked to respond to God--and this is why the idea of a church and worship were originally put into place. But just like anything that's been given over to us human beings to take care of, there are problems! I just think that some people (not you in particular, of course, you seem to be sufficiently mindful) have forgotten this aspect of it, that because of the human involvement there's apt to be cases where things break down. Those breakdowns are things everybody needs to be involved in addressing, not just those in the hierarchy. I know some people are trying. But I think there really needs to be even more.


its cause we have day jobs

so we pass on the task to the super-stars to theology - the clergy

they have study the Bible, Church dogma and history and can devote their lives to these issues and are a hell of alot more qualified to make a chage that some one whos worrying about his kids, job and that morgage

its cause we have day jobs

so we pass on the task to the super-stars to theology - the clergy

they have study the Bible, Church dogma and history and can devote their lives to these issues and are a hell of alot more qualified to make a chage that some one whos worrying about his kids, job and that morgage

No offence, but do you really want to let a bunch of men who historically have often chosen to ignore evidence, hide things, and do whatever they can to make themselves look "infallible" to make your religious decisions for you? These are people who teach their own historically inaccurate version of how the church evolved so that they can look good to the Catholic (and non-Catholic) people. Do you really want to trust them and consider them "qualified" to make decisions for you, job or no job?

With all due respect intended, I think more may be required from the laypeople in the Catholic Church in order to help bring such changes about. You guys are a part of it, too, and when things go too far there's no reason you should have to just shut up and tolerate it. I'm not suggesting you have to leave your church, but rather help to reform it from within. I hope this is not offensive to Catholics, but here's how I see it as someone outside your church. All of us were asked to respond to God--and this is why the idea of a church and worship were originally put into place. But just like anything that's been given over to us human beings to take care of, there are problems! I just think that some people (not you in particular, of course, you seem to be sufficiently mindful) have forgotten this aspect of it, that because of the human involvement there's apt to be cases where things break down. Those breakdowns are things everybody needs to be involved in addressing, not just those in the hierarchy. I know some people are trying. But I think there really needs to be even more.

Reform the Church, reform the Church, where have I heard this before? *Scratches head*

No offence, but do you really want to let a bunch of men who historically have often chosen to ignore evidence, hide things, and do whatever they can to make themselves look "infallible" to make your religious decisions for you? These are people who teach their own historically inaccurate version of how the church evolved so that they can look good to the Catholic (and non-Catholic) people. Do you really want to trust them and consider them "qualified" to make decisions for you, job or no job?

yes, far far far more qualified

especially now with the media reporting their every move and now that they have to give theological justification (now in english) for everything major decision they make

THANK YOU :D
it's good to know there's someone with a brain here. :)

:headbang: Things like this make me mad. :mad:

It's gluten not carbs. Say it with me gluten!

The girl has "celiac sprue disease." She is not on the Atkins diet.

(Like the average person on the Atkins diet is in ketosis to begin with?)

Anyway you can now continue with your hatred for the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

She SHOULD go to Hell. She can't take a little earthly pain for the eternal passcode into Heaven? She isn't a real Catholic. Back in the day people were tortured to death for the priveledge of being Catholic. Kids these days have it easy. Eat the WAFER or BURN!

Reform the Church, reform the Church, where have I heard this before? *Scratches head*

I guess my "Protestant" is showing. ;)

But I'm not suggesting that the Catholic Church break up. It would be very sad to have another division like that...I just think that it would help matters if more people took an active interest in their faith, to help be a part of the solution instead of sitting by the sidelines. While clergy members may have more education, I don't think that absolves others from responsibility to reason and act morally to deal with it when something's gone wrong.

*strong bad style voice*

Can't eat wheat?
Is Jesus too high in carbs for you?
Do you find grape juice offensive?
Then convert to some other religion, where no one gives a crap what you eat!
-----------
well, granted there's the burger and beer thing with hinduism and islam, respectively, but as far as i know, no one else gives a crap what you eat.
yay for spiritualism, where you can make up whatever the hell you want.
i was gonna do something way more offensive, but i thought better of it.

The Benedictine Sisters of Perpetual Adoration of Clyde, MO have developed a nearly gluten-free host is safe for those with celiac disease and has been approved by the Vatican. This was mentioned in the CBS News broadcast version of the story though not in the web version.

You gotta draw the line somewhere. Every expection chips something from the Catholic Church's authority.

The Lutheran church has become a big pussy that allows everything. Ooh! You killed someone. Good thing God is forgiving.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/08/19/communion.denied.ap/index.html

So, how does this affect the concept of transubstatiation? Does this mean the Catholic Church, on the whole, is going to buck popular culture and reject low-carb diets?

Bahh were all going to hell, whats the difference!

Reform the Church, reform the Church, where have I heard this before? *Scratches head*
Whatzisname, that German fella? Nailed things to church doors, got a civil rights activist named after him? ;)

I guess my "Protestant" is showing. ;)

But I'm not suggesting that the Catholic Church break up. It would be very sad to have another division like that...I just think that it would help matters if more people took an active interest in their faith, to help be a part of the solution instead of sitting by the sidelines. While clergy members may have more education, I don't think that absolves others from responsibility to reason and act morally to deal with it when something's gone wrong.Well, right. It was Luther's intention to Reform the Church- he never wanted to split it, at least at first. But the Church doesn't really take kindly to reform, so he split. Has this changed in 500 years?

Reform the Church, reform the Church, where have I heard this before? *Scratches head*
John Wycliffe
Bernard of Clairvaux
Adrian of Utrecht
Erasmus
Savonarola?
on
and
on and
on

And they're just the Catholic ones. :D

Well, right. It was Luther's intention to Reform the Church- he never wanted to split it, at least at first. But the Church doesn't really take kindly to reform,

Certain powerful factions within the Church didn't want to reform (esp the Cardinals). Many thought that he had valid critisicms

so he split.

After being trapped in a Theological debate with the Dominicanes (iirc) into denying the supremacy of the papacy.

It was said later (although I forget by who and when). That the reformation was caused by an arguement between two drunken German monks.

Well, right. It was Luther's intention to Reform the Church- he never wanted to split it, at least at first. But the Church doesn't really take kindly to reform, so he split. Has this changed in 500 years?

In all honesty I am not sure. I'd have to read up on more recent major attempts at reform to get a feel for the answer to that (particularly those that may have been in the 20th century forward). From my observations on the scandal involving abusive priests, it does seem that the Vatican is quite resistant to reform or acknowledging a wrong. I say "the Vatican" specifically because I don't think this sort of attitude is true of all the laypeople, OR even all clergy...even though from my point of view it looks like the resistant ones have got much more power.

On the other hand, I'm curious to know if Catholicism has ever experienced such a deep schism in the past 500 years as the Reformation or the first schism where the Orthodox Church broke off. Perhaps things could be dealt with better now if a major reform movement started...but I do understand that another split would be a potential risk. I do hope that wouldn't happen, though.

Wow.

On the other hand, I'm curious to know if Catholicism has ever experienced such a deep schism in the past 500 years as the Reformation or the first schism where the Orthodox Church broke off.

It has always had a problem with 'heresy.' Influential people would provide a more preferencial religion to people , they usually appealed to those towards the bottom of the Feudal scale. But not all the time, Raymond (IV?) of Toulose is a good example of this. Even though he didn't outwardly proclaim the Cathar faith, he did heavily sympathise with it, and even protect the Cathars from Rome (provide he wasn't risking his head of course).

There was also the Cult or Heresy of the Free Spirit, which was a pantheistic form of Christianity (and is claimed by some as the first large Anarchist movement).

http://www.dhushara.com/book/consum/free.htm

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Free_Spirit

Also worth looking for are individuals who created quite a large stir with there religious outlook, such as John Ball (who's most famous quote I carry in my sig), John Wycliffe, Bernard of Clairvaux (sort of, more like an early church reformer) and Savonarola. Interestingly, many of these 'heretics' usually had a clerical background, which was probably from where they drew their authority (in the four I just mentioned, the firt two were priests and the last two were monks. Also remember, Luther was a monk too).

Perhaps things could be dealt with better now if a major reform movement started...but I do understand that another split would be a potential risk. I do hope that wouldn't happen, though.
Not so sure if it would work without resulting in a split. The current Pope, iirc, got very hot under the collar with a sect of Catholicism denying the immaculate conception (one of the few things declared ex cathedra), he also got very annoyed with Arrupe for allowing the Jesuits in Latin America to use Marxist theory to help teach the locals a way to interprete their society.

Also the Vatican has frequently proven itself as being too slow to act, and it usually results in too much too late.

Wow.
Are you really that surprised?

Right on.

*torches the Vatican*


*starts handing out graham crackers, chocolate bars and marshmallows* Now this is how you make a smore ^_^

*starts handing out graham crackers, chocolate bars and marshmallows* Now this is how you make a smore ^_^

S'more.

Hmmm...

So, what part of Christ does this turn into?

*starts handing out graham crackers, chocolate bars and marshmallows* Now this is how you make a smore ^_^

You do know the history of Graham crackers, right? It's almost relevent here.

You do know the history of Graham crackers, right? It's almost relevent here.
:confused: Why's that so? Tell me. :confused:

:confused: Why's that so? Tell me. :confused:

Graham Crackers were invented by a minister by the last name of Graham because he intended them to be an anti-aphrodesiac so good little boys and girls could resist tempation. True story.

Graham Crackers were invented by a minister by the last name of Graham because he intended them to be an anti-aphrodesiac so good little boys and girls could resist tempation. True story.
http://www.snopes.com/food/origins/graham.htm
]This is just here so I am not accused of not reading the articleStatus: True.

Uhhh, hello, Catholic Church, get with the program, shutup about that invalid shit.

Graham Crackers were invented by a minister by the last name of Graham because he intended them to be an anti-aphrodesiac so good little boys and girls could resist tempation. True story.


Thanks for putting up this information. :)

*now makes more smores.* mmmmmm nummy ^_^

*scampers off with the chocolate and nibbles on it in a corner.*

Mmm... Hersheys ^_^

Are you really that surprised?

I am, actually. It's surprising and depressing.

What's a S'more?

Meh, I ouldn'r care less about this story, completly anti-religion, and proud! If she isn't alowed in why doesn't she just go and piss them off by saying that she's away to become a Muslim, he he.

I find it a bit stupid thuogh how she's not alowed into the Catholic church, though, to be honest, a lot of the stuff is out-of-date, such as it's not accepted to use contraceptives, it's just pointless.

What's a S'more?

Meh, I ouldn'r care less about this story, completly anti-religion, and proud! If she isn't alowed in why doesn't she just go and piss them off by saying that she's away to become a Muslim, he he.

I find it a bit stupid thuogh how she's not alowed into the Catholic church, though, to be honest, a lot of the stuff is out-of-date, such as it's not accepted to use contraceptives, it's just pointless.
Chocolate, Marshmellows and Graham crackers, melted and stacked on each other.

MMM

on another note, good thing she's going to hell and not those boy touching priests... :rolleyes:

Yeah, seems that hell will be the place where...everybody is going. Heaven's a club that serves no alcohol and permits no dancing except square dancing.

Wierd...My friend's dad has the same problem as her, he can't eat Gluten...but they made an exception for him at my Catholic Church...

Exceptions have been made in mnay places, I believe with Vatican approval. Besides which, it would be sufficient for her to take only from the cup and not eat the host, it would still be a valid Eucharist. The Trenton diocese really fumbled this one.

Yeah, seems that hell will be the place where...everybody is going. Heaven's a club that serves no alcohol and permits no dancing except square dancing.

Not square dancing!

that is a load of crap. there's a woman in my church (and i'm a catholic) who's can't eat wheat and she just has the wine. it doesn't mean she's going to hell! she can't help it and obviously she wouldn't be punished for it! that's just stupid!

On the other hand, I'm curious to know if Catholicism has ever experienced such a deep schism in the past 500 years as the Reformation or the first schism where the Orthodox Church broke off.

One of the things the Catholics and the Orthodox split up over was whether the bread should be leavened or not. Here we go again...

I don't know why everyone is making such a big deal out of this. The Catholic Church denies Eucharist to many people. Non-Catholics, Catholics who are deemed "too young," Catholics who are halfway intelligent and active in politics, people who are allergic to incense (in some places), etc., etc.

We'll just add one more to the list - little girls who can't eat wheat.

*rolls eyes* When is this superstitious crap gonna die out already?
superstitious, eh? Answer something, where do our souls go when we die? What created the universe? the big bang, yes, but what created the big bang? Whether you believe it or not, there is a superior being than us. So, you go ahead and say its all superstitious bullshit, but at least some people know it isn't.

( Ok, i'm ready for the entire NS community to gang up on me. :p)

Well, if this little girl really wanted to go to heaven, she wouldn't have been born allergic to wheat. It's her fault, really.

Seriously, though, how cool would it be for this girl if she got the Vatican to issue an edict directly relating to her? That's the kind of thing that would reinforce her faith forever, having the Pope personally change Catholic dogma for her.

superstitious, eh? Answer something, where do our souls go when we die? What created the universe? the big bang, yes, but what created the big bang? Whether you believe it or not, there is a superior being than us. So, you go ahead and say its all superstitious bullshit, but at least some people know it isn't.

( Ok, i'm ready for the entire NS community to gang up on me. :p)



Superstitious as in wheat is actually the body of Christ and you're going to hell if you don't have wheat in your Communion bread.

But, according to the Catholic Church, the bread (or wafer) and wine are not there just for spiritual reflection, but transubstantiation actually occurs. The wafer and wine actually become flesh and blood and you partake of it. Apparently, God can turn unleavened bread and wine into flesh and blood, but can't turn rice and grape juice into flesh and blood. ::sigh::

it's stupid...but I think it has to do with the jewish rituals surrounding passover, which is the meal christ was partaking of in the last supper, which in turn is what christians are immitating, he supposedly said "do this in rememberance of me" while eating the meal, which allways consisted of unleavened bread - in rememberance of the jews not having time to bake their bread before they left egypt. There's some cultural stigma about leavened vs unleavened bread and I think the exact constitution of the wafer is considered to be important for this reason. Rice wasn't used in the origional passover meals. Frankly if god regularly turns crackers and grape jucie into holy cadaver, he could probably handle the rice too - but whatever.

The catholic religion is a fraud...it is designed to scare and control you. People who are to weak to accept reality and the enevitability of death turn to religon as a way of escape and continue with their denial. Come on people when will you open your eyes and really look at it for what it is?

Apparently.

Also, Jesus appears to be high in carbs.


LMAO Ok, no offense to the catholics, but that was just VERY funny! And we all know God has a sense of humor, just look at the Duck Billed Platypus ;)

LMAO Ok, no offense to the catholics, but that was just VERY funny! And we all know God has a sense of humor, just look at the Duck Billed Platypus ;)

...We apologize to any duck billed platypus enthusiasts...

Come on people when will you open your eyes and really look at it for what it is?

What, a shameless shill for the National Wheat Growers Association?

http://www.wheatworld.org/index.cfm

Whatzisname, that German fella? Nailed things to church doors, got a civil rights activist named after him? ;)

Martin Luther. I respected that man alot, then I heard he advocated the burning down of jewish homes and the stealing of their valuables. Such is christianity *rolls eyes*

...We apologize to any duck billed platypus enthusiasts...


Ahem. Duck billed platypi are lovely creatures and I retract any defamatory statement that may have lead anyone to believe I thought otherwise (I think I'm getting the hang of this 'Head of State' thing :-D).

superstitious, eh? Answer something, where do our souls go when we die? What created the universe? the big bang, yes, but what created the big bang? Whether you believe it or not, there is a superior being than us. So, you go ahead and say its all superstitious bullshit, but at least some people know it isn't.

( Ok, i'm ready for the entire NS community to gang up on me. :p)

um, there are hundreds (probably thousands) of other religious interpretations that don't involve the catholic faith. literalist christianity is ludacris in the extreme.

The catholic religion is a fraud...it is designed to scare and control you. People who are to weak to accept reality and the enevitability of death turn to religon as a way of escape and continue with their denial. Come on people when will you open your eyes and really look at it for what it is?

please don't dismiss all religion because one of them is moronic and disgusting.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/08/19/communion.denied.ap/index.html

So, how does this affect the concept of transubstatiation? Does this mean the Catholic Church, on the whole, is going to buck popular culture and reject low-carb diets?

She must be gluten, not wheat-allergic, and Catholic Church HAS YET taken care to supply gluten-free wafers for people suffering that disease. U must be not so well informed.

Whoa boy does the world frighten me these days. I'm fairly new to the faith (been Christian for a year since 3 days ago, yay!) but I've been studying it greatly in that time in order to catch up. Incidentally, my AP European History Class followed the birth of the Church up to nearly its current position. Honestly, I think if most Catholics knew where their church had been... they wouldn't want to touch it either.

Since day one (the fall of Rome) the Archbishop of Rome, (the Pope now for all who don't know it) felt the urge to unite the church, which is a good thing, by way of making a hierarchy and organized system of religion, which was also a good thing, all totally based on what he felt like. That last part was kind of what has set people off. The Catholic Church WAS the only power in Europe until the Reformation. Before that, the Pope controlled international politics in Europe, arranged marriages and interceded in wars. Even long after the Popes tried to wield serious power, and after the Reformation, they began to tighten down on things.

For example, they had long before the Reformation and even until 1960 made it effectively so only priests were A.) Educated, as only the rich and the Church could afford to be taught Latin and B.) Able to interoperate the Word. This prevented the common man from ever understanding what in blazes was going on with the church. It required followers to be totally dependent and subservient to their priest. It also has created an apathetic feeling among Catholics to their own faith (for the most part I grant you, not all you guys) and it has created false ideals that I even take to sins like Idolatry (asking the “saints” for help, worshiping images of Mary and the “saints”) and the loving of the Law that brought down the Pharisees.

The Catholic Church also is trapped in that it is so obsessed with tradition, consisting of thousands of things that are never mentioned once in the Bible or are drawn vaguely from verses that make it so it isn't like Christianity is really supposed to be anymore.

"The way it's seen in the Methodist church (and other Protestant denominations as well?) Is that the bread and wine are symbols. It is what goes on spiritually in a person that matters, not what is actually ingested. The reason for the ritual is to help the person partaking to reflect upon Christ's sacrifice. The key is the state of mind. That's why substitution to something else is not a problem."

Heck yeah! Matthew 3:11 "I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire." Explain to me how the Holy Spirit is actually holy water. It is a tiny piece of divine truth within us all that allows us to talk one on one with God, with the help and in the name of Christ. With it, Christ makes the connection with us to save us. Priests need not ever be a part of this. You can worship God anywhere and anytime. You can drink motor oil and eat fried chicken, and as long as you are keeping in mind the sacrifice of Christ and what He did for you, it's all good.

"its cause we have day jobs

so we pass on the task to the super-stars to theology - the clergy

they have study the Bible, Church dogma and history and can devote their lives to these issues and are a hell of a lot more qualified to make a change that some one who’s worrying about his kids, job and that mortgage"

I have over 300 people that regularly attend my home church. Two of them make a living out of studying the Word. Nearly ALL of them do daily devotionals, reading the Word, talking with God through prayer as often as possible. A carpenter, a house builder, a business owner and our youth group leader studies frequently. He has two kids, a wife, a house and a small business to run. He has been incredibly successful, and he STILL finds the time to read about God, and try to the best of his ability to understand.

"You gotta draw the line somewhere. Every expection chips something from the Catholic Church's authority.

The Lutheran church has become a big pussy that allows everything. Ooh! You killed someone. Good thing God is forgiving."

The Catholic Church has no authority that I'm aware of. No earthly church does. When Jesus said he was giving the keys to heaven and earth to Peter, He didn't mean that Peter got to pick who went to heaven or who went to hell. He never said those keys could be passed either. Peter never mentions this power and Jesus says multiple times that He and He alone shall be the thing that saves man from their sins and His Father shall judge us all, no moral and certainly no pope. As a side note, I don't care how horrible a life you've lived, if you fully accept Christ into your heart and are saved by His grace, you can have murdered millions, and you are still forgiven. Do you deny the promise that Christ made to us all? Obviously, the writer has not sinned, so they are free to cast as many stones as they like…right….anyway.

Jesus is about love. You need no rituals to be saved. You need no rituals to stay saved. You need say no words nor hear a sermon. You don't have to be a priest or confess. You don't have to be baptized with water. You need to do two things. You must believe in the existence of God, and His Son Jesus Christ. Second, you must take on faith that Christ died for your sins and through Him and Him alone can those sins be taken from you so that you will be seen favorably in Gods eyes on judgment day.

I challenge anyone who thinks that I'm a filthy heretic liar to telegram me at his or her leisure, and let me know where you think I've gone astray. You may have good ideas and you may help me understand my faith a little better. I will warn you though, once a debate starts, you'll never be rid of me.

"The Right Arm of U C"

-R. S. of UC

My mother can't eat gluten but she has gluten free bread. you can buy it in health stoes and many supermarkets. The priest in my church gives it to my mom as communion. she puts the bread in the chalas befor mass starts.

Wow, that was really long.

PS: I think that the Church is really slimy for even considering denying that someone's comunion was "real."

It makes me want to do this --> :headbang:

And if you believe the other members of my church, when they hear about it, you'll get about 20 rows of pews all going:
:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

Catholics who are halfway intelligent and active in politics,
I think you should clarify that statement.

Soem Catholics don't like those of a left wing persuasion having communion. But you are not actually banned. A priest can refuse to give it to you (he isn't actually allowed not to if you go up though, but you will be warned).

There are liberal Catholics and even (gasp), Liberal Catholic Priests who don't care about your social and political viewa, only that you are trying to be a good person.

I can remember my parish priest that I didn't believe in God, and rather then throw Chickeque shite at me about how you must believe to go to heaven, he was completely understanding about it.

It may also be of interest of one of the major wings embraced Marxism as a useful way of teaching people how the world works (Vatican was displeased about it of coarse, but Arrupe did what he thought was best).

Moronic Catholics are morons first and Catholics second, and should not be used to base your views of one of the largest religion in the world.

There was also the Cult or Heresy of the Free Spirit, which was a pantheistic form of Christianity (and is claimed by some as the first large Anarchist movement).

Thanks for showing me that. I don't agree very much with their position, but it was interesting to read about.

Also worth looking for are individuals who created quite a large stir with there religious outlook, such as John Ball (who's most famous quote I carry in my sig), John Wycliffe, Bernard of Clairvaux (sort of, more like an early church reformer) and Savonarola. Interestingly, many of these 'heretics' usually had a clerical background, which was probably from where they drew their authority (in the four I just mentioned, the firt two were priests and the last two were monks. Also remember, Luther was a monk too).

I remembered John Wycliffe, and looked up the others. It looks like these people you mentioned were pre-Luther, though, except for Savonarola (though he died somewhat before Luther). What I was most interested in is how the Vatican has dealt with things in the past century or so, as I think that would probably be the best indicator of the future.

Not so sure if it would work without resulting in a split. The current Pope, iirc, got very hot under the collar with a sect of Catholicism denying the immaculate conception (one of the few things declared ex cathedra), he also got very annoyed with Arrupe for allowing the Jesuits in Latin America to use Marxist theory to help teach the locals a way to interprete their society.

What exactly did he end up doing?

Also the Vatican has frequently proven itself as being too slow to act, and it usually results in too much too late.

I hate to bring it up, but I think fairly soon there may end up being a new Pope. We'll have to see what direction things go then, but things may not change all that much.

Thanks for showing me that. I don't agree very much with their position, but it was interesting to read about.

Pleasure.

What I was most interested in is how the Vatican has dealt with things in the past century or so, as I think that would probably be the best indicator of the future.

The churhc has tended to be more open minded. There was Vatican II which was and still is hated by Conservatives in the church. Because it is seen as "Liberalism sneaking in throught the back door" at best and "Masons/Satanists corrupting the church" at worst.

But two examples in the past century have been Arrupe and The Catholic Workers Party.

Arrupe was the head of the Jesuits (until his death a while ago), who authorised the Boff brothers to teach Marxism to the Latin Americans. John Paul II did tell him off (iirc the first thing we did after landing in Argentina was tell him off). This was about 15 years ago I think, and compared to what would have happened a century ago, he got off lightly. He was allowed to continue be head of the Jesuits (but I think he was banned from teaching Marxism), however, it is better then being stripped of his posistion and being excommunicated.

The Catholic LAbour Party was a very Communistic society of Catholics in America towards the middle of the century. The rules may have been differently, because it was largely lay people. But the Church frequently threatened to ban it, but never did.

I have no more off the top my head, it is getting abit late and I should go to bed. Maybe more tommorrow.



What exactly did he end up doing?
He kept his job as far as I know. He is now dead, and this happened either when I was young or before I was born, so I may be mistaken.


I hate to bring it up, but I think fairly soon there may end up being a new Pope. We'll have to see what direction things go then, but things may not change all that much.
I was thinking about starting a thread on that, but didn't think there would be much interest.

BUT JPII is very ill now, he probably won't last much longer.

I think you should clarify that statement.

Soem Catholics don't like those of a left wing persuasion having communion. But you are not actually banned. A priest can refuse to give it to you (he isn't actually allowed not to if you go up though, but you will be warned).

There are liberal Catholics and even (gasp), Liberal Catholic Priests who don't care about your social and political viewa, only that you are trying to be a good person.

I never said there weren't. I have no beef with Catholics, it is the Catholic Church (as headed by the Vatican) that does crazy stuff. I was referring to the Catholic Church (as in, the hierarchy that tries to run it), not individual Catholics.

I am a conservative Catholic and I have no problem with Vatican II. I think you are confusing "Conservative" with "Traditionalist"--Traditionalist Catholics reject Vatican II, and therefore it's heirarchy has been excommunicated. Conservative Catholics are those who are loyal to the Teachings of the Church, including Vatican II.

Furthermore, the Vatican has released a document ("Redemptoris Sacramentum", or in English "Instruction on the Eucharist") that very clearly states The bread used in the celebration of te Most Holy Eucharistic Sacrifice must be unleavened, purely of wheat, and recently made so that there is no danger of decomposition. It follows therefore taht bread made from another substance, even if it is grain, or if it is mixed with another substance different fromwheat to such an extent that it would not commonly be considered wheat bread, does not constitute valid matter for confecting the Sacrifice and the Eucharistic Sacrament.

--This document only effects the Latin rite of the Catholic Church

This document was signed by Cardinal Arinze, prepared by the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, and mandated by Pope John Paul II, who ordered that it be published and observed immediately by all concerned.

The Vatican has spoken on the issue of "non-wheat" breads.

Also, and earlier post stated that the Catholic Church doesn't allow leavened bread to be used (or something to that affect)--that isn't entirely accurate. The Latin Rite of the Catholic Church doesn't allow leavened bread. There are about 22 other Catholic Rites, some of which (Ukranian Catholic, for instance) that do allow leavened bread to be used for the Consecration.

Furthermore, the little girl may not be able to receive the Host, but she can receive the Wine--therefore she could have a valid First Communion. It appears that either CNN didn't choose to report that, or that the family chose not to take that valid option.

Pio Magnus

I am a conservative Catholic and I have no problem with Vatican II. I think you are confusing "Conservative" with "Traditionalist"--Traditionalist Catholics reject Vatican II, and therefore it's heirarchy has been excommunicated. Conservative Catholics are those who are loyal to the Teachings of the Church, including Vatican II.

I made a mistake, it should have been some conservative Catholics. I know that Traditionalists reject it, but I know Catholics who completely hate it but haven't rejected it, for whatever reason.

Maybe I should define what I mean by Conservative.


never said there weren't. I have no beef with Catholics, it is the Catholic Church (as headed by the Vatican) that does crazy stuff. I was referring to the Catholic Church (as in, the hierarchy that tries to run it), not individual Catholics.

Always confusing. My mistakes.

Right on.

*torches the Vatican*

no,no..dun torch it. Return the precious works of art stolen during the Crusades to their original lands, and sell the rest. 'Swhat I'd do.