NationStates Jolt Archive

I was watching CBN last night, yeah I know... Any way it had some pro-life peace on it. And one of the figures was, ever since roe vs. wade some 45,000,000 abortions have happened on the united states. Thats a lot of ppl who diddn't get to live...

I was watching CBN last night, yeah I know... Any way it had some pro-life peace on it. And one of the figures was, ever since roe vs. wade some 45,000,000 abortions have happened on the united states. Thats a lot of ppl who diddn't get to live...
God I hadnt realized the number was so high!

Um ok... Thats a lot of aborted fetuses... I don't really see how that is significant in any way.

I was watching CBN last night, yeah I know... Any way it had some pro-life peace on it. And one of the figures was, ever since roe vs. wade some 45,000,000 abortions have happened on the united states. Thats a lot of ppl who diddn't get to live...
The current projection of the population of the world is 6,387,580,530 people. I feel soooo bad for those unborn kids who likely would have had a crap life among people who didn't want them.

That's assuming that many of them wouldn't die during childbirth/early age diseases, and also assumes that these potential humans would have had a life worth living. The problem is that people look at such matters on too much of a personal level. If their life has been good they assume that everyone's life would be good. Suicide rates belie that concept. Also, 45 million extra people would boost the current US population by almost 17%, an extremely large increase. Although the US is far less populated than many European or Asian countries, such a large increase could hardly be beneficial to the infrastructure that is currently availible.

These are a variety of ideas, most of which have no influence on my being in favor of abortion, since I do not believe that an unborn fetus is a human being yet, but I hope that some of them may be relevant to others who do not feel the same way.

Yeah the fact is, since they were unborn... they technically never lived so they never existed... So um yeah... its not exactly genocide....

That's assuming that many of them wouldn't die during childbirth/early age diseases, and also assumes that these potential humans would have had a life worth living. The problem is that people look at such matters on too much of a personal level. If their life has been good they assume that everyone's life would be good. Suicide rates belie that concept. Also, 45 million extra people would boost the current US population by almost 17%, an extremely large increase. Although the US is far less populated than many European or Asian countries, such a large increase could hardly be beneficial to the infrastructure that is currently availible.

These are a variety of ideas, most of which have no influence on my being in favor of abortion, since I do not believe that an unborn fetus is a human being yet, but I hope that some of them may be relevant to others who do not feel the same way.
Well, do you then believe abortion is an effective way for population control (god forbid)?

Well, do you then believe abortion is an effective way for population control (god forbid)?
No, but ... sit here (http://www.census.gov/cgi-bin/ipc/popclockw) and refresh occaisionally. It's freaking scary.

The vast majority of these 45 000 000 were...

A) Rape-related
B) Prone to deformities
C) First-trimester abortions, during which the fetus was scientifically proven to lack any level of consciousness

No, but ... sit here (http://www.census.gov/cgi-bin/ipc/popclockw) and refresh occaisionally. It's freaking scary.

It's not really scary for the simple fact that we don't know how many people the world can support. With improving farm technology the world may be able to support another 10 billion. Poor nations would suffer of course, but the industrialized world could help out, if they'd get off of their heinies.

Well, do you then believe abortion is an effective way for population control (god forbid)?
it is very clearly an effective means of controlling population. whether or not it is desirable is a different story.

45,000,000 Hitlers aborted perhaps?

It's not really scary for the simple fact that we don't know how many people the world can support. With improving farm technology the world may be able to support another 10 billion. Poor nations would suffer of course, but the industrialized world could help out, if they'd get off of their heinies.
just out of curiosity, why should we want to allow the world to reach capacity? why not stop population growth now? is there any particular reason why having 10 billion more people would necessarily be a good thing?

It's not really scary for the simple fact that we don't know how many people the world can support. With improving farm technology the world may be able to support another 10 billion. Poor nations would suffer of course, but the industrialized world could help out, if they'd get off of their heinies.
Yeah... but somehow I can't see that working out. I adore living in the American West for the simple reason that it is relatively uncrowded. While the world's resources may be able to support an enormous number of people, do we really want it to?
Already most of the world's problems stem down to one thing... overpopulation.

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2004/HEALTH/conditions/08/19/tiniest.preemie.ap/top.preemie.birth.ap.gif
This is what the Republicans want, luckily this girl grew up to be a healthy teen.

Actually, I am thinking I should stand side by side with the democrats and support abortion. For the most part, the Democrats are just aborting their future constituents.

Actually, I am thinking I should stand side by side with the democrats and support abortion. For the most part, the Democrats are just aborting their future constituents.
and yet we still have about 70% of Americans supporting abortion rights...if we were to assume that life begins at conception, and that most aborted fetuses were (as you claim) going to grow up to support abortion, then just think how much greater the support for abortion really is!

It's not really scary for the simple fact that we don't know how many people the world can support. With improving farm technology the world may be able to support another 10 billion. Poor nations would suffer of course, but the industrialized world could help out, if they'd get off of their heinies.

I would love to rant about how wrong you are, but it's too off topic.

so I'll start a new post entitled "dwindling resources" and rant there.

and yet we still have about 70% of Americans supporting abortion rights...if we were to assume that life begins at conception, and that most aborted fetuses were (as you claim) going to grow up to support abortion, then just think how much greater the support for abortion really is!
70% of Americans support abortion in your twisted mind.

Kerry Fled

Abortion is horrible.
As a Christian I shudder at the thought.
As a Christian who understands what that means I shudder even more at the thought of the government regulating our God given right to choose.
I am undeniably pro-choice(anti-abortion), it is a solely un-Christian act to remove someones right to exercise their free will to choose.
I often enjoy harrassing those sign carrying nazis outside clinics, they bother scared pregnant girls who are confused and seeking help, they make them feel like shit then put God's label on it, theu put their signs down when a 200lb man jumps out of his car and starts pushing them around.
The issue of abortion is a none issue, no one in their right mind could argue it to be a good thing, but women have a right to choose a bad thing.
Partial births are another thing entirely, but the Repubs used good legislation about PBs to constrain regular first and second trimester abortions.
Damn this subject makes me mad I dont really like either side of this coin.

70% of Americans support abortion in your twisted mind.

Kerry Fled

Approve Disapprove
All or Most Cases 57% 42
To Save Woman's Life 88 10
To Save Woman's Health 82 14
In Cases of Rape/Incest 81 17


Bush Dodged

It's not really scary for the simple fact that we don't know how many people the world can support. With improving farm technology the world may be able to support another 10 billion. Poor nations would suffer of course, but the industrialized world could help out, if they'd get off of their heinies.
Perhaps the earth has a capacity to hold 16 billion people at one time. The problem is, how long. Already our resources have been eroded. Farm land only lasts for a certain amount of time. Consumable resources would quickly run out. Infrastructure would be impossibly difficult to manage effectively. Space would be limited, increasing the chances for mass epidemics and pandemics. Chances are should the earth ever reach capacity, it wouldn't stay that way for very long.

45 000 000 unborn babies are aborted, interesting. But the fact is that this is more of mercy killing. Most abortions would be babies that are unwanted (rape or just worthless mothers), deformed etc.

Abortion is horrible.
As a Christian I shudder at the thought.
As a Christian who understands what that means I shudder even more at the thought of the government regulating our God given right to choose.
I am undeniably pro-choice(anti-abortion), it is a solely un-Christian act to remove someones right to exercise their free will to choose.
I often enjoy harrassing those sign carrying nazis outside clinics, they bother scared pregnant girls who are confused and seeking help, they make them feel like shit then put God's label on it, theu put their signs down when a 200lb man jumps out of his car and starts pushing them around.
The issue of abortion is a none issue, no one in their right mind could argue it to be a good thing, but women have a right to choose a bad thing.
Partial births are another thing entirely, but the Repubs used good legislation about PBs to constrain regular first and second trimester abortions.
Damn this subject makes me mad I dont really like either side of this coin.

regarding "no-one in their right mind could argue it a good thing" I disagree. But nonetheless a very sensible opinion. You do Christians credit.

Sadly the placard waving variety are more prevalent, causing non christians to stereotype us.

so lets get em :mp5:

the placard wavers that is... ah what the heck lets kill everyone :D
:sniper:

Check it out, I can do that too.


Approve Disapprove
All or Most Cases 12% 88
To Save Woman's Life 15 79
To Save Woman's Health 15 81
In Cases of Rape/Incest 17 81


Kerry Fled

Check it out, I can do that too.


Approve Disapprove
All or Most Cases 12% 88
To Save Woman's Life 15 79
To Save Woman's Health 15 81
In Cases of Rape/Incest 17 81


Kerry Fled
Except my numbers are from a poll, not BS :rolleyes:

Except my numbers are from a poll, not BS :rolleyes:
Yeah sure, that why you posted a source or a link.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Except my numbers are from a poll, not BS :rolleyes:
Link the poll?

I'm pro-choice myself...have been for as long as I can remember knowing about abortion...

Yeah sure, that why you posted a source or a link.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/abortion_poll030122.html

linky linky linky.

Interesting how you are in your words "pro-choice" when you are in fact denying choice. Firstly you are denying people the ability to define what is and is not alive and human based upon your own beliefs. Secondly you are denying the right of a woman and a man to stop an unwanted child from being born and denying them the right to live their own lives. Until there is some sort of definite ruling on what is and is not alive, you are denying choice, not enforcing it. Making the choice for someone else is not "pro-choice" as you call it.

Interesting how you are in your words "pro-choice" when you are in fact denying choice. Firstly you are denying people the ability to define what is and is not alive and human based upon your own beliefs. Secondly you are denying the right of a woman and a man to stop an unwanted child from being born and denying them the right to live their own lives. Until there is some sort of definite ruling on what is and is not alive, you are denying choice, not enforcing it. Making the choice for someone else is not "pro-choice" as you call it.
Uh... no. When I say I support abortion, that does not mean I am telling a couple who does not want an abortion to go get one anyway. I am making no one's choice for them. The existence of abortion clinics does not mean anyone is forced to utilize them.

If people want to chose to think their fetus in its first day of cenception is alive, fine, do so, and be happy with it. However, if I don't want to think that, don't mess with my own choice to do so. Or my own life, if it's in danger from a child. Being hard-core anti-abortion is simply cruel to women, as opposed to being cruel to fetuses who aren't even human yet.

just out of curiosity, why should we want to allow the world to reach capacity? why not stop population growth now? is there any particular reason why having 10 billion more people would necessarily be a good thing?

nope, no reason why it's necessarily a good thing, but who is to decide which people/cultures/regions etc can produce children in the future? It's a classic coordination problem - in general it's probably better for everybody if the population does not increase so fast, but (for example) an agricultural country is a big economic benefit to particular families to have larger families to help with labour/provide for parents in their old age. The inevitable temptation is to 'free ride'.

I'm not saying it's an insurmountable problem, but it's a problem.


Already most of the world's problems stem down to one thing... overpopulation.

I disagree. How about the unequal distribution of resources between that population, peppered with a history of colonialism and Imperialism, backed up by an unfair system of global trade, with the everpresent threat of military power?

bump

45 000 000 unborn babies are aborted, interesting. But the fact is that this is more of mercy killing. Most abortions would be babies that are unwanted (rape or just worthless mothers), deformed etc.
Mercy killing... I think I've heard that one before. The Nazis used that excuse to kill the weak.

I am opposed to abortion in most cases. It is murder. And I'm not religious or conservative either.

Abortion has been, and always will be a touchy issue. However, I went from an imobile pro choice man to an ardent pro-lifer who has only yet to decide on abortion vs. death of monther for sure.

The truth is, we don't NEED abortions. First of all, the pregnant teenage girls in those hospitals are looking for birth control. I'm not saying that it is acceptable from my position that people picket the places. I'd rather picket Congressman's houses. However, these people have had sex without thinking about the consiquences and now have been served up the downside, that they have a child. I'm sorry, but a very very long time ago, we had an idea of punishment. I'm not saying that any child should be a punishment for it's parents, but I am greatly angered by the fact that people use abortion as birth control. You did something knowing fully dang well what would happen if even the slightest screw up happened. In America, you know that sex=babies and HIV from about 6th grade. In the rare instance of pregant fifth graders *shivers* I have no idea what in blazes I would think.

I don't care if that baby is concious or not, the way that we kill those infants is banned even for meat produce like chickens and cows. We show more respect to sheep who can be led off of a cliff than we do for a human baby.

In the case of rape, I used to feel that the option had to be left open. This wasn't the womans fault, right? Very correct. I am on very close terms with more than one girl who has been raped or sexually violated. No, it is not their fault. But tell me how murdering a fetus improves the mental state of the woman or helps police find the rapist? She lives in the crime scene of the rape and until she learns to deal with the fact that she was raped, I don't care if you gave her a thousand abortions, it will not help her.

Those children that are born because their parents chose to give them life go to adoption agentsies. There they await a set of loving parents who want them and have the ability to take them into their homes. I am not full of hot air when I say this. My girlfriend's family has an adopted child, and two other families from our church have adopted at least a half dozen other children. I myself intend to do it if I can finantially.

Man am I appauled at the very idea that fetus's aren't yet people. When is a person a person? You use conciousness? What about retarded people? They don't contribute to society. Nix them too huh? Or the elderly? What a drain on society, and they can't help produce anything. Nix them too? The mentally ill? I know people who have run to the side of mentally ill. They are just another drain on the society in your brain. Nix them too huh?

You say you're giving people a choice. Name me one of you who will happily kill their own flesh and blood. I'll turn your name in to the cops for survailance.

Murder-premeditated killing of a human being by a human being

murder in the first degree is characterized by premeditation

Tell me how these definitions are not abortion? I asked Google for definitions, and these are just a few I got. You plan to kill an infant, you then kill the infant. I don't care how scared, how sad, or how pained you are, killing another human being is not some state approved Prozak.

Contact me at "the Right Arm of UC" if you want me to come back. At this point, I'm fed up trying to tell people and I'll wait for incentive.

-R. S. of UC

May God bless you and forgive you all

The current projection of the population of the world is 6,387,580,530 people. I feel soooo bad for those unborn kids who likely would have had a crap life among people who didn't want them.

Who - like you?

Really - THINK - do you know anybody alive who'd prefer to be dead.

I imagine that the number of peaple who would prefer to be dead is significantly less than the number of people who would prefer that you die. :D

Merry Fcuking christmas.

nope, no reason why it's necessarily a good thing, but who is to decide which people/cultures/regions etc can produce children in the future? It's a classic coordination problem - in general it's probably better for everybody if the population does not increase so fast, but (for example) an agricultural country is a big economic benefit to particular families to have larger families to help with labour/provide for parents in their old age. The inevitable temptation is to 'free ride'.

I'm not saying it's an insurmountable problem, but it's a problem.



I disagree. How about the unequal distribution of resources between that population, peppered with a history of colonialism and Imperialism, backed up by an unfair system of global trade, with the everpresent threat of military power?



I agree with your disagreement - the root cause of the worlds problems is not directly related to population, this relationship is a coincidential, perhaps increasing the magnitude of the problems but not directly affecting any change to the situation - the real problems exsist in that we have managed the resources of our world poorly - The sorry state of world affairs and geopolitics and economics is not a problem of population but a problem of mismanagment and boils down to the underlying human condition of self-interest over interest in people. The moment the mean of the population understands and apreciates the situation of there fellow man and is taught to show empathy then at that point self-interest will be minimized to satisfying your neccesities and that of your communities and interest in others situation will motivate one to work in ways that benifits there fellow man - If its possible to increase the quality of public education to this effect and to change the mean of the current human condition you will have changed the world for the better - including putting people in administrative possitions who are capable of good leadership at every neccesary level.


cept our current situation doesnot allow for such a change.
A historian would say America is probably the greatest social-political experiment in human history - and then he'd tell you its doomed to failure just like every other system that has been tryied. Except the world is so tightly intertwinded and interconnected at this point that America cannot fail and affect just itself and its immediate geopolitical neighbors, such a failure would insure global consequences and suffering on a mass scale. I hope it doesnt happend in my lifetime. Yet I sitll wish I could comeback to the place a thousand years later to see the results as they are usually an improvement upon the past in some ways.

Interesting how you are in your words "pro-choice" when you are in fact denying choice. Firstly you are denying people the ability to define what is and is not alive and human based upon your own beliefs. Secondly you are denying the right of a woman and a man to stop an unwanted child from being born and denying them the right to live their own lives. Until there is some sort of definite ruling on what is and is not alive, you are denying choice, not enforcing it. Making the choice for someone else is not "pro-choice" as you call it.


What were your words? "denying the right of a woman and a man to stop an unwanted child from being born and denying them the right to live their own lives" A child - a human being - someone who could eventually be the next great thinker and civil rights activist - the potential for greatness they deny a chance to exist for thier conveinience?

Do you know what would be the difference between my mother deciding to get an abortion 26 years ago and her pulling the trigger on a gun that takes my head off and doesnt allow me to acomplish what I want in my life is? - Effectively Nothing. Stopping a Child from being Born and Stoping a life from achieving its potential and that Life's right to Choose a course and way.

Life is not easy - and shouldnt be easy - If a couple fucks up they should deal with it as they can - but if they are unwilling to or even unable to - that life should not be snuffed out it should be cared for by the greater community the expense should be borne. People have an I can do spirit and we can acomplish and engineer solutions to the impossible when neccesitated - make it neccesary while at the same time attacking the environment and conditions that lead to unwanted pregnancies or improve the capacity of single-pregnant women to care for the child if they so choose, and if not set up and improve upon foster services so we can adequately care for those children wellenough to give them a chance to do what thier parents could not do for them.



________________________________________________________
Only in America we're slaves to be free,
only in America we kill the unborn to make ends meet.

I was watching CBN last night, yeah I know... Any way it had some pro-life peace on it. And one of the figures was, ever since roe vs. wade some 45,000,000 abortions have happened on the united states. Thats a lot of ppl who diddn't get to live...
your point being?

I was watching CBN last night, yeah I know... Any way it had some pro-life peace on it. And one of the figures was, ever since roe vs. wade some 45,000,000 abortions have happened on the united states. Thats a lot of ppl who diddn't get to live...


That's not a particularly interesting figure. In fact it's pretty meaningless. In order for that number to have any meaning you have to have some idea of how many abortions happened in the same amount of time, per capita, before abortions were legalized. It's like prohibition, outlawing it only prevents quality and safety, not the thing that has been outlawed. Abortion rates only go down significantly when safe-sex is taught and sex itself it destigmatized.

The problem is, the really rabidly anti-abortion people are also against sex-education and birth control. They're against the result of their own policies. Don't think it's a coincidence that they're almost all republican either. The bigger the population of uneducated poor people the easier it is to get cheap labor for big business. If the population declines walmart might have to start paying a living wage.

Approve Disapprove
All or Most Cases 57% 42
To Save Woman's Life 88 10
To Save Woman's Health 82 14
In Cases of Rape/Incest 81 17


Bush Dodged
The fact that 12% of people can't come to the conclusion that letting two people die is worse than killing just one is the bit that blows my mind.

hmmmm welll........I find that Big Jim P has a VERY INTERESTING figure. :cool: :cool:

Mercy killing... I think I've heard that one before. The Nazis used that excuse to kill the weak.
I believe that Hitler was a vegetarian too.

The Nazis did something similar therefore its evil is close to the poorest quality arguement ever made. I don't deny that mercy killing is wrong, but your arguement (to put it mildly) sucks.

The truth is, we don't NEED abortions. First of all, the pregnant teenage girls in those hospitals are looking for birth control. I'm not saying that it is acceptable from my position that people picket the places. I'd rather picket Congressman's houses. However, these people have had sex without thinking about the consiquences and now have been served up the downside, that they have a child. I'm sorry, but a very very long time ago, we had an idea of punishment. I'm not saying that any child should be a punishment for it's parents, but I am greatly angered by the fact that people use abortion as birth control. You did something knowing fully dang well what would happen if even the slightest screw up happened. In America, you know that sex=babies and HIV from about 6th grade. In the rare instance of pregant fifth graders *shivers* I have no idea what in blazes I would think.

Judith Jarvis Thompson compares accidental pregnancy to leaving a window open and a burglar falling in, and then being told that you're not allowed to force him to leave. You know that there are such things as burglars, you know that they can come in through open windows, so you now have to be content for him to steal your stuff and stay in the house as long as he pleases. That situation gets even more absurd if you'd had bars installed on your windows which happened to be faulty. Consequences of actions arguement... not so valid.

hmmmm welll........I find that Big Jim P has a VERY INTERESTING figure. :cool: :cool:


:fluffle: :fluffle:

I was watching CBN last night, yeah I know... Any way it had some pro-life peace on it. And one of the figures was, ever since roe vs. wade some 45,000,000 abortions have happened on the united states. Thats a lot of ppl who diddn't get to live...

People people, abortions are a good thing... Actually I think the death penalty is a good thing too... We need to thin the herd, so to speak. The world is over-populated, people need to die, or wear more condoms. Just think, if a fucking teenager [shown as :fluffle: ]wasn't too much of a pansy to wear a condom [shown as :mp5: ]then we wouldn't need so many abortions. So in short:

:fluffle: + :mp5: = :D

I believe that Hitler was a vegetarian too.

The Nazis did something similar therefore its evil is close to the poorest quality arguement ever made. I don't deny that mercy killing is wrong, but your arguement (to put it mildly) sucks.
GODWIN'S LAW, GODWIN'S LAW!

45 million? That pales in comparision to the number of people killed by government this century alone, which is at least 200 million.

GODWIN'S LAW, GODWIN'S LAW!
I love Godwin's Law.

I was watching CBN last night, yeah I know... Any way it had some pro-life peace on it. And one of the figures was, ever since roe vs. wade some 45,000,000 abortions have happened on the united states. Thats a lot of ppl who diddn't get to live...

That would make 1,451,612 abortions a year since then.

My figures say something more like 800,000 out of a total population of 226,545,805. That's less than 1% of the population getting abortions. Yes, it's a big number, but when you look at the big picture, it's not that big. Maybe you should look at the figures for FAS. Look at the stats for physical and sexual abuse. Look at the stats for malnutrition and neglect. Those kids live hellish lives, but the right to life people figure that as long as they're alive, it's not a problem. They only focus on the ones who die. They don't give a shit as long as the kid lives. Once that part is taken care of, their responsibility ends. So much for humanitarian and religious morality.