NationStates Jolt Archive

To state my bias clearly and immediately, I am a supporter of Cuba, and against U.S intervention in regards to that nation. I've heard plenty of arguments against Cuba, but most of them are based on the hysterical hatred of "communism" or "socialism" which has been fed to so many along with their pablum:). I want a chance to come up against some arguments that are based in more reason, because, as a person with an open (not empty) mind, I like to clarify/solidify my position through debate. Please refrain from boring insults like "pinko commie" etc. Make 'em more interesting, like baby-eating socialist dog:). (BTW I don't subscribe completely to ANY ideology...they all stifle...so I am not a communist, socialist, anarchist, liberal, conservative, etc. etc. I'm just LEFT)

I like it because it's a good tourist spot with NO AMERCIANS! WOOHOO!!

I like it because it's a good tourist spot with NO AMERCIANS! WOOHOO!!

Except the ones who sneak there and get harrassed/fined once they get home for having been to Cuba....hint...DON'T get your passport stamped in Cuba if you can help it:).

I grudgingly admire castro for being one of the longest lasting dictators in recent history, as well as having very little by way of a rap sheet, and for standing up to the US for closing in on 50 years.

Except the ones who sneak there and get harrassed/fined once they get home for having been to Cuba....hint...DON'T get your passport stamped in Cuba if you can help it:).
:) exactly the same reason you don't want your passport stamped if you plan on travelling in the mideast and decide to make a stop-over in Israel.

You know, it seems really silly on part of the U.S government not to let its citizens go to Cuba if they are really serious about "conquering" it. I mean, flood the island with U.S tourist, spending their dollars and propaganda, and Castro would have a much harder time at it:). I think the blockade has actually helped Cuba to maintain its position because it creates resentment, and keeps U.S businesses from flooding in and taking over. I hope the U.S never realises this....

Castro's main crime in the eyes of Washington?

He humiliated them at the Bay of Pigs.

He humiliated them by removing a US puppet government.

And he pissed of US businesses for privatizing their subsidiaries there.

The missiles? Hey, that was a Russian installation. Attaching blame to him for that would be no different than the USSR still pretending to be pissed off at Germany for Nato's missiles there during the cold war. IT is nonsensical.

Castro has proven his ability to control his Island for decades, and to put in place the best damn health care system in Central America despite all of the economic pressures against him.


The only thing continued sanctions are doing is punishing the ordinary people for having the bad luck to be born under a dictator, and giving Canadians a cheap place to vacation.

You know, it seems really silly on part of the U.S government not to let its citizens go to Cuba if they are really serious about "conquering" it. I mean, flood the island with U.S tourist, spending their dollars and propaganda, and Castro would have a much harder time at it:). I think the blockade has actually helped Cuba to maintain its position because it creates resentment, and keeps U.S businesses from flooding in and taking over. I hope the U.S never realises this....
We don't need to help Cuba's economy.

And before people start spouting it, the Cuban Healthcare myth is just that... a myth. Costa Rica, for example, has .4 years on average less life expectancy than Cuba. If .4 years more of life negates all the ways Castro has crushed rights of free speech, assembly, and others, then I think priorities need to be re-ordered.

http://www.os-connect.com/pop/p1.asp?whichpage=3&pagesize=20&sort=lepop

We don't need to help Cuba's economy.

And before people start spouting it, the Cuban Healthcare myth is just that... a myth. Costa Rica, for example, has .4 years on average less life expectancy than Cuba. If .4 years more of life negates all the ways Castro has crushed rights of free speech, assembly, and others, then I think priorities need to be re-ordered.

http://www.os-connect.com/pop/p1.asp?whichpage=3&pagesize=20&sort=lepop
the more we pretend blockading cuba will work effectively the longer we keep castro in power, and yeah i guess health care would be a myth, since you know we've been limiting travel and spending there since what, the 50s? besides the fact WE put castro in power, we should stop pretending his country is gonna fall down the drain and stop going "eww icky communism" and stop telling the cubans what they can and cant do, cubans here and there, we should just reopen trade and we can screw over castro later, because if it our silly rules havnt worked yet THEY ARNT GOING TO WORK, its only been what 50 years?

the more we pretend blockading cuba will work effectively the longer we keep castro in power, and yeah i guess health care would be a myth, since you know we've been limiting travel and spending there since what, the 50s? besides the fact WE put castro in power, we should stop pretending his country is gonna fall down the drain and stop going "eww icky communism" and stop telling the cubans what they can and cant do, cubans here and there, we should just reopen trade and we can screw over castro later, because if it our silly rules havnt worked yet THEY ARNT GOING TO WORK, its only been what 50 years?
Just because they haven't worked dosen't mean that we have to help the Castro regime. And do you have any basis for the claim that we put Castro in power, or is it more BS?

I don't understand. Do you mean the US actually prevents its citizens from travelling to Cuba?

We don't need to help Cuba's economy.

And before people start spouting it, the Cuban Healthcare myth is just that... a myth. Costa Rica, for example, has .4 years on average less life expectancy than Cuba. If .4 years more of life negates all the ways Castro has crushed rights of free speech, assembly, and others, then I think priorities need to be re-ordered.

http://www.os-connect.com/pop/p1.asp?whichpage=3&pagesize=20&sort=lepop

A myth?

Excuse me?

Cuba exceeds Costa Rica in life expectancy (albeit by a small margin) and does it with 1/3 the per-capita GDP ($3200 compared to $9000)and you call that a myth?


Try finding another Central American / Carribean country with such a poor economy but with such good health stats.

Cuba: $3200/person: 77.04 years
---------------------------------
Nicaragua: $2200/person: 70.02 years.
Dominican Republic: $6,000/person: 67.63 years
Bahamas: $16,800/person: 65.63 years
St Kitts & Nevis: $8800/person: 71.86 years
etc.

(Stats from CIA world factbook)

You can call it a myth if you like. But the stats are there for all to see. And people don't stay alive and healthy by accident.

I don't understand. Do you mean the US actually prevents its citizens from travelling to Cuba?
As far as I remember US citizens are banned from traveling to Cuba unless they get a dispensation from the Department of the Treasury. Wierd I know, but I may have gotten my facts mixed up.

I don't understand. Do you mean the US actually prevents its citizens from travelling to Cuba?

Not really, just discouraged.

Just because they haven't worked dosen't mean that we have to help the Castro regime. And do you have any basis for the claim that we put Castro in power, or is it more BS?
the us funded the castro insurgency.
He and the us started out as buddies. Castro grew up a great admirer of the US.
What happened is that he snubbed by America's President and turned, consequently, to the USSR.
Ever since then, the US has been angry with Cuba.
Going back to FDR refusing to send a 10 year old Castro a US one dollar bill to add to his collection of foreign currencies.

I don't understand. Do you mean the US actually prevents its citizens from travelling to Cuba?

Technically no. But Americans ARE forbiden by law to conduct any commerce with Cuba except by special dispensation - usually for humanitarian reasons.

So, any american can spend as much time in Cubas as they want.....as long as they do not spend a cent there that would contribute to Cuba's economy. No buying food, renting hotel rooms, etc.....


If an American were to fly into Havana in the morning, tour around by foot all day (no taxi or bus allowed! hitchiking acceptable), eat a pack lunch that they brought, and then fly home that evening - it would be perfectly legal.

As far as I remember US citizens are banned from traveling to Cuba unless they get a dispensation from the Department of the Treasury. Wierd I know, but I may have gotten my facts mixed up.
You can go once every three years for only a couple of days and you can only spend $50 a day while you are there. Spend any more and you can be charged with breaking the law.

You can call it a myth if you like. But the stats are there for all to see. And people don't stay alive and healthy by accident.
You don't. But having that life expectancy is no real accomplishment. Other countries in Latin America can be both more succesful economically (capitalist) and have just as high of a life expectancy. You don't need to impoversh your country and take away your citizen's rights just to have a good healthcare system like Castro.

You can go once every three years for only a couple of days and you can only spend $50 a day while you are there. Spend any more and you can be charged with breaking the law.
Do they ask you to bring back receipts?

You can go once every three years for only a couple of days and you can only spend $50 a day while you are there. Spend any more and you can be charged with breaking the law.

But I think that still only applies to people of Cuban descent right? Or is that for Joe Average as well now?

They used to have special rules for ex-pat Cubans to allow them to visit family periodically.

Technically no. But Americans ARE forbiden by law to conduct any commerce with Cuba except by special dispensation - usually for humanitarian reasons.

So, any american can spend as much time in Cubas as they want.....as long as they do not spend a cent there that would contribute to Cuba's economy. No buying food, renting hotel rooms, etc.....


If an American were to fly into Havana in the morning, tour around by foot all day (no taxi or bus allowed! hitchiking acceptable), eat a pack lunch that they brought, and then fly home that evening - it would be perfectly legal.
Most of this is true, but if you have relatives there, (ie: you're a cuban exile or related to one) you can spend a very limited sum on the local economy if you are spending it on your relatives. Again, you can't go over the $50 a day rule.

Do they ask you to bring back receipts?
Unknown, would have to check on that.

the us funded the castro insurgency.
He and the us started out as buddies. Castro grew up a great admirer of the US.
What happened is that he snubbed by America's President and turned, consequently, to the USSR.
Ever since then, the US has been angry with Cuba.
Going back to FDR refusing to send a 10 year old Castro a US one dollar bill to add to his collection of foreign currencies.
That's hardly close to the US "putting" Castro in power. Tons of countries supported the revolution in one way or another. You have your dates wrong, though. It was Eisenhower who "snubbed" Castro and that was about a decade after FDR refused to send Castro any money.

But I think that still only applies to people of Cuban descent right? Or is that for Joe Average as well now?

They used to have special rules for ex-pat Cubans to allow them to visit family periodically.
I think it applies to cuban americans only, but I would have to check on that.

We don't need to help Cuba's economy.

And before people start spouting it, the Cuban Healthcare myth is just that... a myth. Costa Rica, for example, has .4 years on average less life expectancy than Cuba. If .4 years more of life negates all the ways Castro has crushed rights of free speech, assembly, and others, then I think priorities need to be re-ordered.

http://www.os-connect.com/pop/p1.asp?whichpage=3&pagesize=20&sort=lepop

Life expectancy is only one idicator of a good health care system, but lets look at a country that has followed U.S orders to open up their system economically, even signing NAFTA... Mexico...Mexico has a life expectancy of 71.49 for all, compared to Cuba's 76.21. That's a fairly large difference. Let's look at the number of doctors per 100,000 people in Cuba and the U.S..
http://www3.who.int/whosis/health_personnel/health_personnel.cfm?path=whosis,health_personnel&language=english

It's: Cuba 530.4 (as of 97)
U.S 279.0 (as of 95)

Let's look at infant mortality:
Cuba: 7/1000 live births
U.S: 9/1000 live births


As well, 100% of Cubans are covered by the healthcare system, where many people in the U.S have little to no coverage at all. All this done on a much lower GNP than the U.S (who by the way spends more on health care than almost any other country, proving the lie that private health care is more cost efficient.)

You don't. But having that life expectancy is no real accomplishment. Other countries in Latin America can be both more succesful economically (capitalist) and have just as high of a life expectancy. You don't need to impoversh your country and take away your citizen's rights just to have a good healthcare system like Castro.

Excuse me?

You are also blaming Castro for "impoverishing" his country when you have had sanctions in place against him for over 40 years - including regulations that make it unattractive for your allies to also do business with him as there have been sanctions also applied against countries that DID trade with him?


He didn't "impoverish" his country.


The US did that for him quite nicely.

That's hardly close to the US "putting" Castro in power. Tons of countries supported the revolution in one way or another.
The US was a direct supporter of his insurgency and funded him as well with the intention of him taking power. Admittedly they didn't expect him to switch to a totalitarian government system, but the US government did help put him in power.

That's hardly close to the US "putting" Castro in power. Tons of countries supported the revolution in one way or another. You have your dates wrong, though. It was Eisenhower who "snubbed" Castro and that was about a decade after FDR refused to send Castro any money.
If giving Castro arms and sending military advisors to help him isn't helping him, then I don't know what is.
I never said it was Eisenhower who snubbed Castro. In fact E expected Castro to be a good US ally and was surprised when Castro allied with Russia instead of America.
After all, it was Eisenhower who gave Castro all the arms he used to overthrow Batista.

You are also blaming Castro for "impoverishing" his country when you have had sanctions in place against him for over 40 years - including regulaitons that make it unattractive for you allies to also do business with him as there have been sanctions also applied against countries that DID trade with him?


He didn't "impoverish" his country.

Your right. Doing things like nationalizing industries, one example being turning a one of the most profitibale sugar industries in the world into one that runs into chronic debt couldn't have had anything to do with it.

If giving Castro arms and sending military advisors to help him isn't helping him, then I don't know what is.
I never said it was Eisenhower who snubbed Castro. In fact E expected Castro to be a good US ally and was surprised when Castro allied with Russia instead of America.
After all, it was Eisenhower who gave Castro all the arms he used to overthrow Batista.

The U.S got sore because their puppet turned around and bit them in the butt (pun intended) instead of dancing to their tune as later dictators would...(Pinochet et al).

Excuse me?

You are also blaming Castro for "impoverishing" his country when you have had sanctions in place against him for over 40 years - including regulations that make it unattractive for your allies to also do business with him as there have been sanctions also applied against countries that DID trade with him?


He didn't "impoverish" his country.


The US did that for him quite nicely.
The same applies to the old soviet economy. The old theories about its collapse that were based entirely on political bias are now being swept aside in favor of more partisan are better vetted reasons. The main one being the Reagan administrations sanctions on Russia and his sabotage of key soviet industrial infrastructure.
While most hardliners continue to insist that soviet economy collapsed on its own, most modern nonpartisan economists, including many of the most renowned in the world now credit Reagan with destroying the Soviet Economy up to 50 years before it was due to collapse.

The U.S got sore because their puppet turned around and bit them in the butt (pun intended) instead of dancing to their tune as later dictators would...(Pinochet et al).
Yep, that about describes it fairly accurately.

Your right. Doing things like nationalizing industries, one example being turning a one of the most profitibale sugar industries in the world into one that runs into chronic debt couldn't have had anything to do with it.
If you'd done your history you would also know that global sugar prices had collapsed. It is no longer the gold mine industry it once was. Castro had very little to do with that failure.

Your right. Doing things like nationalizing industries, one example being turning a one of the most profitibale sugar industries in the world into one that runs into chronic debt couldn't have had anything to do with it.

Ah...sugar....sure it was profitable in the old days, when few countries were producing it, but it is silly to say that it was Castro that turned the industry into one with chronic debt, and I'll tell you why:).

"Production is growing more quickly than consumption – oversupply makes sugar cheaper on world markets, where many poor countries have to sell their exports.

Fuelling the habit
Big sugar businesses in rich (OECD) countries, through price support and subsidies as well as quotas and high tariffs on imports, receive roughly 1.75 times the amount they would without them; consumers pay roughly twice as much as they would on an open ‘world’ market.3

As a result, sugar beet – which is mostly grown in rich countries – is one of the most profitable of all arable crops, even though the cost of producing sucrose from beet is roughly double that from cane.

This profitability encourages overproduction and ‘dumping’ on world markets – particularly by the European Union (EU). In 1999/2000 the EU imported 1.9 million tons of raw sugar, but exported 5.1 million tons." New Internationalist, Issue 363, FACTS SHEET http://www.newint.org/index4.html

In short it is the sheer number of countries producing sugar as compared to the amount of people actually consuming it that has forced down the prices...that and the ridiculous subsidies allowed by rich nations (U.S, Britain etc.) but absolutely forbidden to poorer countries. Castro didn't kill Cuba's sugar industry...the sugar industry is killing itself by overproducing and dumping.

If you'd done your history you would also know that global sugar prices had collapsed. It is no longer the gold mine industry it once was. Castro had very little to do with that failure.
He can't effect world prices, but by wedding industries to the government, he can effect how many of the mills run, in fact, whether they basically run it all. Much of the mills that still exist are using the same equipment from the 1950s, and it took him until 2002 to actually start closing down a lot of the industries - he finally shut down half of them. Inefficiency is a hallmark of communist governments. They neither took advantage of higher prices while they were there and then waited a while to cut back when they weren't there.

I would like to propose that the pro-Castros here read P.J. O'Rourke's Eat the Rich. He has a whole chapter on the problems he saw in Cuba.
Of course, if you, like most idiots, can't acutally read. Well then, you could interview one of the thousands of Cubans who have fled that shitpot of a country in order to come to the U.S. despite the fact that they were quite obviously better of as the playthings of a socialist dictator whose favorite hobbies are executing dissenters and ruining economies.

He can't effect world prices, but by wedding industries to the government, he can effect how many of the mills run, in fact, whether they basically run it all. Much of the mills that still exist are using the same equipment from the 1950s, and it took him until 2002 to actually start closing down a lot of the industries - he finally shut down half of them. Inefficiency is a hallmark of communist governments. They neither took advantage of higher prices while they were there and then waited a while to cut back when they weren't there.
because we have been boycotting them and limiting what they can receive since the 50s, of course nothing is new, if you were a broke ass nation and been boycotted sicne the 50s, you wouldnt have anything new since uh... 1950!

and your are pretending he is saying that castro crashed the sugar market, lets try no, he is saying the world sugar market crashed because of supply demand and other problems, that is what happened to the castro sugar industry


you are making up inane explanations for shit without looking at the big picture because you are close minded right winger who thinks communism is evil and collapses because it is inherently unworkable and because reagan told you so, lets ignore the fact the us controls lets see most everything in the world and we have decided to target and try and destroy every communsit nation in the world because oit is a threat to our uncaring capitalism, it is a wonder castro has lasted this long, just give up the partisan whinery



edit: obviously evil is in charge of many communsit regimes, but there is evil in charge of capitalist countries, see the majority of africa and south america and the middle east, evil does not only exist in communism, our nation and other nations would be in ruin did we not have our constitution and its control, think about that

In NationStates terms, we could blockade the East Pacific because my nation didn't like Loop. Prevent any EPers from transferring to or from other regions, not allow new EP spawns to move elsewhere, and so on. Does Loop suffer from this, with his captive audience of 6,000+? Not hardly. Do the nations under that banner have their freedoms restricted? You betcha.

All this talk about 'Castro did this' and 'Castro did that' is irrelevant. The blockade doesn't hurt Castro, it hurts Cubans. It doesn't help Americans either - Cuba could be a fine trading partner, but that traffic is going to the Netherlands, Russia, Canada, Spain and China, among others. American commercial flights don't land at HAV, and Cubana de Aviación planes can't land in the US. It's pretty much a case of 'you can't get there from here'.

The USA is cutting off its nose to spite its face. It's just dumb.

He can't effect world prices, but by wedding industries to the government, he can effect how many of the mills run, in fact, whether they basically run it all. Much of the mills that still exist are using the same equipment from the 1950s, and it took him until 2002 to actually start closing down a lot of the industries - he finally shut down half of them. Inefficiency is a hallmark of communist governments. They neither took advantage of higher prices while they were there and then waited a while to cut back when they weren't there.

I think the point you are missing is that even if Cuba had ultramodern machinery (and who would sell it to them and incure the wrath of the U.S?), and even if they were producing like mad, they still would not be making much off the sugar industry. India is not a communist nation and it too is finding that sugar production is not enriching its farmers the way they were promised. Castro needs to slowly wean Cuba off its reliance on sugar, and switch crops.

I think the point you are missing is that even if Cuba had ultramodern machinery (and who would sell it to them and incure the wrath of the U.S?), and even if they were producing like mad, they still would not be making much off the sugar industry. India is not a communist nation and it too is finding that sugar production is not enriching its farmers the way they were promised. Castro needs to slowly wean Cuba off its reliance on sugar, and switch crops.
But they persist (they still have a rather large sugar industry) to use old equipment from half a century ago, literally. It guzzles oil down and probably costs more than its worth to the government. But Castro & Co. keeps it there. It provides jobs. And if anything's wrong, they just blame it on the Americans like a lot of people do anyway. Its painful to cut the 200,000 or however many people are still left in the sugar industry from their jobs. It should be done, though.

I would like to propose that the pro-Castros here read P.J. O'Rourke's Eat the Rich. He has a whole chapter on the problems he saw in Cuba.
Of course, if you, like most idiots, can't acutally read. Well then, you could interview one of the thousands of Cubans who have fled that shitpot of a country in order to come to the U.S. despite the fact that they were quite obviously better of as the playthings of a socialist dictator whose favorite hobbies are executing dissenters and ruining economies.

Well thank you for lashing out against those who don't agree with you, rather than arguing in a rational way. I propose YOU interview the many more Cubans who refuse to leave Cuba (not just because it is a dangerous trip or can't afford it, but because they prefer to live in Cuba). As for ruining the economy...hmmm...Haiti is still the poorest country in the western hemisphere, and they've never been communist...in fact they had a great system of dictators (backed by the U.S) that actually DID murder thousands...now list some dissenters that have been executed by Castro...because the way you make it sound, he must be wading hip deep in blood. Meanwhile, I'll look up some figures for you on human rights abuses committed by the U.S IN the U.S (those outside are well documented too, but not necessary).

obviously evil is in charge of many communsit regimes
Communism has worked in a grand total of zero countries during the time its been around, as far as I can tell.

Well thank you for lashing out against those who don't agree with you, rather than arguing in a rational way. I propose YOU interview the many more Cubans who refuse to leave Cuba (not just because it is a dangerous trip or can't afford it, but because they prefer to live in Cuba). As for ruining the economy...hmmm...Haiti is still the poorest country in the western hemisphere, and they've never been communist...in fact they had a great system of dictators (backed by the U.S) that actually DID murder thousands...now list some dissenters that have been executed by Castro...because the way you make it sound, he must be wading hip deep in blood. Meanwhile, I'll look up some figures for you on human rights abuses committed by the U.S IN the U.S (those outside are well documented too, but not necessary).

And you just have to love how Castro places HIV and AIDs' cases in cozy little prisons.

BTW it is a very dangerous trip, what with the Cuban Air Force blasting away at floaters.

Let's start with the detainees (ironically enough) being kept in Cuba by the U.S: http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR511282004
In Guantanamo alone, 580 people have been held for over two years, and only 15 have fallen under the "enemy combatant" laws meaning they can continue to be detained indefinately. What about the others? Apparently they don't have rights because the U.S is holding them outside the U.S. Can you imagine if CUBA took 580 people and locked them up with no trial and no charges? (I know I said I wouldn't say anything about the U.S acting OUTSIDE the U.S, but just this once ok?)

RACISM AND THE DEATH PENALTY
"The USA will soon carry out its 300th execution of an African American prisoner since resuming judicial killing in 1977. By 10 April 2003, 290 blacks had been put to death, and at least a further 10 were scheduled to be killed by the end of July. African Americans are disproportionately represented among people condemned to death in the USA. While they make up 12 per cent of the national population, they account for more than 40 per cent of the country’s current death row inmates, and one in three of those executed since 1977. " http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engamr510462003

And please don't argue that blacks are inherently more violent or criminal. They just get executed for it more.

How about the detention of refugees and asylum seekers? Those Cubans you feel so sorry for might end up in jail as soon as they land on U.S shores...because Haitians and unacompanied migrant children are being detained by the hundreds. Are you aware that the U.S and Somalia are the only nations not to ratify the UN Declaration on the Rights of Children by the way? Good going there.

How about excessive force used by law enforcement? Read the report: http://web.amnesty.org/report2004/usa-summary-eng

There are so many human rights abuses happening in the U.S, a "democratic, free" country, yet when anything happens in a country you don't agree with, you jump all over it. Why is it okay for YOU to do it, and not them? (No one should get away with it, period.) Everyone is going crazy with this war on terrorism... the US, Britain, Australia, Colombia etc...and YES, Cuba too...

"Eighty-four prisoners of conscience remained held, seven of whom were awaiting trial at the end of the year" http://web.amnesty.org/report2004/cub-summary-eng

Cuba has reinstated the death penalty...and executed 3, with 50 others awaiting execution. But you can't really get too mad at them when the U.S seems to love the death penalty so much, and many of your trials are no more fair than what is done in Cuba. (remember the coroner who falsified so many cases in the US in order to assure the death penalty). The truth is BOTH countries are doing really terrible things, but that never gets mentioned when people start blasting Castro.

(By the way, in reply to the aids cases thing...read the Amnesty international report on mentally ill people being kept in terrible, unsanitary conditions IN the U.S)

For those complaining that it's all castro's fault - you DO know that Cuba is treated more harshly in it's sanctions than Iraq was right?

KBR made a fortune dealing with Iran and Iraq under sanctions because as a foreign-held subsidiary of Haliburton they were exempt from the sanctions. And the trade rpograms were put in place to allow some money to be made so that the Iraqi's didn't all starve or die of preventable disease. At right around the same time, the sanctions were increased against Cuba to make even such humanitarian aid for the people more dificult.

The Cuban Democracy Act of '92 made it illegal for foreign subsidiaries to trade with Cuba - even in the fields of medical supplies. So, as the mergers and aquisitions between US and overseas companies have increased, it has meant that sources for trade on pretty much everything have been drying up for Cuba.

Another nifty bit of that act include the stipulation that any ship that docks in Cuba to deliver anything cannot then dock at a US port for 120 days. It matters not if the delivery to Cuba was legal, the shipowner cannot then run a cargo to anywhere in the US. So, if you own a shipping company, doing business with Cuba severely complicates your ability to manage your fleet. Because of this fact companies charge Cuba a premium rate for perfectly legal shipments because of the fact that it limits it's abilities to do other trade.

Does this affect Castro personaly? No. Of course not. But it sure does keep the misery going for his people and inhibit Cuba's ability to enrich itself.


Oh, and as to the crack about Cuban's with HIV being put in jail, the initial isolation attemtps to control the disease were started in '86, relaxed in '89, and removed in '93. Cuba was, in some regards, ahead of the US with respect to Aids in that it recognized it as a threat and established the National Commission on Aids in 1983 to provide education on the disease, a full two years before the first Cuban national contracted the virus, and at a time when the word "Aids" carried such stigma, US President Ronald Reagan refused to use it in public speeches.

The end result: Cuba still has about the lowest rate of Aids in the world.

And please don't argue that blacks are inherently more violent or criminal. They just get executed for it more.

Not that Blacks in themselves are like genetically more violent, but they do make up a larger % of crimes than they proportionally should.

The blockade doesn't hurt Castro, it hurts Cubans. Very true.

The US has been trying to destroy the Cuban economy for 40 years but it only began succeeding in the 1990s when Soviet aid stopped pouring into Cuba.

As for Castro himself, Cuba's human rights record is significantly better than that of many other countries in the Caribbean/Latin America region (I don't see people complaining about the US-backed thugs ruling Haiti at the moment). It is still much better than the Batista regime which Castro replaced. Cuba also still faces a very real and proven threat from the United States.

Free education and health care are available to all, even those living in the remotest corners of the island. UNESCO statistics confirm that Cuba's rate of basic literacy is now among the highest in Latin America. Few Cuban children live on the streets - unlike in many neighbouring countries. Infant mortality rates are the lowest in the region (and slightly lower that those in the United States) and the nation has an excellent Health care system.

But they persist (they still have a rather large sugar industry) to use old equipment from half a century ago, literally. It guzzles oil down and probably costs more than its worth to the government. But Castro & Co. keeps it there. It provides jobs. And if anything's wrong, they just blame it on the Americans like a lot of people do anyway. Its painful to cut the 200,000 or however many people are still left in the sugar industry from their jobs. It should be done, though.
you do realise if america doesnt let them bring in the updated machinery they wont have it? wow, i like to call my invention logic

arrr, they have foin boxers, baseballers, pirates, rum, and tha world's most excellenest tobacca, arrr!

Communism has worked in a grand total of zero countries during the time its been around, as far as I can tell.
listen you right wing ignorant twit, if the best you got is to sit around and take quotes out of context then remake points i ALREADY REFUTED in the damned statement you are taking the quotes from, you have already lost the argument

And you just have to love how Castro places HIV and AIDs' cases in cozy little prisons.

BTW it is a very dangerous trip, what with the Cuban Air Force blasting away at floaters.
this is all we need, another ignorant, close minded right winger in this discussion

listen you right wing ignorant twit, if the best you got is to sit around and take quotes out of context then remake points i ALREADY REFUTED in the damned statement you are taking the quotes from, you have already lost the argument
I suppose name calling is a perfectly valid thing to do, though. Seems like its what half you your posts are, the other half being rhetoric. :p

listen you right wing ignorant twit, if the best you got is to sit around and take quotes out of context then remake points i ALREADY REFUTED in the damned statement you are taking the quotes from, you have already lost the argument

Come on...don't get mad silly rabbit :p . You just encourage lefty bashing when you do righty bashing.

I suppose name calling is a perfectly valid thing to do, though. Seems like its what half you your posts are, the other half being rhetoric. :p
there is a difference between rhetoric and logic

rhetoric: communism is evil and it has never suceeded

logic: communism fails because there has been a systematic destruction of all communist country's economies by the united states, thus they fail


and besides the fact you did not refute my point, you just made a statement to try and turn me into the bad guy without actually trying to disprove me, thus other stupid people assume me to be the bad guy and you to be the good guy without reading any other posts. common idiotical right tactic

"We did not seek the role of leadership that has been thrust upon us. But whether we like it or not, the events of our time demand America's participation."
- Ronald Reagan

As a sidebar....

Facts are stupid things.
--Ronald Reagan

Well, I learned a lot... I went down [to Latin America] to find out from them and [learn] their views. You'd be surprised. They're all individual countries.
--Ronald Reagan

115,000 acres of trees in the state park system is a lot to look at. How long can you look?
--Ronald Reagan

Trees cause more pollution than automobiles do.
--Ronald Reagan, 1981

We should declare war on North Vietnam... We could pave the whole country and put parking strips on it, and be home by Christmas.
--Ronald Reagan, 1965


I have wondered at times what the Ten Commandments would have looked like if Moses had run them through the U.S. Congress.
-- Ronald Reagan

Taxpayer: that's someone who works for the federal government but doesn't have to take the civil service examination.
-- Ronald Reagan

All I gotta say is, if Cuba is so great, how come you never hear about them deporting American boat refugees? :D

common idiotical right tactic
I was just correcting you. You said evil was in charge of many communist regimes. I said that every communist regime has failed and that its not just a characteristic of many, but of all.

You've got your logic down, though. At least the fallacy parts. Ad hominems, strawmans, begging the question, are just three of the most prevalent in your posts.

So terrified in fact that Goliath (the U.S, duh:)) tried desperately to stop communism from "spreading", backing the coup in Guatemala and resulting in 100,000 murders, backing the coup in Chile (Allende was not communist by the way, he was ELECTED) and resulting in the murders/disappearances of 3,000...in fact beginning a program known as Operation Condor to install dictators friendly to the U.S all over the southern cone. Is all this death and anti-democracy really worth it? What horrible damage has Cuba done to the U.S? If communism is such a bad system, let it die on its own...quit interfering...you just make it seem more desirable and rebellious:). Would Salvador Allende have murdered so many? Arbenz? Doubtful, and unknowable, for despite having been elected democratically, the U.S felt it more necessary to have puppets than elected officials in these countries. Hmmm...dictatorships are good as long as they aren't commie scum....I'll remember that the next time I take over Canada and install my henchmen.

(Allende was not communist by the way, he was ELECTED)
Allende wasn't communist, some of his allies were, and IIRC they were starting to make provocative moves.

I was just correcting you. You said evil was in charge of many communist regimes. I said that every communist regime has failed and that its not just a characteristic of many, but of all.

You've got your logic down, though. At least the fallacy parts. Ad hominems, strawmans, begging the question, are just three of the most prevalent in your posts.
wrong, many of the communist regimes' heads being evil is irrelevant to the fact of that they fail, lets go to fallacy of the undistributed middle for you.

if you dont mind, please quote the REST of my statement, not just the part there before the comma, but if you do that, it makes your point go bye bye, so you cant do that.

thus other stupid people assume me to be the bad guy and you to be the good guy without reading any other posts. common idiotical right tactic

Hmmm...I don't agree with him any more than you, but at least he's being polite (sorry for assuming gender by the way). I agree with you politically, but I like him more for his restraint.

All I gotta say is, if Cuba is so great, how come you never hear about them deporting American boat refugees? :D

Actually, a Cuban friend of mine told me that there is no immigration to Cuba allowed. I'm not sure he's correct, but I am going with his info here. Weird huh? Well, I guess that's to keep all us Canuks from taking over...I mean, no snow? Great rum? Cigars? Awesome music? I'm there!

wrong, many of the communist regimes' heads being evil is irrelevant to the fact of that they fail, lets go to fallacy of the undistributed middle for you.

if you dont mind, please quote the REST of my statement, not just the part there before the comma, but if you do that, it makes your point go bye bye, so you cant do that.

obviously evil is in charge of many communsit regimes, but there is evil in charge of capitalist countries, see the majority of africa and south america and the middle east, evil does not only exist in communism, our nation and other nations would be in ruin did we not have our constitution and its control, think about that
Ok, I don't see how that makes my point bad. I never said that all capitalist countries are good. You were saying that evil exists under ever economic system, and I didn't dispute that... take a look at your own quote. Maybe you forget what context it was in.

Hmmm...I don't agree with him any more than you, but at least he's being polite (sorry for assuming gender by the way). I agree with you politically, but I like him more for his restraint.
i dont frankly care, politics should be decided by political stance, not who can "restrain" themselves best, thats what killed dean, the right wing propaganda machine made a scene of his yelling in that one speech to paint him as unstable and unfit to lead, everyone listened to them though the fact they agreed with where dean stood. it was hilarious no doubt, but it shouldnt have cost him his shot at the presidency

Ok, I don't see how that makes my point bad. I never said that all capitalist countries are good. You were saying that evil exists under ever economic system, and I didn't dispute that... take a look at your own quote. Maybe you forget what context it was in.
you say that all leaders of communism are evil thus it fails, were that true all capitalist nations would fail, its not the fact that communist or capitalist countries have evil dictators, its that no communist country has yet to set up a well balanced constitution to protect rights and govern how things are done.
communism fails because the countries have yet to have a governing set of rules that would be unbreakable or hard to do so, lets not to mention my previous statement of the systematic destruction of the economies of all communist nations by the united states

Allende wasn't communist, some of his allies were, and IIRC they were starting to make provocative moves.

Provocative hmmm?? Did they moon the U.S or wave their genitals in their general direction (to paraphrase Monty Python)? No really... does that justify the economic blockade, creating a crisis then blaming it wholly on Allende, then giving the go ahead for Pinochet and his cronies to bomb La Moneda, killing Allende, and installing a reign of terror? A bit more justification is needed to disrupt the sovereignty of another nation than that.

i dont frankly care, politics should be decided by political stance, not who can "restrain" themselves best, thats what killed dean, the right wing propaganda machine made a scene of his yelling in that one speech to paint him as unstable and unfit to lead, everyone listened to them though the fact they agreed with where dean stood. it was hilarious no doubt, but it shouldnt have cost him his shot at the presidency

You know, I'm not sure if it's like this on the right, but I've often found that lefties squabble with each other constantly over little things. In any case, I'm quoting you entirely, not taking you out of context and here's what I have to say:

I'd rather debate an issue with a rational right winger who backs up what he/she is saying with facts rathing than regressing to insults, than with a leftie who I am ideologically compatible with, but who can not frame a reasonable response rooted in well-thought out positions rather than emotion. By no means should you restrain your views, no matter how radical. Restraint in a politcal debate (to me) means that you react reasonably to a view you don't agree with, and not result to insults that do nothing to further your position. Feel free to disagree (my hubby is a raver too, and we decided to not discuss politics, even though we agree with each other:)), but realise you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar...that is assuming you are actually trying to convince someone that your argument is better....

well you know about assumptions....

Allende wasn't communist, some of his allies were, and IIRC they were starting to make provocative moves.

Provocative moves against multinational PepsiCo, who helped get him killed.

Sinuhue: "realise you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar...that is assuming you are actually trying to convince someone that your argument is better...."

Nobody on NS is convinced of anything other than their own superiority.

Sinuhue: "realise you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar...that is assuming you are actually trying to convince someone that your argument is better...."

Nobody on NS is convinced of anything other than their own superiority.

That's a blatant generalisation...I really enjoy NS because there are so many different spectrums being represented...yes, many are not planning on changing their opinions ever, no matter how reasonable the opposing argument, but I HAVE met a fair amount of reasonable right and left wingers and had some good points shown to me and visa versa (I hope). You sound like you've lost your faith in humanity:). I honestly don't think I'm superiour to anyone...ok, that's not entirely true...I just don't think I'm superior to EVERYONE:).

Well thank you for lashing out against those who don't agree with you, rather than arguing in a rational way.
You're welcome.

I propose YOU interview the many more Cubans who refuse to leave Cuba (not just because it is a dangerous trip or can't afford it, but because they prefer to live in Cuba).
Ah, so I should go to a country where the primary businesses are crime and law enforcement. A country where anyone and everyone is reporting back to the government. A country filled with secret police.
I should go to this country and ask someone how they feel about the man who has absolute and total control of the island. The man who could have them taken away and never seen again overnight.
Then I should beleive them, and I shouldn't suspect that maybe, just maybe, they are afraid for their safety adn those around them?

As for ruining the economy...hmmm...Haiti is still the poorest country in the western hemisphere, and they've never been communist...in fact they had a great system of dictators (backed by the U.S) that actually DID murder thousands...
Haiti is also bordering on anarchy. The reason Haiti is trash is that all of the industrious and/or smart people have found a way to get off of that doomed island.

now list some dissenters that have been executed by Castro...because the way you make it sound, he must be wading hip deep in blood. Meanwhile, I'll look up some figures for you on human rights abuses committed by the U.S IN the U.S (those outside are well documented too, but not necessary).
I would, but it just so happens that, unlike the U.S., it is impossible to get records of anything in Cuba. They don't even release economic figures reliably. So, do you honestly suspect that they'll release a record of who they've killed each year?

You know, I'm not sure if it's like this on the right, but I've often found that lefties squabble with each other constantly over little things. In any case, I'm quoting you entirely, not taking you out of context and here's what I have to say:

I'd rather debate an issue with a rational right winger who backs up what he/she is saying with facts rathing than regressing to insults, than with a leftie who I am ideologically compatible with, but who can not frame a reasonable response rooted in well-thought out positions rather than emotion. By no means should you restrain your views, no matter how radical. Restraint in a politcal debate (to me) means that you react reasonably to a view you don't agree with, and not result to insults that do nothing to further your position. Feel free to disagree (my hubby is a raver too, and we decided to not discuss politics, even though we agree with each other:)), but realise you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar...that is assuming you are actually trying to convince someone that your argument is better....

well you know about assumptions....
i found your problem, in your statement you made, you assumed the right wigner was backing up his statements with facts, what has kwangistar done but try to irrationally reationalise stuff and change the focus of the discussion in order to work in a straw man without anyone noticing. i try my hardest to avoid using propaganda and stick to facts (from being in the we the people competition) however i tend to lose my temper some what when confronted with some one who likes to take things out of context and rationalise stuff that cannot be rationalise and in whole ignoring everything i said

Ah, so I should go to a country where the primary businesses are crime and law enforcement.

Okay...back THAT statement up with some facts please...and don't fall behind your excuse that there aren't any reliable numbers. If Cuba is such a hotspot for crime, at least SOME NGO out there should have some info.

A country where anyone and everyone is reporting back to the government. A country filled with secret police.

Getting a little hysterical are we? Filled with secret police is it...again, prove it.

I should go to this country and ask someone how they feel about the man who has absolute and total control of the island. The man who could have them taken away and never seen again overnight.
Then I should beleive them, and I shouldn't suspect that maybe, just maybe, they are afraid for their safety adn those around them?

You are talking about people being disappeared in Cuba. Again, I demand proof, and before you say it, of course no government would admit to doing it, but still numbers get out. Chile, Argentina, Bolivia, all had massive numbers of disappeared...and even while it was happening, people found out about it. You can hide the total numbers, certainly, but you can not hide the fact that it is going on. So show me it is happening, and that you are basing your statements on more than an inherent dislike for Castro.


Haiti is also bordering on anarchy. The reason Haiti is trash is that all of the industrious and/or smart people have found a way to get off of that doomed island.

Why is Haiti doomed? (and I disagree..I don't think any nation is DOOMED) Haiti was the first country in the world to outlaw slavery, yet it became enslaved once again to U.S backed dictators Papa and Baby Doc. The U.S has intervened so many times I don't know why they just don't set up permanent shop there. (removing Aristade twice, then reinstating him) My point about Haiti was that it is obstensibly a democracy, yet it is worse shape than Cuba, so democracy does not automatically equal economic stability.


I would, but it just so happens that, unlike the U.S., it is impossible to get records of anything in Cuba. They don't even release economic figures reliably. So, do you honestly suspect that they'll release a record of who they've killed each year?

It is not impossible... in fact there are a wide array of facts available on Cuba, from Amnesty International, the WHO, the World Fact Book (printed in Uruguay), the CIA fact book etc. I think the problem here is you don't want to look at the facts, because they don't back you up as strongly as you'd like. All administrations hide things by the way... you think the U.S is clear and open about everything it taught people in the School of the Americas? Or it's involvement in Operation Condor? Those things were leaked out, not broadcasted to the general public. The main thing is dirty secrets have a way of getting out, no matter the country, so don't try to say that the facts aren't available.

i found your problem, in your statement you made, you assumed the right wigner was backing up his statements with facts, what has kwangistar done but try to irrationally reationalise stuff and change the focus of the discussion in order to work in a straw man without anyone noticing. i try my hardest to avoid using propaganda and stick to facts (from being in the we the people competition) however i tend to lose my temper some what when confronted with some one who likes to take things out of context and rationalise stuff that cannot be rationalise and in whole ignoring everything i said

Noted, and understood:). Hey, catch me a night after a day of screaming kids and see how punchy I can get :headbang: . I felt like getting on my high horse for a bit there:). No seriously, I find that when I'm in a political debate with someone, left or right, and they start flinging insults, it's usually because they feel like I am attacking THEM instead of their ideas. Some people identify so much with their beliefs that they hold on to them no matter how many holes you punch in their argument (I'm not talking about you here at all). Usually these are people who really haven't thought out their positions all that well and they don't like being on shaky ground. I've had plenty of people calm down later, then think about what I said and either shore up their beliefs or change their minds a bit. It's all good...I just hate it when insults are flung because the conversations usually stagnates at that point. Anyhow, enough ranting for me :D .

Perhaps you don't remember, do you. Once upon a time, Castro threatened the US in a very big way. The US sanctions, as well as automatically granting asylum to Cubans in the US, are ways to make sure that Castro has as uncomfortable of a time in office as he can. Of course, I don't think it was foreseen that Castro would be alive this long. But I'm sure the sanctions will be lifted when he either dies, or he steps down.

I give up, Sinuheu. I spend to damn much of my time researching things that have nothing to do with me already.
Can we agree to disagree, and I'll just let you be pro-Cuba and I'll be anti-Cuba?
But you really should listen to some Cuban escapees, they can tell you a story or two about beloved Castro. Though why they've come to a country that is, as you have said, so obviously pure evil and a million times worse than the one they used to live in is beyond me.
Maybe we're all just stupid americans . . .

Hm. Perhaps I can add a few facts, to this somewhat disturbing lack of them. Fidel Castro, the son of a rich farmer, grew up in what was nominally a democracy, but actually gave the US veto power over anything the Cuban government tried.

He trained as a lawyer in the University of Havana, which had an extremely active and dangerous political scene. When he graduated, he frequently worked as a lawyer for those who couldn't otherwise afford one.

Fidel had been running for office the year that Batista's 10 March coup took place. The coup had full US support, as did the Batista regime.

At no point did Fidel ever have US support. Eisenhower first came into conflict with him over the issue of agrarian reform, one of the main projects of the 26 July Movement.

Cuba appropriated land from the big owners(mostly US). Eisenhower stopped buying sugar. Cuba turned to the USSR, which bought their surplus sugar. Castro asked US-based corporate owned refineries in Cuba to refine Soviet oil. At the insistence of the US government, they refused.

Castro had them nationalized. Which led to the blockade.

The USSR is the key reason that Cuba kept producing sugar, rather than pursuing industrialization. However, their sugar industry became highly mechanized. It broke down with the collapse of the Soviet Union, and the loss of the oil they were able to import.

Since then, Cuba has been more isolated from the world than ever. It seems, however, that a good portion of Cubans still support Castro, for the simple reason that, even during the 'special period' after the collapse of the Soviet Union, few people starved or couldn't find clothing or shelter.

When judging Fidel, one must also remember that Cuba is a country under siege. Since the time of Jefferson, America has believed Cuba to be 'theirs'. Now, it is a dangerous triumph of revolutionary ideology--which is why we are so vehemently against it, here in the US.

The reality is that today, Cuba is in far better shape than the USSR, fifty years after the October Revolution. Castro, no matter how many people we claim he killed, has a far better record than Fulgencia Batista.

Cuba supported Angola militarily against South Africa. They currently have doctors serving the poorest areas in Venezuela, for the cost of food and shelter. For a small island, ninety miles off the coast of the greatest military power in the world, I'd say they've done damn well for themselves.

Go ahead and be glad you don't live there. But I doubt you'd find the position of a third-world peasant, landless and starving, any better. In Cuba, everyone has a chance at education, and health care when they need it. Which is a hell of a lot better than any regime that we have supported.

Perhaps you don't remember, do you. Once upon a time, Castro threatened the US in a very big way. The US sanctions, as well as automatically granting asylum to Cubans in the US, are ways to make sure that Castro has as uncomfortable of a time in office as he can. Of course, I don't think it was foreseen that Castro would be alive this long. But I'm sure the sanctions will be lifted when he either dies, or he steps down.

At that point, Castro was the unwitting tool of the Soviets, and in fact was so angered by his second-citizen status that he drastically reduced ties to the Soviet Union after the missle crisis. The Soviets used Cuba as a staging zone to be a threat to the US...the Cubans do not have nuclear weapons, so they are not a nuclear threat. The sanctions are meant to punish a nation for daring to stay communist and anti-imperialist. Even the world community disagrees with the sanctions and in 2003 the UN voted against the embargo on Cuba, backing up almost yearly cries for the same thing. Frankly, the unilateral blockade is purely punative, and punishing an entire nation simply because you don't like their leader is silly, to say the least. But that's just my humble opinion:).

At that point, Castro was the unwitting tool of the Soviets, and in fact was so angered by his second-citizen status that he drastically reduced ties to the Soviet Union after the missle crisis. The Soviets used Cuba as a staging zone to be a threat to the US...the Cubans do not have nuclear weapons, so they are not a nuclear threat. The sanctions are meant to punish a nation for daring to stay communist and anti-imperialist. Even the world community disagrees with the sanctions and in 2003 the UN voted against the embargo on Cuba, backing up almost yearly cries for the same thing. Frankly, the unilateral blockade is purely punative, and punishing an entire nation simply because you don't like their leader is silly, to say the least. But that's just my humble opinion:).
That leader was inches away from starting WWIII, and the opening shots would've been the destruction of US cities. It is therefore imperative that we make Castro uncomfortable. Once he leaves office, the sanctions will disapear, and trade will be normal. Until then, Castro is gonna have a bitch of a time in Cuba.

I give up, Sinuheu. I spend to damn much of my time researching things that have nothing to do with me already.
Can we agree to disagree, and I'll just let you be pro-Cuba and I'll be anti-Cuba?
But you really should listen to some Cuban escapees, they can tell you a story or two about beloved Castro. Though why they've come to a country that is, as you have said, so obviously pure evil and a million times worse than the one they used to live in is beyond me.
Maybe we're all just stupid americans . . .

Well frankly, you shouldn't have been making those claims without researching them first. Yes, we can agree to disagree. I never said Castro was my beloved (that would be my husband), and I've never said I agree with everything he does. Nor have I ever said that the U.S is pure evil or that you are all stupid americans, so don't insinuate that I have. As for speaking to Cuban escapees, they'll tell you what we all know...Cuba is poor, there aren't a lot of opportunities for capital advancement and it is a dictatorship. Some of them have faced real persecution, but hey, so have U.S citizens. If they want to leave, fine, and there should be some way of making sure it's a safer trip. However, their stories and experiences, valid as they are, do not automatically superceed the experiences of Cubans who genuinely love their nation despite its flaws (as many citizens in the U.S love their country despite ITS flaws, as I love Canada depite..etc.etc.) and who do not want the U.S to continuing intervening in their affairs.

That leader was inches away from starting WWIII, and the opening shots would've been the destruction of US cities. It is therefore imperative that we make Castro uncomfortable. Once he leaves office, the sanctions will disapear, and trade will be normal. Until then, Castro is gonna have a bitch of a time in Cuba.

Is Cuba currently a threat to the U.S (other than ideologically, mira yanqui como nos reímos, jajajajjaja) in any way? Are you seriously going to hold this grudge? If so, why aren't you blocking Russia? It still has tonnes of nukes, and THEY were the ones you were butting heads with during the cold war. Cuba was a staging point...you know, like Turkey was for you guys during the Gulf War...no the initiator of the missle crisis. You say the blockades will stop when Castros dies...IF someone comes into power that is pro-U.S. If they continue to run things similar to Castro, the blockades will continue. Even many members of your own government think the blockades are counterproductive and nonsensical. Quit punishing the people for a leader they had no choice in because it's not just "Castro" having a "bitch of a time in Cuba".

Is Cuba currently a threat to the U.S (other than ideologically, mira yanqui como nos reímos, jajajajjaja) in any way? Are you seriously going to hold this grudge? If so, why aren't you blocking Russia? It still has tonnes of nukes, and THEY were the ones you were butting heads with during the cold war. Cuba was a staging point...you know, like Turkey was for you guys during the Gulf War...no the initiator of the missle crisis. You say the blockades will stop when Castros dies...IF someone comes into power that is pro-U.S. If they continue to run things similar to Castro, the blockades will continue. Even many members of your own government think the blockades are counterproductive and nonsensical. Quit punishing the people for a leader they had no choice in because it's not just "Castro" having a "bitch of a time in Cuba".
Well, the Cuban-Americans seem to like the idea of sanctioning Cuba. I don't see why its counterproductive, either. The Cubans have little, if anything, to offer us.
And what makes you think that the sanctions would continue should Castro die?

That leader was inches away from starting WWIII, and the opening shots would've been the destruction of US cities. It is therefore imperative that we make Castro uncomfortable. Once he leaves office, the sanctions will disapear, and trade will be normal. Until then, Castro is gonna have a bitch of a time in Cuba.
you are making the assumption they will be lifted, and even if they are there is a VERY high chance some one 10x worse will take over and even with US support the nation will fall into a totalitarian ruin

Well, the Cuban-Americans seem to like the idea of sanctioning Cuba. I don't see why its counterproductive, either. The Cubans have little, if anything, to offer us.
And what makes you think that the sanctions would continue should Castro die?

It's counterproductive because Cuba has something the U.S always wants...a market for its goods. Agricultural goods (foodstuffs) are in great demand in Cuba, especially after hurricanes and assorted bad weather. Cuba needs pharmaceutical supplies, and wants a million other products the U.S should only be too happy to provide. I'm actually suprised that greed hasn't overcome the need to punish Castro.

You say the blockades will stop when Castros dies...IF someone comes into power that is pro-U.S. If they continue to run things similar to Castro, the blockades will continue.

I've already said why I think the sanctions MIGHT continue...why do you think they wouldn't?

Well, the Cuban-Americans seem to like the idea of sanctioning Cuba.

By the way, pro-Pinochet Chileans around the world don't think he should be charged for causing 3,000 plus people to be murdered or disappeared. It doesn't make them right, it just means they have an opinion.

Well, the Cuban-Americans seem to like the idea of sanctioning Cuba. I don't see why its counterproductive, either. The Cubans have little, if anything, to offer us.
And what makes you think that the sanctions would continue should Castro die?
that turns it into more a political game than anything else

you play the cuban-americans dont like castro game to gain votes while crushing the cuban economy and people, try again if you think castro is hurting that bad, and turning away those cubans who have relatives still in cuba.

It's counterproductive because Cuba has something the U.S always wants...a market for its goods. Agricultural goods (foodstuffs) are in great demand in Cuba, especially after hurricanes and assorted bad weather. Cuba needs pharmaceutical supplies, and wants a million other products the U.S should only be too happy to provide. I'm actually suprised that greed hasn't overcome the need to punish Castro.
There's something more powerful than greed, and it's called the Cuban-American lobby.



I've already said why I think the sanctions MIGHT continue...why do you think they wouldn't?
Because whomever Castro chooses to succeed him, this new guy will not threaten the US the way Castro did. If he really threatens our security, it's not hard to remove the new guy. Otherwise, I don't see why the sanctions need to continue. Just a limited trade status until the new guy improves the human rights record.

I'm actually suprised that greed hasn't overcome the need to punish Castro.
political games override monetary greed, funding from big business is useless if you arnt in office, so votes must come before playing into the hands of corporations

There's something more powerful than greed, and it's called the Cuban-American lobby.
LOL

Because whomever Castro chooses to succeed him, this new guy will not threaten the US the way Castro did.
Emphasis on the DID, and it was more the Soviets than Castro, so again I ask why you don't sanction them 50 years later...how does Castro currently threaten the U.S??

If he really threatens our security, it's not hard to remove the new guy.

You're talking about a coup, which yes, the U.S is good at orchestrating. You would install your own puppet dictator then? Or a spineless puppet that pretends to be democratic? Why haven't you been able to "remove" (re:assassinate) Castro then if it's so easy?

Otherwise, I don't see why the sanctions need to continue. Just a limited trade status until the new guy improves the human rights record.

The U.S has no problem with dealing with human rights abusers....they traded with Suharto, they traded with Pinochet, they trade with China and so on and so on. Cuba is much less a human rights abusers than any of these examples, and that is NOT why you don't trade with them. In any case, we won't know what will happen with sanctions until Castro dies, so let's just wait until then to see who's right:). (I mean left)

Emphasis on the DID, and it was more the Soviets than Castro, so again I ask why you don't sanction them 50 years later...how does Castro currently threaten the U.S??
Embargoing them would be hard. Besides, Russia is now a far different country. He doesn't btw, threaten the US, but he certainly did. And sanctioning Cuba is a way to show even greater rouge nations that there aren't pretty consequences for threatening US security. I call it a proactive policy, but I'm sure you'd like me to call it a warning.



You're talking about a coup, which yes, the U.S is good at orchestrating. You would install your own puppet dictator then? Or a spineless puppet that pretends to be democratic? Why haven't you been able to "remove" (re:assassinate) Castro then if it's so easy?
Gerald Ford's executive order against assasinations pretty much killed that prospect. Of course, I'm sure the president could make an exeption for Castro.


The U.S has no problem with dealing with human rights abusers....they traded with Suharto, they traded with Pinochet, they trade with China and so on and so on. Cuba is much less a human rights abusers than any of these examples, and that is NOT why you don't trade with them. In any case, we won't know what will happen with sanctions until Castro dies, so let's just wait until then to see who's right:). (I mean left)
That was the past. This is now, and we aren't eager in repeating the same mistakes that we did during the Cold War.

That was the past. This is now, and we aren't eager in repeating the same mistakes that we did during the Cold War.

It isn't THAT far in the past (Pinochet, 73-90, Suharto 67-98) and the U.S is STILL trading with China, and those aren't the only human rights abusers the U.S trades with...still. You can't repeat the same mistakes that you did during the Cold War, because the world is no longer bipolar (hehehe, sounds like it was manic/depressive for a while, maybe I'm using the wrong term).

He doesn't btw, threaten the US, but he certainly did. And sanctioning Cuba is a way to show even greater rouge nations that there aren't pretty consequences for threatening US security. I call it a proactive policy, but I'm sure you'd like me to call it a warning.

"A rogue state, in the most general sense, is a state that abides neither by international law nor international standards of proper governance and behaviour."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_nation

The U.S, by its own standards is a rogue nation...but that is another thread all together;). Is this "warning"an explicit part of the sanctions legislation, or just a hunch?? (trying to find a copy of the official position)

This is El Presidente de Olivettlia, Senor Pulpo Fantasma. Fidel and I grew up rolling the cigars together...but in '59 during the revolucion I thought he might marginalize me politically so I hit the beach. I had to leave my Cuba and my darling Juana Cubana's behind. I built a little raft and with a paddle I made from a stalk of sugar cane and the rear view mirrow from my '51 Mercury I paddled...and paddled...and paddled. I was so thirsty I was hallucinating that I was sipping Cuba Libres at the Copacabana! When I washed up on the shore of Olivettlia, Juan Gabon, currently my trusted Secretary of Social Diseases told me, "Man this ain't the Copacabana, and you are drinking your own urine, dude!" Well, "a hard rain's gonna fall" for everyone - and that last cup of piss was all I needed to make a change in my life and the future of Olivettlia. Soon, everyone knew of Pulpo Fantasma. I am not really a dictator, I am a lobster fisherman and a lover of good clams. I am a teacher and a leader of this great culture. Fidel he is my old buddy, but he is over the hill, when he is gone so will be Communist Cuba. Then Americans will be able to go to the Copacabana for a glass of Cuba Libre, a cigar and a good ham sandwich! Cheers!

It isn't THAT far in the past (Pinochet, 73-90, Suharto 67-98) and the U.S is STILL trading with China, and those aren't the only human rights abusers the U.S trades with...still. You can't repeat the same mistakes that you did during the Cold War, because the world is no longer bipolar (hehehe, sounds like it was manic/depressive for a while, maybe I'm using the wrong term).
China has improved dramatically. Suharto may have been more recent, but not Pinochet. He was around during the Cold War.



"A rogue state, in the most general sense, is a state that abides neither by international law nor international standards of proper governance and behaviour."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_nation

The U.S, by its own standards is a rogue nation...but that is another thread all together;). Is this "warning"an explicit part of the sanctions legislation, or just a hunch?? (trying to find a copy of the official position)
I don't know. But it certainly gets the message across.

In any case, I haven't heard much to really back up the blockade on Cuba, or explain why the mainstream opinion of Cuba and Castro is so rancorous.

In any case, I haven't heard much to really back up the blockade on Cuba, or explain why the mainstream opinion of Cuba and Castro is so rancorous.
I keep telling you that it's because of Castro's history. And while we're add it, Castro was the main factor in trying to spread Latin American communism, which would threaten the US. I'm sure it would be a non-issue, however, if Castro didn't live this long. He's like the Energizer Bunny.

Cuban cigars-we ain't got no steenkin' embargo!

Embargoing them would be hard. Besides, Russia is now a far different country. He doesn't btw, threaten the US, but he certainly did. And sanctioning Cuba is a way to show even greater rouge nations that there aren't pretty consequences for threatening US security. I call it a proactive policy, but I'm sure you'd like me to call it a warning.
oh yeah, embargoing a nation for 50 years will sure show those other nations with evil rulers ... the ones we are already trading with....





That was the past. This is now, and we aren't eager in repeating the same mistakes that we did during the Cold War.
im pretty sure we are still trading with china and middle eastern and african and sotuh american nations

oh yeah, embargoing a nation for 50 years will sure show those other nations with evil rulers ... the ones we are already trading with....






im pretty sure we are still trading with china and middle eastern and african and sotuh american nations
Some have better human rights records than others. But that's not the whole point, here. The same leader they have today, Fidel Castro, repeatedly threatened national security. It's a wonder that the CIA hasn't sent another hit team after him.

Some have better human rights records than others. But that's not the whole point, here. The same leader they have today, Fidel Castro, repeatedly threatened national security. It's a wonder that the CIA hasn't sent another hit team after him.
you mean when he let the russians put missiles there? thats the only time i can think of cuba has EVEN been a threat to national security, i will presume you can and will provide examples of hi mdoing it repeatedly

you mean when he let the russians put missiles there? thats the only time i can think of cuba has EVEN been a threat to national security, i will presume you can and will provide examples of hi mdoing it repeatedly
Of course I will. Cuba has been (and still is) the patron of Latin American communism. He's supported the Sadanistas of Nicaragua, as well as communist insurgencies in El Salvador, Costa Rica, Mexico, Venezuela, and Columbia. He is rumored to have personally provided troops to back up the communist regime in Grenada. All of which threaten the US because it allowed the Soviets more leverage right in our backyard.

you mean when he let the russians put missiles there? thats the only time i can think of cuba has EVEN been a threat to national security, i will presume you can and will provide examples of hi mdoing it repeatedly

She (right gender?) has already said the Castro hasn't been a threat since then, [just read the above post, ok, now you go an mention something!:)] and that the blockade is to act as a deterrant to other rogue nations. I myself think it a flimsy reason as Japan, Russia and Canada have all been a threat to the U.S too at one time (we burned down the White House in 1812...could be time for a repeat;)), and yet none of these nations are suffering from crushing sanctions.

By the way, I like the Energizer Bunny remark Euclid :D .

She (right gender?) has already said the Castro hasn't been a threat since then, [just read the above post, ok, now you go an mention something!:)] and that the blockade is to act as a deterrant to other rogue nations. I myself think it a flimsy reason as Japan, Russia and Canada have all been a threat to the U.S too at one time (we burned down the White House in 1812...could be time for a repeat;)), and yet none of these nations are suffering from crushing sanctions.

By the way, I like the Energizer Bunny remark Euclid :D .
Thanks. And I won't tell you my gender, but I'll tell you that I'm not a she.

Of course I will. Cuba has been (and still is) the patron of Latin American communism. He's supported the Sadanistas of Nicaragua, as well as communist insurgencies in El Salvador, Costa Rica, Mexico, Venezuela, and Columbia. He is rumored to have personally provided troops to back up the communist regime in Grenada. All of which threaten the US because it allowed the Soviets more leverage right in our backyard.
and we supported rebels in colombia whats your point? and the soviet union is you know dead, you people are just afraid of socialism and communism not for any reason, just scared

She (right gender?) has already said the Castro hasn't been a threat since then, [just read the above post, ok, now you go an mention something!:)] and that the blockade is to act as a deterrant to other rogue nations. I myself think it a flimsy reason as Japan, Russia and Canada have all been a threat to the U.S too at one time (we burned down the White House in 1812...could be time for a repeat;)), and yet none of these nations are suffering from crushing sanctions.

By the way, I like the Energizer Bunny remark Euclid :D .
deterrent to what other rogue nations? our own? we dont care about other rogue nations, long as they are capitalist and let us do as we please

and we supported rebels in colombia whats your point? and the soviet union is you know dead, you people are just afraid of socialism and communism not for any reason, just scared
This is as punishment.
And btw, it is true that the US has supported rebels in Colombia, but they are right wing rebels. Why we supported them, I don't know, but if they got to power, they wouldn't be buddies with the Soviets.

That leader was inches away from starting WWIII, and the opening shots would've been the destruction of US cities. It is therefore imperative that we make Castro uncomfortable. Once he leaves office, the sanctions will disapear, and trade will be normal. Until then, Castro is gonna have a bitch of a time in Cuba.


"That leader", of course, being Kruschev (sp?).

Did Castro allow his ally to put a missile base on his property?

Yep.


Just like we did in So many western European countries.

None of which has ANY bearing on today, and none of which had any real bearing on Castro at the time that our allies weren't also doing for us. The showdown was between Washington and Moscow. Havana was never included in the conference call and the Russians never gave him any control over that installation - just as Berlin never had control of US missile bases in their country. So - your argument is rather thin.


BTW, you DO know that the sanctions were put in place BEFORE the missile crisis right?


But hey - if punishing joe average Cuban for the actions of a Russian premiere 40 years ago seems like the right thing to do to you, well I guess we are all entitled to our own opinions.

But to me that just seems petty as hell!

This is as punishment.
And btw, it is true that the US has supported rebels in Colombia, but they are right wing rebels. Why we supported them, I don't know, but if they got to power, they wouldn't be buddies with the Soviets.
bingo, you just supported what i said. the US has an inherent fear of communism and socialism and for the most part not even knowing what it is except the soviets were communists so all communism is evil, but capitalism is good because the US is good. thats a number of logical fallacies im sure.

there is no reason to keep embargonig cuba unless they give us a reason, all we are doing is squeezing the lower class people. and since we dont accept any refugees, i do recall we have coast guards running through there sending people back to cuba.

"That leader", of course, being Kruschev (sp?).

Did Castro allow his ally to put a missile base on his property?

Yep.


Just like we did in So many western European countries.

None of which has ANY bearing on today, and none of which had any real bearing on Castro at the time that our allies weren't also doing for us. The showdown was between Washington and Moscow. Havana was never included in the conference call and the Russians never gave him any control over that installation - just as Berlin never had control of US missile bases in their country. So - your argument is rather thin.


BTW, you DO know that the sanctions were put in place BEFORE the missile crisis right?


But hey - if punishing joe average Cuban for the actions of a Russian premiere 40 years ago seems like the right thing to do to you, well I guess we are all entitled to our own opinions.

But to me that just seems petty as hell!
That's the beauty of it, of course. Russia couldn't set up a blockade on Turkey. This is what I find is the beauty of war: when you're side has all of the advantages.
Of course, Cuba has to be punished for other things. But as for the average Cuban, I support something like another Mariel boat lift. 125,000 Cubans took advantage of that.

bingo, you just supported what i said. the US has an inherent fear of communism and socialism and for the most part not even knowing what it is except the soviets were communists so all communism is evil, but capitalism is good because the US is good. thats a number of logical fallacies im sure.
This communist nation, of course, wanted to eventually destroy the US.

there is no reason to keep embargonig cuba unless they give us a reason, all we are doing is squeezing the lower class people. and since we dont accept any refugees, i do recall we have coast guards running through there sending people back to cuba.
It's a wet foot/dry foot policy, as the Coast Guard calls it. If Cubans are caught at sea, they are repatriated. If they make it to land undetected, then they are automatically granted asylum.

Let's just agree that the U.S has this unreasoning fear of communism...but if that is so, why are you trading with THE PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA!!!???? Yes, they are incorporating capitalist practices, but they are still communist, and a heck of a lot more powerful than Cuba! Your argument seems outdated, as lifting sanctions would not likely mean a rush to go be communist...more like elected socialists (which is becoming more prevalent DESPITE the blockade, Brazil, Venezuala...gasp...SPAIN!)...you support Canada, and we have socialist tendencies....should we expect sanctions once you realise you've overlooked the "commie" threat to the north?

Of course I will. Cuba has been (and still is) the patron of Latin American communism. He's supported the Sadanistas of Nicaragua, as well as communist insurgencies in El Salvador, Costa Rica, Mexico, Venezuela, and Columbia. He is rumored to have personally provided troops to back up the communist regime in Grenada. All of which threaten the US because it allowed the Soviets more leverage right in our backyard.

And the cold war ended what? nearly 20 years ago now?

How many insurgencies did we back at the same time? And how many by our allies? Hell, we've normalized relations with every single other former Soviet Block ally - many of whom did the same or more. So, why does Cuba continue to get punished when we have decided to try and move forward in peace with al of the rest of the former Soviet Empire?

What did they do that was worse than Russia? Vietnam? China? East Germany? Bulgaria?



Why are we still starving poor people except out of petty vindictiveness?


You have made a case for the sanctions.... right up until about the mid- or late-80s. Please explain the last 15 years with a compelling reason why Cubans still deserve this punishment.

Let's just agree that the U.S has this unreasoning fear of communism...but if that is so, why are you trading with THE PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA!!!???? Yes, they are incorporating capitalist practices, but they are still communist, and a heck of a lot more powerful than Cuba! Your argument seems outdated, as lifting sanctions would not likely mean a rush to go be communist...more like elected socialists (which is becoming more prevalent DESPITE the blockade, Brazil, Venezuala...gasp...SPAIN!)...you support Canada, and we have socialist tendencies....should we expect sanctions once you realise you've overlooked the "commie" threat to the north?
It's not even that. It is to make sure that Castro has as miserable of a time in office as possible. Of course, I have to say that the US is failing miserably.

And the cold war ended what? nearly 20 years ago now?

How many insurgencies did we back at the same time? And how many by our allies? Hell, we've normalized relations with every single other former Soviet Block ally - many of whom did the same or more. So, why does Cuba continue to get punished when we have decided to try and move forward in peace with al of the rest of the former Soviet Empire?

What did they do that was worse than Russia? Vietnam? China? East Germany? Bulgaria?



Why are we still starving poor people except out of petty vindictiveness?


You have made a case for the sanctions.... right up until about the mid- or late-80s. Please explain the last 15 years with a compelling reason why Cubans still deserve this punishment.
Because the same guy is in power, that being Castro. Leonid Breznev isn't currently the president of Russia, now is he?

This communist nation, of course, wanted to eventually destroy the US.
waaa waaaa waaa, im afraid of communism and of a poor nation in the caribbean that is communist waaa waaa waa im in the bigest most powerful nation in the world and im afraid of little tiny poor countries who want to destroy us without weapons waaaa waaaa waaaa

cry me a river


It's a wet foot/dry foot policy, as the Coast Guard calls it. If Cubans are caught at sea, they are repatriated. If they make it to land undetected, then they are automatically granted asylum.
why dont wej ust ake all cuban refugees and put them on a gameshow called "Lets be american!" and we subject them to a variest of games and questions and whoever (and their family if they came with them) wins gets to stay and the rest are shipped back to cuba

This profitability encourages overproduction and ‘dumping’ on world markets – particularly by the European Union (EU). In 1999/2000 the EU imported 1.9 million tons of raw sugar, but exported 5.1 million tons." New Internationalist, Issue 363, FACTS SHEET http://www.newint.org/index4.html

In short it is the sheer number of countries producing sugar as compared to the amount of people actually consuming it that has forced down the prices...that and the ridiculous subsidies allowed by rich nations (U.S, Britain etc.) but absolutely forbidden to poorer countries. Castro didn't kill Cuba's sugar industry...the sugar industry is killing itself by overproducing and dumping.

I agreed with the info you've written. What subsidies are forbidden to poorer countries?

Haven't read any of the thread so it may have already been said:

Pro - Havana Club Rum :D

But they persist (they still have a rather large sugar industry) to use old equipment from half a century ago, literally. It guzzles oil down and probably costs more than its worth to the government. But Castro & Co. keeps it there. It provides jobs. And if anything's wrong, they just blame it on the Americans like a lot of people do anyway. Its painful to cut the 200,000 or however many people are still left in the sugar industry from their jobs. It should be done, though.

actually they get most of their oil on the cheap. 1/3 they get for more or less free. Think its from Venezuela. You know the guys who wants to continue the "Bolivian Revolution"

Because the same guy is in power, that being Castro. Leonid Breznev isn't currently the president of Russia, now is he?


No. The former head of the KGB is!


You know - the guy who ran actual ops against the US.....

:rolleyes:


So your logic is that the common people of Cuba should continue to be punished for the bad luck of being born under a communist dictator... as if that wasn't punishment enough ... meanwhile, all of the other ruthless pricks running the rest of the former Soviet Bloc countries get a free pass and aid?

Interesting.

It's counterproductive because Cuba has something the U.S always wants...a market for its goods. Agricultural goods (foodstuffs) are in great demand in Cuba, especially after hurricanes and assorted bad weather. Cuba needs pharmaceutical supplies, and wants a million other products the U.S should only be too happy to provide. I'm actually suprised that greed hasn't overcome the need to punish Castro.



I've already said why I think the sanctions MIGHT continue...why do you think they wouldn't?

psychology. Look what the Cuban missile crisis caused in the US. Until that point they felt more or less unreachable by the rest of the world. Then there are nukes a few miles a away

Let's just agree that the U.S has this unreasoning fear of communism...but if that is so, why are you trading with THE PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA!!!???? Yes, they are incorporating capitalist practices, but they are still communist, and a heck of a lot more powerful than Cuba! Your argument seems outdated, as lifting sanctions would not likely mean a rush to go be communist...more like elected socialists (which is becoming more prevalent DESPITE the blockade, Brazil, Venezuala...gasp...SPAIN!)...you support Canada, and we have socialist tendencies....should we expect sanctions once you realise you've overlooked the "commie" threat to the north?

was the mentality of THEM and US. If you were with THEM, you the ennemy. Unfortunately Castro was with THEM

the embargo of cuba makes NO sense
therefore it will continue indefinitely

i had hoped that clinton would do something about it in his second term but i guess he was too busy handling other things

i plan to visit cuba as soon as it is legal for americans. the flowering of cuba will be amazing once everyone is free to do business there.

Let's just agree that the U.S has this unreasoning fear of communism...but if that is so, why are you trading with THE PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA!!!???? Yes, they are incorporating capitalist practices, but they are still communist, and a heck of a lot more powerful than Cuba!

Isn't it ridiculous how so many people completely oversee that little fact? :)

....the Cuban Healthcare myth is just that... a myth. Costa Rica, for example, has .4 years on average.......Cuba has better health care than Costa Rica....? :confused:

...Cuba has better health care than Costa Rica....? :confused:

They do. Suprisingly, they have one of the best AIDS medical research centres in the world.

My dad worked on AIDS research in SF. I think Cuba shouldn't have an embargo on it. But politicians are unwilling to lift the embargo because of the large anti-Castro expatriate-Cuban community in Florida. And while Castro isn't a great guy he's way better than all the dictators we've done NOTHING about. Plus Cuban food is awesome. So is Cuban music. And I think another thing about Castro, while he is corrupt and has taken power, he does seem to genuinely care about the welfare of the Cuban people, which is more than I can say of our current president in the states.

...Cuba has better health care than Costa Rica....? :confused:
How come?....CostaRica is THE elite country in LatinAmerica....(spacially after the fall of Argentina)
How can the Cubans keep this up...after all this years of Embargoes

How can the Cubans keep this up...after all this years of Embargoes

It's called "socialism". Tends to make for a good healthcare and education system :D

Pro: Cubans have a literacy rate of 97%.
Con: But in Cuba you had better watch what you write. You could be arrested if it doesn't fit with the official line.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/cu.html#People

Pro: Cuba's economy has recovered somewhat after taking repeated hits. The USA stopped all trade in 1961 and in 1990 the USSR collapsed.
Con: Standard of living remains at a lower level than before the depression of the 1990s, which was caused by the loss of Soviet aid and domestic inefficiencies.

Pro: Long life expectancy, indicating a good healthcare system for all:
total population: 77.04 years
male: 74.77 years
female: 79.44 years (2004 est.)
Con: Don't expect to live long if you plan of rebelling against the one-party government. Torture and execution are used.

Pro: Cubans have a literacy rate of 97%.
Con: But in Cuba you had better watch what you write. You could be arrested if it doesn't fit with the official line.

In the USA, if what you write doesn't fit with the official line, you are unamerican, or a pinko commie, yes?

Pro: Cuba's economy has recovered somewhat after taking repeated hits. The USA stopped all trade in 1961 and in 1990 the USSR collapsed.
Con: Standard of living remains at a lower level than before the depression of the 1990s, which was caused by the loss of Soviet aid and domestic inefficiencies.

Hey, the Russians have it worse off economically than they did in the USSR too. And they have capitalism now.

Pro: Long life expectancy, indicating a good healthcare system for all:
total population: 77.04 years
male: 74.77 years
female: 79.44 years (2004 est.)
Con: Don't expect to live long if you plan of rebelling against the one-party government. Torture and execution are used.

Torture and execution you say? Well, I seem to recall certain instances of abuse towards prisoners of war and capital punishment in their northern neighbour.

I agreed with the info you've written. What subsidies are forbidden to poorer countries?

The IMF and the International Bank for Reconstruction and Development (World Bank) loan money to countries (at an usurous interest rate) on the condition that they follow certain Structural Adjustment Programs (SAPs). The basics of SAPs:

1. Downsize and economize: public sector layoffs, less labour unions
2. Outsource and asset strip: privatize all money losing gov't owned industry
3. Cut social spending

4. Deregulate: seeing gov't regulation as a barrier to growth, gov'ts are "encouraged" to lower or get rid of tarrifs on international imports, and above all, NOT provide subsidies to domestic industries that would be considered "unfair" to foreign investors and businesses.

As well, trade agreements like NAFTA mean that coporations can sue a gov't if they feel like they aren't getting a fair shake...for example, Canada subsidizes the softwood lumber trade, and that caused a huge kerfuffle, yet the U.S subidizes many of its own industries, as do many European nations.

How come?....CostaRica is THE elite country in LatinAmerica....(spacially after the fall of Argentina)
How can the Cubans keep this up...after all this years of Embargoes

It is part of why Castro still has some support from so many of his people. He devotes more per capita as a percent of GDP on medical care than any other central american country. He has provided free education, and has more doctors per capita than many Western countries. When US embargos made it impossible to get HIV medication, what little he could get he had reverse-engineered and produces it domestically. Hell, he recognized AIDS would be a huge problem and made it a serious issue in Cuba before most western countries did, and before he even had a single case of Aids to worry about!


He may be a commie, but he is of the ideology that truly wanted it for the benefit of his people - well and of course for his own power - I'm not making him out to be a saint or anything. He's been a ruthless prick to support his position too. But, unlike most of the dictators - it has never seemed that he was doing things for great personal enrichment. He is not financialy corrupt in the same way as most are.

He's been a ruthless prick to support his position too. But, unlike most of the dictators - it has never seemed that he was doing things for great personal enrichment. He is not financialy corrupt in the same way as most are.

No doubt...he still wears his damn uniform all the time...have you EVER seen Castro in Gucci? Or driving around in a Mercedes? Or living it up in Monaco? The man is a machine...an old hardliner who has, however right or wrongheadedly tried to improve his country according to his own vision, and has worked like a dog for most of his life. You can at least admire that he has not given into corruption. I very much doubt you'll see Castro's family fly off to some other country with millions of stolen Cuban dollars stashed away in their suitcases like so many other dictators and their families have done.

Torture and execution you say? Well, I seem to recall certain instances of abuse towards prisoners of war and capital punishment in their northern neighbour.
Which is exactly why you should ignore Castro doing these things! Wait a minute....

The only place where you can get a No2 Montecristo Cigar...so thick and tasty...The cigar should be an obligatory weapon in any world leader's arsenal

Which is exactly why you should ignore Castro doing these things! Wait a minute....

Executions? Yes, they've recently been reinstated, though it is doubtful they will ever get up to the amount of death penalty executions the U.S has had...and before you say it, many of those U.S executions are just as fallacious as any Cuban one. Torture? Now THAT I would like some proof on. What kinds of torture does the Cuban government practice, because I've yet to see an Amnesty International report on it, and they're pretty up on things...like the abuses of Iraqi prisoners by U.S soldiers, the abuses of suspects by law enforcement in the U.S and so on. So, back up that claim, or don't make it.

The only place where you can get a No2 Montecristo Cigar...so thick and tasty...The cigar should be an obligatory weapon in any world leader's arsenal

Actually, what you should have written was:

"America. The only place where you can't get a No2 Montecristo Cigar.... "

I just have to walk up the road a block to get them.... :D

Well I didn't claim that the Castro regime engaged in torture. Its pretty silly to compare US death penalty numbers to Cuban ones, though, given the huge size difference (and one should also look at the reasons for execution). As I said I didn't make the claim that Castro is involved in torture, however, I do know that he did help the North Vietnamese engage in it during the Vietnam War (admittedly a long time ago).
http://www.cubacenter.org/media/recent_briefs/threet.php3
The Mechanics of Torture

“...[T]he Zoo, where mass torture was a routine practice. For a time, the camp personnel at the Zoo included an English-speaking Cuban, called ‘Fidel’ by the POW’s, who delighted in breaking Americans, even when the task required him to torture his victims to death.”
Sen. John McCain
Faith of My Fathers:
Random House, 1999

Fidel Castro is no stranger to the practice of torture, and the exploits of Cuban torture specialists in the Vietnam War is well-documented. In Honor Bound: American Prisoners of War in Southeast Asia 1961-73, authors Stuart Rochester and Frederick Kiley tell of the torture inflicted upon American POWs during the Vietnam War by Cuban officials. According to the work, published by the Naval Institute Press, a number of American POWs stationed at the Cu Loc complex (also known as ‘The Zoo’) southeast of Hanoi, “became the subjects of an unusually intensive and prolonged operation that monopolized the camp’s torture apparatus for much of the year and that came to be know among the prisoners as the ‘Cuba program.’”

A number of foreign officers, identified by their captives as Cubans due to their appearance and repeated references to the island, tortured the already suffering American prisoners relentlessly. One, nicknamed “Fidel” by the prisoners, “took to kicking the prisoners with his paratrooper boots, introduced the fan belt to the repertoire ... [and] used the water torture, gagging their mouths and pouring water into their nostrils.” According to one POW, Air Force Maj. Jack Bomar, Fidel “inflicted unbelievable pain and damage to us. ... In a torture session of unspeakable horror, [Air Force Captain Earl Cobeil] was trussed in ropes overnight and mauled for 24 hours straight for declining to bow. ... A couple of days later, [POWs] Daughtrey and Bomar overheard the sickening sounds of a terrible beating nearby. An enraged Fidel emerged from the commotion, spotted the POWs, and shouted ‘We’ve got a [expletive deleted] who’s faking! ... I’m gonna break this guy in a million pieces.” Cobeil was led back to his cell, “bleeding everywhere, terribly swollen, and a dirty, yellowish black from head to toe.” This kind of treatment was often inflicted on top of keeping a number of prisoners locked in leg irons, an unbearable action considering the heat sores and boils suffered by so many of the prisoners at the Zoo.

The subjects of the Zoo population approached 200 by the fall of 1968, and Intelligence sources counted more than 2,000 Cubans serving in various capacities in the North during that period. One American POW identified one of his key tormentors as Cuban Gen. Fernando Vecino Alegret, now Castro’s minister of higher education, who plays an important role in the ongoing academic exchanges between American and Cuban universities. The Castro government denies the eyewitness charges.

Well I didn't claim that the Castro regime engaged in torture. Its pretty silly to compare US death penalty numbers to Cuban ones, though, given the huge size difference (and one should also look at the reasons for execution). As I said I didn't make the claim that Castro is involved in torture, however, I do know that he did help the North Vietnamese engage in it during the Vietnam War (admittedly a long time ago).
http://www.cubacenter.org/media/recent_briefs/threet.php3

Sorry...that should have been towards Siljhouettes:

Don't expect to live long if you plan of rebelling against the one-party government. Torture and execution are used.

No offence Kwangistar if I am somewhat skeptical of information posted on the Center for a Free Cuba website, as it is extremely biased. If it is in fact the case that Cubans engaged in torture in Vietnam, I am certainly not going to excuse it. I will however point out once again that the U.S School of the Americas taught people how to torture prisoners, and often English speaking (possibly CIA) men oversaw torture in Chile, Argentina and elsewhere. Who knows what positions those men now hold in office? Does it excuse Cubans alleged behaviour in Vietnam? No, but it does show that the U.S also has much to answer for, and can not judge Cuba for crimes it has also committed.

No, but it does show that the U.S also has much to answer for, and can not judge Cuba for crimes it has also committed.
So a smoker can't tell people that smoking is bad? Hypocritical, yes, any less wrong, no.

So a smoker can't tell people that smoking is bad? Hypocritical, yes, any less wrong, no.

A torturer saying that torture is bad is a little different than smoking:). I get your point, and I am not a relativist who thinks that certain things we consider atrocities are ok taken in context of the culture. I believe that torture, the death penalty, female genital mutilation, child prostitution etc are wrong, no matter how much they may be sanctioned by a particular culture.

What I want to make clear, however, is that Cuba is constantly slandered with allegations of torture, disappearances and extrajudicial killings, despite their being no proof to back up these claims. It helps justify an unjustifiable position. When a country like the U.S takes the high moral ground, after having been involved in so many atrocities around the world (and at home), it sickens me. A smoker who knows himself that he is doing his body harm with smoking, and tries to warn another from following in his misguided footsteps will get more respect from me than a nation that can not even openly admit the wrongs they have committed and begin to make ammends. When the U.S finally does that, perhaps it can start trying to steer other nations away from making the same mistakes.

Where do you guys get the idea that Cuban people support Castro? Just because there isn’t an uprising doesn’t mean people support him. Everyone is afraid of each other. You know what Fidel does? He moves people around the island. For example he's bringing people from other parts of the island into Havana and gives them jobs as cops. The Habaneros call them “palestinos” (Palestinians) and he does the same thing to people in Havana. He sends them to work somewhere else. He does this so that people don't get to know each other. He knows that if there’s an uprising you aren’t going to kill the people you've known all your life but you might kill someone you've known only 2 or 3 years.

Another thing I don't like is how you guys praise Cuba’s “free” healthcare system. If it were a perfect healthcare system I would at least give you that but people have to take their own bed sheets and pillows to the hospital. They have no medicine. Most people get their medication from family in Miami. It’s not worth living under an oppressive regime just to have a doctor look at me, tell me what my illness is and then send me home because he can't help me. Another thing is literacy. What good is it for me to know how to read and write if I have to live like any other peasant in Latin America and I can’t freely express myself?

People in Cuba are nothing more than slaves. The government says “You work for me and I feed you and keep you alive.” Students are forced to work in the fields to get their so called "free education". People are forced to wake up at 3:00 am to get on the back of a truck and be driven to Havana to go to pro Castro marches in order to keep their miserable jobs. The jobs don't pay much but at least they help buy a bar of soap or a pound of rice! Here are a few pics of how the government takes people home after being forced to protest in Havana. Sorry for the poor quality but these are actually screen shots from video I took on my trip to Cuba last May.

http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/121/121680/folders/72763/1057928Cnv0048.JPG
http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/121/121680/folders/72763/1057929Cnv0049.JPG
http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/121/121680/folders/72763/1057930Cnv0050.JPG

These are just a few screen caps because it takes too long to upload the video from my camera. That part of the video is about 5 minutes long and its trucks and busses one after another! Did you guys know about this or did CNN forget to mention it? Or if you went to Cuba did the tourism agency forget to give you this part of the tour. There’s nothings like a tour of Cuba given by your own family who doesn't lie or try to hide the truth.

If you guys want to blame all of Cuba’s problem on the embargo then there’s an easy solution. All Castro has to do is hold free elections with international observers and release all political prisoners and the embargo is off. That’s what every president says every time they come to Miami looking for the Cuban vote. Why doesn’t Castro hold free elections if people love him so much? Pride??? What is worth more to him, his pride or the well being of his people?

Some of you said that Castro isn’t like other dictators. It’s obvious you’ve never seen the video that Castro’s ex daughter in law sneaked out of Cuba. It’s a video of Castro and his family comfortably in their home with $3,000 bottles of wine sitting on the dining room table while people in Cuba don’t even have water to drink! She also denounced how Castro’s own son (her husband) sells U.S. visas to people in Cuba! Yup you read that right! You can say maybe she’s just hurt and is making things up but she had to get the idea from somewhere. There has to be some truth to it. Not only that but it’s reported that the Castro family has millions of dollars in Swiss bank accounts and the Cuban government was just recently caught laundering money. They say the dollars come from tourism but others say it’s from drug trafficking. The list goes on and on.

Another thing Castro is famous for is stopping racism in Cuba. Well, can someone explain to me why 90% of people that work in the Hotels in Varadero are white when Cuba’s population is 60 to 70 percent black? The only black people I saw in the hotel were the cook, the cleaning lady and the security guards. Nobody that had personal contact with me was black. The security guards are probably all black because they know people are more afraid of a 6 foot tall black guy than your average Joe.

Oh, before I forget. Cubans aren’t allowed into the hotels passed the lobby! You can pay 5 dollars a day per person to have your family sit with you by the pool but they can’t go into the hotel room and you certainly can’t rent them their own room. Now I ask all you good hearted socialist and communists. Do you think this is fair?

Where do you guys get the idea ...
La Yuma, meet Mr. Paragraph.

Mr. Paragraph, this is La Yuma. I think you two should become friends.

Edit: thanks for fixing this. I can now read it.

I see you are going to criticize the way I write instead of what I have to say. That says a lot. ;)

Edited to add: Well thanks for bringing it up. I just though you were trying to be a smart a$s and that is why I answered like that.

Ya know, im thinkin if Cuba really wasnt that bad, then why do all the people really want to go to Florida so bad they swim there. Or go in leaky boats. Or convert a pickup truck into a boat so they can get to florida.

No. The former head of the KGB is!


You know - the guy who ran actual ops against the US.....

:rolleyes:


So your logic is that the common people of Cuba should continue to be punished for the bad luck of being born under a communist dictator... as if that wasn't punishment enough ... meanwhile, all of the other ruthless pricks running the rest of the former Soviet Bloc countries get a free pass and aid?

Interesting.
Putin has since recanted his position, as have most former communists in Eastern and Central Europe. I can't say that about Castro.

Putin has since recanted his position, as have most former communists in Eastern and Central Europe. I can't say that about Castro.

So, you're saying that "being a communist" by definition is reason enough to deny basic neccessities to the people under him, even knowing full well that the sanctions will do nothing else?

I mean, it's been 40 years of sanctions. Clearly this will not force him to change his political ideology. Right? What, you think he will suddenly recant now? Do the sanctions really harm him at all? Only if he had designs to be able to travel to Miami. Frankly it seems like that isn't an issue to him. So you are NOT punishing him. If anything, I think he delights at being the thorn in your side and you just give him ammo.

So in the end all you are doing is punishing the citizens for the missfortune of being born under him.

Correct me where I am wrong on that.

And tell me how you justify to yourself knowing that you are helping to starving people already living under a dictator for no other reason than the fact that they were born under a dictator.

So, you're saying that "being a communist" by definition is reason enough to deny basic neccessities to the people under him, even knowing full well that the sanctions will do nothing else?

I mean, it's been 40 years of sanctions. Clearly this will not force him to change his political ideology. Right? What, you think he will suddenly recant now? Do the sanctions really harm him at all? Only if he had designs to be able to travel to Miami. Frankly it seems like that isn't an issue to him. So you are NOT punishing him. If anything, I think he delights at being the thorn in your side and you just give him ammo.

So in the end all you are doing is punishing the citizens for the missfortune of being born under him.

Correct me where I am wrong on that.

And tell me how you justify to yourself knowing that you are helping to starving people already living under a dictator for no other reason than the fact that they were born under a dictator.
Well, no one in Cuba is being punished because every other nation on the planet trades with him. Our efforts are futile. However, we are to make sure that we can do our part to compel Cubans to leave, and that they have been doing. It won't make Castro change his mind, but it will show Cubans that the US thinks Castro is unacceptable.

It won't make Castro change his mind, but it will show Cubans that the US thinks Castro is unacceptable.
Forty years was punishment enough for Moses. What number would the USA consider reasonable?

I would encourage any and all pro-Castro individuals to check out the following:

1.Against All Hope by Armando Valladares (who spent 22 years :eek: rotting in Cuba's hellish gulag)

2.In the Lion’s Den by Nina Shea

3.The Child in Communist Cuba (CANF study)

4.Cuba: Mito y Realidad

5.The Black Book of Communism by Pascal Fontaine

6.Blessed by Thunder by Flor Fernandez Barrios (another person who has witnessed communist Cuba's bestialty firsthand)

Where do you guys get the idea that Cuban people support Castro? Just because there isn’t an uprising doesn’t mean people support him. Everyone is afraid of each other. You know what Fidel does? He moves people around the island. For example he's bringing people from other parts of the island into Havana and gives them jobs as cops. The Habaneros call them “palestinos” (Palestinians) and he does the same thing to people in Havana. He sends them to work somewhere else. He does this so that people don't get to know each other. He knows that if there’s an uprising you aren’t going to kill the people you've known all your life but you might kill someone you've known only 2 or 3 years.

And where do you get the idea that everybody opposes him? Of course there will be people who support, and people who oppose, but don't try saying that everyone is against him. As for preparing for an uprising (when there hasn't been one) is what any regime democratic or otherwise does...have you forgotten the riot police in Seattle and Washington?


Another thing I don't like is how you guys praise Cuba’s “free” healthcare system. If it were a perfect healthcare system I would at least give you that but people have to take their own bed sheets and pillows to the hospital. They have no medicine. Most people get their medication from family in Miami. It’s not worth living under an oppressive regime just to have a doctor look at me, tell me what my illness is and then send me home because he can't help me.

It has to be a PERFECT healthcare system before you will give it any justice? There is no such thing, not in any country, and certainly not in the U.S, where many people have no coverage at all. Of course they have little medicine or expensive machinery... many pharmaceutical companies are U.S companies, and refuse to let medicines get there. You would prefer to live in the U.S, not have coverage and be sent away before even seeing a doctor because they refuse to pay the insurance?? If their health system is so bad, why do so many countries ask Cuba to send doctors to help train theirs?

Another thing is literacy. What good is it for me to know how to read and write if I have to live like any other peasant in Latin America and I can’t freely express myself?

Oh...so you think that Cubans should be living better than "any other peasant in Latin America", and if they don't that automatically proves the Cuban system wrong? You would prefer to live in Haiti? If Castro wanted to keep his people REALLY under his thumb, he wouldn't be paying them through University where people start getting all sorts of crazy ideas.

People in Cuba are nothing more than slaves. The government says “You work for me and I feed you and keep you alive.”

And in a neo-liberal economy, the government says, "You work for me, and I don't care if you can't afford to eat, and you better have money saved for your coffin".

As for you being shown around by your family who doesn't lie or try to hide things... well they have their opinions. I can go to Chile with my husband and be shown around by pro-Pinochet people who cheerfully tell me they wish more lefties had been killed because the government seems to be leaning towards Socialism again, and that they love Pinochet because he "saved them from communism".

Sorry, I'm skipping here over some of your argument...I'm kind of in a hurry...I'll come back to the free election thing later.

Some of you said that Castro isn’t like other dictators. It’s obvious you’ve never seen the video that Castro’s ex daughter in law sneaked out of Cuba. It’s a video of Castro and his family comfortably in their home with $3,000 bottles of wine sitting on the dining room table while people in Cuba don’t even have water to drink! She also denounced how Castro’s own son (her husband) sells U.S. visas to people in Cuba! Yup you read that right! You can say maybe she’s just hurt and is making things up but she had to get the idea from somewhere. There has to be some truth to it. Not only that but it’s reported that the Castro family has millions of dollars in Swiss bank accounts and the Cuban government was just recently caught laundering money. They say the dollars come from tourism but others say it’s from drug trafficking. The list goes on and on.

You should replace reported with RUMOURED. Anyway, in Canada, government officials fly around all over the place first class on our tax dollar, go to fancy parties, squander (steal) 1 billion dollars on the gun registry and get involved in shady business deals (sponsorship scandal). Heads of state EVERYWHERE get some luxuries...sounds like you wouldn't be happy unless he slept in an unfurnished stone room, wore rags and only ate bread and water. Caught laundering money by whom, and give some sources for your "information".

Another thing Castro is famous for is stopping racism in Cuba. Well, can someone explain to me why 90% of people that work in the Hotels in Varadero are white when Cuba’s population is 60 to 70 percent black? The only black people I saw in the hotel were the cook, the cleaning lady and the security guards. Nobody that had personal contact with me was black. The security guards are probably all black because they know people are more afraid of a 6 foot tall black guy than your average Joe.

Actually I'd never heard he stopped racism...but I'll agree with you on this one...black people aren't integrated all that well...but here's a news flash...racism is alive and well in the U.S too.

Forty years was punishment enough for Moses. What number would the USA consider reasonable?
We're striving for a lifetime acheivement award.

Castro's main crime in the eyes of Washington?

He humiliated them at the Bay of Pigs.

He humiliated them by removing a US puppet government.

And he pissed of US businesses for privatizing their subsidiaries there.

The missiles? Hey, that was a Russian installation. Attaching blame to him for that would be no different than the USSR still pretending to be pissed off at Germany for Nato's missiles there during the cold war. IT is nonsensical.

Castro has proven his ability to control his Island for decades, and to put in place the best damn health care system in Central America despite all of the economic pressures against him.


The only thing continued sanctions are doing is punishing the ordinary people for having the bad luck to be born under a dictator, and giving Canadians a cheap place to vacation.

The Bay of Pigs- A bunch of pissed off Cuban refugees who tried to take over Cuba after the US got them drunk and, well, pissed off.

Missile Crisis- Oh for gosh sakes, he was openly allied with the Russians, and GAVE them permission to place those missiles there.

Pissed off Businesses- You might mean he nationalised the businesses, and it would almost as if we froze Chinese or Japanese assets in the US. They would be pissed for a very good reason, since we just took everything they owned in our country and said "Hey, you did good here, now its ours."

Economy- Guess what, the only reason the economy has gotten any better at all is because Castro was forced to loosen his tight-fisted control of certain businesses. Imagine what they could do with a Democratic government and a laissez faire economy, especially with all those natural resources. Not to mention that the per capita income is $2,800. Yea, he is doing great for their economy.

US Puppet Government- At least they would have been able to have elections.

Yea, he can control his island. Key word being HIS friggin island, because he IS a dictator and he can't keep an economy going unless he gives up some power, which as a dictator he is loath to do.

We're striving for a lifetime acheivement award.
lol

In the USA, if what you write doesn't fit with the official line, you are unamerican, or a pinko commie, yes?

Hey, the Russians have it worse off economically than they did in the USSR too. And they have capitalism now.

Torture and execution you say? Well, I seem to recall certain instances of abuse towards prisoners of war and capital punishment in their northern neighbour.
I agree. Are these supposed to be arguments or additions?

I'm not holding Cuba up to America's increasingly pitiful standards of human rights and civil liberties. I'm holding them up to international standards.

I actually thought my post was quite balanced. Unlike most posters here who adopt positions of being 100% pro-Castro or 100% against him.

The Bay of Pigs- A bunch of pissed off Cuban refugees who tried to take over Cuba after the US got them drunk and, well, pissed off.


A bunch of pissed off Cubans armed, supported, and provided transport by the US goveernment.

Missile Crisis- Oh for gosh sakes, he was openly allied with the Russians, and GAVE them permission to place those missiles there.


The cold war is over. East and western countries in germany who equally GAVE permission to US and Russian missile instalations normalized relations ages ago. why hold this grudge still? That is the question.


Pissed off Businesses- You might mean he nationalised the businesses, and it would almost as if we froze Chinese or Japanese assets in the US. They would be pissed for a very good reason, since we just took everything they owned in our country and said "Hey, you did good here, now its ours."


Yep. I was just listing that as one of the reasons why he is still being punished. However it's not like loyalists weren't driven off of their lands and lose their businesses during your own revolution. If you think reparations should be made, you will of course be equally minded and cede large chunks of New England back to British and Canadian interests?

US Puppet Government- At least they would have been able to have elections.


Ummm, his revolution was in response to the US puppet government known as the Batista regime. Elections were not an issue then, just as they weren;t under a number of Central American republics, the Shah of Iran, etc. etc.

Perhaps if it hadn't been for your last puppet government there Castro would not have ever been an issue at all.


Economy- Guess what, the only reason the economy has gotten any better at all is because Castro was forced to loosen his tight-fisted control of certain businesses. Imagine what they could do with a Democratic government and a laissez faire economy, especially with all those natural resources. Not to mention that the per capita income is $2,800. Yea, he is doing great for their economy.


Yea, he can control his island. Key word being HIS friggin island, because he IS a dictator and he can't keep an economy going unless he gives up some power, which as a dictator he is loath to do.

I am not arguing that he is a nice guy. I am not arguing that things wouldn;t be better off under a free market.

All I am saying is that the Sanctions in 40 years have done nothing except punish the Cuban people for the missfortune of being born under a dictator. Beyond that they have had no effect at all.

In other words - it punishes the wrong people. In that respect, it is an act of cruelty,

Do you really think that it has punished Castro?

Well, no one in Cuba is being punished because every other nation on the planet trades with him. Our efforts are futile. However, we are to make sure that we can do our part to compel Cubans to leave, and that they have been doing. It won't make Castro change his mind, but it will show Cubans that the US thinks Castro is unacceptable.

That is not true at all. Some countries DO trade with him on a limited basis, but the various rules of the sanctions that punish companies for doing that - i.e. putting sanctions on THEM for this trade - make it unattractive for many.

Nor do I see where compelling Cubans to try dangerous sea crossings, and also putting in laws whereby you try and catch them and RETURN them to Cuba to face punishment for trying is anything but hypocricy.

So you think Castro is unacceptable. I think they get that. Way better than YOU do. What they don't get is any help to do away with him or make a better life for themselves.

Like I said: punishing the wrong people.

Yea, except that if the US actually DID help the Cuban people to get rid of Castro, then you and every other liberal in the country would scream because we went to war. So what is your point then?

That is not true at all. Some countries DO trade with him on a limited basis, but the various rules of the sanctions that punish companies for doing that - i.e. putting sanctions on THEM for this trade - make it unattractive for many.
Many countries do not have sanctions where a travel ban is in place. Cuba is a forbidden paradise. I'd love to go there, but I can't. I'm sure many on the planet want to go there, and they are. Tourist revenues are plenty to keep Cuba chugging along.[/quote]

Nor do I see where compelling Cubans to try dangerous sea crossings, and also putting in laws whereby you try and catch them and RETURN them to Cuba to face punishment for trying is anything but hypocricy.
I've never liked the wet foot/dry foot policy myself.

So you think Castro is unacceptable. I think they get that. Way better than YOU do. What they don't get is any help to do away with him or make a better life for themselves.
They will as soon as Castro steps down, and if a leader like Castro's son (or Guevara's son) gets into power. I'm surprised a hit team doesn't go to Havana and just end it.

Like I said: punishing the wrong people.[/QUOTE]

And where do you get the idea that everybody opposes him? Of course there will be people who support, and people who oppose, but don't try saying that everyone is against him. As for preparing for an uprising (when there hasn't been one) is what any regime democratic or otherwise does...have you forgotten the riot police in Seattle and Washington?

I seriously doubt Castro has many supporters. I would say maybe 30% of the people support him the rest are against. I talked with family, friends of my family and workers at the hotels and tourist areas. During my 10 day trip I only met 1 pro Castro person. He is my stepfather’s brother. He is a die hard communist yet he didn’t hesitate to take our evil dollars when we gave them to him. No one openly said they were against Castro but they let you know they don't approve of him with their comments. Nobody talks openly because they are all terrified of each other. I saw it with my own eyes. The only reason they talked to us was because we were family and friends. The people at the hotel started talking to us after a couple of days when they got to know us. Everyone starts talking but when they realize what they are saying they immediately lower their voice. Also you say there has never been an uprising in Cuba. Ever heard of the Maleconazo?

http://www.directorio.org/internal/internal.htm

1994 Demonstration at the "Malecón"
In an atmosphere of harsh repression and government negligence during an economic crisis, hundreds demonstrate in a spontaneous protest by the seawall and promenade in Havana known as the "Malecón." During this protest, popularly called the "maleconazo," the population voices its discontent, shouting for freedom.

It has to be a PERFECT healthcare system before you will give it any justice? There is no such thing, not in any country, and certainly not in the U.S, where many people have no coverage at all. Of course they have little medicine or expensive machinery... many pharmaceutical companies are U.S companies, and refuse to let medicines get there. You would prefer to live in the U.S, not have coverage and be sent away before even seeing a doctor because they refuse to pay the insurance?? If their health system is so bad, why do so many countries ask Cuba to send doctors to help train theirs?

Yes it has to be perfect if it’s going to cost me my freedom! Why do other countries ask Cuba for help? Because it doesn't cost them much and Cuba happily helps out because they want to export the “revolution” and they get a little economic help at the same time.

Oh...so you think that Cubans should be living better than "any other peasant in Latin America", and if they don't that automatically proves the Cuban system wrong? You would prefer to live in Haiti? If Castro wanted to keep his people REALLY under his thumb, he wouldn't be paying them through University where people start getting all sorts of crazy ideas.

Of course I wouldn't want to live in Haiti just like I wouldn't want to live in Cuba. He gives Cubans "free" education because he then sends them all around the world in exchange for some kind of aid to keep his regime alive. Look at what he's doing in Venezuela. He's sending doctors in exchange for oil! And if I'm not mistaken Cuba is the only country that has permission to re-sell that oil.

And in a neo-liberal economy, the government says, "You work for me, and I don't care if you can't afford to eat, and you better have money saved for your coffin".

As for you being shown around by your family who doesn't lie or try to hide things... well they have their opinions. I can go to Chile with my husband and be shown around by pro-Pinochet people who cheerfully tell me they wish more lefties had been killed because the government seems to be leaning towards Socialism again, and that they love Pinochet because he "saved them from communism".

Sorry, I'm skipping here over some of your argument...I'm kind of in a hurry...I'll come back to the free election thing later.

Of course, that’s my whole point. My family showed me the truth about Cuba not what some crazy fanatic wants me to see. Oh and please do come back to me on that "election thing".

You should replace reported with RUMOURED. Anyway, in Canada, government officials fly around all over the place first class on our tax dollar, go to fancy parties, squander (steal) 1 billion dollars on the gun registry and get involved in shady business deals (sponsorship scandal). Heads of state EVERYWHERE get some luxuries...sounds like you wouldn't be happy unless he slept in an unfurnished stone room, wore rags and only ate bread and water. Caught laundering money by whom, and give some sources for your "information".

Yes you are right about politicians but if Castro wants to create a communist utopia where everyone is equal he should start by setting an example. Here is the source you asked for.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20040723-012324-9922r.htm

I actually read it in the Miami Herald but I couldn't find the article so I googled it and found this one.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20040723-012324-9922r.htm

Ok...to the article first...sounds like this woman is on a mission, but without much to back her up:

"She received information from the Federal Reserve Bank in New York that showed the exchanges over an eight-year period. They also tend to show that the money came from tourism."

"I am greatly concerned at how $4 billion was allowed to enter the circulation of Castro's communist system," she said. "Castro continues to discover means of circumventing our nation's efforts to confront his terrorist regime, and thereby continues to prevent the democracy and freedom the Cuban people deserve."

So she is upset so much money is getting in despite the blockade. She has no proof it is from drug money, even the Federal Reserves is saying it probably isn't, and this is all ALLEGED, not PROVEN. Sounds like the UBS is up to some shady dealing though.

Now I'll get back to you about the free elections:). Yes, I think he should have them. Absolutely, and there should be international agencies EVERYWHERE to assure it is a fair vote, uncoerced by Castro supporters, and uncoerced by anti-Castro agents. Hopefully the U.S has gotten over it's desire to install puppet dictators (though I am doubtful), and will let Cuba choose it's own government as well, whether they choose Castro or not. Will it happen? Probably not until he dies...he's a hardliner, and his is a country under siege economically. I DO think people support him, but a lot support him because they hate the U.S for the embargoes. If those stopped, I doubt he would have as much support, but who knows, because the embargoes won't end either until Castro dies.

My total position on Castro is that he has done fairly well for Cuba compared to other Latin American countries (or compared even only to Carribean nations), and that a centrally planned (communist) system is no more inherently evil than a democratic, liberal one. Abuses in both system occur, but the citizens should not be further penalized by punishing sanctions. The U.S has been extremely hostile towards Cuba...more so than towards almost any other nation (in the long run, though in the short, I'd say Iraq has been beat up more), and the only reason Cuba isn't the 51st state is because Castro didn't back down. I hope in a few more years, the U.S will chill out, Cuba will open up, and those two countries can go on to heal a rift that has been kept open for WAY too long.

Yes, I think he should have them. Absolutely, and there should be international agencies EVERYWHERE to assure it is a fair vote, uncoerced by Castro supporters, and uncoerced by anti-Castro agents. Hopefully the U.S has gotten over it's desire to install puppet dictators (though I am doubtful), and will let Cuba choose it's own government as well, whether they choose Castro or not. Will it happen? Probably not until he dies...he's a hardliner, and his is a country under siege economically. I DO think people support him, but a lot support him because they hate the U.S for the embargoes. If those stopped, I doubt he would have as much support, but who knows, because the embargoes won't end either until Castro dies.

Good, something we agree on.


My total position on Castro is that he has done fairly well for Cuba compared to other Latin American countries (or compared even only to Carribean nations), and that a centrally planned (communist) system is no more inherently evil than a democratic, liberal one. Abuses in both system occur,

Castro isn't any better than any other dictator. He may not have killed as many people (although some would debate that) but he is still a murderer and Cuba would be better off without him. I know abuse occurs in all systems but people should be able to choose what kind of system they want. If the Cuban people want a communist system then so be it. The problem is nobody knows what the Cuban people really want because they aren't allowed to freely express themselves.

but the citizens should not be further penalized by punishing sanctions. The U.S has been extremely hostile towards Cuba...more so than towards almost any other nation (in the long run, though in the short, I'd say Iraq has been beat up more)

The embargo has accomplished nothing and in my opinion it has actually helped Castro by giving him an excuse for all of his failures. I personally think the problem is Castro and his communist system but for the arguments sake lets just say that the problem really is the embargo. By getting rid of it we would allow the Cuban people to live more comfortable lives. Either way it would be a win win situation for the people of Cuba who are the ones that really suffer.

and the only reason Cuba isn't the 51st state is because Castro didn't back down. I hope in a few more years, the U.S will chill out, Cuba will open up, and those two countries can go on to heal a rift that has been kept open for WAY too long.

Let’s hope it’s only a few more years. It doesn't look like Castro will be around for long and hopefully there will be a peaceful transition so that a more moderate leader can emerge. ;)

I'm not holding Cuba up to America's increasingly pitiful standards of human rights and civil liberties. I'm holding them up to international standards.


That makes it OK then :)

I'm not 100% for Castro either- I think he should allow democracy. Democracy and socialism are possible...

Then again, I can also adknowledge that they're better than most.

Actually, what you should have written was:

"America. The only place where you can't get a No2 Montecristo Cigar.... "

I just have to walk up the road a block to get them.... :D

Cubans are good, but so are alot of other countries cigars. For instance:
Hoya De Monterrey-Honduras, Mike Ditka Double Corona-Nicaraguan and Dominican, Macanudo Vintage 97 #1. These are but a few of my favorites. Montecristos' are sweet and nice and I've smoked Cuban and Dominican ones and I can't tell the difference at all.

Cubans are good, but so are alot of other countries cigars. For instance:
Hoya De Monterrey-Honduras, Mike Ditka Double Corona-Nicaraguan and Dominican, Macanudo Vintage 97 #1. These are but a few of my favorites. Montecristos' are sweet and nice and I've smoked Cuban and Dominican ones and I can't tell the difference at all.

I have to argue that Cuba's best export is its music...namely Silvio Rodriguez:)