NationStates Jolt Archive

I see people taking sides in this but don't see much moderation. The way I see it, Abraham booted Ishamael(sp?) out at an early age and said Isaac(wow, I'm forgetting names today. he's the one, right) got the land himself. Well I think that whole inheritance idea is some major BS. Along the lines of my thinking, they were both born in the same place so they have equal ownership. *********Now lets move to somewhat modern times. The British had some fun expanding into the middle east for someodd years until the Arab princes revolted. The British still had hold of Israel until the late 1940's(again, not sure about date. too lazy for research right now). This was due to the fact that the Jews displaced from the Holocaust decided they wanted the land and resorted to terrorist tactics. As far as I know, they tried to only hit military targets. I could be wrong. Either way, terrorism isn't cool. British pulled out and gave Israel to the Jews. Alright, whatever. The only problem is that there were Muslims living in the area too.********* Due to a completely pointless, ancient grudge, they wanted that land for themselves. At this point, both sides are really ignorant and generally stupid. The former owners, the British, gave the land to the Jews. Fine, but since the Muslims already had Muslim countries to live in, why couldn't the Jews have this little one? I'm not saying the Muslims should have been moved. Unfortunately, the Muslim countries did something stupid and invaded, getting their arses kicked. This didn't make things any better. Terrorism became the new theme of the Palistinian crusade to get this land for themselves. Ever since, through some more invasions and whatnot, Israel has stayed in the same hands with atrocities on both sides. My sister recently went and was totally PO'd at both sides at what was happening. At the Palestinians for the terrorism and at the Israelis for the general bad treatment of the Palastinians. What I want to know is why there can't be an Arab/Israeli government owning Israel rather than two seperate states. The mindset now is that one group or the other has to have control. I don't know what the opinion of Democracy is there but with an integrated government, Israel could be a kick arse country. I see a problem there because most Palistinians can't be Israeli citizens and the Palistinians don't want to be Israeli citizens. They want to be Palistinian citizens.

A way to solve this would be to drop the stupid grudge and give the Palestinians citizenship into Israel with full rights. By democratic elections without petty religious squabbles, both sides could live together as one.

There is a problem. This stupid hatred will cloud the minds of many. I could see an act of giving Palestinians citizenship turning into the newly made voters trying to turn it into an Islamic state. If the positions were reversed, I could see the Israelis trying to do the same thing.

Any ideas, comments, corrections, flames?

Areas within the ********, discredit. I was being stupid and ignorant as stated in below posts.

A little short on time to correct all your history misunderstandings, but here are some fairly unbiased sites to look over:
quick and simple (http://www.guardian.co.uk/flash/0,5860,720353,00.html)
Very good, in depth, unbiased (http://www.lonelyplanet.com/destinations/middle_east/israel_and_the_palestinian_territories/history.htm)

Oh, and I'm sure there will be objections from all sorts of people to those. :roll:

Err. No. Wrong. Dead Wrong. Completely missing the main issues of the conflict and with no historical accuracy whatsoever.

Let's start with the Brits. During their expansion phase they acquired control over large areas of the Middle East. In the First World War the British promised independance to the Arabic clans nations they controlled in exchange for attacks on the Germans. Unfortunately, at the same time a British foreign minister promised Palestine to the Jews. At the end of the war Britain held on to Palestine, but granted the other states independance.

During the period between wars Britain attempted to build a united Jewish and Arabic government as you described which could handle local issues. This attempt was hampered by terrorist attacks by Jewish fundamentalists who wanted an Israeli state only.

After the Second World War, there was a huge influx of Jewish immigrants, which certain western nations were happy to offer sympathy to, but would not invite inside their borders. These nations put pressure on Britain to hand the issue over to the United Nations. Britain was never involved in the creation of Israel, and abstained from the vote. The UN created two nations - Israel and Palestine. About half went to the Palestinian majority, and half to the Jewish Minority.

The neighbouring Arabic Nations (except Palestine) believed they had been double-crossed and promptly invaded Israel, which managed to beat them off with US support. Israel then annexed the state of Palestine and began a policy of ethinic cleansing against Palestinians inside Israel's borders. This involved destroying villages with dynamite, shooting Palestinian civilians, and imprisoning important figures in the Palestinian community.

The Palestinians fled to neighbouring Arabic nations, and began their own terrorist attacks against Israeli and Western targets (as they blamed the Western World for the creation of Israel in the first place).

With the history between the two, you'd have a better chance of getting the US to elect Osama Bin Laden as President than you would have getting a united Israeli/Palestinian government.

Let's start with the Brits. During their expansion phase they acquired control over large areas of the Middle East. In the First World War the British promised independance to the Arabic clans nations they controlled in exchange for attacks on the Germans. Unfortunately, at the same time a British foreign minister promised Palestine to the Jews. At the end of the war Britain held on to Palestine, but granted the other states independance.

Almost none of the states promised independence were given it, Iraq was effectively a puppet gov't in Britain's Sphere of Influence, and Palestine, Jordan, and Kuwait were all under Imperial control. Lebanon and Syria were French Mandates.

The neighbouring Arabic Nations (except Palestine) believed they had been double-crossed and promptly invaded Israel, which managed to beat them off with US support.

The US was never a supporter of Israel until the 70's, prior to that there main source of aid was France and Great Britain, and even before then (as in there war right after independence), nothing came in from any of these bigboys. They were using weapons manufactured in Czechoslovakia, not the United States, and the only French and British ones used were ones leftover from when the two withdrew.

A little known fact, there are Arabs elected to the Israeli Knesset. I'd have to look up the exact numbers.

Edit: Hmm, can't find a good source for current numbers. Oh well, most of the sites say anywhere from 10-20% (I believe there are 120 total). One mentioned that 2 of them were in Sharon's Likud party.

BTW: How do you pronounce Knesset?

Ok, so I'm an ignorant idiot who screwed up history in the above post. The question remains. WTF is wrong with these people? Read this link posted by Daistallia 2104 and you can read all about the petty squabbling that had no real point. http://www.lonelyplanet.com/destinations/middle_east/israel_and_the_palestinian_territories/history.htm

Anyway, it seems that there was the general hatred for a long time before Jews and Arabs began moving to the area. Britain was given control of the area and royally screwed up. They fled(I am correct in saying that it was due to terrorist attacks) and there was the odd political process of the UN that gave the area to the Jews and made it Israel. This was after various amounts of fighting.

Ok, I screwed up on most of the points about how things got there but the rest is true. Attacks by either side are pointless. Religion controlling both sides is absurd. I'm sorry to flame but people like Requel who say there is absolutely no hope for peave are the kinds of people who make it so. Although I totally screwed up historical facts, I mean this to be a constructive thread.

Two main points:

Now lets move to somewhat modern times. The British had some fun expanding into the middle east for someodd years until the Arab princes revolted. The British still had hold of Israel until the late 1940's(again, not sure about date. too lazy for research right now). This was due to the fact that the Jews displaced from the Holocaust decided they wanted the land and resorted to terrorist tactics. As far as I know, they tried to only hit military targets. I could be wrong. Either way, terrorism isn't cool. British pulled out and gave Israel to the Jews.

Your historical accuracy leaves much to be desired. There have been seven major Jewish immigrations to Israel (or, in Hebrew, "Aliya/Aliyot"). The first one was from 1882- 1903. The biggest Aliya was the Fifth one, which happened between 1932-1938, in which over 197,000 Jews came in. (To compare, the sixth and seventh Aliyot, who were either fleeing the Holocaust or were survivors, were only 127,000, combined.)

So, in fact, many of the Jews in Palestine had been there long before the Holocaust.

Also, you're wrong as far as saying, "Jews displaced from the Holocaust decided they wanted the land and resorted to terrorist tactics". First, as I've already demonstrated, Jews had been immigrating to Palestine over 60 years before the Holocaust occured. Second, most of the terrorist activities in fact occured before World War Two, starting in the late 20s and continuing through the 30s. Incidentally, this terrorism was started as responses to Arab terrorism against Jews, and then spread into offensive activity against both Arab and British targets. It should also be noted, as I wrote here (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=6813592&postcount=319) that these offenses were denounced by the official leadership of the Jewish community in Palestine.

Sources: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Immigration/immigtoc.html

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/brits.html (has links to things like the various militias I described)

What I want to know is why there can't be an Arab/Israeli government owning Israel rather than two seperate states. The mindset now is that one group or the other has to have control. I don't know what the opinion of Democracy is there but with an integrated government, Israel could be a kick arse country. I see a problem there because most Palistinians can't be Israeli citizens and the Palistinians don't want to be Israeli citizens. They want to be Palistinian citizens.

A way to solve this would be to drop the stupid grudge and give the Palestinians citizenship into Israel with full rights. By democratic elections without petty religious squabbles, both sides could live together as one.

There is a problem. This stupid hatred will cloud the minds of many. I could see an act of giving Palestinians citizenship turning into the newly made voters trying to turn it into an Islamic state. If the positions were reversed, I could see the Israelis trying to do the same thing.

What do you mean by "the same thing"? Israel is already a Jewish state. Isn't that basically "the same thing"?

In any event, you've basically identified the main reason a bi-national state is unacceptable to Jewish Israelis- they don't want to live under a Palestinian majority, not only because it would change the kind of country they live in, but also because many Palestinians have demonstrated hostility, even hatred, for Jews and Judaism.

Peaceful? Hardly. It would likely turn into another Lebanon.

A little known fact, there are Arabs elected to the Israeli Knesset. I'd have to look up the exact numbers.

Edit: Hmm, can't find a good source for current numbers. Oh well, most of the sites say anywhere from 10-20% (I believe there are 120 total). One mentioned that 2 of them were in Sharon's Likud party.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Politics/prelim2003.html

There are currently eight Arab MKs, at least by my count. I don't happen to know if there are Arab MKs in Likud or Labor.

BTW: How do you pronounce Knesset?

Like it's spelled. "K-nesset".

Come on QahJoh, you've been a voice of reason on these forums. I said that I was being an idiot while writing the first post. Discredit it. Large chunks are wrong. I've forgotten my history. Leave it be.

That aside, what good does it do for a government to "denounce" past actions. None really. I suppose it could be a form of apology but what's done is done.

To the other statement about "the same thing." If the positions of ownership were reversed and the Jews had a chance to gain some political power, they would want to gain power.

Yes, Palestinians have shown hatred to Jews and Judaism. I would too if I were in their place. Do you not feel anger toward the Palestinians for suicide bombings?

I ask all who read this. Why must these groups depend on a religious government? Why can't they work for the greater good? What in both of the religions keeps these two groups from working together for a greater good?

Both have hated each other for generations, but for what reason? I do not accept religion as an answer. That is ignorance. I understand the hatred due to the fighting. Why can people not forgive each other? Why are these groups so hell bent on destroying each other?

Come on QahJoh, you've been a voice of reason on these forums. I said that I was being an idiot while writing the first post. Discredit it. Large chunks are wrong. I've forgotten my history. Leave it be.

When I started writing that post, there were only four posts in this forum. You had not yet posted your second one.

That aside, what good does it do for a government to "denounce" past actions. None really. I suppose it could be a form of apology but what's done is done.

Well, first, the government was denouncing what OTHER PEOPLE were doing. Not quite the same thing as denouncing what YOU DID a while ago.

That said, often the first step towards reconciliation is admitting past wrongs were, in fact, wrong. See the Catholic Church and the Jews, Northern Ireland, South Africa, Germany and the Jews, etc...

Yes, Palestinians have shown hatred to Jews and Judaism. I would too if I were in their place. Do you not feel anger toward the Palestinians for suicide bombings?

Sure. I also feel anger when I see Israelis doing astoundingly stupid (and unjust) things. But I bet my anger and pity doesn't compare to the people actually living through it and losing friends and relatives.

That aside, you seem to be missing my point. I'm not talking about whether Palestinian hatred for Jews and Judaism is justified (BTW, it's not, in my opinion, since "Jews" and "Judaism" aren't the people or ideologies involved in the conflict, anymore than "Arabs" and "Muslims" are), but rather recognizing that this exists and applies to a fair chunk of Palestinian society, and would likely be a huge obstacle in creating any "bi-national state".

I ask all who read this. Why must these groups depend on a religious government?

Actually, Israel's present government is quite secular. What exactly are you talking about?

Why can't they work for the greater good?

Because they have different ideas for what constitutes "good". Many Israelis and Palestinians want a state of THEIR OWN. Not a bi-national country.

What in both of the religions keeps these two groups from working together for a greater good?

It's not a religious issue, per se. To my knowledge, Palestine isn't inherently holy in Islam. I'd say it's more of a nationalism and culture issue.

Both have hated each other for generations

Not exactly true- Jews and Muslims got along before Zionist immigration really started going.

but for what reason? I do not accept religion as an answer.

Religion is a peace of it, but really it's more about a general conflict of ethnocentric cultures. The Jews want a home, and so do the Palestinians.

Why can people not forgive each other? Why are these groups so hell bent on destroying each other?

Not all of them are. It is in THOSE people that any future hope lies.

Sorry; yeah, these things take a while to type. Ok, denouncing past acts is good. The forgiveness process thing. The reason I'm saying it's a religious issue is because the radicals on both sides are keen to praise their religion when defending their actions. Islamic militants are given many of the hateful ideas by their clerics. Israel seems to be referred to as a Jewish state, citing religion. Unless they're just stuck on the Jewish being a race thing. Have you ever heard of the "Birthright Israel" program? It brings Jewish teens to Israel and tries to convince them to stay. Religion is a big part of that. I suppose religion could be an excuse for political and cultural reasons but religion seems to be the most cited excuse for hostilities. Not to bash anyone by above statements, the truly religious clerics/people in general seem to be the ones who want peace. I guess I can't say that either since people interpret their religion differently from others. Argh. Anyway, why did the Palistinians/Israelis want the area to be their own? Religion. Lets say the issue isn't religion and is a cultural difference. What in those cultures says that they can't have a joint society?