NationStates Jolt Archive

A referendum asking the Venezualan people to shorten, or continue, the term of president Hugo Chavez has come back with a 58% vote to continue. Despite the fact that many (especially in the U.S) fear Chavez because they consider him a dangerous communist (á la Castro, a view I in no way agree with), he has nonetheless instituted social programs that actually help the 80% of the population who are poor. This obviously bothers the mostly white middle and upper class who control most of the businesses and media in the country, and will likely result in more attempts to oust him from power. However, the fact that this has not yet resulted in a civil war, or another successful CIA-backed coup, helps fuel the hope that Chavez will be given time to include the middle class in his plans to take back control of Venezualan industry (from foreign hands) and increase the standard of living for ALL citizens of Venezuala. ¡Felicitaciones Venezuala!

he has nonetheless instituted social programs that actually help the 80% of the population who are poor.
No, he's squandered money on handouts that will have no lasting effect while managing to totally destroy the economy.

The GDP is falling, inflation is skyrocketing, unemployment up, labor costs down, public debt up - just about everything that could be bad with the economy is.

No, he's squandered money on handouts that will have no lasting effect while managing to totally destroy the economy.

The GDP is falling, inflation is skyrocketing, unemployment up, labor costs down, public debt up - just about everything that could be bad with the economy is.

I knew someone would say this :) Before I reply to your statement, I would like to hear your views on how 80% of the population can be better hauled out of extreme poverty. I've read a lot of threads about people being against "hand-outs", but honestly I haven't seen a viable alternative. What would your economic model in Venezuala be? (there is no sarcasm intended or included at all in this post, so please feel free to wax eloquent:))

No, he's squandered money on handouts that will have no lasting effect while managing to totally destroy the economy.

The GDP is falling, inflation is skyrocketing, unemployment up, labor costs down, public debt up - just about everything that could be bad with the economy is.

I know what to do, sponsor a coup/invade. I am sure what they really need is a dose of Pinochet style medicine. That'll sort out those pesky poor people and get things back on track [/sarcasm].

Do you have anything to back up your claims of economic disaster, i havent heard anything along those lines.

I knew someone would say this :) Before I reply to your statement, I would like to hear your views on how 80% of the population can be better hauled out of extreme poverty. I've read a lot of threads about people being against "hand-outs", but honestly I haven't seen a viable alternative. What would your economic model in Venezuala be? (there is no sarcasm intended or included at all in this post, so please feel free to wax eloquent:))
Well, Venezuela needs to have stability first of all, which Chavez isn't doing by provoking strikes and moving towards autocracy. That's key. Oil is a limited resource and they only have so much of it. Hand-outs are a short term solution to a long-term problem. Infrastructure should be improved, and more market-friendly policies (you don't get businesses to come if you're trying to kill the ones you have) would help, too. Yeah, its nice to have socialism and help the poor. If there's not enough to distribute in the first place, you've got a problem.

I think if you are trying to lay balme for the strikes on Chavez you are more than a little misguided. I am pretty sure that if there wasnt an entrenched right wing elite sponsoring the protests they wouldnt have happened.

The scarcity of oil is obviously important so to me it makes sense that the State and through the State, the people of Venezuela get %30 of oil revenues rather than the %16 they used to receive because they need to make hay while the sun is shining.

Do you have anything to back up your claims of economic disaster, i havent heard anything along those lines.
Yes, from the Economist Intelligence Unit.
There's also a bunch of sites you can wade through in Spanish, if you read that.
http://www.economist.com/countries/Venezuela/profile.cfm?folder=Profile%2DEconomic%20Data
http://www1.lanic.utexas.edu/la/venezuela/#business(Tons of links)

First off, during the 00-03 (4 year) span, GDP per head has fallen from $5,948 to $5,100,

On average, GDP has had -3% growth (in real terms),

Inflation has on average been 20.5%,

Public Debt (Consolidated Government) has gone up 11.6%, a 42% increase in 4 years,

Labor costs have fallen 34% from $3.22 per hour to 2.11%, and

Unemployment has gone up 7.1% from 13.9% to 21%.

On average, GDP has had -3% growth (in real terms)...blah,blah,blah,numbers,blah blah,blah...
...blah,blah,blah,numbers,blah blah,blah...
...Unemployment has gone up 7.1% from 13.9% to 21%.
Maybe they need Bill Clinton...He fixed our economy...so...he can help Chavez too...

Yeah, its nice to have socialism and help the poor. If there's not enough to distribute in the first place, you've got a problem.

well, no matter how much wealth there is, it is being distributed somehow. if there isn't enough to go around, is it better to distribute it equitably or for nearly all of it to go to the tiny elite that already has far more than enough?

I think if you are trying to lay balme for the strikes on Chavez you are more than a little misguided.
Chavez himself disagrees :

Crisis in Chinese means danger and opportunity. Sometimes the crisis has to be generated, and kept measured, of course. What we did in PDVSA was necessary...and we generated the crisis. When I blew the referee's whistle in 'Alo Presidente' and started to fire people, I was provoking the crisis. When I named Gaston Parra President of PDVSA and the new board, we were provoking the crisis. They responded and the conflict appeared. And this is where we are today.
The original text : http://www.proveo.org/chavezdiscurso.pdf
http://caracaschronicles.blogspot.com/2004/02/chavez-is-open-book.html

well, no matter how much wealth there is, it is being distributed somehow. if there isn't enough to go around, is it better to distribute it equitably or for nearly all of it to go to the tiny elite that already has far more than enough?
Better to plan for the future and let the economy grow, which may in the short run mean the second option, but definately not the first.

Chavez may have provided motive for the opposition to strike but he did not lead the strikers so i dont see that argument as relevant. As for the economic figures, I am impressed with your research but i am still not convinced that they prove anything. After all, unemployment was high under Reagan too. Inflation is also very hard to control when the most impiortant economic factor, the price of oil, is determined offshore and fluctuates largely at the whim of a powerful neighbour.

... After all, unemployment was high under Reagan too. Inflation is also ....Like I said....Venezuela needs Bill clinton...

Like I said....Venezuela needs Bill clinton...
he might find it a bit too easy to get along with the women in Venezuela

Chavez is a role model for people power for the whole world

he might find it a bit too easy to get along with the women in Venezuela :fluffle: Bill is happy...they are happy...Economy is happy.

With Bill pumping thr Economy...They migth buy Costa Rica in a few years...

High under Reagan never approached averaging 20% a year in inflation (which was actually more of a problem under Carter, but even then it only peaked at about half of that). And unemployment under either and Bush Sr. never came close to above 20, I don't even know if it hit 10%.

High under Reagan never approached averaging 20% a year in inflation (which was actually more of a problem under Carter, but even then it only peaked at about half of that). And unemployment under either and Bush Sr. never came close to above 20, I don't even know if it hit 10%.So...they need Clinton even more....

I thought this thread was supposed to be about Venezuela?

I live in Miami, all the Venezuelans here refuse to believe that the results were not made up.

They all say that Venezuela is a mess because the cost of living is similar to the US but the wages aren't even close. They say there is no industry and Chavez is a dictator.

Most of the people saying this here don't appear to be rich at all, in fact they are all pretty poor, but maybe that's just by US standards.

I am not saying that I agree with them, just trying to offer another perspective.

I thought this thread was supposed to be about Venezuela?

I live in Miami, all the Venezuelans here refuse to believe that the results were not made up.

They all say that Venezuela is a mess because the cost of living is similar to the US but the wages aren't even close. They say there is no industry and Chavez is a dictator.

Most of the people saying this here don't appear to be rich at all, in fact they are all pretty poor, but maybe that's just by US standards.

I am not saying that I agree with them, just trying to offer another perspective.
if theyre living in miami then theyre prolly just brainwashed by foxnews hate TV like other non-thinking americans

MKULTRA, long time no see. Hows it going?

MKULTRA, long time no see. Hows it going?
its all good-im watching my uncles dog while hes away and he ate these choclates I left on the counter and he got diahrehia-Im pretty sure I got rid off all of it by sliding magazine covers underneth it but to be on the safe side I put a pair of my Uncles underwear on him just in case. I can always wash them before they get back tho