NationStates Jolt Archive


The Case against George W. Bush - By Ron Reagan

Social Progressionists
17-08-2004, 12:22
Be patient, it is a long read but quite fascinating. I was never fond of this guy's father finding him to be slightly patronising but this article is a well written and eloquent critique of the Bush administration.

The Case Against George W. Bush - by Ron Reagan


by Ron Reagan / Esquire

It may have been the guy in the hood teetering on the stool, electrodes clamped to his genitals. Or smirking Lynndie England and her leash. Maybe it was the smarmy memos tapped out by soft-fingered lawyers itching to justify such barbarism. The grudging, lunatic retreat of the neocons from their long-standing assertion that Saddam was in cahoots with Osama didn't hurt. Even the Enron audiotapes and their celebration of craven sociopathy likely played a part. As a result of all these displays and countless smaller ones, you could feel, a couple of months back, as summer spread across the country, the ground shifting beneath your feet. Not unlike that scene in The Day After Tomorrow, then in theaters, in which the giant ice shelf splits asunder, this was more a paradigm shift than anything strictly tectonic. No cataclysmic ice age, admittedly, yet something was in the air, and people were inhaling deeply. I began to get calls from friends whose parents had always voted Republican, "but not this time." There was the staid Zbigniew Brzezinski on the staid NewsHour with Jim Lehrer sneering at the "Orwellian language" flowing out of the Pentagon. Word spread through the usual channels that old hands from the days of Bush the Elder were quietly (but not too quietly) appalled by his son's misadventure in Iraq. Suddenly, everywhere you went, a surprising number of folks seemed to have had just about enough of what the Bush administration was dishing out. A fresh age appeared on the horizon, accompanied by the sound of scales falling from people's eyes. It felt something like a demonstration of that highest of American prerogatives and the most deeply cherished American freedom: dissent.

Oddly, even my father's funeral contributed. Throughout that long, stately, overtelevised week in early June, items would appear in the newspaper discussing the Republicans' eagerness to capitalize (subtly, tastefully) on the outpouring of affection for my father and turn it to Bush's advantage for the fall election. The familiar "Heir to Reagan" puffballs were reinflated and loosed over the proceedings like (subtle, tasteful) Mylar balloons. Predictably, this backfired. People were treated to a side-by-side comparison—Ronald W. Reagan versus George W. Bush—and it's no surprise who suffered for it. Misty-eyed with nostalgia, people set aside old political gripes for a few days and remembered what friend and foe always conceded to Ronald Reagan: He was damned impressive in the role of leader of the free world. A sign in the crowd, spotted during the slow roll to the Capitol rotunda, seemed to sum up the mood—a portrait of my father and the words NOW THERE WAS A PRESIDENT.

The comparison underscored something important. And the guy on the stool, Lynndie, and her grinning cohorts, they brought the word: The Bush administration can't be trusted. The parade of Bush officials before various commissions and committees—Paul Wolfowitz, who couldn't quite remember how many young Americans had been sacrificed on the altar of his ideology; John Ashcroft, lip quivering as, for a delicious, fleeting moment, it looked as if Senator Joe Biden might just come over the table at him—these were a continuing reminder. The Enron creeps, too—a reminder of how certain environments and particular habits of mind can erode common decency. People noticed. A tipping point had been reached. The issue of credibility was back on the table. The L-word was in circulation. Not the tired old bromide liberal. That's so 1988. No, this time something much more potent: liar.

Politicians will stretch the truth. They'll exaggerate their accomplishments, paper over their gaffes. Spin has long been the lingua franca of the political realm. But George W. Bush and his administration have taken "normal" mendacity to a startling new level far beyond lies of convenience. On top of the usual massaging of public perception, they traffic in big lies, indulge in any number of symptomatic small lies, and, ultimately, have come to embody dishonesty itself. They are a lie. And people, finally, have started catching on.

None of this, needless to say, guarantees Bush a one-term presidency. The far-right wing of the country—nearly one third of us by some estimates—continues to regard all who refuse to drink the Kool-Aid (liberals, rationalists, Europeans, et cetera) as agents of Satan. Bush could show up on video canoodling with Paris Hilton and still bank their vote. Right-wing talking heads continue painting anyone who fails to genuflect deeply enough as a "hater," and therefore a nut job, probably a crypto-Islamist car bomber. But these protestations have taken on a hysterical, almost comically desperate tone. It's one thing to get trashed by Michael Moore. But when Nobel laureates, a vast majority of the scientific community, and a host of current and former diplomats, intelligence operatives, and military officials line up against you, it becomes increasingly difficult to characterize the opposition as fringe wackos.

Does anyone really favor an administration that so shamelessly lies? One that so tenaciously clings to secrecy, not to protect the American people, but to protect itself? That so willfully misrepresents its true aims and so knowingly misleads the people from whom it derives its power? I simply cannot think so. And to come to the same conclusion does not make you guilty of swallowing some liberal critique of the Bush presidency, because that's not what this is. This is the critique of a person who thinks that lying at the top levels of his government is abhorrent. Call it the honest guy's critique of George W. Bush.

THE MOST EGREGIOUS EXAMPLES OF distortion and misdirection—which the administration even now cannot bring itself to repudiate—involve our putative "War on Terror" and our subsequent foray into Iraq.

During his campaign for the presidency, Mr. Bush pledged a more "humble" foreign policy. "I would take the use of force very seriously," he said. "I would be guarded in my approach." Other countries would resent us "if we're an arrogant nation." He sniffed at the notion of "nation building." "Our military is meant to fight and win wars. . . . And when it gets overextended, morale drops." International cooperation and consensus building would be the cornerstone of a Bush administration's approach to the larger world. Given candidate Bush's remarks, it was hard to imagine him, as president, flipping a stiff middle finger at the world and charging off adventuring in the Middle East.

But didn't 9/11 reshuffle the deck, changing everything? Didn't Mr. Bush, on September 12, 2001, awaken to the fresh realization that bad guys in charge of Islamic nations constitute an entirely new and grave threat to us and have to be ruthlessly confronted lest they threaten the American homeland again? Wasn't Saddam Hussein rushed to the front of the line because he was complicit with the hijackers and in some measure responsible for the atrocities in Washington, D. C., and at the tip of Manhattan?

Well, no.

As Bush's former Treasury secretary, Paul O'Neill, and his onetime "terror czar," Richard A. Clarke, have made clear, the president, with the enthusiastic encouragement of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz, was contemplating action against Iraq from day one. "From the start, we were building the case against Hussein and looking at how we could take him out," O'Neill said. All they needed was an excuse. Clarke got the same impression from within the White House. Afghanistan had to be dealt with first; that's where the actual perpetrators were, after all. But the Taliban was a mere appetizer; Saddam was the entrée. (Or who knows? The soup course?) It was simply a matter of convincing the American public (and our representatives) that war was justified.

The real—but elusive—prime mover behind the 9/11 attacks, Osama bin Laden, was quickly relegated to a back burner (a staff member at Fox News—the cable-TV outlet of the Bush White House—told me a year ago that mere mention of bin Laden's name was forbidden within the company, lest we be reminded that the actual bad guy remained at large) while Saddam's Iraq became International Enemy Number One. Just like that, a country whose economy had been reduced to shambles by international sanctions, whose military was less than half the size it had been when the U. S. Army rolled over it during the first Gulf war, that had extensive no-flight zones imposed on it in the north and south as well as constant aerial and satellite surveillance, and whose lethal weapons and capacity to produce such weapons had been destroyed or seriously degraded by UN inspection teams became, in Mr. Bush's words, "a threat of unique urgency" to the most powerful nation on earth.

Fanciful but terrifying scenarios were introduced: Unmanned aircraft, drones, had been built for missions targeting the U. S., Bush told the nation. "We don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud," National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice deadpanned to CNN. And, Bush maintained, "Iraq could decide on any given day to provide a biological or chemical weapon to a terrorist group or individual terrorists." We "know" Iraq possesses such weapons, Rumsfeld and Vice-President Cheney assured us. We even "know" where they are hidden. After several months of this mumbo jumbo, 70 percent of Americans had embraced the fantasy that Saddam destroyed the World Trade Center.

ALL THESE ASSERTIONS have proved to be baseless and, we've since discovered, were regarded with skepticism by experts at the time they were made. But contrary opinions were derided, ignored, or covered up in the rush to war. Even as of this writing, Dick Cheney clings to his mad assertion that Saddam was somehow at the nexus of a worldwide terror network.

And then there was Abu Ghraib. Our "war president" may have been justified in his assumption that Americans are a warrior people. He pushed the envelope in thinking we'd be content as an occupying power, but he was sadly mistaken if he thought that ordinary Americans would tolerate an image of themselves as torturers. To be fair, the torture was meant to be secret. So were the memos justifying such treatment that had floated around the White House, Pentagon, and Justice Department for more than a year before the first photos came to light. The neocons no doubt appreciate that few of us have the stones to practice the New Warfare. Could you slip a pair of women's panties over the head of a naked, cowering stranger while forcing him to masturbate? What would you say while sodomizing him with a toilet plunger? Is keeping someone awake till he hallucinates inhumane treatment or merely "sleep management"?

Most of us know the answers to these questions, so it was incumbent upon the administration to pretend that Abu Ghraib was an aberration, not policy. Investigations, we were assured, were already under way; relevant bureaucracies would offer unstinting cooperation; the handful of miscreants would be sternly disciplined. After all, they didn't "represent the best of what America's all about." As anyone who'd watched the proceedings of the 9/11 Commission could have predicted, what followed was the usual administration strategy of stonewalling, obstruction, and obfuscation. The appointment of investigators was stalled; documents were withheld, including the full report by Major General Antonio Taguba, who headed the Army's primary investigation into the abuses at Abu Ghraib. A favorite moment for many featured John McCain growing apoplectic as Donald Rumsfeld and an entire tableful of army brass proved unable to answer the simple question Who was in charge at Abu Ghraib?

The Bush administration no doubt had its real reasons for invading and occupying Iraq. They've simply chosen not to share them with the American public. They sought justification for ignoring the Geneva Convention and other statutes prohibiting torture and inhumane treatment of prisoners but were loath to acknowledge as much. They may have ideas worth discussing, but they don't welcome the rest of us in the conversation. They don't trust us because they don't dare expose their true agendas to the light of day. There is a surreal quality to all this: Occupation is liberation; Iraq is sovereign, but we're in control; Saddam is in Iraqi custody, but we've got him; we'll get out as soon as an elected Iraqi government asks us, but we'll be there for years to come. Which is what we counted on in the first place, only with rose petals and easy coochie.

This Möbius reality finds its domestic analogue in the perversely cynical "Clear Skies" and "Healthy Forests" sloganeering at Bush's EPA and in the administration's irresponsible tax cutting and other fiscal shenanigans. But the Bush administration has always worn strangely tinted shades, and you wonder to what extent Mr. Bush himself lives in a world of his own imagining.

And chances are your America and George W. Bush's America are not the same place. If you are dead center on the earning scale in real-world twenty-first-century America, you make a bit less than $32,000 a year, and $32,000 is not a sum that Mr. Bush has ever associated with getting by in his world. Bush, who has always managed to fail upwards in his various careers, has never had a job the way you have a job—where not showing up one morning gets you fired, costing you your health benefits. He may find it difficult to relate personally to any of the nearly two million citizens who've lost their jobs under his administration, the first administration since Herbert Hoover's to post a net loss of jobs. Mr. Bush has never had to worry that he couldn't afford the best available health care for his children. For him, forty-three million people without health insurance may be no more than a politically inconvenient abstraction. When Mr. Bush talks about the economy, he is not talking about your economy. His economy is filled with pals called Kenny-boy who fly around in their own airplanes. In Bush's economy, his world, friends relocate offshore to avoid paying taxes. Taxes are for chumps like you. You are not a friend. You're the help. When the party Mr. Bush is hosting in his world ends, you'll be left picking shrimp toast out of the carpet.

ALL ADMINISTRATIONS WILL DISSEMBLE, distort, or outright lie when their backs are against the wall, when honesty begins to look like political suicide. But this administration seems to lie reflexively, as if it were simply the easiest option for busy folks with a lot on their minds. While the big lies are more damning and of immeasurably greater import to the nation, it is the small, unnecessary prevarications that may be diagnostic. Who lies when they don't have to? When the simple truth, though perhaps embarrassing in the short run, is nevertheless in one's long-term self-interest? Why would a president whose calling card is his alleged rock-solid integrity waste his chief asset for penny-ante stakes? Habit, perhaps. Or an inability to admit even small mistakes.

Mr. Bush's tendency to meander beyond the bounds of truth was evident during the 2000 campaign but was largely ignored by the mainstream media. His untruths simply didn't fit the agreed-upon narrative. While generally acknowledged to be lacking in experience, depth, and other qualifications typically considered useful in a leader of the free world, Bush was portrayed as a decent fellow nonetheless, one whose straightforwardness was a given. None of that "what the meaning of is is" business for him. And, God knows, no furtive, taxpayer-funded fellatio sessions with the interns. Al Gore, on the other hand, was depicted as a dubious self-reinventor, stained like a certain blue dress by Bill Clinton's prurient transgressions. He would spend valuable weeks explaining away statements—"I invented the Internet"—that he never made in the first place. All this left the coast pretty clear for Bush.

Scenario typical of the 2000 campaign: While debating Al Gore, Bush tells two obvious—if not exactly earth-shattering—lies and is not challenged. First, he claims to have supported a patient's bill of rights while governor of Texas. This is untrue. He, in fact, vigorously resisted such a measure, only reluctantly bowing to political reality and allowing it to become law without his signature. Second, he announces that Gore has outspent him during the campaign. The opposite is true: Bush has outspent Gore. These misstatements are briefly acknowledged in major press outlets, which then quickly return to the more germane issues of Gore's pancake makeup and whether a certain feminist author has counseled him to be more of an "alpha male."

Having gotten away with such witless falsities, perhaps Mr. Bush and his team felt somehow above day-to-day truth. In any case, once ensconced in the White House, they picked up where they left off.

IN THE IMMEDIATE AFTERMATH and confusion of 9/11, Bush, who on that day was in Sarasota, Florida, conducting an emergency reading of "The Pet Goat," was whisked off to Nebraska aboard Air Force One. While this may have been entirely sensible under the chaotic circumstances—for all anyone knew at the time, Washington might still have been under attack—the appearance was, shall we say, less than gallant. So a story was concocted: There had been a threat to Air Force One that necessitated the evasive maneuver. Bush's chief political advisor, Karl Rove, cited "specific" and "credible" evidence to that effect. The story quickly unraveled. In truth, there was no such threat.

Then there was Bush's now infamous photo-op landing aboard the USS Abraham Lincoln and his subsequent speech in front of a large banner emblazoned MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. The banner, which loomed in the background as Bush addressed the crew, became problematic as it grew clear that the mission in Iraq—whatever that may have been—was far from accomplished. "Major combat operations," as Bush put it, may have technically ended, but young Americans were still dying almost daily. So the White House dealt with the questionable banner in a manner befitting a president pledged to "responsibility and accountability": It blamed the sailors. No surprise, a bit of digging by journalists revealed the banner and its premature triumphalism to be the work of the White House communications office.

More serious by an order of magnitude was the administration's dishonesty concerning pre-9/11 terror warnings. As questions first arose about the country's lack of preparedness in the face of terrorist assault, Condoleezza Rice was dispatched to the pundit arenas to assure the nation that "no one could have imagined terrorists using aircraft as weapons." In fact, terrorism experts had warned repeatedly of just such a calamity. In June 2001, CIA director George Tenet sent Rice an intelligence report warning that "it is highly likely that a significant Al Qaeda attack is in the near future, within several weeks." Two intelligence briefings given to Bush in the summer of 2001 specifically connected Al Qaeda to the imminent danger of hijacked planes being used as weapons. According to The New York Times, after the second of these briefings, titled "Bin Laden Determined to Attack Inside United States," was delivered to the president at his ranch in Crawford, Texas, in August, Bush "broke off from work early and spent most of the day fishing." This was the briefing Dr. Rice dismissed as "historical" in her testimony before the 9/11 Commission.

What's odd is that none of these lies were worth the breath expended in the telling. If only for self-serving political reasons, honesty was the way to go. The flight of Air Force One could easily have been explained in terms of security precautions taken in the confusion of momentous events. As for the carrier landing, someone should have fallen on his or her sword at the first hint of trouble: We told the president he needed to do it; he likes that stuff and was gung-ho; we figured, What the hell?; it was a mistake. The banner? We thought the sailors would appreciate it. In retrospect, also a mistake. Yup, we sure feel dumb now. Owning up to the 9/11 warnings would have entailed more than simple embarrassment. But done forthrightly and immediately, an honest reckoning would have earned the Bush team some respect once the dust settled. Instead, by needlessly tap-dancing, Bush's White House squandered vital credibility, turning even relatively minor gaffes into telling examples of its tendency to distort and evade the truth.

But image is everything in this White House, and the image of George Bush as a noble and infallible warrior in the service of his nation must be fanatically maintained, because behind the image lies...nothing? As Jonathan Alter of Newsweek has pointed out, Bush has "never fully inhabited" the presidency. Bush apologists can smilingly excuse his malopropisms and vagueness as the plainspokenness of a man of action, but watching Bush flounder when attempting to communicate extemporaneously, one is left with the impression that he is ineloquent not because he can't speak but because he doesn't bother to think.

GEORGE W. BUSH PROMISED to "change the tone in Washington" and ran for office as a moderate, a "compassionate conservative," in the focus-group-tested sloganeering of his campaign. Yet he has governed from the right wing of his already conservative party, assiduously tending a "base" that includes, along with the expected Fortune 500 fat cats, fiscal evangelicals who talk openly of doing away with Social Security and Medicare, of shrinking government to the size where they can, in tax radical Grover Norquist's phrase, "drown it in the bathtub." That base also encompasses a healthy share of anti-choice zealots, homophobic bigots, and assorted purveyors of junk science. Bush has tossed bones to all of them—"partial birth" abortion legislation, the promise of a constitutional amendment banning marriage between homosexuals, federal roadblocks to embryonic-stem-cell research, even comments suggesting presidential doubts about Darwinian evolution. It's not that Mr. Bush necessarily shares their worldview; indeed, it's unclear whether he embraces any coherent philosophy. But this president, who vowed to eschew politics in favor of sound policy, panders nonetheless in the interest of political gain. As John DiIulio, Bush's former head of the Office of Community and Faith-Based Initiatives, once told this magazine, "What you've got is everything—and I mean everything—being run by the political arm."

This was not what the American electorate opted for when, in 2000, by a slim but decisive margin of more than half a million votes, they chose...the other guy. Bush has never had a mandate. Surveys indicate broad public dissatisfaction with his domestic priorities. How many people would have voted for Mr. Bush in the first place had they understood his eagerness to pass on crushing debt to our children or seen his true colors regarding global warming and the environment? Even after 9/11, were people really looking to be dragged into an optional war under false pretenses?

If ever there was a time for uniting and not dividing, this is it. Instead, Mr. Bush governs as if by divine right, seeming to actually believe that a wise God wants him in the White House and that by constantly evoking the horrible memory of September 11, 2001, he can keep public anxiety stirred up enough to carry him to another term.

UNDERSTANDABLY, SOME SUPPORTERS of Mr. Bush's will believe I harbor a personal vendetta against the man, some seething resentment. One conservative commentator, based on earlier remarks I've made, has already discerned "jealousy" on my part; after all, Bush, the son of a former president, now occupies that office himself, while I, most assuredly, will not. Truth be told, I have no personal feelings for Bush at all. I hardly know him, having met him only twice, briefly and uneventfully—once during my father's presidency and once during my father's funeral. I'll acknowledge occasional annoyance at the pretense that he's somehow a clone of my father, but far from threatening, I see this more as silly and pathetic. My father, acting roles excepted, never pretended to be anyone but himself. His Republican party, furthermore, seems a far cry from the current model, with its cringing obeisance to the religious Right and its kill-anything-that-moves attack instincts. Believe it or not, I don't look in the mirror every morning and see my father looming over my shoulder. I write and speak as nothing more or less than an American citizen, one who is plenty angry about the direction our country is being dragged by the current administration. We have reached a critical juncture in our nation's history, one ripe with both danger and possibility. We need leadership with the wisdom to prudently confront those dangers and the imagination to boldly grasp the possibilities. Beyond issues of fiscal irresponsibility and ill-advised militarism, there is a question of trust. George W. Bush and his allies don't trust you and me. Why on earth, then, should we trust them?

Fortunately, we still live in a democratic republic. The Bush team cannot expect a cabal of right-wing justices to once again deliver the White House. Come November 2, we will have a choice: We can embrace a lie, or we can restore a measure of integrity to our government. We can choose, as a bumper sticker I spotted in Seattle put it, SOMEONE ELSE FOR PRESIDENT.
Social Progressionists
17-08-2004, 12:31
Bump.
Nebbyland
17-08-2004, 12:56
Now that's a nice little article, where was it published out of interest?

Any of the traditional Bush supporters want to start tearing it appart?

luv ya
Chess Squares
17-08-2004, 13:11
*Stamps "OWN3D" on all the right-wing foreheads*
Social Progressionists
17-08-2004, 13:31
Well, I do not know where it was originally posted but I found it, please don't hit me, on michaelmoore.com
Demented Hamsters
17-08-2004, 13:34
You can find it here:
http://www.esquire.com/features/articles/2004/040729_mfe_reagan_1.html
Commie-Pinko Scum
17-08-2004, 13:36
Quite surprising when I heard abour Reagan Jr., I thought he'd be a carbon copy of his dad. I thought wrong.

Just a few quotes by him...

"We reveal ourselves in small moments, and one of those small moments that didn't get nearly the play it should have was the Carla Faye Tucker incident. . . .When Bush was asked by the conservative journalist Tucker Carlson shortly {after the execution} what he thought Carla Faye Tucker might have said to him . . ., he put on a squeaky little voice and said, "Please don't kill me! Please don't kill me!" Now, it takes a special kind of guy to ridicule a woman he's just put to death. If that doesn't demonstrate a lack of gravitas, as well as a lack of dignity and self-respect, I don't know what does. . . . So--experience, aptitude, temperament: I think Bush falls short in all three."

"Now, what happens when you go in the Oval Office is you start living in a bubble, you know, you don't read the paper anymore, you just listen to who you want to listen to. And we're seeing that now. David Kay, for instance, comes out with a report and says Iraq never had weapons of mass destruction. What does George W. Bush say? `Well, I still think they had them.' That's not just spin. That's dementia, you know"

"And the weapons of mass destruction? Whatever happened to them? I'm sure we'll find some, they're being flown in right now in a C-130."

and my personal favourite....

"My father crapped bigger ones than George Bush"--Ron Reagan Jr., April 2003
Paxania
17-08-2004, 13:43
Eh, the whole thing's not worth reading. It's apparently just the old liberal clichés and Ron Reagan using his name again. Oh, I almost forgot. *Shoots Chess Squares's right knee for stamping him without his permission* There. Hopefully, that will deter the rest of you would be head-stampers. Where was I? Oh, yes. At the end, I see he writes, "SOMEONE ELSE FOR PRESIDENT". Who, then? Who would you rather have? If you're going to object, give an alternative.
Chess Squares
17-08-2004, 13:51
Eh, the whole thing's not worth reading. It's apparently just the old liberal clichés and Ron Reagan using his name again. Oh, I almost forgot. *Shoots Chess Squares's right knee for stamping him without his permission* There. Hopefully, that will deter the rest of you would be head-stampers. Where was I? Oh, yes. At the end, I see he writes, "SOMEONE ELSE FOR PRESIDENT". Who, then? Who would you rather have? If you're going to object, give an alternative.
you didnt have to say you didnt read it, its obvious in the bull and cock explanation you give about it being old liberals cliches and jr throwing his name sake around. hey maybe you should read it, and you know, get a clue. and if anyone throws reagan's name around its bush.
Incertonia
17-08-2004, 14:02
Quite surprising when I heard abour Reagan Jr., I thought he'd be a carbon copy of his dad. I thought wrong.
It's the other son, Michael, who tries to carry the conservative torch for his dad, and does so embarassingly. Michael is somewhere to the right of Limbaugh, which is tough to do, but somehow Michael manages. He also whores the Reagan name out to Newsmax and endorses all their Reagan products.

Ron Jr has always been an independent guy who didn't get much involved in the political end of things until recently. The one thing that has come through about him in the last 3 years, though, is that he resents the attempt to turn his father into some sort of far-right, wingnut demigod, and he definitely resents the attmpt by Bush the Lesser to wrap himself in the mantle of Reagan. I don't blame him. If anything came out of the week-long Reagasm that followed his death, it was that in a side-by-side comparison, Bush comes out looking awfully small.
Demented Hamsters
17-08-2004, 14:36
Eh, the whole thing's not worth reading. It's apparently just the old liberal clichés and Ron Reagan using his name again. Oh, I almost forgot. *Shoots Chess Squares's right knee for stamping him without his permission* There. Hopefully, that will deter the rest of you would be head-stampers. Where was I? Oh, yes. At the end, I see he writes, "SOMEONE ELSE FOR PRESIDENT". Who, then? Who would you rather have? If you're going to object, give an alternative.

That's what I 'love' about conservatives: As soon as an alternative view is put up, it's 'not worth reading'. Lord knows you wouldn't want to hear any reasoned counter-argument that might cause you to question your beliefs. Far easier to ignore, rubbish it and if necessary take one line completely out of context and ridicule the whole article based on it.
Social Progressionists
17-08-2004, 16:05
Bump.
Grebonia
17-08-2004, 16:16
*Stamps "OWN3D" on all the right-wing foreheads*

Why, Ron Reagan junior has always swung more to the left. This is nothing new. Reagan's older son and nancy have both recently made a statement that inspite of their disagreements with Bush over stem cell research, they are still one hundred percent behind him for president.

He also whores the Reagan name out to Newsmax and endorses all their Reagan products.

Haha, Ron jr has done his fair share of whoring out Reagan's name lately. Notice the article even says By Ron Reagan...misleading, because they leave out the junior.
Saline County
17-08-2004, 16:36
That's what I 'love' about conservatives: As soon as an alternative view is put up, it's 'not worth reading'. Lord knows you wouldn't want to hear any reasoned counter-argument that might cause you to question your beliefs. Far easier to ignore, rubbish it and if necessary take one line completely out of context and ridicule the whole article based on it.

No, actually, many of us conservatives are more than open to an opposing view. And -- here's a shock for you -- a lot of us Reaganites are none to fond of Bush. However, we've been given no opposing view of Bush that has anything to do with John Kerry. What does Kerry stand for? Why should we line up and vote for him? What does he have to offer that Bush doesn't? Those questions haven't been answered so far and they probably won't be prior to the upcoming election.

However, articles such as Ron Reagan's are sadly typical -- you get a lot of Bush bashing, but virtually nothing mentioned about the qualifications of his opponent. What we're left with in this election is shocking. We've got our choices of George W. Bush or someone other than Bush. We don't know a damn thing about John Kerry other than the fact that he's not George W. Bush. Instead of relying on boring on platforms and issues, Kerry's primary message is, "Vote for me because I'm not George W. Bush." The Democrats could have run a squirrel, a rabbit or a Bengal tiger against Bush and they would have had a candidate with about as much substance as Kerry.

We are on the verge of putting someone in office simply because he's not Bush. The Democrats had a chance of dominating this election, but chose to run an old-school, hatchet-faced liberal who may or may not be worse for the country than the current resident of the White House (of course, we don't know what Kerry will be like as a president -- his views seem to fall in line with the last person or group of people he's talked to).
Demented Hamsters
17-08-2004, 17:06
Well to be honest, I was going to say any intolerant with set political viewpoints, as I know there's ppl over on the left just as bad in not wanting to listen to any other view but ones that support their own, but I was bored and just trolling.
But anyway as to your point we've been given no opposing view of Bush that has anything to do with John Kerry Why can't someone put up their view/opinion about one Candidate, without having to compare them to all the others? If I tell you I like chocolate icecream, would you then insist on me giving you my opinions as to every other type of ice-cream out there?
I think Ron Reagan hinted as to his feelings towards Kerry by the SOMEONE ELSE FOR PRESIDENT bit. He didn't say Kerry, now did he. So you can read that as you may, but I hardly think it's an endorsement of Kerry.
Also it was also a opinion-piece of the administration, not just Bush. It was more a anti-Bush Admin essay than purely anti-Bush (though I know Ron has a very low opinion of Bush).
Sumamba Buwhan
17-08-2004, 17:12
If you as a Republican say you are open to opposing views but then you say you know nothing of John Kerry other than "he is not Bush", then you are obviously not as open to opposing views as you claim, as there has been substantial talk of what Kerry is saying he will do as President. he has a website if you wish to see what he is planning to do as President. If youa re so open you might want to check it out.
LordaeronII
17-08-2004, 17:43
I actually read the whole article... pretty long... and mostly rehashing what's been said a million times by all the Bush-haters and Democrats.

Some of his statements shows he simply listens to what he wants to, and ignores other sources, such as when he says that Al Gore (although not by name) won by half a million votes in the 2000 election. There were so many inquiries into this, and over and over again, it was shown that Bush won, fair and square. Of course the left-wing media and media personalities didn't care, they kept telling everyone that Bush rigged the election. Which side is it that keeps rehashing old lies now?

Now I've never claimed to like Bush, while I support the war on Iraq in itself, I am opposed to the fact that Bush tried to link it to the war on terror. I think the Iraqi taliban regime should have been taken out a long time ago.... human rights violations mostly. I'm not usually huge on the whole human rights thing, but I think the taliban took it to extremes.

It IS true, no matter how much you want to deny it, that most of the case for Kerry is that he's not Bush. Of course he's mentioned his policies and what he'll do as president, what candidate doesn't? However, he doesn't focus on it. He focuses on his experience in Vietnam (which really wouldn't mean shit for how good of a president he'd be, just means he's a good soldier), and the fact he's not Bush.

Bush has lied more than most politicians, I'll admit that. However, every politician lies, most less than Bush because WHEN THEY WERE IN POWER NOTHING SIGNIFICANT HAPPENED. 9/11 was a foreign attack on home soil no matter how you put it, and the only large scale one to happen in a long long time. That's pretty significant, and it is bound to bring up some more lies from the president (not that I approve of it, but I'm saying Gore or Kerry would have both been way worse in the same situation, tell me, what would they have done?)

Many people I've noticed bash Bush for the Patriot Acts (not in this article, this is just generally speaking of most anti-Bush people), while I hate the Patriot Acts too, do you see Kerry even mentioning repealing them? No!

Ahhhhh I have to go now, stupid volunteer work, little kids annoy me.... ah well...
Dempublicents
17-08-2004, 17:49
I actually read the whole article... pretty long... and mostly rehashing what's been said a million times by all the Bush-haters and Democrats.

Maybe because those are problems with the Bush administration?

Some of his statements shows he simply listens to what he wants to, and ignores other sources, such as when he says that Al Gore (although not by name) won by half a million votes in the 2000 election. There were so many inquiries into this, and over and over again, it was shown that Bush won, fair and square. Of course the left-wing media and media personalities didn't care, they kept telling everyone that Bush rigged the election. Which side is it that keeps rehashing old lies now?

Regardless of how it eventually turned out, Gore won the popular vote. Bush didn't win by a landslide and should never have taken the election to mean the people gave him free reign to do whatever he wanted.

Now I've never claimed to like Bush, while I support the war on Iraq in itself, I am opposed to the fact that Bush tried to link it to the war on terror. I think the Iraqi taliban regime should have been taken out a long time ago.... human rights violations mostly. I'm not usually huge on the whole human rights thing, but I think the taliban took it to extremes.

Just a quick point so you don't look uninformed. There was no "Iraqi taliban regime." The taliban was in Afghanistan, the Iraqi regime was Saddam Hussein and his evil little sons.

It IS true, no matter how much you want to deny it, that most of the case for Kerry is that he's not Bush. Of course he's mentioned his policies and what he'll do as president, what candidate doesn't? However, he doesn't focus on it. He focuses on his experience in Vietnam (which really wouldn't mean shit for how good of a president he'd be, just means he's a good soldier), and the fact he's not Bush.

I would say that the case for Kerry is that he will do away with some of the really bad things Bush did. Yup.

Bush has lied more than most politicians, I'll admit that. However, every politician lies, most less than Bush because WHEN THEY WERE IN POWER NOTHING SIGNIFICANT HAPPENED. 9/11 was a foreign attack on home soil no matter how you put it, and the only large scale one to happen in a long long time. That's pretty significant, and it is bound to bring up some more lies from the president (not that I approve of it, but I'm saying Gore or Kerry would have both been way worse in the same situation, tell me, what would they have done?)

Wait, so making shit up is ok as long as it's about something significant? Yeah, that makes great sense.
Saline County
17-08-2004, 18:14
Well to be honest, I was going to say any intolerant with set political viewpoints, as I know there's ppl over on the left just as bad in not wanting to listen to any other view but ones that support their own, but I was bored and just trolling.
But anyway as to your point Why can't someone put up their view/opinion about one Candidate, without having to compare them to all the others? If I tell you I like chocolate icecream, would you then insist on me giving you my opinions as to every other type of ice-cream out there?
I think Ron Reagan hinted as to his feelings towards Kerry by the bit. He didn't say Kerry, now did he. So you can read that as you may, but I hardly think it's an endorsement of Kerry.
Also it was also a opinion-piece of the administration, not just Bush. It was more a anti-Bush Admin essay than purely anti-Bush (though I know Ron has a very low opinion of Bush).

Floated during an election year, what else would it be but an endorsement of Kerry? But, my original point was (and remains) this -- this is the type of thing the Dems are floating out there this year. Sure, it only addresses Bush, but most of what the Dems are saying these days is addressing Bush, and Bush alone. That is a concern, particularly when we think back to the Nixon years. Remember how Nixon disgraced the Republicans and, in 1976, many Americans made the decision to vote against anyone who wasn't a Republican.

So, we wound up with Carter. Now, Carter, of course, is as fine an individual as you'll find, and he's done more to benefit mankind than any other ex-president you'd care to mention. However, he was a terrible president, but the theory at the time was, "Well, he's not one of those damn Nixon Republicans, so how bad could he be?" We found out, in short order, how rotten Carter could be.

We may be setting ourselves up for the same mess with Kerry.
Saline County
17-08-2004, 18:18
If you as a Republican say you are open to opposing views but then you say you know nothing of John Kerry other than "he is not Bush", then you are obviously not as open to opposing views as you claim, as there has been substantial talk of what Kerry is saying he will do as President. he has a website if you wish to see what he is planning to do as President. If youa re so open you might want to check it out.

Oh, you mean the fellow who voted to go into Iraq and is now against it? The one who never met a fuel tax he didn't like? The same Kerry who stood opposed to Vietnam but is now making political hay out of the fact he's a veteran? The same Kerry who has promised to magically create 10 million jobs and give anyone who buys a qualifying fuel-efficient vehicle a $5,000 tax cut? What we can learn from Kerry is that his mind changes on a whim, and he's out making promises he either can't or won't keep (I'm still waiting for my middle class tax cut that Clinton promised in 1992, by the way).

Thanks for clouding the issue, but you simply can't deny that Kerry's strongest message is that he's not George W. Bush, so we should line up and vote for him. Sorry. That type of non-strategy didn't work for Dole in 1996, and Kerry ought to be ashamed for adopting it now.
Demented Hamsters
17-08-2004, 18:21
Bush has lied more than most politicians, I'll admit that. However, every politician lies, most less than Bush because WHEN THEY WERE IN POWER NOTHING SIGNIFICANT HAPPENED. 9/11 was a foreign attack on home soil no matter how you put it, and the only large scale one to happen in a long long time. That's pretty significant, and it is bound to bring up some more lies from the president.

Could you run that past me again? Because there was a terrorist attack on US soil, that gave the President of the United States reason to lie to the US public.
WTF? :confused:
Grebonia
17-08-2004, 19:23
Bush has lied more than most politicians, I'll admit that. However, every politician lies, most less than Bush because WHEN THEY WERE IN POWER NOTHING SIGNIFICANT HAPPENED. 9/11 was a foreign attack on home soil no matter how you put it, and the only large scale one to happen in a long long time. That's pretty significant, and it is bound to bring up some more lies from the president.

Somebody please list for me which lies he told exactly? Anybody who says he lied about the WMD in Iraq is an idiot who didn't read the 9/11 Commission's report.
East Canuck
17-08-2004, 19:29
Somebody please list for me which lies he told exactly? Anybody who says he lied about the WMD in Iraq is an idiot who didn't read the 9/11 Commission's report.
He lied about WMD being the reason the US is in Iraq.
Cataslan
17-08-2004, 19:37
When Bush was asked by the conservative journalist Tucker Carlson shortly {after the execution} what he thought Carla Faye Tucker might have said to him . . ., he put on a squeaky little voice and said, "Please don't kill me! Please don't kill me!"

Look, I wouldn't have voted for Bush back in the day but that's just god damned hillarious. That's the kind of president I'd trade jokes with. Not one I'd trust with leading a country but yeah, great guy on a personal level as it seems.

And if I hear once more that Kerry won three pruple hearts I might as well start campaigning for Bush out of spite.

Still .. apt and hillarious comment.
Gods Bowels
17-08-2004, 19:42
Oh, you mean the fellow who voted to go into Iraq and is now against it? The one who never met a fuel tax he didn't like? The same Kerry who stood opposed to Vietnam but is now making political hay out of the fact he's a veteran? The same Kerry who has promised to magically create 10 million jobs and give anyone who buys a qualifying fuel-efficient vehicle a $5,000 tax cut? What we can learn from Kerry is that his mind changes on a whim, and he's out making promises he either can't or won't keep (I'm still waiting for my middle class tax cut that Clinton promised in 1992, by the way).

Thanks for clouding the issue, but you simply can't deny that Kerry's strongest message is that he's not George W. Bush, so we should line up and vote for him. Sorry. That type of non-strategy didn't work for Dole in 1996, and Kerry ought to be ashamed for adopting it now.


Hmmm the same tired old rhetoric every republican spews which is only a twisting of the facts. I would like you to show me all these articles where Kerry gloats about his military record.

Thats what I thought.

And on flip-flopping? follow the links on Sumamba Buwhans signature and stop using that idiotic arugment. Are you 3 years old?
Grebonia
17-08-2004, 19:44
He lied about WMD being the reason the US is in Iraq.

He actually laid out a list or reasons for invading Iraq, WMD was one of them. But thanks for playing.
Cataslan
17-08-2004, 19:45
Democratic National Convention. Footage of Kerry recieving the purple heart. It's all over the news that OH HE'S A VETERAN AND OH HE RECIEVED THREE PURPLE HEARTS! THREE? OH GOD YES SUSAN THREE!!!!1 and that he later opposed the war, etc.

Funny thing is that no one ever called him out on the fact that he sure as hell killed a bunch of Vietnamese himself.

So both presidential candidates are murderers and sadly the current president never actually killed anyone with his own hands (unless you count signing things.)

Funny moral highground.
East Canuck
17-08-2004, 19:50
He actually laid out a list or reasons for invading Iraq, WMD was one of them. But thanks for playing.
Yeah, he made a list and most of these reasons were debunked one after the other. Now he's sticking with "for the good of the Iraqi citizens" because no one can disproove it. Fun game you have here: being condescendant.
Cannot think of a name
17-08-2004, 19:53
Reagan's older son and nancy have both recently made a statement that inspite of their disagreements with Bush over stem cell research, they are still one hundred percent behind him for president.

I know it's niddling, and not really the point, but this can't be true. If they are not behind the stem cell policy, they cannot be 100% behind Bush, 99.9% perhaps, but not 100%-there is at least one area of contention.

Sorry, go on with the real debate....
Grebonia
17-08-2004, 19:59
Yeah, he made a list and most of these reasons were debunked one after the other. Now he's sticking with "for the good of the Iraqi citizens" because no one can disproove it. Fun game you have here: being condescendant.

Oh yeah, which one's have been debunked?
Cannot think of a name
17-08-2004, 19:59
Democratic National Convention. Footage of Kerry recieving the purple heart. It's all over the news that OH HE'S A VETERAN AND OH HE RECIEVED THREE PURPLE HEARTS! THREE? OH GOD YES SUSAN THREE!!!!1 and that he later opposed the war, etc.

Funny thing is that no one ever called him out on the fact that he sure as hell killed a bunch of Vietnamese himself.

So both presidential candidates are murderers and sadly the current president never actually killed anyone with his own hands (unless you count signing things.)

Funny moral highground.
This is silly.

Nevermind that Kerry called himself on the fact that he killed Vietnamese when he came back, but he killed them while in a war-thus to create this condemnation you'd have to condemn all the troops that Bush sent (gasp-you're not against our troops are you?????) and that Kerry is holding the people who make the decisions to send these people out to kill responsable for those decisions is pretty consistant for a guy called a flip-flopper. More germain, one showed remorse and introspection at doing his duty, the other glotted like a kid pulling wings off a fly.

I know who I'd choose to make decisions about my life and death.
East Canuck
17-08-2004, 20:05
Oh yeah, which one's have been debunked?
Saddam buying enriched uranium in africa
Ties to al-qaeda
Huge amount of WMD deployable in minutes (I'm not talking so much about wmd as about huge and quickly deplyable)
Immediate threat to the US
Knoxbanedoodle
17-08-2004, 20:20
No, actually, many of us conservatives are more than open to an opposing view. And -- here's a shock for you -- a lot of us Reaganites are none to fond of Bush. However, we've been given no opposing view of Bush that has anything to do with John Kerry. What does Kerry stand for? Why should we line up and vote for him? What does he have to offer that Bush doesn't? Those questions haven't been answered so far and they probably won't be prior to the upcoming election.

However, articles such as Ron Reagan's are sadly typical -- you get a lot of Bush bashing, but virtually nothing mentioned about the qualifications of his opponent. What we're left with in this election is shocking. We've got our choices of George W. Bush or someone other than Bush. We don't know a damn thing about John Kerry other than the fact that he's not George W. Bush. Instead of relying on boring on platforms and issues, Kerry's primary message is, "Vote for me because I'm not George W. Bush." The Democrats could have run a squirrel, a rabbit or a Bengal tiger against Bush and they would have had a candidate with about as much substance as Kerry.

We are on the verge of putting someone in office simply because he's not Bush. The Democrats had a chance of dominating this election, but chose to run an old-school, hatchet-faced liberal who may or may not be worse for the country than the current resident of the White House (of course, we don't know what Kerry will be like as a president -- his views seem to fall in line with the last person or group of people he's talked to).


Information on Kerry is everywhere. Like anything else, you have to look for it.

Kerry wants to fully fund any new public education initiatives

Kerry wants to return, hat in hand, to the world community

Kerry wants to roll back the tax cuts for anyone making $200,000 or more per year

Kerry wants to close tax-loopholes that award corporations for outsourcing or offshoring their workers, and award corporations that keep their people here

Kerry wants to adopt all the recommendations of the 9-11 Committee

Kerry wants to continue protecting ANWAR

Kerry wants to overhaul health insurance so that the insured are covered for any medical expense exceeding $50,000

Kerry wants to restore the image of America abroad - not to pander to the world community, mind you, but to enable greater cooperation on any number of fronts that will threaten and involve us in the future

These are all, for the most part, very practical and attainable initiatives. On the other side, the incumbent is ideologically extreme and a proven incompetent.

If it bothers you that all you ever seem to see are reasons to vote against Bush rather than for Kerry, Bush's own campaign must also strike you as very disconcerting. It has thusfar distinguished itself as the most negative blitz by an incumbent this early in the season ever. I know that after the republican convention we'll start hearing about some more substantive proposals - tax code overhaul evidently chief among them - but for the time being, it's like, c'mon, George? Where's that famed optimism? Where's that can-do attitude? Why all the hate?

Maybe it's 'cause he has nothing to run on.
Blinktonia
17-08-2004, 20:57
Haha, Ron jr has done his fair share of whoring out Reagan's name lately. Notice the article even says By Ron Reagan...misleading, because they leave out the junior.


Haha, that's sorta funny, cause Ron Reagan isn't a Jr. Go ahead, look it up. It's the same way George W. Bush is not a Jr. The President was Ronald Wilson Regean, the son's middle name is not Wilson, therefore Ronald Reagan the younger, is not Ronald Reagan, Jr. Boy, talk about misleading...
BLARGistania
17-08-2004, 21:12
Good article, but really long. I read about halfway down, I might pick up the other half later today. It's interesting that Reagan's son wrote this. Even more interesting was the fact that while he did talk about his father, he didn't idolize him, he focused on the point of the essay: a condemnation of the Bush administration. I give the guy props.
Grebonia
17-08-2004, 21:21
Saddam buying enriched uranium in africa
Ties to al-qaeda
Huge amount of WMD deployable in minutes (I'm not talking so much about wmd as about huge and quickly deplyable)
Immediate threat to the US

3 out of the 4 of them are just WMD....there was a whole list of reasons for going into Iraq....<sigh> now I'm gonna have to go find the list....
Saline County
17-08-2004, 21:40
I would like you to show me all these articles where Kerry gloats about his military record.

Uh, how about the umpteen times he's hollered about winning THREE PURPLE HEARTS -- COUNT 'EM -- ONE, TWO, THREE? If that's not gloating about a military record, I'm not sure what is.
Blinktonia
17-08-2004, 22:02
Uh, how about the umpteen times he's hollered about winning THREE PURPLE HEARTS -- COUNT 'EM -- ONE, TWO, THREE? If that's not gloating about a military record, I'm not sure what is.

It's cool how well you cite article of him saying that. No really it is. I mean you go from "Please show me where he said this" to "Anywhere, at the dinner table, litterally anywhere." I don't even know where you found those article, though I'm sure that it took time and lots of effort to do so. Bravo Saline, Bra-vo. You have bested all of us with your ability to back up arguements with clear and concise sources.
Incertonia
17-08-2004, 23:33
Why, Ron Reagan junior has always swung more to the left. This is nothing new. Reagan's older son and nancy have both recently made a statement that inspite of their disagreements with Bush over stem cell research, they are still one hundred percent behind him for president.



Haha, Ron jr has done his fair share of whoring out Reagan's name lately. Notice the article even says By Ron Reagan...misleading, because they leave out the junior.Actually, the article as printed in Esquire says, quite clearly, Ron Reagan Jr. I can't say why it's not in the title of this thread, but make no mistake--Reagan Jr is decidedly speaking for himself. And to my knowledge, Ron Jr. has not made a penny for his recent speaking and writing on stem cell research. Michael, however--well, his entire career is built around the fact that he's Ronald Reagan's son. Without that, he wouldn't have even the meager success he's had on talk radio (and you've got to suck bad to not pull an audience in right wing talk radio).
Blinktonia
17-08-2004, 23:59
Actually, the article as printed in Esquire says, quite clearly, Ron Reagan Jr. I can't say why it's not in the title of this thread, but make no mistake--Reagan Jr is decidedly speaking for himself. And to my knowledge, Ron Jr. has not made a penny for his recent speaking and writing on stem cell research. Michael, however--well, his entire career is built around the fact that he's Ronald Reagan's son. Without that, he wouldn't have even the meager success he's had on talk radio (and you've got to suck bad to not pull an audience in right wing talk radio).

I guess I'll have to say it agian. The 'Jr' is missing from "Ron Reagan Jr." because Ron Reagan is not a junior. I don't how to make this more clear people. His name is not Ronald Reagan, Jr. It isn't. His name is different from his fathers.
Incertonia
18-08-2004, 00:12
I guess I'll have to say it agian. The 'Jr' is missing from "Ron Reagan Jr." because Ron Reagan is not a junior. I don't how to make this more clear people. His name is not Ronald Reagan, Jr. It isn't. His name is different from his fathers.
My apologies. He's been referred to as Ron Jr. for years in the press, and when I did a google search, the first result came back with a Jr as well. The Esquire piece doesn't have it--you are correct.
Blinktonia
18-08-2004, 01:08
My apologies. He's been referred to as Ron Jr. for years in the press, and when I did a google search, the first result came back with a Jr as well. The Esquire piece doesn't have it--you are correct.

Yeah, that damn press...They do keep refering to him as Ron Reagan jr, and i think it's just gotten to a point where he knows that people are always going to call him that. It's just sorta weird that nobody calls him George Bush Jr. (or at least not chronically) cause it's the same situation really. I just wanted to make it clear that the man's not being misleading, he's being honest, and people are being mislead by the media that doesn't really care if they get the little details like that right.
Incertonia
18-08-2004, 01:17
In all fairness, the press did refer to Dubya as Junior at first, before they got the message that he wasn't. Difference was that Bush sought the spotlight, while Reagan hasn't,so there's been less of an effort to correct the record.
Ashmoria
18-08-2004, 01:22
Haha, Ron jr has done his fair share of whoring out Reagan's name lately. Notice the article even says By Ron Reagan...misleading, because they leave out the junior.
and in any case, when the sr is dead you are no longer a jr
Incertonia
18-08-2004, 01:53
and in any case, when the sr is dead you are no longer a jr
That was Kurt Vonnegut's argument anyway.
_Susa_
18-08-2004, 02:19
Everybody knows Ron Reagan is liberal. I could tell he hated George Bush when I first saw him on TV at his fathers funeral. He made a sly comment about his father never wearing religion on his sleeve, and immediately I could tell he was a Dubya hater.
Incertonia
18-08-2004, 04:37
Hey Susa, here's a concept that you might try twisting your pointed little head around. You don't have to be a liberal to hate Dubya. You just have to be sane and not be an asshole.
Blinktonia
18-08-2004, 04:46
Yeah Susa, or maybe you could have just give Ron Reagan the benefit of the doubt that night cause his father just died and Bush was trying to capitalize on it. You could have look at it that way before you decided to whip out the L-word and somehow condem him for it.

By the way, how did liberal become a bad word? I'm liberal and proud of it. I have socialist leanings. I'm a bleeding-heart. And yet somehow I still manage to think for myself. This country was founded on liberal idea, so liberal that they were radical. The Founding Fathers could have been hanged for being so liberal. Are you telling me that the men who wrote the Declaration of Indpendence, the men who authored the Constitution of the United State, are you telling me that they some how don't count cause they were on the left side of the aisle?
Kwangistar
18-08-2004, 04:54
How were they liberals? As far as I can tell, a lot of the colonies and founding fathers were mad at the British changing the way things were done, so they had a reactionary tilt to them ("We liked it better before King George was messing around") again. I guess it depends on your definition of liberal.
Blinktonia
18-08-2004, 05:05
How were they liberals? As far as I can tell, a lot of the colonies and founding fathers were mad at the British changing the way things were done, so they had a reactionary tilt to them ("We liked it better before King George was messing around") again. I guess it depends on your definition of liberal.

Well they weren't Reactionary by any stretch. Britian had a monarchy since before the founding of the colonies, the founding fathers wouldn't have known a time without a king. But they were radicals because they took a nation and turned it over to the people, something that had not been done in "modern" times. Then they go and preserve rights of the people to thing like religion and dissent, something that again had only ever been lightly touched on in Europe. These guys were totally going agianst the ways of the time. They were taking that leap forward while Europe was content with the status quo.
Kwangistar
18-08-2004, 05:09
Well they weren't Reactionary by any stretch. Britian had a monarchy since before the founding of the colonies, the founding fathers wouldn't have known a time without a king. But they were radicals because they took a nation and turned it over to the people, something that had not been done in "modern" times. Then they go and preserve rights of the people to thing like religion and dissent, something that again had only ever been lightly touched on in Europe. These guys were totally going agianst the ways of the time. They were taking that leap forward while Europe was content with the status quo.
But much of that was already established in the colonies. Quite a few of them had their own sort of representative assemblies (at least for white landowning men), many of which had had a decent amount of power at some time or another. They simply based the Constitution/Bill of Rights on the enlightenment, but even then, one of the more liberal founding fathers in John Adams went and got the Alien and Sedition acts passed.
Incertonia
18-08-2004, 05:16
But much of that was already established in the colonies. Quite a few of them had their own sort of representative assemblies (at least for white landowning men), many of which had had a decent amount of power at some time or another. They simply based the Constitution/Bill of Rights on the enlightenment, but even then, one of the more liberal founding fathers in John Adams went and got the Alien and Sedition acts passed.
They had local control to a large extent, but they didn't have a say in the actions back in England--not taxation without representation--and to demand that as a colony was a truly radical step. Colonies were established to serve the empire--it had always been that way. The Founders turned that idea on its head. It doesn't seem like such a big deal now, almost 230 years after it happened, but at the time it was astounding to think that colonies would have a say in the home government.
Blinktonia
18-08-2004, 05:20
But much of that was already established in the colonies. Quite a few of them had their own sort of representative assemblies (at least for white landowning men), many of which had had a decent amount of power at some time or another. They simply based the Constitution/Bill of Rights on the enlightenment, but even then, one of the more liberal founding fathers in John Adams went and got the Alien and Sedition acts passed.

True they did have those sorts of assemblies, but it should be noted they were still liberal for thier time. Things didn't work that way in the Old World. Assemblies didn't have much power, Kings did. So even at the founding of the assemblies they were liberal in nature.

Yes the Constitution and Bill of Rights have lots of the Enlightment in them, but remember the Enlightenment flew in the face of the status quo in Europe. People were saying ideas out loud that had never been said before. The were being progressive in thier value of human life and their ideas of rights.

Yeah, John Adams did pass those acts and they were deplorable. But sometimes people make mistakes. He did many other more liberal oriented actions earlier. Defending the British at the Boston Massacre, and getting them aquitted no less, seem like a very progressive idea, the idea of the right to fair trial and fair representation. I'm sure that if the Boston Massacre had happened in out modern political atmosphere, people would still be calling for the heads of the british soldier and John Adams himself. And all because he was supporting the Idea that all people have a right to be treated fairly by their government.
Straughn
18-08-2004, 06:28
Look, I wouldn't have voted for Bush back in the day but that's just god damned hillarious. That's the kind of president I'd trade jokes with. Not one I'd trust with leading a country but yeah, great guy on a personal level as it seems.

And if I hear once more that Kerry won three pruple hearts I might as well start campaigning for Bush out of spite.

Still .. apt and hillarious comment.
Yeah, say, capital punishment is pretty friggin hilarious isn't it!
Straughn
18-08-2004, 06:33
[

Funny thing is that no one ever called him out on the fact that he sure as hell killed a bunch of Vietnamese himself.


So, you either don't know about or are ignoring that big issue with the congressional hearings back when the Repubs tried to (then AND now) tie him to the whole Hanoi Jane thing? It was no small issue that he admitted what he did to make sure there was a hearing on military atrocities.