NationStates Jolt Archive

TO ALL SOCIALISTS: Please answer the following question.

Who were the two men who developed the concept of Socialism?


(yes, this sounds like an idiot question, however you guys should think twice before you answer)

Bump

I'm not a socialist, but I would say something like Jesus and ...ooohhh... John Ball? Proudhon? Comte-thingy?

I know the answer. Are you asking socialists only, to see if they even realize who it is?

Who were the two men who developed the concept of Socialism?

I really don't know. To my knowledge, it originated from workers who suffered under capitalism when Proudhon heard their ideas and wrote a book called "What is Property".

I'm not a socialist, but I would say something like Jesus and ...ooohhh... John Ball? Proudhon? Comte-thingy?

I thought you were a socialist. Why did you give up on freedom and become a capitalist?

I would say Fourier was one of them, also Bernstein was big

I thought you were a socialist.

Although I may consider myself an anarchist or an anarcho-communist, I don't consider myself a socialist.

Marx and Ingels.

robert owen would probably one

The first social movement that would be vaguely described as socialist would probably be the levellers of civil war england (FS was that Robert Owen - the name sounds familiar). I am sure superpower07 has some smart arse answer from out of the blue.

The first social movement that would be vaguely described as socialist would probably be the levellers of civil war england (FS was that Robert Owen - the name sounds familiar). I am sure superpower07 has some smart arse answer from out of the blue.

nah, owen comes later. i believe he actually used the term 'socialism', as opposed to earlier people and movements that have been claimed as socialistic such as the levellers and wat tyler's peasants rebellion.

Some two unknown best friend nobodies back in B.C.

I think the guy nailed to a tree is a good answer...

I would say Fourier was one of them, also Bernstein was big

Yep - you got Fourier, the one I was looking for


There is a difference between socialist movements and then the really famous person who actually comes out and says "hey, let's call this new philosophy socialism"

I wanted Socialists to distinguish that it was NOT Marx and Ingels (they were communists) who developed socialism.

Claude Henri de Saint-Simon

Claude Henri de Saint-Simon

Yep

So then what about Fourier and Claude Henri de Saint-Simon's views made them socialists? And did they write any books?

So then what about Fourier and Claude Henri de Saint-Simon's views made them socialists? And did they write any books?

I forget which one said this, but one of em said something about people being put into groups of 1600 and work for the benefit of everybody - I will admit that I'm a bit sketchy on their exact ideals

both Fourier and Saint-Simon were 'utopian' socialists (using utopian in a technical sense of having a utopia, not the perjorative (and wrong) sense of 'not being possible'. Marx and Engels used 'utopian' to mean 'non-scientific' socialism)

Saint-Simon was concerned with social upheaval and the direction of European society after the collapse of feudalism, his emphasis was on the modernising forces of science, industry and technology and the need to adapt social and political forces etc to these factors.

I think it was more his disciples who utilised the term socialism to describe SS's later thought - especially it's collectivist dimension.

Fourier was critical of bourgeois 'civilisation' and it's values. His vision of the future, his 'utopia' was communitarian. the number 1500-1800 comes from his idea of a 'phalanx' - a group organised so that labour was productive and attractive to workers (frequent changes to routine/job so that no great over-specialisation whist still retaining advantages of a division of labour), also involving systems of mutual support and democratic self government. also an early feminist, thinking women should be equal to men, and thought that the traditional family structure was oppresive

Fourier and Saint-Simon came to the fore in the early nineteenth century? In which case they were preceded (on a less theoretically sound basis) by numerous French Revolutionaries.

...

As in "As each of us was several, that already made quite a few people"?

So then what about Fourier and ?
Well he had some quite bizarre ideas.

Such as the anti-Lions, seas of lemonade and so forth.

I'd have to dig out my notes from ages ago first (on the chance I still have them).

Saint-Simon, iirc, was quite technocratic in his view on how society should be run, as was Owen (but to a lesser extent). Saint-Simon was also recognised as one of the fathers of socialism by Stalin.

As in "As each of us was several, that already made quite a few people"?

The very same. Was wondering if anybody would pick up on it. ;)

The very same. Was wondering if anybody would pick up on it. ;)

I've been here over a year and only one other person has seemed to know what my name means (a nation called Zizekia).

Have to start a D&G thread one of these days and see what the kids make of it all...

I look forward to it.

Have to start a D&G thread one of these days and see what the kids make of it all...
They'd probably think you were talking about Dolce & Gabbana.

They'd probably think you were talking about Dolce & Gabbana.

Indeed.

Forgive me, but what is D&G?

I didn't even get the Dolce and Gabana thing.

Forgive me, but what is D&G?

I didn't even get the Dolce and Gabana thing.

Deleuze & Guattari - french philosophers who are probably best known for their works Antu-Oedipus and A Thousand Plateaus: Capitalism And Schizophrenia. They're... well... different to just about anything else you might have come across in that field. They belong in roughly the same kind of corner of the field as Foucault, Virilio and Baudrillard, but don't really take a lead from any of them (personally I think they are closest to Virilio at times, but that may just be me).

The following two wikiopedia entries I have no real dispute with, but they fail to convey the style in which they operate and write:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felix_Guattari
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilles_Deleuze

Here is an example of some of their writing (an exert from a longer piece, although that is not immediately apparent looking at the page)

http://legacy.centenary.edu/~balexand/rhizome/history.html


***
To explain the Dolce & Gabbana thing: Deleuze & Guattari are often refered to as D&G... as are the clothes designers that plaster the letters D&G all over their products, Dolce & Gabbana.

Deleuze & Guattari - french philosophers who are probably best known for their works Antu-Oedipus and A Thousand Plateaus: Capitalism And Schizophrenia. They're... well... different to just about anything else you might have come across in that field. They belong in roughly the same kind of corner of the field as Foucault, Virilio and Baudrillard, but don't really take a lead from any of them (personally I think they are closest to Virilio at times, but that may just be me).

The following two wikiopedia entries I have no real dispute with, but they fail to convey the style in which they operate and write:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felix_Guattari
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilles_Deleuze

Here is an example of some of their writing (an exert from a longer piece, although that is not immediately apparent looking at the page)

http://legacy.centenary.edu/~balexand/rhizome/history.html

Thanks for that.


***
To explain the Dolce & Gabbana thing: Deleuze & Guattari are often refered to as D&G... as are the clothes designers that plaster the letters D&G all over their products, Dolce & Gabbana.
I know that, I meant I didn't immediatly make the connection between D&G and Dolce and Gabbana.

Marx and Ingels.
Thats what I would have said...Isn't it Engels though?

Thats what I would have said...Isn't it Engels though?

I'm not a socialist, but I would have said the same - and yes, it is Engels.