NationStates Jolt Archive

The title pretty much sums up the thread. I personally believe that there are a large number of problems with the prison system in America today, especially the way a large number of our elected representatives seem to believe that its purpose is vengeance. Non-Americans are welcome to discuss the penal systems in their own country ... I'm easy.

Its purposes should be to dissuade people from crime and make victims feel that justice has been done. I'm in favour of shorter sentences but harsher conditions, as it makes it a LOT cheaper. For example, a burglar/shoplifter/car thief: Instead of 3 years in an adequatly fitted out cell with a radio and nice food, try six months working 12 hours a day breaking rocks, with poor yet nutritionally adequate food. Or maybe even doing something that actually benefits society, like slave labour for the government.

Its purposes should be to dissuade people from crime and make victims feel that justice has been done. I'm in favour of shorter sentences but harsher conditions, as it makes it a LOT cheaper. For example, a burglar/shoplifter/car thief: Instead of 3 years in an adequatly fitted out cell with a radio and nice food, try six months working 12 hours a day breaking rocks, with poor yet nutritionally adequate food. Or maybe even doing something that actually benefits society, like slave labour for the government.
Thats a pretty good idea actually. I reckon most western nations eg USA, the UK(where i am!) etc are too interested in the rights of the criminals, and there's no incentive to avoid prison

Prisons put people who smoke pot with other criminals. When they get out of prison, they have absorbed the influence of numerous worse criminals.

I think punishment. Prisons should not have running water, doctors, good food, heat or a/c,and definitly no beds. They should work be forced to stay awake 20 hours a day and work 12 of them, give them one very thin blanket to sleep those 4 hours on. Have no t.v. or privledges. Make jail such a horrible place no one wants to go there. Also do not have private cells just throw about 20 into a room.

I think punishment. Prisons should not have running water, doctors, good food, heat or a/c,and definitly no beds. They should work be forced to stay awake 20 hours a day and work 12 of them, give them one very thin blanket to sleep those 4 hours on. Have no t.v. or privledges. Make jail such a horrible place no one wants to go there. Also do not have private cells just throw about 20 into a room.

Why not just have work-camps like in Siberia? It'd be even more cheaper than brick buildings.

Thats a pretty good idea actually. I reckon most western nations eg USA, the UK(where i am!) etc are too interested in the rights of the criminals, and there's no incentive to avoid prison

Ya, I know :D

I'm British too. Since the police and courts do nothing, there is a vigilante group in my area now, which has drove a lot of criminals out of the villiage. The police know who they are, but don't do anything because they know that they are doing a good job. The last dealer we had got a broken wrist and was bound, gagged and dumped in a ditch. He was found the next morning and taken to hospital but was alright after a few days. He has since moved down to Birmingham.

This is not a good way to go. The government needs to drops its petty liberal concern for the rights of criminals and go with the populists before someone ends up getting killed, which is NOT what I'd like to see.

I think punishment. Prisons should not have running water, doctors, good food, heat or a/c,and definitly no beds. They should work be forced to stay awake 20 hours a day and work 12 of them, give them one very thin blanket to sleep those 4 hours on. Have no t.v. or privledges. Make jail such a horrible place no one wants to go there. Also do not have private cells just throw about 20 into a room.

Thats a pretty good idea actually. I reckon most western nations eg USA, the UK(where i am!) etc are too interested in the rights of the criminals, and there's no incentive to avoid prison

Questions: by significantly raising the possibility of death in prison, doesn't that mean that one's sentence becomes essentially unrelated to one's crime? For example, a man steals a loaf of bread and is sentenced to a month in jail. He catches pneumonia there because it's the middle of winter and there's neither central heating nor even decent blankets. Because there are no doctors, he dies. Therefor, he has been sentenced to death over stealing a loaf of bread.
And what about innocent prisoners? The criminal justice system is far from infallible, and innocent people can easily find themselves in jail. That's bad enough, but by making jail a virtual death sentence doesn't that mean that citizens have no "freedom from fear" of death? Arbitrarily killing one's citizens tends to get one invaded by other countries ...
Furthermore, what *about* prisoner's rights? Just because you make a mistake, does that mean you're no longer human? And what if one genuinely disagrees with a law? It's been argued before that if a law goes against your conscience, you have the duty as a human being to disobey it. According to your rules, all the passive resistors who eventually managed to get the Jim Crow laws repealed would have instead suffered in prison after their first offense - because, after all, they *did* break the law. And now, let's say that someone is arrested for torturing his next-door neighbors. He's thrown in jail and tortured too. That's two wrongs trying to make a right. Does being a prison warden give you the right to do things that would be considered crimes outside the prison system?

and there's no incentive to avoid prison

the fuck there isn't.

prisons are a crime against humanity. and they just plain don't work. unless you accept foucault's analysis - then they appear to be doing wonderfully.

Why not just have work-camps like in Siberia? It'd be even more cheaper than brick buildings.



Ya, I know :D

I'm British too. Since the police and courts do nothing, there is a vigilante group in my area now, which has drove a lot of criminals out of the villiage. The police know who they are, but don't do anything because they know that they are doing a good job. The last dealer we had got a broken wrist and was bound, gagged and dumped in a ditch. He was found the next morning and taken to hospital but was alright after a few days. He has since moved down to Birmingham.

This is not a good way to go. The government needs to drops its petty liberal concern for the rights of criminals and go with the populists before someone ends up getting killed, which is NOT what I'd like to see.
Hmm, i went to York recently and didn't see vigilantes roaming the streets, attacking drug sellers etc. Ah well, some people have all the fun. :)

I reckon we could just send them all to some remote island that we took from France/Spain/[insert nation here] a few hundred years ago that everyone's forgotten about (like America lol ;) ) and leave em there. Cut down the trees so they cant build boats and you're sorted

Questions: by significantly raising the possibility of death in prison, doesn't that mean that one's sentence becomes essentially unrelated to one's crime? For example, a man steals a loaf of bread and is sentenced to a month in jail. He catches pneumonia there because it's the middle of winter and there's neither central heating nor even decent blankets. Because there are no doctors, he dies. Therefor, he has been sentenced to death over stealing a loaf of bread.
And what about innocent prisoners? The criminal justice system is far from infallible, and innocent people can easily find themselves in jail. That's bad enough, but by making jail a virtual death sentence doesn't that mean that citizens have no "freedom from fear" of death? Arbitrarily killing one's citizens tends to get one invaded by other countries ...
Furthermore, what *about* prisoner's rights? Just because you make a mistake, does that mean you're no longer human? And what if one genuinely disagrees with a law? It's been argued before that if a law goes against your conscience, you have the duty as a human being to disobey it. According to your rules, all the passive resistors who eventually managed to get the Jim Crow laws repealed would have instead suffered in prison after their first offense - because, after all, they *did* break the law. And now, let's say that someone is arrested for torturing his next-door neighbors. He's thrown in jail and tortured too. That's two wrongs trying to make a right. Does being a prison warden give you the right to do things that would be considered crimes outside the prison system?
Well ok, maybe only have the most shocking and brutal treatment for rapists, paedophiles, serial killers etc, leave the 'cushy treatment' for the petty offenders

There was a situation in Florida, the man was on his 4th offense or 5th of charges on sexual offences. When he was let out for the last time because the people thought he had been "Reformed" He raped and killed a 12 year old girl. Also their was a case where a man attempted to shoot his wife and after taking this to court he got away with 10 months probation because they truly thought he has changed. After his probation he caught up with his wife in a minivan with another family He shot and killed her and another wounding one more infront of a police station. Punishment is what keeps us safe from people like them. And also who is it for the people that run there facilities to decided they are reformed enough to live among us?
Punishment in my opinion is the only safe choice.

Siberia? Thats expensive send them to Alaska, and make them drill for oil. Make them live in barracks with gaurd towers, and barbed wire. No one in the right mind would sneak out at night anyway. If they do... :sniper:

There was a situation in Florida, the man was on his 4th offense or 5th of charges on sexual offences. When he was let out for the last time because the people thought he had been "Reformed" He raped and killed a 12 year old girl. Also their was a case where a man attempted to shoot his wife and after taking this to court he got away with 10 months probation because they truly thought he has changed. After his probation he caught up with his wife in a minivan with another family He shot and killed her and another wounding one more infront of a police station. Punishment is what keeps us safe from people like them. And also who is it for the people that run there facilities to decided they are reformed enough to live among us?
Punishment in my opinion is the only safe choice.

All this talk of punishment makes me think that BDSM may have roots in our authoritarian society.

It would be better if we had old west law. Have a judge, jury, and executioner in a mob.

I'm reminded of the three styles of parenting: 1) Authoritarian, where you make the rules, enforce them strictly, make no exceptions, and refuse to explain your reasoning. 2) Authoritative, where you explain why you made the rules and why life wouldn't work without them, enforce them consistently, and try to make an effort why people break the rules. 3) Relaxed, where you make as few rules as possible, enforce them irregularly, and generally allow people to do whatever. The second is considered the best parenting style; the third often creates uncertain and codependent people, and first tends to create violent, bitter, and generally mindless people. Which one do you think our penal system corresponds to?

3! 3! The American penal system is too slack. We shove them in stone buildings and make them stay there for a number of years. We should make them do useful things that help soceity, or make each and every day a living Hell for them.

It would be better if we had old west law. Have a judge, jury, and executioner in a mob.

yes, because there certainly wasn't any crime in the old west.

the question of crime shouldn't be about what sort of treatment best fulfills your revenge fantasies, but what can we do to deal with criminal behavior. public torture doesn't work. mob justice doesn't work. prison doesn't work.

Exactly! Ideally, the point is to get rid of crime with still allowing people freedom of choice. (i.e., don't just brainwash everyone into begin robots and never doing anything wrong again). Prison doesn't do that. If anything, mixing a bunch of criminals together only produces additional crime and the mindset of a "criminal class." The majority of the people who have posted on this thread want the penal system to be vengeance-focused: you broke one of our laws, now we're going to screw you 'til you're black and blue. Not only does that often mean that criminals never even get a *chance* to try again, this means that the penal system is slowly being turned into a punishment-minded system, losing sight of its original purpose.

With the exception of murder, terrorism, and corporate fraud on an Enron scale:

I say that the prisons be reformed so that only a small portion of the sentence is toward punishment - the most time should be spent rehabilitating the prisoner to make them acceptible in society again

Hmm, i went to York recently and didn't see vigilantes roaming the streets, attacking drug sellers etc. Ah well, some people have all the fun.

York's pretty good for crime-free living really, but if you go out into the suburbs and the outlying smalltowns/largevilliages it becomes desperate. Besides, its not gangs of vigilantes, just 4 masked men in a white transit van. It helps create a lively fear among the criminal element :D

Its the end, not the means, as I always say.

According to your rules, all the passive resistors who eventually managed to get the Jim Crow laws repealed would have instead suffered in prison after their first offense - because, after all, they *did* break the law.

I don't know what the Jim Crow laws are, but I have petitioned my MP on a number of occasions to stop supporting the proposed ban on fox-hunting (but that is for another thread). If you don't agree with a law, then you either make sure you don't get caught or you try and get the law over turned by good old fashioned campaigning (without breaking the law). Either that or you leave the country.

Prison should be aimed at rehabilitating offenders not punishing them (should be - not is in many places). Criminal behaviour is by definition anti social and you do not teach people how to cooperate and participate constructively by punishing them.

Why not just have work-camps like in Siberia? It'd be even more cheaper than brick buildings.

This is outlawed by United Nations Convention.