NationStates Jolt Archive

America has lost the will to fight.

There I said it, what are you going to do about it?

We have lost almost a thousand men in Iraq and everyone is crying that it is time to bring the boys home. What happened to the resolve and patriotism that we all had after 9/11/2001?

More than 10,000 men died in the space of an hour at Cold Harbor, Virginia 1864. Approximately 600,000 men died in the American Civil War, more than in the Revolutionary War, Mexican War, WW1, and WW2 combined.

Tens of thousands died fighting for the freedom of the world on one morning June 6, 1944.

America is the greatest country in the world with the most freedom both politically and economically of any country in the history of the world. But we would rather surrender it all because oh it must be our fault that Islamic murderers are hijacking our planes to hit our skyscrapers.

Whether anybody wants to realize it or not this war on terror is a religious and cultural war. It is not the Cold War where we could just wait the other side out. The people who are attacking us would rather see us all dead than have us enjoy our freedom. And we worry about whether we are causing more terror by going over there and attacking them.

Newsflash: What about Beirut? What about the first World Trade Center bombing? What about the bombings of the US embassies in East Africa? What about Mogadishu? What about the attack on the USS Cole? Correct me if I'm wrong but those events happened before Afghanistan and Iraq were freed from their oppressive regimes.

If it were me running a news station I would show more video from the morning of 9/11/2001. I would show the planes flying into the buildings because people need to be reminded of what happened that morning because it seems a lot of people have forgotten.

It is either that or face another horrific day like 9/11/2001. And we will have another day like that if we don't step up to the plate and defend our freedom from those who would deny it from us like our forefathers.

We have lost almost a thousand men in Iraq and everyone is crying that it is time to bring the boys home. I agree the worst thing you could do is pull out now

America is the greatest country in the world with the most freedom both politically and economically of any country in the history of the world.I strongly disagree

But we would rather surrender it all because oh it must be our fault that Islamic murderers are hijacking our planes to hit our skyscrapers.
Yes it is things that have happend in the past made those people turn to terrorism

Whether anybody wants to realize it or not this war on terror is a religious and cultural war. It is not the Cold War where we could just wait the other side out. The people who are attacking us would rather see us all dead than have us enjoy our freedom. And we worry about whether we are causing more terror by going over there and attacking them.
sounds like you want a crusade against the arabs. If you are attacking them you are not only causeing terror there you are making the sirvivors hate America and with good reason

If it were me running a news station I would show more video from the morning of 9/11/2001. I would show the planes flying into the buildings because people need to be reminded of what happened that morning because it seems a lot of people have forgotten.
Great idea that is why not show pictures of consintation camps to jews. Terrible things happen in the middle east nearly every day!

It is either that or face another horrific day like 9/11/2001. And we will have another day like that if we don't step up to the plate and defend our freedom from those who would deny it from us like our forefathers.
That is probably true

Speaking as a European (just so you know where I'm coming from), I still see a lot of Americans defending their current politics, so to say you have all lost the will to fight sounds a little too simplistic to me. I think there are lots of Americans who are willing to fight.

Questioning the war in Iraq, if that's what you're referring to, is not the same as giving up the fight itself. I don't see anybody questioning your efforts in Afghanistan, where the real terrorists are. Quite the contrary, in fact.

Having the will to fight doesn't mean you're willing to fight any fight, anytime, anywhere for no reason.

D-Day was not in 1941, but I assume that was a typo.

America being the greatest country on earth is a matter of opinion. You are entitled to yours.

Yes, America is losing the will to fight. Unfortunately, I can't say the same of our enemies. The only viable solution is Fascism. A strong military government is the best way to put down the peaceniks, flag burners, and protesters. This is why we rounded up 'dissenters' during WWI. They only further divide and demoralize our country and strengthen our enemy's resolve.

America is the greatest country in the world with the most freedom both politically and economically of any country in the history of the world.
"Greatest"? Totally subjective. 'Most politically free' - absolutely incorrect. 'Most economically free' - I'm sure the libertarians will disagree. How about Costa Rica? Ireland?

If it were me running a news station I would show more video from the morning of 9/11/2001. I would show the planes flying into the buildings because people need to be reminded of what happened that morning because it seems a lot of people have forgotten.
While you're at it, please show all of the murders and outrages perpetrated by extremists and thugs and cynical manipulators of international and national affairs. Please show us the victims of dictators and regimes propped up by Western governments, of crippling and unjustified economic sanctions imposed by the West and of economic doctrines enforced by Western nations that wouldn't dream of subjecting themselves to such deprivation and asset-stripping. Make sure the public sees the results of Christian fundamentalism - show us the Oklahoma bombings.

How about being 'fair and balanced'?

if it were me running a news station I would show more video from the morning of 9/11/2001. I would show the planes flying into the buildings because people need to be reminded of what happened that morning because it seems a lot of people have forgotten. Just realised what has that got to do with Iraq. Maybe If everyone in America was saying terrorists dont exist would I ever show that again and again

While you're at it, please show all of the murders and outrages perpetrated by extremists and thugs and cynical manipulators of international and national affairs. Please show us the victims of dictators and regimes propped up by Western governments, of crippling and unjustified economic sanctions imposed by the West and of economic doctrines enforced by Western nations that wouldn't dream of subjecting themselves to such deprivation and asset-stripping. Make sure the public sees the results of Christian fundamentalism - show us the Oklahoma bombings.

How about being 'fair and balanced'?

From what I understand McVeigh was a sympathizer with the wacko down in Waco, can't remember his name right now and he was a certainly not a Christian. He took Christian beliefs and twisted them into something that totally un-Christian.

But that is not the point and you are trying to hijack the thread. The point is that Americans have lost their resolve and will to fight when we give free reign to those who would rather give up the fight, i.e. democrats. And don't say that Democrats don't want to give up the fight, cause Kerry just said he will bring the boys home in six months or something like that. Thats the perfect plan, let the terrorist know when we're going to pull it out, then they'll lay low until we pull out and then cause all the havoc they want when we leave.

The only viable solution is Fascism.

I hope that was sarcasm.

I'm afraid it was serious.

America is the greatest country in the world
Dream on.

And don't say that Democrats don't want to give up the fight, cause Kerry just said he will bring the boys home in six months or something like that.

Focusing your efforts on the people who were really behind 911, instead of those the Bush family has a personal vendetta with, is hardly giving up the fight.

But that is not the point and you are trying to hijack the thread.
By saying his opinion about what you said???!!!

From what I understand McVeigh was a sympathizer with the wacko down in Waco, can't remember his name right now and he was a certainly not a Christian. He took Christian beliefs and twisted them into something that totally un-Christian.
Y'know, could Islamic fundamentalists be doing a similar thing? Just a thought...

But that is not the point and you are trying to hijack the thread. The point is that Americans have lost their resolve and will to fight when we give free reign to those who would rather give up the fight, i.e. democrats. And don't say that Democrats don't want to give up the fight, cause Kerry just said he will bring the boys home in six months or something like that. Thats the perfect plan, let the terrorist know when we're going to pull it out, then they'll lay low until we pull out and then cause all the havoc they want when we leave.
Apologies for the 'hijack', I simply didn't want to let you off the hook for some statements I found absurd. Anyhow, do you not feel that continuing violence against Muslims may anger moderates who will then be more vulnerable to extremists' propaganda, thus accentuating Islam vs USA feeling?

Yes, America is losing the will to fight. Unfortunately, I can't say the same of our enemies. The only viable solution is Fascism. A strong military government is the best way to put down the peaceniks, flag burners, and protesters. This is why we rounded up 'dissenters' during WWI. They only further divide and demoralize our country and strengthen our enemy's resolve.

Yeah, fascism will make everyone happy, look what it did for Germany! What a good idea. Let's defend our freedoms by removing every single one of them! Your logic is irrefutable, because everyone knows that the world will unite against a peaceful country, but will willingly cooperate with a fascist, warmongering state! God, how could I have been so naive!

Yes, America is losing the will to fight. Unfortunately, I can't say the same of our enemies. The only viable solution is Fascism. A strong military government is the best way to put down the peaceniks, flag burners, and protesters. This is why we rounded up 'dissenters' during WWI. They only further divide and demoralize our country and strengthen our enemy's resolve.

That's right. defend your freedoms by abandoning them for a form of government guaranteed to produce corruption, internal mass-murder and abject failure within a generation.

Hey, Unashamed Christians -- how do you feel about having this guy on your side? If you ask me he's giving the decent right-wing nutjobs a bad name.

We have lost almost a thousand men in Iraq and everyone is crying that it is time to bring the boys home. What happened to the resolve and patriotism that we all had after 9/11/2001? Iraq had no link to 9/11.

Why are you trying to justify a war against a secular regime by invoking acts committed by Islamic fundementalists?

The problem with Fascists here is that they only image being the supreme leader
and not the opressed rest of the people

Yes, America is losing the will to fight. Unfortunately, I can't say the same of our enemies. The only viable solution is Fascism. A strong military government is the best way to put down the peaceniks, flag burners, and protesters. This is why we rounded up 'dissenters' during WWI. They only further divide and demoralize our country and strengthen our enemy's resolve. Don't you get it?

By invading Iraq, Bush has created more terrorism. His 'war on terror' has become counter-productive.

Anyhow, do you not feel that continuing violence against Muslims may anger moderates who will then be more vulnerable to extremists' propaganda, thus accentuating Islam vs USA feeling?

Has this 'war' been anything but Islam vs. USA?


Unashamed Christians - So.. looks like you want a crusade against the Muslim community.. should I start building my nuclear shelter and training my sons to wield rifles??

The problem with Fascists here is that they only image being the supreme leader
and not the opressed rest of the people

Ah, all too true. Every little poisoned one of them thinks that they'd be in a smart uniform (black, natch) with cool skull-and-crossbones badges, and all the girls would fancy them and if they didn't they could have them shot. Sadly, most of them would probably end up like the brownshirts, encountering the wrong end of a long knife when they suddenly found out what happens when you unleash murderous insanity on a national scale.

Don't you get it?

By invading Iraq, Bush has created more terrorism. His 'war on terror' has become counter-productive.
I'm sure hid friends in the arms and oil industry think it was a stunning succes. I can only imagine how much money they make with increased terrorist threats and an everincreasing miltary budget.

Don't you get it?

By invading Iraq, Bush has created more terrorism. His 'war on terror' has become counter-productive.

unfortunately, those Bushies who have become thoroughly indoctrinated can only distinguish black and white. To them, the world consists of "us" and "all them dark skinned fellers."

Trying to explain the difference between a secular Middle East dictatorship and a fundamentalist Islam movement evokes the same cocked head and glassy stare you get when trying to explain tax code to a cocker spaniel.

From what I understand McVeigh was a sympathizer with the wacko down in Waco, can't remember his name right now and he was a certainly not a Christian. He took Christian beliefs and twisted them into something that totally un-Christian.

His name is David Koresh and he believed he was the second coming.

America has lost the will to fight.

There I said it, what are you going to do about it?

We have lost almost a thousand men in Iraq and everyone is crying that it is time to bring the boys home. What happened to the resolve and patriotism that we all had after 9/11/2001?

More than 10,000 men died in the space of an hour at Cold Harbor, Virginia 1864. Approximately 600,000 men died in the American Civil War, more than in the Revolutionary War, Mexican War, WW1, and WW2 combined.

Tens of thousands died fighting for the freedom of the world on one morning June 6, 1944.

America is the greatest country in the world with the most freedom both politically and economically of any country in the history of the world. But we would rather surrender it all because oh it must be our fault that Islamic murderers are hijacking our planes to hit our skyscrapers.

Whether anybody wants to realize it or not this war on terror is a religious and cultural war. It is not the Cold War where we could just wait the other side out. The people who are attacking us would rather see us all dead than have us enjoy our freedom. And we worry about whether we are causing more terror by going over there and attacking them.

Newsflash: What about Beirut? What about the first World Trade Center bombing? What about the bombings of the US embassies in East Africa? What about Mogadishu? What about the attack on the USS Cole? Correct me if I'm wrong but those events happened before Afghanistan and Iraq were freed from their oppressive regimes.

If it were me running a news station I would show more video from the morning of 9/11/2001. I would show the planes flying into the buildings because people need to be reminded of what happened that morning because it seems a lot of people have forgotten.

It is either that or face another horrific day like 9/11/2001. And we will have another day like that if we don't step up to the plate and defend our freedom from those who would deny it from us like our forefathers.
There are around 300 million too many americans. I suggest you drop a few nukes on your own country to rid the world of the american scourge. Thank you.

You think America has become gutless? Are you crazy? If the president of any other country pulled off this war, they would be calling for his head. In any other country, when you lie to the public you get impeached. In any other administration, when you lie to the public you get impeached.

Why don't you remember Vietnam? Was it a justified war? Not really. And it taught Americans that we won't fight the fights that others need to fight themselves.

That's why we don't like 1000 casualties. It reminds us too much of Vietnam.

Yeah, fascism will make everyone happy, look what it did for Germany! What a good idea. Let's defend our freedoms by removing every single one of them! Your logic is irrefutable, because everyone knows that the world will unite against a peaceful country, but will willingly cooperate with a fascist, warmongering state! God, how could I have been so naive!

You're thiking of Nazism. I'm talking about Fascism, which saved Italy from Communism, the Great Depression, and made a military world power out of a wartorn country before Italy sided with Germany. Fascism isn't about taking away your rights, it's about putting the States ability to make effective and quick decisions before the selfish civil liberties of a few. Democracy and liberal individualism are about everyone going off and doing what they want and being divided. Fascism and collectivsm are about Unity! Most Fascist are closer to isoationists...even Mussolini was at first.

The problem with Fascists here is that they only image being the supreme leader
and not the opressed rest of the people

Fascism doesn't neccesarily mean "One Leader." It's about people uniting for the good of a country. A Fascist State can be lead by a Grand Council chosen out of Meritocracy.

It is threads like this that make people see the NS Gerneral Forum and want to build a fence around it to keep the dangerous inside.
Really, so many people who violently hate each other in one place has to be bad for something. Something cute like hamsters or squirrels even.
Please people, don't drink and post.

Still thats to much power they can be very effective if you happen to think exactly like the government. Free speach is normaly say what you want but then ill kill/punish you under fascism

We are our own worst enemy world over alike.

Now we have consumed so much, last 50 years the total accumulated amount of resources in history, we are at the end of this "freedom" to choose the colour or model of transportation.

The end of 80 % fish, forest, materials.

The end of our wealth and the super wealthy driving the best wheels.
The end of cheap oil, airplane tickets, cheap food, fresh water, clean air.
The end of our capital, dominions overseas
The end of our kings, CEO, dynasty
The end of easy living for the top 20%, mostly westernworlders.

So as always and based on 10 millennia of history, this Titanic ship of fools is going to go down with tonnes, billions of people.

Now we indulged so much in our greed, fear and other forms of importance, we are standing at the brink of disaster and we dug this hole ourselves nobody else.

We allowed idiots to rule, we allowed persons to be Billionaires.

Lots of our southern world places already into civil war, starving, raping, murdering like our current occupied countries.

First the weak, old, poor, addicts when squeezing to elimination healthcare, education and other services.
Then us the peasant workers with and without tie will either stay put be killed, used efficiently or some few start work together locally and self sufficient, the elite will fortify with fences, private army gangs but finally go down from misery and some from hateful bullets.

I think all the hate and aggression now lying underneath a pleasant face and talk will be open and directed everywhere including power elite.
Past few generations of being thought by mass media, self fulfilling you can make it, more, more, better, better, faster, faster, and so on has not made us happier and we made huge debts with the financial ones the easiest to pay back.

We got storm coming so stop your internal talk on the freedom you are selling, be honest and realize that the acts and effects of your dictatorship with that Fujiwaraeffect (two bipartisan double Bushwhacking hits like current Jeb Bush Miami 15 Billion disaster, rare almost unheard of) are perfectly similar to every megalomania we have seen before, The Romans too, were simply to fat and indulged to realise their danger.

The intensity, path of movement caught many people by surprise.

Let me warn you, the next war will be your own, at your door, visible from your car, just think about what to do when air co stops, shops close, petrol only for homeland defence transport, stand in line for bread, talk to someone with a gun before getting what you really need: fresh or at least potable water.

You want proof just look at the damage the single engine something made in precious Pentagon or find out the scope of our collective total damage to our environment.

Strange weather these days.

But that is not the point and you are trying to hijack the thread. The point is that Americans have lost their resolve and will to fight when we give free reign to those who would rather give up the fight, i.e. democrats. And don't say that Democrats don't want to give up the fight, cause Kerry just said he will bring the boys home in six months or something like that. Thats the perfect plan, let the terrorist know when we're going to pull it out, then they'll lay low until we pull out and then cause all the havoc they want when we leave.

Sounds a lot like Spain to me...

Anyway the one correction I'd make to your original statement is that it's really the entire world that's lost its resolve. I don't think the problem is confined to America, although we certainly see it here. To me, the decline in the U.S. started after World War II, and I mainly hold the conflict over Vietnam responsible (note NOT the people who fought there). I don't think that as a country we have ever truly healed from that one.

Fascism doesn't neccesarily mean "One Leader." It's about people uniting for the good of a country. A Fascist State can be lead by a Grand Council chosen out of Meritocracy.

Unfortunately, it would be a "meritocracy" that judged people more by the colour of their skins or their religion or political views than by any actual merit. It would be a meritocracy run by people who have no achievements to be proud of, who have never done anything worthwhile, and who are really just consuming oxygen that could be better used elsewhere. Because of this crippling lack of talent or achievement, they are reduced to trying to take "pride" in their ethnic origins or the hue of their epidermis. One might as well take pride in the size of one's feet.

Unfortunately, it would be a "meritocracy" that judged people more by the colour of their skins or their religion or political views than by any actual merit.

Following me eh. Are you under the impression that I am a Nazi. I most certaintly am not.

America has lost the will to fight.

As an American, I have to strongly disagree with this statement. America has, for the most part, not lost the "will to fight." Even Kerry hasn't per se lost the will to fight, he's just itching for other fights.

One of the biggest problems is that this is an "absolute" war. Not in terms of how it is being fought, but in terms of how it is being reported. Absolute numbers is a problem to more things than causalties, look at the reporting for Gas Prices in the past few months in the US. They hit, it was said, record highs ... while either putting those important words "unadjusted for inflation" in either the legal small print or forgetting them alltogether.

People died in Iraq. Before you think about what you are going to do about it, consider how many people died in automobile accidents in the same period. Consider how many people died because of tobacco. Consider how many lives were torn limb from limb by the procedure known as "abortion."

Absolute numbers, without context, while being the stuff of modern news reporting are in fact meaningless, and any poll results from those numbers are likewise meaningless. Given that, there is some general resolve (or lack thereof) that is appearing in the general American public.

I think there is a growing belief that the use and re-use of what was supposed to be part time forces (the national guard) is having a very deep impact on the home front, and could perhaps cause long term problems in our military force levels, and abusing them short term is going to have long term reprocussions.

I think there is a growing belief that we need more buy in by the Iraqis, in order to win the peace in Iraq. This is starting to happen. We don't need more US forces per se (because the enemy simply retreats to where we can't go) and we don't need international forces (because the enemy simply captures another hostage ... talk about loosing will it's not US) but we need Iraqi forces who won't allow the enemy to descrate their own holy places, and won't allow back talk from a minor religious leader who opposes the greater will of the other religious leaders.

America has lost the will to fight.

There I said it, what are you going to do about it?

We have lost almost a thousand men in Iraq and everyone is crying that it is time to bring the boys home. What happened to the resolve and patriotism that we all had after 9/11/2001?

More than 10,000 men died in the space of an hour at Cold Harbor, Virginia 1864. Approximately 600,000 men died in the American Civil War, more than in the Revolutionary War, Mexican War, WW1, and WW2 combined.

Tens of thousands died fighting for the freedom of the world on one morning June 6, 1944.

America is the greatest country in the world with the most freedom both politically and economically of any country in the history of the world. But we would rather surrender it all because oh it must be our fault that Islamic murderers are hijacking our planes to hit our skyscrapers.

Whether anybody wants to realize it or not this war on terror is a religious and cultural war. It is not the Cold War where we could just wait the other side out. The people who are attacking us would rather see us all dead than have us enjoy our freedom. And we worry about whether we are causing more terror by going over there and attacking them.

Newsflash: What about Beirut? What about the first World Trade Center bombing? What about the bombings of the US embassies in East Africa? What about Mogadishu? What about the attack on the USS Cole? Correct me if I'm wrong but those events happened before Afghanistan and Iraq were freed from their oppressive regimes.

If it were me running a news station I would show more video from the morning of 9/11/2001. I would show the planes flying into the buildings because people need to be reminded of what happened that morning because it seems a lot of people have forgotten.

It is either that or face another horrific day like 9/11/2001. And we will have another day like that if we don't step up to the plate and defend our freedom from those who would deny it from us like our forefathers.
Maybe you should sign up, and perhaps you can pick off one or two more Iraqis before anymore hatch?

What edition of the Bible do you use?

America is the greatest country in the world with the most freedom both politically and economically of any country in the history of the world.

Whether anybody wants to realize it or not this war on terror is a religious and cultural war. It is not the Cold War where we could just wait the other side out. The people who are attacking us would rather see us all dead than have us enjoy our freedom. And we worry about whether we are causing more terror by going over there and attacking them.
I really don't think that a suffocating two-party system constitutes the greatest level of political freedom.

It's not a religious war. In fact, IMO it's not a war at all. It's an issue of global crime. Severe crime that deserves harsh punishment, yes, but it's not exactly WW2.

If I had to pick to choose to live through the war on terror or the cold war, I would choose the war on terror every time. Now you have a miniscule risk of being killed or injured in a relatively small attack. Then you had the threat of nuclear annihilation.

Yes, we worry, because the people the US army attacked are not the people who planned and executed attacks on the USA.

You have a few, umm, misconceptions I think. But then you are the same guy who said that "liberals think insects are better than humans" (to paraphrase).

P.S. If you are concerned that your country no longer wants to fight, join the army yourself.

Tens of thousands died fighting for the freedom of the world on one morning June 6, 1944.


Nope, around 8 or 9 thousand died in all. And The USSR won the War anyway.

Just to clarify for some people that don't understand...

Nazism is an ideology.
Facism is a government.
Capitalism is an economy.
Nazi Germany was all three of these things, however a Facist state is not inherently a Nazi state.

Maybe you should sign up, and perhaps you can pick off one or two more Iraqis before anymore hatch?

What edition of the Bible do you use? I was under the impression the bible condemns killing.

Isn't it ironic that these so-called christians are the biggest warmongerers?

I was under the impression the bible condemns killing.

Isn't it ironic that these so-called christians are the biggest warmongerers?

Actually, in both the Christian and Jewish traditionsl, war has been acceptable in the cases of self defense or when a nation is in the position to assist the opppressed. In World War II, both conditions were present, so that is generally viewed as a "just" war.

The dispute over Iraq, then, is centered on whether a threat existed to the U.S. which justified an attack and/or whether or not the Iraqi government was so oppressive to its own people or neighbors that a damn well deserved to get invaded.

America has lost the will to fight.


I don't think the US or the rest of the world has lost the will to fight. If the war is just and necessary it will be fought, like it is being fought in Afghanistan, as is being prepared in Sudan.

The problem is that a lot of people in the States simply don't see the war in Iraq as just or necessary. Most of the world certainly didn't see it that way. And the more time goes by, the more unjust and unnecessary it seems.

So, in your place I wouldn't worry.

I am afraid to say this, under fear that you guys will call me a warmongering Christian racist republican capitalist facist, but its human nature to fight wars. Its as easy for us to stop fighting as it is for us to stop breathing. And when america loses the will to fight, we are in serious problems. fortunatly, that day is not upon us. Unfortunatly, the American people are under the impression that we have this Aura of greatness and invulnerability.That is totaly false. The United States is the most powerful nation in the world, we are the ONLY superpower (dont deny it, Europeans. China is a great power, thats a step down from super). The American people have let this get to their head. They think "Well, we are super powerful and super rich, so if mroe than 100 soldiers die we are seriously screwed." They also dont want to step up to the responsibility of leading the world. Sure, our government does, but the people dont. Now that communism is (mostly) gone, we think that all great threats are gone. They dismiss Radical Islam as "A fight way over in the middle east." It is not. It is a worldwide battle. The main reason why the world hates the U.S. is because, surprise surprise, they think that we a driving up the price of oil. Thats ALL the world cares about, and for good reason too. Oil drives our entire lives. So if oil prices come up, the United States popularity goes down.

In other words, The United States hasnt lost the will to fight, its just lost the will to loose casualties. Now that the rest of the world sees our weaknes, they will no doubt pummel down any government that tries to correct that. The rest of the world is tired of being over shadowed by the United States which is the Greatest(in terms of Power) country ever(the Soviet union was strong, but then theres the whole buisiness of them loosing the cold war.) The former great nations mess try to put down everythign american. RAnging from our cars, to our laws, to our religion, to our Politics. This isnt a war of the U.S. against Radical Islam, in some ways its a war with the U.S. Against the World.Its almost as if its a Cold War beween the rest of the World and the U.S., and the war against Radical islam is the Korea of this new cold semi-war. If the war ever grew to actual fighting, then we all better just lay down and die, because World War three will literaly be the War to end all wars. It will end everything else too.

unfortunately, those Bushies who have become thoroughly indoctrinated can only distinguish black and white. To them, the world consists of "us" and "all them dark skinned fellers."

Trying to explain the difference between a secular Middle East dictatorship and a fundamentalist Islam movement evokes the same cocked head and glassy stare you get when trying to explain tax code to a cocker spaniel.

If you said this to me in real life, I would grab the nearest blunt object and beat you until I really opened your mind. You liberal a-holes preach acceptance and tolerance, but then you start slamming anyone who opposes your beliefs with cliche insults and generalizations. I have a lot of "Bushie" friends who realize that 9/11 is different from Iraq, and they sure as hell don't look "cock-headed and glassy-eyed" when we have political discussions. Pardon my hasty generalization, but it seems like every liberal-minded person I've met, whom I have as much respect for as a "Bushie" like myself, ridicule right-wingers like they were blind amoebas who only followed Bush because they're idiots. This may be true for some, but it's definitely true for Democrats too. My dad would follow Kerry into hell and back, just because he's a Democrat; not because of his views or beliefs, just 'cause he's a Democrat. And, by the way, about the "dark-skinned fellers" crack, I doubt you could tell an Iraqi from your own turd, you communist.

The point is that Americans have lost their resolve and will to fight when we give free reign to those who would rather give up the fight, i.e. democrats. And don't say that Democrats don't want to give up the fight, cause Kerry just said he will bring the boys home in six months or something like that. Thats the perfect plan, let the terrorist know when we're going to pull it out, then they'll lay low until we pull out and then cause all the havoc they want when we leave.

I'd like to see that "Kerry just said he will bring the boys home in six months" quote. Back it up if it he really said any such thing (and preferably in context).

If you said this to me in real life, I would grab the nearest blunt object and beat you until I really opened your mind. You liberal a-holes preach acceptance and tolerance, but then you start slamming anyone who opposes your beliefs with cliche insults and generalizations. I have a lot of "Bushie" friends who realize that 9/11 is different from Iraq, and they sure as hell don't look "cock-headed and glassy-eyed" when we have political discussions. Pardon my hasty generalization, but it seems like every liberal-minded person I've met, whom I have as much respect for as a "Bushie" like myself, ridicule right-wingers like they were blind amoebas who only followed Bush because they're idiots. This may be true for some, but it's definitely true for Democrats too. My dad would follow Kerry into hell and back, just because he's a Democrat; not because of his views or beliefs, just 'cause he's a Democrat. And, by the way, about the "dark-skinned fellers" crack, I doubt you could tell an Iraqi from your own turd, you communist.

Bravo

From what I understand McVeigh was a sympathizer with the wacko down in Waco, can't remember his name right now and he was a certainly not a Christian. He took Christian beliefs and twisted them into something that totally un-Christian.

But that is not the point and you are trying to hijack the thread. The point is that Americans have lost their resolve and will to fight when we give free reign to those who would rather give up the fight, i.e. democrats. And don't say that Democrats don't want to give up the fight, cause Kerry just said he will bring the boys home in six months or something like that. Thats the perfect plan, let the terrorist know when we're going to pull it out, then they'll lay low until we pull out and then cause all the havoc they want when we leave.


David Koresh and his branch davidian followers. Spelling on that.

I am afraid to say this, under fear that you guys will call me a warmongering Christian racist republican capitalist facist, but its human nature to fight wars. Its as easy for us to stop fighting as it is for us to stop breathing. And when america loses the will to fight, we are in serious problems. fortunatly, that day is not upon us. Unfortunatly, the American people are under the impression that we have this Aura of greatness and invulnerability.That is totaly false. The United States is the most powerful nation in the world, we are the ONLY superpower (dont deny it, Europeans. China is a great power, thats a step down from super). The American people have let this get to their head. They think "Well, we are super powerful and super rich, so if mroe than 100 soldiers die we are seriously screwed." They also dont want to step up to the responsibility of leading the world. Sure, our government does, but the people dont. Now that communism is (mostly) gone, we think that all great threats are gone. They dismiss Radical Islam as "A fight way over in the middle east." It is not. It is a worldwide battle. The main reason why the world hates the U.S. is because, surprise surprise, they think that we a driving up the price of oil. Thats ALL the world cares about, and for good reason too. Oil drives our entire lives. So if oil prices come up, the United States popularity goes down.

Sadly, this is true...I honestly feel that pacifism is entirely unfeasible if even one person refuses to subscribe to such a policy. When that happens, that one person will take advantage and slaughter all the rest--and this is why self-defense is necessary: because if you do so rationally, it can prevent even further slaughter. It is not that I enjoy fighting or anything, but I accept self-defense as a reason to do so. You might ask if I'd be willing to give my own life for that...yes, if ever there were a need. To be perfectly honest, I don't think the military would want me unless circumstances got dire, but if that ever came to pass, I'd do my part. I wouldn't enjoy it, but I'd do it.

In other words, The United States hasnt lost the will to fight, its just lost the will to loose casualties. Now that the rest of the world sees our weaknes, they will no doubt pummel down any government that tries to correct that. The rest of the world is tired of being over shadowed by the United States which is the Greatest(in terms of Power) country ever(the Soviet union was strong, but then theres the whole buisiness of them loosing the cold war.) The former great nations mess try to put down everythign american. RAnging from our cars, to our laws, to our religion, to our Politics. This isnt a war of the U.S. against Radical Islam, in some ways its a war with the U.S. Against the World.Its almost as if its a Cold War beween the rest of the World and the U.S., and the war against Radical islam is the Korea of this new cold semi-war. If the war ever grew to actual fighting, then we all better just lay down and die, because World War three will literaly be the War to end all wars. It will end everything else too.

I think the analogy between the current war and the Cold War is quite fitting, and sadly, I agree that we could very well wind up being annihilated if ever such a war goes hot...especially if a biological weapon is deployed.

After all, a virus doesn't care whose side you're on.

If you said this to me in real life, I would grab the nearest blunt object and beat you until I really opened your mind. You liberal a-holes preach acceptance and tolerance, but then you start slamming anyone who opposes your beliefs with cliche insults and generalizations. I have a lot of "Bushie" friends who realize that 9/11 is different from Iraq, and they sure as hell don't look "cock-headed and glassy-eyed" when we have political discussions. Pardon my hasty generalization, but it seems like every liberal-minded person I've met, whom I have as much respect for as a "Bushie" like myself, ridicule right-wingers like they were blind amoebas who only followed Bush because they're idiots. This may be true for some, but it's definitely true for Democrats too. My dad would follow Kerry into hell and back, just because he's a Democrat; not because of his views or beliefs, just 'cause he's a Democrat. And, by the way, about the "dark-skinned fellers" crack, I doubt you could tell an Iraqi from your own turd, you communist.
Let's see, you berate this guy for calling Bush fans stupid. In the same post you
- threaten him with violence
- call him an "a-hole"
- call him a communist (is this a code word for "evil" in America?)

And you've got to admit, statements like "You're either with us or with the terrorists" don't make your guy look very good.

Sadly, this is true...I honestly feel that pacifism is entirely unfeasible if even one person refuses to subscribe to such a policy. When that happens, that one person will take advantage and slaughter all the rest--and this is why self-defense is necessary: because if you do so rationally, it can prevent even further slaughter. It is not that I enjoy fighting or anything, but I accept self-defense as a reason to do so. You might ask if I'd be willing to give my own life for that...yes, if ever there were a need. To be perfectly honest, I don't think the military would want me unless circumstances got dire, but if that ever came to pass, I'd do my part. I wouldn't enjoy it, but I'd do it.



I think the analogy between the current war and the Cold War is quite fitting, and sadly, I agree that we could very well wind up being annihilated if ever such a war goes hot...especially if a biological weapon is deployed.

After all, a virus doesn't care whose side you're on.


Wow.. this is the first time someones actually AGREED with me writing! I guess that if you dont blam one side or another too much, everybodies happy :D.

This isnt a war of the U.S. against Radical Islam, in some ways its a war with the U.S. Against the World.Its almost as if its a Cold War beween the rest of the World and the U.S., and the war against Radical islam is the Korea of this new cold semi-war. If the war ever grew to actual fighting, then we all better just lay down and die, because World War three will literaly be the War to end all wars. It will end everything else too.
This is an interesting theory. But do you really think that the US is in a Cold War with the rest of the world? We Europeans are on your side.

Let's see, you berate this guy for calling Bush fans stupid. In the same post you
- threaten him with violence
- call him an "a-hole"
- call him a communist (is this a code word for "evil" in America?)

And you've got to admit, statements like "You're either with us or with the terrorists" don't make your guy look very good.

Hey even though i am a bush fan i agree that he went a little bit over the edge, BUT, the person he was quoting went over the edge as well. Cant we just argue WITHOUT attacking people in evil ways? Its common courtesy, people.

Oh, and by the way, when you call someone "communist" in america, its most of the time an insult. Seeing how american capitalism and Communism are polar opposites.

America has lost the will to fight.

There I said it, what are you going to do about it?

We have lost almost a thousand men in Iraq and everyone is crying that it is time to bring the boys home. What happened to the resolve and patriotism that we all had after 9/11/2001?

More than 10,000 men died in the space of an hour at Cold Harbor, Virginia 1864. Approximately 600,000 men died in the American Civil War, more than in the Revolutionary War, Mexican War, WW1, and WW2 combined.

Tens of thousands died fighting for the freedom of the world on one morning June 6, 1944.

America is the greatest country in the world with the most freedom both politically and economically of any country in the history of the world. But we would rather surrender it all because oh it must be our fault that Islamic murderers are hijacking our planes to hit our skyscrapers.

Whether anybody wants to realize it or not this war on terror is a religious and cultural war. It is not the Cold War where we could just wait the other side out. The people who are attacking us would rather see us all dead than have us enjoy our freedom. And we worry about whether we are causing more terror by going over there and attacking them.

Newsflash: What about Beirut? What about the first World Trade Center bombing? What about the bombings of the US embassies in East Africa? What about Mogadishu? What about the attack on the USS Cole? Correct me if I'm wrong but those events happened before Afghanistan and Iraq were freed from their oppressive regimes.

If it were me running a news station I would show more video from the morning of 9/11/2001. I would show the planes flying into the buildings because people need to be reminded of what happened that morning because it seems a lot of people have forgotten.

It is either that or face another horrific day like 9/11/2001. And we will have another day like that if we don't step up to the plate and defend our freedom from those who would deny it from us like our forefathers.


I grow really tired of people equating terrorism with the war in Iraq. There is NO CONNECTION.

In fact the reason the US has lost its will to fight is because the idiot administration GAVE UP the war on terrorism to wage war on Iraq. Its as if we invaded Korea in response to Pearl Harbor.

When your government does not respond properly to an attack on the US, how can you expect the people NOT to give up hope????

This is an interesting theory. But do you really think that the US is in a Cold War with the rest of the world? We Europeans are on your side.

To a degree, yes. Unfortunatly, not every European (*cough* France, Germany, and a bit of Spain *cough*) likes the america very much. Most of the time, and i dont mean to rationalize, Europeans attack the U.S. on these forums, and in politics too. So, while Europe isnt really on ANY side, i guess its Neutral. With the exception of the U.K., of course. And italy, and Poland. But most other countries are neutral.

I grow really tired of people equating terrorism with the war in Iraq. There is NO CONNECTION.

In fact the reason the US has lost its will to fight is because the idiot administration GAVE UP the war on terrorism to wage war on Iraq. Its as if we invaded Korea in response to Pearl Harbor.

When your government does not respond properly to an attack on the US, how can you expect the people NOT to give up hope????

Well, it depends on what you call "Terrorism". If "terrorism" only has to do with bombing western countries, you are right, there is no connection. On the OTHER hand, this man had killed millions of innocent people. I believe THAT is some sort of Terrorism.

Oh, and North Korea was a Japanese territory during WWII, so if we attack them it would have been attacking Japan. In a way.

If you said this to me in real life, I would grab the nearest blunt object and beat you until I really opened your mind. You liberal a-holes preach acceptance and tolerance, but then you start slamming anyone who opposes your beliefs with cliche insults and generalizations. I have a lot of "Bushie" friends who realize that 9/11 is different from Iraq, and they sure as hell don't look "cock-headed and glassy-eyed" when we have political discussions. Pardon my hasty generalization, but it seems like every liberal-minded person I've met, whom I have as much respect for as a "Bushie" like myself, ridicule right-wingers like they were blind amoebas who only followed Bush because they're idiots. This may be true for some, but it's definitely true for Democrats too. My dad would follow Kerry into hell and back, just because he's a Democrat; not because of his views or beliefs, just 'cause he's a Democrat. And, by the way, about the "dark-skinned fellers" crack, I doubt you could tell an Iraqi from your own turd, you communist.

I said "those Bushies who have become thoroughly indoctrinated," meaning specifically those who cannot see beyond their own ideologies and are unwilling/unable to process new information. The fact that you took personal offense to this either means you have poor comprehension skills, or that you are, indeed, thoroughly indoctrinated.
I also cited a specific scenario when I made the "glassy eyed" comment, something I have seen personally several times. I thought it was clear that I didn't refer to all conservatives at all times, but I guess the little nerve cluster you call a brain lacks the ability to process anything beyond the reading level of "My Pet Goat."

Do you even know what the term "communist" means?

As for your physical threat to me, well, you sound like a bully, and I haven't met a bully yet whose ass I couldn't kick. Bring it on, you candy ass sheep-buggerer.

Hey even though i am a bush fan i agree that he went a little bit over the edge, BUT, the person he was quoting went over the edge as well. Cant we just argue WITHOUT attacking people in evil ways? Its common courtesy, people.

Oh, and by the way, when you call someone "communist" in america, its most of the time an insult. Seeing how american capitalism and Communism are polar opposites.

I would like to politely disagree that I went over the edge. My pointed comment was very specific, and was not directed at any reasonable person. I never said anything like, "all conservatives," or "all republicans."

what I said was "Those Bushies who have become thoroughly indoctrinated." If you are a rational, reasonable Bush supporter, then clearly my comments were not directed at you.

Unashamed Christians, you have some... interesting opinions, some of which I shared at one point in time. At least you are not afraid to post them, even though you must know you are part of a beleagured minority here. That's something I have to admire.

However, I disagree with you on several points, and not just the ones you posted here. This country wants to fight. For many, many reasons. The more we fight, the more we want to, because as battle goes on, rules continue to get broken and we think our dead ought to be avenged. Violence begets violence. Never forget it.

Second, this country is ruled, not by any politician the world loves to hate, but by Consumerism, and Mammon and Power, whom we worship every day. As Knootoss once pointed out (see quote below), the worship of Mammon and Power inevitably leads to the worship of War.

"If my people... will humble themselves... I will heal their land." (not quite exact)

—YHWH

"Once upon a time there had been a great republic, and proclamations hailing new gods named Liberty and Equal Rights for All. And in high places in the republic there was a separate cult to worship Mammon and Power. And the Republic became an Empire, and soon Liberty and Equal Rights for All were not worshipped, and even Mammon and Power were given only lip-service, for the true god of all was the paranoid, wicked god of War."

—Knootoss

Hi there moron. I'm one of those men who went to Iraq. I lost my best friend there to an ambush. I watched 17 of my fellow soldiers get the purple heart (for real wounds, you hear that John Kerry?). Don't tell me that I've lost the will to fight. Would you rather have 50,000 troops dead?

The civilians at home aren't fighting this war. We are. So when assholes like you invoke the memory of all the soldiers who died doing their duty before us, and then tell me that I've lost the will to fight, when I've already spent a year in some of the hottest zones in Iraq (which I'm guessing you haven't), it makes me sick to my stomach that people like you were spared in the latest school shooting. Now go back to reading your Tom Clancy books and Stephen Ambrose novels, and read about the kind of war that YOU want.

America has lost the will to fight.

There I said it, what are you going to do about it?

We have lost almost a thousand men in Iraq and everyone is crying that it is time to bring the boys home. What happened to the resolve and patriotism that we all had after 9/11/2001?

More than 10,000 men died in the space of an hour at Cold Harbor, Virginia 1864. Approximately 600,000 men died in the American Civil War, more than in the Revolutionary War, Mexican War, WW1, and WW2 combined.

Tens of thousands died fighting for the freedom of the world on one morning June 6, 1944.

America is the greatest country in the world with the most freedom both politically and economically of any country in the history of the world. But we would rather surrender it all because oh it must be our fault that Islamic murderers are hijacking our planes to hit our skyscrapers.

Whether anybody wants to realize it or not this war on terror is a religious and cultural war. It is not the Cold War where we could just wait the other side out. The people who are attacking us would rather see us all dead than have us enjoy our freedom. And we worry about whether we are causing more terror by going over there and attacking them.

Newsflash: What about Beirut? What about the first World Trade Center bombing? What about the bombings of the US embassies in East Africa? What about Mogadishu? What about the attack on the USS Cole? Correct me if I'm wrong but those events happened before Afghanistan and Iraq were freed from their oppressive regimes.

If it were me running a news station I would show more video from the morning of 9/11/2001. I would show the planes flying into the buildings because people need to be reminded of what happened that morning because it seems a lot of people have forgotten.

It is either that or face another horrific day like 9/11/2001. And we will have another day like that if we don't step up to the plate and defend our freedom from those who would deny it from us like our forefathers.

From what I understand McVeigh was a sympathizer with the wacko down in Waco, can't remember his name right now and he was a certainly not a Christian. He took Christian beliefs and twisted them into something that totally un-Christian.

But that is not the point and you are trying to hijack the thread. The point is that Americans have lost their resolve and will to fight when we give free reign to those who would rather give up the fight, i.e. democrats. And don't say that Democrats don't want to give up the fight, cause Kerry just said he will bring the boys home in six months or something like that. Thats the perfect plan, let the terrorist know when we're going to pull it out, then they'll lay low until we pull out and then cause all the havoc they want when we leave.

In 6 months? Maybe after he sends the 40,000 troops.

unfortunately, those Bushies who have become thoroughly indoctrinated can only distinguish black and white. To them, the world consists of "us" and "all them dark skinned fellers."

Trying to explain the difference between a secular Middle East dictatorship and a fundamentalist Islam movement evokes the same cocked head and glassy stare you get when trying to explain tax code to a cocker spaniel.

Except for the fact that we support Turkey, A secular middle eastern state. We support pakistan, an islamic state. We support israel, a non-islamic middle eastern state. We support Saudi, a religious monarchy.

So actually, I think we do get the difference pretty damn well.

Trying to explain to you the difference between your fantasy world where everyone is liberal and happy living in socialist brotherhood, and the real world evokes much the same effect that you describe above.

Do some research next time.

Hi there moron. I'm one of those men who went to Iraq. I lost my best friend there to an ambush. I watched 17 of my fellow soldiers get the purple heart (for real wounds, you hear that John Kerry?). Don't tell me that I've lost the will to fight. Would you rather have 50,000 troops dead?

The civilians at home aren't fighting this war. We are. So when assholes like you invoke the memory of all the soldiers who died doing their duty before us, and then tell me that I've lost the will to fight, when I've already spent a year in some of the hottest zones in Iraq (which I'm guessing you haven't), it makes me sick to my stomach that people like you were spared in the latest school shooting. Now go back to reading your Tom Clancy books and Stephen Ambrose novels, and read about the kind of war that YOU want.

Ok, now i know this post wasnt pointed at me, but i would just like to say somethign about myself.

I lived in Pakistan for 2 years. It is mostly peaceful there, but there have been several occasions were i have been in an un-safe posistion. First there was a missile that flew over the U.S. Embassy, wehere i worked, and second, right DOWN the road from the embassy was a church. I say "Was" because some terrorists threw grenades into it. It blew up 2 family members of my friends, and severly wounded the survivors, including my friend. And i was Not even 200, 300 yards away from it. So while i havent been in a "Hot Spot", not all of us are Stupid civilians who thinka all wars should be like Tom Clancys novels. Everyone forgets the Foreign Service....

Except for the fact that we support Turkey, A secular middle eastern state. We support pakistan, an islamic state. We support israel, a non-islamic middle eastern state. We support Saudi, a religious monarchy.

So actually, I think we do get the difference pretty damn well.

Trying to explain to you the difference between your fantasy world where everyone is liberal and happy living in socialist brotherhood, and the real world evokes much the same effect that you describe above.

Do some research next time.

oh Pakistan isnt REALLY an Islamic State. Its mostly muslim, sure, but its really a militaristic Democracy. They dont follow Islamic law(for the most part). I know its called the Islamic REpublic but... its just a name.

Except for the fact that we support Turkey, A secular middle eastern state. We support pakistan, an islamic state. We support israel, a non-islamic middle eastern state. We support Saudi, a religious monarchy.

So actually, I think we do get the difference pretty damn well.

Trying to explain to you the difference between your fantasy world where everyone is liberal and happy living in socialist brotherhood, and the real world evokes much the same effect that you describe above.

Do some research next time.

For the third time, read what I actually said. All your examples are Nations, while I specifically mentioned a movement. You prove my point for me.

The fact that the Americans were so saddened by the loss of the twin towers proves they are weak. 3 000 people died, who gives a flying rat's ass? Yes there is the need to prevent further incidents, but it's not like it was a massive tragedy. More people than that die every year on American roads. 6 000 people died when we bombed Iraq, no Westerner cares about that waste of life; thousands of Iraqis have died fighting for their freedom that we gave them. Okay 1 000 American soldiers have died in Iraq, they owe it to them to finish the job and protect the Iraqis until they can live without fear of being shot the moment they open their door, that every car on the road is a bomb.

The fact that the Americans were so saddened by the loss of the twin towers proves they are weak. 3 000 people died, who gives a flying rat's ass? Yes there is the need to prevent further incidents, but it's not like it was a massive tragedy. More people than that die every year on American roads. 6 000 people died when we bombed Iraq, no Westerner cares about that waste of life; thousands of Iraqis have died fighting for their freedom that we gave them. Okay 1 000 American soldiers have died in Iraq, they owe it to them to finish the job and protect the Iraqis until they can live without fear of being shot the moment they open their door, that every car on the road is a bomb.

Just to let you know, you REALLY shouldnt have said that thing about Sept 11...

And it was a massive tragedy, the difference between the IRAQIS dying in Iraq and the AMERICANs dying on Sept 11 is that, the Iraqis died FIGHTING. The American Civilians were cruely murdered. And it was more of a symbolic attack. It showed that america was weak, so we must avoid another once.

Just to let you know, you REALLY shouldnt have said that thing about Sept 11...

And it was a massive tragedy, the difference between the IRAQIS dying in Iraq and the AMERICANs dying on Sept 11 is that, the Iraqis died FIGHTING. The American Civilians were cruely murdered. And it was more of a symbolic attack. It showed that america was weak, so we must avoid another once.
What about those that were carpet bombed? Those that were thought to be living in a terrorist safe house but maybe they weren't? What about the women and children who were shot for no apparent reason by US troops?
Yes it was symbolic, a symbol of a the 'free world' falling to the ground is definately not a good thing. But the fact that just because it was symbolic shouldn't make it a massive tragedy when the reasons and casualities were the same as those in Iraq.

What about those that were carpet bombed? Those that were thought to be living in a terrorist safe house but maybe they weren't? What about the women and children who were shot for no apparent reason by US troops?
Yes it was symbolic, a symbol of a the 'free world' falling to the ground is definately not a good thing. But the fact that just because it was symbolic shouldn't make it a massive tragedy when the reasons and casualities were the same as those in Iraq.

I KNOW that there was civilian damage, but there was no way there could not have been. Everyone knows that the worlds intelligence agencies... well they suck. And thos people that shot women and children on prupose are sick people...

Does anyone else here think that maybe, just maybe, after centuries of nearly constant conflict, Americans may just be tired of seeing our soldier die?

It seems that this loss of the 'will to fight' that Unashamed speaks of may not be a loss of will, but maybe instead people getting tired of war. Complain of loss of life all you want from earlier conflicts, the fact is, medicine and technology have increased to such a level that those kind of losses are no longer accepted in our society. Thats besides the fact that the American public feels mislead about the reasons for war in Iraq.

I lived 30 minutes away from New York City when the hijackers flew their planes into the buildings. I watched smoke raise up in the sky for the rest of the day. One of my friends watched the second plane hit the second tower. Eleven people in my town lost parents. And guess what - not a single one of them wanted revenge. Not a single one called out for the blood of Muslims. So, perhaps you have misjudged this fighting spirit. Maybe, instead of thirsting for blood, they wanted to grive privatly and go on, not watch other people's children, husbands, and fathers get killed in a conflict that was, essentially, unnecessary.

Unashamed, on a side note - you mentioned that McVeigh was a lunatic who did not represent Christianity because he wanted to blow up a building. How do you represent Christianity anymore than he does? You essentially call for more blood and more violence under the facade of the will to fight. Perhaps you best examine your own beliefs compared to the bible before you claim that someone is a fringe lunatic.

Does anyone else here think that maybe, just maybe, after centuries of nearly constant conflict, Americans may just be tired of seeing our soldier die?

It seems that this loss of the 'will to fight' that Unashamed speaks of may not be a loss of will, but maybe instead people getting tired of war. Complain of loss of life all you want from earlier conflicts, the fact is, medicine and technology have increased to such a level that those kind of losses are no longer accepted in our society. Thats besides the fact that the American public feels mislead about the reasons for war in Iraq.

I lived 30 minutes away from New York City when the hijackers flew their planes into the buildings. I watched smoke raise up in the sky for the rest of the day. One of my friends watched the second plane hit the second tower. Eleven people in my town lost parents. And guess what - not a single one of them wanted revenge. Not a single one called out for the blood of Muslims. So, perhaps you have misjudged this fighting spirit. Maybe, instead of thirsting for blood, they wanted to grive privatly and go on, not watch other people's children, husbands, and fathers get killed in a conflict that was, essentially, unnecessary.

Unashamed, on a side note - you mentioned that McVeigh was a lunatic who did not represent Christianity because he wanted to blow up a building. How do you represent Christianity anymore than he does? You essentially call for more blood and more violence under the facade of the will to fight. Perhaps you best examine your own beliefs compared to the bible before you claim that someone is a fringe lunatic.

Only racists called for blood against Muslims. The rest of the country called for the Blood of Al Qaeda. And even if the u.S. is getting tired of war, we still must fight. There will always be armed conflict. The U.S., in particular, must fight, because WE are the world sole super-power. It is better to be feared and respected than to be timid and hated.

I grow really tired of people equating terrorism with the war in Iraq. There is NO CONNECTION.

In fact the reason the US has lost its will to fight is because the idiot administration GAVE UP the war on terrorism to wage war on Iraq. Its as if we invaded Korea in response to Pearl Harbor.

When your government does not respond properly to an attack on the US, how can you expect the people NOT to give up hope????

what he said.

we have come to understand that we had no real imminent reason to go into iraq and now it looks like we'll never get out. AND we begin to worry what other axes mr bush my have to grind somewhere else in the world to get our boys and girls killed.

the war on terror cant be won on the battlefield. new terrorists are made every day. it will be won in the banks, in intelligence and in diplomacy. if the big boys cant pay for big stuff, they'll be reduced to throwing rocks. not that a rock cant kill you but its something we can deal with.

the problem is, if we withdraw from iraq before they have a strong government we are in big trouble

in the first place we have invaded a country that did nothing to us and had no serious way to do anything to us. it would be utterly shameful to leave them worse off than they were before we went in. with out a strong govt there is going to be a blood bath that will remind you of rwanda.

secondly if we leave before they have a strong government all we will have done is embolden terrorists even more. they will have WON. they will be the big men of the middle east and will draw many thousands of new terrorists to them. it would be a nightmare.

so guts or not, we have to stay. im hoping our next president will be more careful about who he invades and why.

But tha fact remains that the american people has lost the will to fight, the soldiers (God bless every one of them) are not appreciated enough. When people say the country is arrogant, there right, and its not only the Bush type people, its these GodDamn people that think that everything is conspiracy. Bush is the next hitler huh, WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU. I am enbarresed by many people in this country. Freedom is corupting us, and it proves that democracy will fail. So if we continue on this path guess whats next.
Socialism then
Communism then
Fascist then
Anarchy then tribes will become because people notice they cannot live in complete anarchy.
Monarchy they will elect leaders, most likely a king type person
Democracy then it starts all over again
You cant deny that socialism is the future of America, yes we need to be compationate but national well fare to pay for all injuries is not the resolution. If you really want to help them go give your own dollar to a agency like red cross. You dont want to do you, but you will make the government do it? This country is going to hell in a handbasket and i hope to GOD i will be dead before this country becomes completly socialistic.

Ok, now i know this post wasnt pointed at me, but i would just like to say somethign about myself.

It wasn't. I was referring to him.

As for whether pakistan follows Sharia.....I'll defer to your knowledge since you lived there, I haven't. But I do recall that in some instances, perhaps when it suits the government, they choose to follow Sharia.

"What about those that were carpet bombed?"

Considering that 85% of our bombs are precision guided, there was no carpet bombing in Iraq.

" Those that were thought to be living in a terrorist safe house but maybe they weren't?"

Or maybe they were.

" What about the women and children who were shot for no apparent reason by US troops?"

Show me women ans children shot for no reason by US troops. Cite me sources. Because I have been reading the incident reports since the war began, and the only time that women and children were shot was when they made threatening moves towards coalition troops.

One day while I was pulling guard duty, a mother handed her 5 year old son a pistol which he pointed and fired at me. It didn't hit. Was that apparently no reason?


"Yes it was symbolic, a symbol of a the 'free world' falling to the ground is definately not a good thing. But the fact that just because it was symbolic shouldn't make it a massive tragedy when the reasons and casualities were the same as those in Iraq. "

Not the same. Totally different.

America's ideals are respected. America's intentions are feared. America's policies are hated.

Tragedy will happen, yes. It is unavoidable, for we are fallible, emotional beings. It is our ability to carry on with our freedoms and ideals in the face of adversity that defines our strength. We can be fearful and lash out, sometimes missing our just targets, or we can be strong and secure and give truth to the bright and proud image we would project to the world.

America has stumbled at times. We are human. America has regrets, we should learn from them. But above all, Amrica is supposed to stand for freedom and ingenuity. We, at our best, are builders. Builders of democracy. Builders of technological wonders. Builders of things that transcend the material; the mortal.
The richest nation on the planet should have the richest lives. We should be pillars of culture. A nation that has a GDP greater than the next 3 nations combined has no excuse to not care for it's people! It has no excuse to be anything but 1st in education and the arts and sciences. It has no excuse to not have the best government that money can't buy.
Feared? Why are we so insecure as to feel the need to be feared? Since when does fear lead to peace?

Since when did the will to fight become defined solely as the willingness to use force? The fighters I admire are Benjamin Franklin, the Wright Brothers, Martin Luther King Jr, Ghandi, and the countless, nameless starving artists, philosophers and scientists who fight daily to build, not to tear down.

This is not to say that our soldiers are not to be honored. They fight so that we don't have to. It is only fair that they only fight when they have to.

what he said.

we have come to understand that we had no real imminent reason to go into iraq and now it looks like we'll never get out. AND we begin to worry what other axes mr bush my have to grind somewhere else in the world to get our boys and girls killed.

the war on terror cant be won on the battlefield. new terrorists are made every day. it will be won in the banks, in intelligence and in diplomacy. if the big boys cant pay for big stuff, they'll be reduced to throwing rocks. not that a rock cant kill you but its something we can deal with.

the problem is, if we withdraw from iraq before they have a strong government we are in big trouble

in the first place we have invaded a country that did nothing to us and had no serious way to do anything to us. it would be utterly shameful to leave them worse off than they were before we went in. with out a strong govt there is going to be a blood bath that will remind you of rwanda.

secondly if we leave before they have a strong government all we will have done is embolden terrorists even more. they will have WON. they will be the big men of the middle east and will draw many thousands of new terrorists to them. it would be a nightmare.

so guts or not, we have to stay. im hoping our next president will be more careful about who he invades and why.

WE're in big trouble, no matter what. Its only a mater of time until the next attack on U.S. soil, only a matter of time...

America's ideals are respected. America's intentions are feared. America's policies are hated.

Tragedy will happen, yes. It is unavoidable, for we are fallible, emotional beings. It is our ability to carry on with our freedoms and ideals in the face of adversity that defines our strength. We can be fearful and lash out, sometimes missing our just targets, or we can be strong and secure and give truth to the bright and proud image we would project to the world.

America has stumbled at times. We are human. America has regrets, we should learn from them. But above all, Amrica is supposed to stand for freedom and ingenuity. We, at our best, are builders. Builders of democracy. Builders of technological wonders. Builders of things that transcend the material; the mortal.
The richest nation on the planet should have the richest lives. We should be pillars of culture. A nation that has a GDP greater than the next 3 nations combined has no excuse to not care for it's people! It has no excuse to be anything but 1st in education and the arts and sciences. It has no excuse to not have the best government that money can't buy.
Feared? Why are we so insecure as to feel the need to be feared? Since when does fear lead to peace?

Since when did the will to fight become defined solely as the willingness to use force? The fighters I admire are Benjamin Franklin, the Wright Brothers, Martin Luther King Jr, Ghandi, and the countless, nameless starving artists, philosophers and scientists who fight daily to build, not to tear down.


Ahhh, but sometimes it is only possible to build great things on the ruins of evil.

Most of us have lost our will to fight, but there are some left who believe it what America can be and without them America is a useless Europe.

Ahhh, but sometimes it is only possible to build great things on the ruins of evil.

Sometimes

Ive said it before and il say it again, human beings will fight each other until the day we die. Most people alive havent even SEEN a real war, and even then most of them were young. How can we loose the will to fight when most of us hav enever seen a real war? Excluding this one, of course.

Freedom is corupting us, and it proves that democracy will fail. So if we continue on this path guess whats next.
Socialism then
Communism then
Fascist then
Anarchy then tribes will become because people notice they cannot live in complete anarchy.
Monarchy they will elect leaders, most likely a king type person
Democracy then it starts all over again
You cant deny that socialism is the future of America, yes we need to be compationate but national well fare to pay for all injuries is not the resolution. If you really want to help them go give your own dollar to a agency like red cross. You dont want to do you, but you will make the government do it? This country is going to hell in a handbasket and i hope to GOD i will be dead before this country becomes completly socialistic.

Okay, so we used slippery slope and causation implies correlation here. Neither work.

Socialism is not a factor of freedom 'corrupting us'. Socialism is a political ideal that focuses on the people the government is responsable for. This political ideal seeks to better the country through its policies, not restrict them. European socialists tend to have at least the same amount of freedoms we Americans do or more. Again, socialism does not imply communism either. One is not a factor of the other. European countries are socialists and none of them has moved to a communistic society.

America .... [has] the most freedom both politically and economically of any country in the history of the world.

No it doesn't. It's not even the most free country in the world at the moment, not by a long shot.

Wait a minute...you're saying we've lost the will to fight? Then how come we haven't pulled back yet?
It's because all those crying are not the one's pulling the big shots. The weak who fear fighting and hate imposing whats best onto the people never take power because they can't pull important decisions upon people, much less enforce them...
I'm not saying that we(America) should go socialist or anything...it's just that we need to hear some more from the people that aren't crying. The news these days focuses more on unhappy people and trajadies (sp?) instead of a well balance of everything. Then again, happy people or those psyked(sp?) aren't going to make headlines because for some odd reason Americans have a tendancy to focus on bad news more than good. I mean, who wants to hear from some nobody supporting the war? I might, but apparently not the majority of people watching the news shows tend to disagree with me.

That is one of the reasons the U.S. is weakening.

Instead of focusing on the good, as in improvement, we focus on the bad.
So what if you're not happy about high taxes. You have a secure nation to be a part of, some well-paying job, especially compared to quite a few other countries in the world. Not to mention that crime rates seem to be lowering every year, or at least where I live. The list goes on...

I hate hearing from complainers... :headbang:
Positive criticizers on the other hand are okay... :cool:

If you want to stop this war and make those soldiers out there come home, even though the whole reason they are in the army is to fight for this country, then go out there and do it yourself and quit complaining.

Crime rates lowered every year of the Clinton Administration. It has been rising under Bush (Google it if you don't believe me.)

Well thats what happens when you leave good ol' isolationism. We have fought so much in the last 50 years American has grown tired of it. It use to be we had a good war every say... Maybe 20 to 30 years. Now its gone to about every ten or so. The problem is we keep having to fight people. Sometimes because we choose to (i.e. Iraq, or any police action) or when we have to fight someone (i.e. Cold War, WW2, WW1, TERRORISM). But maybe its not the country who is tired of fighting, but possibly the media?

Okay, so we used slippery slope and causation implies correlation here. Neither work.

Socialism is not a factor of freedom 'corrupting us'. Socialism is a political ideal that focuses on the people the government is responsable for. This political ideal seeks to better the country through its policies, not restrict them. European socialists tend to have at least the same amount of freedoms we Americans do or more. Again, socialism does not imply communism either. One is not a factor of the other. European countries are socialists and none of them has moved to a communistic society.
But cant you allready see the political style of america slipping away into socialism. And with socialism comes the search for complete equality, with equality come communism and so on and so forth. And the reason no socialist state has become comunist is because they have not been given enough time. One form of government can ALLWAYs lead to another. Look at the english, monarchy, people werent satisfied with the way it was going so they movied to the new world, where they formed democracy, for alsmost two hundred years pople have been content with this nation(besides the civil war which had a dumb reason for fighting anyways), but now they are not. It doesnt make sense to me anymore, you can hate bush all you want but for Gods sake respect him, i mean he is the president of the most powerful country in the worl, he should get props for that right?

"Greatest"? Totally subjective. 'Most politically free' - absolutely incorrect. 'Most economically free' - I'm sure the libertarians will disagree. How about Costa Rica? Ireland?

While you're at it, please show all of the murders and outrages perpetrated by extremists and thugs and cynical manipulators of international and national affairs. Please show us the victims of dictators and regimes propped up by Western governments, of crippling and unjustified economic sanctions imposed by the West and of economic doctrines enforced by Western nations that wouldn't dream of subjecting themselves to such deprivation and asset-stripping. Make sure the public sees the results of Christian fundamentalism - show us the Oklahoma bombings.

How about being 'fair and balanced'?


What on earth are you talking about?

I agree we are a bit soft. After all, Osama bin Laden thought that America would walk with it's tail between its legs after 9/11. There was a public outcry when troops were lost in Somalia. Imagine what'd happen, he reasoned, when many civilians were killed in war. Still, if America is loosing its will to fight, that isn't reflected in the recruitment office. Just at home. But hey, dissent is a healthy part of any war, even though I think they are dangerously wrong.

But cant you allready see the political style of america slipping away into socialism.
We've been moving away from Socialism ever since 1980.

The United States IS the most free country in the world. Last i checked, theres no Gestapo watching me until i say something bad about the president, and when i do they shoot me. Hey listen, people! You can love us or hate us, but if you dont respect us, then you are seriously screwed. If the U.S. pulled out all of our troops and financial aid to the rest of the world, well, lets just say that the world would be in one big mess. If it wasnt for the US, we'd all be in Soviet Deathcamps.

If you dont agree the U.S. is the msot free, tell me what country IS.

Ive said it before and il say it again, human beings will fight each other until the day we die. Most people alive havent even SEEN a real war, and even then most of them were young. How can we loose the will to fight when most of us hav enever seen a real war? Excluding this one, of course.

I beg to differ. Look at Africa. Constant war there. Middle East. Some war in certain areas. That's a good bit of the world's population. You should of said most of the western world's population.

The United States IS the most free country in the world. Last i checked, theres no Gestapo watching me until i say something bad about the president, and when i do they shoot me. Hey listen, people! You can love us or hate us, but if you dont respect us, then you are seriously screwed. If the U.S. pulled out all of our troops and financial aid to the rest of the world, well, lets just say that the world would be in one big mess. If it wasnt for the US, we'd all be in Soviet Deathcamps.

If you dont agree the U.S. is the msot free, tell me what country IS.

Nah, I'd say Holland has us beat socially. Most politically free? I think we need more that 2 parties to make that claim.

I beg to differ. Look at Africa. Constant war there. Middle East. Some war in certain areas. That's a good bit of the world's population. You should of said most of the western world's population.

Not to mention India and Pakistan, The Balkans, and Russia and their problems.

I beg to differ. Look at Africa. Constant war there. Middle East. Some war in certain areas. That's a good bit of the world's population. You should of said most of the western world's population.
It's actually quite possible. During the Middle Ages in Europe, war was constant, but was far removed from everyday life. That was before wars like WWI. Today, most wars are fought with little more but AK-47s. It's also possible few have seen wars, even in Africa.

Okay, so we used slippery slope and causation implies correlation here. Neither work.

Socialism is not a factor of freedom 'corrupting us'. Socialism is a political ideal that focuses on the people the government is responsable for. This political ideal seeks to better the country through its policies, not restrict them. European socialists tend to have at least the same amount of freedoms we Americans do or more. Again, socialism does not imply communism either. One is not a factor of the other. European countries are socialists and none of them has moved to a communistic society.

That's true. I'm sick of people *cough*Bill O'Reilly*cough* thinking that any governement that actually cares about it's people is communist.

If you dont agree the U.S. is the msot free, tell me what country IS.

switzerland, finland, sweden, norway, denmark, any west-european country except one or two.

are them enough?

But cant you allready see the political style of america slipping away into socialism. And with socialism comes the search for complete equality, with equality come communism and so on and so forth. And the reason no socialist state has become comunist is because they have not been given enough time.

lol, a lot of people is still brainwashed by cold war propaganda.

i don't see france or or italy as communist countries, and don't think they will ever be.

think before writing, please.

cheers

Whatever, the U.S. is still the msot free. And even if we ARENT, which we are, we are the REASON all of your countries are free. We invented TRUE democracy (the greeks werent so good at it, nor the romans.), we saved the world from evil empires (Japan, Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union. And Yes, if it werent for the U.S., the Allies would have lost both world wars), PLUS we invented the ultimate weapon, FAST FOOD! (j/k on that last part).

Im sorry about what i said that msot people havent even seen a war, i meant the United States :(. How can a nation that hasnt seen a REAL war since the 60's (the gulf War didnt really count, it was too easy. Of course, that doesnt dishonor the soldiers who died in it. Neither does the U.S./Panama war, whcih lasted 2 weeks.) be tired of it? I still think its because Americans think that we are above the rest of the world, so we dont need to fight wars. :/

You _invented_ true Democracy? Look, you don't even have a true Democracy, a Candidate for President can get most votes, but still lose, a TRUE Democracy would work on the Popular Vote.

How do you figure you are the most free? What about Semi-Socialist countries like Norway? The Scandinavian countries are widely believed to have the biggest level of personal freedom in the world, so don't try that 'Great Free America' bullshit.

Well you can't deny the fact that america is a free country. It might not be the freeist but you can still do shit in it and thats good enough for me.

Whatever, the U.S. is still the msot free. And even if we ARENT, which we are, we are the REASON all of your countries are free.

we got 11 american bases in our country after US "freeing" us.
btw, until u americans will stop to use that arguments we will not be ever free, it's like i make a gift to ur son and everytime u have something to complain to me you say "hey but i gave ur son that gift..."


Im sorry about what i said that msot people havent even seen a war, i meant the United States :(. How can a nation that hasnt seen a REAL war since the 60's (the gulf War didnt really count, it was too easy. Of course, that doesnt dishonor the soldiers who died in it. Neither does the U.S./Panama war, whcih lasted 2 weeks.) be tired of it?

maybe someone realized that dying in a war that got no real reason was kinda stupid?


I still think its because Americans think that we are above the rest of the world, so we dont need to fight wars. :/

that's so arrogant from americans, one of the things that helps em making enemies.

cheers

Well, it depends on what you call "Terrorism". If "terrorism" only has to do with bombing western countries, you are right, there is no connection. On the OTHER hand, this man had killed millions of innocent people. I believe THAT is some sort of Terrorism.

Oh, and North Korea was a Japanese territory during WWII, so if we attack them it would have been attacking Japan. In a way.


I think one of problems is what each person is seeing as "terrorism". To me, it is the bombing/killing of other people/on other nations (not just western countries either).

As for the part "On the other hand"......
You are right that he killed millions of innocent people. Most of them his own people. Does this mean he should be punished? Sure. By us (by that I mean the United States)? No, not necessarily. It is up to his own people and the world (not one country) to make him pay for his crimes. Granted, it is horrible what he did to his own people. But my opinion is that Bush isn't much better since the "War on Terror" is not about Iraq. It is suppose to be about the terrorism that happened on 9/11.

And as for the point from earlier....."America has lost the will to fight".
I don't think we have lost the will to fight. Some of us are finally "waking-up" to the reality of this war with Iraq and the point we should not be there.

Plus for whoever posted the numbers of those who died during the American Civil War........ get a clue. It just burns me up when someone makes comments to the effect of...."There were more lost in the Civil War then any other war." No shit! We (America) were fighting ourselves. Duh! Of course, we lost more people in this war (military and civilivan).

Well you can't deny the fact that america is a free country. It might not be the freeist but you can still do shit in it and thats good enough for me.


never said it's not free.
but saying it's the freeist is kinda funny.

cheers

[QUOTE=I still think its because Americans think that we are above the rest of the world, so we dont need to fight wars. :/[/QUOTE]

I can honestly say that I do not think I am above the rest of the world. Why should I? Just because I was born and live in the United States - big whoop!

That does really mean much. Ok, our country isn't the worst in the world, but it isn't the best either.

edit: I meant... "That does Not really mean much"...... Didn't catch that typo.

still think its because Americans think that we are above the rest of the world, so we dont need to fight wars. :/

I can honestly say that I do not think I am above the rest of the world. Why should I? Just because I was born and live in the United States - big whoop!

That does really mean much. Ok, our country isn't the worst in the world, but it isn't the best either.

your county could be the best country in the world that's not the problem, the real point is that some people assumes that USA can do everything they want just cause they are the best, most free, most powerful etc etc. :/

when talking about foreign politics right-wing Americans here are just out of their mind (tbh, think about some real bad word, and put it there, i am censuring it)
(like in every nuke/kill/exterminate NK, Muslims, communists threads)

cheers

your county could be the best country in the world that's not the problem, the real point is that some people assumes that USA can do everything they want just cause they are the best, most free, most powerful etc etc. :/



America isn't the most free. In the past, Americans did have more freedoms than most people in other countries and the same could still be said - but we no longer have the greatest freedoms in the world as citizens.

As for being the best...... maybe in some things, but in others we are sorely lacking.

I can tell you I have no idea what kind of shape America is powerwise (besides some being full of hot air....many have said this about me as well). Personally, I think we might be able to hold our own in a fight with an other nation.

America never loses the fight.

America has an unconquerable spirit. It doesn't matter how many soldiers die, citizens die, or governments die; we go on, we live on, we carry on.

No other country in the world does that.

America never loses the fight.

America has an unconquerable spirit. It doesn't matter how many soldiers die, citizens die, or governments die; we go on, we live on, we carry on.

No other country in the world does that.

aehm... u forgot vietnam.
and it's easy to talk when u have no cognition of what a war at your home is.

about the "no other nation does that"

Finland (5 millions of people) resisted Russia invasion in world war 2, it sounds to me as a bit more heroic than what i see now.

cheers
edit: stop looking that Red Dawn movie, it's dangerous.

America has lost the will to fight.

There I said it, what are you going to do about it?

We have lost almost a thousand men in Iraq and everyone is crying that it is time to bring the boys home. What happened to the resolve and patriotism that we all had after 9/11/2001?

More than 10,000 men died in the space of an hour at Cold Harbor, Virginia 1864. Approximately 600,000 men died in the American Civil War, more than in the Revolutionary War, Mexican War, WW1, and WW2 combined.

Tens of thousands died fighting for the freedom of the world on one morning June 6, 1944.

America is the greatest country in the world with the most freedom both politically and economically of any country in the history of the world. But we would rather surrender it all because oh it must be our fault that Islamic murderers are hijacking our planes to hit our skyscrapers.

Whether anybody wants to realize it or not this war on terror is a religious and cultural war. It is not the Cold War where we could just wait the other side out. The people who are attacking us would rather see us all dead than have us enjoy our freedom. And we worry about whether we are causing more terror by going over there and attacking them.

Newsflash: What about Beirut? What about the first World Trade Center bombing? What about the bombings of the US embassies in East Africa? What about Mogadishu? What about the attack on the USS Cole? Correct me if I'm wrong but those events happened before Afghanistan and Iraq were freed from their oppressive regimes.

If it were me running a news station I would show more video from the morning of 9/11/2001. I would show the planes flying into the buildings because people need to be reminded of what happened that morning because it seems a lot of people have forgotten.

It is either that or face another horrific day like 9/11/2001. And we will have another day like that if we don't step up to the plate and defend our freedom from those who would deny it from us like our forefathers.
the liberals found something else to bitch about
thats what happened
personally i think all of them should be shot

the liberals found something else to bitch about
thats what happened
personally i think all of them should be shot

luckily u r just one of about 500M americans.

America has lost the will to fight.

There I said it, what are you going to do about it?

We have lost almost a thousand men in Iraq and everyone is crying that it is time to bring the boys home. What happened to the resolve and patriotism that we all had after 9/11/2001?

More than 10,000 men died in the space of an hour at Cold Harbor, Virginia 1864. Approximately 600,000 men died in the American Civil War, more than in the Revolutionary War, Mexican War, WW1, and WW2 combined.

Tens of thousands died fighting for the freedom of the world on one morning June 6, 1944.

America is the greatest country in the world with the most freedom both politically and economically of any country in the history of the world. But we would rather surrender it all because oh it must be our fault that Islamic murderers are hijacking our planes to hit our skyscrapers.

Whether anybody wants to realize it or not this war on terror is a religious and cultural war. It is not the Cold War where we could just wait the other side out. The people who are attacking us would rather see us all dead than have us enjoy our freedom. And we worry about whether we are causing more terror by going over there and attacking them.

Newsflash: What about Beirut? What about the first World Trade Center bombing? What about the bombings of the US embassies in East Africa? What about Mogadishu? What about the attack on the USS Cole? Correct me if I'm wrong but those events happened before Afghanistan and Iraq were freed from their oppressive regimes.

If it were me running a news station I would show more video from the morning of 9/11/2001. I would show the planes flying into the buildings because people need to be reminded of what happened that morning because it seems a lot of people have forgotten.

It is either that or face another horrific day like 9/11/2001. And we will have another day like that if we don't step up to the plate and defend our freedom from those who would deny it from us like our forefathers.
You seem to have a bloodlust?

What Church would preach this hateful philosophy, since you call this a "religious war"?

Who fills your head with this stuff?:

"The people who are attacking us would rather see us all dead than have us enjoy our freedom."

We have lost almost a thousand men in Iraq and everyone is crying that it is time to bring the boys home. What happened to the resolve and patriotism that we all had after 9/11/2001?


It all went to hell when we went to war in Iraq instead of finishing the job against Bin Laden, al Qaeda, and the Taliban. And for what? Iraq is in worse shape at least in the short term than it was before we invaded, and Hamid Karzai is in talks to include the Taliban in his new government in order to help bring some stability to Afghanistan. That's where the resolve went--it disappeared in a cloud of incompetence raised by the current President of the US and his merry band of bunglers.

Whatever, the U.S. is still the msot free.And even if we ARENT, which we are, we are the REASON all of your countries are free. We invented TRUE democracy (the greeks werent so good at it, nor the romans.), we saved the world from evil empires (Japan, Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union. And Yes, if it werent for the U.S., the Allies would have lost both world wars PLUS we invented the ultimate weapon, FAST FOOD! (j/k on that last part).

Im sorry about what i said that msot people havent even seen a war, i meant the United States :(. How can a nation that hasnt seen a REAL war since the 60's (the gulf War didnt really count, it was too easy. Of course, that doesnt dishonor the soldiers who died in it. Neither does the U.S./Panama war, whcih lasted 2 weeks.) be tired of it? I still think its because Americans think that we are above the rest of the world, so we dont need to fight wars. :/

1."And Yes, if it werent for the U.S., the Allies would have lost both world wars" No offense to your veterans, but what exactly did America do in WWI? The real people that won the war would be the armies that were in it from the start. Which includes us Canadians, who were without a doubt the best fighting force in, at least, the commonwealth, if not the war. :D

2. Whatever, the U.S. is still the msot free.And even if we ARENT, which we are That sure is true. What with the massacres of the natives, hardcore racism before the 70's, Not abolishing slavery for a long time.. etc. Yeah, real free. In my opinion, The U.S. is equal freedomwise with a lot of nations.

3. the greeks werent so good at it Well, they were pretty freakin' good, considering the time, and in what ways weren't they good at it?

4. I still think its because Americans think that we are above the rest of the world, so we dont need to fight wars You better be including yourself in that statement, 'cause you are the epiphany of person thinking that he's above the world. Grow up. There's way more to the world than the states.

When one considers that the media is controlled by anti-American leftists who distort the truth and ignore any inconvienient facts, it's amazing that there is any public support for the policies of the Bush administration be they foriegn or domestic. Here's a link reporting some of the good news from Iraq ignored by the media:

http://chrenkoff.blogspot.com/2004/08/good-news-from-iraq-part-8.html.

The Left is pulling out all the stops to defeat GWB. From movies (Michael Moore), to concerts, books, TV shows, radio, even the theatre. When Bush gets re-elected despite all this, it will be a truly resounding defeat for the Left.

When one considers that the media is controlled by anti-American leftists who distort the truth and ignore any inconvienient facts, it's amazing that there is any public support for the policies of the Bush administration be they foriegn or domestic. Here's a link reporting some of the good news from Iraq ignored by the media:

http://chrenkoff.blogspot.com/2004/08/good-news-from-iraq-part-8.html.

The Left is pulling out all the stops to defeat GWB. From movies (Michael Moore), to concerts, books, TV shows, radio, even the theatre. When Bush gets re-elected despite all this, it will be a truly resounding defeat for the Left.

Hehe.. all you have is Fox news! BIG GOVERNMENT THAT'S FAIR TO EVERYONE ALL THE WAY! Oh and that link that you gave.

But above all, Amrica is supposed to stand for freedom and ingenuity. We, at our best, are builders. Builders of democracy. Are you saying the US stands for freedom by supporting brutal dictatorships and fuelling global conflicts?

Really, you people live in a delusional self-righteous fantasy land. The US is not really that concerned about democracy or human rights for others. It's prime motivation is to ensure the protection of its economic interests.

Are you saying the US stands for freedom by supporting brutal dictatorships and fuelling global conflicts?

Really, you people live in a delusional self-righteous fantasy land. The US is not really that concerned about democracy or human rights for others. It's prime motivation is to ensure the protection of its economic interests.
And it always has. Hence the delay in joining both world wars and making a profit from the second. I don't have a problem with this, was boils my p*ss is the fact that they don't just admit it!
They look out for their own first then if they can be bothered their allies. No issue with that, unless they set themselves up as some self righteous paragon of virtue and democracy. Then they become something less honest and not very nice.

Are you saying the US stands for freedom by supporting brutal dictatorships and fuelling global conflicts?

Really, you people live in a delusional self-righteous fantasy land. The US is not really that concerned about democracy or human rights for others. It's prime motivation is to ensure the protection of its economic interests.

Why should we spend troops, time, and, money for things that don't affect our national interests?

I can't stand the whole argument about the War on Terror has caused more terrorism. The following events took place before we declared the War on Terror:

The bombing of the Marine barracks in Beirut, Lebanon

The bombing of a PanAm flights over Scotland

The '93 bombing of the World Trade Center

Mogadishu, Somalia; the disaster when 18 Army Rangers were killed.

The bombings of the US Embassies in East Africa

The bombing of the USS Cole in the main port of Yemen

And last but certainly not least, the attacks on the morning of
September 11, 2001.

In case you hadn't figured it out, they hated us before we declared a war on terror. When you have radical Islamicists preaching hate for America and Israel then you have a religious and cultural war. Especially when you have Madrases(I think that is how you spell it) teaching young children to hate America. That is a cultural and religious problem.

I can't stand the whole argument about the War on Terror has caused more terrorism. The following events took place before we declared the War on Terror:

The bombing of the Marine barracks in Beirut, Lebanon

The bombing of a PanAm flights over Scotland

The '93 bombing of the World Trade Center

Mogadishu, Somalia; the disaster when 18 Army Rangers were killed.

The bombings of the US Embassies in East Africa

The bombing of the USS Cole in the main port of Yemen

And last but certainly not least, the attacks on the morning of
September 11, 2001.
In case you hadn't figured it out, they hated us before we declared a war on terror. When you have radical Islamicists preaching hate for America and Israel then you have a religious and cultural war. Especially when you have Madrases(I think that is how you spell it) teaching young children to hate America. That is a cultural and religious problem.

He's right, in my opinion we've just become aware of more terrorism because of the war in iraq. It's always been there.

For all of those who think that the war on terror is just a joke, how about reading this.


http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/08/17/terror.charges/index.html


LONDON, England (CNN) -- British police have charged eight men arrested two weeks ago with terrorism-related offenses, including conspiracy to commit murder.

They are also accused of conspiring to commit public nuisance by "using radioactive materials, toxic gases, chemicals and/or explosives to cause a disruption."

In addition, one of the men is charged with possessing plans that could have been used as the basis for a terror attack on financial institutions in New York and Washington.

He and another man face a similar charge concerning a financial building in New Jersey.

The eight men were arrested on August 3 during raids in northwest London, Hertfordshire, Bedfordshire and Lancashire. They were held under the Terrorism Act 2000.

In a statement, London Metropolitan Police identified the men as: Dhiren Barot, 32, Mohammed Naveed Bhatti, 24, Abdul Aziz Jalil, 31, Omar Abdul Rehman, 20, Junade Feroze, 28, Mohammed ul Haq, 25, Qaisar Shaffi, 25, and Nadeem Tarmohammed, 26.

The eight men are scheduled to appear in court Wednesday.

All eight are accused of conspiring together and with unknown persons to commit murder and conspiring to commit public nuisance by "using radioactive materials, toxic gases, chemicals and/or explosives to cause a disruption, fear or injury."

Barot and Tarmohammed were charged with possessing documents or information that could be "useful to a person committing or preparing an act of terrorism" because authorities said they had a "reconnaissance plan concerning the Prudential Building in New Jersey."

Barot also was charged with possessing a reconnaissance plan concerning the New York Stock Exchange, Citigroup in New York and the International Monetary Fund in Washington, the statement said.

It said Barot had "two notebooks containing information on explosives, poisons, chemicals and related matters."

Shaffi was charged with possessing information or documents that could aid someone preparing a terror attack because he was found to have "an extract of the Terrorists' Handbook, containing information on the preparation of chemicals, explosive recipes and other information about explosives," the statement said.

The police statement said the men, "on diverse days" between January 1, 2000, and August 4, 2004, "conspired together and with other persons unknown to murder other persons."

A ninth man, Matthew Philip Monks, "is being charged" with possession of a prohibited weapon, the statement said.

U.S. praises UK authorities
U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft said the Justice Department had been working closely with British authorities and other allies in the war on terror on this matter.

"We commend the United Kingdom's action today in bringing criminal charges against individuals who may have connections to potential terrorist activities in the United States," Ashcroft said in a statement.

"Our expert team of agents and analysts from the FBI will continue to share information and expertise with their British colleagues."

In addition, prosecutors from the Justice Department's Counterterrorism Section and the U.S. Attorney's Office in Manhattan will explore every aspect of this case and evaluate whether additional charges, including potential charges in the United States, are appropriate," his statement added.

The UK raids followed the August 1 announcement by U.S. Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge that the terror alert level was being raised for financial services facilities in New York, Newark, N.J. and Washington, D.C., because of intelligence information about potential terrorist attacks.

Under the UK's Terrorism Act 2000, 609 people have arrested between September 11, 2001 and June of this year, the Home Office said.

The Home Office said 99 of those had been charged with offenses under the Act, including 38 who were also charged under other legislation. Of the 99 charged, 15 have been convicted.

The remainder were released without charge, bailed to ensure their return, cautioned, charged under other legislation or dealt with under immigration or mental health legislation, the Home Office said.

I can't stand the whole argument about the War on Terror has caused more terrorism. The following events took place before we declared the War on Terror:

The bombing of the Marine barracks in Beirut, Lebanon

The bombing of a PanAm flights over Scotland

The '93 bombing of the World Trade Center

Mogadishu, Somalia; the disaster when 18 Army Rangers were killed.

The bombings of the US Embassies in East Africa

The bombing of the USS Cole in the main port of Yemen

And last but certainly not least, the attacks on the morning of
September 11, 2001.

In case you hadn't figured it out, they hated us before we declared a war on terror. When you have radical Islamicists preaching hate for America and Israel then you have a religious and cultural war. Especially when you have Madrases(I think that is how you spell it) teaching young children to hate America. That is a cultural and religious problem.
I wonder why they hated the US before then? The US has been involved in interventionist activities in the Middle East for over 50 years. Was it the Arabs who started this conflict way back when or does the US have some complicity?

A History Lesson: U.S. Intervention in the Middle East Has Always Ended Up Being a Disaster for American Interests

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0210-07.htm

This is just the Middle East we are talking about here, there have been many examples of US intervention, all over the world since WW 2.

So don't play innocent. The stakes keep getting higher and higher?

When you have radical Islamicists preaching hate for America and Israel then you have a religious and cultural war. Especially when you have Madrases(I think that is how you spell it) teaching young children to hate America. That is a cultural and religious problem.
What the hell are YOU preaching here?

1."And Yes, if it werent for the U.S., the Allies would have lost both world wars" No offense to your veterans, but what exactly did America do in WWI? The real people that won the war would be the armies that were in it from the start. Which includes us Canadians, who were without a doubt the best fighting force in, at least, the commonwealth, if not the war. :D

2. Whatever, the U.S. is still the msot free.And even if we ARENT, which we are That sure is true. What with the massacres of the natives, hardcore racism before the 70's, Not abolishing slavery for a long time.. etc. Yeah, real free. In my opinion, The U.S. is equal freedomwise with a lot of nations.

3. the greeks werent so good at it Well, they were pretty freakin' good, considering the time, and in what ways weren't they good at it?

4. I still think its because Americans think that we are above the rest of the world, so we dont need to fight wars You better be including yourself in that statement, 'cause you are the epiphany of person thinking that he's above the world. Grow up. There's way more to the world than the states.


#1 The war is baisically a tie until the U.S. sent over a few million troops. We ALSO supplied the allies. The U.S. Economy built quite alot of weapons for the allies.

#2 Hey, if we are gonna talk about past injustices, i could really dish out alot of dirt on your country (whatever it is). WE are talking bout the PRESENT!

#3 WEll there WAS the whole thing about slaves, women, non-land owners, and peopel younger than 40 something not be able to vote.

#4 Hey listen, Bub! Ive lived in more countries than you have, and i know more about the world than you, too. I KNOW there is alot more than the states. When youve been to Pakistan, Bangladesh, Mozambique, Zimbabwe, India, Panama, AND The United states, THEN you can tell me to grow up and theres more to life that the U.S.

I can't stand the whole argument about the War on Terror has caused more terrorism.

Unfortunately, whether or not you can stand it, deaths from terrorism are on the increase. (Not counting attacks on US forces in Iraq!)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A60660-2004Jun22.html

No one is claiming that there was no terrorism before 9/11 - the Brits and the French, in particular, have a long history of living with terrorism.

BTW - most of the madrassas that educated the Taliban are located in Pakistan and paid for by Saudi oil money.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/saudi/analyses/madrassas.html

Why is Iraq the "central front" of this war on (some) terror?

what ARE you preaching indeed?

that it is wrong to have an opinion against america? Oh, right, i forgot. We're AMERICA, the great democracy, a model to the rest of the world. People should be thanking us, especially the ones whose country we invaded, whose leader we de-throned (like it or not, Saddam Hussein was still iraq's leader) and who's oppresion we have supported by our un-compromising support of Israel, even when an international court rules they are in the wrong?

that it is right to invade a soverign nation just so we feel like we're doing something againsts terrorism? By invading iraq, with all our patriosism and unity that you mentioned in your inital post, we have created more terrorists than there were before. and so the answer is to keep attacking these people whos homeland we are occupying? We need to actually EXTEND our stay in Iraq rather than let our soldier's return to their families, jobs, and homes? How dare we 'whine' about 1000 men dying, they're just statistics!!! It doesn't matter one bit that we're over there bombing houses SUSPECTED of having insurgents inside, killing people; our own soldiers are dying for a cause that is becoming increasingly questionable. And now some of us are getting cold feet because we're just little liberal sissy's who don't understand that "This is WAR, man, we need to get those bastards for what they did to us!!" What you obviously don't understand is that acting according to this attitude causes the families and friends of all those innocent people we just happen to kill, whose houses we just happen to bomb because we thought there we're insurgents inside it to say the exact same thing, thus not only wasting money, innocent lives, and oh, right, creating all those statistics who don't mind getting killed or maimed for a quesitonable cause, but inflaming this anti-american sentiment that you speak of. for every action, there is an reaction, and muslims preaching anti-americanism is the direct result of our actions. You and about half of the country seems to not understand that. But, don't feel so bad. You have something in common with our great leader.

#2 Hey, if we are gonna talk about past injustices, i could really dish out alot of dirt on your country (whatever it is). WE are talking bout the PRESENT!

Look, what I said was said to support my point, not to insult the U.S. In fact, we did everything that I said the U.S. did. My problem with you is how arrogant you are. I'm fine, no, glad if you say that you're proud to be an American, because patriots are wonderful. It's just when you say how America is the most free nation on earth, and always has. That's not right. For being such an international person, you sure don't realize that there are a lot of countries that are just as free as the states. Perhaps it's because you've been to a lot of places that aren't free. Oh, and please dig up some dirt on Canada. Then we could compare who has the more tainted history.

Oh, and please dig up some dirt on Canada.

It's only tangentially related, but I wanted to plug "Louis Riel: A Comic-Strip Biography"

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1896597637/103-3390209-3245465?v=glance

It's only tangentially related, but I wanted to plug "Louis Riel: A Comic-Strip Biography"

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1896597637/103-3390209-3245465?v=glance

Did Publisher's Weekly think that was fiction?

Well, im SORRY if i offended you but the U.S. is at least as free as the other nations of the free world. We fight(and fought) back the armies of Communism, Facism, and Totalarianism for your people. I am an ultra-patriot, that you already know. I am just really saying that without the united states, there would be no free world.

Look, what I said was said to support my point, not to insult the U.S. In fact, we did everything that I said the U.S. did. My problem with you is how arrogant you are. I'm fine, no, glad if you say that you're proud to be an American, because patriots are wonderful. It's just when you say how America is the most free nation on earth, and always has. That's not right. For being such an international person, you sure don't realize that there are a lot of countries that are just as free as the states. Perhaps it's because you've been to a lot of places that aren't free. Oh, and please dig up some dirt on Canada. Then we could compare who has the more tainted history.

Oh, and Canada... well.. uh.. LEts put it this way. What has Canada done for the world? What has it invented. What Evil empires has it crushed? What does it do for others? Besides being the United States largest partner in terms of oil. (yes, Canada is were 17% of the United States oil comes from, more than Saudi Arabia or Venezuela).

BTW - most of the madrassas that educated the Taliban are located in Pakistan and paid for by Saudi oil money.

Where is your evidence? Unless you havent noticed, Hundreds of Pakistani SOldiers have died fighting Terrorists in the Region. Saudi Arabia is the biggest backer of the U.S. on the Arabian Peninsula, as well. many Saudi SOldiers have died fighting terror too. Why is it that everyone ASSUMES that if a country is mostly muslim that its evil? WHY?

Look, what I said was said to support my point, not to insult the U.S. In fact, we did everything that I said the U.S. did. My problem with you is how arrogant you are. I'm fine, no, glad if you say that you're proud to be an American, because patriots are wonderful. It's just when you say how America is the most free nation on earth, and always has. That's not right. For being such an international person, you sure don't realize that there are a lot of countries that are just as free as the states. Perhaps it's because you've been to a lot of places that aren't free. Oh, and please dig up some dirt on Canada. Then we could compare who has the more tainted history.

Ok how about the Mohawks.....

Where is your evidence?

I find it really amusing that you cut out the link to the Frontline program about that.

Other than that, have fun wrestling with your man made of straw.

Oh, and Canada... well.. uh.. LEts put it this way. What has Canada done for the world? What has it invented. What Evil empires has it crushed? What does it do for others? Besides being the United States largest partner in terms of oil. (yes, Canada is were 17% of the United States oil comes from, more than Saudi Arabia or Venezuela).

Well.. I don't know much about our inventions, but here's a link to a site that shows the famous ones... you'll be suprised at what we came up with, like the lightbulb. http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa090100a.htm. For what we do for others... we have the record for most U.N. peacekeeping missions participated in, we gave the world sports like basketball, possibly baseball and hockey. And we must have done more for the world because a lot of people all over the world like us. And for evil empires... well the only evil empires we defeated over the course of our existance would be the Germans in WWI and The Third Reich. We are nowhere near a modern day Sparta, unlike the U.S., which has a large, more war designated army.

Are you saying the US stands for freedom by supporting brutal dictatorships and fuelling global conflicts?

Really, you people live in a delusional self-righteous fantasy land. The US is not really that concerned about democracy or human rights for others. It's prime motivation is to ensure the protection of its economic interests.


It infuriates me when people fail to have the comprehension skills to actually undertand what I wrote. I didn't say America was a utopean wonderland, I was merely saying that we are falling way way way below our ideals. Ideals are okay to have, right? It's okay to want things to be better, right? There are good things and bad things about America, and refusing to look at both is idiotic.

Well, im SORRY if i offended you but the U.S. is at least as free as the other nations of the free world. We fight(and fought) back the armies of Communism, Facism, and Totalarianism for your people. I am an ultra-patriot, that you already know. I am just really saying that without the united states, there would be no free world.

You aren't an ultra-patriot. You're just arrogant.

And we must have done more for the world because a lot of people all over the world like us.
I don't see how that must mean that you have done more for the world. As far as I can tell, the reason people don't hate you is because of what you don't do.

I don't see how that must mean that you have done more for the world. As far as I can tell, the reason people don't hate you is because of what you don't do.

That's still doing something though :D

Well.. I don't know much about our inventions, but here's a link to a site that shows the famous ones... you'll be suprised at what we came up with, like the lightbulb. http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa090100a.htm. For what we do for others... we have the record for most U.N. peacekeeping missions participated in, we gave the world sports like basketball, possibly baseball and hockey. And we must have done more for the world because a lot of people all over the world like us. And for evil empires... well the only evil empires we defeated over the course of our existance would be the Germans in WWI and The Third Reich. We are nowhere near a modern day Sparta, unlike the U.S., which has a large, more war designated army.

Ok, FINE! Canada is the perfect country! (except for america is richer). Happy? HAPPY?

Oh, btw- Basketball was invented in MASSACHUSETTS! Im from that state, i know the entire story. dont make fake claims. Hockey WAS your invention. i only think it was Ice hockey but oh well. Baseball was invented in America too.

You aren't an ultra-patriot. You're just arrogant.

Im NOT Arrogant. Listen, what does it take to convince you people? I did not come into this Thread to talk about "Whos the better patriot". I ALSO didnt come to argue about stupid things. I came here to argue about wheter america has turned gutless or not. I did NOT come to this post with the intenetion of starting a "Whos country is best" argument. You guys (and not Just Salbania) started it.

By the way. I am an Ultra-Patriot. In my opinion the U.S. should rule the world, because we have the closest to perfect government system in the world(my opinion.)

America has lost the will to fight.

There I said it, what are you going to do about it?

We have lost almost a thousand men in Iraq and everyone is crying that it is time to bring the boys home. What happened to the resolve and patriotism that we all had after 9/11/2001?

More than 10,000 men died in the space of an hour at Cold Harbor, Virginia 1864. Approximately 600,000 men died in the American Civil War, more than in the Revolutionary War, Mexican War, WW1, and WW2 combined.

Tens of thousands died fighting for the freedom of the world on one morning June 6, 1944.

America is the greatest country in the world with the most freedom both politically and economically of any country in the history of the world. But we would rather surrender it all because oh it must be our fault that Islamic murderers are hijacking our planes to hit our skyscrapers.

Whether anybody wants to realize it or not this war on terror is a religious and cultural war. It is not the Cold War where we could just wait the other side out. The people who are attacking us would rather see us all dead than have us enjoy our freedom. And we worry about whether we are causing more terror by going over there and attacking them.

Newsflash: What about Beirut? What about the first World Trade Center bombing? What about the bombings of the US embassies in East Africa? What about Mogadishu? What about the attack on the USS Cole? Correct me if I'm wrong but those events happened before Afghanistan and Iraq were freed from their oppressive regimes.

If it were me running a news station I would show more video from the morning of 9/11/2001. I would show the planes flying into the buildings because people need to be reminded of what happened that morning because it seems a lot of people have forgotten.

It is either that or face another horrific day like 9/11/2001. And we will have another day like that if we don't step up to the plate and defend our freedom from those who would deny it from us like our forefathers.
It is not all America, it is the American Left who never had the will to fight for this nation, and now are trying to drag down the rest of America to get their "War Hero" elected.

America has lost the will to fight.

There I said it, what are you going to do about it?

Disagree with you. Why do you ask?

Unfortunately, it would be a "meritocracy" that judged people more by the colour of their skins or their religion or political views than by any actual merit. It would be a meritocracy run by people who have no achievements to be proud of, who have never done anything worthwhile, and who are really just consuming oxygen that could be better used elsewhere. Because of this crippling lack of talent or achievement, they are reduced to trying to take "pride" in their ethnic origins or the hue of their epidermis. One might as well take pride in the size of one's feet.

Fascism, while I find it morally repugnant, is not connected to racism.

You can have a fascist military/police state without racist overtones. Nationalism is based on nationality, not ethnic origins. You could be a good American Nationalist regardless of race.

That doesn't make Fascism any less horrible, but the basis of it is national pride and heirarchy, not skin colour.

Ok, FINE! Canada is the perfect country! (except for america is richer). Happy? HAPPY?

Oh, btw- Basketball was invented in MASSACHUSETTS! Im from that state, i know the entire story. dont make fake claims. Hockey WAS your invention. i only think it was Ice hockey but oh well. Baseball was invented in America too.

Canada isn't the perfect country, far from it. (I should know, I live here.) Our healthcare is slowly becoming privatized because the Federal Government wants to lower taxes. They demand funding mustn't drop to public healthcare and then cut their own funding for it. (Funding was supposed to be 50/50 between federal and provincial governments, but then they' reduce their share, which over burdens the funding from the provincial governments. Instead the money goes to debt relief.)

Basketball was invented by a Canadian living in the US while he worked at the YMCA.

If you said this to me in real life, I would grab the nearest blunt object and beat you until I really opened your mind. Hmmm...at least we liberals (I hate that term by the way, because in Canada, a liberal is just a little less right wing than a conservative) don't go around threatening severe physical violence/murder because we don't like your ideas.

You liberal a-holes preach acceptance and tolerance, but then you start slamming anyone who opposes your beliefs with cliche insults and generalizations. Nothing like countering cliche insults and generalizations with...um...MORE cliche insults and genralizations....

And, by the way, about the "dark-skinned fellers" crack, I doubt you could tell an Iraqi from your own turd, you communist.

I think it's hilarious that people still use "communist" as an insult... or "pinko"...I thought the U.S killed communism...or thought it did...and isn't the new enemy those damn A-rabs? I don't know...at least most lefties who feel they NEED to insult right-wingers at least come up with something funny...instead of:

liberal a-holes
communist

Yeah, that's just boring.
I don't agree with you. Please don't threaten to bash my head in.

Canada isn't the perfect country, far from it. (I should know, I live here.) Our healthcare is slowly becoming privatized because the Federal Government wants to lower taxes. They demand funding mustn't drop to public healthcare and then cut their own funding for it. (Funding was supposed to be 50/50 between federal and provincial governments, but then they' reduce their share, which over burdens the funding from the provincial governments. Instead the money goes to debt relief.)

Basketball was invented by a Canadian living in the US while he worked at the YMCA.

i know canada isnt perfect, i just said that to shut him up...

And i never knew that it was invented by canadian while he wroked at the YMCA... but it was still invented in america ;).

i know canada isnt perfect, i just said that to shut him up...

And i never knew that it was invented by canadian while he wroked at the YMCA... but it was still invented in america ;).

Aw screw it. Argument's over. I think an episode of the Simpsons said it best when Homer called us America jr. Oh and I think I figured out that Basketball thing.. invented by a Canadian, first played by a bunch of Americans. So, no country can claim the invention of it.

Well.. I don't know much about our inventions, but here's a link to a site that shows the famous ones... you'll be suprised at what we came up with, like the lightbulb. http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa090100a.htm. For what we do for others... we have the record for most U.N. peacekeeping missions participated in, we gave the world sports like basketball, possibly baseball and hockey. And we must have done more for the world because a lot of people all over the world like us. And for evil empires... well the only evil empires we defeated over the course of our existance would be the Germans in WWI and The Third Reich. We are nowhere near a modern day Sparta, unlike the U.S., which has a large, more war designated army.
Man did your history books say the USA had 53 states, too? Wow are you out there.

Hey guys, can we go back to the nice conversation from before about how america is becoming whimpy?

Wait, is that a good thing...?

Im NOT Arrogant. Listen, what does it take to convince you people? I did not come into this Thread to talk about "Whos the better patriot". I ALSO didnt come to argue about stupid things. I came here to argue about wheter america has turned gutless or not. I did NOT come to this post with the intenetion of starting a "Whos country is best" argument. You guys (and not Just Salbania) started it.

By the way. I am an Ultra-Patriot. In my opinion the U.S. should rule the world, because we have the closest to perfect government system in the world(my opinion.)

I'm an American too, and I don't believe the words "perfect" and "government" go together.

Rule the world? Why the hell would we want to do that? 6 Billion people under one government? What a mess. Do we really have the right to rule people who do not share our history, our culture, or even our language? How would we go about ruling them, would each country be considered a state? God, think of the size of congress then. Would we seize the world by force? Do the people we annex get a vote on the matter? Do you care?

I'm sorry, and I'm not saying YOU'RE stupid, but this is one of the stupedest, most impractical, jingoistic, naive, and arrogant ideas I've ever heard.

No, ruling the world sounds neither useful nor practical at this point in time. I'm not saying that the US or any other country should rule at any point in time either. Here goes my tangent. If or when humans are able to colonize other planets. I'm talking about a bunch of them and far away. That would be the time to have a United Earth Government. Woot! Spiffy name too. Well that's not gonna happen for a while if ever so...talk of any one group ruling the world is a moot point and very childish even compared with my Sci-Fi banter.

Ruling the world is a bit extreme. But Britain managed to rule over a pretty sizable chunk of it for some time. we won't go into the posatives and negatives of this, but just a note to say that one country possibly two cold pretty much run the world. It may however run it's course and split again but it is not such a stupid idea. Not however with the US being one of the countries, now that would be scary!

Although most people accuse America of being Imperialists, Imperialism as it was a long time ago is no longer possible. Retaliation for the annexing of that much territory would do too much damage to be worthwile. And what's up with the constant US bashing. Although the foreign policy may be a bit out of whack, it's not as bad as everyone keeps saying.

Man did your history books say the USA had 53 states, too? Wow are you out there.

What are you talking about?

I'm an American too, and I don't believe the words "perfect" and "government" go together.

Rule the world? Why the hell would we want to do that? 6 Billion people under one government? What a mess. Do we really have the right to rule people who do not share our history, our culture, or even our language? How would we go about ruling them, would each country be considered a state? God, think of the size of congress then. Would we seize the world by force? Do the people we annex get a vote on the matter? Do you care?

I'm sorry, and I'm not saying YOU'RE stupid, but this is one of the stupedest, most impractical, jingoistic, naive, and arrogant ideas I've ever heard.


I know :D. I wish i coud ruel the world though...

By the way, it IS Posible. Look at Rome. It conquered baisically 80% of the Known world at that time, and allowed for many different languages, culutres, and religions to exist in its borders. PLUS it lasted for 700 years.

Instead of Having the U.S. Conquer the world however, it would be better if it was a decision made by the U.N.

I know :D. I wish i coud ruel the world though...

I hear ya. I'm a liberal, but I often think to myself how great the world would be if I ruled it. Mostly I think about all the hot young virgins...and the slightly more mature, very experienced courtesans...that would be at my...er...service.

The only really good form of government is an enlightened and incorruptible dictatorship. The problem of assuring that that is what you'll actually get, and that it remains so, is the reason for it being a very bad idea.

I hear ya. I'm a liberal, but I often think to myself how great the world would be if I ruled it. Mostly I think about all the hot young virgins...and the slightly more mature, very experienced courtesans...that would be at my...er...service.

The only really good form of government is an enlightened and incorruptible dictatorship. The problem of assuring that that is what you'll actually get, and that it remains so, is the reason for it being a very bad idea.

lol, but what you say is very true. Very VERY true.

Here you can see that America has plenty of gut's (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5670919/) left. :D

More than 10,000 men died in the space of an hour at Cold Harbor, Virginia 1864. Approximately 600,000 men died in the American Civil War, more than in the Revolutionary War, Mexican War, WW1, and WW2 combined.

Yeah cause you didn't get into the WW until later than everyone else...

America is the greatest country in the world with the most freedom both politically and economically of any country in the history of the world.

Okay, you go live in your little dreamland where that is true.

Newsflash: What about Beirut? What about the first World Trade Center bombing? What about the bombings of the US embassies in East Africa? What about Mogadishu? What about the attack on the USS Cole?

What about Nicaragua? What about Chile? What about Cambodia? What about all those other places the Americans went riding in to royally f**k up a perfectly happy and succesful nation? Not too Christian of them...

Let's see, you berate this guy for calling Bush fans stupid. In the same post you
- threaten him with violence
- call him an "a-hole"
- call him a communist (is this a code word for "evil" in America?)

And you've got to admit, statements like "You're either with us or with the terrorists" don't make your guy look very good.

I realize how stupid my post was. I apologize: I was feeling especially anti-liberal that day. You see, I have a very anti-Bush teacher, who criticizes Bush every chance he gets. The sad thing is, he's a math teacher, and yet somehow he always works in something about Bush. For example: "As you see, class, x is greater than y. Of course, in President Bush's world, x are evil Republicans, and y are the innoncent Iraqis. No matter how much the Iraqis try to end the war, Bush pushes and pushes, spending billions of taxpayer dollars and hundreds of lives, simply to prove that x is greater than y! Vote Kerry! (at least, something to that effect) Even if I could oppose his opinion, which I would instantly be chastised for talking back, it wouldn't matter, since most of our class are anti-Bush (of course, only because that's what MTV tells them. Seriously, I asked a girl why she supported Kerry. "Because I hate Bush!" "Why do you hate Bush?" "....umm...I don't know..." :headbang: Anyway, I digress. I had to vent my anger, and this was the unlucky recipient of my spleen.

Here you can see that America has plenty of gut's (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5670919/) left. :D

:eek: Holy shit! No, seriously, holy shit! Words canot express the gluttonous gluttony of that dude! I mean, damn, he had to be weighed on a freakin' livestock scale! It's guys like him that make the rest of us obese lazy Americans look bad! :eek: