NationStates Jolt Archive

Many fellow Americans say they refuse to pledge alligence to the flag that is waved during wars such as the Vietnam war and the Persian Gulf war. They refuse to pledge alligence to a flag that represents a horrible history, and a horrible government.

I look at the flag, and go beyond what other people see. I don't see Iraqis being bombed. I don't see gays being opressed. I don't see a horrible education.

Know what I see? I see 13 stripes, red and white. I see 50 stars.

Know what those stripes represent? The 13 colonies that won their independence from Britain.

Know what those 50 stars represent? 50 unified states.

So when pledge alligence to the flag of the United States of America, I do not pledge to kill, I do not swear myself to protect the current government. I do not swear that my country's history is glorious.

I pledge alligence to the flag that represents a nation's ideals, created way back in 1776. Those ideals include, but are not limited to...a nation that defends itself with war when 100% forced to. A nation whose citizens vote. A nation who helps out his own brother. A nation that stands together and tall through thick and thin. A nation that looks forward, and does not limit itself.

That's the flag I pledge alligence to.


So, anyone else looking forward to Phelps beating Ian?

Those who refuse to pledge allegiance to the flag, and those who say "hey, the ideals are still good" BOTH, in my opinion, miss the point -- the ones focused on the ideals fail to see where we are falling short, and the ones who only see where we fall short fail to see we have the wherewithall to fix that.

I don't believe in burning the flag, or refusing to pledge allegiance to it -- but I do believe in being honest enough about whether we need to wash it.

Here, outside of the USA (although in the 51st state), we often ridicule the USA for its arrogance and total lack of judgment or foresight. However, I have to admit that Americans are actually proud of the country, with a real sense of respect for the institutions, and perhaps this flag ritual has something to do with it. I would love it if the people of my country had the same pride in their country that yours do. The Union Jack is more often associated with far-right parties who want to deport anybody who looks foreign than my great nation. Having said that, dont mistake me for some kind of Yankeephile. I have huge issues with your foreign policy, etc, but i'm just trying to be relevant, and hey, credit where it's due.

Wouldn't Puerto Rico be closer to being called the 51st state. I myself (and I am an American) have never heard of Great Britan being referred to as the 51st state.

And on the topic of the flag, I agree with Colodia on why we say the pledge.

It's ok to have issues with the foreign policy of the USA, after all, a lot of Americans have issues with the foreign policy as well. One of them, in fact, is currently running for President of the USA. (Of course I have issues with his issues, and I also have issues with his idea of foreign policy as well.)

I'm a old fart whose father was an older fart. I went through the Boy Scouts, and I know all the neuances of the law of how the flag of the United States of America should be treated. And I am known to be a little anal when it comes to the respect of the flag. But as George Cohan once wrote, "You're a grand old flag, you're a high flying rag ..." until someone made him change the words because they didn't want to call the flag a rag.

The "plege of allegience" is to more than just a rag, even if that rag is a grand old flag, but "to the republic for which it stands." Not the current administration, or all the actions of previous administrations, but the republic, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all born and und born!

I don't say the pledge because of the words. "I Pledge allegence to the flag of the US of A, and to the republic for which it stands" I certantly do not! At this point in time, our last 50yrs are terrible in gov and policies. "One nation under god." God doesn't exsist in my oppinion and should not be forced on us, besides, that was designed to fight the soviets because they were "a godless nation." "With liberty and justice for all" Really? Is that why we are oppressing gays and wemen (look it up in our laws, wemen do not have the same rights as men, ex. they are not allowed to serve on aircraft carriers and subs. also other things I won't go in to.) That is why I do not say the pledge, because it represents so many things bad and nothing really good.

Wouldn't Puerto Rico be closer to being called the 51st state. I myself (and I am an American) have never heard of Great Britan being referred to as the 51st state.

And on the topic of the flag, I agree with Colodia on why we say the pledge.
Thank you.

And what he means by referring to Britain as the 51st state is that Blair, the PM of Britain, sucks up to Bush. That's my best answer for that.

First I think you can start by spelling things correctly. I mean how hard is it to type the 'o' key in women. I mean it looks a lot more professional. And to finally add, I myself am an Atheist as well, but I have no problem with saying "under God" although I do think the pledge should be restored to it's original state, for the sake of tradition. I myself though have no problem with "In God we Trust" on our money and what have you.

And as for not allowing women to serve on subs and what not, well... I think that'd probably be in their best interest. I mean let's say you have one sub, with one or two women on it, and the rest of the crew men. You're out at sea for a long time... I'm pretty sure you can do the math. I think it'd be tough to live in such close quarters with each sex on the sub but that's just my opinion.

I say it because I love my country.

look it up in our laws, wemen do not have the same rights as men, ex. they are not allowed to serve on aircraft carriers and subs. also other things I won't go in to

love the “Weman” Comment … lol you rag on the treatment of them but cant even spell the gender correctly (and if it is supposed to be a joke its rather low brow and degrading even in a satire sense) also don’t get me wrong I not a spelling freak because I KNOW that I spell horribly but still

Also women ARE allowed on aircraft carriers (though the most basic flaw in your argument is the “law” part because it is not in LAW it is in military regulations … which are different)

Also I think one of the big reasons for not allowing them on subs is rather a conflict … there is NOT enough room as is for the men … no way they would be able to provide separate quarters (which seem rather necessary to me) bunks are already stacked three high in a room WAY to small for them


But those are the particulars … I agree that women and minorities are STILL not being treated fairly but there are flaws in a lot of society … and generally we are working towards the “Ideals” the best we can.

Why pledge allegiance to a flag? I mean, it's a piece of cloth. It's inanimate. Wouldn't it make a bit more sense to pledge allegiance to your country, and what it represents, and just leave out the fidelity to something that may represent the country, but doesn't really do anything. I mean, a flag just sits there, or flaps around a little. How do you show allegiance (fidelity and loyalty owed to a feudal lord or nation) for a flag? Make sure it doesn't get dirty or burned or something? That sounds kinda silly, and a little bit like idolatry.
PS: Canada's the 51st state, or at least that seemed like the plan when the States tried to "liberate" it in 1812, and with Brian Mulrooney's pioneering free trade deal. (And we're putting the eraser to the border.... or at least that's what a lot of paranoid Liberals said. I'm currently still in my bomb shelter waiting for the godless Republicans to burst through my door and steal Canada's economy. Now where's that tin foil hat?)

http://www.poofcat.com/july.html

Ladies and Gentlemen. Click the link as to why we say the Pledge of Alliegence. Granted this was done before Hawaii and Alaska was admitted into the Union!

I Pledge Alliegence to the Flag because I'm an American and will defend this country that I love.

Here, outside of the USA (although in the 51st state), we often ridicule the USA for its arrogance.

A lot of Europeons (but not all, and possibly not even most) are pretty arrogant, too, especially ones in this forum (not you, but others who I'll respectfully refrain from naming).

Wouldn't Puerto Rico be closer to being called the 51st state. I myself (and I am an American) have never heard of Great Britan being referred to as the 51st state.

There was a film called the 51st State, where someone referred to the UK as the 51st State, that might be it

A lot of Europeons (but not all, and possibly not even most) are pretty arrogant, too, especially ones in this forum (not you, but others who I'll respectfully refrain from naming).

True, many are, especially in this forum, but thats just because you can be arrogant, express extreme views etc here without being afraid of what the people around you in RL would think of you.
i don't have to pledge alleigence to anything here in Britain, but i can understand why people would see a flag as a symbol of something like their ideals, nation etc

A lot of Europeons (but not all, and possibly not even most) are pretty arrogant, too, especially ones in this forum (not you, but others who I'll respectfully refrain from naming).

But of course, every nation has its pompous asses. ;)

But of course, every nation has its pompous asses. ;)

This is true Roach. I could name a few from the USA but I won't.

I am deeply patriotic and love my country, and I think everyone on the planet should feel the same way about their respective nation(s). People in the US should sing the Star-Spangled Banner with tears in their eyes and pride in their hearts, people in the UK should sing, God Save the Queen and feel the same emotions, etc. Likewise, everyone should love his/her country this strongly, or at least, I think so. However, because the Pledge of Allegiance was written by an anti-American internationalistic socialist, I never say it. I prefer the Star-Spangled Banner, instead.

Patriotism is a good thing, but ultra-nationalism (thinking your country is superior to others', hating other countries, and believing your nation should rule the world, etc.) is a bad, bad, bad thing.

This is true Roach. I could name a few from the USA but I won't.

I try not to be, though. :(

I don't say the pledge of allegience because I do not feel compelled to show my nationalist loyalty by chanting in a pseudo-religious fashion, nor by singing. I have better things to do with my time than be a slogan slinger.

When do Americans have to say the Pledge of Alleigence? Is it a school thing or what?

When do Americans have to say the Pledge of Alleigence? Is it a school thing or what?

You are correct.

I am deeply patriotic and love my country, and I think everyone on the planet should feel the same way about their respective nation(s). People in the US should sing the Star-Spangled Banner with tears in their eyes and pride in their hearts, people in the UK should sing, God Save the Queen and feel the same emotions, etc. Likewise, everyone should love his/her country this strongly, or at least, I think so. However, because the Pledge of Allegiance was written by an anti-American internationalistic socialist, I never say it. I prefer the Star-Spangled Banner, instead.

Patriotism is a good thing, but ultra-nationalism (thinking your country is superior to others', hating other countries, and believing your nation should rule the world, etc.) is a bad, bad, bad thing.
Oh dear god he was a socialist. God save us from the pink menace!

Do you have to, or can you just stand there while everyone else says it?(Like singing hymns etc for anyone who has ever been in a school assembly and they've decided you should sing them)

Do you have to, or can you just stand there while everyone else says it?(Like singing hymns etc for anyone who has ever been in a school assembly and they've decided you should sing them)
I don't think you even have to stand...

Oh dear god he was a socialist. God save us from the pink menace!

Yeah, damn those filthy commies! Curse them! They may try to help the poor(although i'd have to admit not all of the poor deserve help, those lazy idiots. Some do though...)

:upyours:
Hiya FSB.

Oh dear god he was a socialist. God save us from the pink menace!

Slightly off topic(if we weren't there already) why do people on this forum refer to communists/socialists etc as pinkos. Thought they were 'reds' :confused: btw, sorry for taking the mick, couldn't resist :)

When do Americans have to say the Pledge of Alleigence? Is it a school thing or what?
Yes, in elementary and junior high (not so sure about High School yet though, I haven't begun 9th grade yet) we usually say the pledge every morning to start the day. Although many kids just see it as routine, no better than schoolwork. They do it, sit back down, life goes on. I hardley think that my peers think too deeply about the words they say everyday.

Of course, not every kid does it. Some joke around and just mouth it, or replace the words with other odd sayings ("I pledge alligence to Queen Frag, and her mighty state of hysteria" is probably the best one)

Slightly off topic(if we weren't there already) why do people on this forum refer to communists/socialists etc as pinkos. Thought they were 'reds' :confused: btw, sorry for taking the mick, couldn't resist :)

Commies are red, socialists are pink. Socialists follow a lighter (hence, pink) version of communism in most people's eyes.

Yes, in elementary and junior high (not so sure about High School yet though, I haven't begun 9th grade yet) we usually say the pledge every morning to start the day. Although many kids just see it as routine, no better than schoolwork. They do it, sit back down, life goes on. I hardley think that my peers think too deeply about the words they say everyday.

Of course, not every kid does it. Some joke around and just mouth it, or replace the words with other odd sayings ("I pledge alligence to Queen Frag, and her mighty state of hysteria" is probably the best one)

I only had to say it in kindergarten. :confused:

Commies are red, socialists are pink. Socialists follow a lighter (hence, pink) version of communism in most people's eyes.
Ah, ok, it all falls into place now...

Slightly off topic(if we weren't there already) why do people on this forum refer to communists/socialists etc as pinkos. Thought they were 'reds' :confused: btw, sorry for taking the mick, couldn't resist :)

I never heard anyone call a socialist a pinko before. I thought only communists were pinkoes, but I could be wrong. :confused:

What do socialism and communism have to do with why or why not somebody says the pledge of allegiance, though?

What do socialism and communism have to do with why or why not somebody says the pledge of allegiance, though?
I made it all ok when i said 'Slightly off topic(if we weren't there already)'. ;)

Think it started when you said the Pledge of Alleigence was written by a socialist, and so you prefered to sing the Star-Spangled Banner. Thats when the whole socialist thing started. Dunno if being a socialist/communist would make you less likely to say the Pledge of Alleigence though..., suppose it depends on what the Pledge says

I am deeply patriotic and love my country, and I think everyone on the planet should feel the same way about their respective nation(s). People in the US should sing the Star-Spangled Banner with tears in their eyes and pride in their hearts, people in the UK should sing, God Save the Queen and feel the same emotions, etc. Likewise, everyone should love his/her country this strongly, or at least, I think so. However, because the Pledge of Allegiance was written by an anti-American internationalistic socialist, I never say it. I prefer the Star-Spangled Banner, instead.

Patriotism is a good thing, but ultra-nationalism (thinking your country is superior to others', hating other countries, and believing your nation should rule the world, etc.) is a bad, bad, bad thing.

I agree totally Roach! I know when I say the pledge I get a chill that ripples down my back and I start to cry when I hear the Star Spangled Banner Play.

Yes, in elementary and junior high (not so sure about High School yet though, I haven't begun 9th grade yet) we usually say the pledge every morning to start the day. Although many kids just see it as routine, no better than schoolwork. They do it, sit back down, life goes on. I hardley think that my peers think too deeply about the words they say everyday.

Of course, not every kid does it. Some joke around and just mouth it, or replace the words with other odd sayings ("I pledge alligence to Queen Frag, and her mighty state of hysteria" is probably the best one)

I'm saying it in highschool. I don't know about your school but in our school, you do have to stand up when its said. You don't have to say it, but you do have to stand!

Have fun in Highschool. giggles

So, anyone else looking forward to Phelps beating Ian?

Too bad Ian didn't read this before going off and whipping Phelp. ;)