NationStates Jolt Archive

Why is the US so anti-sex? I don't understand. They seem to be terrified of it. Any thoughts?

Highest teen birth rate, and we're anti-sex?

Have you heard of this thing called the 'Porn Industry'?
I would give you some links, but I would be banned.
Just go to Google and type 'XXX', you should get some results.

Highest teen birth rate, and we're anti-sex?

we are culturally conflicted.

Highest teen birth rate, and we're anti-sex?

I mean American culture is sex-negative. Teenagers, though prone to objectifying and commodifying, are significantly less sex-negative than the adults. It is the adults who control things, though, and their influence is clear: the US as a culture is very sex-negative.

Where in other countries, nudity on non-cable/satellite TV stations is allowed, here it isn't. Even other authoritarian capitalist countries aren't as bad as the US here. Why are adults, at least, so anti-sex?

I believe it can be traced to us being so sex-obsessed (for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction), seeing our teen birth rate skyrocket above others, and sex becoming far more common in our culture, some are coming to believe we are headed to the "destruction of our civilization", they do not represent the mainstream.

I would give you some links, but I would be banned.


My point exactly.

My point exactly.
Must protect the children. Nevermind that this only makes them worse and more likely to have unprotected sex (trust me), we must protect them.

Except that not all the mods are American...

Have you heard of this thing called the 'Porn Industry'?
I would give you some links, but I would be banned.
Just go to Google and type 'XXX', you should get some results.

and how many towns across the country have banned porn stores? how many politicians get themselves elected on a platform of defending 'our values' against sin and vice? the 11th circut court just upheld laws banning the sale of sex toys.

I'm not against sex but I am against queers and child molesters.

I mean American culture is sex-negative. Teenagers, though prone to objectifying and commodifying, are significantly less sex-negative than the adults. It is the adults who control things, though, and their influence is clear: the US as a culture is very sex-negative.

Where in other countries, nudity on non-cable/satellite TV stations is allowed, here it isn't. Even other authoritarian capitalist countries aren't as bad as the US here. Why are adults, at least, so anti-sex?

No, US is afraid of nudity... not sex. Look at all the prime time shows on basic cable... all of them have intense sexuality... but any non-sexual nudity is thoroughly censored.

It has to do with the United State's national origin with ultra-repressive Puritan values. Religious doctrine melded with laws and customs governing decency, and it's been self-reinforcing ever since.

and how many towns across the country have banned porn stores? how many politicians get themselves elected on a platform of defending 'our values' against sin and vice? the 11th circut court just upheld laws banning the sale of sex toys.

Is that one of the laws where you can sell them, but only if they're gag gifts and not actually being sold as "sex toys"? I heard about a case in Texas (I think), where a woman was selling the toys and no one cared until someone asked her how to use them and she explained it - then it was morally depraved.

and how many towns across the country have banned porn stores? how many politicians get themselves elected on a platform of defending 'our values' against sin and vice? the 11th circut court just upheld laws banning the sale of sex toys.

Ummm...not in Oregon...or in Arizona (Where I used to, and currently, live. Respectivly) Havent seen any of those particular politicians in either state.

I'm not against sex but I am against queers and child molesters.

I'm against child molesters too, but what is wrong with gay people? If they want it that way, it's really none of our buissness.

It has to do with the United State's national origin with ultra-repressive Puritan values. Religious doctrine melded with laws and customs governing decency, and it's been self-reinforcing ever since.

Then I hate puritans. They ruined things for us healthy, non-self-hating people.

Then I hate puritans. They ruined things for us healthy, non-self-hating people.

It just so happens I am puritan and you have offended me. I will now blow the entire thing out of proportion by whining about how offensive you are, and steering the entire thread off course.

I hate you and maybe some of us WANT to be self-hating virgins for the rest of our lives so we can be with God!!!! I WANT to get into heaven!!!

It just so happens I am puritan and you have offended me. I will now blow the entire thing out of proportion by whining about how offensive you are, and steering the entire thread off course.

I really don't care. You have created a culture where sex is considered evil. You have made self-hate the norm. That disgusts me.

I hate you and maybe some of us WANT to be self-hating virgins for the rest of our lives so we can be with God!!!! I WANT to get into heaven!!!

If you want to be an überVulcan ascetic and hate pleasure, fine, but don't hijack US culture!

The u.s. is very sex oppressed and we probably have such a high birth rate just because sex is so hush hush. Alot of kids like to rebel in whatever way they can. Look at how other countries almost all of them have commercials and shows with nudity in them. Basically the only thing that is like other countries is the teen sex comedys and thats what teens think there supposed to be like. They try to act cool and grown up. They mimic whats seemingly cool. If we talked about sex all the time then sex wouldnt be such a big deal. Just like how drinking isnt such a big thing once you turn twenty one. Or why barely anyone starts smoking once they turn eighteen, most people start when its illegal to smoke. When its a big deal. Does anyone agree??

Actually, that makes perfect sense. And sense my parents are very forthcoming about talking about sex, and even permit porn, and a few other dirty habits, I don't think sex is such a big deal.

Hey pury read the bible, only one hundred and fourty four thousand are going to heaven, the rest live on earth after armagedon. WHY DOESNT ANYONE EVER READ THERE BIBLE??

Hey pury read the bible, only one hundred and fourty four thousand are going to heaven, the rest live on earth after armagedon. WHY DOESNT ANYONE EVER READ THERE BIBLE??

The Bible is too authoritarian.

I really don't care. You have created a culture where sex is considered evil. You have made self-hate the norm. That disgusts me.


.....


If you want to be an überVulcan ascetic and hate pleasure, fine, but don't hijack US culture!


Wow. Are you guys bad at spotting sarcasm, or am I bad at presenting it?

(the puritan post was sarcasm, BTW)

Sorry nothing against you I just hate when people believe things that religions made up to keep people in line. A scared person is afraid to commit wrongs. People are so religious without ever studying there bible.

No i got that you were sarcastic well not at first but like after i wrote that comment but i still hate when people think that so i still said it.

No i got that you were sarcastic well not at first but like after i wrote that comment but i still hate when people think that so i still said it.

its such a common belief.

Isnt the bible supposed to be the only authority??

I just hate when people believe things that religions made up to keep people in line. A scared person is afraid to commit wrongs. People are so religious without ever studying there bible.

I agree. I'm not religious, but I say if you're going to be then make sure you know what you're talking about when you say you're religious, and to do that, in christianity's case, you have to read the bible.

Wow. Are you guys bad at spotting sarcasm, or am I bad at presenting it?

(the puritan post was sarcasm, BTW)

No, no. I got it. But then I (used to) live in the veritable buckle of the Bible Belt and sarcasm was our only saving grace. :)

Because its a well known fact that kids being exposed to sex gives them cancer.

Isnt the bible supposed to be the only authority??


If you believe it what it teaches, but some people prefer to teach themselves, rather than let someone (or something) else

Because its a well known fact that kids being exposed to sex gives them cancer.

THAT"S not true!!! if it were, I'd be dead by now!!

Because its a well known fact that kids being exposed to sex gives them cancer.I thought it made you go blind.. er, wait, that's not really sex is it?

now I KNOW that's not true

HIV/AIDS..is a good deterent..

Actually on the contrary when men dont release themselves frequently they are fourty percent more likely to develop prostate cancer when there older.

Yes if you sleep with dirty people dang... HIV shiiiiiiittttt, where are you posting from?? souther africa?? even though ill probably get my cumupance from saying that.

p.s. i think that cancer guy was kidding

I think it's just stupid how there is so much sexual repression in the US. It can't be good for us psychologically.

p.s. i think that cancer guy was kidding

You see right through my sarcasm.

this talk of religion is confusing me even more. so you need to be a self-hating virgin to go to heaven?

Hey pury read the bible, only one hundred and fourty four thousand are going to heaven, the rest live on earth after armagedon. WHY DOESNT ANYONE EVER READ THERE BIBLE??

I read the Bible and that isn't what it says.

Eh this is my view.

The naked body is all right, in fact, according to the Bible, God wants you to be naked and to love our body. But it's what you do with it that's wrong.

Eh, that's me though...

How many books have been written on this subject? Hell, the boon to the book industry alone could explain it; messed up people are good for business. They buy more "stuff" to help them feel better about themselves. Just how many middle-aged men have REALLY nice cars and wives that are starting to look their age? Think about it. How well off would all those self-help gurus be if everyone was satisfied sexually?

Its the duality of violence and sexuality that scares me, you can cut off a breast on TV but you can't show one. Violence is allowed but physical love is all but forbidden.

That's a funny question Letila. I'd sig it.

I read the Bible and that isn't what it says.
It's in Revelation. Twelve tribes send up 12,000. God forbid the Bible would have figurative parts.

Uhh, I live in the states, and I watch porn on HBO all the time.

It comes with extended cable.

IFC is part of basic cable, and they show nudity.

And sex sells everything in the states, it's the main theme in advertisements.

*nods* look at our two hoochie mommas, Britney Spears and Christina Aguilara. The only reason they have their jobs is b/c they sell sex ALL the time. I mean, Britney's videos (some of the few I've seen) could be classified as soft porn. :rolleyes:

Well, actually, I guess Christina does have a pretty strong voice... but she's still a hoochie momma.

Keep in mind that the US is a capitalist country. If nudity was free, no one would buy cable. Then the cable companies would go out of business.

I don't think it's a question of how much sex people in the states are having- I think it's about the cultural attitude towards sex. Americans seem to be ashamed of anything even related to sexuality- including homosexuality, nudity, etc. That, I think, is due to the fact that 80% of American's call themselves Christians. Instead of choosing to live in a free nation where we accept our bodies and ourselves in general, we choose to live by the guidlines of some book. It's odd, though, that Christians would be ashamed of nudity and sex when it's God that supposedly created our bodies and their functions.

I noticed early in the thread a comment about the teen pregnancy rate and I'd like to respond: Isn't it common for taboo issues to be the subject of teenage experimentation? I think so. Whenever you tell someone they can't or should'nt want to have something, you inevitably make them crave it.

Ummm...not in Oregon...or in Arizona (Where I used to, and currently, live. Respectivly) Havent seen any of those particular politicians in either state.

Okay, I know Phoenix hasn't banned porn stores, otherwise we wouldn't have all those Castle Megastore radio ads.

I don't really see how it matters... people can be "self-hating virgins" all they want (though that's not how I'd ever refer to them; I'm surprised to see such a supposedly tolerent anarcho-communist like Letila dipping to such low comments, ah, well, must be the usual double standards). Why does it matter how "society" thinks? Think how you wish, and do what you want, and don't worry so much about them... they can take care of themselves...

If you don't shy away from providing tax cuts for the rich, maintaining death penalty, abolishing social care, meddling in foreign nations' politics, going to war for oil, fucking up the planet's ecosystems and what have you, surely there must be somewhere to draw the line in order to keep feeling morally superior.

It's in Revelation. Twelve tribes send up 12,000. God forbid the Bible would have figurative parts.

Read it again: these are not the only ones who get into Heaven.

Uhh, I live in the states, and I watch porn on HBO all the time.

It comes with extended cable.

IFC is part of basic cable, and they show nudity.

And sex sells everything in the states, it's the main theme in advertisements.
Ayup. But real people aren't supposed to do the nasty unless they're married and in the missionary position. It says so, right there in John Ashcroft's Manual of Morality. Anything else is just... well, unChristian. :cool:

From what I've heard of America it has a pretty contradictory attitude towards sexuality. It turns really young girls into paedophile sex objects with those beauty pageants but in other ways the country's attitudes towards sex is almost puritanical. The UK is somewhere in between. The rest of Europe seems far more open about sex than here. For example, there is a lot less nudity on TV. But it's rather strange as this is one of the most secular countries in Europe.

Actually we are against Fornication (sex before marrriage) and Adultry(sex with someone you aren't married too)
Usually both stop spread of aids and HIV and other sexually tramitted diseases.

Actually we are against Fornication (sex before marrriage) and Adultry(sex with someone you aren't married too)
Usually both stop spread of aids and HIV and other sexually tramitted diseases.AIDS/HIV has nothing to do with the hypocritical attitudes toward sex found in the U.S. If anything the prevailing attitudes and morals contribute to the spread of STDs (as well as unwanted pregnancies) and always have since one isn't a "good girl" if you plan on having sex. And Goddess knows we can't possibly teach anything in schools besides abstinence.

I will tell you which group of people is behind the porn industry. It starts with a big ole J and ends with an E W S. JEWS!

I will tell you which group of people is behind the porn industry. It starts with a big ole J and ends with an E W S. JEWS!

listen nazi, nobody likes you, nobody listens to you, and when you guys have a rally all 7 of you show up and get your asses beat by ara. give it a rest already. or at least keep it to threads not started by an anarchist about subjects that have nothing to do with you.

The only sexual repression is by the old fat white guys in America. :rolleyes:

I will tell you which group of people is behind the porn industry. It starts with a big ole J and ends with an E W S. JEWS!

Put your right arm down and stop heiling Hitler. You think the Jews make hentai, too?

listen nazi, nobody likes you, nobody listens to you, and when you guys have a rally all 7 of you show up and get your asses beat by ara. give it a rest already. or at least keep it to threads not started by an anarchist about subjects that have nothing to do with you.


Which is why you get a concealed carry permit. The robes are for more than just looking keen you know? You keep your short as legally possible 12 gauge shotgun tucked nicely under your robe. The ARA shows up, you let them throw a few bottles and rocks, so when they try to rush you... Self Defense is great. :D

Which is why you get a concealed carry permit. The robes are for more than just looking keen you know? You keep your short as legally possible 12 gauge shotgun tucked nicely under your robe. The ARA shows up, you let them throw a few bottles and rocks, so when they try to rush you... Self Defense is great.

Believe it or not, there have been many Jewish anarchists.

Believe it or not, there have been many Jewish anarchists.


Jews control every radical anti-white, anti-west movement. They corner both sides, the radicals that the moderates sneer at, and then the moderates themselves. Believe it or not, most of the communists and capitalists are jews, that way no matter who wins, the Jewish World Government wins.

Christians are opposed to adultery and premarital sex and things that support or encourage the two.

Jews control every radical anti-white, anti-west movement. They corner both sides, the radicals that the moderates sneer at, and then the moderates themselves. Believe it or not, most of the communists and capitalists are jews, that way no matter who wins, the Jewish World Government wins.

Don't you get it? Berkman had no interest in taking over the world or killing all "white people". He was an anarchist through and through.

Christians are opposed to adultery and premarital sex and things that support or encourage the two.

I could understand adultery, but why premarital sex? It might not be a good idea, but isn't it their choice?

Ok here is America in a nutshell from a true american who has signed my life to the US Air Force to protect my homeland.

America is not the land of the free, its the land of the free to complain. Simple fact. You have more rights to bitch about something then you do to do something. And more people pay attention when you bitch then when you do something.

Actions speak louder then words? Not here they dont. If they did John Kerry wouldnt even be able to hold an office in the local PTA.

But thats just my two cents.

Christians are opposed to adultery and premarital sex and things that support or encourage the two.
They also demand chastity of anyone in their organisation, which is why their are all these child molestation charges. Sexual repression is bad. I agree with adultery, but premarital sex is fine. It just needs to be stressed that you should be ready to accept any and all consequences.

Jews control every radical anti-white, anti-west movement. They corner both sides, the radicals that the moderates sneer at, and then the moderates themselves. Believe it or not, most of the communists and capitalists are jews, that way no matter who wins, the Jewish World Government wins.
So this means the Jews are a diverse group of people. There are probably many Christians among both radicals and moderates. Does this mean world Christian government?

I noticed early in the thread a comment about the teen pregnancy rate and I'd like to respond: Isn't it common for taboo issues to be the subject of teenage experimentation? I think so. Whenever you tell someone they can't or should'nt want to have something, you inevitably make them crave it.

Exactly. That's why reverse psychology exists. And it's also why it's just lunacy, when someone likes to do something, to insist they do it every day when they slow down. Because then they begin to hate it.

I think the best strategy for promoting healthy sexual practice is to say what you'd like, but make it clear that it's okay if they don't do that, and for godsakes tell them about birth control methods! That way, they won't be tempted to use sex as a form of rebellion because you've said it's okay, they will have guidelines as to what you think is right so in their better moods they may be inclined to follow them, and if/when they decide to have sex, they can protect themselves against STDS and unwanted pregnancy.

Of course, a 14-year-old's two cents on attitudes toward sex probably doesn't hold much water with the adult population...

Of course, a 14-year-old's two cents on attitudes toward sex probably doesn't hold much water with the adult population...

Dont feel bad, I'm 24, I've been in the military since I was 18, I'm a Software Engineer, and the "resident expert" on many subjects and no one listens to me either.

In fact, zincite, thats the FIRST problem. We need to LISTEN to the 14 year olds and say hey, what are you doing, and what can we do to change that. I think the first problem is the unwillingness to LISTEN to the opinions of the people we are trying to effect.

They also demand chastity of anyone in their organisation, which is why their are all these child molestation charges. Sexual repression is bad. I agree with adultery, but premarital sex is fine. It just needs to be stressed that you should be ready to accept any and all consequences.

Christianity is opposed to premarital sex because of its consequences. Premarital sex also is categorized with lust, one of the 7 deadly sins. Premarital sex has its consequences such as (to name a few):
-Paying for the child or the operation to have an abortion (with is another subject Christianity is against, but that's another thread. I'll now assume the teens keep the child)
-Reputation of people
-Chance of STDs
-Spending time caring for the child rather than having the free time to yourself
-A teen's body is not developed enough to carry a child. The child will be born with deficiencies.

I think someone in the post stated that the US is top-ranked in teen pregnancies. Christianity tries help people to avoid such consequences. We are only human; we can only do so much.

And who are you to judge, deciding what is right and wrong, on the molestation charges. As christians, we are against that too. Everyone sins. Its not like every leader has perfection. Of course such an event is awful to us. And allowing one sinner to represent the whole religion is as absurd as letting a white guy speak for all African-Americans. Allowing one event to judge a whole religion is stereotypical and naive.

Premarital sex also is categorized with lust, one of the 7 deadly sins.

...


-Reputation of people


There you have it. The reason the US is so anti-sex is because of the christians who say that sex is bad, and that fornicating hurts your reputation and is lust, which they say is a sin.

There's your answer.

There you have it. The reason the US is so anti-sex is because of the christians who say that sex is bad, and that fornicating hurts your reputation and is lust, which they say is a sin.

There's your answer.

Yeah, that pretty much covers it.

CoRRuPTeD HaLo, I'm not talking about kids fucking each other at the age of 13, that prevents them from getting a good education and knowledge is essential for life. I mean two adults that have been dating for 3 months and are serious shouldn't be shamed by having sex. I still frown on teen sex, since it can cause consequences which will ruin their life.

I know what sin it is classified under and that Christianity opposes it, what do you take me for, an idiot?

I am not saying that the fact that preists have on many occasions have molested children makes all of Christianity bad simply for that reason. I am saying that the Christian policy on chastity in it's leaders is what causes it. I also don't like their way of handling it, they have on one occasion atleast simply relocated the preist to another country. There are also plenty of other reasons why I don't like Christianity.

That's odd. How is that when two adults who have known each other for 3 months have sex, it's okay, but when two 13-year-olds who have known each other have sex, it "prevents them from getting a good education"? I assume that by your comment you referred to some girl getting pregnant, but there are three obvious counterarguments: 1) contraception, 2) abortion, 3) gay sex. What if two thirteen-year-old boys who have known each other three months have sex?
It seems to me that this issue is now the last bastion for the anti-sex masses in America; since the majority of rational people aren't very passionate over extra-marital sex or even gay sex these days, the new catchword is kids having sex. Really, if you even mention the words "kids" and "sex" within the same sentence, you're going to get a violent reaction from someone. And god help you if you mention the words "kids" "sex" and "adults" in the same sentence!

That's odd. How is that when two adults who have known each other for 3 months have sex, it's okay, but when two 13-year-olds who have known each other have sex, it "prevents them from getting a good education"? I assume that by your comment you referred to some girl getting pregnant, but there are three obvious counterarguments: 1) contraception, 2) abortion, 3) gay sex. What if two thirteen-year-old boys who have known each other three months have sex?
It seems to me that this issue is now the last bastion for the anti-sex masses in America; since the majority of rational people aren't very passionate over extra-marital sex or even gay sex these days, the new catchword is kids having sex. Really, if you even mention the words "kids" and "sex" within the same sentence, you're going to get a violent reaction from someone. And god help you if you mention the words "kids" "sex" and "adults" in the same sentence!
1) Contraception, I know very few kids who are devoted enough to something to make contraceptives effective.
2) Abortion, a possibility yes.
3) That is fine, but it wasn't in the context of what I was saying.
You also neglected the possibility of STD's. Teen relationships are short, and so if 13 year olds went around fucking someone different every three weeks, STDs would be incredible prevalent. Teens are also in general idiots, instant gratification and bragging rights is about all they think about on the subject.
In general adults are more mature about it and can deal with the consequences better than kids can.

That's odd. How is that when two adults who have known each other for 3 months have sex, it's okay, but when two 13-year-olds who have known each other have sex, it "prevents them from getting a good education"? I assume that by your comment you referred to some girl getting pregnant, but there are three obvious counterarguments: 1) contraception, 2) abortion, 3) gay sex. What if two thirteen-year-old boys who have known each other three months have sex?
It seems to me that this issue is now the last bastion for the anti-sex masses in America; since the majority of rational people aren't very passionate over extra-marital sex or even gay sex these days, the new catchword is kids having sex. Really, if you even mention the words "kids" and "sex" within the same sentence, you're going to get a violent reaction from someone. And god help you if you mention the words "kids" "sex" and "adults" in the same sentence!

I think that the problem is that children don't generally have the mental capacity to truly understand what they are doing. Why don't we let kids drive cars? smoke? drink?(although I disagree with this one) live alone and support themselves? Basically, most of them have not developed the maturity to make these decisions. There are huge emotional issues that go along with sex for many, if not most people, and these can be even more important than the possible physical ramifications.

CoRRuPTeD HaLo, I'm not talking about kids fucking each other at the age of 13, that prevents them from getting a good education and knowledge is essential for life. I mean two adults that have been dating for 3 months and are serious shouldn't be shamed by having sex. I still frown on teen sex, since it can cause consequences which will ruin their life.

I know what sin it is classified under and that Christianity opposes it, what do you take me for, an idiot?

I am not saying that the fact that preists have on many occasions have molested children makes all of Christianity bad simply for that reason. I am saying that the Christian policy on chastity in it's leaders is what causes it. I also don't like their way of handling it, they have on one occasion atleast simply relocated the preist to another country. There are also plenty of other reasons why I don't like Christianity.


I disagree about the celibacy part … Considering most of the victims were male (boys) … some of it is a power trip (at least the age part) but just because you are forced to be celibate does not “turn” someone gay.

I have a feeling that the profession attracts those that are ashamed of their feelings and feel that a life of celibacy is the only way things can work out (and therefore figure why not help people at the same time)

Also a lot of that stuff has to do with power and authoritarian figures in their life’s but not sure if the celibacy thing causes this … just attracts some people

(I am not “For” priests having to stay celibate but …)

I disagree about the celibacy part … Considering most of the victims were male (boys) … some of it is a power trip (at least the age part) but just because you are forced to be celibate does not “turn” someone gay.

And by "gay," you mean "pedophile," right? Because being a pedophile has absolutely nothing to do with being gay.

I have a feeling that the profession attracts those that are ashamed of their feelings and feel that a life of celibacy is the only way things can work out (and therefore figure why not help people at the same time)

I think that this is some of it. It is very possible that those who are already pedophiles feel drawn to the priesthood because they feel it will keep them from acting on their feelings. However, prison behavior shows that people who are forced into situations of celibacy will often do things for gratification that they would not normally do. Some priests may end up having sex with those that look up to them because they have been forced to remain celibate and need to do something.

3) That is fine, but it wasn't in the context of what I was saying.You also neglected the possibility of STD's. Teen relationships are short, and so if 13 year olds went around fucking someone different every three weeks, STDs would be incredible prevalent. Teens are also in general idiots, instant gratification and bragging rights is about all they think about on the subject.In general adults are more mature about it and can deal with the consequences better than kids can.

I *am* a teenager, in high school, right now. And I can tell you that yes, a lot of people do go around screwing each other (in every imaignable context), but STDs aren't very prevalent. Furthermore, a lot of adults go around screwing each other just as pettily; it seems an odd thing to say that adults are "more mature" about sex, especially when they blow up about it whenever anyone starts talking about it. In my experience, kids laugh about it, do it, and then leave it be. It doesn't haunt us nearly as much.

I think that the problem is that children don't generally have the mental capacity to truly understand what they are doing. Why don't we let kids drive cars? smoke? drink?(although I disagree with this one) live alone and support themselves? Basically, most of them have not developed the maturity to make these decisions. There are huge emotional issues that go along with sex for many, if not most people, and these can be even more important than the possible physical ramifications.

Um, thanks. I love it when people say to my face that I don't have the mental capacity to understand such terribly "adult" things as driving a car or having sex. And as for living alone and supporting themselves - well, I don't live in the best area on earth, and I personally know several kids who support themselves, and sometimes their parents too.
Since a lot of adults *do* have sex without the emotional components, you can't really say that sex necessarily must include them; you can at best say that you *want* it to include them. Furthermore, why is it impossible to imagine two kids who have an emotional bond just as deep as any two adults can form?

I disagree about the celibacy part … Considering most of the victims were male (boys) … some of it is a power trip (at least the age part) but just because you are forced to be celibate does not “turn” someone gay.

I have a feeling that the profession attracts those that are ashamed of their feelings and feel that a life of celibacy is the only way things can work out (and therefore figure why not help people at the same time)

Also a lot of that stuff has to do with power and authoritarian figures in their life’s but not sure if the celibacy thing causes this … just attracts some people

(I am not “For” priests having to stay celibate but …)
Celibacy is blocking one of the main desires of the body, to reproduce. Supressing this base desire for their entire lives eventually causes problems later on. Perhaps the preist was a homosexual pedophile to start out with and joined the preisthood to give him a reason not to (which is entirely possible). These feelings built up and he let them out. Child molestation is an offense if I am not mistaken, which raises the question of why he wasn't punished, like he should have. If it had happened sooner because he hadn't made a vow of celibacy, he would have been jailed earlier and perhaps rehabilitated. If the preist was straight to begin with same thing could have happened simply because he had no other outlet.

Arenestho: Pedophilia is a sexual orientation. You cannot be "rehabilitated" out of it, anymore than you can "rehabilitate" a straight person. What really happens inside those mental institutions is generally either that they are given avoidance "therapy" (ie they're shown child porn and then shocked whenever they get aroused) or they're chemically castrated, which means that they're given various medicines that suppress the release of sex hormones, as well as producing several side effects. Either way, it's arguable that they end up with considerably more emotional baggage than they would have anyway.

Um, thanks. I love it when people say to my face that I don't have the mental capacity to understand such terribly "adult" things as driving a car or having sex. And as for living alone and supporting themselves - well, I don't live in the best area on earth, and I personally know several kids who support themselves, and sometimes their parents too.

Funny how you jump to conclusions like that. If you would kindly reread my post, you would see that there are words like "most" and "generally." I don't know you - you may not be the general teenager and may be more mature than most. I also don't know how old you are. But think about it this way, do you think a 2 year old should just go out and have sex? How about 8? 10? 12? 14? 18? 25? At what magic age does every human being become mature enough to make that decision? The answer is that there is no magic age.

Since a lot of adults *do* have sex without the emotional components, you can't really say that sex necessarily must include them; you can at best say that you *want* it to include them. Furthermore, why is it impossible to imagine two kids who have an emotional bond just as deep as any two adults can form?

I can say that for many people, they are there - regardless of whether or not they want them. And again, I didn't say it is impossible for two kids to have a deep emotional bond. I said that, generally, children are not mature enough to form that bond.

The whole issue falls down to generally and "most of the time." And we place somewhat arbitrary cut-offs at the times when most people are mature enough.

Another thing that I will say, and I'm sure you'll blow up about, is this. Whatever age you may be, you most likely think you are just as mature as any adult. I know I did when I was still a teenager. Then, you get a little older and you think "Wow, I was really immature back then. Glad I didn't do X." Then you get a little older and you realize that, even when you were thinking how immature you used to be, you actually were still immature. Hell, I'm only 24 and I still feel like a kid sometimes.

Arenestho: Pedophilia is a sexual orientation. You cannot be "rehabilitated" out of it, anymore than you can "rehabilitate" a straight person. What really happens inside those mental institutions is generally either that they are given avoidance "therapy" (ie they're shown child porn and then shocked whenever they get aroused) or they're chemically castrated, which means that they're given various medicines that suppress the release of sex hormones, as well as producing several side effects. Either way, it's arguable that they end up with considerably more emotional baggage than they would have anyway.

They may have more emotional baggage, but they're less likely to go around causing it in young children. Pedophilia is unfortunate, but must be contained somehow to keep the person from harming others.

Arenestho: Pedophilia is a sexual orientation. You cannot be "rehabilitated" out of it, anymore than you can "rehabilitate" a straight person. What really happens inside those mental institutions is generally either that they are given avoidance "therapy" (ie they're shown child porn and then shocked whenever they get aroused) or they're chemically castrated, which means that they're given various medicines that suppress the release of sex hormones, as well as producing several side effects. Either way, it's arguable that they end up with considerably more emotional baggage than they would have anyway.
Punishment is punishment. The fact is that this person raped a child and must be prevented from causing further harm to others however possible; capital punishment, life sentences, chemical castration, torture etc. That applies to anyone of any orientation.

As an addition, teen sex should be stressed as bad. The fact is that the majority of teens aren't smart enough to realise what they're doing nor can they handle the consequences; the small minority who can should not make teen sex look acceptable. It's the opposite for adults, only a minority go around fucking every hot chick they see.

Dempublicants: So the point of the prison system is prevention for you, eh? Well, I disagree, and at this point in the discussion we can both pull out a thousand different arguments to support our opinions - which would pull this thread way off-topic? If you'd like to continue the discussion, I'd be more than happy to start a new thread.
Also, I *do* apologize for kind of jumping on you like that. Call me tetchy.

But think about it this way, do you think a 2 year old should just go out and have sex? How about 8? 10? 12? 14? 18? 25? At what magic age does every human being become mature enough to make that decision? The answer is that there is no magic age. QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Dempublicents]Another thing that I will say, and I'm sure you'll blow up about, is this. Whatever age you may be, you most likely think you are just as mature as any adult. I know I did when I was still a teenager. Then, you get a little older and you think "Wow, I was really immature back then. Glad I didn't do X." Then you get a little older and you realize that, even when you were thinking how immature you used to be, you actually were still immature. Hell, I'm only 24 and I still feel like a kid sometimes.

I agree. My solution, however, is that kids should be given the freedom to decide for themselves at what point they're emotionally mature enough. After all, who's more likely to understand the kid - himself/herself or some random politico who's never met them? The arbitrary cut-offs you mention are, in my opinion, one of the worst aspects of governmental thinking: everything must be clear-cut, no grey, one clear solution. Not just in this one issue, of course, but all over the place.
Again, I agree. And again, it seems to me that it's up to the individual to know him/herself and choose according to their ability. Isn't that what "living freely" is all about? A 70-year-old might think that a 60-year-old isn't mature enough to have sex; a 6-year-old might not think that a five-year-old is mature enough to play in the sandbox. It seems more worthwhile to me to avoid an age-based hierarchy like the ones that have existed in the past.

Now, I am not even going to get near the religious/adminstrative aspect of sexual over-sensitivity in the US, but as I am a Filmmaker, I would like to throw out something that I find sort of interesting about sex in the media culture:

In the US, people are terrified of sex in media. Case in point: Janet Jackson at the Superbowl. There was such an uproar about a "wardrobe malfunction" (yeah, whatever, Justin) even though there was not that much exposure compared to, say, the Girls Gone Wild commercials that air on network TV after midnight on some channels.

In Europe, however, from what I have heard, it is quite different. Nudity (which I will categorize as "sex" for argument.) is actually very much allowed and not seen as something negative to society. VIOLENCE, however, is the main turn-off of the Euro-media. If I am not wrong, movies such as Gangs of New York, The Passion, and other movies with wide-spread volience were not well recieved to most audiences.

Another fun fact: in the US, people were up in arms about the burka (the full-body dress for females) that was required dress for women under the Taliban in Afghanistan. Somthing I realized: We look at them and say "How horrible that they make them cover up themselves," but imagine how they must feel seeing Brittany Spears or Paris Hilton on TV and saying "How horrible that they make them bare all!"

But I digress.

Of there are any Europeans out there, please give me your thoughts or correct me if I'm wrong. Is it ture?

Cobwebland, the problem is that teens aren't impartial. Two 14 year olds can say that they are ready for sex, it will be a lot of fun and they will be careful. They do it, the guy is neglegent, the girl gets pregnant, forgets her pills, has a kid, her life is ruined and the guy leaves. People who are impartial and don't know each and every case, can make a much better decision.

I'm not saying that teen sex should be illegal, I am saying it should be shunned and stressed as being bad instead of premarital sex in general.

I think we need to remember the concept of responcibility for your actions. Christians also need to stop basing US laws on their sex-negative attitudes.

Another fun fact: in the US, people were up in arms about the burka (the full-body dress for females) that was required dress for women under the Taliban in Afghanistan. Somthing I realized: We look at them and say "How horrible that they make them cover up themselves," but imagine how they must feel seeing Brittany Spears or Paris Hilton on TV and saying "How horrible that they make them bare all!"

Actually, they do that under their own free will to increase profit.

Cobwebland, the problem is that teens aren't impartial. Two 14 year olds can say that they are ready for sex, it will be a lot of fun and they will be careful. They do it, the guy is neglegent, the girl gets pregnant, forgets her pills, has a kid, her life is ruined and the guy leaves. People who are impartial and don't know each and every case, can make a much better decision.

I'm not saying that teen sex should be illegal, I am saying it should be shunned and stressed as being bad instead of premarital sex in general.

Again: gay sex and abortions. I don't want to sound like a broken record, but okay - the pregnancy thing is an issue. I don't deny that. However, that same issue exists for adults too but is never used as a reason why all adults should be abstinent. Why? Because, in general, you will be arguing to an audience of adults who will laugh in your face. If you give any of these reasons to a crowd of teenagers why none of them should ever have sex (until, of course, they are happily married) they will laugh in your face.
Even assuming that the risk of pregnancy was much higher, and unavoidable once it happens, does that mean that only straight sex should be seen as bad? If so, I must admit that the world would be a great deal more interesting. But no, of course not; there are STDs. And even though that risk is equally controllable, let's again assume it's extremely high.
The solution as I see it isn't to crack down on kids and say - "hey you! Sex is bad. Die a virgin." It's fairly obvious that approach doesn't work anyway, and it's dishonest. Kids have just as much a right to a sex life as any adult; to deny it to them is frankly hypocritical to my eyes. Instead, we should stress learning the skills one needs to make more mature choices; life skills instead of work skills. Our current educational system is based on forming productive workers to fuel our capitalist engine, rather than producing happy, well-rounded, mature individuals. That's again a topic worthy of another thread.

I have to agree with Cobwebland. As another 16 year-old, I am constantly told by adults that I am mature for my age (some say too much so). And while I see that yes, you did use "most", and "generally", that doesn't change the fact that you believe that the minority should be punished for the actions of the majority. Yes, kids I know have sex, and yes, 1a rare one gets pregnant, and some might get STDs, but so do adults. I haven't had sex, and I'm not sure what I'd do if the situations arose, but that's my decision, or my parents' (until I'm 18), not any other kind of ruling body.

As for 2 year-olds (or 4, 6, 8, 10, etc.) having sex, doesn't happen. (at least I've never heard of it) You know males hit puberty at 12 or so; before then, did you ever really think about sex? I'm sure you had little-kid crushes, but I'd doubt you ever thought about porking the girl the next seat over.

Back to my main point. I dont think its very fair for you to restrict my actions because of what others have done in the past. What if I were to tell you that you can't have a driver's license anymore because 16-25 boys (excuse the gender assumption) have the highest crash rates? Would you give up your license? I highly doubt it. You probably assume that you're as safe a driver as anyone else on the road, and I can't do anything to disprove that except to ride with you in a car someday.

So....maybe....peepholes should be mandatory for first-timers? Just kidding.

You guys seem to be operating under the [false] impression that the laws are in place to keep teenagers from having sex with each other. No one is legally restricting you from having sex with other teenagers, although you may be encouraged not to do it. The laws keep adults from having sex with more impressionable teenagers.

Now, that said, I think everybody should be encouraged to wait until they are in a committed, long term relationship before having sex. And I do mean everyone, kids, teens, adults, alike should be told that this is best. If you don't do that - no one is going to send you to jail for it, but be aware of the possible consequences and have a plan for them. If you do, it will probably be better for you in the first place.

Also, I hate to say this because I hated the idea not so long ago - but, if you live in your parents' house and live off your parents' money - follow the rules your parents set. If your parents ask that you not have sex (especially in their house), then you shouldn't. If you think they are wrong, then tell them so - and if they just won't listen, just be smart about how you do things.

Dempublicents, I don't have a problem with following my parents' rules, and I agree with you there totally, but I do with our education system's way of teaching sex. They cause the very problems they try to solve by teaching the "abstinence-only" method. And I see that as a form of repression. Sexual behavior is frowned upon by the schools, and even activity outside of the school's jurisdiction can get you in trouble with school activities, (i.e. sports, clubs, etc.) But I thinnk that's just the region we live in.

Why is the US so anti-sex? I don't understand. They seem to be terrified of it. Any thoughts?

Christian moralists came to the continent for a reason. And the damn FCC.

You guys seem to be operating under the [false] impression that the laws are in place to keep teenagers from having sex with each other. No one is legally restricting you from having sex with other teenagers, although you may be encouraged not to do it. The laws keep adults from having sex with more impressionable teenagers.

Now, that said, I think everybody should be encouraged to wait until they are in a committed, long term relationship before having sex. And I do mean everyone, kids, teens, adults, alike should be told that this is best. If you don't do that - no one is going to send you to jail for it, but be aware of the possible consequences and have a plan for them. If you do, it will probably be better for you in the first place.

Also, I hate to say this because I hated the idea not so long ago - but, if you live in your parents' house and live off your parents' money - follow the rules your parents set. If your parents ask that you not have sex (especially in their house), then you shouldn't. If you think they are wrong, then tell them so - and if they just won't listen, just be smart about how you do things.

1) Um. There are a lot of kids in institutions now (if not jails) who were labelled "budding sex offenders" because of normal childhood sex play. Sometimes, admittedly, there is an inequality of age between them (like a 15 year old and a 13 year old) but a lot of times it's ruled that they're guilty of "molesting each other."

2) Even the kids who aren't punished legally are greatly looked down on by society at large and their elders. America *is* sex-phobic regarding kids, and that was the point of our discussion.

3) Kids are protected by normal rape laws; further laws that place restrictions on sexual interactions regarding kids tend to be used as a way of ensuring convictions. If, for example, a kid freely confesses to having been raped (by anyone of any age) the defendent is prosecuted under rape. If, however, the kid's parents find out he's having sex, it's not entirely uncommon for those parents to go to the police - especially if their kid's partner is older than them. The police then often push the kid for a confession of rape; if they refuse to give one it becomes a matter of "child molestation" (a catchall term) or "statutory rape."

From the wikipedia -
"Statutory rape is the crime of sexual intercourse with someone under the age of consent but older then the maximum age for the act to be considered child molestation. This term is primarily used in the United States. It is so named because it is considered to be rape under a specific statute rather than under the principles of criminal common law. Because the state has an interest in protecting minor children, it declares that children under a certain age are not able to give informed consent. Thus even if a child does nominally agree to sexual activity, it is still rape. State laws vary widely in their definitions of statutory rape; some states make exceptions when the perpetrator is also young, others if he marries the minor before being convicted of the crime. Due to a wide variety of opinions on what the proper age of consent should be, statutory rape charges can be controversial."

the us is so anti-sex cause of christian extremists

This was a whole lot easier to be sex phobic back before science. DAMN YOU SCIENCE!

I didn't bother to read the other two pages so I run the risk of repeating something, but the USA was at least partly started by the Puritans, a fairly strict bunch...

Also I think the coiuntry is divided in this issue like most others. I think a lot of the country is open to sex, sometimes too open, and others are pretty shy about it, sometimes too shy. As always the extremists make both look bad.

Of course, it's not like this is a pressing issue of whether it is better to be open to sex or shy about it, and everyone should be able to act how they want to about the issue one way or the other, unless of course your going to far one way or the other.

There is one good thing about the US's sexual repression: Hentai-based weaponry, provided you can smuggle it in, is ultra-effective.

Dempublicents, I don't have a problem with following my parents' rules, and I agree with you there totally, but I do with our education system's way of teaching sex. They cause the very problems they try to solve by teaching the "abstinence-only" method. And I see that as a form of repression. Sexual behavior is frowned upon by the schools, and even activity outside of the school's jurisdiction can get you in trouble with school activities, (i.e. sports, clubs, etc.) But I thinnk that's just the region we live in.

I fully agree that abstinence-only education is pure stupidity on the part of the educators (or whoever decides what they teach). I just think it should be impressed upon everybody that sex is not just a joke - that it should not be entered into lightly, and that it should be safe.


1) Um. There are a lot of kids in institutions now (if not jails) who were labelled "budding sex offenders" because of normal childhood sex play. Sometimes, admittedly, there is an inequality of age between them (like a 15 year old and a 13 year old) but a lot of times it's ruled that they're guilty of "molesting each other."

I must ask, where do you live? Because I live in the backwards South, and I've still never heard of any such thing. The worst that I have heard is an 18 year old going to court for having sex with a 15 year old. I know that most state laws will only prosecute someone over 18 with child molestation or statutory rape - and the smart ones impose an age difference as well. That way, the 18 year old doesn't get in trouble for having sex with the seventeen year old boy/girlfriend, but would get in trouble for having sex with a 12 year old.

2) Even the kids who aren't punished legally are greatly looked down on by society at large and their elders. America *is* sex-phobic regarding kids, and that was the point of our discussion.

::shrug:: I've never looked down on anyone who had sex consentually. I just try to correct people when they have misconceptions and push condom use (especially for anyone under age who decides to do it). That's basically what I have seen from others too. Obviously, parents don't want their kids doing it because (a) the potential to ruin their lives and (b) they don't want their kids to grow up, but only in super-religious families is someone "looked down on."

3) Kids are protected by normal rape laws; further laws that place restrictions on sexual interactions regarding kids tend to be used as a way of ensuring convictions. If, for example, a kid freely confesses to having been raped (by anyone of any age) the defendent is prosecuted under rape. If, however, the kid's parents find out he's having sex, it's not entirely uncommon for those parents to go to the police - especially if their kid's partner is older than them. The police then often push the kid for a confession of rape; if they refuse to give one it becomes a matter of "child molestation" (a catchall term) or "statutory rape."

I have no problem with statutory rape or child molestation laws, when used properly. Under no circumstances should anyone have sex with a child before puberty and under no circumstances should a 30 year old be having sex with a teenager. Statutory rape laws are not there to try and restrict you - they are there to keep an older man/woman from preying on you - and believe me, there are those out there who will do it. When I was younger and older men would hit on me, it freaked me out, but at the same time it felt good to have a man show interest in me. For some, a teenage girl (for example) will do things with an older man she would not with a guy her own age. Why? Because it feels nice to have a more mature guy interested in them and they want to do whatever they can to not lose that. And unfortunately, this does happen, and the girl is being taken advantage of - and the man should go to jail for it.

I see no abuse in that situation. X hits on Y. Y reciprocates. X and Y have sex. That's a pretty normal social interaction if you ask me, and entirely consent-based. I have no problem *whatsoever* with rape laws being applied to kids; that's what really protects us from sexual abuse. I *do* disagree with laws that prosecute consensual sexual activity. If a sixteen-year old decides to have sex with a 20-year-old, or a 25-year-old, or even a 30-year old, that's consensual. The vast majority of people probably don't agree with it, but the vast majority of people in the 1940s thought a gay relationship was sick and twisted and evil too. Go back even farther and a relationship not sealed by god was sick etc. Who are we to say we're right? If the kid's happy, everything's good and the police aren't needed. If it's nonconsensual it's rape.
And now I'm probably going to sound a little heartless ... if an 20-year old got drunk and some guy convinced her to have sex, we'd probably call him a sleaze. It's not a crime; the woman knew what she was getting into when she got drunk, and it was her bad decision. If it was a pair of 16-year olds it might be a crime and it might not depending on where you live, their parents, the police, the judge, etc. If the drunk was a kid, it's a crime. If the sleaze was a kid, it's a crime (which will never make sense to me). Basically, at that point it can't really be called rape, but the consent wasn't given in a fully informed state. And it's at that point that I walka way and say it was a bad decision, not a felony.

Cobwebland, I'll tell you what - as you are totally entitled to your opinion. Now, give it about 10 years. If you still don't think that a 30 year old is completely taking advantage of a 14 year old if they have sex, then you can fight to change the laws. I'd be willing to bet money that your view of this will change as you get older and, yes, more mature (don't take this as an insult - I think everyone is [hopefully] getting more mature, regardless of age). ::shrug:: I could be wrong, and you may be spearheading an attempt to change the laws in 10 years or so. =)

no one probably cares, but i was aware of sexuality probably around 11 or 12. now that i'm 16 i still wish that i would've acted on it when i was younger and not felt all ridiculously guilty.

stupid guilt. and i'm not even religious. puberty must be HELL on kids who are.