NationStates Jolt Archive

YOu know, these threads are quite popular-but one thing's been bugging me.

Now, I hear Satan called "Lucifer" wuite often...but I've never seen a single Bible verse to back that up. There are two times this name is mentioned, and one of them is quite...well, you'll see.

1) A babyloneon king is named Lucifer. If you don't know, Lucifer means "morning star." Now, the real reason I ask this is because I think that "morning star" would be an awesome name. I mean, if it weren't for the whole "he's the devil" deal, Lucifer would be a supercool name.

Now here's the real weird part. The other time this is mentioned is-and I don't know the exact verse, but I'm sure someone can back me up on this one-when Jesus calls himself "the morning star."

**backtracks**

Isn't that "Lucifer?" So...does this mean

A) Satan =/= Lucifer, that crazy church establishment got thigns all muddled up again
B) Jesus is...holy crap!
C) The answer is irrelevent, I'm going to hell

(I'm not making this a poll, btw :p)

That'd be Revelation 22:16 ...

However, I find it odd that if you go back to the "OT", you find it clearly stated in Job that there are plenty of "morning stars" and "sons of God" ...

Job 38:7

"When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"

Yet we're now supposed to believe there's only one of each ...

A lot of it was codified in the other Protestant book of the Bible: Paradise Lost, by Milton.

I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure that the Devil is only actually called Lucifer once in the Bible. I believe it did refer to his Angelic position, rather than to his actual name.

But I'm not sure.

YOu know, these threads are quite popular-but one thing's been bugging me.

Now, I hear Satan called "Lucifer" wuite often...but I've never seen a single Bible verse to back that up. There are two times this name is mentioned, and one of them is quite...well, you'll see.

1) A babyloneon king is named Lucifer. If you don't know, Lucifer means "morning star."

The one reference you speak of is Isaiah 14:12 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning..."

The confusion lies in the fact that the name "Lucifer" has become associated with "Morning Star" - but actually means "Light Bringer". (I believe that the stuff that makes fire-flies glow is called luciferase, just for that reason).

Hardliners may try to tell you that Lucifer is the devil, is satan, is the beast, the dragon, the snake in the garden of eden... etc. etc. etc. but the name 'Lucifer' appears nowhere else in the bible. There is no GOOD reason to suspect that anything was meant, other than a king of Babylon being 'glorious', which is another way of translating Lucifer.

And you were right, the only character named "Morning Star" is Jesus, in two seperate verses of Revelation.

The only other time that 'morning' and 'star' appear directly connected is in Job 38:7, but the reference implies that we are talking about actual stars, 'singing' (which we can assume is metaphorical) in the morning:"When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy...".

I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure that the Devil is only actually called Lucifer once in the Bible. I believe it did refer to his Angelic position, rather than to his actual name.

But I'm not sure.

"HaSatan" is the angelic position of which you are probably thinking. It means "Adversary", and was the rank of the angel set to 'try' humans - to prove that they were sinful creatures. It's where the 'name' Satan derives from.

"HaSatan" is the angelic position of which you are probably thinking. It means "Adversary", and was the rank of the angel set to 'try' humans - to prove that they were sinful creatures. It's where the 'name' Satan derives from.
Adversary to man rather then to God I assume.

Am I right?

I'm no Christian, but I think the devil was called Lucifer when he was an angel. Is that true?

Isn't "satan" the jewish word for blasphemer?

YOu know, these threads are quite popular-but one thing's been bugging me.

Now, I hear Satan called "Lucifer" wuite often...but I've never seen a single Bible verse to back that up. There are two times this name is mentioned, and one of them is quite...well, you'll see.

1) A babyloneon king is named Lucifer. If you don't know, Lucifer means "morning star." Now, the real reason I ask this is because I think that "morning star" would be an awesome name. I mean, if it weren't for the whole "he's the devil" deal, Lucifer would be a supercool name.

Now here's the real weird part. The other time this is mentioned is-and I don't know the exact verse, but I'm sure someone can back me up on this one-when Jesus calls himself "the morning star."

**backtracks**

Isn't that "Lucifer?" So...does this mean

A) Satan =/= Lucifer, that crazy church establishment got thigns all muddled up again
B) Jesus is...holy crap!
C) The answer is irrelevent, I'm going to hell

(I'm not making this a poll, btw :p)
I think the name Lucifer originated largely because of the Church's opposition to the Illuminati in the 18th century. "Lucifer", as the Illuminati called him, was a superior beign of some sort that would be perfect for ruling the world as some scientific-collectivist state. The Church then identified Lucifer as being the Devil. To be honest, however, I don't know what the Devil's real name is supposed to be. Take Satan, for example. It originated from the Arabic word "shaitan", meaning adversary. That was used starting in the Middle Ages.

Adversary to man rather then to God I assume.

Am I right?

That was the original concept... look at how "HaSatan" has to be granted permission from 'god' for each of his 'evils' against Job. And, bear in mind that it is 'god' who a) initiates the discussion about Job, and b) tells "HaSatan" to go and 'test' him.

Also, note that, though "HaSatan" is given as the instrument of Job's torment, it is 'god' that actually carries out the evil Job 2:3 "...and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him..."

I think the name Lucifer originated largely because of the Church's opposition to the Illuminati in the 18th century. "Lucifer", as the Illuminati called him, was a superior beign of some sort that would be perfect for ruling the world as some scientific-collectivist state. The Church then identified Lucifer as being the Devil. To be honest, however, I don't know what the Devil's real name is supposed to be. Take Satan, for example. It originated from the Arabic word "shaitan", meaning adversary. That was used starting in the Middle Ages.

Actually, the Arabic word "shaitan" comes from the Hebrew "HaSatan" and the Hebrews probably obtained the word from the Egyptian "Seth", since there is no record of Hebrews using the word before they encountered Egypt.

That was the original concept... look at how "HaSatan" has to be granted permission from 'god' for each of his 'evils' against Job. And, bear in mind that it is 'god' who a) initiates the discussion about Job, and b) tells "HaSatan" to go and 'test' him.

Also, note that, though "HaSatan" is given as the instrument of Job's torment, it is 'god' that actually carries out the evil Job 2:3 "...and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him..."

Since you seem to be very knowledgable on this subject could you tell me if I am right. I read somewhere (but for the life of me cannot remember where) that the reason that Satan became the evil one because in Europe people found it hard to get to grips with the idea that an all loving god could (effectively) condone evil.

I realise this is not to informative, but this is a subject I only have a passing knowledge of from a book I read a while ago.

See, the reason this is such a thing with me, is that even if Lucifer means "bringer of light" instead of "morning star..." that's still an awesome name! And now it's unusable...ARGH!

Since you seem to be very knowledgable on this subject could you tell me if I am right. I read somewhere (but for the life of me cannot remember where) that the reason that Satan became the evil one because in Europe people found it hard to get to grips with the idea that an all loving god could (effectively) condone evil.

I realise this is not to informative, but this is a subject I only have a passing knowledge of from a book I read a while ago.

There seem to be a lot of stories about, relating to the origin of the character we know as Satan, some of it New Testament era fudging of the data to try to give a 'nemesis' to 'god'.

There definitely was an attempt to establish "Lucifer" as being another name for the nemesis - since, upto the time of St Augustine, it was not unusual for particularly pious parents to name their children Lucifer - since it means "Light Bearer".... example is Bishop Lucifer of Cagliari.

It seems likely that the 'less religiously educated' Europeans would have demanded a better 'evil' figure - and the early church did play to this - redesigning 'the devil', for example, into a goat faced half-human, basically stealing the pagan gods and renaming them as evil.

The Hebrew version portrays HaSatan as - at worst - an angel of destruction... he does bad things, but only when he is told to. Hebrew thinkers didn't seem to have a problem with God being the architect of both good and evil, they were quite happy to accept both aspects, perhaps as evidence of his omnipotence.

However, after the Hebrews encountered Zoroastrianism, a new religion began to develop from the old - one that pitted 'god' against an evil entity that was (almost) his equal - forming the 'duality' that we understand today.

Sorry to go on so long... but, one last point.... the Duality isn't the only thing that Christianity seems to have stolen from Zoroastrianism... since Jesus seems to share a lot of characteristics with Zoroaster himself... supposedly having been born of a virgin, baptised in a river, even a resurrection prophecy.

See, the reason this is such a thing with me, is that even if Lucifer means "bringer of light" instead of "morning star..." that's still an awesome name! And now it's unusable...ARGH!

So use it.... they'll just burn you at the stake for being a heretic...