NationStates Jolt Archive

I get the impression that America bashing has become a favorite game around the world. We are accused of being war-mongering aggressors even though most of the wars we fought in the last century or so have been justified. (Vietnam and the current Iraq war are the main exceptions) We are accused of imperialism, yet we haven't been annexing any territory. When that's pointed out we are accused of "cultural" imperialism. As if we are invading nations and forcing the residents to wear blue jeans and eat McDonalds at gunpoint. This is getting more than a little annoying.

Exceptions that America has yet to apologize for: there goes the saying, if he isn't sorry about it then he will want to do it again.

Well Hawaii didn't want to be annexed, but gun point is very proswaysive. (spelled wrong). The native people still wish to be their own country.

I could go on but eh.

A couple mistakes are enough dude, if I only kill one person ala Laci peterson trial, I can still go to jail or be killed.
The number don't count the impact is still there.

By the way I'm American, America is the best but our leaders suck (at least Republican ones seem to do bad things. personal problems don't cause hatred of other nations so Clinton is safe)

Exceptions that America has yet to apologize for: there goes the saying, if he isn't sorry about it then he will want to do it again.

Well Hawaii didn't want to be annexed, but gun point is very proswaysive. (spelled wrong). The native people still wish to be their own country.

I could go on but eh.

A couple mistakes are enough dude, if I only kill one person ala Laci peterson trial, I can still go to jail or be killed.
The number don't count the impact is still there.

By the way I'm American, America is the best but our leaders suck (at least Republican ones seem to do bad things. personal problems don't cause hatred of other nations so Clinton is safe)

Except, other nations have carried out terrible atrocities as well for the aquisition of territory... Today, my example is Australia.

When the Australian government wanted to install colonists into the Island of Tasmania (Which, is larger than Hawai'i) and found it already inhabitted; they authorised citizens to kill the locals at will. They were shot at with nail-guns, rifles, sliced with swords... And then the native's corpses were brought to the local government office; the killer recieving 5 pounds for their trouble. The Australian government was supporting the murder of an entire race, and then payed the murderers as if they had obtained a beaver pelt or somthing!

To this day, the Australian government has yet to apologise, and many Australians justify it by declaring the Tasmanians 'Foul, violent beasts... uncouth in the extreme' .

Not to pick on Australia, or to extoll praise for America (Trail of tears, Wounded Knee... Japanese Camps, ect.) But, other nations have problems too.

Of course other nations have problems. Fact is though, that the CURRENT war in the news was one started by the US.

This, of course, colours the current rhetoric.

How bout every other country who has fought a war with another country. Why are they not hated?

How bout every other country who has fought a war with another country. Why are they not hated?

By some people who paid personal prices they are. However there is a difference between historical perspective and current events.

The US had the backing of the world on September 12th, 2001. By it's actions it has lost much of it. Don't blame the rest of the world for that. That is a function of the response by this administration.

To this day, the Australian government has yet to apologise, and many Australians justify it by declaring the Tasmanians 'Foul, violent beasts... uncouth in the extreme' .

Actually most Australian people don't know about the genocide of the Tasmanian Aborigines. Terrible yes, but the nation is ignorant. We were basically British back then, btw.

When we say things about Tasmanians, we mean the modern Tasmanians. They're in that island down there away from the rest of us and they're all different like...

Actually most Australian people don't know about the genocide of the Tasmanian Aborigines. Terrible yes, but the nation is ignorant. We were basically British back then, btw.


Thats terrible... I agree. :(

We are accused of imperialism, yet we haven't been annexing any territory.

There is a difference between Imperialism and Territorial Conquest.
That is, imperialism does not necessarily require the use of military force in order to secure the domination of a foriegn country. Domination can be achieved culturally, economically and ideologically.
With such an explanation, America is indeed guilty of Imperialism.

Thats terrible... I agree. :(

I'm glad you do. I will say that as much as I love the land I live in, we're the most apathetic nation in the world. We're keeping immigrants in mandatory detention indefinitely and no-one here cares. Well, that's not quite true. But those who do care are ridiculed.

Actually most Australian people don't know about the genocide of the Tasmanian Aborigines. Terrible yes, but the nation is ignorant. We were basically British back then, btw.

When we say things about Tasmanians, we mean the modern Tasmanians. They're in that island down there away from the rest of us and they're all different like...

actually anybody who has been in high school and paid attention in history class should know that... it is in the syllabus (sp?)

I'm glad you do. I will say that as much as I love the land I live in, we're the most apathetic nation in the world. We're keeping immigrants in mandatory detention indefinitely and no-one here cares. Well, that's not quite true. But those who do care are ridiculed.

Yep... we are ridiculed... sucks eh?

immigration policy in australia pisses me off, but that's for another thread.

actually anybody who has been in high school and paid attention in history class should know that... it is in the syllabus (sp?)

Only in Year 11 or 12 Australian History, at least at the school I went to (In Victoria). The proportion of people who study that subject is pretty low. And the proportion of people who will remember it is even less.

Yep... we are ridiculed... sucks eh?

immigration policy in australia pisses me off, but that's for another thread.
Yeah, true.

Joey,

Why do you think that the rest of the world is heavy into America bashing? A question like this can so easily become a troll - so I am just wondering if the American's who think the bashing is unjustified in a general way can see any of the sense in it at all?

FL

Only in Year 12 Australian History, at least at the school I went to (In Victoria). The proportion of people who study that subject is pretty low. And the proportion of people who will remember it is even less.




Really? We were tought in year 10... compulsory history in our school... one would think an event like that would be mandatory to learn about...

Really? We were tought in year 10... compulsory history in our school... one would think an event like that would be mandatory to learn about...

In Year 10 in Victoria history isn't compulsory...it stops being compulsory in year 9.

In Year 10 in Victoria history isn't compulsory...it stops being compulsory in year 9.
lucky bastards... i hated history.

I wish we would annex Mexico and Canada so we can be a whole continent like Austrailia.

[QUOTE=Kanabia]Actually most Australian people don't know about the genocide of the Tasmanian Aborigines. Terrible yes, but the nation is ignorant. We were basically British back then, btw.QUOTE]

Good get out clause.The modern americans could say the same thing about the treatment of native americans.We were basically European then so its nothing to do with us that we stole all their land and killed lots of them.Most white british came from germany,france and scandanavia as the vikings so I'am gonna blame them for the british empire.After all we kept getting invaded until 1066 so we had to get our own back.Oh damn I'am partly Irish and scottish too.Now I'am even more confused. :headbang:

Joey,

Why do you think that the rest of the world is heavy into America bashing? A question like this can so easily become a troll - so I am just wondering if the American's who think the bashing is unjustified in a general way can see any of the sense in it at all?

FL
Part of it is certainly Bush's attitudes and policies. Some of it was around before Bush. The bashing that goes on because of Iraq I can understand. Most of it just sounds mean spirited to me. Other countries seem to have a tendency to demean us because we have a different culture. We have a more religious population, more provincial, and our cultural traditions aren't as old and well established. Plus I think there's a natural tendency to pick on the big guy when you know he's not going to knock you out for it.

A couple reasons why America may get a lot of bashing:

1. It just LOOKS like America is being bashed most. Americans will notice America bashing. Greeks would notice Greece bashing instead, and Irish Ireland bashing, and Australians Australia bashing, etc.

2. We are at present the world's only superpower. We are the biggest target, we are the most in the public eye, and this increases our chances at people having an opinion about us either way. And some of those will be bad.

3. We have been a superpower for a long time, and have used that power in various ways. If the Soviet Union still existed, it would probably come under similar fire today for things like the Hungary uprising and such. But it doesn't exist anymore, so...yeah.

Everyone needs a scapegoat, and I think the US is the choice because of its recent track record and its unbashed foreign policy. The hypocrisy also playsa role in this.

[QUOTE=Kanabia]Actually most Australian people don't know about the genocide of the Tasmanian Aborigines. Terrible yes, but the nation is ignorant. We were basically British back then, btw.QUOTE]

Good get out clause.The modern americans could say the same thing about the treatment of native americans.We were basically European then so its nothing to do with us that we stole all their land and killed lots of them.Most white british came from germany,france and scandanavia as the vikings so I'am gonna blame them for the british empire.After all we kept getting invaded until 1066 so we had to get our own back.Oh damn I'am partly Irish and scottish too.Now I'am even more confused. :headbang:

I wasn't defending the genocide. But it did happen under British authority regardless.

Though if we really want to get technical, My family only immigrated here in the early to mid 20th century, so not even my ancestors are responsible :D

Part of it is certainly Bush's attitudes and policies. Some of it was around before Bush. The bashing that goes on because of Iraq I can understand. Most of it just sounds mean spirited to me. Other countries seem to have a tendency to demean us because we have a different culture. We have a more religious population, more provincial, and our cultural traditions aren't as old and well established. Plus I think there's a natural tendency to pick on the big guy when you know he's not going to knock you out for it.

I think much like opinion in the US which is diverse and complex people outside the US who bash America have different reasons to do so. I think a lot of Europeans think of American's as spoiled children and while there are some messed up reasons for that that have everything to do with a colonial past I think there are also some justifications.

If you take the Brits - they used to hear for decades comments like 'we bailed your ass out of two world wars' and related nonsense - but the Brits see themselves as the only nation that stood up to Nazi tyranny for three years before the isolationist American's pulled their head out of their asses and decided that maybe Hitler was a problem after all - and they only did that after they were bombed by the Japanese. So a lot of Brits bash American's as loud, arrogant and pig headed in their ignorance. For that world war 2 generation - who stood under german bombers armed with hunting rifles you kind have to think that they may be justified.

Whether their grandchildren have a right to complain in the same way is another question entirely. But the same goes for American triumphalism - the whole we are the greatest stuff that comes out of America really startles the rest of the world - only 10 percent of American's even own passports - how on earth do they even know how good or bad their country stacks up against this or that nation? If the answer is in the GDP, the average income or the size of American refrigerators (a regular discussion point for the rest of the world - your refrigerators are about twice the size of what you would find in a comparable househould in Europe) then we are kind of returning to the superficial greed angle - we are a better nation because we have more stuff!??

I think much like opinion in the US which is diverse and complex people outside the US who bash America have different reasons to do so. I think a lot of Europeans think of American's as spoiled children and while there are some messed up reasons for that that have everything to do with a colonial past I think there are also some justifications.

If you take the Brits - they used to hear for decades comments like 'we bailed your ass out of two world wars' and related nonsense - but the Brits see themselves as the only nation that stood up to Nazi tyranny for three years before the isolationist American's pulled their head out of their asses and decided that maybe Hitler was a problem after all - and they only did that after they were bombed by the Japanese. So a lot of Brits bash American's as loud, arrogant and pig headed in their ignorance. For that world war 2 generation - who stood under german bombers armed with hunting rifles you kind have to think that they may be justified.

Whether their grandchildren have a right to complain in the same way is another question entirely. But the same goes for American triumphalism - the whole we are the greatest stuff that comes out of America really startles the rest of the world - only 10 percent of American's even own passports - how on earth do they even know how good or bad their country stacks up against this or that nation? If the answer is in the GDP, the average income or the size of American refrigerators (a regular discussion point for the rest of the world - your refrigerators are about twice the size of what you would find in a comparable househould in Europe) then we are kind of returning to the superficial greed angle - we are a better nation because we have more stuff!??
Come on! you can't tell me that _every_ nation's citizens don't take pride in thier respective country. If Englishmen didn't think England was the best they would move somewhere better. People in shit countries with corrupt abusive governments leave for greener pastures every day. I agree that comments like "If not for us you'd be seig-heiling right now" are offensive, but they are not the norm. Every time an American shows some pride in his country it seems someone has to try to point out to him how evil America is.

Come on! you can't tell me that _every_ nation's citizens don't take pride in thier respective country. If Englishmen didn't think England was the best they would move somewhere better. People in shit countries with corrupt abusive governments leave for greener pastures every day. I agree that comments like "If not for us you'd be seig-heiling right now" are offensive, but they are not the norm. Every time an American shows some pride in his country it seems someone has to try to point out to him how evil America is.

I agree with this statement Joey P! Your right on the button here.

I wish we would annex Mexico and Canada so we can be a whole continent like Austrailia.

moron.

moron.
wait, let's hear him out. He may be on to something.

I wish we would annex Mexico and Canada so we can be a whole continent like Austrailia.
Not possible. And it is very simple...

Austrailia doesn't have anything attached to it and it is smaller that the US. Meanwhile, south of Mexico, you have Latin American and South America. Yeah, we are all connected. The Panama Canel is not natural, it's man built, so, we are attached to South America. Thus, to be like Austrailia you'd need the WHOLE landmass of of the western hemisphere.

wait, let's hear him out. He may be on to something.
That should be: maybe he's on something... ;)

I wish we would annex Mexico and Canada so we can be a whole continent like Austrailia.


Just what you'd want. Well-armed insurgents closer to home!

Just what you'd want. Well-armed insurgents closer to home!

Zepp for once, I agree with you! LOL! :D

America is indeed guilty of Imperialism.

Imperialism is not a guilty charge. If managed poorly then it is, if it abuses others with no or little lasting benefit for them then it is a guilty charge.

A well-managed and happy Empire where people are free to leave is a success though. Eg: That British one.

Regards,

TNE

I love America. Great place.

But, other nations have problems too.

Agreed. Yet, many of them get all fat-headed and arrogant, spend all their time badmouthing the USA, and never admitting that they have problems, too.

Come on! you can't tell me that _every_ nation's citizens don't take pride in thier respective country. If Englishmen didn't think England was the best they would move somewhere better. People in shit countries with corrupt abusive governments leave for greener pastures every day. I agree that comments like "If not for us you'd be seig-heiling right now" are offensive, but they are not the norm. Every time an American shows some pride in his country it seems someone has to try to point out to him how evil America is.

The negative reaction to US patriotism is proportional to how much we hear about it. Maybe living in the US, you don't realise just how culturally aggressive it is. General isn't regularly host to threads proclaiming how France has the god-given right to rule the universe with total hegemony for a million years, but any number of threads spring up saying the same about the US. After a while, it gets so tiresome, that you just have to give up trying to be tolerant, and yell "Shut up, USA!"

Imperialism is not a guilty charge. If managed poorly then it is, if it abuses others with no or little lasting benefit for them then it is a guilty charge.

A well-managed and happy Empire where people are free to leave is a success though. Eg: That British one.

I don't think the majority of citizens of the British Empire were happy, they either didn't care or were actively against it. And no one was certainly free to leave.

The negative reaction to US patriotism is proportional to how much we hear about it. Maybe living in the US, you don't realise just how culturally aggressive it is. General isn't regularly host to threads proclaiming how France has the god-given right to rule the universe with total hegemony for a million years, but any number of threads spring up saying the same about the US. After a while, it gets so tiresome, that you just have to give up trying to be tolerant, and yell "Shut up, USA!"
Clearly france doesn't have that right. It was given to the USA. See, these posts are what happen when I get bored.

Clearly france doesn't have that right. It was given to the USA. See, these posts are what happen when I get bored.

Joey, as an american, don't antagonize please :P

Joey, as an american, don't antagonize please :P
I was just foolin' around.

I was just foolin' around.

*giggles*

So was I ;)

America certainly has certainly stopped the USSR and China taking over the world after WW2 and that is a good enough reason alone to be thankful to the USA

I would disagree with you – yes, people take pride in their nations but not always in a ‘we are the best’ kind of way. This we are the best thing seems particularly American and the rest of the world finds it really insulting and I think it breeds considerable resentment and so bashing.

And I don’t think people would move automatically if they identified another nation as superior – its hard to move, immigration law, family ties, career ladders, familiarity – you may intellectually appreciate another country more than your own but this does not in any way mean that you would want to move there.

Without getting into the details America is pretty unquestionably the undisputed champ on national wealth but once you delve into the details like wealth distribution, provision for the poor, and so forth the US is no clear winner. So then if you value anything other than an abstract number representing the accumulation of the US economy you are immediately into a whole realm of qualified arguments where that ‘God’s own country’ or ‘greatest country on earth’ stuff no longer flies.

Fact is I think most cultures are more capable of self criticism than the American’s are – the British would probably win the European title for self mockery but the French are pretty clear on their limitations as well in a kind of humorous ‘we are French – what did you expect?’ way. Maybe the issue is exactly one of self reflexivity – I think most cultures know their shortcomings and that while British people are proud of what they take to be their merits they begrudgingly respect and enjoy the French for doing things differently and doing them well. People like to travel for this reason – they go to enjoy those things that other countries do well.

As you probably don’t need to be told – American are famous for going to other countries and getting upset when things aren’t the way they are at home. These are signs of another culture’s failure rather than its difference. Accordingly there is a gigantic industry for American holidaymakers where they are taken to restaurants and hotels that have been designed entirely with American clients in mind. And then American’s pass judgement on the these countries still – apparently missing the fact that the only locals they even met on their 2 week bus tour were the people paid to serve them.

In the end I am not sure American’s even understand that they have an identifiable culture that can be bashed – they seem to think whatever failings the nation has is the work of a few bad individuals and that whatever elements are generally ‘American’ are essentially beyond reproach.

For example: would American’s recognize that their culture appears to celebrate ignorance? That it is a militantly anti-intellectual and anti-literate culture? People seem to be actually proud of how little they know about issues that they speak freely about. It appears that American’s think that the less they know about something the more capable they will be in evaluating the issue or problem as if they can get down to ‘simple truths’ about something because their perspective isn’t clouded by details. In most cultures ignorance is something to be ashamed of and a reason to keep your mouth shut but in the US people with absolutely no knowledge of a topic seem to think their opinion is just as valid or just as good as an expert with decades of training and research on the issue. Global warming is a good example – I have heard American’s who have no more education on the matter than what they got in high school science courses give their opinion on why they think the experts are wrong about it and they seem offended by the suggestion that they are talking shit. Similarly, any politician who steps forward with detailed knowledge about a topic rather than just some general opinion that anyone could hold without researching the issue at all is considered an ‘elitist’. The more down home and uneducated politicians can appear (despite the fact that most of them have ivy league educations) the more likely they are to get into office.

When you see people who are proud of their stupidity in charge of the largest military force on the planet you might be inclined to take them down a peg or two. When they start talking about how great their country is – it might seem reasonable to just make sure that they know there is a lot wrong with it as well.

does that seem unreasonable?

I get the impression that America bashing has become a favorite game around the world. We are accused of being war-mongering aggressors even though most of the wars we fought in the last century or so have been justified. (Vietnam and the current Iraq war are the main exceptions) We are accused of imperialism, yet we haven't been annexing any territory. When that's pointed out we are accused of "cultural" imperialism. As if we are invading nations and forcing the residents to wear blue jeans and eat McDonalds at gunpoint. This is getting more than a little annoying.
nO ones bashing AMERICA-people are just mad that under Bush America has become the Evil Empire

nO ones bashing AMERICA-people are just mad that under Bush America has become the Evil Empire

WB MKULTRA! Told you you only had a week ban! :)

Yes they have been bashing America MKULTRA! The French do it all the time. Well the government at anyrate. Normandy France loves the US and is the most PRO-US Section of the country! The USSR was the Evil Empire MKULTRA, the US doesn't have an empire.

WB MKULTRA! Told you you only had a week ban! :)

Yes they have been bashing America MKULTRA! The French do it all the time. Well the government at anyrate. Normandy France loves the US and is the most PRO-US Section of the country! The USSR was the Evil Empire MKULTRA, the US doesn't have an empire.
did you have anything to do with that ban FD? ;)
and yes America has an Invisible Empire

did you have anything to do with that ban FD? ;)
and yes America has an Invisible Empire
Invisible empire? Where are these invisible collonies?

WB MKULTRA! Told you you only had a week ban! :)

Yes they have been bashing America MKULTRA! The French do it all the time. Well the government at anyrate. Normandy France loves the US and is the most PRO-US Section of the country! The USSR was the Evil Empire MKULTRA, the US doesn't have an empire.

I've actually found that the areas around Marseilles and Lille are the most American friendly, Toulouse coming in close behind. Everyone in Normandy sees everything there as a tourist attraction, and I think all the visitors proclaiming this is where they liberated France wears on them.

A well-managed and happy Empire where people are free to leave is a success though. Eg: That British one.

If people were "free to leave" the British Empire, why can I think of three nations off the top of my head that had to fight wars in order for Great Britain to grant them that freedom?

Invisible empire? Where are these invisible collonies?
their in the third world

I get the impression that America bashing has become a favorite game around the world. We are accused of being war-mongering aggressors even though most of the wars we fought in the last century or so have been justified. (Vietnam and the current Iraq war are the main exceptions) We are accused of imperialism, yet we haven't been annexing any territory. When that's pointed out we are accused of "cultural" imperialism. As if we are invading nations and forcing the residents to wear blue jeans and eat McDonalds at gunpoint. This is getting more than a little annoying.

You're entirely wrong. The favourite game around the world is apparently 'let's see how many 'America Bashing' threads we can make!'.

Besides, have you ever heard of 'informal empire'? Britain did it all the time. You do too.

did you have anything to do with that ban FD? ;)
and yes America has an Invisible Empire

yea I did! Got tired of beating you so I had you banned so you learn a lesson ;)

If people were "free to leave" the British Empire, why can I think of three nations off the top of my head that had to fight wars in order for Great Britain to grant them that freedom?

USA was one so who are the other two?

I would disagree with you – yes, people take pride in their nations but not always in a ‘we are the best’ kind of way. This we are the best thing seems particularly American and the rest of the world finds it really insulting and I think it breeds considerable resentment and so bashing.

And I don’t think people would move automatically if they identified another nation as superior – its hard to move, immigration law, family ties, career ladders, familiarity – you may intellectually appreciate another country more than your own but this does not in any way mean that you would want to move there.

Without getting into the details America is pretty unquestionably the undisputed champ on national wealth but once you delve into the details like wealth distribution, provision for the poor, and so forth the US is no clear winner. So then if you value anything other than an abstract number representing the accumulation of the US economy you are immediately into a whole realm of qualified arguments where that ‘God’s own country’ or ‘greatest country on earth’ stuff no longer flies.

Fact is I think most cultures are more capable of self criticism than the American’s are – the British would probably win the European title for self mockery but the French are pretty clear on their limitations as well in a kind of humorous ‘we are French – what did you expect?’ way. Maybe the issue is exactly one of self reflexivity – I think most cultures know their shortcomings and that while British people are proud of what they take to be their merits they begrudgingly respect and enjoy the French for doing things differently and doing them well. People like to travel for this reason – they go to enjoy those things that other countries do well.

As you probably don’t need to be told – American are famous for going to other countries and getting upset when things aren’t the way they are at home. These are signs of another culture’s failure rather than its difference. Accordingly there is a gigantic industry for American holidaymakers where they are taken to restaurants and hotels that have been designed entirely with American clients in mind. And then American’s pass judgement on the these countries still – apparently missing the fact that the only locals they even met on their 2 week bus tour were the people paid to serve them.

In the end I am not sure American’s even understand that they have an identifiable culture that can be bashed – they seem to think whatever failings the nation has is the work of a few bad individuals and that whatever elements are generally ‘American’ are essentially beyond reproach.

For example: would American’s recognize that their culture appears to celebrate ignorance? That it is a militantly anti-intellectual and anti-literate culture? People seem to be actually proud of how little they know about issues that they speak freely about. It appears that American’s think that the less they know about something the more capable they will be in evaluating the issue or problem as if they can get down to ‘simple truths’ about something because their perspective isn’t clouded by details. In most cultures ignorance is something to be ashamed of and a reason to keep your mouth shut but in the US people with absolutely no knowledge of a topic seem to think their opinion is just as valid or just as good as an expert with decades of training and research on the issue. Global warming is a good example – I have heard American’s who have no more education on the matter than what they got in high school science courses give their opinion on why they think the experts are wrong about it and they seem offended by the suggestion that they are talking shit. Similarly, any politician who steps forward with detailed knowledge about a topic rather than just some general opinion that anyone could hold without researching the issue at all is considered an ‘elitist’. The more down home and uneducated politicians can appear (despite the fact that most of them have ivy league educations) the more likely they are to get into office.

When you see people who are proud of their stupidity in charge of the largest military force on the planet you might be inclined to take them down a peg or two. When they start talking about how great their country is – it might seem reasonable to just make sure that they know there is a lot wrong with it as well.

does that seem unreasonable?

I completely agree.

America should spend less time complaining about why it is so often critisised, and spend more time on addressing the issues that cause many of its actions to be so unpopular in the rest of the world. When these are addressed, America-bashing will disolve to the margins.

yea I did! Got tired of beating you so I had you banned so you learn a lesson ;)
did it work yet? :D

did it work yet? :D

Don't know!Haven't debated you yet! :D