NationStates Jolt Archive

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&e=4&u=/nm/arms_usa_military_dc


U.S. to Pull 70,000 Troops from Europe, Asia


By Charles Aldinger

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States plans to withdraw about 70,000 U.S. troops from Europe and Asia in a major restructuring of military forces prompted by the end of the Cold War and the beginning of the war on terrorism, U.S. officials said Saturday.



President Bush will unveil the realignment in a speech Monday to the Veterans of Foreign Wars in Cincinnati, Ohio, said the officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity.


"The president is going to make an announcement about a major initiative to reduce the burden on our forces overseas," said one of the U.S. officials.


The officials confirmed a report in the Financial Times of a total reduction of about 70,000 troops in U.S. deployments overseas. The British newspaper, citing people briefed on the plan, said two-thirds of the reductions would be made in Europe, mostly in Germany.


There are more than 100,000 U.S. troops in Europe, including about 70,000 in Germany, and another 100,000 in the Pacific region and Asia. About 150,000 troops are stationed in Iraq and Afghanistan.


A senior administration official traveling with Bush in Portland, Oregon, said the president "will be discussing next week how the United States will structure its military capabilities to meet the threats of the 21st century with new technologies and new capabilities.


"It's important not that our military posture reflect the Cold War but the new threats of the 21st century," said the senior official.


Like the official traveling with Bush, officials in Washington refused to provide details, beyond saying there would be a major realignment. One official said there would be a "fairly significant reduction" in forces.


"This is not a diminished commitment to our allies or to our responsibilities in the world," said another official.


The U.S. military announced earlier this year that it was removing about 12,500 of the 37,000 troops stationed in South Korea for decades and sending many of them to Iraq or Afghanistan. One U.S. official said, however, some of those troops could be returned to South Korea.


"Germany is definitely a place where there will be a major re-arrangement," said an official.


Pentagon officials have been studying U.S. commitments overseas for more than two years in an initiative to re-arrange the ponderous global deployments of U.S. forces adopted in the Cold War and make the American military more mobile in the new war on terrorism.


The proposed move includes plans to use bases in Eastern European countries of the former Soviet bloc as transit points to send U.S. forces to trouble spots such as the Middle East and northern Africa.


While many troops would be brought home, sophisticated weaponry, including fighter planes, would be sent overseas to some bases to make up for the smaller number of ground troops.


The U.S. Air Force, for example, was currently discussing plans to deploy heavy bombers and new F/A-22 jets to Guam in the Pacific to address possible future threat from North Korea and China.

Good news for us. We dont want the Americans here anyway. Buh-bye. Dont let the door kick you in your ass on your way out.

Good news for us. We dont want the Americans here anyway. Buh-bye. Dont let the door kick you in your ass on your way out.


We don't want to be there! Protect your own ugly worthless asses!

We don't want to be there! Protect your own ugly worthless asses!
We will :)
Sadly the US didnt ask us whether we want them here or not. With the US finally gone aswell, our country is again ours without foreign "occupators" left over from WW2. Yippiiieeeh!

Good news for us. We dont want the Americans here anyway. Buh-bye. Dont let the door kick you in your ass on your way out.

Funny how you think all Americans are evil demons, eh, it's amusing really...

Funny how you think all Americans are evil demons, eh, it's amusing really...
Would you mind selling us a nuclear bomb and while you are at it, be so nice and drop it over NYC yourself? Thank thee.

We will :)
Sadly the US didnt ask us whether we want them here or not. With the US finally gone aswell, our country is again ours without foreign "occupators" left over from WW2. Yippiiieeeh!


:rolleyes:


Maybe it was your stupidity that made them leave?

Would you mind selling us a nuclear bomb and while you are at it, be so nice and drop it over NYC yourself? Thank thee.


Go to hell killer!

:rolleyes:


Maybe it was your stupidity that made them leave?
Nah. Its the "War on Terrorism" which will cost the lives of many an american soldier-puppet who "defends" his country. I'm for withdrawing from the US-puppet-alliance "NATO" and concentrate on making a strong EU. Less U$ soldiers in Germany is always good news.

We don't want to be there! Protect your own ugly worthless asses!


Tssss, ignorant people! Learn your history... Btw, most of the troops are in Europe in NATO-context... And the US can use them in Iraq... And haha, that Bushie declared the end of the war...

Btw nr. 2, Bush did NOT respect the values of the Olympics. It is custom that every ongoing fight across the world is ceased (temporarly) on the day that the Olympics start. Bush doesn't respect other people's cultures or countries... so why you ask does two third of the world 'hate' America??? I'm not against the US. Hell, I love New York! But I have some maaaaaaajor problems with their right-wing conservative government.

Go to hell killer!
I will not be the one to end in hell. bush II. however surely has a nice warm spot reserved for him - probably next to Hitler or Stalin.

Would you mind selling us a nuclear bomb and while you are at it, be so nice and drop it over NYC yourself? Thank thee.

Just because the government is bad, doesn't mean the people is, I know, I'm an American :)

We will :)
Sadly the US didnt ask us whether we want them here or not. With the US finally gone aswell, our country is again ours without foreign "occupators" left over from WW2. Yippiiieeeh!

They aren't all leaving, don't get your hopes up.

Just because the government is bad, doesn't mean the people is, I know, I'm an American :)
the U$ is a "democracy". bush II. was installed and rules the empire since too long. the U$ failed to remove him so far. I'll have more faith in the U$ civilians when they remove bush II. from his throne. Until then I'll hate the system as much as those who give it power.

I will not be the one to end in hell. bush II. however surely has a nice warm spot reserved for him - probably next to Hitler or Stalin.



That spot is for you, Hope you like it hot!


BTW, I do hate Europeans, and people like you are the reason why I do! Europe can burn in hell!

They aren't all leaving, don't get your hopes up.
Sadly so. If they would all be leaving, it would be so much nicer. No stinking americans to spread their stinking american culture and customs and whatnot. Take them all out - we dont need american gee-eyes here.

the U$ is a "democracy". bush II. was installed and rules the empire since too long. the U$ failed to remove him so far. I'll have more faith in the U$ civilians when they remove bush II. from his throne. Until then I'll hate the system as much as those who give it power.


Then hate us! We will re-elect Bush! Then nuke you! DEATH TO THE EU!

Sadly so. If they would all be leaving, it would be so much nicer. No stinking americans to spread their stinking american culture and customs and whatnot. Take them all out - we dont need american gee-eyes here.



You are an embarrassment to the HumanRace, Do us a favor, Kill yourself!

the U$ is a "democracy". bush II. was installed and rules the empire since too long. the U$ failed to remove him so far. I'll have more faith in the U$ civilians when they remove bush II. from his throne. Until then I'll hate the system as much as those who give it power.

So you hate the adolecents too? Geez louise, have you ever talked to an American that doesn't like Bush?

That spot is for you, Hope you like it hot!


BTW, I do hate Europeans, and people like you are the reason why I do! Europe can burn in hell!
hahaha europe is so much better than the U$. with your little "culture" you have made during the last 200 years, you have really nothing to show for the worthless time you exist on this planet so far. wars do not qualify. bush II. will have a hot spot in hell - i will not.

So you hate the adolecents too? Geez louise, have you ever talked to an American that doesn't like Bush?
the americans that dont like bush are in the minority it seems. prove me wrong in november and you shall be forgiven :)

hahaha europe is so much better than the U$. with your little "culture" you have made during the last 200 years, you have really nothing to show for the worthless time you exist on this planet so far. wars do not qualify. bush II. will have a hot spot in hell - i will not.


You are one stupid little man. Europe is a hellhole and most people would rather be dead than live there!

hahaha europe is so much better than the U$. with your little "culture" you have made during the last 200 years, you have really nothing to show for the worthless time you exist on this planet so far. wars do not qualify. bush II. will have a hot spot in hell - i will not.

Most Europeans who dislike America do for valid reasons, but I'm convinced you have penis envy since you degrade every single point of American life.

the americans that dont like bush are in the minority it seems. prove me wrong in november and you shall be forgiven :)



Blow it out your ass! We don't want your forgivness!

the americans that dont like bush are in the minority it seems. prove me wrong in november and you shall be forgiven :)

*cough cough*

I know that the forum doesn't show the majority of Americans, but do you realize how many people hate Bush here compared to those that like him? Around... 5 to 1.

And forgiven from what? We didn't really elect him, the Florida votes ring a bell?

*cough cough*

I know that the forum doesn't show the majority of Americans, but do you realize how many people hate Bush here compared to those that like him? Around... 5 to 1.

And forgiven from what? We didn't really elect him, the Florida votes ring a bell?



Don't pander to him! You don't need his respect!

*cough cough*

I know that the forum doesn't show the majority of Americans, but do you realize how many people hate Bush here compared to those that like him? Around... 5 to 1.

And forgiven from what? We didn't really elect him, the Florida votes ring a bell?


I for one have encountered a dangerously large amount of people who like Bush (and I live in Massachusetts), the only reassuring thing I've found is that most of these people say so, only becuase they hate democrats, and usually their parents are hardcore Republicans as well. I've yet to meet one person who has liked Bush for his policies and actually known what they are, unfortunately, this holds true for a lot of Kerry supporters as well, but in the latter's case it is less widespread it would seem.

*cough cough*

I know that the forum doesn't show the majority of Americans, but do you realize how many people hate Bush here compared to those that like him? Around... 5 to 1.

And forgiven from what? We didn't really elect him, the Florida votes ring a bell?
*adds The Island of Rose to people who are worth listening to*
And yes, I heard about the Florida elections, Jeb Bush and this commission that decided to wipe a number of voters from the lists for having similar names as convicted felons. Weird way to decide the president actually. You may want to consider repeating elections if they are as close as this.

Don't pander to him! You don't need his respect!

... well you're not making it any better :rolleyes:

*adds The Island of Rose to people who are worth listening to*
And yes, I heard about the Florida elections, Jeb Bush and this commission that decided to wipe a number of voters from the lists for having similar names as convicted felons. Weird way to decide the president actually. You may want to consider repeating elections if they are as close as this.

Then this means that we were cheated out of our President, which would've been Al Gore I believe, therefore I think that you saying that we picked Bush is wrong, but maybe I'm wrong.

... well you're not making it any better :rolleyes:


I am defending my country and you are selling it out!

Then this means that we were cheated out of our President, which would've been Al Gore I believe, therefore I think that you saying that we picked Bush is wrong, but maybe I'm wrong.
You picked bush, else he wouldnt be president now. If you were cheated, i am sure there would be a court available somewhere to hear and see the evidence.

You picked bush, else he wouldnt be president now. If you were cheated, i am sure there would be a court available somewhere to hear and see the evidence.

I was technically 11 when the elections happened, I hold no responsibility :p eh, life's a bitch eh?

I am defending my country and you are selling it out!

I'm having a peaceful debate, you are spewing off insults like a child. Plus, I'm sexier.

You picked bush, else he wouldnt be president now. If you were cheated, i am sure there would be a court available somewhere to hear and see the evidence.

There was, unfortunately (Depending on which side you take) it was filled with people appointed by his daddy or his party, and they sided with him. Or the other side, the courts decided the election should go to Bush.

There was, unfortunately (Depending on which side you take) it was filled with people appointed by his daddy or his party, and they sided with him. Or the other side, the courts decided the election should go to Bush.


Liberal courts.

There was, unfortunately (Depending on which side you take) it was filled with people appointed by his daddy or his party, and they sided with him. Or the other side, the courts decided the election should go to Bush.
Evidence just how corrupted your country is. How easily powerhungry corporate-backed nationalists can grab power and invalidate democracy. Bush has lied to the world to start a war - he's a disgrace for america. And it is an equal disgrace that he has been left in power for so long while a simple blowjob almost cost Bill Clinton his presidency.

Liberal courts.

And even after the court sided with them (The Supreme Court is far from liberal), they then turn around and complain judges are out of control. Make up your minds people.

Man, you're all hopeless!

1) The American government has troops in Europe ever since 1945 (the end of World War II)
2) Most of the troops were and are in Europe in NATO-context. European countries accepted the presence of this troops.
3) Remember, until 1989 we lived in another world. A bipolar one, with the USSR versus the USA (NATO). Most west-european countries were glad to have American troops stationned in their country. They provided a (fake?) feeling of safety against the 'red danger'.
4) This world doesn't exist any longer. The US is the only superpower left. They're not used to this and are still thinking bipolar. It's a political law: a superpowers needs an enemy. Now it's terrorism. But because terrorism is in fact a globalized business it's very hard to tackle them by force. That's why Bush is talking about the 'axis of evil'. Which in fact makes no sence, because it is proven that Iraq had nothing to do with terrorism.
5) The American industry depends for a large bit on the war industry. Starting a war is a form of public spending. By that the government invests money in it's own economy, helping it out of crisis.
6) Iraq is turning out to be a major problem. All this was predicted by so-called 'weak countries' who dared to oppose this war.
7) Bush sees the world in black and white. You can tell by what he says: "if you're not with us you're against us" "This war against the evil-doers will be won by the right and fair" And so on.
8) That's why the US is pulling out a major part of his troops. The red danger is gone. The war is now against terrorism. A superPOWER exist for a large part by it's army. But such a large army has to be used! 70.000 troops which aren't doing anything at all is a waste of resources.
9) And the NATO you say? Well the NATO has lost a lot of it's influence. It was usefull in the cold war, but now it lost it's most important reason of being. The US government knows this. Plus, the US is the greatest contributor to the NATO (financial and logistical). So, they believe they have the right to act unilateral in their own interest (pre-emptive strike!!) If some European countries are not pleased with that, than that's their problem. It has the benefit that it weakens Europe because the unity is gone. Remember, the new ex-communist members are still very american-minded!

The reality is always much more complicated than one would think. There's always a reason why something happened. Both Americans and Europeans should know this. We're both civilised cultures. The real problem aren't our stupid little differences. Oppinions can never be the same. That's a pillar of the public debate. The real problem in the world lays in the south, where people have no change to learn all this and so become an easy victim to the brainwashing by criminals. Palestine for instance. Give them a better life, better education and they will be better equiped to oppose the terrorist groups like Hamaz and Hezbollah that do provide "education" (which is more brainwashing!) War is very rarely a constructive solution!

Sorry for this large reply. I kinda get carried away, but I see to much ignorance on this forum. It doesn't lead anywhere!!!

We're not talking about that anymore though...

We're not talking about that anymore though...

Sorry for getting back on topic than.

Sorry for getting back on topic than.

It's okay :p

It's okay :p
Tehehe

Dance puppets dance... fight among yourselves while I take control...

Meh, I seems to destroy threads >_>

Stop feeding Gigatron, people.

He's obviously trolling.

Bush is talking about the 'axis of evil'. Which in fact makes no sence, because it is proven that Iraq had nothing to do with terrorism.

So Saddam Hussein's paying the families of suicide bombers isn't supporting terrorism?

But I think your point was about 9-11, in which case you're probably correct.

Oh. Look. Another semi-interesting thread turned into a flame war and guess who's involved. Two options are left open:

1. Look at the fertile land of this thread and decide that a farm needs to be built here.

2. Assemble the robot lions and form Ignore-tron!

Luckily, I can do both in one post.

Buh-bye!

So Saddam Hussein's paying the families of suicide bombers isn't supporting terrorism?
It's more like supporting the familiy rather then the bomber.
And Israel destroying the houses of the families of suicidebombers, making them homeless, is not terrorism?
On the subject:
The US will keep several occupation forces in Europe. As well as several bases I imagine. Ah well, it's a start.

I love america.I think Europe should marry it and have its babies!!!!!!! :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle:

So Saddam Hussein's paying the families of suicide bombers isn't supporting terrorism?

But I think your point was about 9-11, in which case you're probably correct.

Exactly. Let one thing be clear: Saddam is a thousand times worse than Bush. He was a dictator!! The US is a democracy! Saddam did indeed support terrorism in the Palestine conflict. That's true. And yes, he had (probably) nothing to do with 9-11. Saudi-Arabia is certainly more responsible! But here's the tricky part: The Fahd dinasty is very close with the US government. The US backs the dinasty (also financialy in the 80's) but this is against the will of the saudi people who accuse the US (and the West) of protecting Israël. The Fahd dinasty is trapped between two 'forces' who are completely opposed to each other... and the people don't trust the dinasty. In that climate it's easy to find terrorists who're willing to attack the enemy being the US (and the West) ánd the Fahd dinasty. That's also one of the reasons why so many saudi people attack their own government buildings and officials. The Fahd dinasty has it difficult to tackle terrorism, because they lack the support of the people.

The US government is very well aware of this dangerous situation. But Saudi Arabia is an extremely important importer of oil. Thus, the US is looking for other sources. Iraq was the solution. Yet, another reason to invade Iraq. If you're looking at it the way Bush does, there were many reasons to attack Iraq. Also, it was a nice way to get the attention of the American public away from the internal problems (enormous financial dept, economical crisis, educational problems, ...) Of course, you have to sell this war to the public. That wasn't very hard: Saddam ís a bad person, so it would seem very logic if he'd be accused of supporting the attacks of 9-11 and Osama bin Laden. Did Bush lie? Yes, and at least he hasn't told the whole truth. Also, the US military should have taken more time to investigate the Iraqi situation. It's just like Afghanistan, with local warlords who were held under control by Saddam. But take Saddam away and they'll take a chance to take power. A very explosive situation...

Ow, about France. France was mainly opposed to this war because of the interests of Total Fina Elf, the largest oilcompany in France. It's not a nice thing to see al these competitors win this oil, while you get nothing. And it didn't like to see Poland and others getting away from its influence. So France, defender of the good cause? Neih, principes play hardly any role in international politics. It has always been this way...

You see, everything what's going on in the middle east can be tracked down to that one single conflict that destabalizes the whole region: the Israel-Palestine-issue. Even more than the Iraqi situation does! Also oil is a very, very important factor. There's no use denying that. Everybody who'se a little aware of the context knows that.

still far too many americans left in germany. they shouldnt be here. not a single one of their army and cia.

i hope you americans reelect bush and invade a lot of nice little countrys, develope more nukes and generally piss of the world even more. it helps uniting europe tremendously, and when this happens, then the us isnt the only superpower anymore. + a Europe in this scenario will hardly be america friendly.
:mp5: ...you can always hope...

still far too many americans left in germany. they shouldnt be here. not a single one of their army and cia.

i hope you americans reelect bush and invade a lot of nice little countrys, develope more nukes and generally piss of the world even more. it helps uniting europe tremendously, and when this happens, then the us isnt the only superpower anymore. + a Europe in this scenario will hardly be america friendly.
:mp5: ...you can always hope...

Well, you silly Krauts shouldn't have started that thing called WWII. You lost and were absolutely destroyed. We won so to the victor goes the spoils.

It would be fun to see a EU superpower, hmm still wouldn't be a match for the MegaPower which is the US. Would the EU even survive a year in a total war against the US. I doubt it, what with all of those different nationalities. We'd be marching through the Arch De Capitulation in Paris in a week. Probably France would surrender with just a phone call.

Well, you silly Krauts shouldn't have started that thing called WWII. You lost and were absolutely destroyed. We won so to the victor goes the spoils. thats so typical american to jump to ww2 and think you have "won" the discussion. you think ill just back down now? but ill take the bait. ww2 had never happened without a little thing called the versailles treaty and the insane harshness of the entente powers. then america had to buy themselfes into the war. provoking the japanese to sink some junk battleships, only luck that germany declared war out of loyality to japan, otherwise you would had to pull something similar to pearl harbor off to go to war with germany. however the american part in the war wasnt too big, the war was lost in 44, only a matter of time until the soviets won. still america needs to fake history regulary to appear that they had a bigger infuence in the outcome than it really was. lol.

anyway, its quite laughtable that you always have to go to the past in every discussion. cant win in the present eh?

It would be fun to see a EU superpower, hmm still wouldn't be a match for the MegaPower which is the US. Would the EU even survive a year in a total war against the US. I doubt it, what with all of those different nationalities. We'd be marching through the Arch De Capitulation in Paris in a week. Probably France would surrender with just a phone call.
the EU is already stronger than the us in almost everything. only the military number of usa are bigger. and they are misleading, cause there is just no reason to do anything about the military. when a real war comes along youll see this numbers change really fast.
and about landing in france... you dont really think you can get a foot on shore there do you? the time america declares war to france theyve got more millions of volunteers then they can handle. and i dont even talk about expedition forces or allies of france.

I love america.I think Europe should marry it and have its babies!!!!!!! :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle:
Australia?

thats so typical american to jump to ww2 and think you have "won" the discussion. you think ill just back down now? but ill take the bait. ww2 had never happened without a little thing called the versailles treaty and the insane harshness of the entente powers. then america had to buy themselfes into the war. provoking the japanese to sink some junk battleships, only luck that germany declared war out of loyality to japan, otherwise you would had to pull something similar to pearl harbor off to go to war with germany. however the american part in the war wasnt too big, the war was lost in 44, only a matter of time until the soviets won. still america needs to fake history regulary to appear that they had a bigger infuence in the outcome than it really was. lol.

anyway, its quite laughtable that you always have to go to the past in every discussion. cant win in the present eh?


the EU is already stronger than the us in almost everything. only the military number of usa are bigger. and they are misleading, cause there is just no reason to do anything about the military. when a real war comes along youll see this numbers change really fast.
and about landing in france... you dont really think you can get a foot on shore there do you? the time america declares war to france theyve got more millions of volunteers then they can handle. and i dont even talk about expedition forces or allies of france.

HaHaHa, you're just mad becaue we bombed the hell out of you, then were nice enough to rebuild your country.

BTW The EU is stronger then the US in almost everything? Seems to me that the Euro is not the international currency that the dollar is. Yeah, how many nations does it take to compete with America. France would still be a push over. Yes I totally fear the armies of Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Turkey, etc. We'd win without even having to invade. Just bomb the snot out of Europe, and they'd be suing for peace. Sure you might shoot down some bombers, but alas the bombers will always get through.

Its funny that so many Germans are so happy to see the US go, considering the massive amount of spending and investment that was and is going on in Germany by US troops and the US military. Even with that, due to bad social and economic policies by people like Schroeder, .2% growth is proclaimed as excellent.

Its funny that so many Germans are so happy to see the US go, considering the massive amount of spending and investment that was and is going on in Germany by US troops and the US military. Even with that, due to bad social and economic policies by people like Schroeder, .2% growth is proclaimed as excellent.
Do a comparison of GDP growth per capita...

HaHaHa, you're just mad becaue we bombed the hell out of you, then were nice enough to rebuild your country.

BTW The EU is stronger then the US in almost everything? Seems to me that the Euro is not the international currency that the dollar is. Yeah, how many nations does it take to compete with America. France would still be a push over. Yes I totally fear the armies of Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Turkey, etc. We'd win without even having to invade. Just bomb the snot out of Europe, and they'd be suing for peace. Sure you might shoot down some bombers, but alas the bombers will always get through.
Gawd what arrogance. Set your yankee foot on European soil and I'll personally make you a head shorter, even if I have to move to France for that to happen. Fucking idiot americans thinking they are invincible. Apparently you didnt learn anything from 9/11. The U$ are *not* invulnerable and no big ass military will save you at home. If you were attacking Europe, rest assured your country would fall victim to the endless masses of terrorists bombing each and every fucking skyscraper in manhattan, spreading biological weapons of mass destruction and attacking with chemical weapons of mass destruction. We dont need nukes, although france has some, but the U$ would very likely be eradicated from within.

Gawd what arrogance. Set your yankee foot on European soil and I'll personally make you a head shorter, even if I have to move to France for that to happen. Fucking idiot americans thinking they are invincible. Apparently you didnt learn anything from 9/11. The U$ are *not* invulnerable and no big ass military will save you at home. If you were attacking Europe, rest assured your country would fall victim to the endless masses of terrorists bombing each and every fucking skyscraper in manhattan, spreading biological weapons of mass destruction and attacking with chemical weapons of mass destruction. We dont need nukes, although france has some, but the U$ would very likely be eradicated from within.

Becuase we all know how near to war tensions between Europe and America are, right?

Do a comparison of GDP growth per capita...
From the most recent issue of The Economist, a description of Germany's growth :

Germany's economic growth has lagged far behind that of the rest of the rich world during the past few years.

GDP % on a year earlier? Forcasted to be slightly above 1% for this year, as compared to above 3% for the rest of the OECD. Unemployment is forcasted to be approaching 9%.

2% growth is proclaimed as excellent.
It's not considerd excellent. It's just seen as the beginning of the end of the recession.

*sadly shakes her head*
this is the reason wars get started, guys........ just drop it
Bush has the us in tyranny.... I am an american and I see almost every freedom I have taken away from me a bit each day....... but it doesn't help if citizens of countries fight.... I think the governments make us do enough of that without us having to help them.

thats so typical american to jump to ww2 and think you have "won" the discussion. you think ill just back down now? but ill take the bait. ww2 had never happened without a little thing called the versailles treaty

A treaty the US never supported or ratified (we signed a seperate peace with them a few years later).

and the insane harshness of the entente powers. then america had to buy themselfes into the war.

Buy?

provoking the japanese to sink some junk battleships

They were junk and old, at least the ones that were never raised. And I think the Japanese did something to deserve the cutoff of oil supplies and other trade embargos, something to do with China and French Indochina, but you know, I just can't remember.

only luck that germany declared war out of loyality to japan, otherwise you would had to pull something similar to pearl harbor off to go to war with germany.

We probably would have went to war with Germany, just a few months later, and the Europe First policy would not have been tolerated.

however the american part in the war wasnt too big

You've clearly never studied the war.

the war was lost in 44

In hindsight it was, but if you looked at the situation in summer of 1942, you'd probably say the same thing about the Soviet Union.

only a matter of time until the soviets won.

Due in large part to the massive US industry, not to mention destruction of the Luftwaffe, and the destruction of Germany's resting ground and a source of 17% of it's war production (France).

still america needs to fake history regulary to appear that they had a bigger infuence in the outcome than it really was. lol.

You just won't give it to the Americans that they played a major part in that war, but ocnsidering how far some Americans go with it, I guess I can't blame oyu.





and about landing in france... you dont really think you can get a foot on shore there do you? the time america declares war to france theyve got more millions of volunteers then they can handle. and i dont even talk about expedition forces or allies of france.

And American doesn't? France is to this day underpopulated, you might have chosen a differnt country, France can't equip and train that many volunteers in years.

*sadly shakes her head*
this is the reason wars get started, guys........ just drop it
Bush has the us in tyranny.... I am an american and I see almost every freedom I have taken away from me a bit each day....... but it doesn't help if citizens of countries fight.... I think the governments make us do enough of that without us having to help them.

What freedoms have been taken away from you personally? You can go to church can't you? You can read what you want as long as it isn't child pornography. Can you work in whatever job you want to as long as you are qualified. Is it all because of the Patriot Act. Look at the RICO laws. These are much more pervasive then anything in the PA. Why didn't people protest about them?

PS-Are there thugs in black at polling places who hold a gun to your head, telling you whom to vote for?

Gawd what arrogance. Set your yankee foot on European soil and I'll personally make you a head shorter, even if I have to move to France for that to happen. Fucking idiot americans thinking they are invincible. Apparently you didnt learn anything from 9/11. The U$ are *not* invulnerable and no big ass military will save you at home. If you were attacking Europe, rest assured your country would fall victim to the endless masses of terrorists bombing each and every fucking skyscraper in manhattan, spreading biological weapons of mass destruction and attacking with chemical weapons of mass destruction. We dont need nukes, although france has some, but the U$ would very likely be eradicated from within.

Careful Gigatron, you're shouting! BTW do you think Germany would have recovered from what happened on 9/11 without massive aid from the US. Yeah every f-ing skyscraper huh. You don't think they'd all be shot down by the Air Force. You seem quite irate. Ok Gigatron, I'll come over so you can make me a "HEAD SHORTER". That's real tough talk from some 13 yr old obese kid sitting in front of his computer. I shudder at the pain you could inflict on me. Are you a tough guy?

BTW when you are number one, I guess any sign of power or pride is considered arrogance.

PS-I'm not a yankee as you seem to think! I wasn't born in New England you silly, silly Kraut. So go eat your cabbage, break wind, get in shape, then make me a "HEAD SHORTER", tough guy!!!

BTW do you think Germany would have recovered from what happened on 9/11

Errr...... nothing happened to germany on 9/11

PS-I'm not a yankee as you seem to think! I wasn't born in New England you silly, silly Kraut. So go eat your cabbage, break wind, get in shape, then make me a "HEAD SHORTER", tough guy!!!

You really should've been born here, best damn part of the country.


- A "gawd dayam" Yankee

Errr...... nothing happened to germany on 9/11



You really should've been born here, best damn part of the country.


- A "gawd dayam" Yankee


Sorry I was saying what would have happened if it did happen in Germany.

No I still like being a Pennsylvanian. You folks up there are too expensive. No offense. Now however I live in the Big Sky state. It is great, hardly any speed limits, gambling, beautiful country, skiing, it has it all except the beach.

Yes I totally fear the armies of Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Turkey, etc.

Lol. Are you laughing at us for being small? I'm from Belgium a small country in Europe. "Ye old europe" dixit Rumsfeld. And heck, I'm proud of it. I don't understand your point. Yes, we're small, that's why we have small armies... duh. Everybody knows the US would win against us. So?

Well....er...if Yankees only live in New England...then, uh, why are the Yankees in NYC?

I thought Yankees were everyone north of the M-D line - but maybe that's cause I'm in VA

Well....er...if Yankees only live in New England...then, uh, why are the Yankees in NYC?

I thought Yankees were everyone north of the M-D line - but maybe that's cause I'm in VA

Yes, you can take solace HannibalSmith in the fact that anywhere in the South you are still a "gawd dayam" Yankee, I consider anyone above the MD Line and east of the Mississippi a Yankee, but if you live here, apparently only us New Englanders are Yankees.

Originally Posted by Lotringen
thats so typical american to jump to ww2 and think you have "won" the discussion. you think ill just back down now? but ill take the bait. ww2 had never happened without a little thing called the versailles treaty
A treaty the US never supported or ratified (we signed a seperate peace with them a few years later).
so you admit that it was the versailles treaty that started ww2? good that we agree on something.


Originally Posted by Lotringen
then america had to buy themselfes into the war.

Buy? lend/lease, destroyers for bases programm and the battleships in pearl harbor.


Originally Posted by Lotringen
provoking the japanese to sink some junk battleships

They were junk and old, at least the ones that were never raised. And I think the Japanese did something to deserve the cutoff of oil supplies and other trade embargos, something to do with China and French Indochina, but you know, I just can't remember. it doesnt matter if they deserve this or not. the americans knew exactly what would happen if they cut the japanese oil, thats important here.


Originally Posted by Lotringen
only luck that germany declared war out of loyality to japan, otherwise you would had to pull something similar to pearl harbor off to go to war with germany.
We probably would have went to war with Germany, just a few months later, and the Europe First policy would not have been tolerated. maybe. its impossible to say what truman would have done. i think he had produces a "luisitania 2" or something similar.


Originally Posted by Lotringen
however the american part in the war wasnt too big
You've clearly never studied the war. oh REALLY? maybe i just studied the non-americanized version of history. its known everywhere how "accurate" (lol) americans take historical accuracy. U-571 and all this idiotic kids who claim america won ww2 are a wonderfull example.


Originally Posted by Lotringen
the war was lost in 44
In hindsight it was, but if you looked at the situation in summer of 1942, you'd probably say the same thing about the Soviet Union. yes and if not for this idiot hitler it could very well be a victory in the east.


Originally Posted by Lotringen
only a matter of time until the soviets won.
Due in large part to the massive US industry, not to mention destruction of the Luftwaffe, and the destruction of Germany's resting ground and a source of 17% of it's war production (France). you overestimate the influence of your terror bombings.


Originally Posted by Lotringen
still america needs to fake history regulary to appear that they had a bigger infuence in the outcome than it really was. lol.
You just won't give it to the Americans that they played a major part in that war, but ocnsidering how far some Americans go with it, I guess I can't blame oyu. you didnt play a major part in it... but whats that? some kind of peace offer?


Originally Posted by Lotringen
and about landing in france... you dont really think you can get a foot on shore there do you? the time america declares war to france theyve got more millions of volunteers then they can handle. and i dont even talk about expedition forces or allies of france.
And American doesn't? France is to this day underpopulated, you might have chosen a differnt country, France can't equip and train that many volunteers in years. america would get volunteers from israel and thats it. and the original poster of this crap wasnt talking about an invasion of america.
france or any other country in europe would be backed by the whole world. and thats exactly what i said, france couldnt handle all the support it would get in case of an american attack.

so you admit that it was the versailles treaty that started ww2? good that we agree on something.

There were other causes, but for our purposes, yes, it was a major cause.

lend/lease, destroyers for bases programm and the battleships in pearl harbor.

I fail to see how that is "buying" our way into war, one is a very good trade for the US, the other was a devestating attack.

it doesnt matter if they deserve this or not. the americans knew exactly what would happen if they cut the japanese oil, thats important here.

They didn't think what happened would happen however, given the choice of war or peace, the Americans thought they would choose peace, and if they didn't, the US could handle them in war. The US had every right to do what it did.

maybe. its impossible to say what truman would have done. i think he had produces a "luisitania 2" or something similar.

Truman, we would've been at war with Germany by 1943 at the latest, that's still Roosevelt.

oh REALLY? maybe i just studied the non-americanized version of history. its known everywhere how "accurate" (lol) americans take historical accuracy. U-571 and all this idiotic kids who claim america won ww2 are a wonderfull example.

U-571 is wrong on so many levels, but you haven't studied any part of the war to say America didn't play an important role, if you would like, I could go through the reasons.

yes and if not for this idiot hitler it could very well be a victory in the east.

He did make some huge mistakes didn't he

you overestimate the influence of your terror bombings.

I never mentioned the Strategic Bombing Campaign (which, btw, I agree with the Strategic Bombing Survey after the war, was quite ineffective), nice try though. I was talking about the destruction of the Luftwaffe (85% of it, most of it frontline units, destroyed in the West), which does actually have a little to do with the Bombing campaign, and the loss of France was done by the Allied Overlord and Dragoon operations (France supplied Germany with 17% of it's wartime resources and production, it was also the area units were sent from the East to rest and re-equip, the loss of this area had a severe impact on the Whermacht).

you didnt play a major part in it... but whats that? some kind of peace offer?

We played a pivotal role in it, and no, it's not a peace offer, just agreeing that a lot of people like to rant on about how America won WWII, without backing it up (Usually I run into them on WWII forums, here it is a split down the middle between those people, and people who refuse to admit how crucial America was to the Allies)

america would get volunteers from israel and thats it. and the original poster of this crap wasnt talking about an invasion of america.
france or any other country in europe would be backed by the whole world. and thats exactly what i said, france couldnt handle all the support it would get in case of an american attack.

Ah, my mis-understanding, in which case I withdraw my comment.

Sorry I was saying what would have happened if it did happen in Germany.

No I still like being a Pennsylvanian. You folks up there are too expensive. No offense. Now however I live in the Big Sky state. It is great, hardly any speed limits, gambling, beautiful country, skiing, it has it all except the beach.
I don't know what would have happened in Germany. Most likely not much since we dont have many skyscrapers in the first place :p

But I know what happened to the U$. You turned into the worst assholes this planet has ever seen and you even congratulate yourself for it. While the U$ before 9/11 and for a short time after it, was bearable, it is way out of control by now and deserves all the hate it can get from the world.

Alright, it took some time, but using my own materials, I've gathered a list that demonstrates only one part of the aid the US gave to the general war effort, it focuses on the Lend-Lease to the Soviet Union, keep in mind the Soviet Union wasn't even the biggest receiver of Lend-Lease, that was Britain, who received almost 3 times as much ($32 billion vs. $11 billion).

The Sources I used are the following

The Second World War by John Keegan
The Role of Lend-Lease In Soviet Military Operations: 1941-1945 by Boris V. Sokolov
Quotes by no less an authority on the Soviet Union during WW2 than Marshal Zhukov himself.

Lend-Lease
Everyone likes to downplay this, but just to show you how critical it was to the Soviets

Almost all of the Soviet Unions high-grade fuel came from the United States (You know, the stuff that makes the airplanes go)

13,000,000 pairs of felt winter boots built to Soviet designs for the Red Army, the Germans would have died for these during 1941-42. This kept the Soviet feet from freezing like the Whermacht's

The massive destruction caused by Barborassa entailed a loss of rolling stock and locomotives, and those that were not lost were busy shipping factories to the Urals and Siberia. These losses were made good by the US, which supplied 2,000 locomotives and 11,000 rail wagons, which not only made good the losses, but increased Soviet rail capacity, along with that came 3,000,000 tons of gasoline, and 540,000 tons of fresh rail (used to increase the Soviet Rail Network).

427,000 Trucks and 51,000 Jeeps - Scoff at this number, but it represents 65% of the Soviet motorized capabilities, the large proportion of them 2 1/2 ton Dodge trucks, which effectively carried everything the Soviets needed. The Soviets only were able to produce the massive numbers of armour becuase they did not have to produce trucks, the US supplied them. During the war, the word studebaker became synonomous with truck in the Soviet Union. Trucks were needed not only for supply (the Germans had failed largely becuase they didn't have enough), and the Soviets desperately needed them, they often outran their supply lines during their massive offensives, but also for battles. Without these trucks, the Soviet Operation Doctrine of "Deep-in" Offensive tactics would fail, and the Soviets would have floundered in White Russia. Soviet Offensive doctrine stipulated a massive armour attack would be exploited by fast moving infantry (ie. infantry carried by trucks) who would exploit that gap and widen it, Blitzkreig on a far larger scale. Without American trucks, the Soviets would not have enough to supply themselves and use this offensive tool.

7,000 Tanks - Most Western Armour was not wanted or needed by the Soviets, until the introduction of the 76mm variant of the Sherman, these tanks were loved by the Soviets who used them, and an entire Tank Corps was outfitted solely with the 76mm Sherman (There is a famous picture of a Soviet Tank in Vienna, the tank is a Sherman).

15,000 Aircraft - Soviet Aircraft were always subpar in the opening years (except the IL-2 Sturmovik, but it was a divebomber and ground attack plane, not a fighter), so the Soviets made good with what they had, which was a hell of a lot of P-39's, the aircraft the first Soviet aces made their names in. These aircraft were obviously replaced as the war drag on, but they were invaluable for the first year, when most of the Red Air Force was destroyed on the ground.

5,000,000 tons of Food from American Agriculture - In other words, enough food to feed every single Soviet Soldier with 1/2 pound of concentrated rations each day of the war.

Now for some percentages, to highlight the fact, the source for these percentages are two books, The Role of Lend-Lease In Soviet Military Operations: 1941-1945 by Boris V. Sokolov, and Marshal Zhukov himself.

80% of all canned meat
92% of all locomotives, rail stock, and rail material
57% of all Aviation Fuel
53% of all Explosives (you know, the stuff needed to make ammunition)
74% of all Truck Transport (This is a general figure from the war)
88% of all Radio Equipment
75% of all Copper
56% of all Aluminum
60+% of all Vehicle Fuel
74% of all Vehicle Tires
12% of all Armoured Vehicles (not just tanks, also tank destroyers, SP artillery, and halftracks)
14% of all Combat Aircraft

Not mentioned in this list is also high-grade steel (almost exclusively sent by the US), used to create tanks, medical supplies, and almost every type of machine tool used by Soviet Industry (along with the know-how to use it) - Paraphrased from Marshal Zhukov


Other things the Americans did that drained German resources
75% of 88mm guns were trained upwards towards American (and British) bombers, not facing Russian tanks.
2,000,000 German soldiers were involved in the defense of the Reich against the Allied Bombing Offensive (admittedly, after '43 these were not frontline or even second rate troops)
75% of all German Aircraft were tied down trying to stop the Bombing Offensive
20% of all Artillery ammunition went to AA defense against the Bombing Offensive

God damn it people, what the fuck is the matter with you? There will be no war between France and America, not within in the next 20 years anyways, France and Amerca are still allies, bicker here all you want but when shit hits the fan France and America will stiick together.

This has crossed over friendly rivalries like just saying we are better than you are, you guys talk like you think a war is just around the corner, for crying out loud, French and American soldiers even train together. It can not be denied that America helped greatly in WWII, whether we wrestled Europe out from under the jaws of Nazi Germany will be debated for a long time to come, in all honesty the Soviet Union probably could have defeated Germany, but then again if the allies did not land on Normandy the Soviets may have taken so many losses that they would have made a peace with Germany. If Germany had not declared war on the US we still probably would have gone to war with Germany, if Roosevelt could make the decision to go for a Europe First policy after Pearl Harbor I am sure he could have atleast made a Defeat Japan while helping Europe strategy, which really is what we did, if we had gone more against Japan though it would have been the opposite way around with Japan falling first and then Germany, maybe, if we had gone that way we would not have had the Atomic Bomb and then millions of soldiers would have died in an invasion of Japan.

Either way, quit acting like a war is imminent.

If you live in the US then a Yank is someone from New England, this includes New York, if you live anywhere else in the world it is anyone from America, I hate the term Yanquee, I do not call someone from the UK a frog, I do not use slurs against people from any other countries, I can people from France French, people from Germany Germans and I would like to think that I can expect the same in return.

Back to the subject at hand, I was told when I enlisted that the Army was moving their bases out of Germany and into the Czeck Republic because it was cheaper rent there, it would provide for better training, and sith the war on terror it would provide for better logistical support.

I don't know what would have happened in Germany. Most likely not much since we dont have many skyscrapers in the first place :p

But I know what happened to the U$. You turned into the worst assholes this planet has ever seen and you even congratulate yourself for it. While the U$ before 9/11 and for a short time after it, was bearable, it is way out of control by now and deserves all the hate it can get from the world.


Yup the biggest a-holes ever. Not like we gassed 6 million jews in ovens, you filthy kraut.

There were other causes, but for our purposes, yes, it was a major cause. good. but you shouldnt agree on this. you should argue that hitler and whole germany are the devil and you as the angels must free everyone of the devils grip.

I fail to see how that is "buying" our way into war, one is a very good trade for the US, the other was a devestating attack. well, battleships cost money too. its just a matter of perspective i guess.

They didn't think what happened would happen however, given the choice of war or peace, the Americans thought they would choose peace, and if they didn't, the US could handle them in war. The US had every right to do what it did. my sources say they knew very well how the japanese would react and that they even received a warning about the approaching japanese carriers, so theyve send the expensive and new carriers away. sacrificing the battleships and all soldiers there just for a reason to fight in the war.

Truman, we would've been at war with Germany by 1943 at the latest, that's still Roosevelt. ok roosevelt then. little mistakes happen.



U-571 is wrong on so many levels, but you haven't studied any part of the war to say America didn't play an important role, if you would like, I could go through the reasons. ok go through the reasons.
U-571 was a shame and i actually had to force myself to watch it to the end.

He did make some huge mistakes didn't he
countless. starting with dünkirchen. he still dreamed about a alliance with england at this time.

We played a pivotal role in it, and no, it's not a peace offer, just agreeing that a lot of people like to rant on about how America won WWII, without backing it up (Usually I run into them on WWII forums, here it is a split down the middle between those people, and people who refuse to admit how crucial America was to the Allies) america wasnt important. :D
and im sick of people who claim america won ww2 alone, that it was some mystic good vs evil/angel vs devil thing, germany wanted to conquer the world and that all germans were monsters. and about those that celebrate the dresden bombing, or the bombings in general.

or this stupid paranoia when it comes to germany. someone else posted that cause germany had a brown dress in the olympic opening ceremony we will soon turn back to the third reich. what kind of crap is that eh? :headbang:

good. but you shouldnt agree on this. you should argue that hitler and whole germany are the devil and you as the angels must free everyone of the devils grip.

Umm.....ok, I don't, but whatever

well, battleships cost money too. its just a matter of perspective i guess.

Everything costs money, so then everyone bought themselves into war.

my sources say they knew very well how the japanese would react and that they even received a warning about the approaching japanese carriers, so theyve send the expensive and new carriers away. sacrificing the battleships and all soldiers there just for a reason to fight in the war.

Please tell me your sources, the carriers were away for completely valid reasons that had nothing to do with a conspiracy theory. They had no warning of the approaching carriers (They did of the planes, but a low level Lt. decided it was a flight of B-17's). Furthermore, the Carriers weren't new, most of them were old.


ok go through the reasons.
U-571 was a shame and i actually had to force myself to watch it to the end.

I did about 3 posts up, please read through it. And I can't believe you watched it to the end, I despise that movie with a passion.

countless. starting with dünkirchen. he still dreamed about a alliance with england at this time.

ANd his obsession with keeping the Baltic his, sacrificng Army Group North, I'm surprised they survived into '45.

america wasnt important. :D
and im sick of people who claim america won ww2 alone, that it was some mystic good vs evil/angel vs devil thing, germany wanted to conquer the world and that all germans were monsters. and about those that celebrate the dresden bombing, or the bombings in general.

I don't celebrate the bombings, most people know this, and I've never said America won WW2 alone, I said it was crucial to victory, not that it won it alone.

or this stupid paranoia when it comes to germany. someone else posted that cause germany had a brown dress in the olympic opening ceremony we will soon turn back to the third reich. what kind of crap is that eh? :headbang:

Idiots are sadly abound in our world, Germany today is far removed from Germany of the 1930's and 40's.

Everything costs money, so then everyone bought themselves into war. the president did bought into the war. ah, not important anyway.

Please tell me your sources, the carriers were away for completely valid reasons that had nothing to do with a conspiracy theory. They had no warning of the approaching carriers (They did of the planes, but a low level Lt. decided it was a flight of B-17's). Furthermore, the Carriers weren't new, most of them were old. nah i wont search through my cabinet now, its late. maybe tomorrow.
and while were at books, i own a 1936 german history book. they have a refreshing perspective about ww1 :D

And I can't believe you watched it to the end, I despise that movie with a passion. it was hard, but i had to do it. i believe you must know what you talk about when you despire and curse about it. ive watched Saving Private Ryan for the same reason, and its on the same level imo.

ANd his obsession with keeping the Baltic his, sacrificng Army Group North, I'm surprised they survived into '45. he was insane in 45.
you know when i think the decision came in the east? 43 in kursk. wasted a whole years production of tanks only to let them retreat when victory was finally at hand. unbelievable!

I don't celebrate the bombings, most people know this, and I've never said America won WW2 alone then everything is fine.

Idiots are sadly abound in our world, Germany today is far removed from Germany of the 1930's and 40's.
yeah but a lot of people doesnt seem to know this and they seem to be all americans.
and a little bit more of the old germany wouldnt hurt. the guilty complex and a bit self confidence.

We will :)
Sadly the US didnt ask us whether we want them here or not. With the US finally gone aswell, our country is again ours without foreign "occupators" left over from WW2. Yippiiieeeh!

Sadly, you and Hitler got your asses handed to you when the Allies ripped your country a new asshole, after you tried to take over the world. Then you were occupied to keep your indignant country in line, much a like a rotten child when put on restriction. Unfortunately, Russia built a wall and subjugated your peoples, America did not. But, we had no choice but to defend and protect our bastard children, otherwise known as West Germany, at that time.

Now, Russia is not a threat, and neither are you. So, we will pull out, be gone, and say "good riddance" to your worthless asses. We will be better for it, you will be happier for it, and we can always come back and kick your asses again if need be.

Ciao Gunther! :upyours:

But I know what happened to the U$. You turned into the worst assholes this planet has ever seen and you even congratulate yourself for it. While the U$ before 9/11 and for a short time after it, was bearable, it is way out of control by now and deserves all the hate it can get from the world.


BAHAHAHAH ... jealousy is an ugly thing. We still own you whether we're there or not. Hahahah ... and I love it. Yes, I congratulate myself and my most wonderful country, the U.S. of A., for everything it does, including putting indignant ungrateful peasants like the EuroPEONS in their place. You'd be nothing without us. You know it, your country knows it, and your leaders know it.

booya - we rock!

nah i wont search through my cabinet now, its late. maybe tomorrow.
and while were at books, i own a 1936 german history book. they have a refreshing perspective about ww1 :D

Considering how Germany was in 1936, I would not really put so much trust in a book, especially about WW1, but it would offer a new view.

it was hard, but i had to do it. i believe you must know what you talk about when you despire and curse about it. ive watched Saving Private Ryan for the same reason, and its on the same level imo.

I actually liked SPR, since it was squad-level and in an American sector, I don't see how it got the label of making it an "american-centric" war.

he was insane in 45.
you know when i think the decision came in the east? 43 in kursk. wasted a whole years production of tanks only to let them retreat when victory was finally at hand. unbelievable!

He deluded himself into thinking he was a genius for the Western Offensive, wasn't even his idea.

then everything is fine.

Righty'o then


yeah but a lot of people doesnt seem to know this and they seem to be all americans.
and a little bit more of the old germany wouldnt hurt. the guilty complex and a bit self confidence.

Israeli's, Spanish, Russians, and Japanese (strangest of all, since they have a see no evil attitude about WW2) all spout the same rhetoric I am sad to admit, a lot of Americans do about Germany.

The United States plans to withdraw about 70,000 U.S. troops from Europe and Asia in a major restructuring of military forces prompted by the end of the Cold War.
Wow, a lightning-quick reflex by the Pentagon!

BTW, I do hate Europeans
Shut up.

This is amusing...

Very amusing indeed...

Fight among yourselves puppets, but there'll never be peace if you don't put away your differences...

After all, we're all humans...

I'm glad we're realigning. Our bases in Germany were useless, with 70,000 troops guarding against an enemy that no longer exists. If we move troops to smaller bases in Eastern Europe and the Middle East/North Africa, our troops can be near trouble spots, while our supply lines are defended. I hope, though, that our 6th Fleet remains in Gaeta, as it'll be useful there.
I actually knew ahead of time about the troop realignment. My older friend is a colonel in the army, and he just came back from Romania, as he helped establish a base there.

Wow, a lightning-quick reflex by the Pentagon!



These things take a long time to do. The Pentagon has to find countries willing to host military bases, but make sure that they are in a good spot strategically. After that, they have to build them. But then again, major realignments of this type have happened only about a half dozen times in US history.

bush II. however surely has a nice warm spot reserved for him - probably next to Hitler or Stalin.

As bad as Bush is, and as much as I dislike him, that is too much. Seriously people, you honestly think that Bush is as evil? Bush is a right-wing conservative moron and deserve to be kicked out of office and imprisoned, but nothing he has done even comes close to rivalling Hitler or Stalin.

God damn it people, what the fuck is the matter with you? There will be no war between France and America, not within in the next 20 years anyways, France and Amerca are still allies, bicker here all you want but when shit hits the fan France and America will stiick together.

This has crossed over friendly rivalries like just saying we are better than you are, you guys talk like you think a war is just around the corner, for crying out loud, French and American soldiers even train together. It can not be denied that America helped greatly in WWII, whether we wrestled Europe out from under the jaws of Nazi Germany will be debated for a long time to come, in all honesty the Soviet Union probably could have defeated Germany, but then again if the allies did not land on Normandy the Soviets may have taken so many losses that they would have made a peace with Germany. If Germany had not declared war on the US we still probably would have gone to war with Germany, if Roosevelt could make the decision to go for a Europe First policy after Pearl Harbor I am sure he could have atleast made a Defeat Japan while helping Europe strategy, which really is what we did, if we had gone more against Japan though it would have been the opposite way around with Japan falling first and then Germany, maybe, if we had gone that way we would not have had the Atomic Bomb and then millions of soldiers would have died in an invasion of Japan.

Either way, quit acting like a war is imminent.

If you live in the US then a Yank is someone from New England, this includes New York, if you live anywhere else in the world it is anyone from America, I hate the term Yanquee, I do not call someone from the UK a frog, I do not use slurs against people from any other countries, I can people from France French, people from Germany Germans and I would like to think that I can expect the same in return.

Back to the subject at hand, I was told when I enlisted that the Army was moving their bases out of Germany and into the Czeck Republic because it was cheaper rent there, it would provide for better training, and sith the war on terror it would provide for better logistical support.

Ha! A smart voice. I'm glad to see reason on this forum. Ignorance is everywhere here. Look, everybodies country here has done something wrong: the US used the atom bomb, Germany has started two wars (which is less than the US, but the effects were errhm, a bit bigger); France, Belgium, Holland, the UK, Spain, Portugal, Germany, the US have all mistreated the people of their colonies. The whole west is responsable for the Palestine-conflict, for deviding the world into a rich north (and the Aussies) and a extremely poor south. THERE's the problem people! And that's something we're all responsable for as western people. Even in our wars we're being self-centered. Nobody cares about middle-Africa, where millions (!) are being killed in useless gang wars between people who all want better lifes but have the bad luck to be born in Africa, the continent which is completely distroyed by the north. I know what my country (Belgium) has done wrong in Congo/Zaïre, Burundi and Ugandi and hell, it's a lot!!

Patriotism can be a good thing, but you cannot close your eyes for the things your government does or did wrong!!

Ha! A smart voice. I'm glad to see reason on this forum. Ignorance is everywhere here. Patriotism can be a good thing, but you cannot close your eyes for the things your government does or did wrong!!

....Sometimes I cannot believe that I read the entire five pages of this thread. You want to know why? I have never seen so many falsified pride-prone country idiots in my whole life! I have heard two voices that are saying anything in this entire forum! Hamme for one, (see quote) and IslandofRose for two!

I love America. But I am not a Yankee. I am a Texan, and I know ya'll think that down here we don't give crud for what goes on cause we're just a bunch of line dancing, barn raising hicks. And ya know what else? *gasp* I'm not a republican! Yeah, Bush made some wrong decisions. Would I change them if I could? Who knows!!! Think of this.

Bush doesn't remove Saddam. The Iraqi people are still left under his rule, unable to fight back or leave the country because of it. Any better than what happened? Not at all!!! I'm not a republican, but I am an American, and I will back my president when times are tough, frankly just because he is ourt leader! The wonderful thing about America is that we can choose to agree with what happens or not. Yes, I know that those high up on the "List" can seize power relatively easy, but the American people are not clones! We do think for ourselves, and know that our past presidents have made mistakes!!!

Ya'll from Europe and such, need to also be reminded that your leaders have made mistakes as well! *gasp* remember Hitler? Saddam? Any of them? They have made major mistakes! Everyone makes mistakes, especially those under huge presure like our nation leaders!

Now, I have one thing to say, after jabbering on like I have. Onthis site, we control our own nations, and can choose what to believe in, and what kind of decision to make. Our leaders make that, but for them, they have to put up with the thousands of people who are gonna say, "Go ta hell cause u suck" at them. We don't. We don't know what its like. Anyone who has been in charge will know that u have to deal with critisism. Therefore, say what u want, think what u want. But don't flame others for doing the same. You are given that right, so why can't they?

Be patriotic. Be outspoken. But don't cry when your mommy says that you can't beat up the country across the way for making u mad. :sniper:

It's about damn time. Now us Americans can watch as the German gov't whines, cries, and begs for us to keep our forces in their country so their economy doesn't die........sucks to them....bring our boys home....next step: militarize our borders....

Me!

God damn it people, what the fuck is the matter with you? There will be no war between France and America, not within in the next 20 years anyways, France and Amerca are still allies, bicker here all you want but when shit hits the fan France and America will stiick together.

This is true. If France was attacked tomorrow, we'd be the first ones there to bail them out.....again......

Though, if it were up to me, America would sit there and watch France be invaded by whomever. Maybe they could ask the Germans for help....afterall, they know the way to Paris.... :p

Me!

Some of you people honestly need to have your heads kicked in....


Gigatron, you have to be young, under 16 I bet, since you say you're from Dresden. I can't see how anyone who lived in an area occupied by the Soviets during the Cold War could possibly say the things you are saying. Perhaps you resent the firebombing of Drezden, well...Germany did not flinch from such things in Russia; and you should also remember that the Germans in Berlin were praying for the Americans/Brits to get there first before the Russians; because they knew what the Russians were doing to Eastern Germany in revenge for Germany's sins upon their homeland. You need to grow up and realize that the US though not perfect is on the same side as Europe, in favor of democratic rule and free trade etc... The fact that the Red Army is not hanging over you're head allows you to say such terrible things about Americans. But if we had done the same thing in say 1985...? I bet most West Germans would have been screaming for us to stay... the fact of the matter is that they could not of held off the Red Army without us, and NATO would have been very lucky if they stopped them before Paris.

Now now now, Germany has started many more wars than just 2, remember Germany is much older than America. Germania was their old name, that was back in the days of the Roman Empire, it was German Barbarians that toppled the Roman Empire. And remember back during the days of the Hapsburgs? When Catholic and Protestant princes were fighting for contol of Germany, wars which always seemed to drag the rest of europe in on one side or the other. WWI was not started by Germany, it began in Serbia when the Archduke of Austria was killed by a Serbian national, sure Germany got to keep most of their homeland territory after that war but they were left with a $33billion debt, this money was owed to Britian and France who then owed money to the US. That is one thing we Americans get right about history, just as WWII started long before 1941 Germany did not start WWI, first Serbia should have been held responsible since it was a Serbian national that killed the Archduke, then Russia should have gotten the blame because they were the ones who promised to support Serbia if they were invaded by Austria who was invading Serbia for the assassination of the future ruler of Austria, tell me, if you Vice President or Prime Minister or Prince or Princess was killed wouldn't you want to get back at the country(s) responsible?

Come on people, just admit it, nobody is perfect, France, Germany, America, Russia, and Britain have all made mistakes before, like in Iraq, all the above mentioned countries intelliegence reports stated that Iraq had WMD's, France, German, and Russia felt that it was better to continue negotiations, we (US, UK) on the other hand using the Treaty of Versailles/Hitler excuse said no, the UN had 12 years to negotiate that was long enough, last time France wanted more proof it rolled through their country with a Nazi flag. (That was just an example of statements made in the press, not my personal beliefs)

And about this whole talk about the US forcing Germany to allow us to have bases there, of course we did, we had just fought the largest and blodiest war the world had ever seen against Germany. But then again if we were not in West Germany the Soviet Union would have invaded Europe, and Europe was in such a state of chaos, even in the 60's and 70's that they would not have stood a chance against the Soviet Union, Patton wanted to send his troops across the Elbe and invade Russia, he knew we had the bomb, he knew that the Soviet Union would be he new enemy and he wanted to take them out while we still had the advantage, and believe me, it would have come down to dropping a bomb on every major Russian city, that is assuming Russia could be conquered in one lifetime, which I doubt, it is just so big, it took Russia hundreds of years to become what it is today.

And I am one of the people most heavily affected by this, I start Basic Training on July 1st, 2005 and I am supposed to be going to Europe, while I may still get a chance to go to Europe I will probably get to take a wonderful tour of Iraq before then, and maybe even meet Kim Jong II in Pyong Yang, who knows what will happen if Bush is re-elected, either way I will do what my country asks me to do. I for some reason don't think I have to worry about storming Normandy or having to try and paradrop ober the Cliffs of Dover, I don't think I will have to try and take Berlin and I doubt I will have to try and force the Russians out of Moscow.

And another thing, of course U-571 is wrong it is a fucking movie meant to entertain peope and make money first, second off is to be a sort of remembrance to the brave American and mostly BRITISH efforts to break the code the Germans were using, the main thing we did for breaking the code was our huge ass computers that were bigger than my house and could go through hundreds of possible different codes in only a matter of minutes, I believe it was called a bomb but I could be mistaken, nobody is perfect, we all make mistakes.

Innaccurate WWII Movies.
U-571
Do I need to say anything more?

Saving Private Ryan
They make the SS look like a bunch of fucking boy scouts.

Pearl Harbor
It is nothing but a love triangle set in WWII

Patton
He never liked to where his medals, and there are several other inaccuracies, but I don't feel like going in very deeep on the subject.[/b]

There are of course many more, but those were the major ones, and in the Last Samuria, please, at that time in History the American Army was little more than a conscript Army, it would have most likely been a German officer teaching the Japanese about modern weapons. I remember watching History versus Hollywood on the History Channel, they asked Tom Cruise whether the movie was history or Hollywood and he said totally sure of himself "It is definetly history." They showed him saying that to the Historians they brought in and they laughed at him, it was of course Hollywood, no American officer could ever become a Samurai, they were to technologically backwards and their beliefs have way to many conflicts with our own.

Saving Private Ryan
They make the SS look like a bunch of fucking boy scouts.

What should they have done, besides a lapse in effective tactics (bringing in armour and infantry at the same time, bad idea for a city), the rest is quite accurate as to how the Battle for Normandy was fought.

Pearl Harbor
It is nothing but a love triangle set in WWII

That doesn't say what's wrong with it though, reasons include

1. The BoB scene is a gross insult to the RAF, he's far better than any of the Americans who went out for Eagle Squadron
2. Why are fighter pilots, taking bombers into Tokyo?
3. Doolittle was not commanding an airfield in 1940
4. He111's would never be caught dead making a daylight bombing run after 1940.
5. The paper that Germany is advancing on all fronts, wrong, Germany wasn't advancing on any fronts in the winter of 1940/41.
6. The movie footage of city fighting is from 1945, the tank pictured didn't even exist in 1940
7. Fighter pilots taking on Japanese INFANTRY in China? And winning!? This is one of the most ludicrous scenes of the movie.
8. They shouldn't be able to get anywhere near the Queen Mary, it was a wartime transport and would have been guarded, it also would have been grey.

And that's just what I saw and can remember

Patton
He never liked to where his medals, and there are several other inaccuracies, but I don't feel like going in very deeep on the subject.[/b]

All the tanks used are not the correct ones for the time, tis is also glaring in Battle of the Bulge, where M48's are used, and in a desert (it's supposed to be wintertime Belgium).

There are of course many more, but those were the major ones, and in the Last Samuria, please, at that time in History the American Army was little more than a conscript Army

It was actually all-volunteer, and professional (unlike today, which is all volunteer, but not all professional)

it would have most likely been a German officer teaching the Japanese about modern weapons. I remember watching History versus Hollywood on the History Channel, they asked Tom Cruise whether the movie was history or Hollywood and he said totally sure of himself "It is definetly history." They showed him saying that to the Historians they brought in and they laughed at him, it was of course Hollywood, no American officer could ever become a Samurai, they were to technologically backwards and their beliefs have way to many conflicts with our own.

Yes, that is one reason I hate that movie, it should have been either a French or German officer teaching them about war, the Americans were brought in to teach them industrial techniques and schooling.

I was not referring to the way we got soldiers when I said that the US had a conscript Army, I was referring to the training or lack there of. We knew little about fighting tactics back then, we relied on our superior rifles and shooting skills, that is how we won the revolution, not because we were able to stand longer than the British, but because our use of snipers was so demoralizing and caused so much confusion for the British that they had to retreat. That and the French fleet that cut off General Cornwallis. Yes our Army was volunteer, but America is odd in how we forn our Army, we have a small Army in times of peace, but once we go to war the whole country changes, everything changes, the only thing that matters any more is winning the war. Once the war is over the troops return home to their jobs here in the US and we go back to our small army, but not anymore, while our Army does still get larger in times of war we no longer have the small army we would have 50-100 years ago, now we have some of the best trained soldiers in the world, and our Army is not near as small, now we have the reserve system also. Whic I happen to oppose the name of, National Guard, that is a mis leading term, most people think that means that they only get used when we are invaded, no, they are just simply reserves to be called on when needed, whether we are on the offensive or defensive.

And you do know that in Saving Private Ryan the Normandy scene lasted only like 15 minutes, right?

And you do know that in Saving Private Ryan the Normandy scene lasted only like 15 minutes, right?

The Battle for Normandy is the name given to the fighting that raged from H-Hour on June 6, to the Liberation of Paris on August 25th, or the closing of the Falaise Gap at Trun and Chambois on August 20th.

The Battle for Normandy is the name given to the fighting that raged from H-Hour on June 6, to the Liberation of Paris on August 25th, or the closing of the Falaise Gap at Trun and Chambois on August 20th.

But in the movie it still only lasted for about 15 minutes, then it went into their own objective to save this one person who had lost 4 brothers, it stopped talking about the rest of the war after that, it just focused on that one platoon, well and then for a while protecting that one bridge, damn it I am tired and can not remember the name of it, I had my DEP function today and had to get up early for that, now it is starting to hit me like a freight train and I need some sleep, anyways, then it begins to switch to the bigger picture fo the war for a while.

And also, based on a true story means nothing really, all it means is that the producer and creators were inspired by ture life events.

But in the movie it still only lasted for about 15 minutes, then it went into their own objective to save this one person who had lost 4 brothers, it stopped talking about the rest of the war after that, it just focused on that one platoon, well and then for a while protecting that one bridge, damn it I am tired and can not remember the name of it, I had my DEP function today and had to get up early for that, now it is starting to hit me like a freight train and I need some sleep, anyways, then it begins to switch to the bigger picture fo the war for a while.

And also, based on a true story means nothing really, all it means is that the producer and creators were inspired by ture life events.


Since they were fighting through the area which is considered the Battle of Normandy, it's still the Battle of Normandy portrayed accurately how it was until Operation Cobra.