NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.bloomberg.com/energy/
Look at Nymex crude. That jumped between $6-$7 this week alone, which is about a 15% jump. Now look at gasoline prices. The price for wholesale gas has remained pretty much unchanged. Well, despite the fact that this oil price is, according to the IEA, "irrational exuberance", analysts say that it's a matter of time before these prices seep to the pump. They weren't saying that a week ago. So, come Tuesday, and expect the national average for a gallon of gas to exceed $2 again. It may even go higher. Good luck, motorists.

http://www.bloomberg.com/energy/
Look at Nymex crude. That jumped between $6-$7 this week alone, which is about a 15% jump. Now look at gasoline prices. The price for wholesale gas has remained pretty much unchanged. Well, despite the fact that this oil price is, according to the IEA, "irrational exuberance", analysts say that it's a matter of time before these prices seep to the pump. They weren't saying that a week ago. So, come Tuesday, and expect the national average for a gallon of gas to exceed $2 again. It may even go higher. Good luck, motorists.

To be fair, it's hardly expensive. Here petrol is 10 kr/liter, which is around 1,10US$ I think.
I believe a gallon is quite a lot more than a liter?
So, really you shouldn't complain too much!

To be fair, it's hardly expensive. Here petrol is 10 kr/liter, which is around 1,10US$ I think.
I believe a gallon is quite a lot more than a liter?
So, really you shouldn't complain too much!
a what?

To be fair, it's hardly expensive. Here petrol is 10 kr/liter, which is around 1,10US$ I think.
I believe a gallon is quite a lot more than a liter?
So, really you shouldn't complain too much!
Why did I think you'd bring up something like that?
Yes, gas is relatively cheap, here. But we're use to it being cheaper. I live in Upstate New York, and currently pay $2/gallon. I don't complain that someone in Tulsa pays $1.50/gallon. That would be seen as very cheap for us, but I don't complain. It's expensive for them.

What I mean is, that for the USA, maybe higher petrol prices will be a good thing, as it might make people take a bit more respect for the environment and purchase more fuel efficient vehicles.

Although, I doubt this will happen until your fuel prices become significantly higher than present, which could only really be achieved by taxation.

By the way, what is the price of fuel in the USA in liters? No countries here price their fuel in galloons (even Britain), and it would be easier to compare?
[By the way, hasn't the USA supposed to have gone metric now?]

To clarify...Borgoa is paying more than twice as much for gas as Americans. In other words the price in the real world.

By the way, what is the price of fuel in the USA in liters? No countries here price their fuel in galloons (even Britain), and it would be easier to compare?
[By the way, hasn't the USA supposed to have gone metric now?]
i'd guess about 45 cents a liter here, thats assuming i calculated it right

metric? screw that

To clarify...Borgoa is paying more than twice as much for gas as Americans. In other words the price in the real world.
yeah, i remember a daily show segment about it

What I mean is, that for the USA, maybe higher petrol prices will be a good thing, as it might make people take a bit more respect for the environment and purchase more fuel efficient vehicles.

Although, I doubt this will happen until your fuel prices become significantly higher than present, which could only really be achieved by taxation.
Relax, please.I have faith in the booming natural gas economy. I've spent threads on this before, and won't repeat every detail, but I'll share a little tidbit. Natural gas is often seen as a bridge between oil and whatever lays beyond (probably hydrogen). All new power plants in the US run off it, and it'll soon become more abundant. 16 LNG facilities are being built in Baja California alone. In addition, there's now technology converting natural gas into a form of synthetic gasoline, as well as deisel and aviation fuel. The best part, of course, is that natural gas is fairly expensive, producing an almost lemming like rush to build these LNG facilities. They should pay off in about twenty years, too.

To clarify...Borgoa is paying more than twice as much for gas as Americans. In other words the price in the real world.
No, there are reasons why the gasoline prices are so high. For one, gasoline in Europe is tariffed. For another, property is scarce, and high property values mean high property taxes. Plus, I suspect European nations tax gasoline more. In other parts of the world, it's far cheaper. The cheapest, actually, is in Iraq. A gallon there costs just $0.05.

What I mean is, that for the USA, maybe higher petrol prices will be a good thing, as it might make people take a bit more respect for the environment and purchase more fuel efficient vehicles.

Although, I doubt this will happen until your fuel prices become significantly higher than present, which could only really be achieved by taxation.

Upping the price on gasoline is NOT the answer for a switch to fuel efficient vehicles. Lowering the price of fuel efficient technology is. I agree with you in wanting the market to sort this one out, but raising prices arbitrarily doesn't make economic sense.

Could we offer tax breaks to hybrid/hydrogen users?

i'd guess about 45 cents a liter here, thats assuming i calculated it right

metric? screw that

ok, so that would mean (if I've converted to dollars correctly!), you pay less than half of the Swedish price for fuel. And we don't pay the most in Europe, I think that Germany and Britain pay more than us.

This does however mean that people here will consider if their journey is necessary and not drive for the shear sake of it and also consider purchasing more fuel efficient cars. This all is a benefit for the environment. Although, I don't think we should pay any more than the present cost, as it's approaching the <too high> mark.

Upping the price on gasoline is NOT the answer for a switch to fuel efficient vehicles. Lowering the price of fuel efficient technology is. I agree with you in wanting the market to sort this one out, but raising prices arbitrarily doesn't make economic sense.

Could we offer tax breaks to hybrid/hydrogen users?
That's actually been an idea suggested by all three CEOs of the big three autos. It's strange, because it'd benefit Japanese companies' sales more than Detroit's.

ok, so that would mean (if I've converted to dollars correctly!), you pay less than half of the Swedish price for fuel. And we don't pay the most in Europe, I think that Germany and Britain pay more than us.

This does however mean that people here will consider if their journey is necessary and not drive for the shear sake of it and also consider purchasing more fuel efficient cars. This all is a benefit for the environment. Although, I don't think we should pay any more than the present cost, as it's approaching the <too high> mark.
Like I said, high gas prices are due to high property values. Germany and Britain have the most expensive gas because they have the least amount of land, but the highest demand for it.

Upping the price on gasoline is NOT the answer for a switch to fuel efficient vehicles. Lowering the price of fuel efficient technology is. I agree with you in wanting the market to sort this one out, but raising prices arbitrarily doesn't make economic sense.

Could we offer tax breaks to hybrid/hydrogen users?

Probably a combination of the two would be best. American cars are currently less fuel effecient than European ones, and American car-buyers tend to opt for bigger less efficient models, such as 'SUVs'. I read the other day that only 5% of American SUVs ever go off-road!

I realise Americans have a very different attitude to the role of the state and taxation that to here, but surely when the cause is the environment, an exception could be made?

Like I said, high gas prices are due to high property values. Germany and Britain have the most expensive gas because they have the least amount of land, but the highest demand for it.

I don't understand, how does property prices affect fuel costs?
Britain and Germany have higher rates of fuel tax, I think that's the reason. The basic price of petrol minus VAT and taxes is pretty constant across the continent. Much like alcohol, it's the tax on top of the "raw material" price that leads to national differences here.

Probably a combination of the two would be best. American cars are currently less fuel effecient than European ones, and American car-buyers tend to opt for bigger less efficient models, such as 'SUVs'. I read the other day that only 5% of American SUVs ever go off-road!

I realise Americans have a very different attitude to the role of the state and taxation that to here, but surely when the cause is the environment, an exception could be made?
haha, silly, SUVs arnt for going offroad, they are for soccer moms insecure with their sexuality so wants a big car thats not a truck but has the holding capacity of a minivan so they can intimidate other people and run over pedestrians while polluting the environment

people who actually go off road have crappy vehicles: old trucks and crappy littel cars like toyotas and stuff that would end up getting stuck anyway

man, this is america, fuck the economy, kill all the animals except the cute ones, eat those, then drill the area for oil, doesnt matter where it is, and make sure we use a crappy gas powered drill

Oh, btw, the Swedes currently on here should also notice higher gas prices. Perhaps not noticebly higher, as gas prices are already high. But Dated Brent was the fastest growing crude future this week.

That's actually been an idea suggested by all three CEOs of the big three autos. It's strange, because it'd benefit Japanese companies' sales more than Detroit's.

Yes. We should have done the R&D a Loooong time ago on this.

One of the big reasons why oil prices are higher is increased demand, not decreased supply. A lot of this demand is from China.

We could really get a step up if we just devoted a lot more $$$ to hydrogen/next generation fuel sources, which could reduce oil demands, then sell the technology to China later.

I don't understand, how does property prices affect fuel costs?
Britain and Germany have higher rates of fuel tax, I think that's the reason. The basic price of petrol minus VAT and taxes is pretty constant across the continent. Much like alcohol, it's the tax on top of the "raw material" price that leads to national differences here.
Because the higher the property values, the more a government can collect in property taxes. Now I've heard somewhere that most Europeans live in apartments, and don't pay property taxes. I undenrstand. However, that's how many governments around the world base their property taxes: by the cost of the real estate. They even send appraisers out a few times every year, to make sure they collect their fair share.

Oh, btw, the Swedes currently on here should also notice higher gas prices. Perhaps not noticebly higher, as gas prices are already high. But Dated Brent was the fastest growing crude future this week.
oh yes, i agree, the price has gone up recently with events in Irak, Saudi Arabia, Venezuela and Yukos in Russia etc.

Because the higher the property values, the more a government can collect in property taxes. Now I've heard somewhere that most Europeans live in apartments, and don't pay property taxes. I undenrstand. However, that's how many governments around the world base their property taxes: by the cost of the real estate. They even send appraisers out a few times every year, to make sure they collect their fair share.

Sorry, I may be being a bit "thick", but I still don't understand.
Surely if you're saying that because property prices are higher in Germany and Britain and therefore their governments get higher property tax revenues, that should mean they wouldn't need to tax petrol as much?
I really don't understand!

Yes. We should have done the R&D a Loooong time ago on this.

One of the big reasons why oil prices are higher is increased demand, not decreased supply. A lot of this demand is from China.

We could really get a step up if we just devoted a lot more $$$ to hydrogen/next generation fuel sources, which could reduce oil demands, then sell the technology to China later.
I know. The hydrogen bubble of a few years ago has popped, but I'm sure it'll be back. Tech and the Japanese economy had a bubble, and they're both back. Besides, hydrogen is so incredibally versatile, and can be produced cheaply in a number of ways. I've heard that, upon initial experimentation, pond scum produced so much hydrogen in a flask, that it actually clouded the flask with hydrogen gas. Since then, five times the hydrogen can be produced with pond scum.
The reason why alternative energy opponets want a natural gas economy, btw, is because it's the cheapest way yet to create hydrogen. That should act as a bridge. In fact, natural gas is expected to replace oil as the world's primary fuel source by 2025.

I realise Americans have a very different attitude to the role of the state and taxation that to here, but surely when the cause is the environment, an exception could be made?

Raising prices arbitrarily isn't a good idea. It just gouges consumers.

Besides, the cause is not primarily the environment. The chief cause is economic: hydrogen will eventually cost less and be more efficient. The next is geopolitical (read Mid-East).

Sorry, I may be being a bit "thick", but I still don't understand.
Surely if you're saying that because property prices are higher in Germany and Britain and therefore their governments get higher property tax revenues, that should mean they wouldn't need to tax petrol as much?
I really don't understand!
I guess that needs more explaining. Most gas stations have to pay property taxes, right? This is part of their operating expenditures. To prevent themselves from loosing money, they pass the cost on to you, the consumer. I believe this applies to most every product, including food. In fact, do you know the price for a loaf of bread? Just tell me in Krona, I'll do the conversions myself.

Raising prices arbitrarily isn't a good idea. It just gouges consumers.

Besides, the cause is not primarily the environment. The chief cause is economic: hydrogen will eventually cost less and be more efficient. The next is geopolitical (read Mid-East).

Yeah, undoubtably the current rise in price is due to political reasons, as I mentioned above (middle east, Yukos etc).

But generally speaking, the price of fuel is too low to encourage sensible use of petrol that would be less damaging to the world's environment.

Perhaps one would need to accompany any environmental tax rise with educating the consumer to its necessity. Unfortunately, I think the environment is more important than if the consumer gets a little bit annoyed.

Yeah, undoubtably the current rise in price is due to political reasons, as I mentioned above (middle east, Yukos etc).

I disagree. Yukos is a huge part, but I think it's just increased demand, mostly from China.

As for terrorism, that sells papers, it doesn't disrupt oil. Or at least hasn't too much.

I guess that needs more explaining. Most gas stations have to pay property taxes, right? This is part of their operating expenditures. To prevent themselves from loosing money, they pass the cost on to you, the consumer. I believe this applies to most every product, including food. In fact, do you know the price for a loaf of bread? Just tell me in Krona, I'll do the conversions myself.

Ok, I see. Yes, that would be true, but not a major component of the fuel price.

I don't think bread would be a good example in comparing Sweden with the USA, I've tried American bread!!

But yes, most "consumer goods" / commodities etc are cheaper in the USA. You have far lower taxation and you benefit from having a larger consumer base (there's only 9 million or so of us!) = economies of scale, more price competition. You also don't need to pay as much tax as your government does not provide as high level of service to the citizens as ours (by the way, that's not a critisism, because I would imagine an American wouldn't expect the American government to do so - in the same way as we Swedes would get pissed off if ours didn't do so!).

Ok, I see. Yes, that would be true, but not a major component of the fuel price.

I don't think bread would be a good example in comparing Sweden with the USA, I've tried American bread!!

But yes, most "consumer goods" / commodities etc are cheaper in the USA. You have far lower taxation and you benefit from having a larger consumer base (there's only 9 million or so of us!) = economies of scale, more price competition. You also don't need to pay as much tax as your government does not provide as high level of service to the citizens as ours (by the way, that's not a critisism, because I would imagine an American wouldn't expect the American government to do so - in the same way as we Swedes would get pissed off if ours didn't do so!).
You're right about taxation. Not many Americans want much from the government, and thus, they don't take much from us.
Property values, btw, must account for a fair share of gas prices. There's also the costs for the refineries. Have you ever seen one? They're huge! They're usually waterfront property, and refineries have to compete with pre-existing historic waterfronts, and beach houses. Waterfront property anywhere in the world isn't cheap, and refineries need a lot. If the Swedish government decided not to collect property taxes on them, imagine how low your gas prices would be. In fact, I'd have to say that the reason why Swedish income taxes aren't even higher is because of the high property costs, reflected in consumer costs.

You're right about taxation. Not many Americans want much from the government, and thus, they don't take much from us.
Property values, btw, must account for a fair share of gas prices. There's also the costs for the refineries. Have you ever seen one? They're huge! They're usually waterfront property, and refineries have to compete with pre-existing historic waterfronts, and beach houses. Waterfront property anywhere in the world isn't cheap, and refineries need a lot. If the Swedish government decided not to collect property taxes on them, imagine how low your gas prices would be. In fact, I'd have to say that the reason why Swedish income taxes aren't even higher is because of the high property costs, reflected in consumer costs.

oh yes, I have seen how absolutely scarily huge they are. I was once out a small rowing boat size boat (but with an engine) with a friend in finland. We came down round a corner to find the Finnish petrol company Neste's huge Sköldvik refinery. Absolutely massive and quite threatening when your are in such a small boat!

At the end of the day, when it comes to tax, you get what you pay for. And I really don't mind paying our taxes when I see results and a little more social equality here than exists in some countries. But, that's a choice for the electorates to make.

By the way, using hamburger economics (!), here's a comparison of the price of Big Mac in Sweden and USA (it's even in dollars!)

Sweden: 3,94 $
USA: 2,90 $ (average price in may)

oh yes, I have seen how absolutely scarily huge they are. I was once out a small rowing boat size boat (but with an engine) with a friend in finland. We came down round a corner to find the Finnish petrol company Neste's huge Sköldvik refinery. Absolutely massive and quite threatening when your are in such a small boat!

At the end of the day, when it comes to tax, you get what you pay for. And I really don't mind paying our taxes when I see results and a little more social equality here than exists in some countries. But, that's a choice for the electorates to make.

By the way, using hamburger economics (!), here's a comparison of the price of Big Mac in Sweden and USA (it's even in dollars!)

Sweden: 3,94 $
USA: 2,90 $ (average price in may)
Yeah, that's a fair comparison. McDonald's is everywhere, nowadays :(.

Yeah, that's a fair comparison. McDonald's is everywhere, nowadays :(.

Yes, I agree with your :( at the end of that statement!!

Just as an American person, how do you see your country's environmental policies moving forward. We see America rejecting Kioto, in what is perceived here as quite a selfish way ("It will hurt our economy, so we're not joining in"). Do you think there is a way to ween the Americans off their love of high fuel consuming cars and lack of stronger environmental protection rules?

(BTW, Europe is far from perfect on the environment issue -we could and should be doing a lot more. But, we have at least made a modest start).

I got few points to bring up. First off is that a large part of the gas price problem is that (at least in the US) there hasn't been a new gasoline refinery built since the 70's and the current ones are so busy they don't have time to shut down for proper maintenance, can't supply the demand-so raise the prices. Second, SUV's are really only around for two reasons at least in the US, first is that people wanna be differant so they all rush to buy SUV's to be differant then all the other people (rushing to buy SUV's) and the other reason is that for some reason the US decided that the station wagons were unsafe. So people made mini-vans and now that mini-vans are taking heat people are switching to SUVs. My last point is for the people from other countries (other than the us, most notably the eurpean ones) most people in the US drive farther then in alot of other countries. I mean come on, most states in the US are bigger then most other countries. So while yes our gas prices are lower then alot of others, we drive far more so it actually makes up for it. I mean when I go to work I put 50miles on my car per day. And I've got a fairly short drive.

Yes, I agree with your :( at the end of that statement!!

Just as an American person, how do you see your country's environmental policies moving forward. We see America rejecting Kioto, in what is perceived here as quite a selfish way ("It will hurt our economy, so we're not joining in"). Do you think there is a way to ween the Americans off their love of high fuel consuming cars and lack of stronger environmental protection rules?

(BTW, Europe is far from perfect on the environment issue -we could and should be doing a lot more. But, we have at least made a modest start).
Well, I did read a book on enegy policy. Kyoto would hurt America. It'd cost our economy 4% a year, compared with 3% of Europe and just 2.5% of Japan's.
I personally don't feel like much of an environmental push is needed. Energy intensity peaked in the US in 1920, and is now declining at a rate of 2% a year. I've heard that if we push it toward 3%, global CO2 emissions will peak around 2040.
What we really need to do is stop our main polluters: coal power plants. They make around 70% of our energy supply. That same percentage is lost as heat, most converting into CO2 anyways. If we can harness that (and the technology exists) our environment would be cleaner, and coal-fired electricity would be cheaper.
Of course, I have to give you a warning: you're treading in dangerous water here. I'm a Republican :).

USA does produce 25% of the world's greenhouse gas pollution, so without you taking part, Kioto's effectiveness is seriously weakened.

It does take courage to put the environment before one's economy, but it simply has to be done.

Don't worry about being a Republican (nobody's perfect ;) ), i don't really understand all this "Conservative vs Liberal" stuff on here. It gives me the impression that America is very polarised - and yet, when I read about what Republicans and Democrats stand for, they don't seem ever so far apart! Also, to me it doesn't make sense, as here a liberal would be centrist or centre-right believing less state regulation etc, which seems to be the opposite of what liberal means to Americans on here.

USA does produce 25% of the world's greenhouse gas pollution, so without you taking part, Kioto's effectiveness is seriously weakened.

It does take courage to put the environment before one's economy, but it simply has to be done.

Don't worry about being a Republican (nobody's perfect ;) ), i don't really understand all this "Conservative vs Liberal" stuff on here. It gives me the impression that America is very polarised - and yet, when I read about what Republicans and Democrats stand for, they don't seem ever so far apart! Also, to me it doesn't make sense, as here a liberal would be centrist or centre-right believing less state regulation etc, which seems to be the opposite of what liberal means to Americans on here.
I'm in favor of a balance between the two. The US has come a long way since thirty years ago, when we had more air and water pollution. As an economy developes, the environment becomes cleaner. I'm quite optimistic that it'll take only some additional government prodding for the US environment to become clean. Then we can worry about China:).

bump

Gosh, I'm really surprised more people aren't worried by the impending price spike. Roach Busters, are you? :D

Yeah, I guess I am.

Yeah, I guess I am.
Ok. I hope this can grow my thread a bit.

Ah, Americans. Remember the days not even a few years ago. Gas prices were less than a buck fifty. In some regions of the country, a gallon of gas was bellow a buck. Now, full service in San Diego is $3.00.

Ah, Americans. Remember the days not even a few years ago. Gas prices were less than a buck fifty. In some regions of the country, a gallon of gas was bellow a buck. Now, full service in San Diego is $3.00.

Ah, the good old days as it were. One thing that I've enjoyed about higher prices however is, the owner of a local gas station has decided if we are going to pay so much, we might as well enjoy ourselves, so he plays his guitar and sings outside at the pumps, it's quite enjoyable.

Now, full service in San Diego is $3.00.

:eek: In Minnesota (at least, my area), it's in the neighborhood of $1.60-1.80

Ah, the good old days as it were. One thing that I've enjoyed about higher prices however is, the owner of a local gas station has decided if we are going to pay so much, we might as well enjoy ourselves, so he plays his guitar and sings outside at the pumps, it's quite enjoyable.
That's nice. It's what real customer service is all about.
During the price spike in 2000, I've heard that, in order to protest high gas prices, a gas station owner sold his gas of one cent a gallon. However, in Baghdad, retail price for gasoline is $0.05. The amazing thing is that, right now, all oil for domestic use is imported.

:eek: In Minnesota (at least, my area), it's in the neighborhood of $1.60-1.80
That's a bargain, here. In Upstate New York, it hoovers at around $2.10 for regular unleaded.

You know, actually, I heard some good news about gas prices. According to the Federal Reserve, Americans spend only 2% of our disposable income on fuel, compared with 4% just twenty years ago.

Here around Boston the price has been hovering at just over $2.00, though recently it's been nearing or hitting $2.10, a relief from the $2.50 it was for awhile.

The Iraq prices are confusing, perhaps it's becuase there is not much demand. IIRC, the price in Venezuela (which does not import fuel afaik) is $0.14 a gallon.

Here around Boston the price has been hovering at just over $2.00, though recently it's been nearing or hitting $2.10, a relief from the $2.50 it was for awhile.

The Iraq prices are confusing, perhaps it's becuase there is not much demand. IIRC, the price in Venezuela (which does not import fuel afaik) is $0.14 a gallon.
That high? Whoa. Well, beginning this week, we can kiss our temporary reprieve good bye. It might even surpass $2.50 in Boston, as crude futures are at a record high.
Venezuela, btw, may change soon. With their impending recall, I fear civil war. In addition to destabilizing the region, it'll also cut oil production. It'll make oil far more expensive there than today, and probably here, too. Of course, the Venezuelan state oil company owns Citgo, so I expect prices there to really spike.
As for Iraq, I don't know why oil there is cheap. But they say they need it, and it's helping fuel a business boom. New taxi cabs are popping up every day there.

Bumping for the night watch. I find energy an interesting topic, and this is a great way to connect with the world on it. Ciao, amici!

It does take courage to put the environment before one's economy, but it simply has to be done.

No. It's not good to do so. The environment and industry don't have to be at odds with one another. We don't have to shoot ourselves in the foot when we can help the environment actively.

No. It's not good to do so. The environment and industry don't have to be at odds with one another. We don't have to shoot ourselves in the foot when we can help the environment actively.

Well start doing it then!

You know, actually, I heard some good news about gas prices. According to the Federal Reserve, Americans spend only 2% of our disposable income on fuel, compared with 4% just twenty years ago.
only because minimum wage has increased, the cost of living has gone up without further changes in wages, and cars have become more efficient, well some

For clarification, 1 Gallon ~ 3.79 Liters.

That's a bargain, here. In Upstate New York, it hoovers at around $2.10 for regular unleaded.


Heh, in Georgia we pay about 1.60-1.80 for our gas. Even in Atlanta it's not that expensive.

Well start doing it then!
What makes you think we aren't?

only because minimum wage has increased, the cost of living has gone up without further changes in wages, and cars have become more efficient, well some
I know what you're trying to do, but I welcome it. Anyhow, it can also be due to, in part, that the US economy gained $5.5 trillion in just twenty years.

Heh, in Georgia we pay about 1.60-1.80 for our gas. Even in Atlanta it's not that expensive.
Yeah, the south tends to be less expensive. Perhaps it's because of its proximity to oil wells in Texas and Mexico. Unfortunatly, that may change this week.

Excuse me a minute....
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA... *gasp* HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA... *gasp* HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA... *gasp* HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...

Stupid <city> motorists! I take public transit! I laugh at all of you because I'll have spending money and you'll all have spent it on gas to fill up everything from efficient cars to gas-guzzling SUVs! I LOVE IT! LONG LIVE PUBLIC TRANSIT!!

Excuse me a minute....
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA... *gasp* HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA... *gasp* HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA... *gasp* HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA... *gasp* HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...

Stupid motorists! I take public transit! I laugh at all of you because I'll have spending money and you'll all have spent it on gas to fill up everything from efficient cars to gas-guzzling SUVs! I LOVE IT! LONG LIVE PUBLIC TRANSIT!!
down here in the real world outside of the big cities there is or basically is NO public transit

By the way, what is the price of fuel in the USA in liters? No countries here price their fuel in galloons (even Britain), and it would be easier to compare?
[By the way, hasn't the USA supposed to have gone metric now?]

I sure to god hope we don't go metric.

down here in the real world outside of the big cities there is or basically is NO public transit
You can always ride a bike, walk, carpool... But, seriously, I'm laughing because many motorists don't do the smart thing. Plus, all the SUV owners in a time like this is so amusing...
But, in the rural areas...no, I'm not laughing at you, just the stupid motorists in the city.

I know you Americans are used to lower prices and all, but I still can't help but laugh when you complain. It'd probably be cheaper for me to drive to a dock, hop the Atlantic, fill up there and come back than it would to fill up at the local petrol station. But meh, I'm too lazy. Oh, and I already feel the pinch. Petrol prices have gone up by what must be three or four, maybe five pence per litre at my local.

I know you Americans are used to lower prices and all, but I still can't help but laugh when you complain. It'd probably be cheaper for me to drive to a dock, hop the Atlantic, fill up there and come back than it would to fill up at the local petrol station. But meh, I'm too lazy. Oh, and I already feel the pinch. Petrol prices have gone up by what must be three or four, maybe five pence per litre at my local.
I knew it, people from other countries would come and lecture us Americans. Don't forget, the rest of the developed world has higher prices for everything.

It wasn't a lecture, just an observation :rolleyes:

You can always ride a bike, walk, carpool... But, seriously, I'm laughing because many motorists don't do the smart thing. Plus, all the SUV owners in a time like this is so amusing...
But, in the rural areas...no, I'm not laughing at you, just the stupid motorists in the city.
The reason public transportation is so infrequently used is because of the lack of convienience it offers. I've heard, however, that they'll build this one system in Minneapolis in a few years. It's cars on elevated tracks. You go to a kiosk that acts as a station, and call one, as if calling a cab. An automated car comes, guided completely by tracks. You enter your destination, and it goes there. Since it's on tracks, btw, all power is derived from electricity. The last barrier is the price, at $900 million. Still, I think that's cheap for such a revolutionary system.

It wasn't a lecture, just an observation :rolleyes:
the rest of the world doesnt have ungodly drug prices

It wasn't a lecture, just an observation :rolleyes:
Hopefully it was. However, I have to group them all with lectures. It's more safe to do that :).

The reason public transportation is so infrequently used is because of the lack of convienience it offers.

I'll second that.

I sure to god hope we don't go metric.
Too late. We measure too much in metric now so that I'll be using only metric once I die.

The reason why our gas prices are lower than any other developed nation stretches back to the Carter Administration. See, back then, OPEC caused a little crisis to flex their political muscle. The Carter Administration(in probably it's only smart move in four years) basically said, 'Fine. We'll do without.' and put into place tax credits and various other incentives to develop alternative energy and domestic oil supplies. OPEC went, 'Whoa! Whoa! Hold on! How about we give you a big discount?' UNfortunately, the Carter Administration said, sure! Even more unfortunately, the Reagan Administration(in which I think was it's dumbest move in eight years) dismantled America's new energy policy again.

The reason why our gas prices are lower than any other developed nation stretches back to the Carter Administration. See, back then, OPEC caused a little crisis to flex their political muscle. The Carter Administration(in probably it's only smart move in four years) basically said, 'Fine. We'll do without.' and put into place tax credits and various other incentives to develop alternative energy and domestic oil supplies. OPEC went, 'Whoa! Whoa! Hold on! How about we give you a big discount?' UNfortunately, the Carter Administration said, sure! Even more unfortunately, the Reagan Administration(in which I think was it's dumbest move in eight years) dismantled America's new energy policy again.
It's rebuilt, albeit with private dollars. More research breakthroughs in alternative energy are happening in the past few years than even in the seventies. Some analysts now believe that 50% of the world's energy could be alternatives before 2050, although if China continues its use of coal, this is a pipe dream to me. But it shows that progress will be made.

What makes you think we aren't?

Because you're not. You haven't even ratified Kyoto, yet alone started to implement it. And environmental statistics, you are getting worse! USA produces 25% of all global greenhouse gas emissions. You need to take your environmental world role seriously, at present you do not.

To the people on here that have said public transport is not convenien; no, of course it is not as convenient as driving yourself from door to door. But, it's a price sometimes you have to pay.

Also, I remember being in America, and people drove the most ridiculously short journeys that they could have walked and yet spent hours a week in the gym - which seemed a little ironic. You have a very strong "car" culture, if I can put it this way, which you need to change. Gradually rising the price of petrol/gas would be a way to gradually adjust from this culture. Your authorities could use the extra tax revenues to improve public transport. Enivronmentally, that would make sense.

When these things start to happen, then I will see that you are taking the environmental issues seriously and are starting to implement the necessary reforms to safeguard the future of the environment that we all share.

Because you're not. You haven't even ratified Kyoto, yet alone started to implement it. And environmental statistics, you are getting worse! USA produces 25% of all global greenhouse gas emissions. You need to take your environmental world role seriously, at present you do not.

To the people on here that have said public transport is not convenien; no, of course it is not as convenient as driving yourself from door to door. But, it's a price sometimes you have to pay.

Also, I remember being in America, and people drove the most ridiculously short journeys that they could have walked and yet spent hours a week in the gym - which seemed a little ironic. You have a very strong "car" culture, if I can put it this way, which you need to change. Gradually rising the price of petrol/gas would be a way to gradually adjust from this culture. Your authorities could use the extra tax revenues to improve public transport. Enivronmentally, that would make sense.

When these things start to happen, then I will see that you are taking the environmental issues seriously and are starting to implement the necessary reforms to safeguard the future of the environment that we all share.
That's extremely harsh, if you ask me. Let's just develope our cars to be more fuel efficient, or better yet, I bet fuel cell cars will start appearing by 2010. However, you are asking for something unrealistic. The environment is nice, but it can't be an alter to sacrifice our livelihoods.
Besides, have you considered that the US is much more spread out than anywhere in Europe and Japan? Our cities are not close to eachother. I'm afraid that any environmentalist will have to take that into account.

On top of that, however, I wouldn't want to rush things. A natural gas economy is inevitable, and should replace the oil economy over the course of the next few decades. It'll be a bridge to possibly hydrogen, maybe even a fusion economy. In any case, Borgoa, I wouldn't rush it. I'd rather have my life spared if it meant destroying the rainforests.

That's extremely harsh, if you ask me. Let's just develope our cars to be more fuel efficient, or better yet, I bet fuel cell cars will start appearing by 2010. However, you are asking for something unrealistic. The environment is nice, but it can't be an alter to sacrifice our livelihoods.
Besides, have you considered that the US is much more spread out than anywhere in Europe and Japan? Our cities are not close to eachother. I'm afraid that any environmentalist will have to take that into account.

This is what is so frustrating, it can be done-it is realistic, the USA is just not socially responsible enough to do it - rating the environment less important than it's economy.
We have taxed our fuel at a rate to ensure that we don't have a car culture to the extent you do.
No one has asked anybody to sacrifice their entire economy. We would not do that, anymore than you would.
Europe is as spread out as the USA, it's not that much smaller. We have invested in better public transport (eg Thalys, ICE, TGV, AVE etc) to ensure that the car is not the only option in getting about.

This is what is so frustrating, it can be done-it is realistic, the USA is just not socially responsible enough to do it - rating the environment less important than it's economy.
We have taxed our fuel at a rate to ensure that we don't have a car culture to the extent you do.
No one has asked anybody to sacrifice their entire economy. We would not do that, anymore than you would.
Europe is as spread out as the USA, it's not that much smaller. We have invested in better public transport (eg Thalys, ICE, TGV, AVE etc) to ensure that the car is not the only option in getting about.
I'm sure we'd have a bullet train if we got rid of Amtrak. But enough about that.
Why can't you be satisfied with the fact that cars can be built to run cleaner?

This is what is so frustrating, it can be done-it is realistic, the USA is just not socially responsible enough to do it - rating the environment less important than it's economy.
The economy is more important than the environment. It's more socially responsible to actively work for renewable energy than it is to put people out of work without actually doing anything.

The economy is more important than the environment. It's more socially responsible to actively work for renewable energy than it is to put people out of work without actually doing anything.
It's what I think. After all, as the Great Blackout showed (and today is it's first anniversary), restoring the environment is easy. The University of Maryland detected a sudden improvement in air quality that night, as no coal plants were burning. Just think of what we can do if we improved them. After all, most of them run off techniques perfected in the thirties, even though technology has improved.

Gas prices suck.

I'm sure we'd have a bullet train if we got rid of Amtrak. But enough about that.
Why can't you be satisfied with the fact that cars can be built to run cleaner?

Because in reality you are not doing it anywhere near fast enough.
The USA simply doesn't do its bit for the environment. Your emissions keep going up. Also, you don't recycle nearler as much as here. It seems to be almost cultural, Europeans seem to value a clean environment more than the American respondents who value convenience and disposability regardless of any damage done to the world's (not just America's) environment. Furthermore more Europeans seem to recognise that cleaning up the environment is costly, but essential. It makes Americans appear very selfish and arragant when they suggest that they will refuse to implement environmental measures.

Because in reality you are not doing it anywhere near fast enough.
The USA simply doesn't do its bit for the environment. Your emissions keep going up. Also, you don't recycle nearler as much as here. It seems to be almost cultural, Europeans seem to value a clean environment more than the American respondents who value convenience and disposability regardless of any damage done to the world's (not just America's) environment. Furthermore more Europeans seem to recognise that cleaning up the environment is costly, but essential. It makes Americans appear very selfish and arragant when they suggest that they will refuse to implement environmental measures.
We move at our own pace when it comes to the environment. I feel that human livelihood is more important to maintain than the whales, or the rainforests. Call me selfish, but we operate differently with the environment. We strike balances between it and our economy, not sacrificing one for the other. In reality, Scandanavia in particular seems eager to place the environment first. Then again, I can't blame you guys, as you're economies are dependent mostly off natural resources. In Scandanavia, an industrial economy exists, but without the industry because of your mineral wealth. Other places on the planet can't do that.

Hey kids. This article shows that the fun with gas prices just can't last.
http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Business/ap20040815_1382.html
Even deisel fuel could see a spike.

bump

http://money.cnn.com/2004/08/15/news/economy/gas_lundberg/?cnn=yes
You know, I just had a thought. As you know, Pres. Hugo Chaves of Venezuela is being recalled. I wonder what'd happen if he wins? If he looses?
Personally, I feel it won't matter. No matter what happens, some in Venezuela will be disatisfied, and there will be widespread violence. They may even cause civil war, and that will surely threaten the oil industry. After all, Chavez's opposition call this referendum "the last option through democracy". They have other plans should he win.

This has already made it to a gas pump near us:

http://www.markfiore.com/animation/quit.html

This has already made it to a gas pump near us:

http://www.markfiore.com/animation/quit.html
LOL! Yes, it's true about all of that. That's why I think that our best way out of this mess is continued research of alternatives. I favor hydrogen more and more. In fact, I've just read that a fleet of 280 million (about the size of the US fleet) has the electric production capacity of 17 times more power than currently production capacity of the US. Of course, lots of bugs still exist, but I think tremendous progress has been made.

bumpppppppppppppppppppppppppppp

I like the idea of sonofusion.