NationStates Jolt Archive

Is there someone in the world who can explain to me why Christians keep opposing to gay marriage, but keep following Christian churches where child abuse is more common than anywhere else?

Today, a school for priest in Austria has been closed by the Vaticans authority as there had been found 40000 child porn pictures.
Last year in the United States only, there were several thousands of cases of child abuse by priests. Most cases were arranged by the higher authorities in the Church by paying large amounts of money to the victims instead of letting the priests be convicted.

Who could claim to follow the Bible, Jesus and be a member of such criminal organisations at the same time? And if there is a God, why does he tolerate such criminals to be His spokesmen?

I only pick one thing now, but there is evidence to that the Vatican banks are involved in money laundring for the Italian maffia and I don't even mention all historical crimes commited in the name of Christianity.

If Christianity really is about love, forgiveness and doing good, then I don't see how any Christian can follow such criminal organisations while denying other people to be happy, just because of some pathetic rules supposedly said by prophets more than 2000 years ago. Even more, when they would follow these rules strictly, organisations like the Vatican or the Anglican church should be forbidden. However in Belgian we have a saying about two measures and two weights...

I know there have been a lot of topics about Christianity and gay marriage, but I'd really like to hear how Christians can justify there belief AND be a member of a church.

The catholic church has been taken over by the false prophet!

1 Timothy 4:1 The Spirit says clearly that some people will abandon the faith in later times: they will obey lying spirits and follow the teachings of demons. Such teachings are spread by deceitful liars, whose consciences are dead, as if burnt with a hot iron.

I know. There seems to be more pædophilia in the Catholic church than in all the hentai in the world combined.

Is there someone in the world who can explain to me why Christians keep opposing to gay marriage, but keep following Christian churches where child abuse is more common than anywhere else?

Kinda makes you wonder what "rod" they're talking about in Proverbs 22:15 and Proverbs 23:13 ... *shudder*

The catholic church has been taken over by the false prophet!

1 Timothy 4:1 The Spirit says clearly that some people will abandon the faith in later times: they will obey lying spirits and follow the teachings of demons. Such teachings are spread by deceitful liars, whose consciences are dead, as if burnt with a hot iron.
Bush is the #1 false prophet. The U$ has bene taken over by the False Prophet!!! We must eradicate this foul nation from the planet before their bigotry can spread over the world.. aaaargh heeelp I'm being infected by Bush and americans aaaahhhh nooo, my pure christian soul!!!

Bush is the #1 false prophet. The U$ has bene taken over by the False Prophet!!! We must eradicate this foul nation from the planet before their bigotry can spread over the world.. aaaargh heeelp I'm being infected by Bush and americans aaaahhhh nooo, my pure christian soul!!!

What I think is interesting about Bush and Christianity is that he's often been videotaped and photographed in church for PR purposes. If he was so devout, wouldn't he think of having someone in his church recording him while he prays to be sacrilege? Anyways, that's a bit of a tangent from the original topic. I think that gay people should be allowed to marry, because at least to them it would be something meaningful. Whereas within our "Christian" nation, divorce rates are greater than 50%. That's my two pennies

Whereas within our "Christian" nation, divorce rates are greater than 50%. That's my two pennies

interesting tidbit: atheists have a much lower divorce rate than christians.

meh?

I'm a Christian, and I don't abuse children, and I support gay marriage (indeed, my church regularly performs same-sex marriages). How about we don't take what one group of Christians (like the catholic church) does and apply that to all Christians?

Careful everyone, it's a Catholic. (Well, raised Catholic, anyway.)
Here's why the church is against same-sex marriage: Sex outside of marriage, and/or which does not allow for the possibility of reproduction, is immoral. The decision to begin a new life is god's, or something silly like that.. (I'll check with a priest later.) Anyway, if two members of the same gender have sex, there is no way a pregnancy is going to result, and same sex marriages just put a rubber stamp of approval on the evils of sodomy, and whatever two women do in bed(?). Is it right? Is it wrong? It's FAITH!!! YOU NEED JESUS!!! JESUS SAVES!!!! Throw away needless logic and PRAISE JESUS!!! PRAAIIIISE JESUS!

By the way. Our morale is okay. We'll get by in general, although some of us might not feel too well about the gay marriage thing. Oh, did you mean morals? Oops.

I'm a Christian, and I don't abuse children, and I support gay marriage (indeed, my church regularly performs same-sex marriages). How about we don't take what one group of Christians (like the catholic church) does and apply that to all Christians?

Same reason we'll take the actions of a few Muslims and say that all Muslims believe the same thing and want to fly planes into our buildings because they are jealous of our freedom.

It's called: Extremist Stupidity. Very dangerous.

By the way. Our morale is okay. We'll get by in general, although some of us might not feel too well about the gay marriage thing. Oh, did you mean morals? Oops.

Oops indeed ;)
English is not my native language, so please be gentle :)

Answering someone else: I don't mean to generalize, I just wonder why people keep following an institution which has tried to cover up cases of child abuse and why those people keep talking about morals and a greater good when it fits their ideas. I know there are good Catholics too, I know a few myself :)

ok...pretend you're a devout catholic, and you have sexual preferences that are considered wrong by your religion...what better place to run than the church? specifically - the priesthood! you swear yourself to celibacy, and instead of dealing with the issue you hurt youself so badly you end up a pedophile. I think alot of gay catholics end up in the clergy, and instead of a healthy ADULT relationship, they get so twisted by the gross dogma against them that they end up commiting a REAL sin, pedophilia. that's just a theory, but it seems to make sense to me.

Careful everyone, it's a Catholic. (Well, raised Catholic, anyway.)
Here's why the church is against same-sex marriage: Sex outside of marriage, and/or which does not allow for the possibility of reproduction, is immoral. The decision to begin a new life is god's, or something silly like that.. (I'll check with a priest later.) Anyway, if two members of the same gender have sex, there is no way a pregnancy is going to result, and same sex marriages just put a rubber stamp of approval on the evils of sodomy, and whatever two women do in bed(?). Is it right? Is it wrong? It's FAITH!!! YOU NEED JESUS!!! JESUS SAVES!!!! Throw away needless logic and PRAISE JESUS!!! PRAAIIIISE JESUS!

not that the story of sodom and gramorrah actually has any gay sex in it. They tried to rape strangers, and the godly response of Lot (a good man, according to later biblical authors), is to give his two virgin daughters to the horny mob for THEM to be raped. the christian alternative to homosexuality, give gay men your children to be abused! "sodomy" is a misnomer, and the biblical views on the subject are entirely a retaliation written after the babylonian captivity that list a great many babylonian customs (including homosexuality), as evil. Ever wonder why wearing clothing of mixed fabrics is listed as a sin in the old testament? the babylonians did it, that's why. Traditionally the first 5 books were said to be written by moses...but they actually describe his death, so I have trouble beleiving that. Hebrew ritual law, in part if not in whole, is a childish retaliation against babylonian culture and a fraud that had nothing to do with god at all.

We aren't all Catholic. Yeash, Protestants these days, we never get respect.

-R. S. of UC

We aren't all Catholic. Yeash, Protestants these days, we never get respect.

-R. S. of UC
And not all Catholics are priests. Priests represent an extremely minute portion of the Christian religion.

meh?

I'm a Christian, and I don't abuse children, and I support gay marriage (indeed, my church regularly performs same-sex marriages). How about we don't take what one group of Christians (like the catholic church) does and apply that to all Christians?

I'd be much more willing to do just that, if more Christians were willing to distinguish themselves from the hating Christians. As long as moderate/liberal Christians remain (relatively) quiet, they let the conservative Christian sects speak for the whole religion, and thus are included in any characterization of the group as a whole.

I know. There seems to be more pædophilia in the Catholic church than in all the hentai in the world combined.


That's a load of crap. I'm not catholic by any means - but the % of child molesters in the catholic church is less than the % of child molesters in other [jobs]....

That's a load of crap. I'm not catholic by any means - but the % of child molesters in the catholic church is less than the % of child molesters in other [jobs]....

You got a source to back that up? Failing evidence to the contrary, it's logical to expect the % of child molesters in the Catholic Church to be exactly the same as any other comparable group.

When it comes to Gay marriage and the reason for the strong christian opposition, it clearly states in the bible that gay relations are immoral. To back this up, one can see that in Leviticus 18:22 it states, "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.", this is repeated in Leviticus 20:13 where it states, "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

Now before you start thinking that I'm for going around killing all the gay's in the world, hear out the rest of my argument.

In Romans 1:27-32, it states,
"In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed, and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."

Now with that said, we can't only focus on the gay's or those who do immoral acts, because of the things that "deserve death", every human being has committed some act against God. Therefore, we all should be deserving of death.

Furthermore, not meaning to preach, there is only one way to be sanctified and clensed so that we might pass judgement and not be condemmed to eternal damnation. This way, is Jesus Christ.

In Acts 3:19, it tells us to "Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord."

By the way, Repentance isn't just saying sorry. Repentance is truly regretting your past actions and turning from them. Saying sorry and going straight back to what you were doing isnt repentance.

Although I also oppose gay marriage, I feel bad that so many claimed "Christians" are bashing them and claiming they are inferior and doomed to eternal damnation. What's worse about this, is that not only are they in stark contrast to what the bible teaches of acceptance, but they are also putting themselves into the category mentioned above of people deserving death.

Also, how can one claim to follow christ as well as to embrace the world. If you serve Christ, but approve of things that he himself dissapproved of, how can you claim to belong to Christ?

Now that im done with the gay marriage bit, I move on to the much shorter response to the pediphilia bit.

It is true that there are those Catholic priests that have committed immoral acts, and the bible speaks to this. In 1 Corinthians 1:1-2 it speaks of a member of the church who was guilty of committing a sexually immoral act. In this case it was incest, but pediphilia being sexually immoral could be tied into this. The passage states, "It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this?"

As was stated in a previous post, much is the same today as in the time depicted here: There was sexual immorality as is in the church today, and the churh was proud of it instead of punishing the perpitrator, as happens today. I haven't looked into how the cases were handeled, but I am assuming that a previous post that claimed that a higher authority payed for the damages, rather than dealing with the one who committed the act. This could be viewed as them being too proud to punish one of their own, thus paying the way out, instead of casting the guilty out of the church fellowship.

Having given a referance for what should be done to the sexually immoral, we cannot forget that they can still be saved through repentance.

One more note, in the bible it states in Matthew 18:6 that "... if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea." The little ones in this verse is a referance to the children that have accepted Christ.

Once again, I must point out, that even though it would have been better for them to have died than to have caused a child to sin, they can still be saved if they repent and turn from their ways.

Seeing as its around 1:05 AM where I am, I think I will call it a night.

Hope I've given some insight into your question. :)

I find it interesting people wish to base a modern society selectively from ancient tribal purity laws as well as persistently disregarding the verses preceding Romans 1:27.

In Acts 3:19, it tells us to "Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord."

By the way, Repentance isn't just saying sorry. Repentance is truly regretting your past actions and turning from them. Saying sorry and going straight back to what you were doing isnt repentance.

Although I also oppose gay marriage, I feel bad that so many claimed "Christians" are bashing them and claiming they are inferior and doomed to eternal damnation. What's worse about this, is that not only are they in stark contrast to what the bible teaches of acceptance, but they are also putting themselves into the category mentioned above of people deserving death.


I find it weird that Christians say that mass murderers or even people like Hitler can go to heaven when they have repentance for what they have done before their death and that people who have done nothing wrong against anyone (gays), but just have chosen a little different way of life go to hell. :confused:

I love the way christians are very selective about using quotes from the bible. Sure , they can find a few little quotes to bash gays with , but isn't this the same book that tells them it's ok to own slaves , to take people who work on the sabbath and have them stoned to death (think of that the next time you want an ambulance on a Sunday - can you come and save my life before we stone you to death please) , not to wear mixed fibres , not to eat animals that crawl on the bottom of the sea bed ... the list goes on and on. And if you were to read St. John's gospel closely , there are some mysterious references to "the disciple that Jesus loves" who does not get a name check , but we ALL know that all his disciples were men. If you don't believe me , go read it all again. The fact that Paul doesn't like gays doesn't cut any ice with me - he never even met Jesus as far as my biblical knowledge goes. Christians should go talk to some Quakers and see what they have to say on the subject rather than listen to what comes out of the Vatican.

The reason I chose note to include the previous verses to 27 (I'm thinking your refering to 24-26) is because if I were to include them I would also have to include several prior verses to those to avoid confusion. If you start reading from Romans 1:18 you will understand the reason for the actions in verses 24 through 26.

In mony cases, mass murderers and such do not repent before they die, therefore they would not go to Heaven. Also if you go back to high school when you study WWII you learn that Hitler committed suicide, and I'm assuming he didn't repent of his actions before hand. I mean why would he repent to the God of the people he was persecuting?

I love my dad, does that mean I have some immoral relation with him? Not at all. There are many kinds of love, and to say that because Jesus loved his disciples he committed immoral acts is unjustified. Think about it this way, If your best friend landed in a car crash and died, you would most likely grieve and feel a sense of great loss. Am I right. Most people love their best friends, they aren't in love with them, but they do love them, much as a sister or brother love each other.

Also, the selective quoting was to make a point. If you wish to argue the fact that we should die for doing work on Sunday's as you put it, you should read over the first few books of the new testament. If you look at Matthew 12:1-14 you see what Jesus has to say about work on the Sabbath. Also, if you look at 1 Timothy 4:4-5, you see that it states, "For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer."

Final note, I was going to post this last time but forgot, all references I make come from the NIV bible.