NationStates Jolt Archive

This may surprise you guys coming from a liberal, but I am against affirmitive action. If I recall correctly, which is unlikely, there is some college out there that bases its admissions on a points system. Certain things get you points, and if you have enough points, you get in. Having a perfect SAT score gets you 12 points, being black gets you 20. That's not fair.

Ooooh, haven't seen one of these in a while.

In the 80's they banned the use of racial quotas and things like that.

This may surprise you guys coming from a liberal, but I am against affirmitive action. If I recall correctly, which is unlikely, there is some college out there that bases its admissions on a points system. Certain things get you points, and if you have enough points, you get in. Having a perfect SAT score gets you 12 points, being black gets you 20. That's not fair.

I could be wrong, but someone sued about this system and it was struck down as unfair. The points system for race, that is. It *can,* however, still be looked at as a factor when doing admissions to schools on the basis of promoting diversity.

Personally, I think that the only issues that should initially count in admissions are qualifications (grades, SAT score, essay, extracurricular activities, etc.). Then, if there is a tie for the last few spots, whoever increases diversity (defined by socio-economic status, past life experience, etc.) should win the tie. This will help to ensure that people with many different viewpoints are present at the school Race itself, however, should not be a factor.

woot, welcome to the dark-side pongoar

if the university your talking about is the one in miami (which I think it is) you can also get 1 point for the best essay ever writen, but 20 for being black

woot, welcome to the dark-side pongoar
Do I get a red lightsaber?

it start off as pink and then grow redder as you slide more tword the right

(I always though the red v. blue should be the other way around because we're the blue-blooded rich white party and they're commies)

Actually, someone posted a really good point about the Affirmative Action issue. It needs to be overhauled and means based rather than race based. There are poor white kids who have the intellect to go to college and prosper, but lack the funds and they should be just as elligible for Affirmative Action programs. They also bring their own type of diversity of view to the college mix.

Actually, someone posted a really good point about the Affirmative Action issue. It needs to be overhauled and means based rather than race based. There are poor white kids who have the intellect to go to college and prosper, but lack the funds and they should be just as elligible for Affirmative Action programs. They also bring their own type of diversity of view to the college mix.


Funny thing, though: People say this a lot. They say, "Well, the real problem with being black and getting into school is that being black often means being poor... and this crazy affirmative action thing just ends up rewarding rich black kids who aren't too bright, while all these bright, poor, white kids can't get in."

Here's the funny part: For some reason, if you look at the statistics to see whether being poor (white or black) or being black hurts more, it's being black. By a landslide. I honestly wish I could give you the exact figures and sources... However, the book that cites them is an hour and a half away in what will soon be my new apartment.

I can, however, give you the name of the book: There's No Such Thing as Free Speech... and It's a Good Thing, Too, by Stanley Fish. Good book, but if you want the bits on Affirmative Action, just the first several chapters should do it.

Affirmative action is crap. Whites are criticized for not treating blacks as equals, and then they demand special treatment? Where's the fairness and equality there?

This may surprise you guys coming from a liberal, but I am against affirmitive action. If I recall correctly, which is unlikely, there is some college out there that bases its admissions on a points system. Certain things get you points, and if you have enough points, you get in. Having a perfect SAT score gets you 12 points, being black gets you 20. That's not fair. :headbang: That is not affirmative action. I am constantly frustrated by those who denounce affirmative action and don't even know what it really is! Most believe erronously that it states that minorities get preference over whites, not true. The true definition is that if an ethnic group is underrepresented in proportion to it's share of the general population preference should be given to such ethnic groups in case where applicants are equal in other qualifications. That's it!

:headbang: That is not affirmative action. I am constantly frustrated by those who denounce affirmative action and don't even know what it really is! Most believe erronously that it states that minorities get preference over whites, not true. The true definition is that if an ethnic group is underrepresented in proportion to it's share of the general population preference should be given to such ethnic groups in case where applicants are equal in other qualifications. That's it!


since there were so few black applicants blacks were given laxer standards to meet up to to ensure a racial mix on campus

blacks were given preference over whites

that is affirmitive action

This may surprise you guys coming from a liberal, but I am against affirmitive action.

Lemme guess .... you're White.

Lemme guess .... you're White.

should it matter?

Affirmative Action is just like welfare, giving a boost to those unfit to make it on their own. Anybody who needs a boost to make it often isn't worth the effort it takes.

since there were so few black applicants blacks were given laxer standards to meet up to to ensure a racial mix on campus

blacks were given preference over whites

that is affirmitive action :rolleyes: Read the definition again bright boy. That is not affirmitive action. It is just what you stated it is, an attempt to manipulate the applicants to achieve a racial mix on campus. Such attempts by organizations to appear more PC are erronously refered to as AA, they are not.

Affirmative action is crap. Whites are criticized for not treating blacks as equals, and then they demand special treatment? Where's the fairness and equality there?

well you see, up until 40 years ago (when today's kid's parents were kids) we had a legal system of discrimination that locked out certain people from access to education and economic advancement, etc that had been in place for a really long time. this turned certain groups into an underclass. merely removing the legal barriers from them does not create equal opportunity. otherwise we would see people at every level and aspect of society represented in proportion to their representation in the whole population - which we most resoundingly do not.

so we as a society have a few options: either attempt to create equality of opportunity or blatantly continue to doom some people to stay in a racially based economic underclass. anyone who wants to do away with 'special treatment' before we have reached a society of equal opportunity is choosing the second. at least if they don't also call for a widespread social revolution in order to create a free and equal society immediately.

The problem with the concept of 'affirmative action' is the same as the problem with Bush's current fave 'no child left behind'.

Sure - education should be available to all. All should have the same access, and it should not be decided by how much money you have, or if you fit into the right social segment.

But - not everyone is going to be able to make the same use of the same education. It may sound elitist, but it's also true. Some people will never be any good at math.... even if they study every hour of every day, calculus will just never 'click' for them. Others will never be artists - the only brushes they will ever productively wield will be on teeth or hair.

What the education system needs is an overhaul. A redistribution of the effort, and a channeling of funds to where they would be productive. Introduce a pattern of testing that identifies Aptitude for a subject, and promotes the student in that direction. Introduce a system of streaming classes so that Effort is rewarded - and the student who really wants to work at the subject can be a college graduate at 17. Even more important - improve public access to the internet... which I believe is currently the greatest tool there is for learning... and gear education towards a self-paced and mainly self-taught system. There is no good reason why public access education shouldn't be practically free - maybe make them pay for the test, which will have to be graded, and any coursework 'examination.

3 years of your life surfing the web in your spare time, $100 for an examination, and another $300 for module assessments = a graduate. (And one who knows how to find information for him/her self - and how to work to deadlines they have set for themselves)

Got to beat $60,000, a 'required' book list, awkward scheduling and arbitrary teaching standards. (And something like a 33% drop-out rate?)

well you see, up until 40 years ago (when today's kid's parents were kids) we had a legal system of discrimination that locked out certain people from access to education and economic advancement, etc that had been in place for a really long time. this turned certain groups into an underclass. merely removing the legal barriers from them does not create equal opportunity. otherwise we would see people at every level and aspect of society represented in proportion to their representation in the whole population - which we most resoundingly do not.

so we as a society have a few options: either attempt to create equality of opportunity or blatantly continue to doom some people to stay in a racially based economic underclass. anyone who wants to do away with 'special treatment' before we have reached a society of equal opportunity is choosing the second. at least if they don't also call for a widespread social revolution in order to create a free and equal society immediately.


Blacks and Mestizos are overrepresented in the armed forces, 49% of the army is non-white while only about 35% of the nation is non-white. Does this bother you?

Jews are overrepresented in CEOs, 45% of CEOs are jewish, but only 1% of the nation is jew.

So if blacks would rather join the army instead of being doctors or lawyers. We don't need feel-good quotas that say "Blacks are 13% of the nation and must 13% of all jobs."

Let people do what they want!

IAM FOR AFFIRMATIVE ACTION, BUT!

only those that have truly suffered institutional discrimination should benefit from affirmative action.....the only people that stands with is american indians and african americans....that's it.....that's all.....don;t have time but will expound on this theory later, with actual examples and stats to back it up.....these are groups that truly suffered institutional discrimination....think about it for a second.....hispanics are a recent immigration wave, all groups were "underrepresented"in american history during that phase, women are 61% of present college degrees awarded as of 2002, asians outperform everybody......The problem with AA as it stands now is it doesn;t do its' designed job, it is used by leftist extremists and bigots as an anti-white male bludgeon instead of what is was meant for.....the spirit of the law is a good one, actually....but the left has gone and f$#$ed it up, like they do everything...

cite your source for who is over/underrepresented in the military. white males are overrepresented in the military vs. population, friend, males overall, of course, by far.......i see your point, but you are flat wrong on minority representation in the military.

cite your source for who is over/underrepresented in the military. white males are overrepresented in the military vs. population, friend, males overall, of course, by far.......i see your point, but you are flat wrong on minority representation in the military.


Check the official government data. I searched for it long and hard, and you can search for it for a while, or if I come across the information again, I'll gladly post it.

Lemme guess .... you're White.
How did you know?
GET OUT OF MY HEAD!!!! GET OUT OF MY HEAD!!!!

well you see, up until 40 years ago (when today's kid's parents were kids) we had a legal system of discrimination that locked out certain people from access to education and economic advancement, etc that had been in place for a really long time. this turned certain groups into an underclass. merely removing the legal barriers from them does not create equal opportunity. otherwise we would see people at every level and aspect of society represented in proportion to their representation in the whole population - which we most resoundingly do not.

so we as a society have a few options: either attempt to create equality of opportunity or blatantly continue to doom some people to stay in a racially based economic underclass. anyone who wants to do away with 'special treatment' before we have reached a society of equal opportunity is choosing the second. at least if they don't also call for a widespread social revolution in order to create a free and equal society immediately.

See, I realize that yeah, it was hard, it was bad, it wasn't fair. But, it's fair now! Now, they have every opportunity to get an education. If not, it's in the lower education, not higher education. Make it easier for them to get into elementary school and such.
Did you know that a white male has the lowest chance of getting scholarships of all combinations of race and gender? White males also have the highest insurance rates. Did I mentiont that a black person can get away with calling a white kid a cracker in front of a teacher, but if a white person calls the black the "N" word, in private, he can get suspended?

See, I realize that yeah, it was hard, it was bad, it wasn't fair. But, it's fair now! Now, they have every opportunity to get an education. If not, it's in the lower education, not higher education. Make it easier for them to get into elementary school and such.
Did you know that a white male has the lowest chance of getting scholarships of all combinations of race and gender? White males also have the highest insurance rates. Did I mentiont that a black person can get away with calling a white kid a cracker in front of a teacher, but if a white person calls the black the "N" word, in private, he can get suspended?White males may have the lowest chances of getting a scholarship but that's because they still are the largest segmant of college students and most of those who give out scholarships try to target the minorities. White males have the highest insurance rates because they have the highest rates of heart disease etc. Both these examples have no bearing on AA anyways. Private scholarships are not subject to AA, just like private schools are not (Don't you guys realize it only applies to public institutions or those private ones that recieve gov't funds). And insurance adjusters base their rates on risk factors, the likelyhood that they'll have to pay out, not on race or ethnicity. Your last example is a purely subjective point of view, where I live both names are not tolerated and probably are not in most places.

See, I realize that yeah, it was hard, it was bad, it wasn't fair. But, it's fair now!

no. it isn't. if things were fair then we would expect the distribution of people from various socially designated races to be roughly the same in every sector of society, and roughly the same as the overall 'racial' makeup of that society as a whole. as long as that isn't the case then we still have some other factor at work in the society that needs to be countered. the very fact that certain historical underclasses are still underrepresented in the higher strata of society and vastly overrepresented in the lower ones proves the existence of structural racism that has yet to be fully dealt with. saying that 'everything is fair now' is at best a sick joke and at worst a smokescreen for overt racism.

Funny thing, though: People say this a lot. They say, "Well, the real problem with being black and getting into school is that being black often means being poor... and this crazy affirmative action thing just ends up rewarding rich black kids who aren't too bright, while all these bright, poor, white kids can't get in."

Here's the funny part: For some reason, if you look at the statistics to see whether being poor (white or black) or being black hurts more, it's being black. By a landslide. I honestly wish I could give you the exact figures and sources... However, the book that cites them is an hour and a half away in what will soon be my new apartment.

I can, however, give you the name of the book: There's No Such Thing as Free Speech... and It's a Good Thing, Too, by Stanley Fish. Good book, but if you want the bits on Affirmative Action, just the first several chapters should do it.
That's because the average minority is poorer than the average white person in this country. However, should rich black kids really get AA applied to them? Show me where they were disenfranchised. And what about poor white kids who can't afford to move to a better neighborhood with a better school? Don't they need a little help?

Actually, someone posted a really good point about the Affirmative Action issue. It needs to be overhauled and means based rather than race based. There are poor white kids who have the intellect to go to college and prosper, but lack the funds and they should be just as elligible for Affirmative Action programs. They also bring their own type of diversity of view to the college mix.
That was me. Someone want to find that thread and bump it up so this convo can spill back over into there?

no. it isn't. if things were fair then we would expect the distribution of people from various socially designated races to be roughly the same in every sector of society, and roughly the same as the overall 'racial' makeup of that society as a whole. as long as that isn't the case then we still have some other factor at work in the society that needs to be countered. the very fact that certain historical underclasses are still underrepresented in the higher strata of society and vastly overrepresented in the lower ones proves the existence of structural racism that has yet to be fully dealt with. saying that 'everything is fair now' is at best a sick joke and at worst a smokescreen for overt racism.

Why should every sector of society represent the population? Some cultures are drawn to certain sectors. Some cultures might promote education more while others focus on physical skills. Some cultures have inherent physical characteristics too. Do you think it would be natural for the NBA to have a proportional mix of people to the population?

I'm a white male, I'll admit it. I'm very sorry that minorities are generally poorer than my race, however is it my fault? Overtime it will fix itself, afterall, these institutions wouldn't be competitive if they kept members of minorities who are qualified out. Should I not get a job just because I am white? Just because members of my race oppressed members of another 50 years ago? Does this honestly make sense to you? Affirmative Action was put into place because people were keeping minorities out.

Things have changed now. Do you know what happens when you force people who aren't as qualified into positions that they shouldn't be in? They fail. Not because they are minorities, but because those that are allowed in only because of their race and therefore they didn't have the best qualifications to begin with, otherwise there would be no need to be forced in. If I was a minority, I would rather be judged by my merit, not my skin. Sound familiar?

If you come back saying that AA only stands for when minorities are equal to the overrepresented group. Is it still fair to not get a job because of the color of your skin? You are equal to another prospective employee/student and you are denied why? Because of your race! This has got to stop!

You are equal to another prospective employee/student and you are denied why? Because of your race! This has got to stop!

Very few people disagree here. Or at the very least, they shouldn't.

IAM FOR AFFIRMATIVE ACTION, BUT!

only those that have truly suffered institutional discrimination should benefit from affirmative action.....the only people that stands with is american indians and african americans....that's it.....that's all.....don;t have time but will expound on this theory later, with actual examples and stats to back it up.....these are groups that truly suffered institutional discrimination....think about it for a second.....hispanics are a recent immigration wave, all groups were "underrepresented"in american history during that phase, women are 61% of present college degrees awarded as of 2002, asians outperform everybody......The problem with AA as it stands now is it doesn;t do its' designed job, it is used by leftist extremists and bigots as an anti-white male bludgeon instead of what is was meant for.....the spirit of the law is a good one, actually....but the left has gone and f$#$ed it up, like they do everything...

I can't write a complete...sentence...someone...please...kill me...zzzz

Yeah, let's bring it back to the AA. I'm going to go John Kerry on you and talk about how the middle class gets the short end of the stick. I'm a high school senior looking to attend college in state. Problem:I have no money, no sports talent, and am a honky. I make decent marks and scores on tests... 3.3, 28 ACT, but not decent enough for a brilliance alone scholarship. My parents make over 50k a year, or whatever the cutoff is for financial aid based on income, but, my parents are also in a shitload of debt and the college IRA fund they set up for me when I was younger only lost money. My grades could've probably been higher, had I not had to work. I take AP classes, and out of the group that is regularly in them, I'm the only one who works during school, the rest are rich(or parents are more money smart) and pay for all of their things(car, books, clothes, etc.) Working cut into my sleep and homework time, and eventually, into grades. Work kept me out of clubs too, disabling that option. Anyways, end sob story, start point. The middle-class white student is who gets the least help. Looking for scholarships has made me extremely resenting of minorities and also women to a point, as college comes free and easy to them, while I'm looking at military service or assloads of loans. It's terrific that colleges are PC and intergrated and etc, but, I, and others in my spot are between a rock and a hard place. If affirmative action/PC programs were no longer used, colleges could give more deserving students a chance in college.</RANT>

That's because the average minority is poorer than the average white person in this country. However, should rich black kids really get AA applied to them? Show me where they were disenfranchised. And what about poor white kids who can't afford to move to a better neighborhood with a better school? Don't they need a little help?

Yea! Where's your messiah now?

Yeah, let's bring it back to the AA. I'm going to go John Kerry on you and talk about how the middle class gets the short end of the stick. I'm a high school senior looking to attend college in state. Problem:I have no money, no sports talent, and am a honky. I make decent marks and scores on tests... 3.3, 28 ACT, but not decent enough for a brilliance alone scholarship. My parents make over 50k a year, or whatever the cutoff is for financial aid based on income, but, my parents are also in a shitload of debt and the college IRA fund they set up for me when I was younger only lost money. My grades could've probably been higher, had I not had to work. I take AP classes, and out of the group that is regularly in them, I'm the only one who works during school, the rest are rich(or parents are more money smart) and pay for all of their things(car, books, clothes, etc.) Working cut into my sleep and homework time, and eventually, into grades. Work kept me out of clubs too, disabling that option. Anyways, end sob story, start point. The middle-class white student is who gets the least help. Looking for scholarships has made me extremely resenting of minorities and also women to a point, as college comes free and easy to them, while I'm looking at military service or assloads of loans. It's terrific that colleges are PC and intergrated and etc, but, I, and others in my spot are between a rock and a hard place. If affirmative action/PC programs were no longer used, colleges could give more deserving students a chance in college.</RANT>


What's wrong with the military?

Okay, I agree that a soldier's life may not be for you, and that's perfectly fine. But perhaps you shouldn't look at it as a bad thing. The military teaches you a lot of the things you'll need to know.

I make decent marks and scores on tests... 3.3, 28 ACT, but not decent enough for a brilliance alone scholarship. My parents make over 50k a year, or whatever the cutoff is for financial aid based on income, but, my parents are also in a shitload of debt and the college IRA fund they set up for me when I was younger only lost money. My grades could've probably been higher, had I not had to work. Working cut into my sleep and homework time, and eventually, into grades. The middle-class white student is who gets the least help. Looking for scholarships has made me extremely resenting of minorities and also women to a point, as college comes free and easy to them, while I'm looking at military service or assloads of loans. It's terrific that colleges are PC and intergrated and etc, but, I, and others in my spot are between a rock and a hard place. If affirmative action/PC programs were no longer used, colleges could give more deserving students a chance in college.</RANT>

Boo hoo kid - take out loans like the rest of us.

Boo hoo kid - take out loans like the rest of us.

He may not be able to afford even a loan.

If you come back saying that AA only stands for when minorities are equal to the overrepresented group. Is it still fair to not get a job because of the color of your skin? You are equal to another prospective employee/student and you are denied why? Because of your race! This has got to stop!If both applicants are equal and one is black and one is white, who would you give the job too? The white person? The back? If you choose one are you denying the other a job 'based on the color of his skin'? AA is necessary because too long in equal (and even in unequal) situations the white guy has had the upper hand, the demographics reflect it. It isn't even worded to favor whites. Should a institution have a larger segment of non-whites than the area population then AA would work in favor of the white individual in an equal qualification situation. This rarely happens though because the lingering effect of so many years of blatant racism has not been erased. When it has been then AA will be moot.

There's plenty of scholarships out there, you just have to look.

Maybe if you spent less time whining about the blacks stealing it from you?

If both applicants are equal and one is black and one is white, who would you give the job too? The white person? The back? If you choose one are you denying the other a job 'based on the color of his skin'? AA is necessary because too long in equal (and even in unequal) situations the white guy has had the upper hand, the demographics reflect it. It isn't even worded to favor whites. Should a institution have a larger segment of non-whites than the area population then AA would work in favor of the white individual in an equal qualification situation. This rarely happens though because the lingering effect of so many years of blatant racism has not been erased. When it has been then AA will be moot.




Detroit is 90% black yet the AA benefits go towards helping the blacks. Welfare for the majority eh? :D

If you choose one are you denying the other a job 'based on the color of his skin'?

Only if you're chosing the black (or the white) JUST because he's black or white, which is racist.

AA is necessary because too long in equal (and even in unequal) situations the white guy has had the upper hand, the demographics reflect it.

You don't balance scales by removing one weight from the left side and replacing it on the right side.

Yea! Where's your messiah now?
huh?

Why should every sector of society represent the population? Some cultures are drawn to certain sectors.

ah yes, the famous "black people are culturally drawn to work behind the counter at mcdonald's" argument. which amounts to saying that certain minorities are racially inferior and deserve the low status that they are given.

If you come back saying that AA only stands for when minorities are equal to the overrepresented group. Is it still fair to not get a job because of the color of your skin? You are equal to another prospective employee/student and you are denied why? Because of your race! This has got to stop!

if your qualifications are equal, why should you get the job over another person? you said yourself, your qualifications are equal. to expect that you should get the job over somebody else, all other things being equal, is to claim that your white skin should privilege you over brown skinned people.

if two people's qualifications are equal then we need another criteria to use in order to decide who gets the position. in general, if the criteria we use leads to an underrepresented group continuing to be underrepresented, then our criteria is an instance of institutional racism. when society gets to the point where there aren't institutional underclasses, then we might as well flip a coin to decide between equally qualified people. but until then, you should either put up with some reformist measures like aa or prepare yourself for a massive social revolution to wipe away all of the effects of institutionalized racism and oppression. because there are only three options: revert to explicit institutionalized racism, reformist programs like aa, or social revolution. stopping before we get to equality is the same as turning back the clock.

Detroit is 90% black yet the AA benefits go towards helping the blacks. Welfare for the majority eh? :D

more like 80%. now the question is, what percent of the major corporations there are majority owned by black people? what percentage of upper management in area business are made up of black people? what percentage of the people in local 4 year colleges are black? etc. those numbers will not equal anything near the 80% mark.

Detroit is 90% black yet the AA benefits go towards helping the blacks. Welfare for the majority eh? :DBullshit! Prove it, site me a documented case. You won't because you can't.

ah yes, the famous "black people are culturally drawn to work behind the counter at mcdonald's" argument. which amounts to saying that certain minorities are racially inferior and deserve the low status that they are given.



if your qualifications are equal, why should you get the job over another person? you said yourself, your qualifications are equal. to expect that you should get the job over somebody else, all other things being equal, is to claim that your white skin should privilege you over brown skinned people.

if two people's qualifications are equal then we need another criteria to use in order to decide who gets the position. in general, if the criteria we use leads to an underrepresented group continuing to be underrepresented, then our criteria is an instance of institutional racism. when society gets to the point where there aren't institutional underclasses, then we might as well flip a coin to decide between equally qualified people. but until then, you should either put up with some reformist measures like aa or prepare yourself for a massive social revolution to wipe away all of the effects of institutionalized racism and oppression. because there are only three options: revert to explicit institutionalized racism, reformist programs like aa, or social revolution. stopping before we get to equality is the same as turning back the clock.

Oh come on! the mcdonalds example is stupid! in spain in the south they are mostly filipino. in madrid they are spanish. london they are black. Not inferior, maybe did not have a choice. background and such. so maybe people of a certain background are more likely too....
If your qualifications are equal, then the other person should not get the job over you because of skin tone. better personality, friendlier, thats different

apoligise did not mean it to come out as a negative against you!
at work and stressed. so writing appears more agressive

Did I mentiont that a black person can get away with calling a white kid a cracker in front of a teacher, but if a white person calls the black the "N" word, in private, he can get suspended?
This is because the word "cracker" is funny, and because the "n" word has 400 years of hatred behind it.

Yeah, let's bring it back to the AA. I'm going to go John Kerry on you and talk about how the middle class gets the short end of the stick. I'm a high school senior looking to attend college in state. Problem:I have no money, no sports talent, and am a honky. I make decent marks and scores on tests... 3.3, 28 ACT, but not decent enough for a brilliance alone scholarship. My parents make over 50k a year, or whatever the cutoff is for financial aid based on income, but, my parents are also in a shitload of debt and the college IRA fund they set up for me when I was younger only lost money. My grades could've probably been higher, had I not had to work. I take AP classes, and out of the group that is regularly in them, I'm the only one who works during school, the rest are rich(or parents are more money smart) and pay for all of their things(car, books, clothes, etc.) Working cut into my sleep and homework time, and eventually, into grades. Work kept me out of clubs too, disabling that option. Anyways, end sob story, start point. The middle-class white student is who gets the least help. Looking for scholarships has made me extremely resenting of minorities and also women to a point, as college comes free and easy to them, while I'm looking at military service or assloads of loans. It's terrific that colleges are PC and intergrated and etc, but, I, and others in my spot are between a rock and a hard place. If affirmative action/PC programs were no longer used, colleges could give more deserving students a chance in college.</RANT>

I took the military way...went to college while in the USAF, they paid 75%. Saw the world, 31 countries, and gained more life experience than any classroom can give you. Now I have a good pension, a degree, and more memories than any of my friends or family.

That's because the average minority is poorer than the average white person in this country. However, should rich black kids really get AA applied to them? Show me where they were disenfranchised. And what about poor white kids who can't afford to move to a better neighborhood with a better school? Don't they need a little help?


No, that's the theory I just debunked. See, if the problem just came down to "the average minority is poorer than the average white person," then an AA applied strictly to economic disadvantage, which would help out poor black AND poor whites, should still tend to do what we want for blacks.

The problem is that if you set up one chart that correlates education with economic means, and you set up a completely separate chart that correlates education with race... it turns out that race is a BIGGER factor, statistically, than poverty in excluding people from higher education.

If what you're claiming were true, economics should turn out to be the more important factor.

This is because the word "cracker" is funny, and because the "n" word has 400 years of hatred behind it.



Oh you mean because your double standard allows for the use of one but not the other. Isn't that what you really mean?

Affirmative action is the notion that blacks are stupider than whites and incapable of success on their own merits.

That 40 years of blatant favoritism later, blacks are still not successful suggests that that notion is correct.

Affirmative action is the notion that blacks are stupider than whites and incapable of success on their own merits.

That 40 years of blatant favoritism later, blacks are still not successful suggests that that notion is correct.


I'm sure they can just cook up some "Subconscious racist" theory whereby all whites are racist even if we don't realize it. That'll explain away their failures. I mean haven't we learned over the years, when your group is doing bad, lacking unity, etc, just unite them by giving them a common enemy, it's called scapegoating. And the NAACP, Black Panthers, Nation of Islam, and the Jesse Jackson "Shakedown" crew, are experts at scapegoating.

Detroit City is 82% black. I live in this shithole, and I'm black.

No surprise here - but I'm one of the FEW (like, 6?) black people who doesn't support affirmative action. Everything (positive) I've done in my life was done on the merits of my actions, not the colour of my skin.

"I mean haven't we learned over the years, when your group is doing bad, lacking unity, etc, just unite them by giving them a common enemy, it's called scapegoating."

There's so much truth in that statement, it's not funny. If I hear one more statement about how "(we) weren't meant to succeed in America" or other variations of "blame it on the Man".... I'll go bloody crazy. So many people here wonder why they aren't succeeding, why their city is a glorified piss break between Toronto and Chicago.... it's not the fault of "the man". I've seen it for myself....

Affirmative action is the notion that blacks are stupider than whites and incapable of success on their own merits.

That 40 years of blatant favoritism later, blacks are still not successful suggests that that notion is correct.

Perhaps worse are the exceptions to this generality who can succeed on their own merits yet because of AA are not given the credit they deserve for it.

Perhaps worse are the exceptions to this generality who can succeed on their own merits yet because of AA are not given the credit they deserve for it.



I don't think the government should really help anybody. I'm a white male and I basically want the government to just stay out of must issues because they ususally do more harm than good. If you succeed, great, if you fail, well then you'll have nobody to blame but yourself. I mean some private citizens may make it their goal that you fail... But how often does that happen for reasons that aren't personal and are not racially motivated?

Most people will hold you back because they don't like you, you the person, not you for your race.

I'm sure they can just cook up some "Subconscious racist" theory whereby all whites are racist even if we don't realize it. That'll explain away their failures. I mean haven't we learned over the years, when your group is doing bad, lacking unity, etc, just unite them by giving them a common enemy, it's called scapegoating. And the NAACP, Black Panthers, Nation of Islam, and the Jesse Jackson "Shakedown" crew, are experts at scapegoating.There hasn't been 40 years of blatant favoritism, AA hasn't ben around that long for one thing, it isn't applied nearly as much as whiners like you claim it is and people like you have been subverting the concept since the day it was concieved. You constantly claim the policy to be more than what it is and spread fantastic untrue tales of white people being unfairly passed over. I'm still waiting for you to provide that documented case.

I'm still waiting for you to provide that documented case.
The whole lawsuit against the U of Michigan that went ot the Supreme Court provided a case, didn't it?

There hasn't been 40 years of blatant favoritism, AA hasn't ben around that long for one thing, it isn't applied nearly as much as whiners like you claim it is and people like you have been subverting the concept since the day it was concieved. You constantly claim the policy to be more than what it is and spread fantastic untrue tales of white people being unfairly passed over. I'm still waiting for you to provide that documented case.


Lyndon B Johnson started AA.


In the early-mid 90s, it was reported recently in a major magazine, that white male officers in the army were passed over for promotions to higher rank. This went on for about six years and the army was ordered to stop it. Do a little searching, you'll find what I'm talking about.

I don't think the government should really help anybody. I'm a white male and I basically want the government to just stay out of must issues because they ususally do more harm than good. If you succeed, great, if you fail, well then you'll have nobody to blame but yourself. I mean some private citizens may make it their goal that you fail... But how often does that happen for reasons that aren't personal and are not racially motivated?

So - you never attended a school? I hope you've never been hurt, because you obviously wouldn't go to a hospital. I assume you only drink bottled water, and bathe in a stream? You must only eat the food you hunt yourself (for which you obviously can't have a hunting license), because otherwise you'd have to eat food with all that governmentally ordained labelling on it? In fact, if you rail so terribly against the oppressive regime, you live on your own private island, right?

Obviously - I'm asking rhetorical questions. You are happy accept the parts of society you like, but want to smash the system on all the bits you don't like, right?

Wouldn't a better idea be: the government should help everybody?

Most people will hold you back because they don't like you, you the person, not you for your race.

And many people will dislike you, JUST for your race.

So - you never attended a school? I hope you've never been hurt, because you obviously wouldn't go to a hospital. I assume you only drink bottled water, and bathe in a stream? You must only eat the food you hunt yourself (for which you obviously can't have a hunting license), because otherwise you'd have to eat food with all that governmentally ordained labelling on it? In fact, if you rail so terribly against the oppressive regime, you live on your own private island, right?

Obviously - I'm asking rhetorical questions. You are happy accept the parts of society you like, but want to smash the system on all the bits you don't like, right?

Wouldn't a better idea be: the government should help everybody?


And many people will dislike you, JUST for your race.



Okay, I did go to school. Fine, you got me there.

But I'd take it as a tremendous insult if the government said, "We've established a benefit program for people just like you, and only like you." I'd be thinking, "Are you saying I cannot be a success on my own... Without your help?"

There hasn't been 40 years of blatant favoritism, AA hasn't ben around that long for one thing, it isn't applied nearly as much as whiners like you claim it is and people like you have been subverting the concept since the day it was concieved. You constantly claim the policy to be more than what it is and spread fantastic untrue tales of white people being unfairly passed over. I'm still waiting for you to provide that documented case.

Actually, it has been applied in the past exactly like the people complain about it. The "points" system at some schools is an example. My mother got passed over for a scholarship that was given to another girl from her high school - the girl had less activities, a lower GPA, a lower SAT score, basically everything lower - except she was black. So, yes, it has been applied unfairly (and unconstitutionally).

Now, that said, the problem with AA these days is not that it is applied this way. Most rules that are that blatant have been struck down for more of the "tie-breaker" mentality. The problem is the impression that this gives. AA entrenches racial differences, instead of getting rid of them. If you really want people to be well-represented in every area, the way to do it is not to treat them differently. People (especially those of minority races who have succeeded) should be going back into their community and encouraging kids who are interested in such areas, but don't think they can hack it (because people keep telling them about how the man is keeping them down).

Example: For years (and still), women were underrepresented in engineering. A few women pushed through and were successful in what was basically a man's world. Those women, instead of whining that people should give special consideration to women interested in engineering, have gone out to schools to help dispel the myth that women "just aren't good at math and science." I, myself am an engineer - but I would be highly insulted if anyone ever suggested that I got here because I was a woman and got special treatment.

Blacks and Mestizos are overrepresented in the armed forces, 49% of the army is non-white while only about 35% of the nation is non-white. Does this bother you?

Jews are overrepresented in CEOs, 45% of CEOs are jewish, but only 1% of the nation is jew.

So if blacks would rather join the army instead of being doctors or lawyers. We don't need feel-good quotas that say "Blacks are 13% of the nation and must 13% of all jobs."

Let people do what they want!

unfortunately, this may not be what people want. many people join the army to earn tuition for college-rather than because they want to. And, surprise surprise, the people looking for college tuition are lower on the socio-economic ladder...like a disproportionally high percentage of the black population.

As fo Affirmative Action, I also believe it should be economically-, rather than racially-based. In the end, it might achieve a similar effect, without the highly charged race factor.

unfortunately, this may not be what people want. many people join the army to earn tuition for college-rather than because they want to. And, surprise surprise, the people looking for college tuition are lower on the socio-economic ladder...like a disproportionally high percentage of the black population.

As fo Affirmative Action, I also believe it should be economically-, rather than racially-based. In the end, it might achieve a similar effect, without the highly charged race factor.

Just about everyone I know who has gone into the military to get tuition (and I know quite a few - having grown up in a military town) were middle class - many even upper middle class. They often went into the military because they didn't have the grades to get most other scholarships and didn't want the student loans - but they weren't low on the socio-economic ladder at all.

But it sounds to me as though these people chose to go into the military because the other options didn't appeal to them. I'm talking about the people whose only good option is military service in order to recieve higher education.

I hate affirmative action because why should someone have an advantage over me because their black or red or yellow.

The whole lawsuit against the U of Michigan that went ot the Supreme Court provided a case, didn't it?Since the court ruled in favor of UM I don't see how that qualifies.

Since the court ruled in favor of UM I don't see how that qualifies.
That dosen't make the case any less a situation of a black guy being chosen over a white one, it just means the court thinks that that is still is ok.

Just about everyone I know who has gone into the military to get tuition (and I know quite a few - having grown up in a military town) were middle class - many even upper middle class. They often went into the military because they didn't have the grades to get most other scholarships and didn't want the student loans - but they weren't low on the socio-economic ladder at all.


I fall in that category … 2 things
1 just because my parents have some money doesn’t mean I do!
And 2 Just because my parents have money on paper doesn’t mean they have enough to spend on three boys going to school (fighting for family land … a real fund drain)

But part of financial aid is determined on not only race but sex and family wealth … I do not qualify for any but some very small loans because of being Caucasian, male , non artist, and middle class family

Now I work 72 hrs a week to pay for school and my own way

While I find this fulfilling to “pay my own way” I find it depressing that I have to work so hard to get what I want when I have some friends that come from (not going to blame it on race) but “Different” circumstances and have at least some help.

Whatever time to go back to work

That dosen't make the case any less a situation of a black guy being chosen over a white one, it just means the court thinks that that is still is ok.Uh that was never a given in the case, all it was about was whether or not they could consider race when assessing applications. The court ruled they could.

But it sounds to me as though these people chose to go into the military because the other options didn't appeal to them. I'm talking about the people whose only good option is military service in order to recieve higher education.

Anyone can get student loans. Some just don't feel like doing so - so they look for other sources of funding. Often the military seems like a good one, since you'll get job experience too.

Here's the funny part: For some reason, if you look at the statistics to see whether being poor (white or black) or being black hurts more, it's being black. By a landslide. I honestly wish I could give you the exact figures and sources... However, the book that cites them is an hour and a half away in what will soon be my new apartment.
And what are the statistics in terms of whom the programs you're talking about actually helps? In other words, IMNSHO, these programs merely help a tiny percentage of black people. The black middle and upper classes.