NationStates Jolt Archive

Sure, they are opressed, but their actions make it impossible for me to be sympathetic toward them. When India wanted freedom from the British empire, Ghandi showed them how to do it peacefully. India is a well respected nation now. When Blacks in the USA were horribly opressed Dr. Martin Luther King, Malcom X and others led the fight for equality (in most cases through peaceful means) When the people of Russia had had enough of the czar and wanted some stake in their government, they fought against the military and the oppressors to take their nation. These are respectable actions (although I don't agree with communism).
Palestinians seem to think blowing up a bus full of school children, and shooting a family of four makes them heroes. Meanwhile, the Israelis try to target only the terrorists, and reduce civilian casualties in the Palestinian territioris.

If it were true that Israel only targeted the terrorists, I would agree with your sentiments. However, it's clear that the current government in Israel does not. The fact that it is building a wall - much of it on occupied Palastian terriotory, in controvention of UN resolutions. The USA keeps refusing to back any of these resolutions or to stop funding Israel's government. Israel knows the USA won't do this, so knows it can get away with abusing the Palastian's human rights.
It is this that unfortunately attracts Palastians to terrorism. It's deplorable, but given the situation they are up against, you can see why it happens.

The wall is not a violent act. The Israeli military uses violence only on terrorists.

We care because they are human beings. Yes, some of their actions are despicable, but I believe there is a silent majority that just wants the conflict to end and for the two races to just work it out, so neither side worries about getting blown up by apaches or fanatics.

The wall is not a violent act. The Israeli military uses violence only on terrorists.

The wall is an illegal act, with much of it constructed on occupied (ie non-Israeli) soil. Therefore it provokes violence from the people it oppresses. Israel uses targeted assasinations and airstrikes, often when terrorists leave their houses and enter public spaces (eg streets), therefore Israel often kills innocent Palestinians by-standers. Therefore, this also provokes a violent response from the Palestinians .

The Israeli military uses violence only on terrorists.

Yeah... and that assertion rests on what?

Sure, they are opressed, but their actions make it impossible for me to be sympathetic toward them.

Yes. EVERY Palestinian is a terrorist. And even those that aren't well they're just BOUND to be one eventually.

A hellfire missile hits a car loaded with terrorists. some civilians on the street are injured. A guy gets on a bus with a bomb, and kills a couple dozen kids and working people. Yeah, those two are moraly equivalent.

Because, like you said, nobody realy cares about them. With their acts of terror they make the world care. Look at Sudan. Genocide for over 2 decades. And just now the world starts to notice.

A hellfire missile hits a car loaded with terrorists. some civilians on the street are injured. A guy gets on a bus with a bomb, and kills a couple dozen kids and working people. Yeah, those two are moraly equivalent.

I don't really understand your point?
But, I think that the actions of a state killing civilians is in some ways more repugnant, as a state should be setting an example and not encouraging violent acts of retaliation.
Of course, a terrorist blowing up innocent people on a bus is utterly disgusting. But a government killing innocent people living on territory it is illegally occupying is also disgusting, especially as a government should uphold human rights and international law.

A hellfire missile hits a car loaded with terrorists. some civilians on the street are injured. A guy gets on a bus with a bomb, and kills a couple dozen kids and working people. Yeah, those two are moraly equivalent.
Except that nine times out of ten there were no terrorists in the car and the Israelis just killed many innocent people

Except that nine times out of then there were no terrorists in the car and the Israelis just killed many innocent people
Do you have any proof of that?

It's as bad as saying that Israeli military only kill terrorists and civilian casualties occur only 1% of the time.

No proof in either case.

Except that nine times out of then there were no terrorists in the car and the Israelis just killed many innocent people

My point is that the israelis target the terrorists, and the terrorists target civilians. The terrorists also receive popular support in palestinian communities. BTW, 9 out of 10? I don't have the actual figures in front of me but that sounds WAY off. Care to back that up?

Why should anyone care about the Palestinians?

I'd generally respond that if for no other reason at all, then because they are human beings. Of course some beliefs place human beings on different tiers, based on various factors from assumed morality to finances to birthright, etc. So it all depends on the individual, I guess.

The wall is not a violent act. The Israeli military uses violence only on terrorists.

the wall is a blatant land-grab meant to further disposses palestinians.

and the israeli military also uses violence on international observers and israelis who dare to oppose the unjust actions ordered by the israeli government.

The wall is not a violent act. The Israeli military uses violence only on terrorists.
you mean like blowing up bulding assumed to be hamas strong holds or where there are hamas people presumably

or "precision" strike one large masses of people with sidewinders to kill a single person?

i see the israeli state as no less of a terrorist organization than hamas

Israel wouldn't have any justification for building a wall if their population wasn't under constant attack.

the wall is a blatant land-grab meant to further disposses palestinians.

and the israeli military also uses violence on international observers and israelis who dare to oppose the unjust actions ordered by the israeli government.
it gives me flashbacks of the berlin wall, anyone else?

And still no response to my posts.

Why? I asked for proof.

you mean like blowing up bulding assumed to be hamas strong holds or where there are hamas people presumably

or "precision" strike one large masses of people with sidewinders to kill a single person?

i see the israeli state as no less of a terrorist organization than hamas
A sidewinder is an air to air weapon. It's damn near useless for engaging a ground target. I don't even think it would go off.
BTW, if israeli inteligence was that bad, why do they have a reputation as one of the best intel. agencies in the world?

Israel wouldn't have any justification for building a wall if their population wasn't under constant attack.
maybe they should stop state terrorism and remove their people from the palestinian area and you know not build a wall in it

Instead of endlessly bashing the wall and Israeli tactics, if people care to look at recent records by the ISF you'll see that thwarted terorrist attacks take up a much greater percentage of total terrorist attacks now than they did two years ago.

maybe they should stop state terrorism and remove their people from the palestinian area and you know not build a wall in it
Israeli settlements won't go just because Sharon snaps his fingers, sorry.

A sidewinder is an air to air weapon. It's damn near useless for engaging a ground target. I don't even think it would go off.
BTW, if israeli inteligence was that bad, why do they have a reputation as one of the best intel. agencies in the world?
boo hoo, i got the wrong weapon.


rofl, thats not israeli intelligence fucknig up, thats willful

they are firing an air to ground missile into a LARGE group of people to kill a single person, you would think they have heard of sniper rifles, dont the israeli military have their own type?

Israeli settlements won't go just because Sharon snaps his fingers, sorry.
they seem to have a very effective military, perhaps they should use it

When you start your thread with "Sure they are oppressed...." as a matter of fact statement, and then pretend that this is irrelevant, it makes me shake my head.

Do I approve of their tactics? No. Would Israelis use any diferent tactics if the roles were reversed? Probably not much diferent. Occupied peoples against a technologically superior force will always resort to whatever tactics they can manage.

The fact is that this is a situation that has decades of escalation, poor judgement, and atrocities on both sides. Any moral high ground sunk below even the surface of the Dead Sea a long, long time ago.

Take a moment to remember the words of your finest General, Mosh Dayan when he stated at the funeral of a farmer killed by a Palestinan: "". . . Let us not today fling accusation at the murderers. What cause have we to complain about their fierce hatred to us? For eight years now, they sit in their refugee camps in Gaza, and before their eyes we turn into our homestead the land and villages in which they and their forefathers have lived."

I'm not one to put the blame only on one side here. Eventually you have to have the will to end the cycle or you condemn yourself to it's continuation.

they seem to have a very effective military, perhaps they should use it
If they wanted to kill innocents, it would be very easy to do so. Unfortunately they don't as you like to suppose.

If Israel really wanted to iflict casualties on the palestinian population, they could evicerate it with their military. No other nations would intervene because Israel has nuclear weapons. Arabs don't, and Europe doesn't care enough. Israel is _clearly_ going easy on the palestinians.

If they wanted to kill innocents, it would be very easy to do so. Unfortunately they don't as you like to suppose.
who the fuck said anything about killing?

the US rounded up the japanese americans and germans and italians in america pretty effectively during world war 2, the germans rounded up plenty of jews and homosexuals and the like, they killed them laters of course, but they rounded them up, all israel has to do is round up a bunch of illegal settlements of their own countrymen and move their asses back to israel

killing is a last resort, get that through your head captain oblivious

If Israel really wanted to iflict casualties on the palestinian population, they could evicerate it with their military. No other nations would intervene because Israel has nuclear weapons. Arabs don't, and Europe doesn't care enough. Israel is _clearly_ going easy on the palestinians.
rofl, are you kidding me, the arabs HATE israel, the palestinians are arabs, the israelis are jews. why do you think the terrorists over there give a damn about us? because we support israel blindly

who the fuck said anything about killing?
Ah, so now we're rounding up people, many of whom were born there, and shipping them out so people who weren't born there can have the land. All the buildings, investments, and other things that have to be left behind, what would be done with it? Palestine has no government to speak of and wouldn't pay the Israelis anyway. You can't really displace people and just put them somewhere else, its physically possible, but the people would resist it and no one's going to support internment camps for the displaced people.

Ah, so now we're rounding up people, many of whom were born there, and shipping them out so people who weren't born there can have the land. All the buildings, investments, and other things that have to be left behind, what would be done with it? Palestine has no government to speak of and wouldn't pay the Israelis anyway. You can't really displace people and just put them somewhere else, its physically possible, but the people would resist it and no one's going to support internment camps for the displaced people.


No offense, but are you not describing what Israel did to the Palestinians in order to get most of the land to begin with? Why is "impractical" to do so for illegal settlements when it was quite practical to do so to established Palestinian villages?

No offense, but are you not describing what Israel did to the Palestinians in order to get most of the land to begin with? Why is "impractical" to do so for illegal settlements when it was quite practical to do so to established Palestinian villages?
Because, just because someone else did it dosen't mean that it makes it right to do it back. You know, two wrongs don't make a right. That stuff. The solution often proposed by those displaced is to simply displace others, which dosen't exactly make sense either. Of course what happened during the wars and before was wrong. Unfortunately it happened, and the clock isn't turning backwards.

If Israel really wanted to iflict casualties on the palestinian population, they could evicerate it with their military. No other nations would intervene because Israel has nuclear weapons. Arabs don't, and Europe doesn't care enough. Israel is _clearly_ going easy on the palestinians.

Mm, they could inflict alot more damage then they are. but if they did, they would get the whol,e western world against them aswell and the nukes they have wouldn't have helped then.

And don't you think it's a bit retarded to use a choppermissile that won't just dmg one guy rather then use a sniperrifle?

and I don'yt think they are easy on the Palestinians. You know, about 99% of them are innocent...

Because, just because someone else did it dosen't mean that it makes it right to do it back. You know, two wrongs don't make a right. That stuff. The solution often proposed by those displaced is to simply displace others, which dosen't exactly make sense either. Of course what happened during the wars and before was wrong. Unfortunately it happened, and the clock isn't turning backwards.

Seriously, good answer.

Because, just because someone else did it dosen't mean that it makes it right to do it back. You know, two wrongs don't make a right. That stuff. The solution often proposed by those displaced is to simply displace others, which dosen't exactly make sense either. Of course what happened during the wars and before was wrong. Unfortunately it happened, and the clock isn't turning backwards.


Well, it just seems self serving to acknowledge an action as wrong, but then refuse to correct it under the premise that "gosh, we can't do that to ourselves too! That would be SOOOO wrong!"

Anyway, like I said - their is culpability on both sides. But inflexibility is not a harbringer of peace in my opinion.

and I don'yt think they are easy on the Palestinians. You know, about 99% of them are innocent...

Damn it, people. Stop making up statistics.

If Israel really wanted to iflict casualties on the palestinian population, they could evicerate it with their military. No other nations would intervene because Israel has nuclear weapons. Arabs don't, and Europe doesn't care enough. Israel is _clearly_ going easy on the palestinians.
Not to mention the US would give them their full support.

Well, it just seems self serving to acknowledge an action as wrong, but then refuse to correct it under the premise that "gosh, we can't do that to ourselves too! That would be SOOOO wrong!"

Anyway, like I said - their is culpability on both sides. But inflexibility is not a harbringer of peace in my opinion.

But then again... if there came a really strong cry in the US to give land back to the Native Americans... ya think that would ever happen?

Wasn't one of the leaders of one of the terrorist organizations, I think Hamas, assasinated with a sniper rifle? I believe that when they can, the ISF tries minimizes casualties.

Sure, they are opressed, but their actions make it impossible for me to be sympathetic toward them. When India wanted freedom from the British empire, Ghandi showed them how to do it peacefully. India is a well respected nation now. When Blacks in the USA were horribly opressed Dr. Martin Luther King, Malcom X and others led the fight for equality (in most cases through peaceful means) When the people of Russia had had enough of the czar and wanted some stake in their government, they fought against the military and the oppressors to take their nation. These are respectable actions (although I don't agree with communism).
Palestinians seem to think blowing up a bus full of school children, and shooting a family of four makes them heroes. Meanwhile, the Israelis try to target only the terrorists, and reduce civilian casualties in the Palestinian territioris.

Both sides have rivers of blood on their hands; both sides are responsible. Ever notice how whilst we hear about homocide bombers (Yes, they are murderers) we hear less about Jewish settlers going into the Palestinian territories and building whole communities there illegally? Gosh, that would tick me off -- not only pushing my family out of where they've lived forever, but then grabbing more land from what you kindly left me? And to be honest, I wouldn't feel much like playing fairly either, when I had to go scrape a wedding party off the walls and ceiling of the hall they were celebrating in.

Both sides need to stop being hypocritical. The Israelis need to keep the settlers in check, if it means dragging them out of their illegal settlements and razing them; the Palestinians need to keep their radicals in check, if it means having the Palestinian authorities itself disarm them and put them in jail for their acts of terrorism and homicide.

If both sides did more to correct the wrong doings of their "own people" perhaps there could actually be peace.

Please don't be revisionist: while Dr. King certainly preached peaceful civil disobedience, Malcolm X's career was mostly marked by his advocating any means -- often including violence -- in getting what he and the community needed.

Ah, so now we're rounding up people, many of whom were born there, and shipping them out so people who weren't born there can have the land. All the buildings, investments, and other things that have to be left behind, what would be done with it? Palestine has no government to speak of and wouldn't pay the Israelis anyway. You can't really displace people and just put them somewhere else, its physically possible, but the people would resist it and no one's going to support internment camps for the displaced people.
you ignore the fact they are there illegally and it is palestinian land, not israeli

Damn it, people. Stop making up statistics.

would be seriously suprised if more then 1% of the Palestinians actually where Terrorists.

And about the other statics... Joey P said there was next to no innocent cassualties, wich is far from truw. The other guy said 9 of 10. Both imo are as wrong or so.

Anyway, feel free to prove me wrong.

But then again... if there came a really strong cry in the US to give land back to the Native Americans... ya think that would ever happen?
you do realise it is designated palestinian land, the very little that they have, its like if you and your famiyl and friends and their family went to an indian settlement and started taking over there

Ah, so now we're rounding up people, many of whom were born there, and shipping them out so people who weren't born there can have the land. All the buildings, investments, and other things that have to be left behind, what would be done with it? Palestine has no government to speak of and wouldn't pay the Israelis anyway. You can't really displace people and just put them somewhere else, its physically possible, but the people would resist it and no one's going to support internment camps for the displaced people.
You can't? Then how did the Palestinians end up in Gaza and the West Bank?

would be seriously suprised if more then 1% of the Palestinians actually where Terrorists.

And about the other statics... Joey P said there was next to no innocent cassualties, wich is far from truw. The other guy said 9 of 10. Both imo are as wrong or so.

Anyway, feel free to prove me wrong.

I pointed those out too!

People are raping the science of statistics.... They're just shouting out things that seem to sound right.

And I'm trying to desperately point that out and reprimand them.

Because, just because someone else did it dosen't mean that it makes it right to do it back. You know, two wrongs don't make a right. That stuff. The solution often proposed by those displaced is to simply displace others, which dosen't exactly make sense either. Of course what happened during the wars and before was wrong. Unfortunately it happened, and the clock isn't turning backwards.


The whole point is that ISRAEL should do the right thing and evacuate their people from territory that it has AGREED is Palestinian.

And so what if they leave buildings behind? The buildings we are talking about are Illegal settlement buildings -- meaning buildings people put up against Israel's treaties. If private parties want to do that, then they SHOULD have to forfeit them.

You can't just come onto my property and build a pool in my backyard -- and if you do, I've every right to have you arrested, have a restraining order sworn out against you to keep you from criminally trespassing again and guess what? you don't get the pool back. ;)

you ignore the fact they are there illegally and it is palestinian land, not israeli
If it was as plain cut as that, there would be no problem. Unfortunately, every side and every group has a different definition and dividing marker as to whats legal and whats not.

you do realise it is designated palestinian land, the very little that they have, its like if you and your famiyl and friends and their family went to an indian settlement and started taking over there

Designated... yes designated... Native Americans designated their own land... then Europeans came along... Then later the US started designating Indian Reservations. But then going back on their promises. All of Oklahoma was designated to be an Indian Reservation... but the US government decided that was too much land for the Native Americans... and opened it to settlement.

Now let us take oklahoma for example... What if we were to move every person from Oklahama and move in the Native Americans. Moving around whole populations is wrong. Period. No matter who was displaced before.

If it was as plain cut as that, there would be no problem. Unfortunately, every side and every group has a different definition and dividing marker as to whats legal and whats not.
it IS as plain cut as that, that land is designated palistinian territory

If it was as plain cut as that, there would be no problem. Unfortunately, every side and every group has a different definition and dividing marker as to whats legal and whats not.
Then pull out the treaties that were signed, and go by that???? just a suggestion???

Designated... yes designated... Native Americans designated their own land... then Europeans came along... Then later the US started designating Indian Reservations. But then going back on their promises. All of Oklahoma was designated to be an Indian Reservation... but the US government decided that was too much land for the Native Americans... and opened it to settlement.

Now let us take oklahoma for example... What if we were to move every person from Oklahama and move in the Native Americans. Moving around whole populations is wrong. Period. No matter who was displaced before.
your missing the point that the israelis being there is the equivolent of some one moving into an indian settlement and moving in all their friends

Designated... yes designated... Native Americans designated their own land... then Europeans came along... Then later the US started designating Indian Reservations. But then going back on their promises. All of Oklahoma was designated to be an Indian Reservation... but the US government decided that was too much land for the Native Americans... and opened it to settlement.

Now let us take oklahoma for example... What if we were to move every person from Oklahama and move in the Native Americans. Moving around whole populations is wrong. Period. No matter who was displaced before.

This is apples and oranges, as you well know, because there have been agreements and reparations made to the Native American population including the fact that the reservations are sovereign nations in and of themselves and tribal law rules there; that there have been large cash settlements made; that they have the exclusive rights to running casinos in states where no other people can, and that they still have all the rights and privileges of American citizens -- education, health care, welfare, et cetera. They deserve every bit of it, but as I said, the reparations have been made with agreement on both sides, for the most part.

If Israel were to broker similar deals....?

The whole point is that ISRAEL should do the right thing and evacuate their people from territory that it has AGREED is Palestinian.
No one has agreed what's what, thats the thing. Before Arafat resorted to terrorism again and they were having peace talks, some of the settlements were going to remain under Israeli control. Not all, of course, but some of them were, meaning that there was no set line as to what is definately Palestinian and what is definately Israeli. If everything was so easy, then this place wouldn't be such a mess, as I said in my last post.

Now let us take oklahoma for example... What if we were to move every person from Oklahama and move in the Native Americans. Moving around whole populations is wrong. Period. No matter who was displaced before.

what about the day after a whole population has been forcefully removed and a new one takes its place? would it be wrong to kick out the displacers then?

Then pull out the treaties that were signed, and go by that???? just a suggestion???
Impossible, given all thats happened since they were last signed. They tried to get some done in the 90's but it didn't exactly work. Again, if it were just like that, it wouldn't be a problem.

your missing the point that the israelis being there is the equivolent of some one moving into an indian settlement and moving in all their friends
No... you're missing the point... That's what America and Americans (illegally if thats what your aiming for...) have just settled on Native American land... be it originally, or be it on "Reservations".

it IS as plain cut as that, that land is designated palistinian territory
No, its not. Even the PA and Arafat admitted as much as they were prepared to let some of the settlements be under Israeli jurisdiction. At least before they chose intifada again.

This is apples and oranges, as you well know, because there have been agreements and reparations made to the Native American population including the fact that the reservations are sovereign nations in and of themselves and tribal law rules there; that there have been large cash settlements made; that they have the exclusive rights to running casinos in states where no other people can, and that they still have all the rights and privileges of American citizens -- education, health care, welfare, et cetera.
Yeah I know. But the point was (this was just an example) that simply moving out non-Native Americans to move in Native Americans as reparations is unfeasible and as wrong as stealing NAtive American land in the first place.

what about the day after a whole population has been forcefully removed and a new one takes its place? would it be wrong to kick out the displacers then?

Just think about what you said there. So a whole population is forcibly removed by another... in one day... and then the next day... the whole population that was originally there attempts to take back its lost land...
That's just impossible.

Just think about what you said there. So a whole population is forcibly removed by another... in one day... and then the next day... the whole population that was originally there attempts to take back its lost land...
That's just impossible.

make it a month, make it a year, make it whatever. it seems to me that it is inherently right to kick out those who displaced the original population no matter how long ago that occured - perhaps with a stipulation about 'within living memory' or some such. they are theives after all. it's just that it is politically expedient to compromise on that right in some situations.

make it a month, make it a year, make it whatever. it seems to me that it is inherently right to kick out those who displaced the original population no matter how long ago that occured - perhaps with a stipulation about 'within living memory' or some such. they are theives after all. it's just that it is politically expedient to compromise on that right in some situations.
Now look here you're looking at things into broad a picture. You're thinking in populations... governments, but let me give you a hypothetical scenario. Now your nation takes a new province and due to whatever reason there is, be it new oppurtunities in this new territory or lack therof in where you live, so you decide to legally move to that territory. Now you make your home there. Your entire family is already settled in and suddenly the old population comes in and forces you off. Siezes the expensive land you bought from the government. Takes your house and kicks you out. Is that so right?

No... you're missing the point... That's what America and Americans (illegally if thats what your aiming for...) have just settled on Native American land... be it originally, or be it on "Reservations".
no im not missing the point it was MY point to make, you dont get my point, i cant not get my own point I MADE IT

Then quite honestly, Israel should BUY the homes of the illegal settlers and give them incentives to relocate legally.

We do that in the US -- eminent domain, don't you know. We need to widen a road, we give the people who live where the road will go money to relocate and to buy a new home.

Then perhaps they would not need quite so much money for their military, nor to make military service compulsory for all citizens?

Now look here you're looking at things into broad a picture. You're thinking in populations... governments, but let me give you a hypothetical scenario. Now your nation takes a new province and due to whatever reason there is, be it new oppurtunities in this new territory or lack therof in where you live, so you decide to legally move to that territory. Now you make your home there. Your entire family is already settled in and suddenly the old population comes in and forces you off. Siezes the expensive land you bought from the government. Takes your house and kicks you out. Is that so right?
they should give them reparations, i odnt care, but they should be removed from the land, they are there ILLEGALLY, they are barely towns, round them up, get their belongings, haul their asses back to israeli territory

no im not missing the point it was MY point to make, you dont get my point, i cant not get my own point I MADE IT
Since when did you claim that point? I don't see any documents of you claiming it. Move off my point damn it. It was mine first.

People are raping the science of statistics..

Atleast we aren't justufying for some bad things and proving that we are doing the right thing with statics. ;)

Since when did you claim that point? I don't see any documents of you claiming it. Move off my point damn it. It was mine first.
i claimed my point when i made it, you cant have your point when it is what we are talking about

Meanwhile, the Israelis try to target only the terrorists, and reduce civilian casualties in the Palestinian territioris.

That's debatable.

i claimed my point when i made it, you cant have your point when it is what we are talking about
Since when did you make that point? What are you a maker of points now? That point was shared and you stole it from me.

Damn it, people. Stop making up statistics.

“There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.”

– Benjamin Disraeli, Prime Minister of England (1868, 1874-1880)

“There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.”

– Benjamin Disraeli, Prime Minister of England (1868, 1874-1880)
Only when they are used inproperly... Ya know I had to disprove that quote for Statistics last year...

Statistics and the Media it was called.

Sure, they are oppressed, but their actions make it impossible for me to be sympathetic toward them.

When the people of Russia had had enough of the czar and wanted some stake in their government, they fought against the military and the oppressors to take their nation. These are respectable actions (although I don't agree with communism).

Palestinians seem to think blowing up a bus full of school children, and shooting a family of four makes them heroes. Meanwhile, the Israelis try to target only the terrorists, and reduce civilian casualties in the Palestinian territioris.
OK, you make the completely incorrect assumption here that all Palestinians are terrorist suicide bombers. Hamas doesn't represent all Palestinians.

The Russian Revolution was one of the most violent in history; it was an all-out civil war. The Russians made Hamas look like, well... Ghandi.

Wrong. Hamas thinks this. The Israeli army does not only target terrorists. In the past five years, around 20% of Palestinians killed by the Israeli Army have been children. The homes of thousands of Palestinians have been destroyed also. Maybe you remember than in May of this year, an Israeli helicopter shot missiles at a crowd of Palestinian protestors, killing 10 civilians. The Israelis claimed that they saw a few men in the crowd holding handguns, as if this was a good reason to shoot.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1007051,00.html

How can you not feel sympathy for the oppressed Palestinians?

"All we need is a voluntary, free-spirited, open-ended program of procreative racial deconstruction. Everybody just gotta keep fuckin' everybody 'til they're all the same color."

- Bullworth, "Bullworth"

Yes, Mr. Amerigo, your signiture has been PWN3Doneoneoneone111!!!!!!!! :D

...and improved upon. :cool:

Now look here you're looking at things into broad a picture. You're thinking in populations... governments, but let me give you a hypothetical scenario. Now your nation takes a new province and due to whatever reason there is, be it new oppurtunities in this new territory or lack therof in where you live, so you decide to legally move to that territory. Now you make your home there. Your entire family is already settled in and suddenly the old population comes in and forces you off. Siezes the expensive land you bought from the government. Takes your house and kicks you out. Is that so right?

yes. your claim to that land was illegitimate. however, you might have a case that your government owes you reparations for selling you stolen goods.

I don't care about them, I support the Isrealis to KILL them ALL if they want to.

I don't care about them, I support the Isrealis to KILL them ALL if they want to.
Heil Endoscopia! He shall end all the problems of Israel with his ingenious final solution!

Heil Endoscopia! He shall end all the problems of Israel with his ingenious final solution!

Whats with anti-semitism and final soloutions.

make it a month, make it a year, make it whatever. it seems to me that it is inherently right to kick out those who displaced the original population no matter how long ago that occured - perhaps with a stipulation about 'within living memory' or some such. they are theives after all. it's just that it is politically expedient to compromise on that right in some situations.

Well if it doesn't matter how long ago they were displaced, then the Israelis have the right to all the land, unless any Canaanites show up to dispute their claim.

would be seriously suprised if more then 1% of the Palestinians actually where Terrorists.

And about the other statics... Joey P said there was next to no innocent cassualties, wich is far from truw. The other guy said 9 of 10. Both imo are as wrong or so.

Anyway, feel free to prove me wrong.
I never said that there were no innocent casualties. You are a liar. What I said is that Israel tries to minimize civilian casualties when it can. The palestinians try to inflict as many civilian casualties as possible. That's their strategy. If the palestinians targeted government and military personell and instalations I would be much more sympathetic to their plight.
And for the guy who said that only 1 % of the palestinians are guilty, he should understand that the MAJORITY of the palestinian people approve of, and support the terrorists. Families are PROUD of their children who kill a bus load of Israelis. Young palestinian girls look at posters of terrorists with the same look in their eyes a civilized girls looking at the latest pop star. Palestinians have built a culture around terrorism. Providing monetary, ideological, and logistical support to the terrorists makes the MAJORITY of the palestinians guilty.

There will NEVER be peace between those two groups. There is too much of a history between them to allow for it. Eventually the Israelis will tire of the Palestinians and they will push them into the river Jordan. The palestinians are jusr surrogate soldiers for the other Arab states and they do not even realize that they are being used. The other Arab states really could not care less about them, all that open room in those countries and they will not allow them in.

I never said that there were no innocent casualties. You are a liar. What I said is that Israel tries to minimize civilian casualties when it can.
which i take it is done by firing missiles into large groups of people to kill one or two people and blowing up buildings

The palestinians try to inflict as many civilian casualties as possible. That's their strategy. If the palestinians targeted government and military personell and instalations I would be much more sympathetic to their plight.
i would be more sympathetic torwards the israelis if the ceased to see how much they can blow up when targeting single people, and you seem to imply all palestinians are terrorist, hamas is alot easier to type than palestinian

And for the guy who said that only 1 % of the palestinians are guilty, he should understand that the MAJORITY of the palestinian people approve of, and support the terrorists.
but they are not terrorists
Families are PROUD of their children who kill a bus load of Israelis. Young palestinian girls look at posters of terrorists with the same look in their eyes a civilized girls looking at the latest pop star. Palestinians have built a culture around terrorism. Providing monetary, ideological, and logistical support to the terrorists makes the MAJORITY of the palestinians guilty.

forget implying, you are starting all palestinians are terrorists which isn't true, and if you had been oppressed for what? hundreds of years, you would agree with them too, you would stop caring who you kill as long as the point gets across. and the israelis do not have the moral high ground, as some one else said, the moral high ground already sunk long ago for both groups, i see the israelis with no more respect than the terrorists

which i take it is done by firing missiles into large groups of people to kill one or two people and blowing up buildings


i would be more sympathetic torwards the israelis if the ceased to see how much they can blow up when targeting single people, and you seem to imply all palestinians are terrorist, hamas is alot easier to type than palestinian


but they are not terrorists


forget implying, you are starting all palestinians are terrorists which isn't true, and if you had been oppressed for what? hundreds of years, you would agree with them too, you would stop caring who you kill as long as the point gets across. and the israelis do not have the moral high ground, as some one else said, the moral high ground already sunk long ago for both groups, i see the israelis with no more respect than the terrorists

When exactly did I say that ALL palestinians were terrorists?

When exactly did I say that ALL palestinians were terrorists?
you implied it plenty

you implied it plenty

Read my posts and stick to what I SAID. Don't try to put words in my mouth. When you use straw man arguments in a debate it shows you are out of ammo.

Read my posts and stick to what I SAID. Don't try to put words in my mouth. When you use straw man arguments in a debate it shows you are out of ammo.
who needs straw men, they burn

The palestinians try to inflict as many civilian casualties as possible

that looks like nothing so far, until we get down to

Palestinians have built a culture around terrorism. Providing monetary, ideological, and logistical support to the terrorists makes the MAJORITY of the palestinians guilty.

I said most palestinians are guilty of SUPPORTING terrorism. Not that most palestinians ARE terrorists. See the difference?

I said most palestinians are guilty of SUPPORTING terrorism. Not that most palestinians ARE terrorists. See the difference?
"palestinians have a culture built around terrorism"
and i'm sure if you ask another conservative they will tell you supporting them is the same as being them

1 I'm not a conservative.
2 I never said that ideological support of terrorism is the same as being a terrorist. Still, it's unacceptable, and I have no sympathy for them until they abandon their support for terrorists.

1 I'm not a conservative.
2 I never said that ideological support of terrorism is the same as being a terrorist. Still, it's unacceptable, and I have no sympathy for them until they abandon their support for terrorists.
well fine hten ask a conservative or at least a dim bush supporter (thats outside the conservative circle people) they will probably tell you its the same

i have no sympathy for either, i might have more for israel if they at least made a grab for the moral high ground

The wall is not a violent act. The Israeli military uses violence only on terrorists.

Thats a bit naive, isn't it? The wall may not be a 'violent act', but it is insulting and oppressive. Let's face it, if somebody erected a wall on land that should belong to you, and demolished houses and other buildings, you'd be feeling a little :mad: too

Thats a bit naive, isn't it? The wall may not be a 'violent act', but it is insulting and oppressive. Let's face it, if somebody erected a wall on land that should belong to you, and demolished houses and other buildings, you'd be feeling a little :mad: too
Yeah, but I wouldn't kill his wife and kids. Civilized behavior would win me more sympathy when I go to the authorities and ask for the wall to be torn down.

Yeah, but I wouldn't kill his wife and kids. Civilized behavior would win me more sympathy when I go to the authorities and ask for the wall to be torn down.
Too bad the palestinians can't do that.
What would you do if the authorities told you to shut the fuck up?

Too bad the palestinians can't do that.
What would you do if the authorities told you to shut the fuck up?
Tear down the wall myself and beat the crap out of the guy who built it. Once again, I would _not_ go after his wife and kids.

Tear down the wall myself and beat the crap out of the guy who built it. Once again, I would _not_ go after his wife and kids.

and exactly what percentage of palestinians have gone after his wife and kids? remember, this number will be smaller than the total number of 'terrorist' attack, because a significant percent of those involve attacks on military targets. and attacks on the wall are considered terrorism too, and can get you shot.

Tear down the wall myself and beat the crap out of the guy who built it. Once again, I would _not_ go after his wife and kids.Ok what if the guy had an army protecting him and there was an army protecting the wall?

Ok what if the guy had an army protecting him and there was an army protecting the wall?
I would arm myself and attack the ARMY, not civilians. Maybe I would die, but I have some morals, unlike the palestinians.

I would arm myself and attack the ARMY, not civilians. Maybe I would die, but I have some morals, unlike the palestinians.What if they send a rocket and kill you along with your family as soon as their intelligence tell them you are acquiring weapons?

I would arm myself and attack the ARMY, not civilians. Maybe I would die, but I have some morals, unlike the palestinians.
and again you do it

I said most palestinians are guilty of SUPPORTING terrorism. Not that most palestinians ARE terrorists. See the difference?
And why are their supporting them? It's not like the US would give them their support against Israel would they?

What if they send a rocket and kill you along with your family as soon as their intelligence tell them you are acquiring weapons?
then I would be dead. Still, I would not have the blood of innocents on my hands.

And why are their supporting them? It's not like the US would give them their support against Israel would they?
Maybe the US would if the palestinians didn't condone killing women and children.

Maybe the US would if the palestinians didn't condone killing women and children.
No. They wouldn't.

then I would be dead. Still, I would not have the blood of innocents on my hands.
Now let's suppose you are the neighbour of yourself (the man who just died with his family). What would you do?

and again you do it
Do what? Paint with too broad a brush? Sorry I'm kind of rushed here. I meant the vast majority of palestinians have no moral objection to murdering babies and women.

Maybe the US would if the palestinians didn't condone killing women and children.
Do you know that Israel was created thanks to zionist terrorism. Where was the US then?

Do you know that Israel was created thanks to zionist terrorism. Where was the US then?
Israel was created to give Jews a homeland after they were nearly exterminated by Nazis. What zionist terrorism are you talking about?

the reason palestinians attack civilians is because they don't have an army of their own, kids die every day in palestine because they go throw rocks at tanks and the tanks just run 'em down.

Israel was created to give Jews a homeland after they were nearly exterminated by Nazis. What zionist terrorism are you talking about?You know that the zionists claimed this land long before WW2, don't you?

the reason palestinians attack civilians is because they don't have an army of their own, kids die every day in palestine because they go throw rocks at tanks and the tanks just run 'em down.
And if the tank stops for the kid it takes an RPG round in the turet. Those soldiers want to live to see their families again. If the kid is dumb enough to stand in front of a tank and throw rocks, humanity is probably better off without him in the gene pool. People need to use common sense, and take responsibility for their actions.

You know that the zionists claimed this land long before WW2, don't you?
No, I wasn't. I was aware, however, that Jews and Christians in muslim lands were subject to rape, robbery, murder, and enslavement and had no legal recourse under the sharia laws. The Jews probably wanted their own homeland so they would have a refuge from such treatment.

And if the tank stops for the kid it takes an RPG round in the turet. Those soldiers want to live to see their families again. If the kid is dumb enough to stand in front of a tank and throw rocks, humanity is probably better off without him in the gene pool. People need to use common sense, and take responsibility for their actions.This logic is sick. You could say that if zionist are dumb enough to come to live in Israel, humanity is better off without them in the gene pool, couldn't you?

No, I wasn't. I was aware, however, that Jews and Christians in muslim lands were subject to rape, robbery, murder, and enslavement and had no legal recourse under the sharia laws. The Jews probably wanted their own homeland so they would have a refuge from such treatment.Then you should learn that the zionist gained their country from terrorism on the british.

This logic is sick. You could say that if zionist are dumb enough to come to live in Israel, humanity is better off without them in the gene pool, couldn't you?
Nope, the israelis aren't doing something as suicidal as standing in front of a tank armed with a rock. What do those kids expect is going to happen?

Nope, the israelis aren't doing something as suicidal as standing in front of a tank armed with a rock. What do those kids expect is going to happen?
I would arm myself and attack the ARMY, not civilians. Maybe I would die, but I have some morals, unlike the palestinians.
Answer the question yourself. What do you expect to happen?

Then you should learn that the zionist gained their country from terrorism on the british.
I'll look that up later, and if you are wrong, I'll call you on it. Still, the jews had no place to go. Europe has traditionaly been unfriendly to them. The US didn't want them, they had no choice. Meanwhile, the borders of Middle Eastern countries are artificial anyway. Products of European collonial occupation. The palestinians could have been absorbed into any one of those muslim countries. The problem is that their fellow muslims didn't want them. They wanted a proxy army to push those evil jews into the sea.

Answer the question yourself. What do you expect to happen?
You were looking for me to pity a kid who died fighting. That was his choice. No pity here. sorry

I also never said I would be stupid enough to take on a tank with a rock. I would use appropriate weapons, even if they were just simple home-made shaped charges.

I'll look that up later, and if you are wrong, I'll call you on it. Still, the jews had no place to go. Europe has traditionaly been unfriendly to them. The US didn't want them, they had no choice. Meanwhile, the borders of Middle Eastern countries are artificial anyway. Products of European collonial occupation. The palestinians could have been absorbed into any one of those muslim countries. The problem is that their fellow muslims didn't want them. They wanted a proxy army to push those evil jews into the sea.
But they still used terrorism. According to you they should not have, should they?

But they still used terrorism. According to you they should not have, should they?
Not if the terrorism targeted civilians. That's moraly objectionable to me. I have no sympathy for terrorists who kill civilians.

Not if the terrorism targeted civilians. That's moraly objectionable to me. I have no sympathy for terrorists who kill civilians.

Isn't the kid with the rock still a civillian?

And if the tank stops for the kid it takes an RPG round in the turet. Those soldiers want to live to see their families again. If the kid is dumb enough to stand in front of a tank and throw rocks, humanity is probably better off without him in the gene pool. People need to use common sense, and take responsibility for their actions.
tanks dont move that fast, you think they wouldnt be taking rpg rounds if they stood still?

Israel was created to give Jews a homeland after they were nearly exterminated by Nazis. What zionist terrorism are you talking about?

The bombing of the king david hotel, killing 90 British civillians.

The Israelis are a long way from blameless, but most support of the palestinians coming from both the Middle East and the West is thinly veiled anti-semitism.

When news of September 11th broke in the middle east, thousands of Palestinians were out dancing in joy in the streets and throwing candy.

That's all I need to know to choose my side. Frankly, "Americans" who support people that act like that aren't, and they should go find another country if they hate mine so much.

make it a month, make it a year, make it whatever. it seems to me that it is inherently right to kick out those who displaced the original population no matter how long ago that occured - perhaps with a stipulation about 'within living memory' or some such. they are theives after all. it's just that it is politically expedient to compromise on that right in some situations.

I'm curious as to where people think the Israelis stole the land? I mean, the jews didn't invade and conquer Palestine...there was never any such country. I mean, if you really want to go way back, you could says jews were there long before muslims (pre biblical). The land was given the the Israelis following WW2 by the British. Why was it theirs to give....because it used to be part of the Ottoman Empire, and they were on the losing side of WW1. Now jews didn't suddenly pack up and just come to Israel. The Zionist movement started in the 1800s....they had been living there for year. Britain tried to divide the land into two countries, Israel, and Palestine. The Jews agreed, the Muslims didn't, and that whole part of the world has been out to destroy them since. Every single one of Israel's neighbors have forcefully tried to wipe them off the earth over the last 60 years. I say let them put up a wall.

I'm curious as to where people think the Israelis stole the land? I mean, the jews didn't invade and conquer Palestine...there was never any such country. I mean, if you really want to go way back, you could says jews were there long before muslims (pre biblical). The land was given the the Israelis following WW2 by the British. Why was it theirs to give....because it used to be part of the Ottoman Empire, and they were on the losing side of WW1. Now jews didn't suddenly pack up and just come to Israel. The Zionist movement started in the 1800s....they had been living there for year. Britain tried to divide the land into two countries, Israel, and Palestine. The Jews agreed, the Muslims didn't, and that whole part of the world has been out to destroy them since. Every single one of Israel's neighbors have forcefully tried to wipe them off the earth over the last 60 years. I say let them put up a wall.

When I have made such statements, I don't refer to the territory that's legally Israel, I refer to the illegally occupied areas, such as the West Bank / Cisjordan and the Gaza Strip. These areas are beyond doubt illegally occupied by Israel.
I certainly do not contest Israel's right to exist, but only on its own territory.

Isn't the kid with the rock still a civillian?
No. He's a combatant because he's taking aggressive action agaist the tank (throwing rocks) and trying to delay the tank so others can get a good shot at it with an RPG, or so that other combatants can retreat and regroup. If he simply ran away he would be a civilian.

The bombing of the king david hotel, killing 90 British civillians.
If that's true it's a terrible crime. Still, the modern state of Israel doesn't engage in terrorism.

No. He's a combatant because he's taking aggressive action agaist the tank (throwing rocks) and trying to delay the tank so others can get a good shot at it with an RPG, or so that other combatants can retreat and regroup. If he simply ran away he would be a civilian.

Right, that happens every time theres a kid throwing stones, there's a guy with an RPG waiting.
Ever thought that it is done as a form of protest? Just like in other protests which happen arround the world.

No. He's a combatant because he's taking aggressive action agaist the tank (throwing rocks) and trying to delay the tank so others can get a good shot at it with an RPG, or so that other combatants can retreat and regroup. If he simply ran away he would be a civilian.
angry civilians are still civilians, and you dont have to stop something from moving to hit it with an rpg

If that's true it's a terrible crime. Still, the modern state of Israel doesn't engage in terrorism.
No, just uses terror tactics and collective punishment against the Palestinian population.

When I have made such statements, I don't refer to the territory that's legally Israel, I refer to the illegally occupied areas, such as the West Bank / Cisjordan and the Gaza Strip. These areas are beyond doubt illegally occupied by Israel. I certainly do not contest Israel's right to exist, but only on its own territory.

Defined by what? What legality? Israel's neighbors have been trying for 60 years to wipe them off the face of the earth. If they have lost territory in the process, well, to the victor goes the spoils. Most of the nations of this world are defined by boundaries won through war.

angry civilians are still civilians, and you dont have to stop something from moving to hit it with an rpg
RPGs are notoriously inaccurate against moving targets in the hands of untrained and poorly trained fighters. Want proof? Go to cambodia. On some of their military bases you can shoot at a cow with an RPG 7 for $100 american/round. I'll bet you miss. A moving tank in a crowded street is much harder to hit than a stationary cow. Also the kid is clearly _not_ a civillian. He's fighting a delaying action against an enemy force.

No, just uses terror tactics and collective punishment against the Palestinian population.
What terror tactics? Blowing up bomb factories? Bombing weapon smuggling tunnels? What collective punishment? Erecting barriers to try to stop terrorists from entering it's territory? Every time Israel tries to defend it's people and meets with some success the cry goes out "Damned jew, Fight fair!" Every time a palestinian guns down a mother and her daughters we are told that we must be understanding toward the poor oppressed people.

RPGs are notoriously inaccurate against moving targets in the hands of untrained and poorly trained fighters. Want proof? Go to cambodia. On some of their military bases you can shoot at a cow with an RPG 7 for $100 american/round. I'll bet you miss. A moving tank in a crowded street is much harder to hit than a stationary cow. Also the kid is clearly _not_ a civillian. He's fighting a delaying action against an enemy force.
it is a tank, and he IS a civilian, a rock is not a weapon, especially when thrown against a tank

What terror tactics? Blowing up bomb factories? Bombing weapon smuggling tunnels? What collective punishment? Erecting barriers to try to stop terrorists from entering it's territory? Every time Israel tries to defend it's people and meets with some success the cry goes out "Damned jew, Fight fair!" Every time a palestinian guns down a mother and her daughters we are told that we must be understanding toward the poor oppressed people.

Imposing long curfews on the entire population, blockading off hospitals, snipering children, shooting at ambulances, shooting at protestors. When Isreal uses terrorist actions it always gets called defensive action. If that is so, then perhaps the rpging of the tank is a defensive action aswell then?

it is a tank, and he IS a civilian, a rock is not a weapon, especially when thrown against a tank
Bullshit. He's not a civillian unless he stands aside or runs away. A rock may not be an effective weapon, but throwing it is an aggressive act. He's intentionaly trying to delay the tank so it can be destroyed or so that his fellow combatants can retreat and regroup.

Imposing long curfews on the entire population, blockading off hospitals, snipering children, shooting at ambulances, shooting at protestors. When Isreal uses terrorist actions it always gets called defensive action. If that is so, then perhaps the rpging of the tank is a defensive action aswell then?
Curfews to prevent terrorists from infiltrating into Israel under cover of darkness are defensive in nature. Shooting at "children" who throw rocks and molotov cocktails at foot soldiers and police is a defensive act. Shooting at ambulances that take advantage of their immunity to move troops and weapons is a defensive act. Killing a bus load of civilians is _not_ defensive. Gunning down families on their way to vote is _not_ defensive. See the difference?

Curfews to prevent terrorists from infiltrating into Israel under cover of darkness are defensive in nature. Shooting at "children" who throw rocks and molotov cocktails at foot soldiers and police is a defensive act. Shooting at ambulances that take advantage of their immunity to move troops and weapons is a defensive act. Killing a bus load of civilians is _not_ defensive. Gunning down families on their way to vote is _not_ defensive. See the difference?
no, gunning down people throwing rocks is NOT defensive, they are ROCKS YOU UGH, simpleton

Bullshit. He's not a civillian unless he stands aside or runs away. A rock may not be an effective weapon, but throwing it is an aggressive act. He's intentionaly trying to delay the tank so it can be destroyed or so that his fellow combatants can retreat and regroup.
1) throwing a rock may be an aggressive act, but it is not a weapon thus he is STILL a civilian UNTIL PROVEN OTHERWISE

2) come on over to reality, jsut because a CHILD is throwing rocks that does not mean they are stalling for other combatants

no, gunning down people throwing rocks is NOT defensive, they are ROCKS YOU UGH, simpleton
Rocks can injure or kill a man. If someone was throwing a rock at my face I would shoot him rather than risk losing an eye or having my skull cracked. If you disagree let someone throw a rock at your head and see how you feel about it afterward. I was once hit by a thrown rock and I bled profusely and had a concussion.

1) throwing a rock may be an aggressive act, but it is not a weapon thus he is STILL a civilian UNTIL PROVEN OTHERWISE

2) come on over to reality, jsut because a CHILD is throwing rocks that does not mean they are stalling for other combatants
How does the tank driver know whether he is being set up for an ambush or is just being confronted by a half-wit child? He has to act as if he is being attacked. BTW soldiers don't need to ask for proof before shooting someone during a conflict. They only need to see someone taking aggressive action against them.

How does the tank driver know whether he is being set up for an ambush or is just being confronted by a half-wit child? He has to act as if he is being attacked. BTW soldiers don't need to ask for proof before shooting someone during a conflict. They only need to see someone taking aggressive action against them.

Depends what is meant by "aggressive action". How about "aggressive action that has any chance of being an actual threat, in and of itself, to people in a tank"? Even the guy poking his head up to man the machine gun is wearing a helmet and a flak jacket.

Depends what is meant by "aggressive action". How about "aggressive action that has any chance of being an actual threat, in and of itself, to people in a tank"? Even the guy poking his head up to man the machine gun is wearing a helmet and a flak jacket.
If the tank stops for the kid it may get shot at with an RPG. The kid should step out of the way or he gets run over. This is common sense. Unfortunately you don't expect palestinians to use common sense. Any harm that comes to them is _clearly_ the result of the evil zionist-crusader alliance.

If the tank stops for the kid it may get shot at with an RPG. The kid should step out of the way or he gets run over. This is common sense. Unfortunately you don't expect palestinians to use common sense. Any harm that comes to them is _clearly_ the result of the evil zionist-crusader alliance.

First of all, nothing is that clear in this situation.

Secondly, you were talking about shooting kids who throw rocks, not running over kids who step in front of moving vehicles.

First of all, nothing is that clear in this situation.

Secondly, you were talking about shooting kids who throw rocks, not running over kids who step in front of moving vehicles.
Look further up the thread. This rock throwing discussion started when someone complained about israeli tanks running over kids throwing rocks at them. Kids getting shot when throwing rocks at soldiers and police came later in the thread. The "clearly" comment was pure sarcasm.

If the tank stops for the kid it may get shot at with an RPG. The kid should step out of the way or he gets run over. This is common sense. Unfortunately you don't expect palestinians to use common sense. Any harm that comes to them is _clearly_ the result of the evil zionist-crusader alliance.
i doubt you are using a sweeping brush accidently, your disdain for the entirity of palistinians is obvious

i doubt you are using a sweeping brush accidently, your disdain for the entirity of palistinians is obvious
Doubt whatever you want pal. I only hate palestinian terrorists and the idiots who support them regardless of the attrocities they commit. Any palestinians who want to live in peace are ok with me. It's unfortunate that you never hear from the few moderate palestinians. Probably because they are so rare.

It's funny how whenever I bring up attrocities commited by palestinian terrorists so many people try to excuse their actions by pointing out collateral damage caused by Israeli defense, and the fact that Israeli settlements are on palestinian land. How does that excuse the _intentional_ murder of women and children? Is palestinian land worth more than Jewish lives?

It's funny how whenever I bring up attrocities commited by palestinian terrorists so many people try to excuse their actions by pointing out collateral damage caused by Israeli defense, and the fact that Israeli settlements are on palestinian land. How does that excuse the _intentional_ murder of women and children? Is palestinian land worth more than Jewish lives?

Who here has been trying to justify suicide/homicide bombings?

Some points.

1. If the palestinians had tanks and fighter jets they wouldn't be using suicide bombings.

2. Hamas and Islamic Jihad, the original instigators of this tactic were originally tiny rump organisations- the mass of the palestinian political movement was secular. It is Israeli policies that has given them this support. Equally, if it wasn't for the constant attacks on him by Israel, that corrupt old buffoon Arafat would have been overthrown by his own people years ago.

3. The Israeli policy of also targetting political leaders, in particular those who are good with the media, has, over the years taken out a lot of those selfsame moderates that you (Joey P) claim to support.

4. If you're going to talk about terrorism, you need to remember that the last Israeli prime minister to be assassinated was not killed by palestinians but by an Israeli far right member with links to Mossad.

The thing I am particuarly sick of is the pretence that the right-Zionists speak for all Jews. You don't speak for me or thousands like me. I believe their is hope. But not from right wing bullies like Sharon (who's attempts to scare French Jews into moving to Israel by exaggarating the level of anti-semitism there were frankly disgusting). Not from Neo-fascists like the settlers. And certainly not from European and US armchair right-Zionists, who call for the continuation of the war, with the attendent loss of lives on both sides, secure in the knowledge that they won't be the ones to suffer. The hope lies with the Israeli Peace Movement. And with those brave men and women in Israel currently refusing to serve in the occupied terroritys. Those are the real Jewish heroes.

It's funny how whenever I bring up attrocities commited by palestinian terrorists so many people try to excuse their actions by pointing out collateral damage caused by Israeli defense, and the fact that Israeli settlements are on palestinian land. How does that excuse the _intentional_ murder of women and children? Is palestinian land worth more than Jewish lives?
1) YOU DONT FIRE MISSILES INTO A CROWD OF PEOPLE TO KILL A SINGLE PERSON
2) and israeli settlements ARE on palestinian land, the israelis re there illegally, but you refuse to support their removal

how do you excuse the uncaring tactics of the israeli military that costs colleteral lives when it doesnt have to?

Both sides are committing extreme atrocities and terrorist actions..

It's just the Israel's are doing it on a much, much larger scale..

I'll tell you something, Joey P with the demented logic, the Palestinians do not lack common sense.. you do..

Bring America to the aid of the Palestinians, give Hamas and Islamic Jihad Apaches and F-16Is and F-15Is and Jericho 2 nuclear missile systems.. if you do that, they would not resort to 'suicide' bombings..

Suicide bombings happen to be the only method available to them, since they have no homes (considering the rate at which their homes are being destroyed), and no resources with which to manufacture home-made explosives AND WAYS TO PROPEL SUCH EXPLOSIVES..

While the Israelis use high explosives, carried by air units and advanced tanks, the Palestinians use very very crude explosives, carried by a much less effecient machine, the human body..

Again, YOU provide the resources, and they won't waste any more of their members' lives..

Also, there is no question that Israel does not represent the views of every Jew out there.. There are many jews (an example can be found on this thread) that do not support Israel's blatant attacks..

And, if you want to stop children from throwing rocks at the tanks, give them anti-tank missiles, or better yet, M1A2 Abrams tanks with Depleted Uranium shells.. they won't be standing in front of any Merkavas any more, now would they?

And the barrier.. don't even attempt to justify its erection. The barrier is an act of war.. it is a land grab..

I'm not saying Israel shouldn't construct it.. by all means, construct it... ON THE DAMN GREEN BELT!!..

That doesn't guarantee security to settlers.. well.. tough.. they shouldn't be there anyway..

Both sides are committing extreme atrocities and terrorist actions..

It's just the Israel's are doing it on a much, much larger scale..

I'll tell you something, Joey P with the demented logic, the Palestinians do not lack common sense.. you do..

Bring America to the aid of the Palestinians, give Hamas and Islamic Jihad Apaches and F-16Is and F-15Is and Jericho 2 nuclear missile systems.. if you do that, they would not resort to 'suicide' bombings..

Suicide bombings happen to be the only method available to them, since they have no homes (considering the rate at which their homes are being destroyed), and no resources with which to manufacture home-made explosives AND WAYS TO PROPEL SUCH EXPLOSIVES..

While the Israelis use high explosives, carried by air units and advanced tanks, the Palestinians use very very crude explosives, carried by a much less effecient machine, the human body..

Again, YOU provide the resources, and they won't waste any more of their members' lives..

Also, there is no question that Israel does not represent the views of every Jew out there.. There are many jews (an example can be found on this thread) that do not support Israel's blatant attacks..

And, if you want to stop children from throwing rocks at the tanks, give them anti-tank missiles, or better yet, M1A2 Abrams tanks with Depleted Uranium shells.. they won't be standing in front of any Merkavas any more, now would they?

And the barrier.. don't even attempt to justify its erection. The barrier is an act of war.. it is a land grab..

I'm not saying Israel shouldn't construct it.. by all means, construct it... ON THE DAMN GREEN BELT!!..

That doesn't guarantee security to settlers.. well.. tough.. they shouldn't be there anyway..
If the palestinians had attack helicopters and tanks they would instantly stop intentionally targeting civillians? Suicide bombs can be used against military and government targets as well as bus loads of regualr people. The palestinians _choose_ to target innocents.
I also never said I support the illegal settlements. I don't support them. Still, I have greater contempt for the palestinian murderers and those who support them.

1) YOU DONT FIRE MISSILES INTO A CROWD OF PEOPLE TO KILL A SINGLE PERSON
2) and israeli settlements ARE on palestinian land, the israelis re there illegally, but you refuse to support their removal

how do you excuse the uncaring tactics of the israeli military that costs colleteral lives when it doesnt have to?
1 yes you do if killing him is likely to save the lives of many of your people.
2 I never said I approve of the settlements. I just disapprove of murdering innocents as a method of trying to remove them.

Sure, they are opressed, but their actions make it impossible for me to be sympathetic toward them. When India wanted freedom from the British empire, Ghandi showed them how to do it peacefully. India is a well respected nation now. When Blacks in the USA were horribly opressed Dr. Martin Luther King, Malcom X and others led the fight for equality (in most cases through peaceful means) When the people of Russia had had enough of the czar and wanted some stake in their government, they fought against the military and the oppressors to take their nation. These are respectable actions (although I don't agree with communism).
Palestinians seem to think blowing up a bus full of school children, and shooting a family of four makes them heroes. Meanwhile, the Israelis try to target only the terrorists, and reduce civilian casualties in the Palestinian territioris.
India had Armed resistance
Malcolm X advocated violence, only near the very end did he advocate peace and you see what that got him.
Doctor King(who was not a doctor or a PhD by the way nor was his name Martin Luther King Jr, nor was his Father's Name Martin Luther King)
Doctor King was an exception to the Civil rights movement at the time.
The oppressed will always resist with violence, do you think that the Palestinians dont have peacful resistance?
That fact is that news services dont give much time to peacful palestinian resistance because it isnt as exciting as "Martyrs".

Some points.

1. If the palestinians had tanks and fighter jets they wouldn't be using suicide bombings.

2. Hamas and Islamic Jihad, the original instigators of this tactic were originally tiny rump organisations- the mass of the palestinian political movement was secular. It is Israeli policies that has given them this support. Equally, if it wasn't for the constant attacks on him by Israel, that corrupt old buffoon Arafat would have been overthrown by his own people years ago.

3. The Israeli policy of also targetting political leaders, in particular those who are good with the media, has, over the years taken out a lot of those selfsame moderates that you (Joey P) claim to support.

4. If you're going to talk about terrorism, you need to remember that the last Israeli prime minister to be assassinated was not killed by palestinians but by an Israeli far right member with links to Mossad.

The thing I am particuarly sick of is the pretence that the right-Zionists speak for all Jews. You don't speak for me or thousands like me. I believe their is hope. But not from right wing bullies like Sharon (who's attempts to scare French Jews into moving to Israel by exaggarating the level of anti-semitism there were frankly disgusting). Not from Neo-fascists like the settlers. And certainly not from European and US armchair right-Zionists, who call for the continuation of the war, with the attendent loss of lives on both sides, secure in the knowledge that they won't be the ones to suffer. The hope lies with the Israeli Peace Movement. And with those brave men and women in Israel currently refusing to serve in the occupied terroritys. Those are the real Jewish heroes.
I don't claim to speak for jews. I speak for myself. I'm not jewish, in fact I'm an American Atheist of Italian descent. I would like to see an end to the war, but if it won't end, I would like to see an end to the _intentional_ killing of civillians. The palestinians have been guilty of this. The jews have targeted terrorists, and ended up inadvertantly killing civillians who were too close.

A hellfire missile hits a car loaded with terrorists. some civilians on the street are injured. A guy gets on a bus with a bomb, and kills a couple dozen kids and working people. Yeah, those two are moraly equivalent.


How about when Israeli soldiers or tanks fire their weapons at any movement and night and over the years kill hundreds of children who were outside for various reasons.

The one that comes to mind was a young boy out to get some candy, a round from a tanks machine gun took his head off.

Another Israeli tank fired its main gun into a tent at a refugee camp.

Let's not forget Jenin, they wouldn't allowed international inspection teams there. Wonder why?

I don't claim to speak for jews. I speak for myself. I'm not jewish, in fact I'm an American Atheist of Italian descent. I would like to see an end to the war, but if it won't end, I would like to see an end to the _intentional_ killing of civillians. The palestinians have been guilty of this. The jews have targeted terrorists, and ended up inadvertantly killing civillians who were too close.
They seem to "inadvertantly" kill a lot of civilians on a daily basis, seems like someone sold you a line of ****.

I don't claim to speak for jews. I speak for myself. I'm not jewish, in fact I'm an American Atheist of Italian descent. I would like to see an end to the war, but if it won't end, I would like to see an end to the _intentional_ killing of civillians. The palestinians have been guilty of this. The jews have targeted terrorists, and ended up inadvertantly killing civillians who were too close.If you're not claiming to speak for Jews kindly start differentiating between the Jewish people as a whole, the population of Israel and the policies of Ariel Sharon's goverment.

1 yes you do if killing him is likely to save the lives of many of your people.
2 I never said I approve of the settlements. I just disapprove of murdering innocents as a method of trying to remove them.
1) we have these things called rifles, depending which type you use, they are accurate up to several hundred meters. they fire a single, projectile, non explosive round, can be piercing, instant kill shot when used by a trained professional, 0 collateral damage

2) YOU ARE THE ONE TALKING ABOUT MURDER NOT ME, you advocate the murder of the plaestinians for THROWING ROCKS, yet you refuse to just remove israelis from illegal settlements, THEY ARNT GOING TO KILL ANYONE, in the history of rounding up anyone fro removal from their land the only people that died are thsoe that resisted violently, whetehr they died later is irrelevant, and it is traditionally used to mvoe enemies oif the capturing force. all israel has to do is move its OWN PEOPLE out of ILLEGAL SETTLEMENT and back to ISRAELI LAND

1) we have these things called rifle, depending the type you use they are accurate up to several hundred meters, they fire a single, projectile, non explosive round, can be piercing, instant kill shot used by a trained professional, 0 collateral damage

2) YOU ARE THE ONE TALKING ABOUT MURDER NOT ME, you advocate the murder of the plaestinians for THROWING ROCKS, yet you refuse to just remove israelis from illegal settlements, THEY ARNT GOING TO KILL ANYONE, in the history of rounding up anyone fro removal from their land the only people that died are thsoe that resisted violently, whetehr they died later is irrelevant, and it is traditionally used to mvoe enemies oif the capturing force. all israel has to do is move its OWN PEOPLE out of ILLEGAL SETTLEMENT and back to ISRAELI LAND



Wow, you're either drunk or tired. Go to sleep!

Except that nine times out of ten there were no terrorists in the car and the Israelis just killed many innocent people


This is a pretty accurate statement. I mean the general idea, innocents die frequently. But not "nine out of ten". I'd say for every terrorist they kill, they kill at least 1-2 people who shouldn't have been killed. At least.

The jews have targeted terrorists, and ended up inadvertantly killing civillians who were too close.

the jews (meaning the idf) have shot the jews (meaning gil na’amati, for example) for acting against the "security fence" being built by the jews (ariel sharon).

stop conflating entire populations with actions of individuals or smaller distinct groups.

do any of you gits have actual facts, or are we all in the business of making up statistics.

'cause you know, more than 78% of all statistics are false, but here on nationstates forums, that number jumps 21.999% up.

Curfews to prevent terrorists from infiltrating into Israel under cover of darkness are defensive in nature. Shooting at "children" who throw rocks and molotov cocktails at foot soldiers and police is a defensive act. Shooting at ambulances that take advantage of their immunity to move troops and weapons is a defensive act. Killing a bus load of civilians is _not_ defensive. Gunning down families on their way to vote is _not_ defensive. See the difference?

No, not really, just aload of attrocities commited by both sides with you only justifiying Isreali action with 'for instances'. Stopping pregnant mothers on the way to hospital is_not_defensive either. Stopping children from getting to school is_not_defensive. Shooting a child below ten because he pinned a flag to a barrier is_not_defensive.

do any of you gits have actual facts, or are we all in the business of making up statistics.

'cause you know, more than 78% of all statistics are false, but here on nationstates forums, that number jumps 21.999% up.

Here's some stats.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

The whole point is that ISRAEL should do the right thing and evacuate their people from territory that it has AGREED is Palestinian.

And so what if they leave buildings behind? The buildings we are talking about are Illegal settlement buildings -- meaning buildings people put up against Israel's treaties. If private parties want to do that, then they SHOULD have to forfeit them.

You can't just come onto my property and build a pool in my backyard -- and if you do, I've every right to have you arrested, have a restraining order sworn out against you to keep you from criminally trespassing again and guess what? you don't get the pool back. ;)

I agree with many writers that both sites haven't really "behaved themselves". But I'm just curious to ask you people one simple quoestion? Do you think that Israel would have occupied those Palestinian parts unless U.S. hadn't (still does, as you all know) given all the military and economic help it has? And using their veto rights in every statement against Israel's wrong-doings?

And if the tank stops for the kid it takes an RPG round in the turet. Those soldiers want to live to see their families again. If the kid is dumb enough to stand in front of a tank and throw rocks, humanity is probably better off without him in the gene pool. People need to use common sense, and take responsibility for their actions.

You are incredibly inhuman person. Hopefully you'll never have any children of your own.

Nope, the israelis aren't doing something as suicidal as standing in front of a tank armed with a rock. What do those kids expect is going to happen?
Well, what happened on the Tiananmen square? Was it a bad thing? Was it a necessary thing? How China's democracy has increased after that? When you're heavily pursued you have to act heavily.
If your ancestors would have been happy in their current position in Europe you would still be a sheep farmer in Italy (not meaning to mock anyone in Italy, I'm very fond of the country and it's habitants).

I also never said I would be stupid enough to take on a tank with a rock. I would use appropriate weapons, even if they were just simple home-made shaped charges.
and you would be a terrorist...

A very easy answer to the original question is that not letting the Israelian create any more goodwill for Bin Ladin by their opresion of the palestian and the killing of civilian palestian. Because maybee many in the west don't care but I bet you many muslim cares. And a small minority of muslims (and that is enough) can by seing the oppresion of the palestian by the American supported Israel thinking that joining Bin Ladin isn't such a bad idea especially if there are poor and blame USA for their situation (Note only a partly explanition to terrorism not a justifacation for it)

Defined by what? What legality? Israel's neighbors have been trying for 60 years to wipe them off the face of the earth. If they have lost territory in the process, well, to the victor goes the spoils. Most of the nations of this world are defined by boundaries won through war.
Just don't you know anything? Israel's boundaries are very clearly defined by the UN in the 60's and everyone were happy at the time. Only after that Israel has invaded Palestinian land and never left. It's amazing how long palestinians stood for this kind of arrogance. There are thousands of Israelis living on Palestinian territory and every single one of them has known that the land is not part of Israel, but illegally invaded areas. What's their excuse?

When Blacks in the USA were horribly opressed Dr. Martin Luther King, Malcom X and others led the fight for equality (in most cases through peaceful means)

Actually, most of them were not striving for equality, but for black supremacy: Malcolm X, Stokely Carmichael, Leroi Jones, Huey Newton, Bobby Seale, Elijah Mohammed, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Dick Gregory, Eldridge Cleaver, and other ultra-racists. And most of the members of the civil rights movement did use violence. MLK even said himself that his goal was to provoke the whites to use violence, so blacks would be attacked, everyone would sympathize, and then he could get whatever legislation he wanted passed.

The Jews (IDF) have targetted terrorists, and civilians are part of the resulting collateral damage.. correct?

Same philosophy the American military uses, heh..

During the past 57 years, no nation has been more harshly condemned by the world, no nation has seen so many UN resolutions critical of its actions, no nation has seeked the systematic extermination of an entire race, no nation has received as much funding by the USA, no nation has widely abused an unfortunate part of its race's history, no nation has created nukes yet refused to declare their existence, no nation has displaced more people, no nation has been involved in successive and very intense raids and land-grabs, no nation has vowed that, if attacked, it would take down the world with it.. more than Israel..

Those are facts.. you can look them up yourself.. in any source..

If you're not claiming to speak for Jews kindly start differentiating between the Jewish people as a whole, the population of Israel and the policies of Ariel Sharon's goverment.

If Joey P were capable of distinguishing between groups and individuals, this thread would probably not exist in the form that it does. Instead it would probably mostly consist of people who agree that the palestinian terrorist groups should be regarded by their neighbours as enemies who are keeping them from autonomy... plus a few of the usual anti-judaic trolls with new usernames and one- or two-digit post counts.

I agree with many writers that both sites haven't really "behaved themselves". But I'm just curious to ask you people one simple quoestion? Do you think that Israel would have occupied those Palestinian parts unless U.S. hadn't (still does, as you all know) given all the military and economic help it has? And using their veto rights in every statement against Israel's wrong-doings?

Possibly not. Let me ask you this:

Do you think that that Israel would have occupied those lands if the people dwelling in those lands had not massed troops upon thise lands on Israel's border while declaring their intent to wage a genocidal war? And do you think that Israel would have needed a war for independence if their neighbours, who had been living alongside them for centuries under the Ottomons in the lands at question, had been willing to divide the land fairly with their fellow inhabitants even when it meant continuing to live next to Jews?

You are incredibly inhuman person. Hopefully you'll never have any children of your own.

I really doubt that Joey P is so inhumane as to teach his children that they are assured a place in Heaven if they die trying to stop a tank with their bodies. BTW the "martyrdom" of palistinian children is as night to day when compared to such things as what happened at Tienimmen Square.

I also never said I would be stupid enough to take on a tank with a rock. I would use appropriate weapons, even if they were just simple home-made shaped charges.and you would be a terrorist...

Yeah... if it was a non-combatant tank full of civilians maybe... :rolleyes:

I really doubt that Joey P is so inhumane as to teach his children that they are assured a place in Heaven if they die trying to stop a tank with their bodies. BTW the "martyrdom" of palistinian children is as night to day when compared to such things as what happened at Tienimmen Square.
nah, he'll jsut teach him that whole races of people should be judged byby the actions of the few and treated as you would treat those few, aka intolerance

I have to admit a slight bias here, as I was brought up Jewish. I most also say that I don't know as much about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict as I'd like. I think this is partly due to the fact that the available information on it is very much biased and often flat-out contradictory.

One thing I have to ask is why the Palestinians insist on that particular area. They have their own complete country already. From what I know, the Jews have referred to that area as their spiritual home for far longer than Islam or many of the countries around Israel have existed. What makes that particular area so special to the Palestinians? I think I'm missing something here. I mean, I know it was their homes and that would be devastating at first, but I'm guessing it's really the principle of the thing that, for lack of a better term, pisses them off. Am I wrong?

Just don't you know anything? Israel's boundaries are very clearly defined by the UN in the 60's and everyone were happy at the time. Only after that Israel has invaded Palestinian land and never left. It's amazing how long palestinians stood for this kind of arrogance. There are thousands of Israelis living on Palestinian territory and every single one of them has known that the land is not part of Israel, but illegally invaded areas. What's their excuse?

Israel did not start the Six Day War. Troops were massed on their borders, their ports were blockaded, and missiles were being fired into their towns while the leaders of aggressive arab states met to declare openly that they were going to push the Jews "into the sea". Israel had every right to occupy whatever lands they were able to take for security purposes or to annex them outright.

The settlers, like Sharon, are criminals. They did not have the right to occupy lands for security purposes and at the same time act as if they had annexed them. However were it not for the non-stop use of terrorism by certain palestinian groups, America would not support Israel's occupation the way that they do and most Israelis would not either.

I have to admit a slight bias here, as I was brought up Jewish. I most also say that I don't know as much about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict as I'd like. I think this is partly due to the fact that the available information on it is very much biased and often flat-out contradictory.

One thing I have to ask is why the Palestinians insist on that particular area. They have their own complete country already. From what I know, the Jews have referred to that area as their spiritual home for far longer than Islam or many of the countries around Israel have existed. What makes that particular area so special to the Palestinians? I think I'm missing something here. I mean, I know it was their homes and that would be devastating at first, but I'm guessing it's really the principle of the thing that, for lack of a better term, pisses them off. Am I wrong?


The only "complete country" that they have is the occupied territories in question. Most pro-Israel people will go to great lengths to point out that Palestine never was a country. Prior to the Six Day War most of those people's territory was a part of Jordan, and prior to the War of Independence many of them lived in what was to become Israel. Also as a Jew you should be aware that most Muslims consider G-d's promises to Abraham to have passed from the rebellious children of Isaac and Jacob to themselves. Also their traditions do not allow for non-Muslims to rule any land that has previously been ruled by Muslims, or any building other than a mosque to stand on any land that has ever held a mosque. And finally, as you may have heard, the Dome of the Rock, which sits where the Temple of Solomon should be, is regarded as the third holiest site in Islam, believed to be the place where Abraham was prepared to sacrifice Ishmael, not Isaac.

The settlers, like Sharon, are criminals. They did not have the right to occupy lands for security purposes and at the same time act as if they had annexed them. However were it not for the non-stop use of terrorism by certain palestinian groups, America would not support Israel's occupation the way that they do and most Israelis would not either.

And how, pray tell, are they going to fight and resist the genocidal actions of the Israeli government without resorting to such unfortunate tactics??

I dare you to innovate new methods for them to project weapons onto Israel as Israel is doing onto them..

And don't give me the "they shouldn't resort to fighting and should lock themselves up in their homes, or stand by as tanks roll through their cities" bullcrap.. no offense, but that is unacceptable..

Because it would be to you if you were in their position.. It's funny how people who have no idea of the conflict's history or significance come here and rant about justice and terrorism.. not you.. good heavens no.. I'm talking about other characters in this discussion.

And how, pray tell, are they going to fight and resist the genocidal actions of the Israeli government without resorting to such unfortunate tactics??

I dare you to innovate new methods for them to project weapons onto Israel as Israel is doing onto them..

And don't give me the "they shouldn't resort to fighting and should lock themselves up in their homes, or stand by as tanks roll through their cities" bullcrap.. no offense, but that is unacceptable..

Because it would be to you if you were in their position.. It's funny how people who have no idea of the conflict's history or significance come here and rant about justice and terrorism.. not you.. good heavens no.. I'm talking about other characters in this discussion.

1, 2 & 3: Oh here's a novel idea: don't engage in terrorist attacks, and turn any that do in to the police. Note that this is not a "new method for them to project weapons into Israel as Israel is doing to them". It is, rather, rejecting the same old method that they have been doing for decades... you know, the one that prevokes Israel's use of weapons against them.

If you stand in a crowd and throw rocks at a guy with a machine gun, the only "new method" I would offer you is to stop doing that. It has long been Israel's position that terrorist acts will lead to reprisals by the I.D.F. Guess what? No attacks ---> no reprisals.

4: I wouldn't have thought you were talking about me, or if you were I would have to tell you to go back and reread my posts. And please do not say that I would blow up children if my land were occupied by a foreign power, whether we had started it or not.

Perhaps it can interest you guys.

Israel proclaims that it does not has apartheid for it's Arrab citizens with the Israel nationality.
Just saw on the BBC that the Arrab population of Israel is 20% (take care IN ISRAEL) and they receive only 5% of the education budget :rolleyes: .
It is a Appartheid regime (with the consequenses) with a wall that is placed sometimes 18 km. deep in palestinian territory*.

(*the ones formed by the 1968 border, the Oslo agreements and the roadmap to peace that came from their best allie, the US)



Of the record but in 1948 more then 60% of the people that lived in what is now Israel where Arrab. Most of them where chased out of their house or killed in may 1948 (remember Jaffa in witch 95% of the Araabs where deplaced and lots of the families killed).

It is nice to see that the EU forced Israel to label it's EU exports. Now the EU consumer can see if the product really comes from Israel (wich has a special tax benefit for it's EU exports) or from stolen land like the Gollan (wine like "Yarden") and other zones that are occupied by colonists).Wich don't get the same tarrifs :p . Hope those bearded fascist are sooner then late thrown out there by their own boss: Ariel.

1, 2 & 3: Oh here's a novel idea: don't engage in terrorist attacks, and turn any that do in to the police. Note that this is not a "new method for them to project weapons into Israel as Israel is doing to them". It is, rather, rejecting the same old method that they have been doing for decades... you know, the one that prevokes Israel's use of weapons against them.

If you stand in a crowd and throw rocks at a guy with a machine gun, the only "new method" I would offer you is to stop doing that. It has long been Israel's position that terrorist acts will lead to reprisals by the I.D.F. Guess what? No attacks ---> no reprisals.



See.. that's exactly the reply I expected..

Well.. guess what.. Israel is using the "terrorist attacks" as an alibi to exterminate the Palestinian population.. Even if the intifada stopped.. even if the "terrorists" were completely decimated.. there will be no end in sight for Israel's aggression against all opposing parties, including Western journalists and peace activists.

And read what Mr. Fawlty Towers said ^^

nah, he'll jsut teach him that whole races of people should be judged byby the actions of the few and treated as you would treat those few, aka intolerance

Indeed, but that's just the root portion of the evil shit certain so-called
"Muslims" shovel into their children's heads. When they make tank roadblocks out of their kids they win hands down in the inhuman department.

OK ok because I'm feeling just so helpful:

1) Stop attacking Israel, go to your jobs, invest your money, build your economy, be at peace tolerating no terrorists among you, and then petition Israel, the U.S.A. and the U.N. to move Israel out of its occupying position, since the rationale of the I.D.F.'s presence there would no longer exist.

2) insist that the settlements are part of Palestine, and that any settlers who remain there are to abide by Palestinian law and are to become Palestinian citizens or else be subject to removal if the Palestinian government deems it appropriate.

3) if when your demands in part (2) are resisted, protest with entirely peaceful means and be willing to make comprimises. Here is one that I suggest: a widespread two-nation system of dual citizenship passports and the establishment either of international zones or dual-soevereignty zones. This latter element would be very useful in terms of establishing rights to the holy sites in previously annexed areas of such as Jerusalem.

4) continue to live peacefully beside your jewish neighbours in your repective parts of your shared anscestoral lands, just as your arab neighbours did with eachother after the Ottomons' rule ended.

1) Stop attacking Israel, go to your jobs, invest your money, build your economy, be at peace tolerating no terrorists among you, and then petition Israel, the U.S.A. and the U.N. to move Israel out of its occupying position, since the rationale of the I.D.F.'s presence there would no longer exist.

Won't happen.. Israel's incursions will instigate more violence and more hatred.. no way Israel would give the Palestinians time to flourish.

2) insist that the settlements are part of Palestine, and that any settlers who remain there are to abide by Palestinian law and are to become Palestinian citizens or else be subject to removal if the Palestinian government deems it appropriate.

Bahahahaha... you would make a good stand-up comedian, with all these jokes..

3) if when your demands in part (2) are resisted, protest with entirely peaceful means and be willing to make comprimises. Here is one that I suggest: a widespread two-nation system of dual citizenship passports and the establishment either of international zones or dual-soevereignty zones. This latter element would be very useful in terms of establishing rights to the holy sites in previously annexed areas of such as Jerusalem.

Simply won't happen.. That idea has been proposed by the UN several times, and has always been rejected by both parties

4) continue to live peacefully beside your jewish neighbours in your repective parts of your shared anscestoral lands, just as your arab neighbours did with eachother after the Ottomons' rule ended.

Since 1, 2, and 3 will never occur.. 4 is as worthless as dog waste.


And don't even start with the "Palestinians=inhumane" argument.. Else I'll look up every violation of human rights Israel has ever committed, and believe me, the list will be long.. and scary..

See.. that's exactly the reply I expected..

Well.. guess what.. Israel is using the "terrorist attacks" as an alibi to exterminate the Palestinian population.. Even if the intifada stopped.. even if the "terrorists" were completely decimated.. there will be no end in sight for Israel's aggression against all opposing parties, including Western journalists and peace activists.

And read what Mr. Fawlty Towers said ^^

Were you there, Greenmanbry? I was. There were no I.D.F. attacks prior to october 2000 other than targetted military strikes on terrorist leaders with remarkably low (usually zero or only injuries) levels of civilian casualties. During this time and before these military-on-terrorist assassinations there were still bombings and attempts, although to a "peacetime" extent. What do you have to validate your claim that I.D.F. attacks would continue if terrorism stopped altogether? Or if Palestinians could be counted on to report and punish terrorists?

And read what I said: Sharon and the settlers are criminals, and Sharon instigated the current intifada. A word to the hopefully wise: don't try to pidgeon hole me into one side or the other. You defend terrorist tactics because of the overkill of the I.D.F. during this conflict. I am telling you that that simply does not work as a justification, because the terrorist attacks are what provokes the I.D.F.'s actions. And that is all I am saying, so don't try to graft the full Joey P position onto me, please.

Won't happen.. Israel's incursions will instigate more violence and more hatred.. no way Israel would give the Palestinians time to flourish.



Bahahahaha... you would make a good stand-up comedian, with all these jokes..



Simply won't happen.. That idea has been proposed by the UN several times, and has always been rejected by both parties



Since 1, 2, and 3 will never occur.. 4 is as worthless as dog waste.


And don't even start with the "Palestinians=inhumane" argument.. Else I'll look up every violation of human rights Israel has ever committed, and believe me, the list will be long.. and scary..

Since we have never lived in a world in which a lot of Palestinians have not supported terrorism to utterly destroy Israel, and in which most of the rest have not been willing to keep silent about the terrorists, and in which those that do report the terrorists do not almost always end up dead, your ideas about what Israel would do or would have done in such a world are totally meaningless. Come up woth a real argument to support those ideas if you can, but otherwise don't bother posting them because I doubt I will be replying to them.

And don't try to pin the "Palestinians=inhumane" argument on me, because I never said that either. I will cop to holding the "people who turn their children into weapons=inhumane" argument, but apparently you think that Joey shrugging his shoulders at the waste of their children is more inhumane.

The wall is not a violent act. The Israeli military uses violence only on terrorists.

Hah. Are you really that naive as to think Israeli military target only "terrorists"?

http://www.amanjordan.org/campaigns/palestinian%20women/palwomen8.htm

check that page out. The people in those pictures certainly doesnt look like terrorists to me.

If it were true that Israel only targeted the terrorists, I would agree with your sentiments. However, it's clear that the current government in Israel does not. The fact that it is building a wall - much of it on occupied Palastian terriotory, in controvention of UN resolutions. The USA keeps refusing to back any of these resolutions or to stop funding Israel's government. Israel knows the USA won't do this, so knows it can get away with abusing the Palastian's human rights.
It is this that unfortunately attracts Palastians to terrorism. It's deplorable, but given the situation they are up against, you can see why it happens.

Exactly what human rights of the Palestinians are the Israelis abusing by building a wall?

When's the last time you've heard of Israeli terrorists? Even if it's a choice of the lesser of two evils, Israel is still more to be sympathized with.

See.. that's exactly the reply I expected..

Well.. guess what.. Israel is using the "terrorist attacks" as an alibi to exterminate the Palestinian population.. Even if the intifada stopped.. even if the "terrorists" were completely decimated.. there will be no end in sight for Israel's aggression against all opposing parties, including Western journalists and peace activists.

And read what Mr. Fawlty Towers said ^^

an alibi? are you insane? an alibi is, by definition, questionable. The IDF isn't pulling stories about terrorism out of their butthole. And if you were getting attacked by terrorists and you could do something about it, you probably would.

I have to admit a slight bias here, as I was brought up Jewish. I most also say that I don't know as much about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict as I'd like. I think this is partly due to the fact that the available information on it is very much biased and often flat-out contradictory.

True. The media does tend to support or lean towards one of the other countries favour. But thats just the media. Perfect balance does not exist anywhere.


One thing I have to ask is why the Palestinians insist on that particular area. They have their own complete country already. From what I know, the Jews have referred to that area as their spiritual home for far longer than Islam or many of the countries around Israel have existed. What makes that particular area so special to the Palestinians? I think I'm missing something here. I mean, I know it was their homes and that would be devastating at first, but I'm guessing it's really the principle of the thing that, for lack of a better term, pisses them off. Am I wrong?

Palestine is barely even a country. Its small and yet Israel has taken more Palestinian land to conquer and call their own. This action, in favour of the Israeli Jews left many Palestinians homeless. You have to understand that before the WW1 incident, Arab Muslims and Jews lived in peace and co-operation . It is only after British deported European Jews in mass quantities that problems starting brewing in that area.

Why Palestinians are pissed off :-
In 1947, the UN partitioned the land into Arab and Jewish states. The Arabs did not accept the partition and war broke out. The Jews won a decisive victory, expanded their state and created several hundred thousand Palestinian refugees. The Arab states refused to recognize Israel or make peace with it. Wars broke out in 1956, 1967, 1973 and 1982, and there were many terror raids and Israeli reprisals. Each side believes different versions of the same history. Each side views the conflict as wholly the fault of the other and expects an apology.

Click Here (http://www.mideastweb.org/nutshell.htm)

I love how powerless this makes the UN look:

Resolution 270: "...‘condemns’ Israel for air attacks on villages in southern Lebanon"
Resolution 279: "...‘demands’ withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon"
Resolution 280: "....‘condemns’ Israeli’s attacks against Lebanon"
Resolution 285: "...‘demands’ immediate Israeli withdrawal form Lebanon"
Resolution 313: "...‘demands’ that Israel stop attacks against Lebanon"
Resolution 316: "...‘condemns’ Israel for repeated attacks on Lebanon"
Resolution 332: "...‘condemns’ Israel’s repeated attacks against Lebanon"
Resolution 337: "...‘condemns’ Israel for violating Lebanon’s sovereignty"
Resolution 347: "...‘condemns’ Israeli attacks on Lebanon"
Resolution 425: "...‘calls’ on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon"
Resolution 427: "...‘calls’ on Israel to complete its withdrawal from Lebanon’
Resolution 450: "...‘calls’ on Israel to stop attacking Lebanon"
Resolution 467: "...‘strongly deplores’ Israel’s military intervention in Lebanon"
Resolution 498: "...‘calls’ on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon"
Resolution 501: "...‘calls’ on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon and withdraw its troops"
Resolution 509: "...‘demands’ that Israel withdraw its forces forthwith and unconditionally from Lebanon"
Resolution 587: "...‘takes note’ of previous calls on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon and urges all parties to withdraw"

Those are just the ones whining about Lebanon.

Exactly what human rights of the Palestinians are the Israelis abusing by building a wall?

When's the last time you've heard of Israeli terrorists? Even if it's a choice of the lesser of two evils, Israel is still more to be sympathized with.

The wall cuts across palestinian land and interferes with the normal course of their lives.

I heard about israeli terrorists in august of 2000, the most recent I can recall. I was sitting outdoors at a bar in Jerusalem with a right-wing friend of mine, who told me that, according to his zionist underground friends, "the war" would begin at the end of september/beginning of october of that year.

On september 29, 2000 Ariel Sharon, accompanied by an armed security force of about a hundred personel, went up onto the Temple Mount and paced off the circumferance of the Temple, whose rebuilding would require the destruction of the Dome of the Rock. Later Sharon said that it was due to an intelligence failure he was not aware that such a display would provoke rioting in the arab community.

When that rioting occured, certain members of the I.D.F. used sniper rifles to kill children, about a half a dozen on the first day, if I recall the local news correctly. There wrere no other casualties on the first day, only those arab children. Naturally the riots got worse and in turn the I.D.F.'s actions did as well, until the bombings became frequent and Sharon had a "ligitimate" reason to build his wall.

Israeli terrorists started this intifada to provoke arab terrorists to provide them with an excuse for war, and the arab terrorists were happy to oblige. Sharon's evil plan could not have worked if they were not so eager to die blowing up noncombatants.

The Intifada started before the visit to the Temple. It was fuel to the fire but it wasn't the spark.

The Intifada started before the visit to the Temple. It was fuel to the fire but it wasn't the spark.

Excuse me, but I was there, and you are wrong.

On Sept 28th, Palestinian rock throwers and Israeli soldiers clashed following the visit. They didn't snipe little kids, they fired rubber bullets and tear gas into the crowd. Most of the people who ended up injured were Israelis. That was the date that Sharon visited the Dome of the Rock :
http://www.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/meast/09/28/jerusalem.violence.02/

Even before that, though, violence was happening. For example, on the 27th, the bombing of a settlement in Gaza :
http://www.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/meast/09/27/israel.attack.ap/index.html

Going before that, you have incidents such as the August 16th shooting of a 70-year old Palestinian, and other various bouts of violence during the talks which were repeatedly breaking down and in shambles.

True, and for decades before, but the intifada did not start until the end of september. Their had been I.D.F. and terrorist activities all along, as I have previously said. Take it from someone who was there, things changed right after the Temple Mount scene.And take a look into the casualty news on september 30, october 1, october 2, etc. 2000.

Of course it changed it. It amplified it. It didn't start it.

the wall is a blatant land-grab meant to further disposses palestinians.

and the israeli military also uses violence on international observers and israelis who dare to oppose the unjust actions ordered by the israeli government.

The wall works. You can say whatever you want about it, but the number of terroracts in Israel eversince they started to build the wall seriously dropped.

The violence is a big subject. You see, the Israelis who oppose the military actions by standing in military bases hitting the soldiers don't leave them an awful lot of choice.
international observers- a nuisance. three years ago, 3 soldiers were kiddnapped while guarding the Lebanon border by Syrian terrorists. The international observers, well, OBSERVED. And did completely nothing. If that's what they're ordered to do, then dammit, who needs them here anyway?
These 3 soldiers were eventually returned to their homes, in coffins.

The wall cuts across palestinian land and interferes with the normal course of their lives.

I heard about israeli terrorists in august of 2000, the most recent I can recall. I was sitting outdoors at a bar in Jerusalem with a right-wing friend of mine, who told me that, according to his zionist underground friends, "the war" would begin at the end of september/beginning of october of that year.

On september 29, 2000 Ariel Sharon, accompanied by an armed security force of about a hundred personel, went up onto the Temple Mount and paced off the circumferance of the Temple, whose rebuilding would require the destruction of the Dome of the Rock. Later Sharon said that it was due to an intelligence failure he was not aware that such a display would provoke rioting in the arab community.

When that rioting occured, certain members of the I.D.F. used sniper rifles to kill children, about a half a dozen on the first day, if I recall the local news correctly. There wrere no other casualties on the first day, only those arab children. Naturally the riots got worse and in turn the I.D.F.'s actions did as well, until the bombings became frequent and Sharon had a "ligitimate" reason to build his wall.

Israeli terrorists started this intifada to provoke arab terrorists to provide them with an excuse for war, and the arab terrorists were happy to oblige. Sharon's evil plan could not have worked if they were not so eager to die blowing up noncombatants.
I simply don't beleive that israel intentionaly targeted kids with sniper rifles. Not unless those kids were attacking the israeli soldiers. If sharon is such a monster, why does he support moving some of the settlers? Granted he's not the best leader israel has had. Nor the most likely to bring peace but I think you are really demonizing him too much.

nah, he'll jsut teach him that whole races of people should be judged byby the actions of the few and treated as you would treat those few, aka intolerance
Once again one of you has accused me of hating all palestinians. How many times do I have to say that I only hate the terrorists, and their supporters. You know what? It's pointless to argue with someone who can't or won't listen. I have been civil through this whole debate. I have not resorted to putting words in other people's mouths, or calling them names. Unfortunately, many of you people don't have the same good manners. In conclusion, FUCK YOU!

If it were true that Israel only targeted the terrorists, I would agree with your sentiments. However, it's clear that the current government in Israel does not. The fact that it is building a wall - much of it on occupied Palastian terriotory, in controvention of UN resolutions. The USA keeps refusing to back any of these resolutions or to stop funding Israel's government. Israel knows the USA won't do this, so knows it can get away with abusing the Palastian's human rights.
It is this that unfortunately attracts Palastians to terrorism. It's deplorable, but given the situation they are up against, you can see why it happens.
That is sickening that people could say that. The Palestinian suicide bombers are ISlamic Fundamentalists, and they must be stopped. They are not killing innocent ISraelis because they are oppresed! They are killing them because they hate Jews. They want to drive Israel into the sea, and then set up an Islamic Fundamentalist Totalitarian Regime for their own enjoyment, while finishing off the rest of the Jews. It is so evil, that they can do this, and still get the benefit of the doubt from people.

Hah. Are you really that naive as to think Israeli military target only "terrorists"?

http://www.amanjordan.org/campaigns/palestinian%20women/palwomen8.htm

check that page out. The people in those pictures certainly doesnt look like terrorists to me.
I can't read arabic. I don't know where those pictures were from. Unless you can read arabic, you don't know either. Ok, one had a picture of a baby with a (I presume) bullet wound in his chest. Civillian casualties happen in urban combat. It doesn't prove that he was intentionally killed by an israeli. Without captions on the pictures that I can read, that page is worthless to me. Also, it's a proven fact that palestinian terrorists _do_ target women and children. They would get my sympathy if they only targeted government and military personell. Still folks like you try to excuse their actions. This thread is remarkably similar to beating my head against a wall. Just as productive too.

You are incredibly inhuman person. Hopefully you'll never have any children of your own.
Yep, I'm inhuman for saying that someone who stands in front of a tank in combat should know he is going to be run over. Meanwhile people who gun down women and children on their way to vote are acting out of compassion for their fellow man, right?

and you would be a terrorist...
I have no problem with fighting against the military. Just not against women and children. If the terrorists would target military assets I might sympathize with their cause. How many times do I have to say this before you get it?

The Jews (IDF) have targetted terrorists, and civilians are part of the resulting collateral damage.. correct?

Same philosophy the American military uses, heh..

During the past 57 years, no nation has been more harshly condemned by the world, no nation has seen so many UN resolutions critical of its actions, no nation has seeked the systematic extermination of an entire race, no nation has received as much funding by the USA, no nation has widely abused an unfortunate part of its race's history, no nation has created nukes yet refused to declare their existence, no nation has displaced more people, no nation has been involved in successive and very intense raids and land-grabs, no nation has vowed that, if attacked, it would take down the world with it.. more than Israel..

Those are facts.. you can look them up yourself.. in any source..
The UN is a lot like 150 cannibals and 12 civilised people taking a vote on what's for dinner. I have little faith in an institution where Libia heads up the human rights division.

Damn it, people. Stop making up statistics.
79% of all statistics are made up, 49% of all people know that!

Of course it changed it. It amplified it. It didn't start it.

If this is the case, then you should say that the current intifada started in 1946.

No, prior to late september 2000 there was for the most part peace, punctuated as usual by conflict between the I.D.F. and the terrorists, the occassional bombing and resultant bulldozings, more-or-less peaceful protests handled by less than lethal oppression, etc. To call that intifada is not merely an exaggeration, it is totally wrong. There may have been an upsurge of bombing attempts during the latter days of the failed peace talks but for most people it was business as usual.

I don't want to sound like an ass, but again, I WAS THERE. Unless you really care to say that the current intifada dates back to 1946, you really don't seem to know what you're talking about. I was there. One day Arabs and Jews and foreigners were living together in relative peace and harmony, making money and partying, and a few days later all the foreigners were fleeing and half the Jews and all of the Arabs that were willing to say anything out loud wanted eachother dead. All the CNN articles on the web will not come close to real life experience. I was there, and it happened like I said it did.

I simply don't beleive that israel intentionaly targeted kids with sniper rifles. Not unless those kids were attacking the israeli soldiers. If sharon is such a monster, why does he support moving some of the settlers? Granted he's not the best leader israel has had. Nor the most likely to bring peace but I think you are really demonizing him too much.

I would maybe like to not believe it myself, but since the start of the war was predicted to me, to the day, a month and a half ahead of time based on the word of members of the Zionist underground, I find it impossible to disbelieve it. You have no reason to believe me, but it is the truth.

As far as people accusing you of hating all Palestinians, have another look at the title you chose for this thread before you start complaining.

Excuse me Joey P but there are a few questions I need to ask you.
Who is to say that cannibals don't know what they're doing? In many cases cannibals are superior in grey areas than 'civilized' people. Besides how many civilized nations have done uncivilized acts? Look at America and Israel.

Anyway back to the main discussion... We should care because:
1.)They're human
2.)If it was you, you'd want help
3.)If you turn your back on one in need of help what is to stop you from ignoring two or three or four? When will a problem suit your sensiblities enough for you to provide aid?

As far as the Israeli only targeting terrorists that's a lie. They have actually killed many innocent Palestinians and quite a few international protestors including a couple of Americans. One American girl in particular was run down by a tank and nothing was made of it. Instead the story recieved no play while the Iraq conflict was made the most of.

If America would butt out of the coflict or provide equal support to Palestian then maybe this problem could be settled. I don't know I just know I don't approve of it at all.

If this is the case, then you should say that the current intifada started in 1946.

No, prior to late september 2000 there was for the most part peace, punctuated as usual by conflict between the I.D.F. and the terrorists, the occassional bombing and resultant bulldozings, more-or-less peaceful protests handled by less than lethal oppression, etc. To call that intifada is not merely an exaggeration, it is totally wrong. There may have been an upsurge of bombing attempts during the latter days of the failed peace talks but for most people it was business as usual.

I don't want to sound like an ass, but again, I WAS THERE. Unless you really care to say that the current intifada dates back to 1946, you really don't seem to know what you're talking about. I was there. One day Arabs and Jews and foreigners were living together in relative peace and harmony, making money and partying, and a few days later all the foreigners were fleeing and half the Jews and all of the Arabs that were willing to say anything out loud wanted eachother dead. All the CNN articles on the web will not come close to real life experience. I was there, and it happened like I said it did.



I would maybe like to not believe it myself, but since the start of the war was predicted to me, to the day, a month and a half ahead of time based on the word of members of the Zionist underground, I find it impossible to disbelieve it. You have no reason to believe me, but it is the truth.

As far as people accusing you of hating all Palestinians, have another look at the title you chose for this thread before you start complaining.
Not caring about them is not the same as hating them. I sympathize with the peacefull few. I cannot sympathize with the murderers and their supporters. Those two groups combined are the majority.

Excuse me Joey P but there are a few questions I need to ask you.
Who is to say that cannibals don't know what they're doing? In many cases cannibals are superior in grey areas than 'civilized' people. Besides how many civilized nations have done uncivilized acts? Look at America and Israel.

Anyway back to the main discussion... We should care because:
1.)They're human
2.)If it was you, you'd want help
3.)If you turn your back on one in need of help what is to stop you from ignoring two or three or four? When will a problem suit your sensiblities enough for you to provide aid?

As far as the Israeli only targeting terrorists that's a lie. They have actually killed many innocent Palestinians and quite a few international protestors including a couple of Americans. One American girl in particular was run down by a tank and nothing was made of it. Instead the story recieved no play while the Iraq conflict was made the most of.

If America would butt out of the coflict or provide equal support to Palestian then maybe this problem could be settled. I don't know I just know I don't approve of it at all.
Standing in front of a tank is suicide. She was encouraged to kill herself by her palestinian radical "friends". Just like they encourage young kids to wear a semtex vest and blow up a bus.

If israel is purposely targeting civillians, how come we don't hear about it in the press? We only hear about collateral damage. There are plenty of foreign correspondants in Israel. Are you of the opinion that the jews control the media?

79% of all statistics are made up, 49% of all people know that!

There are two kinds of people in the world: those who categorize people, and those who don't.

There are three kinds of people in the world: those who can count, and those who can't.

There are two kinds of people in the world: those with good concentration and short term memory.

There are two kinds of people in the world: those who believe that our problems can be solved by changing &/or getting rid of certain types of people, and those who don't. We'll all be far better off once we get around to identifying people of the first type, and then we can work on the final solution.

Not caring about them is not the same as hating them. I sympathize with the peacefull few. I cannot sympathize with the murderers and their supporters. Those two groups combined are the majority.

No, the majority of Palestinians are common peaceful citizens who are afraid of being killed by the murderers on either side of the conflict.

Standing in front of a tank is suicide. She was encouraged to kill herself by her palestinian radical "friends". Just like they encourage young kids to wear a semtex vest and blow up a bus.
real world to joey p, real world to joey p, come in joey p, we are losing you

in america we have peaceful protests, people can stand in front of stuff here because people here can't just go around killing people in a peaceful protest, there is no reason to run down a person in a tank, NONE.

here's how we fix this problem, take everyone that thinks like joey in the whole world, pick an island in the south pacific, send their asses there. no more problems

real world to joey p, real world to joey p, come in joey p, we are losing you

in america we have peaceful protests, people can stand in front of stuff here because people here can't just go around killing people in a peaceful protest, there is no reason to run down a person in a tank, NONE.

here's how we fix this problem, take everyone that thinks like joey in the whole world, pick an island in the south pacific, send their asses there. no more problems
In america there isn't a shooting war going on. Peacefull protests are fine, but staging one in the middle of a war zone is suicide. They could protest in Tel Aviv or Jerusalem. Tie up traffic. Make the police use rubber bullets and tear gas while you don't resist. That's how you get sympathy and outside help.

real world to joey p, real world to joey p, come in joey p, we are losing you

in america we have peaceful protests, people can stand in front of stuff here because people here can't just go around killing people in a peaceful protest, there is no reason to run down a person in a tank, NONE.

here's how we fix this problem, take everyone that thinks like joey in the whole world, pick an island in the south pacific, send their asses there. no more problems
If the island has a good seafood restaurant, nice fishing, and a few decent pubs, I'll go willingly. When can I expect my plane ticket?

real world to joey p, real world to joey p, come in joey p, we are losing you

in america we have peaceful protests, people can stand in front of stuff here because people here can't just go around killing people in a peaceful protest, there is no reason to run down a person in a tank, NONE.

here's how we fix this problem, take everyone that thinks like joey in the whole world, pick an island in the south pacific, send their asses there. no more problems

But what if they stand in front of your vehicles? Do you just stop so that their friends can fire an R.P.G. at you?

I don't want to sound like an ass, but again, I WAS THERE. Unless you really care to say that the current intifada dates back to 1946, you really don't seem to know what you're talking about. I was there. One day Arabs and Jews and foreigners were living together in relative peace and harmony, making money and partying, and a few days later all the foreigners were fleeing and half the Jews and all of the Arabs that were willing to say anything out loud wanted eachother dead. All the CNN articles on the web will not come close to real life experience. I was there, and it happened like I said it did.
To tell you the truth, I couldn't care if you were there or in Tokyo.

To tell you the truth, I couldn't care if you were there or in Tokyo.

To tell you the truth if we were talking about something that happened in Tokyo and you told me that you had lived there when it happened, I would actually put more stock in what you have to say than I would in whatever "objective news" articles I could google up.

But that's just me. :)

If the island has a good seafood restaurant, nice fishing, and a few decent pubs, I'll go willingly. When can I expect my plane ticket?
when you vote me for president

But what if they stand in front of your vehicles? Do you just stop so that their friends can fire an R.P.G. at you?
we make the assumption again that there is ALWAYS some one standing around with an rpg ready to shoot at you

i just looked it up right quick

http://www.ccmep.org/2003_articles/Palestine/031603_american_woman_peace_activist_ki.htm

excert: "Witnesses said Rachel Corrie, 23, from Olympia, Washington, was trying to stop the bulldozer from tearing down a building in the Rafah refugee camp, witnesses said, when she was run over. She was taken to Najar hospital in Rafah, where she died, said Dr. Ali Moussa, a hospital administrator"

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=590
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/112840_protestor17.shtml

we make the assumption again that there is ALWAYS some one standing around with an rpg ready to shoot at you

i just looked it up right quick

http://www.ccmep.org/2003_articles/Palestine/031603_american_woman_peace_activist_ki.htm

excert: "Witnesses said Rachel Corrie, 23, from Olympia, Washington, was trying to stop the bulldozer from tearing down a building in the Rafah refugee camp, witnesses said, when she was run over. She was taken to Najar hospital in Rafah, where she died, said Dr. Ali Moussa, a hospital administrator"

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=590
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/112840_protestor17.shtml

OK but I'm talking about when you go to round up Joey P and his ilk. What do you do when they lie down in the road? Do you stop? And when a hail of thrown rocks rains down upon you, you just get back in your prison vans and wait, since now you have people lying down in front of and behind you?

And still no response to my posts.

Why? I asked for proof.

you ask for proof that the people executed by israel were innocent. well, it is widely considered that the only proof of innocence is a fair trial, in which everyone is considered innocent until proven guilty. as the "terrorists" shot dead by israeli helicopters did not have a chance to be tried, you must admit that they were killed as innocent men.

Yep, I'm inhuman for saying that someone who stands in front of a tank in combat should know he is going to be run over. Meanwhile people who gun down women and children on their way to vote are acting out of compassion for their fellow man, right?


Why is it worse to kill a woman than a man?

sexist.

OK but I'm talking about when you go to round up Joey P and his ilk. What do you do when they lie down in the road? Do you stop? And when a hail of thrown rocks rains down upon you, you just get back in your prison vans and wait, since now you have people lying down in front of and behind you?
well im rounding thjem up, if they lay down in the road, they are easier to find, stop the truck get out, pick his ass up, put him in the back, tie him down so he cant hop out
there are non lethal bullets, and darts, man gotta love darts

Why is it worse to kill a woman than a man?

sexist.
Yep, I'm sexist. It's actually quite likely that placing a higher value on the lives of females is in our genes. Populations that protected breeding-age females and children probably survived better than those that didn't. Even in misogynistic cultures like those based on islam a threat to their women will enrage them more than a threat to a man.

Some studies show that men when near crying babies get raised levels of adrenaline.
I do not personally care if you kill a woman any more then a man.
However I cant deny that I find the killers of women to be weak and cowardly.
The killers of children genuinely enrage me.

Some studies show that men when near crying babies get raised levels of adrenaline.
I do not personally care if you kill a woman any more then a man.
However I cant deny that I find the killers of women to be weak and cowardly.
The killers of children genuinely enrage me.
Normal human reaction.

How about those pesky Palestinians and Jordon?

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~samuel/september.html

Yep, I'm sexist. It's actually quite likely that placing a higher value on the lives of females is in our genes. Populations that protected breeding-age females and children probably survived better than those that didn't. Even in misogynistic cultures like those based on islam a threat to their women will enrage them more than a threat to a man.
you forgot the fact your racist

its ok for tanks and bulldozers to run down women and children doing nothing but its not ok for them to be blown up as collateral

you forgot the fact your racist

its ok for tanks and bulldozers to run down women and children doing nothing but its not ok for them to be blown up as collateral
How am I racist? I haven't condemned any race ever on this thread or in this forum.

How am I racist? I haven't condemned any race ever on this thread or in this forum.
anti-palestinian

There are two kinds of people in the world: those who categorize people, and those who don't.

There are three kinds of people in the world: those who can count, and those who can't.

There are two kinds of people in the world: those with good concentration and short term memory.



there are 10 kinds of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who dont

the middle east conflict is way too complicated to say its one sides fault. both sides have more than enough grievances to last them another hundred years.

that is why we MUST care about the palestinians or there will never be an end to it. all sides must be treated fairly. all sides must be satisfied with the settlement.

nothing less will bring peace to the middle east

well im rounding thjem up, if they lay down in the road, they are easier to find, stop the truck get out, pick his ass up, put him in the back, tie him down so he cant hop out
there are non lethal bullets, and darts, man gotta love darts

And when you are out of the truck, his friends can shoot you.

And when you are out of the truck, his friends can shoot you.
UNFOUNDED ASSUMPTIONS ALERT, UNFOUNDED ASSUMPTION ALERT

UNFOUNDED ASSUMPTIONS ALERT, UNFOUNDED ASSUMPTION ALERT

Just as unfounded as the assumption they won't. Just as unfounded as the assumption they won't.

NEWS FLASH: Palestinian terrorists use their children as weapons and as diversions, sending them to die so they can call them martyrs. Among these strategies is having them stand in front of the vehicles of I.D.F. soldiers, to get them to stop so their daddies can shoot at them.

Protesters are also used as "martyrs", persuaded to lie down in front of tanks and bulldozers while jaded I.D.F. drivers who see all of the pro-Palestinian side as terrorists follow orders to continue. The protesters themselves could stand up at any time before they get run over, so their "martyrdom" is more properly called suicide.

ONE LAST THING: aside from the murderers that I mentioned, when palestinian noncombatants get killed because they were too near a terrorist or military target are indeed collateral damage, no matter how easily they could have been avoided. When israeli noncombatants get killed because they were in a bus or a restaraunt where a terrorist blew himself up, they are the primary targets.

When India wanted freedom from the British empire, Ghandi showed them how to do it peacefully.

Until World War 2, when he deliberately incited mass riots and hinted at Churchill that he would lead his people to either be neutral or help the Japanese in the coming conflicts.

Funny how people keep forgetting that.

India is a well respected nation now.

Ho ho.

Same goes for Russia. India's barely developing a middle class (and that's mainly due to outsourcing,) and most of Russia's constantly fighting the pull of becoming a third world nation.

I agree that the deliberate targetting of civilians should be out of bounds and that the Palestinians have shown consistently that the majority of their population is willing to support it. I also think that demolishing homes and forcing a mass migration is also illegal, but then the Geneva conventions only apply when you're a third world nation or the loser in a conflict. Apparently.

If Israel really wanted to iflict casualties on the palestinian population, they could evicerate it with their military. No other nations would intervene because Israel has nuclear weapons. Arabs don't, and Europe doesn't care enough. Israel is _clearly_ going easy on the palestinians.
Reminds me somewhat of the arguments used to justify acts in the Spanish Civil war. In fact thats almost word for word the Caudillo's defense.

Just as unfounded as the assumption they won't. Just as unfounded as the assumption they won't.

NEWS FLASH: Palestinian terrorists use their children as weapons and as diversions, sending them to die so they can call them martyrs. Among these strategies is having them stand in front of the vehicles of I.D.F. soldiers, to get them to stop so their daddies can shoot at them.

Protesters are also used as "martyrs", persuaded to lie down in front of tanks and bulldozers while jaded I.D.F. drivers who see all of the pro-Palestinian side as terrorists follow orders to continue. The protesters themselves could stand up at any time before they get run over, so their "martyrdom" is more properly called suicide.

ONE LAST THING: aside from the murderers that I mentioned, when palestinian noncombatants get killed because they were too near a terrorist or military target are indeed collateral damage, no matter how easily they could have been avoided. When israeli noncombatants get killed because they were in a bus or a restaraunt where a terrorist blew himself up, they are the primary targets.

wern't you arguing gandhi or MLK was a terrorist too? or was that some one else and you agreed, if i recall right then your opinion is obviously biased torwards conspiracy

wern't you arguing gandhi or MLK was a terrorist too? or was that some one else and you agreed, if i recall right then your opinion is obviously biased torwards conspiracy

No, and also no. Is your scrolling broken? Jeeze, that Ghandi thing is just two posts down from yours :rolleyes:

No, and also no. Is your scrolling broken?
you would seem that you would agree, you can always assume the worst, but remember this isnt palestine, joey and many like him arnt the terrorists like those he condemns, though i wouldnt really put it past him, and who is going to object to being shipped to the south pacific, did i mention you mgiht want to bring some OFF and a bug net

you would seem that you would agree, you can always assume the worst, but remember this isnt palestine, joey and many like him arnt the terrorists like those he condemns, though i wouldnt really put it past him, and who is going to object to being shipped to the south pacific, did i mention you mgiht want to bring some OFF and a bug net

Nice "apology". I will say this again: do not presume my positions or anything about whether or not I agree with what anyone else has said. Instead, save your Coke-or-Pepsi political strategy for someone willing to bite.

And at the risk of presumptiveness myself, don't assume anything about what Joey believes. "I wouldn't put it past him" is about the weakest argument I have ever seen here.

Sure, they are opressed, but their actions make it impossible for me to be sympathetic toward them. When India wanted freedom from the British empire, Ghandi showed them how to do it peacefully. India is a well respected nation now. When Blacks in the USA were horribly opressed Dr. Martin Luther King, Malcom X and others led the fight for equality (in most cases through peaceful means) When the people of Russia had had enough of the czar and wanted some stake in their government, they fought against the military and the oppressors to take their nation. These are respectable actions (although I don't agree with communism).
Palestinians seem to think blowing up a bus full of school children, and shooting a family of four makes them heroes. Meanwhile, the Israelis try to target only the terrorists, and reduce civilian casualties in the Palestinian territioris.

The fact is, making generalizations about a whole group of people is ALWAYS going to be inaccurate. The actions of Palestinian militants are indeed despicable, although, to a certain degree, one could say the same of many actions taken by the Israeli military (and by Israeli settlers who are rarely, if ever, arrested, convicted, or punished).

Furthermore, there are indeed some Palestinians who believe in peace and nonviolence. Unfortunately, they are not the ones who receive much press.

http://www.jrep.com/Palaffairs/Article-0.html

http://www.mifkad.org.il/eng/HotNews.asp