NationStates Jolt Archive

Right as my Plato and Aristotle thread has gone (sniff) i will start a new debate. Ok then. . . um. . . how about the Augustinian theodicy versus the Irenaen theodicy.

Quick explanation - a theodicy is something that attempts to explain the fact that god is omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevalent yet still allows evil to exist.

The Irenaen theodicy - basic outline

-Humans are imperfect
-we can grow to be perfect
-We need free-will to grow to be perfect
-Evil helps us to grow, teaches us compassion, love etc
-Everyone goes to heaven eventually once we have become perfect

The Augustinian theodicy - basic outline

-Humans were created perfect
-Evil is not an entity in itself it is a privation. It happens when something becomes less than it should be.
-Evil came about through the fall
-natural evil is caused by fallen angels
-can only be saved through Jesus

Ok, any ideas on which people believe in or prefer or anyone who has any other theodicies to discuss?

The Irenean one sounds more fitting. I don't see newborn babies as being perfect, nor babies in general. Although really, as an atheist slash agnostic I don't need a justification for God to exist, as I in fact dont need God to exist.

I find both of them to sound like a bunch of Bull-plop.

Is there any theodicidy that explains whyn it should be that theres an infinitely good god who allows evil to exist, as opposed to an infinitely evil god which allows good to exist?

Fair enough any reasons why? as in proper reasons?

Good point Spoffin, thats one of David Humes criticisms of these theodicies

Good point Spoffin, thats one of David Humes criticisms of these theodicies
Smart man David Hume. I also believe he could out consume Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel, but thats not especially relevant to this topic

What about Kant and his ideas on God? thats similar to the Irenaen theodicy right?

Kinda, Ok i'll outline Kant....

Right, Kant said that we work out how to act morally through the 'categorical imperative' or natural law. There were three parts to this:-

1. Universal Law - Do not act on any principal that cannot be universalised. e.g Do not lie even if it will save someone's life

2. Always treat people as ends in themselves. No one can be used as a means to an end. No human can exploit or enslave another.

3. Act as if you live in a kingdom of ends. Act as if everyone obeyed the laws. You cannot create maxims such as 'I may lie as others lie'.

God gives us reason to work out the laws. We aim for the Summum Bonum or highest good which will lead us to God.

The last part is similar to the Irenaen theodicy I guess cos it says that our ultimate aim and purpose is to be with god.

Ah, well i do have some idea what I'm talking about. Thats a first!